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View Full Version : What active players, age 32+, will deserve to be in the HOF?



RedsManRick
07-12-2011, 11:39 AM
First, let's just pass on the locks, the guys who could retire tomorrow and get in:

Position Players: Jeter, ARod, Chipper Jones, Pujols, Pudge Rodriguez
Pitchers: Mo Rivera

Then I looked for guys who accrued 40+ fWAR. That gives us this list of 22 players, 14 position players & 8 pitchers. The question is: Who deserves to get in to the HOF? That is to say, if you had a vote, and these guys careers play out the way you expect, which ones would you vote for?

FWIW, this came to mind when looking at Bobby Abreu's career stats. He's criminally underrated. He's had 12 straight years of 15 HR & 20 SB. I bet there aren't more than a half dozen other guys in MLB history who did that -- and probably not a dozen who did it non-consecutively.

-- EDIT --

I just realized I omitted Jim Thome, who would slot in below Manny in terms of WAR, and Jason Giambi, who would be below Ichro. I would vote yes on Thome, no on Giambi.

crazybob60
07-12-2011, 11:44 AM
I was just discussing this fact with one of my friends the other day, and I took the names away and when you look at the stat line of 2 guys and also take away the team accomplishments (WS titles) and fan accomplishments (?; All Star voting), these two active players are right there neck in neck in almost every single category. The two are Derek Jeter and Johnny Damon. Jeter is a first ballot guy, no doubt. Personally, I think Damon gets in, but it will be maybe later on after he has been on the ballot for quite some time. But if you look at his numbers...well. Not much difference.

RBA
07-12-2011, 11:48 AM
Do we set aside steroid/hgh use for this question?

RedsManRick
07-12-2011, 12:03 PM
Do we set aside steroid/hgh use for this question?

Completely up to you.

Personally, I go with the "era" argument. Every era had it's own advantages/disadvantages and dealt with cheaters in its own way. I judge the player in that context. If something is so important that we want to alter our history museum for it, the player probably should have been kicked out of the game. The museum is primarily for u, the honor for the player is secondary, and I don't see what is gained by having an incomplete record of the greatest performers/producers of the era.

That said, I'd prefer to see conversation outside of the steroid issue, which has been talked to death here and elsewhere.

top6
07-12-2011, 12:04 PM
First, let's just pass on the locks, the guys who could retire tomorrow and get in:

Position Players: Jeter, ARod, Chipper Jones, Pujols, Pudge Rodriguez
Pitchers: Mo Rivera


I think Ichiro is a lock if he retired today -- both in terms of "should he" and "would he."

If you give him a little "extra credit" for all the years he spent in Japan - which I think is appropriate under these unique circumstances - he is a shoe-in. But even if you don't do that, I don't see how you can keep him out.

RedsManRick
07-12-2011, 12:47 PM
I think Ichiro is a lock if he retired today -- both in terms of "should he" and "would he."

If you give him a little "extra credit" for all the years he spent in Japan - which I think is appropriate under these unique circumstances - he is a shoe-in. But even if you don't do that, I don't see how you can keep him out.

Based on his performance, I think it's debatable. FWIW, the list is in order of fWAR. He had a few elite skills, but if the name fo the game is actual run production, it's hard to be HOF caliber with virtual zero power. For the other guys, based on performance, there's no doubt.

I for one do not give any extra credit for what he accomplished in Japan any more than I'd give a guy "a little" extra credit for destroying AAA. It's a separate, inferior league. In Japan, Matt Murton is Barry Bonds.

I do consider the narrative, however. My basic criteria is this: if the story of the era from a historical perspective would be incomplete in your absence, you belong. The stats are a very good, but insufficient filter. What drives me nuts is when people try to use stats that are poor measures of production to argue for players who really only belong based on the narrative -- e.g. Jim Rice, Jack Morris.

top6
07-12-2011, 01:12 PM
Based on his performance, I think it's debatable. FWIW, the list is in order of fWAR. He had a few elite skills, but if the name fo the game is actual run production, it's hard to be HOF caliber with virtual zero power. For the other guys, based on performance, there's no doubt.

I for one do not give any extra credit for what he accomplished in Japan any more than I'd give a guy "a little" extra credit for destroying AAA. It's a separate, inferior league. In Japan, Matt Murton is Barry Bonds.

I do consider the narrative, however. My basic criteria is this: if the story of the era from a historical perspective would be incomplete in your absence, you belong. The stats are a very good, but insufficient filter. What drives me nuts is when people try to use stats that are poor measures of production to argue for players who really only belong based on the narrative -- e.g. Jim Rice, Jack Morris.

