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Eric the Red
07-10-2011, 05:26 PM
The starting lineups for the Futures Game in Phoenix. I'm looking forward to watching Alonso and Mesoraco.

USA
1. 2B: Jason Kipnis, CLE
2. SS: Manny Machado, BAL
3. LF: Bryce Harper, WAS
4. 1B: Paul Goldschmidt, ARI
5. C: Devin Mesoraco, CIN
6. 3B: Will Middlebrooks, BOS
7. DH: James Darnell, SD
8. RF: Wil Myers, KC
9. CF: Gary Brown, SF

LHP: Tyler Skaggs, ARI


World
1. CF, Sterling Marte, PIT
2. 2B, Jose Altuve, HOU
3. 1B, Yonder Alonso, CIN
4. DH, Dayan Viciedo, CWS
5. 3B, Alex Liddi, SEA
6. RF, Alfredo Silverio, LAD
7. LF, Chih-Hsien Chiang, BOS
8. C, Wilin Rosario, COL
9. SS, Hak-Ju Lee, TB

RHP: Julio Teheran, ATL

Grande Donkey
07-10-2011, 05:34 PM
Jim Bowden just said this about Mesoraco in an espn chat


Jim Bowden:
Mesoraco might just end up a 3-hole hitter...impressive kid

Eric the Red
07-10-2011, 05:42 PM
Jim Bowden just said this about Mesoraco in an espn chat

It's why I'd move Ramon as soon as possible if I'm Walt. His value will never be higher and should at least garner a decent prospect.

lollipopcurve
07-10-2011, 06:06 PM
Jim Bowden:
Mesoraco might just end up a 3-hole hitter...impressive kid

This is why the organization has to consider the idea of moving Mesoraco off catcher and letting Grandal play there.

Grande Donkey
07-10-2011, 06:13 PM
Alonso walked

Grande Donkey
07-10-2011, 06:26 PM
Mesoraco will lead off for Team USA the bottom half of the second.

Eric the Red
07-10-2011, 06:36 PM
Mesoraco lines a single to left field.

Grande Donkey
07-10-2011, 06:40 PM
Mesoraco lines a single to left field.Very nice base rip. Mes just scored on a fielders choice.

Eric the Red
07-10-2011, 06:49 PM
Mes with a nice play defensively on the swinging bunt down the first base line by Sterling Marte. He raced out from behind the plate, bare handed the ball and fired a strike to first base.

Eric the Red
07-10-2011, 06:55 PM
Yonder Alonso draws a walk against Cards prospect Shelby Miller. It was his second walk in as many plate appearances.

Eric the Red
07-10-2011, 07:38 PM
Drew Pomeranz of the Indians strikes out Alonso on three pitches in Yonder's third plate appearance.

HeatherC1212
07-10-2011, 11:14 PM
Nice to see our two Reds prospects doing well on national TV. :)

Superdude
07-10-2011, 11:19 PM
This is why the organization has to consider the idea of moving Mesoraco off catcher and letting Grandal play there.

Because Mesoraco's awesome, we should move him off catcher?

HokieRed
07-10-2011, 11:25 PM
Because Mesoraco's awesome, we should move him off catcher?

To protect his ability to hit as a 3 hitter.

NorrisHopper30
07-10-2011, 11:29 PM
Jim Bowden just said this about Mesoraco in an espn chat

Bowden said that? Trade Mesoraco now :laugh:

mdccclxix
07-11-2011, 02:49 AM
This is why the organization has to consider the idea of moving Mesoraco off catcher and letting Grandal play there.

I like your thinking there...although I think Mez deserves a shot to parlay his efforts to improve his defense into an MLB role for a few years.

mdccclxix
07-11-2011, 02:50 AM
Bowden said that? Trade Mesoraco now :laugh:

Yeah, I wish he'd stop hovering the Reds. It's unhealthy.

BakoTheTako
07-11-2011, 06:36 AM
This is why the organization has to consider the idea of moving Mesoraco off catcher and letting Grandal play there.


Let him prove that he is a legit middle of the order hitter in the major leagues first. A few years catching is not going to ruin he career.

lollipopcurve
07-11-2011, 07:16 AM
Let him prove that he is a legit middle of the order hitter in the major leagues first. A few years catching is not going to ruin he career.

Sure -- no decision needs to be made until it's clear Grandal is ready.

HokieRed
07-11-2011, 08:19 AM
Sure -- no decision needs to be made until it's clear Grandal is ready.