I don't necessarily disagree with your statistical analysis, and I agree Ichiro is probably overrated a little, but ultimately he has made the All Star team and won a Gold Glove every year he's played, will have more than 2500 hits in a very short amount of time, and also was the first Japanese player to succeed in the majors and was something of a cultural phenomenon. Unless the Hall of Fame should be based only on stats, I don't see how you can keep him out. He was a dominant figure in the game for over a decade.

Obviously, if he gets to 3000 hits, it won't matter what either of us think, he'll be a first-ballot guy.

RedsBaron
07-12-2011, 01:13 PM
I only voted for four guys on the ballot: Vlad, Halladay, Rolen and Ichiro. That doesn't mean that several of the other guys listed won't make the HOF. If I took the time to research everyone listed I might very well favor the induction of other players who were listed, but those four were the guys who jumped out at me as deserving the HOF even if their careers ended tomorrow.

RedsBaron
07-12-2011, 01:16 PM
I don't necessarily disagree with your statistical analysis, and I agree Ichiro is probably overrated a little, but ultimately he has made the All Star team and won a Gold Glove every year he's played, will have more than 2500 hits in a very short amount of time, and also was the first Japanese player to succeed in the majors and was something of a cultural phenomenon. Unless the Hall of Fame should be based only on stats, I don't see how you can keep him out. He was a dominant figure in the game for over a decade.

Obviously, if he gets to 3000 hits, it won't matter what either of us think, he'll be a first-ballot guy.

While I have alwys believed that Ichiro was overrated, his HOF Monitor Score is 206, more than twice the 100 HOF Monitor Score of the average member of the HOF. He is a lock to be inducted, probably on the first ballot, so long as he avoids scandal.

RedsManRick
07-12-2011, 01:22 PM
I don't necessarily disagree with your statistical analysis, and I agree Ichiro is probably overrated a little, but ultimately he has made the All Star team and won a Gold Glove every year he's played, will have more than 2500 hits in a very short amount of time, and also was the first Japanese player to succeed in the majors and was something of a cultural phenomenon. Unless the Hall of Fame should be based only on stats, I don't see how you can keep him out. He was a dominant figure in the game for over a decade.

Obviously, if he gets to 3000 hits, it won't matter what either of us think, he'll be a first-ballot guy.

Don't get me wrong. I agree. He's an easy yes -- based on being a very good player with a stellar narrative. But even the All-Star team is a popularity contest and only roughly correlates with production. If he put up the same stats but were from Kansas, would he have made all those all-star teams?

Hits are just hits and Ichiro is probably the greatest singles hitter of the era. But he's merely good at getting on base and mediocre at slugging. He's simply not an elite offensive player. From a statistical point of view, he's a borderline guy. He's a less productive player than, say, Tim Raines who is deserving but struggling to get support. But from a narrative perspective, he's the opposite of Raines.

So, yeah, he's a Yes for me and an absolute shoo-in from a "what will happen" perspective. Voters LOVE extreme skill sets and unique narratives. We just shouldn't conflate overall place in the game's history with his on-field value. If he were a white kid from a suburb who killed AAA until he was 26 and we traded in a good chunk of his bases-empty infield singles for walks, we probably wouldn't be including him.

bucksfan2
07-12-2011, 02:40 PM
The toughest two for me were Rollins and Andruw Jones.

As for Andruw Jones 5 years ago he was a mortal lock for the HOF. He was the premier CF in the game. You would have thought that heading into 2007 as a 30 year old Jones would have had a chance to be considered as one of the better OF in baseball history. Then all of a sudden he got fat, out of shape, and dropped off a cliff. But to me you reward a guy great over the course of 10 years don't you?

I went with Jones, Vlad, Berkman, CC, Halladay, and forgot to check Ichiro.
After looking at Jimmy Rollins offensive stats he defiantly isn't a HOF. He was an ok offensive player but really only had one good offensive season. His defense was good but not good enough to make up for his offensive inefficiencies. I do wonder if that MVP, WS Ring (s), and playing in a large market will get him in.

RedsManRick
07-12-2011, 02:54 PM
The toughest two for me were Rollins and Andruw Jones.

As for Andruw Jones 5 years ago he was a mortal lock for the HOF. He was the premier CF in the game. You would have thought that heading into 2007 as a 30 year old Jones would have had a chance to be considered as one of the better OF in baseball history. Then all of a sudden he got fat, out of shape, and dropped off a cliff. But to me you reward a guy great over the course of 10 years don't you?