A difficulty is with what Mes can play. I'm assuming 1b the's only thing he can play other than C. Is that right? If so, we run into the same problem--i.e. Votto--that we already have with Alonso. But of course that may take care of itself. One thing I like is your apparent enthusiasm for Grandal. It bothers me that he's always being mentioned in trades planned by RZers. I think he's a terrific prospect, who's made probably as much progress in his first year since being drafted as anybody in recent Reds history not named Leake.

partisan
07-11-2011, 11:52 AM
A difficulty is with what Mes can play. I'm assuming 1b the's only thing he can play other than C. Is that right? If so, we run into the same problem--i.e. Votto--that we already have with Alonso. But of course that may take care of itself. One thing I like is your apparent enthusiasm for Grandal. It bothers me that he's always being mentioned in trades planned by RZers. I think he's a terrific prospect, who's made probably as much progress in his first year since being drafted as anybody in recent Reds history not named Leake.

I'd be very disappointed if we traded Grandal anytime soon, I think he's going to have a strong major league career. The easy fix, although probably not feasible, is to teach one of these guys to play 3B since we have an abundance of talent behind the plate.

HokieRed
07-11-2011, 12:24 PM
I'd be very disappointed if we traded Grandal anytime soon, I think he's going to have a strong major league career. The easy fix, although probably not feasible, is to teach one of these guys to play 3B since we have an abundance of talent behind the plate.

Agree with you about Grandal but I don't think it's easy to teach anybody to play 3b.

Superdude
07-11-2011, 08:17 PM
I'd be very disappointed if we traded Grandal anytime soon, I think he's going to have a strong major league career. The easy fix, although probably not feasible, is to teach one of these guys to play 3B since we have an abundance of talent behind the plate.

Good hitting catchers are very rare. Good hitting third basemen with below average defense are not so rare. Trading Grandal isn't a knock on his future, it's just likely the means that we'll get the best value out of him.

mth123
07-12-2011, 01:36 AM
Moving one of these good hit, good field catchers to another position to shoehorn them onto the team is like painting over an original Picasso because the style doesn't fit your decor. Sell the Picasso and you can get all the "Dogs Playing Poker" prints you want (which is akin to what a good catcher becomes when his glove becomes a question mark at 3B and his offensive comparison pool is elevated to the 3B group).

lollipopcurve
07-12-2011, 07:35 AM
Moving one of these good hit, good field catchers to another position to shoehorn them onto the team is like painting over an original Picasso because the style doesn't fit your decor. Sell the Picasso and you can get all the "Dogs Playing Poker" prints you want (which is akin to what a good catcher becomes when his glove becomes a question mark at 3B and his offensive comparison pool is elevated to the 3B group).

For me, it comes down to an evaluation of the bats. Is Mesoraco a potential all-star bat? If the answer to that is yes (remember, you help his bat by moving him off catcher), AND you know Votto can't be extended beyond his current contract, then you have to consider moving Mesoraco to 1B (or LF) down the line and trading Votto instead. Simple as that. You bring talent to the team via what you get for Votto and what you save by dealing him. Chances are that's better talent than what you get by moving Mesoraco or Grandal.

Superdude
07-12-2011, 03:46 PM
For me, it comes down to an evaluation of the bats. Is Mesoraco a potential all-star bat? If the answer to that is yes (remember, you help his bat by moving him off catcher), AND you know Votto can't be extended beyond his current contract, then you have to consider moving Mesoraco to 1B (or LF) down the line and trading Votto instead. Simple as that. You bring talent to the team via what you get for Votto and what you save by dealing him. Chances are that's better talent than what you get by moving Mesoraco or Grandal.

Why would you move Mesoraco to first when we still have Alonso? We could move Grandal and Votto if that's what you wanted to do, and that would be a haul for the ages.

dougdirt
07-12-2011, 04:48 PM
Why would you move Mesoraco to first when we still have Alonso? We could move Grandal and Votto if that's what you wanted to do, and that would be a haul for the ages.

Well, you could then trade Alonso in a package now to get something else you need, keep Votto through 2013, then move Mesoraco to 1B and bring up Grandal to catch. If that is the route that you wanted to take.

mth123
07-12-2011, 07:17 PM
At 1B, these guys become just another guy (kind of like Alonso is now). At Catcher, they are special.

dougdirt
07-12-2011, 07:27 PM
At 1B, these guys become just another guy (kind of like Alonso is now). At Catcher, they are special.