I think people forget just how awesome of a CF he was, as in, one of the very best of all-time. For me, he's a HOF. But given how much of that relies on your opinion of his defense and peak vs. consistency, I can understand why many people would vote no.

Dan
07-12-2011, 02:59 PM
Hits are just hits and Ichiro is probably the greatest singles hitter of the era. But he's merely good at getting on base and mediocre at slugging. He's simply not an elite offensive player. From a statistical point of view, he's a borderline guy. He's a less productive player than, say, Tim Raines who is deserving but struggling to get support. But from a narrative perspective, he's the opposite of Raines.

How does Ichiro's defense factor into the equation? He's won a gold glove every year he's been in the majors, and has one of the most feared arms in the AL.

REDREAD
07-12-2011, 03:02 PM
Well, lots of good points here.

I am the only one that voted for Moyer.. I figure that he is one of these guys that just played long enough to get in.. If you let in guys like Phil Neikro, Sutton, etc.. guys that were never really dominate but played a long time.. if that's the standard, then Moyer gets in, in my opinion..

wolfboy
07-12-2011, 03:11 PM
No Jim Thome? Is that because he's a DH? (I saw the note about position players v. pitchers).

RedsManRick
07-12-2011, 04:15 PM
How does Ichiro's defense factor into the equation? He's won a gold glove every year he's been in the majors, and has one of the most feared arms in the AL.

It definitely factors in -- though Gold Gloves are hardly a reliable way to get at it. Ask Jeter or Rafael Palmiero. As an overall measure of on-field production, including base-running defense, I've chosen Fangraphs WAR. And by career WAR, Ichiro is right there with Adrian Beltre, who has received a grand total of zero votes and is similarly a player with a lot of defensive value in that WAR total. You could also look at Andruw Jones as a guy in that vein (though Jones provided much more defensive value per fWAR).

BuckeyeRedleg
07-12-2011, 04:40 PM
My picks:

Rolen - only 12 third basemen in HOF (least of any position).

Manny - 2nd greatest RH hitter of all time (Pujols).

Helton - numbers inflated by Coors, but 13th all-time in OBP. .970+ career OPS.

Vlad - another year or two and he should be a lock (if not already).

Berkman - my one stretch. Without this season I would have said no, but if he can put up a few more decent years he might be in. Carreer OPS+ of 146. Helton's is 136. Helton has more counting stats due to playing longer.

Ichiro - lock.

Damon - surprised he doen't have more votes. 3000 hits gets you in and he's two years away. Only 3 active players have more SB's.

Halladay - freak.

Sabathia - Quite possibly the next (and last pitcher for a while) to get 300 wins.

Brutus
07-12-2011, 04:53 PM
I can't believe Manny has so few votes. He's the best RHH of his generation (at least prior to Pujols' arrival) and one of the best RHH ever. I realize there's the steroid issue, but man... can't believe he has so few votes.

RedsManRick
07-12-2011, 05:09 PM
No Jim Thome? Is that because he's a DH? (I saw the note about position players v. pitchers).

Oversight. He belongs on the list. See the note in my original post.

Tim Hudson should be on the list too, not that anybody would vote for him. That's what I get for posting when i should be working...

RBA
07-12-2011, 05:19 PM
No Juan Castro?

Oh, he just retired, so he is no longer active.

AtomicDumpling
07-12-2011, 05:42 PM
I voted for these guys:

Scott Rolen: His offensive stats are probably not quite HOF-worthy, but his tremendous defense and the fact he is a hard-nosed gamer who "plays the game the right way" should mean he deserves to be in the HOF.

Manny Ramirez: He is a borderline guy in my opinion. His stats are fantastic without question. However he has been busted twice for cheating with PEDs and I would bet he was one of the heaviest steroid cheaters throughout his career.

Todd Helton: Yes his numbers were inflated for a few years at pre-humidor Coors Field, but even after taking that into consideration he was a great hitter for a long time. He is not a slam dunk but I think he deserves to be in the HOF.

Vladimir Guerrero: Great natural hitter. Hit for power and average. Great arm in right field.

Ichiro Suzuki: Possibly the most overrated player of this generation. Great batting average, hit totals and stolen bases but didn't really produce that many runs and very poor power numbers. Good hitter but nowhere near a great hitter. His defense and level of fame put him over the threshold though, so I voted for him.

Roy Halladay: One of the all time great pitchers. Too bad he played most of his career in Canada or he would be a mega-star.