I think that on a pure bat basis, Devin Mesoraco > Yonder Alonso. I think that Mesoraco has a legit .290 bat with 30 HR's if you take him off the catcher position and can play him every day. At catcher, you are taking about 100-125 PA away from him and he probably becomes a .280/20-25 guy. I don't see Grandal having the bat to play at first base.

lollipopcurve
07-14-2011, 09:12 AM
I think that on a pure bat basis, Devin Mesoraco > Yonder Alonso. I think that Mesoraco has a legit .290 bat with 30 HR's if you take him off the catcher position and can play him every day. At catcher, you are taking about 100-125 PA away from him and he probably becomes a .280/20-25 guy. I don't see Grandal having the bat to play at first base.

I agree with this in theory. Don't know about the exact numbers. Mesoraco may have a legit 1st base bat if you take him off catcher. Better than Alonso. And you have to accept the possibility that Alonso may be able to survive in LF, given all the time he's had out there.

Benihana
07-14-2011, 09:41 AM
The catcher "problem" is one to sort out two years from now, when you have more visibility into Votto's long-term status as well as Grandal's major league ETA. Unless of course you trade Grandal and/or Alonso before then for other pieces, which I'm fine with.

lollipopcurve
07-14-2011, 09:56 AM
The catcher "problem" is one to sort out two years from now, when you have more visibility into Votto's long-term status as well as Grandal's major league ETA. Unless of course you trade Grandal and/or Alonso before then for other pieces, which I'm fine with.

Two years is likely too late. The viability of Votto long-term, if Jocketty does not already understand what that is, will be clearer after Fielder and Pujols sign this offseason. After those guys are signed, and the zeros on their contracts are echoing around baseball, some obvious trade partners may emerge (losers in the Fielder/Pujols bidding). With 2 years left on his contract, Votto may be at his most marketable, and for a good return.

HokieRed
07-14-2011, 10:23 AM
Any chance Grandal can play LF? Frankly, if Votto's to go, and I think he will, I'd like to have Alonso, Mesoraco, and Grandal in the lineup.

mth123
07-14-2011, 11:29 AM
I'd rather keep Votto and Mes and deal Grandal and Alonso for some actual bonafide effective starting pitching. You can find guys to play other spots. I think a guy with a plus bat who can catch is very valuable and playing him at another spot simply erodes that value. I'd rather deal that full excess value for similar value at an area of need (and that might be other areas from time to time but is always the rotation).

lollipopcurve
07-14-2011, 11:54 AM
I'd rather keep Votto and Mes and deal Grandal and Alonso for some actual bonafide effective starting pitching. You can find guys to play other spots. I think a guy with a plus bat who can catch is very valuable and playing him at another spot simply erodes that value. I'd rather deal that full excess value for similar value at an area of need (and that might be other areas from time to time but is always the rotation).

You very well may be right. If the Reds can parlay Grandal and others into a #1 or #2 starter under control for at least 2 more years, it's arguably worth it. But it could also amount to a blight in the post-Votto years, assuming he leaves, especially if Alonso is sent packing too.

mth123
07-14-2011, 01:27 PM
You very well may be right. If the Reds can parlay Grandal and others into a #1 or #2 starter under control for at least 2 more years, it's arguably worth it. But it could also amount to a blight in the post-Votto years, assuming he leaves, especially if Alonso is sent packing too.

I think the future of Joey Votto is the key paradox here. I think the Reds need him to be "the guy" and no matter who they have to replace him with it won't be good enough. To keep him, I think the Reds really need to show they are commited to winning which IMO means dealing one of the catchers and Alonso. Of course, if he goes and those guys are dealt it could be back to the lato 90s for this team (an era that I hated almost as much as the lost decade.

Keep Alonso and the catchers and I think the Reds won't be able to fill thier needs to the level needed to win and Votto will walk in a self fulfilling prophecy. Deal those guys and go all in to win and maybe he'll stick around (though the lack of a safety net is a reason for being reluctant).

HokieRed
07-14-2011, 01:44 PM
My assumption, and I hope it proves to be wrong, is that the Reds will not be able to afford Joey Votto for the long term. If that's the case, the best move seems to me to keep Alonso, Mesoraco, and Grandal--if a way can be found to play all three at one time--and to move Votto at the most advantageous time. But, at this point, I've no reason to think one of Alonso, Mesoraco, or Grandal can play left, where one of them would have to play in order to get them all in the lineup. (I discount the possibility of one of them playing third). From what we've heard here on the Minor League board, it seems unlikely we can really think of Alonso in LF. Hence my question: can Grandal play it, assuming Mesoraco cannot?

mth123
07-14-2011, 01:56 PM
My assumption, and I hope it proves to be wrong, is that the Reds will not be able to afford Joey Votto for the long term. If that's the case, the best move seems to me to keep Alonso, Mesoraco, and Grandal--if a way can be found to play all three at one time--and to move Votto at the most advantageous time. But, at this point, I've no reason to think one of Alonso, Mesoraco, or Grandal can play left, where one of them would have to play in order to get them all in the lineup. (I discount the possibility of one of them playing third). From what we've heard here on the Minor League board, it seems unlikely we can really think of Alonso in LF. Hence my question: can Grandal play it, assuming Mesoraco cannot?

The Reds are going to be paying Votto $19 Million in 2013. To keep him around they really only need to bump him up a few Million annually (money that could be freed in the budget by avoiding giving several million to the likes of Renteria, Lewis and Gomes). The depth that the Reds are so touted for should be used to fill the bit parts to save millions on the fringes of the roster instead of trying to backfill for the centerpiece with unproven kids.

The issue with Votto isn't money IMO. The Reds can swing it. The issue is his willingness to stay. I think that is going to be determined by showing they'll go out and add what is needed to the team and IMO that means dealing the very guys we want to keep around as the safety net.

lollipopcurve
07-14-2011, 02:36 PM
The issue with Votto isn't money IMO. The Reds can swing it.

Not so fast there. When you're talking the kind of contract Votto is likely to command once he hits full-blown free agency, it's magnitudes larger than what he's getting now in total dollars. For a first baseman -- when there are a few good young bats that could take over that position already in the system? The issue, at that point, IS money.

Reds are mid-market at best. Probably closer to small. Unless they can get a discount from Votto, I don't think it makes sense for them to go outbidding the rest of major league baseball for a player for whom they have adequate replacements in-house.

I wish they'd gotten more years out of Votto on his current contract. I suppose there's an outside chance he will decide to help out the Reds with a team-friendly long-term deal at some point in the future, but my guess is that that ship has sailed.

Superdude
07-14-2011, 02:58 PM
My assumption, and I hope it proves to be wrong, is that the Reds will not be able to afford Joey Votto for the long term. If that's the case, the best move seems to me to keep Alonso, Mesoraco, and Grandal--if a way can be found to play all three at one time--and to move Votto at the most advantageous time. But, at this point, I've no reason to think one of Alonso, Mesoraco, or Grandal can play left, where one of them would have to play in order to get them all in the lineup. (I discount the possibility of one of them playing third). From what we've heard here on the Minor League board, it seems unlikely we can really think of Alonso in LF. Hence my question: can Grandal play it, assuming Mesoraco cannot?

Mesoraco probably has the speed to play left adequately. Grandal has the same thick lower half as Alonso though, so I don't like his chances. On top of that, I don't think Grandal's proven to have the bat to just move all over the field at will. He's possibly an above average to plus bat at catcher, but I don't think there's any reason to believe at this point that he'll have a better bat than Sappelt in two years.

Even if it is a marginal upgrade over what we have, there's just no reason to put Grandal in left field when tons of teams all over the league would be willing to pay up big for a young offensive catcher.

mth123
07-14-2011, 03:00 PM
Not so fast there. When you're talking the kind of contract Votto is likely to command once he hits full-blown free agency, it's magnitudes larger than what he's getting now in total dollars. For a first baseman -- when there are a few good young bats that could take over that position already in the system? The issue, at that point, IS money.

Reds are mid-market at best. Probably closer to small. Unless they can get a discount from Votto, I don't think it makes sense for them to go outbidding the rest of major league baseball for a player for whom they have adequate replacements in-house.

I wish they'd gotten more years out of Votto on his current contract. I suppose there's an outside chance he will decide to help out the Reds with a team-friendly long-term deal at some point in the future, but my guess is that that ship has sailed.

They can swing $19 Million in 2013. How much higher will he go annually? I'd say 6 for 150 looks like it would keep him through his productive years and that's just a matter of using the youth to fill the fringes of the roster at the minumum rather than giving that money to the Renterias, Lewises, Gomeses, Arredodnos and Cairos, etc. Add that to his salary slot in 2013 and he's in.