CC Sabathia: Technically not eligible for this list since he is only 30 years old, although it seems like he has been around forever. He has been dominant at times and has played for good teams. His numbers are not great, but by the time he retires he will have HOF-worthy totals for wins and strikeouts.

Andruw Jones and Johan Santana were dominant players for awhile, but not long enough for me to vote for them. Jamie Moyer has some big totals but only because he played for decades -- he was never anywhere near a great pitcher and usually wasn't even a good one. Johnny Damon was a good player but not a great one no matter how many hits he ends up with. Abreu and Berkman might squeak in to the HOF if they can stay on the field until about age 40 to generate some more stats.

camisadelgolf
07-12-2011, 06:37 PM
Sabathia's only 30 (soon to be 31).

Joseph
07-12-2011, 06:55 PM
I still go back to what ol' Jim Kaat used to say, if there's a Hall of Very Good, some of these guys belong in, most however do not.

Halladay and Ichiro are the only two Hall of Famers on this list.

Manny could have been, but he'll never be voted in. He left baseball in disgrace and as all us Rose fans know, you don't embarrass the game and end up in the hall. Arod won't get in. Barry Bonds won't get in. Mac won't get in. Steroids is a nail in the coffin for Hall of Fame.

We have a hall of fame without the leading hitter, the leading home run hitter and several members of the top ten of all time in home runs. Cheating cheating cheating. There's nothing worth honoring about that.

mth123
07-12-2011, 07:55 PM
Manny, Vlad, Ichiro, Halladay and Sabathia. I could be swayed on Rolen, but left him off.

Red in Chicago
07-12-2011, 08:05 PM
vlad, roy and cc for me...

ichiro will get in, but would never get my vote...

Stephenk29
07-12-2011, 08:21 PM
As liberal as the Hall has been Ichiro will be a no doubter of course. However, I see him as rather justified. I think his numbers are impressive no matter how you would like to add in some of the metrics.

MikeThierry
07-12-2011, 09:09 PM
I think Berkman being a switch hitter will actually help him in his HOF ballot. If you compare his numbers to other switch hitters in the HOF, he stacks up favorably.

dfs
07-12-2011, 09:21 PM
Not sure how you got your list. There are guys like Jeter, A-rod and Rivera who are over 32 and in.

I'll list guys who are on your list and still have a chance....

Rolen - He gets in my hall, But I tend to have a pretty big hall. I won't mock you for excluding him.

Carlos Beltran - How does he age? If he vanishes, he doesn't get in. If he declines bit by bit, he's in.

Vlad - I think Vlad is reaching longshot status. He's a fun player to root for, but his skills are eroding and he doesn't have the length of career yet to pad his numbers.

Beltre - Probably a better candidate than Rolen. Doesn't have the FAME part of a hall of fame career that I would give Rolen, but that could change.

Ichiro - If your hall doesn't have room for Ichiro, it's too small.

Utley - Late start to his career for a HOF player, but all he's done since he's been up is play brilliantly. He's not IN yet, but he hasn't played his way out of the hall yet. Interesting that he was kept on the bench as a youngster so the win-now phillies could play palonco who is also on the list (but won't get into the hall.)

Sabathia - as has been noted he's still too young for the list, but he looks to be on track for a hall of fame career. That would be more impressive if he WAS 3-4 years older. He's a strong candidate with lots of time for things to go wrong.

Santana - When I talk about thing going wrong for CC, witness this career. The last couple of years have not been kind. I still think he's got a chance to right the ship and have a good second half to his career, but I could be wrong.

The question most folks seem to be answering is if they stopped playing today, which of these guys would get in and I think Ichiro is the only one on that list who is already in.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-12-2011, 09:26 PM
Not sure how you got your list. There are guys like Jeter, A-rod and Rivera who are over 32 and in.

I would think those three don't even need to be included as they are probably 1st-ballot locks.

RedsManRick
07-12-2011, 10:16 PM
Not sure how you got your list. There are guys like Jeter, A-rod and Rivera who are over 32 and in.

in my original post I said I was ignoring the no-brainers, guys who would be in no-doubt if they retired tomorrow, including those 3.

Chip R
07-12-2011, 10:45 PM
Where is Pujols on this list?

camisadelgolf
07-12-2011, 11:20 PM
I'm shocked that Ichiro is leading this. Don't get me wrong--I voted for him--but I figured a lot more people would've had a problem getting his major league career started so late.

Brutus
07-12-2011, 11:22 PM
If we were the baseball writers, only two guys (Ichiro and Halladay) currently have the necessary votes lol

dfs
07-12-2011, 11:34 PM
If we were the baseball writers, only two guys (Ichiro and Halladay) currently have the necessary votes lol

That's probably reasonable. Most of the guys in the 32-35 age range won't have proved they belong yet. If Beltran or Utely have 6 more good years, the conversation about them gets interesting.

My apologies to RMR who could have pointed out that reading his initial post would have been a good idea. Oops. I won't quarrel with any of your locks, but I doubt the writers consider Pudge to be a lock. I don't know how serious the steroids claims around him will be treated. Any wiff of roids has been treated pretty harshly by the writers. Perhaps that will change. Once the question comes up...you have to wonder if A-Rod will be treated kindly or not. Clearly both of these guys belong in the hall, but then reds fans well know that other matters can cloud the judgement of the voters and clear hall of famers can be kept out of the hall.

MikeThierry
07-12-2011, 11:40 PM
Where is Pujols on this list?

I thought the idea of the poll was players that weren't automatic locks. If something tragic happened to Pujols he would probably go into the HOF right now with the career he has put up. Plus he is 31.

Chip R
07-12-2011, 11:43 PM
Plus he is 31.

Sure he is. ;)

BuckeyeRedleg
07-12-2011, 11:53 PM
Pujols is a lock whether he's 30 or 40, so he wouldn't fit the description of the poll.


First, let's just pass on the locks, the guys who could retire tomorrow and get in:

Position Players: Jeter, ARod, Chipper Jones, Pujols, Pudge Rodriguez
Pitchers: Mo Rivera.

Edd Roush
07-14-2011, 01:32 PM
I went with Halladay, Ichiro and Sabathia. I am blown away that CC is still 30 and already has 170 wins. Granted, I think wins are a terrible way to judge a pitcher, but it has been the "greatness" criteria in the past, and he will get in because of that. BTW 17-5 in his 20 year old year? That is incredible and no ROY to boot. I also love that he has a 2.74 K:BB career ratio and he is a pitcher who can hit. My dream scenario involves him opting out of his current deal with the Yankees after this year and then signing with the Reds. I know there is a 0.00001% chance of this happening, but it would be awesome.

I feel like Halladay and Ichiro are locks. I could be swayed on a couple on that list (Jones and Rolen), but I feel like they were very good players, and not the very best. I am leaving Manny out because of his second PED bust. I get that PEDs are/were a part of the game, but the way he left the game is not Hall of Fame worthy, IMO.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-14-2011, 02:54 PM
The case for Scott Rolen.

Only 13 third basemen are in the HOF (Baker, Boggs, Brett, Collins, Dandridge, Johnson, Kell, Lindstrom, Mathews, Robinson, Schmidt, Traynor, Wilson).


How he ranks amongst 3B all-time:

OPS+: 11th (123) – behind: Schmidt (147), Arod (147), Mathews (143), Jones (141), Rosen (136), Brett (135), Baker (135), Boggs (130), Santo (125), Elliott (124).

HR’s (while playing 3B): 10th (304) – behind: Schmidt (509), Mathews (487), Nettles (368), Jones (366), M. Williams (359), Santo (335), Gaetti (332), Cey (312), Castilla (306).

RBI’s (while playing 3B): 6th (1241) – behind: Schmidt (1474), Mathews (1362), Robinson (1350), Santo (1295), Jones (1258)

Hits (while playing 3B): 12th (1995) – behind: Robinson (2838), Boggs (2788), Bell (2327), Hack (2193), Mathews (2174), Santo (2163), Gaetti (2124), Nettles (2110), Jones (2078), Schmidt (2059), Brett (2044).



Game played at 3B: 12th (1923 games) – He and Brooks Robinson are top two for % of their total games played at 3B (99%).

Gold Gloves: 3rd (9) – behind: Robinson (16) and Schmidt (10).

Defensive WAR (from Baseball Reference): 4th (ranked #25 , regardless of position, all-time)…..behind: Robinson, Bell, and Ventura at 3B.


So 13 third basemen are in the HOF (the least of any position) and Rolen is in the top 12 of every significant offensive category and is arguably one of the top 5 defensive 3B of all-time. He might not get in immediately, but in my opinion there is no reason for him to be left out. It might take 10 years after he retires, but he’ll get in.




As for Johnny Damon. 3000 hits is 3000 hits. If he does that which would take two more years, he’s a lock.

bucksfan2
07-14-2011, 03:07 PM
As for Johnny Damon. 3000 hits is 3000 hits. If he does that which would take two more years, hes a lock.

Was he ever a top 5 player at this position? I think Damon is a nice player, probably an under-appreciated player, but not a HOF. Over the course of his career he has made two all star games and never finished in the top 10 of MVP voting. I don't think you would have ever considered him a dominant AL outfielder. Heck during the first 10 years of his career he was more known for having a long beard than he was for his game.

mace
07-14-2011, 03:32 PM
I'll go with the resonance test. To me, a Hall of Famer's name has a certain ring to it. In most cases, you simply know that either he is or isn't. Obviously, there are exceptions. If I were casting a BBWAA vote, I'd certainly dissect the stats to avoid mistakes. But for these purposes, I'll do this without looking up the numbers:

Ichiro
Halladay
Sabathia
Guerrero

That said, I did look up one guy. Rolen. Because I think his defense is good enough to get him part of the way in. So I compared him to Brooks Robinson and found that he's much, much more qualified as a hitter. So, yes, Rolen.

Also, I suspect that if I checked out Helton's numbers, he'd look like a Hall of Famer. But he doesn't resonate. And Ramirez would, too, but I just can't vote for a player with his total profile.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-14-2011, 03:54 PM
Was he ever a top 5 player at this position? I think Damon is a nice player, probably an under-appreciated player, but not a HOF. Over the course of his career he has made two all star games and never finished in the top 10 of MVP voting. I don't think you would have ever considered him a dominant AL outfielder. Heck during the first 10 years of his career he was more known for having a long beard than he was for his game.

Agree, but 3000 hits is the holy grail of baseball.

What you've desribed above is Paul Molitor. He's in as well.

wolfboy
07-14-2011, 04:23 PM
Agree, but 3000 hits is the holy grail of baseball.

What you've desribed above is Paul Molitor. He's in as well.

I just can't see it. Damon hasn't even put up a 5 win season.

Edd Roush
07-14-2011, 04:39 PM
The case for Scott Rolen.

Only 13 third basemen are in the HOF (Baker, Boggs, Brett, Collins, Dandridge, Johnson, Kell, Lindstrom, Mathews, Robinson, Schmidt, Traynor, Wilson).


How he ranks amongst 3B all-time:

OPS+: 11th (123) behind: Schmidt (147), Arod (147), Mathews (143), Jones (141), Rosen (136), Brett (135), Baker (135), Boggs (130), Santo (125), Elliott (124).

HRs (while playing 3B): 10th (304) behind: Schmidt (509), Mathews (487), Nettles (368), Jones (366), M. Williams (359), Santo (335), Gaetti (332), Cey (312), Castilla (306).

RBIs (while playing 3B): 6th (1241) behind: Schmidt (1474), Mathews (1362), Robinson (1350), Santo (1295), Jones (1258)

Hits (while playing 3B): 12th (1995) behind: Robinson (2838), Boggs (2788), Bell (2327), Hack (2193), Mathews (2174), Santo (2163), Gaetti (2124), Nettles (2110), Jones (2078), Schmidt (2059), Brett (2044).



Game played at 3B: 12th (1923 games) He and Brooks Robinson are top two for % of their total games played at 3B (99%).

Gold Gloves: 3rd (9) behind: Robinson (16) and Schmidt (10).

Defensive WAR (from Baseball Reference): 4th (ranked #25 , regardless of position, all-time)..behind: Robinson, Bell, and Ventura at 3B.


So 13 third basemen are in the HOF (the least of any position) and Rolen is in the top 12 of every significant offensive category and is arguably one of the top 5 defensive 3B of all-time. He might not get in immediately, but in my opinion there is no reason for him to be left out. It might take 10 years after he retires, but hell get in.




As for Johnny Damon. 3000 hits is 3000 hits. If he does that which would take two more years, hes a lock.

Thanks for the post BuckeyeRedleg, you certainly have swayed my opinion. I hope we can win Rolen another WS ring so he could consider going into the Hall as a Red.

camisadelgolf
07-14-2011, 04:46 PM
Johnny Damon is borderline for me. I'm leaning toward "no" at the moment, but a couple very strong years could change my mind. I think it's also worth noting that I don't think postseason play should be ignored when deciding whether someone is a Hall of Famer.

marcshoe
07-14-2011, 06:07 PM
I voted without looking at the numbers. Rollins should be out and C.C. should be in.

paintmered
07-14-2011, 06:39 PM
Edit: not sure how my reply to the Jimenez thread ended up in here. :confused: