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Dan
07-12-2011, 01:35 PM
MLBTR Link (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/07/ubaldo-jimenez-on-reds-radar.html?utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=twitterfeed)


The Reds have Rockies ace Ubaldo Jimenez "on their radar," report Ken Rosenthal and Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports. However, the Rockies "have yet to engage in meaningful dialogue about Jimenez with the Reds or any other club," and the Reds are not certain to be trade deadline buyers.

Interesting development to say the least.

reds1869
07-12-2011, 01:44 PM
Ubaldo is the kind of player you empty the shelves for. Under team control until 2013 and still very good despite a rocky start to the season.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-12-2011, 01:47 PM
I wish this report/rumor would never have surfaced. If the Reds are interested in Ubaldo, I'd just as soon it stayed under the radar and pleasantly surprised us if/when it happened. Once they're made public, they rarely ever come true.

Also, these reports tend to put Walt in a defensive/deny mode and maybe even shortcircuit any chance that they have of becoming reality. Walt seemed to take pleasure in assuring everyone over the winter that he's had no discussions with anyone every time something like this surfaced.

Needless to say, I'd throw a parade down Walnut Street should the Reds get Ubaldo Jimenez. I'm usually quite fond of Rockies players (Willie Tavarez excluded).

757690
07-12-2011, 01:57 PM
That would be exactly what the Reds need.

Not sure i like this comment by Mbltr at the end.


Rosenthal and Morosi kick around the idea of a Reds package starting with Homer Bailey, Mike Leake, or Travis Wood, but I think that could be beat if teams like the Yankees, Cardinals, Tigers, Phillies, or Pirates come calling.

None of those teams have more depth than the Reds, nor do they have a young starting pitcher that is significantly more attractive than Bailey, Leake or Wood.

Ghosts of 1990
07-12-2011, 01:57 PM
If he's on our radar I'm sure he's on 30 other team's as well.

No reason for the Rockies to deal him.

redsmetz
07-12-2011, 01:59 PM
I wish this report/rumor would never have surfaced. If the Reds are interested in Ubaldo, I'd just as soon it stayed under the radar and pleasantly surprised us if/when it happened. Once they're made public, they rarely ever come true.

Also, these reports tend to put Walt in a defensive/deny mode and maybe even shortcircuit any chance that they have of becoming reality. Walt seemed to take pleasure in assuring everyone over the winter that he's had no discussions with anyone every time something like this surfaced.

Needless to say, I'd throw a parade down Walnut Street should the Reds get Ubaldo Jimenez. I'm usually quite fond of Rockies players (Willie Tavarez excluded).

By MLB's rules, Walt can't comment on this lest he be guilty of tampering, so really it's of no consequence if such a rumor is valid or not. I'm not sure I would read much into any intimations Jocketty makes on any move. He continues to strike me as a "keep the cards close to the vest" sort of GM. I know that drives us nuts around here, but I think it's a good sight better than the blabbermouth & braggadocio ways of previous general manager.

toledodan
07-12-2011, 02:03 PM
i would trade any of those 3 mentioned above but not 2 together.

Slyder
07-12-2011, 02:04 PM
Do they need a 1b?

One of Wood/Bailey/Leake, Alonso, Frazier????

RedsManRick
07-12-2011, 02:11 PM
Yes Please!

I think a package like the on Slyder described plus another one of our best pitching prospects -- Corcino or Boxberger is along the lines of what it would take. Maybe they'd prefer a guy like Hamilton or Torreyes to Frazier.

But you're going to have to make it a "clear win" for the Rockies for the GM to pull it off politically.

toledodan
07-12-2011, 02:12 PM
Do they need a 1b?

One of Wood/Bailey/Leake, Alonso, Frazier????


helton is getting old. i don't know if they have a top prospect ready to come up at 1st. if they don't alonso makes sense. of course i'm still holding out for yonder to improve his defense and play lf for us.

reds44
07-12-2011, 02:16 PM
Now this is what I'm talking about.

reds44
07-12-2011, 02:16 PM
Do they need a 1b?

One of Wood/Bailey/Leake, Alonso, Frazier????
It would take more than this I bet.

Wood, Alonso, Heisey, Grandal, and maybe another one.

Caveat Emperor
07-12-2011, 02:18 PM
If you want a guy like Jimenez, you'd better be ready to part with Devin Mesoraco.

Reminds me a lot of the Bedard situation a few years back, where the deal was scuttled because the Reds were offering Joey Votto but the O's wanted Jay Bruce. I could see the same situation developing with "You can have Yonder or Yasmani, but no Mes..."

toledodan
07-12-2011, 02:19 PM
If you want a guy like Jimenez, you'd better be ready to part with Devin Mesoraco.

Reminds me a lot of the Bedard situation a few years back, where the deal was scuttled because the Reds were offering Joey Votto but the O's wanted Jay Bruce.

yuck, yuck and yuck. i think the no trade worked out better for us.

reds44
07-12-2011, 02:20 PM
Mesoraco is the one guy I don't think the Reds will deal. He's the starting catcher next year.

Unless they feel like they can squeeze another year or two out of Ramon and wait for Grandal.

Caveat Emperor
07-12-2011, 02:21 PM
yuck, yuck and yuck. i think the no trade worked out better for us.

True.

Though, interestingly enough, if I'm Walt Jocketty, I at least entertain the notion of offering up Votto again here.

lollipopcurve
07-12-2011, 02:21 PM
If you want a guy like Jimenez, you'd better be ready to part with Devin Mesoraco.

Reminds me a lot of the Bedard situation a few years back, where the deal was scuttled because the Reds were offering Joey Votto but the O's wanted Jay Bruce. I could see the same situation developing with "You can have Yonder or Yasmani, but no Mes..."

Rockies have Wilin Rosario -- some say he's the best catching prospect in baseball. The allure of this for the Reds is that they likely do not have to give up a young catcher.

Caveat Emperor
07-12-2011, 02:22 PM
Rockies have Wilin Rosario -- some say he's the best catching prospect in baseball. The allure of this for the Reds is that they likely do not have to give up a young catcher.

If Bowden's theory on Mes being a #3 bat is widely held, the Rockies could target him for a move to the corner infield.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-12-2011, 02:25 PM
If you want a guy like Jimenez, you'd better be ready to part with Devin Mesoraco.

Reminds me a lot of the Bedard situation a few years back, where the deal was scuttled because the Reds were offering Joey Votto but the O's wanted Jay Bruce. I could see the same situation developing with "You can have Yonder or Yasmani, but no Mes..."

I shudder just reading that.

What were the O's thinking? What were the Reds thinking???

Caveat Emperor
07-12-2011, 02:29 PM
I shudder just reading that.

What were the O's thinking? What were the Reds thinking???

The same thing most of us on here were thinking:

Joey Votto = The Canadian Sean Casey
Jay Bruce = The American Larry Walker

mdccclxix
07-12-2011, 02:30 PM
That was still in the days when pitchers with a 4.35 ERA were getting truckloads in FA.

lollipopcurve
07-12-2011, 02:30 PM
If Bowden's theory on Mes being a #3 bat is widely held, the Rockies could target him for a move to the corner infield.

True. But no doubt they'd need a pitcher back. So you start a package with a young arm, and then move to guys like Alonso and Francisco, if they're thinking they need help at 1B and/or 3B. My guess is they could be intrigued by Stubbs. Dexter Fowler has fallen out of favor, and they don't seem to have a good 2nd option there. I think the Reds have enough to keep Mesoraco/Grandal out of the deal.

I would be very suspicious of the Rockies' willingness to Jimenez. He has had arm issues, and his mechanics are decidedly unorthodox.

Why give up a guy who has performed like a #1 starter for long stretches, when he's under team control at a nice price for a few more years? Sounds a little fishy to me.

camisadelgolf
07-12-2011, 02:33 PM
The Rockies would love to have someone take over for Helton. Travis Wood + Yonder Alonso + Billy Hamilton might get their attention, but the Rockies and Reds don't match up well when it comes to not exceeding the Reds' payroll.

IslandRed
07-12-2011, 02:34 PM
I would be very suspicious of the Rockies' willingness to Jimenez. He has had arm issues, and his mechanics are decidedly unorthodox.

Why give up a guy who has performed like a #1 starter for long stretches, when he's under team control at a nice price for a few more years? Sounds a little fishy to me.

Could just be bait and switch...

mdccclxix
07-12-2011, 02:34 PM
True.

Though, interestingly enough, if I'm Walt Jocketty, I at least entertain the notion of offering up Votto again here.

Not a chance on that.

11larkin11
07-12-2011, 02:38 PM
FWIW, BR has Ubaldo signed for next year at 4.2 mil, team option for '13 at 5.75 mil, and team option for '14 at 8 mil. The '14 option can be voided by the player, however, if traded. Option costs also escalate based on Cy Young voting.

Caveat Emperor
07-12-2011, 02:40 PM
Not a chance on that.

I don't know why you wouldn't at least consider moving Votto to bring an ace back, considering:

1. The Reds really need better pitching (pairing another top arm with Cueto gives them at least a fighting chance to make the playoffs and win in the post-season)
2. The Reds have an in-house MLB-ready replacement for Votto at 1B (Alonso) that would reduce payroll considerably
3. Votto's reluctance to sign long term with Cincinnati
4. The cost of signing Votto long term and that impact on signing other players

I don't see why people aren't at least open to dealing Votto. The reality is, he's told Cincinnati in not-so-many-words that he's not here to stay. He's only got 2 more years left here on his deal. The Reds (and Reds fans) should be mentally and strategically preparing for Life After Votto.

cincrazy
07-12-2011, 02:43 PM
I don't know why you wouldn't at least consider moving Votto to bring an ace back, considering:

1. The Reds really need better pitching (pairing another top arm with Cueto gives them at least a fighting chance to make the playoffs and win in the post-season)
2. The Reds have an in-house MLB-ready replacement for Votto at 1B (Alonso) that would reduce payroll considerably
3. Votto's reluctance to sign long term with Cincinnati
4. The cost of signing Votto long term and that impact on signing other players

I don't see why people aren't at least open to dealing Votto. The reality is, he's told Cincinnati in not-so-many-words that he's not here to stay. He's only got 2 more years left here on his deal. The Reds (and Reds fans) should be mentally and strategically preparing for Life After Votto.

I would be open to moving him. But not for Ubaldo Jimenez. Too many red flags, too much inconsistentcy. Dominant for some stretches, flat out awful for others. If I'm letting go of Votto, I'm letting go of Votto for a sure thing. And I don't think Jimenez constitutes a sure thing.

Edd Roush
07-12-2011, 02:46 PM
the Rockies and Reds don't match up well when it comes to not exceeding the Reds' payroll.

I actually disagree here. Ubaldo is owed less than 1.5 million for this year and 4.2 million dollars next year, plus the Reds would have an option for 2013 at a below market rate. He is exactly the kind of ace the Reds can afford.

With Colorado 8.5 games out, they may start thinking about dealing Ubaldo for a few good parts. I hope they are down on him due to a poor record. Anyone know where you could find a BABIP against Ubaldo? Either way, his strikeout rate and his BB rate are good and this could be a good time to grab him.

I would start with Alonso, Heisey and Wood/Volquez and see if that is close. I would be willing to substitute in any body but Mesoraco and Bailey and would give them some low level minor league players as well (but not too many).

Ubaldo puts this team right back in the race and makes the Reds favorites again. I really like paying a little bit extra for Ubaldo.

Ubaldo/Cueto/Leake/Bailey/Arroyo will get us to the playoffs with this offense/defense and Ubaldo/Cueto/Leake is an above average playoff rotation.

Ubaldo could be the Joe Morgan of this Big Red Machine.

mdccclxix
07-12-2011, 02:47 PM
I don't know why you wouldn't at least consider moving Votto to bring an ace back, considering:

1. The Reds really need better pitching (pairing another top arm with Cueto gives them at least a fighting chance to make the playoffs and win in the post-season)
2. The Reds have an in-house MLB-ready replacement for Votto at 1B (Alonso) that would reduce payroll considerably
3. Votto's reluctance to sign long term with Cincinnati
4. The cost of signing Votto long term and that impact on signing other players

I don't see why people aren't at least open to dealing Votto. The reality is, he's told Cincinnati in not-so-many-words that he's not here to stay. He's only got 2 more years left here on his deal. The Reds (and Reds fans) should be mentally and strategically preparing for Life After Votto.

Yes, but he's still under contract for 2.5 years. The time to trade him is next year if we're out of it, or before 2013. We also have a wealth of prospects and less important young players to deal from. It's too early to trade Votto, the town would absolutely freak out. No way it's happening anytime soon. I'm sure they'd like to keep him long term still as a matter of fact. Alonso could flop to the tune of .720 OPS the rest of the year and the fans would run, run away.

Ubaldo only costs 10 million between now and the end of 2013. Sounds like it's worth the risk to me, especially if we're talking some of Alonso, Volquez, Sappelt, Valaika, Francisco, Wood, Bailey.

membengal
07-12-2011, 02:49 PM
Great target. Rockies indeed don't need a catcher. Wood/Stubbs/Alonso. That would do it I am guessing.

Playadlc
07-12-2011, 02:51 PM
I don't know why you wouldn't at least consider moving Votto to bring an ace back, considering:

1. The Reds really need better pitching (pairing another top arm with Cueto gives them at least a fighting chance to make the playoffs and win in the post-season)
2. The Reds have an in-house MLB-ready replacement for Votto at 1B (Alonso) that would reduce payroll considerably
3. Votto's reluctance to sign long term with Cincinnati
4. The cost of signing Votto long term and that impact on signing other players

I don't see why people aren't at least open to dealing Votto. The reality is, he's told Cincinnati in not-so-many-words that he's not here to stay. He's only got 2 more years left here on his deal. The Reds (and Reds fans) should be mentally and strategically preparing for Life After Votto.

I agree with every bit of this.

kaldaniels
07-12-2011, 02:56 PM
By MLB's rules, Walt can't comment on this lest he be guilty of tampering, so really it's of no consequence if such a rumor is valid or not. I'm not sure I would read much into any intimations Jocketty makes on any move. He continues to strike me as a "keep the cards close to the vest" sort of GM. I know that drives us nuts around here, but I think it's a good sight better than the blabbermouth & braggadocio ways of previous general manager.

Is admitting you are trying to trade for a player tampering?

REDblooded
07-12-2011, 03:00 PM
Could just be bait and switch...

They have other good young arms and probably don't expect to pay all of them down the road...

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-12-2011, 03:07 PM
And the standard Jocketty response:

“We have not had specific or significant trade talks with anyone at this point. All discussion with other teams has been more general info gathering.”

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2011/07/12/jimenez-on-radar-jocketty-no-significant-trade-talks/

reds44
07-12-2011, 03:08 PM
I don't know why you wouldn't at least consider moving Votto to bring an ace back, considering:

1. The Reds really need better pitching (pairing another top arm with Cueto gives them at least a fighting chance to make the playoffs and win in the post-season)
2. The Reds have an in-house MLB-ready replacement for Votto at 1B (Alonso) that would reduce payroll considerably
3. Votto's reluctance to sign long term with Cincinnati
4. The cost of signing Votto long term and that impact on signing other players

I don't see why people aren't at least open to dealing Votto. The reality is, he's told Cincinnati in not-so-many-words that he's not here to stay. He's only got 2 more years left here on his deal. The Reds (and Reds fans) should be mentally and strategically preparing for Life After Votto.
Not a chance. The Reds still have 2.5 more years of Votto in this contract. This a conversation for 2 years from now.

Homer Bailey
07-12-2011, 03:08 PM
Avg. Fastball:

2010: 96.1
2011: 93.4

His peripherals still look very solid, but is there anyone else concerned that something might be physically wrong with him? Maybe he's throwing more 2 seamers, but if the Rockies are willing to trade him, that's a bit of a red flag for me.

LoganBuck
07-12-2011, 03:08 PM
This I would consider.

Alonso is only a trading chip, with Votto around, and he is maximizing that value now. Any one of Wood, Leake, Bailey, and Volquez, would be a nice chip to sell to a fan base. I would include ANY two prospects in the Reds system after Mes/Grandal/Corcino.

reds44
07-12-2011, 03:10 PM
And the standard Jocketty response:

“We have not had specific or significant trade talks with anyone at this point. All discussion with other teams has been more general info gathering.”

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2011/07/12/jimenez-on-radar-jocketty-no-significant-trade-talks/
Yeah just like Volquez was starting on Sunday and Cozart was coming up.

johngalt
07-12-2011, 03:13 PM
Is admitting you are trying to trade for a player tampering?

Yes, absolutely it is.

reds44
07-12-2011, 03:13 PM
Great target. Rockies indeed don't need a catcher. Wood/Stubbs/Alonso. That would do it I am guessing.
I would do this in a heartbeat, but I get the feleing it's going to take a little more than that.

mdccclxix
07-12-2011, 03:14 PM
Avg. Fastball:

2010: 96.1
2011: 93.4

His peripherals still look very solid, but is there anyone else concerned that something might be physically wrong with him? Maybe he's throwing more 2 seamers, but if the Rockies are willing to trade him, that's a bit of a red flag for me.

The risk is definitely there, but 10 mil or so over the next 2 years, with a buyout of 1 mil after next year, makes this problem a bit more tenable. If the deal is limited to players that are mostly blocked, I have to consider this deal a good one for the Reds. If Ubaldo comes in and commands the Central (he's owned everyone but the Cubs over his career) for the next 2+ years, it will establish even more confidence in the players and fans that this team means business.

kaldaniels
07-12-2011, 03:16 PM
Yes, absolutely it is.

Is it enforced? I remember a certain leatherpantsed GM declaring he was going to "bring Jr. Back home" with him.

dunner13
07-12-2011, 03:16 PM
Ubaldo would be a huge upgrade and exactly what this team needs. Starting pitching has killed us the first half, getting a true ace would fix that instantly. Im guessing we will end up having to give up at least two sp's (bailey, and probably a minor leaguer or volquez) Alonso, billy hamilton (moves to 2nd with the rockies) and a throw in prospect

mdccclxix
07-12-2011, 03:17 PM
I also like this deal from the perspective that Ubaldo can mentor Chapman, as they are similar pitchers. It would be awfully nice to see

Ubaldo
Cueto
Chapman
Leake
Arroyo

In 2012!

membengal
07-12-2011, 03:17 PM
I would do this in a heartbeat, but I get the feleing it's going to take a little more than that.



One more if need be. But Stubbs would have pretty solid value I think...especially as a cf in coors. Toss in josh smith and call it a day.

OldXOhio
07-12-2011, 03:18 PM
And the standard Jocketty response:

“We have not had specific or significant trade talks with anyone at this point. All discussion with other teams has been more general info gathering.”

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2011/07/12/jimenez-on-radar-jocketty-no-significant-trade-talks/

Isn't this pretty much what Rosenthal said in his column, from the Rockies standpoint.

kaldaniels
07-12-2011, 03:18 PM
And the standard Jocketty response:

“We have not had specific or significant trade talks with anyone at this point. All discussion with other teams has been more general info gathering.”

[url]



Hmmmm... Fay didn't insert his patented "they can't afford him" remark.

bucksfan2
07-12-2011, 03:21 PM
Why would the Rockies trade Ubaldo?

cumberlandreds
07-12-2011, 03:27 PM
Why would the Rockies trade Ubaldo?

My thought too. Unless he's hurt they ain't trading him.

membengal
07-12-2011, 03:35 PM
Why would the Rockies trade Ubaldo?


Why did the royals trade grienke?

lollipopcurve
07-12-2011, 03:46 PM
Looking over MLBTR's recent Rockies' rumors, it appears they're looking for depth in starting pitching. I'd think if the Reds were willing to deal a couple of starters (say Wood and Volquez) plus a bat, that would have to get the Rockies' attention.

traderumor
07-12-2011, 03:49 PM
Looking over MLBTR's recent Rockies' rumors, it appears they're looking for depth in starting pitching. I'd think if the Reds were willing to deal a couple of starters (say Wood and Volquez) plus a bat, that would have to get the Rockies' attention.If they are, I'm not sure I'd start with trading my best pitcher for two who are likely to be below average major league pitchers. Unless they are defining depth by "mirror fogged when put under nose."

oneupper
07-12-2011, 03:49 PM
My thought too. Unless he's hurt they ain't trading him.

Crazy Home/Away splits this year.
Home: 6.24 ERA
Away: 2.28 ERA

From Coors to Petco and ATT Park makes a world of difference

RedsManRick
07-12-2011, 03:50 PM
Why would the Rockies trade Ubaldo?

To get to the other side. It sides trite, but really, if you feel like you can improve your organization, you do it. Nobody is truly untouchable in that sense. Sure, a few players cross a line where the potential risk involved in trading a guy, in terms of both production and politics, trumps any remotely realistic offer, but that's a really, really high bar.

traderumor
07-12-2011, 03:50 PM
Crazy Home/Away splits this year.
Home: 6.24 ERA
Away: 2.28 ERA

From Coors to Petco and ATT Park makes a world of differenceMakes you wonder if he'd have similar troubles in our ballpark. Of course, I'd be fine with seeing if that's the case.

redsmetz
07-12-2011, 03:51 PM
Is admitting you are trying to trade for a player tampering?

If they name the specific player, yes, it's tampering.

cumberlandreds
07-12-2011, 03:54 PM
Why did the royals trade grienke?


Royals are dumber than the Rockies? :dunno:

cumberlandreds
07-12-2011, 03:57 PM
Crazy Home/Away splits this year.
Home: 6.24 ERA
Away: 2.28 ERA

From Coors to Petco and ATT Park makes a world of difference

That makes more sense than anything else I've seen. But like someone else said it may just as bad in GABP. I would trade for him with the right pieces but I find it hard to believe the Rockies will trade him. Most of these rumors are baseless and its just a writer throwing stuff against the wall to see which one will stick.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-12-2011, 03:57 PM
Why would the Rockies trade Ubaldo?

Why would the Reds trade Joey Votto? While it's highly unlikely, it has been suggested as a possibility by some on this board.

cinreds21
07-12-2011, 04:09 PM
I mentioned the Reds going after him a few days ago and hardly anyone agreed with me..hmmm.

REDREAD
07-12-2011, 04:10 PM
I"m interested, but to me, but I would not include Stubbs in a deal.

Stubbs is an important part of this team, both on offense and defense.
Heisey just is not even close to a comparison.. Good CF are as hard to find as front line starting pitchers.

They can have Heisey, choice of Wood/Homer, Volquez, and/or prospects.
They can pretty much pick their prospects out of the minor leagues, even Mes.

I would like to avoid trading Leake, as I also see him as a playoff starter (given the other options now).

Homer Bailey
07-12-2011, 04:12 PM
I mentioned the Reds going after him a few days ago and hardly anyone agreed with me..hmmm.

Really? Not how I read it at all. Many just don't there there is a good trade match.

cinreds21
07-12-2011, 04:15 PM
Really? Not how I read it at all. Many just don't there there is a good trade match.

What?

And when I said i mentioned it, I meant as in speculation, not anything I've heard.

Homer Bailey
07-12-2011, 04:17 PM
What?

And when I said i mentioned it, I meant as in speculation, not anything I've heard.

What are you saying people didn't agree with?

Benihana
07-12-2011, 04:18 PM
Looking over MLBTR's recent Rockies' rumors, it appears they're looking for depth in starting pitching. I'd think if the Reds were willing to deal a couple of starters (say Wood and Volquez) plus a bat, that would have to get the Rockies' attention.

This is what I was thinking.

If the Reds could couple Bailey or Wood with Volquez, and add a bat like Grandal, Alonso, or one of the Dragons, this could be exactly what they need.

bucksfan2
07-12-2011, 04:23 PM
To get to the other side. It sides trite, but really, if you feel like you can improve your organization, you do it. Nobody is truly untouchable in that sense. Sure, a few players cross a line where the potential risk involved in trading a guy, in terms of both production and politics, trumps any remotely realistic offer, but that's a really, really high bar.

The trade of Ubaldo seems something based upon fantasy baseball to me. The Rockies are built for both the now and the future. All three of their best players, Tulo, CarGo, and Ubaldo, are young and locked up through their prime. A lineup with CarGo and Tulo in the middle of it can pretty much hold together any lineup. I just don't see how trading Ubaldo would make the team better, especially when you consider they are built to contend now as well as into the future.

cinreds21
07-12-2011, 04:26 PM
What are you saying people didn't agree with?

I don't know. Never mind. My bad.

mace
07-12-2011, 04:33 PM
Just for bookkeeping, indexing purposes, out of the following players, in what order would you be willing to part with them (assuming they bring comparable returns in a trade)?

Alonso, Stubbs, Heisey, Grandal, Bailey, Volquez, Wood, Leake, Sappelt, Yorman.

For me, I think (again, No. 1 is the guy you'd most willingly trade, No. 10 the one you'd most reluctantly trade):

1. Volquez
2. Yorman
3. Sappelt
4. Alonso
5. Bailey
6. Stubbs
7. Heisey
8. Grandal
9. Wood
10. Leake

Caveat Emperor
07-12-2011, 04:36 PM
1. Sappelt
2. Heisey
3. Volquez
4. Yorman
5. Wood
6. Alonso
7. Stubbs
8. Grandal
9. Leake
10. Bailey

reds44
07-12-2011, 04:54 PM
Honestly, I'd probably have Stubbs high up on my list just because I think he has a lot more value on the market than prospects do and the Reds have two potential in house replacements for him.

cincrazy
07-12-2011, 04:58 PM
I would make this deal if I was Cincy. If I COULD. But if I'm the Rockies, I'm asking for the world. And for good reason, with him being so cheap. I think Reds fans tend to rate Reds prospects much more highly than other organizations and fans would. A Heisey/Bailey and or Volquez/Alonso deal wouldn't nearly cut it. Unless something is structurally wrong with the man.

jojo
07-12-2011, 05:00 PM
The Reds have Rockies ace Ubaldo Jimenez "on their radar,"

I'm not really sure why this is juicy news. We can pretty much assume that any quality pitcher or shortstop that would represent a significant upgrade is "on the Reds radar", unless the Reds fall off of a cliff before the deadline. The reality is that it would be pretty surprising if the Rockies traded Jimenez.

cinreds21
07-12-2011, 05:06 PM
1.Volquez
2.Alonso
3.Yorman
4.Francisco
5. Grandal
6. Sappelt
7. Bailey
8. Leake
9. Joseph
10. Wood

johngalt
07-12-2011, 05:09 PM
Is it enforced? I remember a certain leatherpantsed GM declaring he was going to "bring Jr. Back home" with him.

The Jr. situation was a little bit different in that it had already become so public that it was easier for everyone to not make a big fuss about things like that.

To answer your question, though, I don't think teams have been punished too harshly for it, but you also never really hear anyone say that or confirm they're trying to deal for someone. After the fact they'll comment at times like Jocketty did last season with Lee, but that's different in that they're giving an account of what happened and not in a position of influence anymore really.

You just never hear team officials on the record say "Yes, we're trying to put a package together to get Ubaldo. He can be the ace we really need to put us over the top, so we're willing to give up a lot." Just doesn't happen, in any sport really.

Brutus
07-12-2011, 05:10 PM
The Rockies would love to have someone take over for Helton. Travis Wood + Yonder Alonso + Billy Hamilton might get their attention, but the Rockies and Reds don't match up well when it comes to not exceeding the Reds' payroll.

Ubaldo makes so little, it wouldn't be much of a payroll increase.

REDREAD
07-12-2011, 05:14 PM
1. Volquez
2. Yorman
3. Alonso
4. Grandal
5. Sappelt
6. Heisey
7. Bailey
8. Wood
9. Leake
10. Stubbs

Benihana
07-12-2011, 05:23 PM
1. Volquez
2. Yorman
3. Alonso
4. Grandal
5. Sappelt
6. Heisey
7. Bailey
8. Wood
9. Leake
10. Stubbs

This looks pretty good to me

Caveat Emperor
07-12-2011, 05:27 PM
A catching prospect with a good stick (Grandal) is infinitely more valuable than a guy (Heisey) who has profiled as a 4th outfielder for most of his professional career.

That's just my take, though.

mace
07-12-2011, 05:28 PM
So far, the biggest agreement seems to be on Volquez. The biggest discrepancy seems to be on Stubbs.

Edit: Pretty uniform agreement on Leake, also.

cinreds21
07-12-2011, 05:29 PM
Here's what Rotoworld's Drew Silva had to say on the matter just a few minutes ago:


4:26
Comment From cinreds21
What would it take for Cincy to get Ubaldo? One of Bailey/Leake/Wood, Alonso and what else?

4:27
I'm not real sure, but they have a decent system of guys who are close to being major league-ready. Would definitely make sense to move Alonso, and I could see one of those pitchers being in the package. The Reds can pull it off if they want to.

Playadlc
07-12-2011, 05:39 PM
Ubaldo has been unlucky this year, but if you're Colorado, right now seems like a bad time to try and move him.

Ubaldo seems to be a 3.50/1.25 with good K rates starting pitcher.

How much should we give up for that?

BuckeyeRedleg
07-12-2011, 05:48 PM
Ubaldo makes so little, it wouldn't be much of a payroll increase.

Ubaldo makes so little, it would be idiotic for the Rockies to deal him.

Caveat Emperor
07-12-2011, 05:52 PM
Ubaldo makes so little, it would be idiotic for the Rockies to deal him.

You could potentially turn one SP into 3-4 starting ballplayers. That's a tough return to pass up -- especially if your baseball people tell you "We can fix Edinson Volquez."

Homer Bailey
07-12-2011, 06:04 PM
So far, the biggest agreement seems to be on Volquez. The biggest discrepancy seems to be on Stubbs.

Edit: Pretty uniform agreement on Leake, also.

Volquez would be last on my list, because he wouldn't fetch much of anything in a trade.

fearofpopvol1
07-12-2011, 07:11 PM
Would the Rockies accept Alonso, Volquez and 1 of Bailey/Wood/Leake?

If so, I would do this deal and wouldn't think about it for 1 second.

cinreds21
07-12-2011, 07:15 PM
Would the Rockies accept Alonso, Volquez and 1 of Bailey/Wood/Leake?

If so, I would do this deal and wouldn't think about it for 1 second.

Same here. However, I think you'd have to add in a B or C prospect in as well.

Benihana
07-12-2011, 07:35 PM
Same here. However, I think you'd have to add in a B or C prospect in as well.

If you're talking about a guy like Francisco or Frazier, I'd still do that too.

Bailey/Wood, Volquez, Alonso and Francisco/Frazier. I'd do it.

Degenerate39
07-12-2011, 07:51 PM
Wood, Volquez, Alonso, and Grandal?

Throw in Frazier or Fransisco if needed

cinreds21
07-12-2011, 07:57 PM
They don't need Yas, unfortunately.

cinreds21
07-12-2011, 08:01 PM
And I'd be ok with those said three plus Yorman.

mth123
07-12-2011, 09:18 PM
The Rockies really won't get an upgrade from any of the Reds excess players. Bruce, Stubbs or Votto are probably the only position players they'd be after. What they need is cheap young pitching and Ubaldo is that. To get him I think it would take a Leake, Wood, Stubbs package (plus a kid or two - maybe Boxberger). They've got a stud catching prospect and Helton is still around at 1B. The Reds can't upgrade 2B, SS or 3B in Col unless they'd deal Phillips and it makes no sense for Col to take on that salary in a Ubaldo deal. In the OF, Cargo and the Smith/Spilborgs platoon is better than Heisey, Sappelt, or anyone not named Bruce. Stubbs would probably be an upgrade over Fowler, so he and 2 rotation arms is what it would take IMO. You could probably get away with a Stubbs, Cueto package, but I don't see how that deepens the Reds rotation any.

I can't see them having any interest in Volquez or Bailey and their questions as anything more than throw-ins.

Caveat Emperor
07-12-2011, 09:22 PM
The Rockies really won't get an upgrade from any of the Reds excess players. Bruce, Stubbs or Votto are probably the only position players they'd be after. What they need is cheap young pitching and Ubaldo is that. To get him I think it would take a Leake, Wood, Stubbs package (plus a kid or two - maybe Boxberger). They've got a stud catching prospect and Helton is still around at 1B. The Reds can't upgrade 2B, SS or 3B in Col unless they'd deal Phillips and it makes no sense for Col to take on that salary in a Ubaldo deal. In the OF, Cargo and the Smith/Spilborgs platoon is better than Heisey, Sappelt, or anyone not named Bruce. Stubbs would probably be an upgrade over Fowler. so he and 2 rotation arms is what it would take IMO. You could probably get away with a Stubbs, Cueto package, but I don't see how that deepens the Reds rotation any.

I can't see them having any interest in Volquez or Bailey and their questions as anything more than throw-ins.

You'd have to add a lot of value to a Stubbs package, IMO. More than it's probably worth considering you're giving up a starting major league CF under team control for several more years.

Now... Straight swap -- Jimenez for Votto. Assuming (which you never can) that Ubaldo checks out medically, who else besides me would at least consider this deal?

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-12-2011, 09:25 PM
You'd have to add a lot of value to a Stubbs package, IMO. More than it's probably worth considering you're giving up a starting major league CF under team control for several more years.

Now... Straight swap -- Jimenez for Votto. Assuming (which you never can) that Ubaldo checks out medically, who else besides me would at least consider this deal?

No way. Votto can have an impact in every game, Jimenez can only impact one of every five games.

mth123
07-12-2011, 09:28 PM
You'd have to add a lot of value to a Stubbs package, IMO. More than it's probably worth considering you're giving up a starting major league CF under team control for several more years.

Now... Straight swap -- Jimenez for Votto. Assuming (which you never can) that Ubaldo checks out medically, who else besides me would at least consider this deal?

Stubbs, Wood, Leake and Boxberger for Ubaldo would give the Reds a rotation and not a huge drop-off in CF with Sappelt and Heisey. I'm not as high on Alonso as many are and see him as a future Barton, Loney or Hatteberg and a huge drop-off from Votto. I'd sign Votto and deal Alonso ASAP.

Raisor
07-12-2011, 09:33 PM
Now... Straight swap -- Jimenez for Votto. Assuming (which you never can) that Ubaldo checks out medically, who else besides me would at least consider this deal?

Negative, Ghost Rider. The pattern is full.

Caveat Emperor
07-12-2011, 09:35 PM
No way. Votto can have an impact in every game, Jimenez can only impact one of every five games.

Yeah, but it's not like you're going from Votto to 0 at first base -- if you think Alonso can OPS (conservatively) .800-.850 at 1b with some upside potential on that, wouldn't you take that PLUS an ace pitcher over just having Votto (who is, admittedly, going to give you a better OPS)?

johngalt
07-12-2011, 09:42 PM
Now... Straight swap -- Jimenez for Votto. Assuming (which you never can) that Ubaldo checks out medically, who else besides me would at least consider this deal?

I would absolutely consider it. Let's face it, the odds of re-signing Votto past 2013 appear to be fairly small. If you could get an ace in return for him when you're going to replace him with a bat you expect to be very potent, then you have to strongly consider it. Especially when even in doing that, you save money on the deal too. Not that I'm saying I would definitely do it, but that could make it easier to do something like extend Phillips or do something else.

757690
07-12-2011, 09:44 PM
You'd have to add a lot of value to a Stubbs package, IMO. More than it's probably worth considering you're giving up a starting major league CF under team control for several more years.

Now... Straight swap -- Jimenez for Votto. Assuming (which you never can) that Ubaldo checks out medically, who else besides me would at least consider this deal?

The Reds are a perennial bottom division club without Votto. Numbers are meaningless. A contending team needs a consistent plus plus bat to anchor the lineup in order to contend. Maybe if the Reds had the Phillies pitching they could contend without Votto, but not as currently constructed.

Griffey012
07-12-2011, 09:47 PM
You'd have to add a lot of value to a Stubbs package, IMO. More than it's probably worth considering you're giving up a starting major league CF under team control for several more years.

Now... Straight swap -- Jimenez for Votto. Assuming (which you never can) that Ubaldo checks out medically, who else besides me would at least consider this deal?

Maybe if we throw in some more talent and they throw in CarGo. Votto > Ubaldo and it's really not that close. Pitchers are too much of a risk in general. It would probably turn out similar to the lines of trading another prime time offensive talent for a starting pitcher with some very good stuff.

757690
07-12-2011, 09:50 PM
If the Reds are going to lose Votto in 2013, then they'll probably lose Jimenez around then too. And if not, it will only be because he's not very food any more.

Two and half years is plenty to control a player.

mdccclxix
07-12-2011, 10:01 PM
Look, it's about winning now. The Reds haven't sustained winning in for-ev-er. The fans deserve it. The Reds organization needs it. Attendance needs it. It's time. It's not time to trade the reigning MVP, that's for sure. Add a top flight pitcher, contend in 2011 and 2012, see where we are in 2013. Luckily, the Reds can afford a "win now" approach and still have a wealth of prospects afterwards.

757690
07-12-2011, 10:16 PM
I'm not sure the Rockies consider Stubbs a big enough improvement over Fowler to want him. Both are young guys who are having an off year so far. Stubbs is better defensively, but don't think either one's bat is a guarantee.

I also think the Rockies would love to get two of Bailey, Wood, Volquez and Leake in the trade. I think all four are valued about the same. All have questions, but very high ceilings, with the ones with more questions having higher ceilings. They would probably want one of Bailey and Volquez, and one of Wood and Leake.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-12-2011, 10:18 PM
You could potentially turn one SP into 3-4 starting ballplayers. That's a tough return to pass up -- especially if your baseball people tell you "We can fix Edinson Volquez."

We do have a ton of prospects, so I guess we could be perfect trade partners. I think if Walt can swing this he HAS GOT to pull the trigger. This a no-brainer deal. If it can help the Rockies, great, but I can't imagine them letting Ubaldo go.

If this deal happens I think it would be on the level of when we got Griffey as far as my excitement level goes.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-12-2011, 10:19 PM
Now... Straight swap -- Jimenez for Votto. Assuming (which you never can) that Ubaldo checks out medically, who else besides me would at least consider this deal?

Sign me up for that deal!

And I wouldn't think twice about it (and I'm a huge Votto fan).

edit to add: Votto would destroy Coors.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-12-2011, 10:23 PM
The Reds are a perennial bottom division club without Votto. Numbers are meaningless. A contending team needs a consistent plus plus bat to anchor the lineup in order to contend. Maybe if the Reds had the Phillies pitching they could contend without Votto, but not as currently constructed.

The Giants proved what pitching can do for you.

So you replace Votto with Alonso. What you lose in run production would easily be made up with a stud accounting for 1/6 of your innings pitched over a season.

Plus Votto is only guaranteed to be here for two more years and 1B is one of the easier position to replace with a big bat. Heck Neftali Soto could be tearing it up in two years.

757690
07-12-2011, 10:29 PM
The Giants proved what pitching can do for you.

So you replace Votto with Alonso. What you lose in run production would easily be made up with a stud accounting for 1/6 of your innings pitched over a season.

Plus Votto is only guaranteed to be here for two more years and 1B is one of the easier position to replace with a big bat. Heck Neftali Soto could be tearing it up in two years.

Like you said, who knows what the Reds will look like in 2013, so why make a trade that hurts the team now for a what if situation then?

Votto is the reigning MVP and the heart of the lineup. You're not filling the 1B position when you lose Votto, you are filling that role. No way that gets filled by a rookie.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-12-2011, 10:31 PM
Like you said, who knows what the Reds will look like in 2013, so why make a trade that hurts the team now for a what if situation then?

I don't think the trade hurts the team now. I think it helps the team now and going forward.

nemesis
07-12-2011, 10:31 PM
Votto is untouchable til next year this time IMO.

Then I want a team to back up the truck for him. Definitely not just one player for one player. Teams like the Reds can't do that.

I'd would offer Volquez, Corcino, Sappelt and Alonso and take Wiggington off the books as well. Gives the Rockies a bigger payroll flex next year and the Reds a LF/3B option.

They could have 1 more B prospect, hitter or pitcher, not named Yorman or Billy.

Griffey012
07-12-2011, 11:04 PM
I'm not sure the Rockies consider Stubbs a big enough improvement over Fowler to want him. Both are young guys who are having an off year so far. Stubbs is better defensively, but don't think either one's bat is a guarantee.

I also think the Rockies would love to get two of Bailey, Wood, Volquez and Leake in the trade. I think all four are valued about the same. All have questions, but very high ceilings, with the ones with more questions having higher ceilings. They would probably want one of Bailey and Volquez, and one of Wood and Leake.

Really? The Rockies demoted Fowler to AAA and he didn't hit well, Stubbs has had some ups and downs but has never been close to a demotion. Not to mention Fowler's a speedy guy, and he is 2/8 on steals.

schroomytunes
07-12-2011, 11:18 PM
I think it would take Volquez, Wood, Boxberger and D.Joseph to get a deal done!

BuckeyeRedleg
07-12-2011, 11:27 PM
I think it would take Volquez, Wood, Boxberger and D.Joseph to get a deal done!

That would be better than dealing Votto.

Sign me up for that one too.

reds44
07-12-2011, 11:39 PM
There is a better chance I start for the Reds on Thursday than Votto is traded this year.

Yes, I know the Reds don't play Thursday.

No, that's not hyperbole.

cinreds21
07-12-2011, 11:40 PM
Well I did hear a rumor that you were getting called up.

757690
07-12-2011, 11:43 PM
Really? The Rockies demoted Fowler to AAA and he didn't hit well, Stubbs has had some ups and downs but has never been close to a demotion. Not to mention Fowler's a speedy guy, and he is 2/8 on steals.

Stubbs' defense is the only thing that has prevented that.

Don't get me wrong, Stubbs is better than Fowler, but I'm not sure he solves the CF issue for the Rockies, at least not enough to justify a Jimenez trade.

mth123
07-13-2011, 12:19 AM
I'm not sure the Rockies consider Stubbs a big enough improvement over Fowler to want him. Both are young guys who are having an off year so far. Stubbs is better defensively, but don't think either one's bat is a guarantee.

I also think the Rockies would love to get two of Bailey, Wood, Volquez and Leake in the trade. I think all four are valued about the same. All have questions, but very high ceilings, with the ones with more questions having higher ceilings. They would probably want one of Bailey and Volquez, and one of Wood and Leake.

I can't imagine the Rockies would place a lot of value on:

1. A guy who has been on the DL with shoulder issues 3 times in less a year's time or

2. A guy who hasn't re-established himself after major arm surgery and is having issues with the long ball.

Think about it. If some team had a guy who was a top prospect 4 or 5 years ago, had never really etablished himself in a big league rotation and had been on the DL with shoulder problems 3 times in the last year would you give more than a fringe minor leaguer? It might be a guy you'd be willing to try to steal on a flyer, but not somebody you consider a primary piece in a deal for your ace.

757690
07-13-2011, 01:05 AM
I can't imagine the Rockies would place a lot of value on:

1. A guy who has been on the DL with shoulder issues 3 times in less a year's time or

2. A guy who hasn't re-established himself after major arm surgery and is having issues with the long ball.

Think about it. If some team had a guy who was a top prospect 4 or 5 years ago, had never really etablished himself in a big league rotation and had been on the DL with shoulder problems 3 times in the last year would you give more than a fringe minor leaguer? It might be a guy you'd be willing to try to steal on a flyer, but not somebody you consider a primary piece in a deal for your ace.

If they are going to trade Jimenez, they are not going to get another Jimenez back.

They will be trading one piece for many pieces. These many pieces will not be sure things, they will all have some risk, or else no one would trade them together for just one player.

For Jimenez, the Rockies are going to get either a high ceiling but with questions guy (Bailey, Volquez, Hughes, Porcello, Scherzer, McDonald) or a lower ceiling guy with less questions (Leake, Wood, Maholm, Nova), or both.

They likely will be getting two pitchers and a plus prospect. None of these guys will be as valuable as Jimenez on their own. They all will be risks, or low ceiling guys. Otherwise, the trade makes no sense.

Slyder
07-13-2011, 01:15 AM
Why is Volquez a cornerstone? Teams that want him are going to want him to be the additional piece, not the main piece.

mth123
07-13-2011, 01:39 AM
If they are going to trade Jimenez, they are not going to get another Jimenez back.

They will be trading one piece for many pieces. These many pieces will not be sure things, they will all have some risk, or else no one would trade them together for just one player.

For Jimenez, the Rockies are going to get either a high ceiling but with questions guy (Bailey, Volquez, Hughes, Porcello, Scherzer, McDonald) or a lower ceiling guy with less questions (Leake, Wood, Maholm, Nova), or both.

They likely will be getting two pitchers and a plus prospect. None of these guys will be as valuable as Jimenez on their own. They all will be risks, or low ceiling guys. Otherwise, the trade makes no sense.



That's why I think they would want Leake and Wood and not Volquez or Bailey. All 4 are questions, but Bailey in particular is an injury question and I don't think they would view him as an option in a deal for their ace (unless he was thrown in as a 5th guy or something). I can't see them dealing Ubaldo anyway, but they certainly don't want to deal him and end up with a guy on the DL in return when he's been on the DL so frequently over the last year. They have a supportive fanbase and IMO wouldn't want to risk this being viewed as a salary dump for an injury that will be percieved as easy to see coming. Even if they think Bailey is past his issues, I don't see them taking on that risk.

cinreds21
07-18-2011, 12:45 PM
The "latest" on the Dominican right hander via Mlbtraderumors:


We've read estimates ranging from a 10 to 25% chance that Rockies ace Ubaldo Jimenez is traded this month. Rockies GM Dan O'Dowd said yesterday "it would have to be a Herschel Walker deal." Given Jimenez's extremely team-friendly contract, and the fact that he has more value to the Rockies than any other team due to the nature of his 2014 club option, I can't see him being traded. What young pre-arbitration pitcher would be the centerpiece? My reservations aside, here are today's Jimenez rumors...

Yankees catcher Jesus Montero will not be the centerpiece of a Jimenez deal, a person with ties to the Rockies tells SI's Jon Heyman (Twitter link). That makes sense, especially if the Rockies view Montero as a future first baseman. The real question is whether O'Dowd is keen on the idea of 20-year-old southpaw Manny Banuelos as the key player, and whether the Yankees would part with him and plenty of other top prospects or young players.

I(heart)Freel
07-18-2011, 01:03 PM
Well I did hear a rumor that you were getting called up.

If you heard it, it must be so.

Edd Roush
07-18-2011, 01:56 PM
The "latest" on the Dominican right hander via Mlbtraderumors:

The Reds can trump pretty much any offer the Yankees give, correct?

If they have one high-level arm that may interest the Rockies, the Reds could definitely beat it with some of the packages that we have already discussed. Granted, the "Hershel Walker" deal went much better for the receiving party (the Cowboys) than it did for the party giving away "the future" (the Vikings). I still think the Reds should exhaustively pursue such a deal.

If the Reds could deal for Ubaldo without giving up any of the rotation or any of the lineup (save maybe Heisey/Stubbs), they absolutely have to try. They will go from a team with a chance at the playoffs to a team with a chance at another ring. Ubaldo is absolutely worth the price you would have to pay. Votto, Bruce and Cueto are the only ones I wouldn't include in the right deal.

REDREAD
07-18-2011, 02:41 PM
A catching prospect with a good stick (Grandal) is infinitely more valuable than a guy (Heisey) who has profiled as a 4th outfielder for most of his professional career.

That's just my take, though.

True, but we are listing them in order of reluctance to trade.
It is assumed that we get "Fair value" for them.
So Grandal would probably net us more than Heisey.

Right now, Heisey is infinitely more valuable to us than Grandal. He's a nice safety net for the OF.. Meanwhile, Grandal is a few years away.

Caveat Emperor
07-18-2011, 03:03 PM
rivals believe #reds equipped to trade for top reliever and/or jimenez. ubaldo package could be: alonso/wood/volquez

Sign me up.

Brutus
07-18-2011, 03:03 PM
Sign me up.

If that's the package, "this" times two.

HokieRed
07-18-2011, 03:05 PM
Can't believe Colo. would do that

reds44
07-18-2011, 03:05 PM
There's no way that would be it. I'll literally crap myself if we get him for that.

reds44
07-18-2011, 03:06 PM
Does anybody remember/know exactly what our Cliff Lee offer was last year? I know it was Alonso and Wood but what else?

Caveat Emperor
07-18-2011, 03:07 PM
Someone once made the incredibly astute observation on this board (and if it's you, please speak up so I can give you credit):

Whenever one of these deals gets made (big time pitcher /hitter being dealt midseason), it seems like the reaction afterwards is always "Really, that's all it took?"

GMs ask for the sun, the moon, and the stars in these deals, and it seems like most are lucky to end up with a few nice asteroids in return.

Brutus
07-18-2011, 03:09 PM
Someone once made the incredibly astute observation on this board (and if it's you, please speak up so I can give you credit):

Whenever one of these deals gets made (big time pitcher /hitter being dealt midseason), it seems like the reaction afterwards is always "Really, that's all it took?"

GMs ask for the sun, the moon, and the stars in these deals, and it seems like most are lucky to end up with a few nice asteroids in return.

That was actually me :)

reds44
07-18-2011, 03:09 PM
If that's all it took, the Reds could try to flip Grandal and Frazier for Beltran (or whoever) while still holding onto Ramon and getting two draft picks for him in the offseason.

REDREAD
07-18-2011, 03:13 PM
alonso/wood/volquez

This would actually be a pretty nice package for the Rockies, IMO.

Of course, it is just excess pieces for us.

Look at it from the Rockies point of view.. 2 young cheap starting pitchers with potential. Heck, Wood is pretty solid. They have time to try to "Fix" Volquez, and maybe the change of scenery would do Volquez good (just like when he arrived here). Alonso is a solid position player bat.

That's 2 pretty solid players, plus a high upside "project" (Volquez).
Pretty good haul when compared against historical returns.

reds44
07-18-2011, 03:14 PM
Yeah, I guess I could see the Rockies doing it because they get 3 major league ready players, all of which have big time upside.

Like redread said, maybe we're undervaluing that.

757690
07-18-2011, 03:17 PM
Does anybody remember/know exactly what our Cliff Lee offer was last year? I know it was Alonso and Wood but what else?

Not much else, if what the M's got from the Rangers is an indication.

Alonso/Wood/Volquez would be more than any team has gotten for just one player since the infamous Colon for Sizemore/Phillips/Lee trade. And it would be a great deal for the Reds.

Brutus
07-18-2011, 03:28 PM
Someone once made the incredibly astute observation on this board (and if it's you, please speak up so I can give you credit):

Whenever one of these deals gets made (big time pitcher /hitter being dealt midseason), it seems like the reaction afterwards is always "Really, that's all it took?"

GMs ask for the sun, the moon, and the stars in these deals, and it seems like most are lucky to end up with a few nice asteroids in return.

Though I've probably said it a few times, perhaps more directly as you remember it, here might be the one you're referring to:

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2302471&highlight=greinke#post2302471


Everyone fretting the Reds would have to give up too much to get Greinke, I ask you this:

When was the last time a team got a big time player and everyone thought they overpaid?

If you look at the trades around baseball lately, including the reported Gonzalez trade and all the other blockbusters lately, I can't say there's been one time where a team got a real good player and had to give up a ransom to do it. In other words, if the Reds get Greinke, I don't think it will cost as much as this board is discussing.

LoganBuck
07-18-2011, 03:35 PM
The original post about Heyman's twitter has me intrigued:


John Heyman's Twitter
rivals believe #reds equipped to trade for top reliever and/or jimenez. ubaldo package could be: alonso/wood/volquez

Whoa! Hold the phone a second "and/or" what are we talking about there? Top reliever and Jimenez?

traderumor
07-18-2011, 03:42 PM
Someone once made the incredibly astute observation on this board (and if it's you, please speak up so I can give you credit):

Whenever one of these deals gets made (big time pitcher /hitter being dealt midseason), it seems like the reaction afterwards is always "Really, that's all it took?"

GMs ask for the sun, the moon, and the stars in these deals, and it seems like most are lucky to end up with a few nice asteroids in return.The last one I remember seeming a bit steep was when the O's pried Adam Jones away from Seattle in the Bedard deal.

cinreds21
07-18-2011, 03:51 PM
The only thing I don't like about the deal is I'd rather give up Leake or Bailey instead of Wood only because the latter is left handed.

REDREAD
07-18-2011, 03:54 PM
The only thing I don't like about the deal is I'd rather give up Leake or Bailey instead of Wood only because the latter is left handed.

I value Leake more than Homer or Wood. He's getting the job done and staying healthy.

Given a choice, I'd rather give up Wood.. Wood was fantastic last year, but let's face it, he didn't really start dominating until he got the cutter.. Now he is back to normalish again.. Could it be the league has figure him out? I think Wood will be a solid #3 guy, but I think Homer (if healthy) has a bigger upside at this point.. That said, I'd gladly give them Homer instead of Wood if that's who they wanted.

Caveat Emperor
07-18-2011, 03:54 PM
The only thing I don't like about the deal is I'd rather give up Leake or Bailey instead of Wood only because the latter is left handed.

So was Ron Villone, but I don't have sleepless nights over the deal that sent him to Colorado.

For a starting pitcher, I'll take talent and projection over handedness 99 days out of 100.

lollipopcurve
07-18-2011, 03:55 PM
I'd rather give up Leake or Bailey instead of Wood only because the latter is left handed.

Disagree. The handedness is secondary. If the Reds have to sacrifice 2 starters to get Jimenez (from among Leake/Wood/Bailey/Cueto/Volquez), Wood and Volquez are the 2 I'd prefer to see go. Not sure I'd do the deal if it were any other combo.

11larkin11
07-18-2011, 03:55 PM
I cannot believe that's all it would take for Ubaldo. If thats it, Ubaldo should be starting tomorrow night in Pittsburgh.

Brutus
07-18-2011, 04:02 PM
The only thing I don't like about the deal is I'd rather give up Leake or Bailey instead of Wood only because the latter is left handed.

If the Reds still intend at making Chapman a starter, that problem would solve itself anyhow :D

IslandRed
07-18-2011, 04:10 PM
Someone once made the incredibly astute observation on this board (and if it's you, please speak up so I can give you credit):

Whenever one of these deals gets made (big time pitcher /hitter being dealt midseason), it seems like the reaction afterwards is always "Really, that's all it took?"

GMs ask for the sun, the moon, and the stars in these deals, and it seems like most are lucky to end up with a few nice asteroids in return.

True enough. But in most cases, the big-time player being moved is either making a lot of money or will be a free agent in relatively short order. Or both. Move a bunch of money, cash in a depreciating trade chip... other factors are facilitating those trades.

In this case, the player is not expensive (relatively speaking) or about to walk anytime soon. From the Rockies' perspective, the only incentive for trading Jimenez is getting back even more than he's worth.

Having said that, I would go for the names Heyman threw out. I'm not sure the Rockies would.

lollipopcurve
07-18-2011, 04:10 PM
I cannot believe that's all it would take for Ubaldo.

He hasn't been the same guy he was in the first half of 2010. Since mid-2010, an ERA of about 4. This guy is not a dominant pitcher any more. Good, not dominant.

Mario-Rijo
07-18-2011, 04:27 PM
He hasn't been the same guy he was in the first half of 2010. Since mid-2010, an ERA of about 4. This guy is not a dominant pitcher any more. Good, not dominant.

The past 2 months his era has been 2ish, which no doubt is why he is being shopped, his own team doesn't trust him to continue success. I actually think O'Dowd is just gauging the market for him. But if he can get a haul (in his modest opinion) then he will jump on it. Ubaldo's mechanics lend themself to his inconsistencies. If when he is on he is unhittable and when he is not he can mostly keep you in the game, he's an upgrade for this team.

As far as what to deal for him I am in with exception of Mes and I'd like to hold on to Sappelt and Hamilton also but a little less so. I do recall Juan Francisco is a guy Colorado has always liked since O'Dowd has been there. Francisco/Wood/Volquez or Alonso/Wood/Volquez or Volquez/Francisco/Alonso etc, heck they can even throw Grandal on top of the deal if they want (though I'd try to keep Wood in that scenario).

Brutus
07-18-2011, 04:32 PM
He hasn't been the same guy he was in the first half of 2010. Since mid-2010, an ERA of about 4. This guy is not a dominant pitcher any more. Good, not dominant.

I would argue he's been about the same pitcher. The first half of 2010 his ERA was way, way unsustainable, especially compared to his FIP. At the time, when he was carrying an ERA in the low 1's, his FIP was more like 2.5-2.8.

His FIP last year was 3.10 and it's 3.42 this year. His xFIP was 3.60 and this year it's 3.59.

Point is... he's really mostly the same pitcher he was. He's just not sporting the lucky 1.20 ERA anymore.

lollipopcurve
07-18-2011, 04:39 PM
Point is... he's really mostly the same pitcher he was. He's just not sporting the lucky 1.20 ERA anymore.

Per reports, fastball velocity down, slider velocity down.

Mario-Rijo
07-18-2011, 04:45 PM
Per reports, fastball velocity down, slider velocity down.

True but he is still throwing 93, he was throwing 96ish. Not sure if that means he is headed for an injury or he is just trying to throw a little less hard to try to compensate for control/command. Joe Magrane did a breakdown on him yesterday on MLB and he is missing his spots at times due to his funky delivery.

Benihana
07-18-2011, 04:47 PM
I cannot believe that's all it would take for Ubaldo. If thats it, Ubaldo should be starting tomorrow night in Pittsburgh.

Agreed.

fearofpopvol1
07-18-2011, 05:00 PM
Not to pat myself on the back, but...


Would the Rockies accept Alonso, Volquez and 1 of Bailey/Wood/Leake?

If so, I would do this deal and wouldn't think about it for 1 second.

If this is all it would take, Walt should have Ubaldo on a plane now. I tend to like Wood just a pinch more than Leake, but they're pretty similar in my eyes and if that's what it takes to land Ubaldo, then bye-bye Wood.

RedsManRick
07-18-2011, 05:01 PM
That would be an awesome deal. For those worried about him regressing, it's true that he's lost some velocity, but his performance hasn't really suffered. Comparing his 2010 ERA to his ERA so far this year is an exercise in the value of neutralized stats.



Year Age IP K/9 BB/9 HR/9 BABIP ERA FIP xFIP SIERA
2007 23 82.0 7.5 4.1 1.10 .258 4.28 4.74 4.49 4.51
2008 24 198.2 7.8 4.7 0.50 .299 3.99 3.83 4.16 4.31
2009 25 218.0 8.2 3.5 0.54 .280 3.47 3.36 3.59 3.77
2010 26 221.2 8.7 3.7 0.41 .271 2.88 3.10 3.60 3.68
2011 27 110.1 8.1 3.5 0.65 .297 4.08 3.42 3.59 3.64

This is basically the same guy he's been the last few years. Over the course of 110 IP, you're liable to see some pretty major fluctuations in ERA based on BABIP-luck, timing, etc. But the skill-based measures of performance show a guy who took a big step forward control-wise in 2009 and has been very consistent since.

One thing that does look seriously different is his repertoire. It may just be the vagaries of the PitchFx pitch classification system, but he's gone from throwing 60-70%+ regular fastballs to splitting that 60-70% across 4-seamers, cutters, and splitters. Perhaps it's not that he's lost velocity but simply that he's "pitching" more now which involves not simply throwing seeds 70% of the time.

LoganBuck
07-18-2011, 05:07 PM
Gammons just said Yankees unlikely to make a trade for Jimenez on MLB Network

Brian Cashman thinks asking price is too high.

IslandRed
07-18-2011, 05:08 PM
I cannot believe that's all it would take for Ubaldo. If thats it, Ubaldo should be starting tomorrow night in Pittsburgh.

Even if Colorado would take that offer, I bet they'll give the other buyers plenty of time to think about topping it. There's no hurry from their perspective.

lollipopcurve
07-18-2011, 05:12 PM
That would be an awesome deal. For those worried about him regressing, it's true that he's lost some velocity, but his performance hasn't really suffered. Comparing his 2010 ERA to his ERA so far this year is an exercise in the value of neutralized stats.

Code:
Year Age IP K/9 BB/9 HR/9 BABIP ERA FIP xFIP SIERA
2007 23 82.0 7.5 4.1 1.10 .258 4.28 4.74 4.49 4.51
2008 24 198.2 7.8 4.7 0.50 .299 3.99 3.83 4.16 4.31
2009 25 218.0 8.2 3.5 0.54 .280 3.47 3.36 3.59 3.77
2010 26 221.2 8.7 3.7 0.41 .271 2.88 3.10 3.60 3.68
2011 27 110.1 8.1 3.5 0.65 .297 4.08 3.42 3.59 3.64
This is basically the same guy he's been the last few years. Over the course of 110 IP, you're liable to see some pretty major fluctuations in ERA based on BABIP-luck, timing, etc.

One thing that does look seriously different is his repertoire. It may just be the vagaries of the PitchFx pitch classification system, but he's gone from throwing 60-70%+ regular fastballs to splitting that 60-70% across 4-seamers, cutters, and splitters. Perhaps it's not that he's lost velocity but simply that he's "pitching" more now which involves not simply throwing seeds 70% of the time.

I'll buy this. Still, not a true ace. There may be a bit of overrating going on based on his 15-1 start in 2010. He's good, not dominant. Mix in his very poor mechanics, and this is not a guy you empty the farm for. What's exceptional is his contract. I do like the Volquez/Wood/Alonso or Francisco idea.

BearcatShane
07-18-2011, 05:32 PM
If Im Colorado I ask for either Stubbs or heisey in addition to Volquez, Alonso and Wood.

mace
07-18-2011, 05:36 PM
There was a pretty good story about Jimenez and his situation in the Denver Post.

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_18493113

In terms of his current wherewithal, I thought the operative paragraphs were these:

Jimenez's season got off on the wrong foot for a number of reasons. He didn't do the same throwing program over the winter. Then his catch-up period was interrupted by thumb cuticle and groin injuries in spring training. The thumb affected his confidence. He wasn't sure where the ball was going when it left his hand. And it wasn't going as fast because he was still building up arm strength.

"Now I am almost there. I am getting to 95 miles per hour consistently. You are going to see more, I promise you that," Jimenez said.

reds44
07-18-2011, 05:40 PM
If Im Colorado I ask for either Stubbs or heisey in addition to Volquez, Alonso and Wood.
I agree with you that I'd be asking for more, but honestly four major league ready players might be too steep for the Reds liking. I would be asking for a guy like Grandal if I was the Rockies.

lollipopcurve
07-18-2011, 05:40 PM
If Im Colorado I ask for either Stubbs or heisey in addition to Volquez, Alonso and Wood.

Pretty certain the Rox would want a CF, and the Reds have surplus there. Could be Stubbs, Heisey or Sappelt. I'd think the Reds would get more than Jimenez back for that, though.

hebroncougar
07-18-2011, 05:45 PM
Pretty certain the Rox would want a CF, and the Reds have surplus there. Could be Stubbs, Heisey or Sappelt. I'd think the Reds would get more than Jimenez back for that, though.

Maybe that's where the reliever comes in? Maybe Huston Street? MLBTR has him available as well.

kaldaniels
07-18-2011, 06:00 PM
Ace is an subjective term, but I put Jimenez in the ace category. Easily a top 10 pitcher in the NL...and a case could be made for top 5.

Brutus
07-18-2011, 06:06 PM
My opinion: getting Ubaldo and a deal for Adams or Bell and Ludwick would make the Reds the favorites to win the central, and a playoff rotation of any 3-4 of Ubaldo, Cueto, Bailey, Leake/Arroyo could most definitely give them a better shot than they had last year of advancing.

Benihana
07-18-2011, 06:34 PM
Pretty certain the Rox would want a CF, and the Reds have surplus there. Could be Stubbs, Heisey or Sappelt. I'd think the Reds would get more than Jimenez back for that, though.

I'd add Sappelt if they'd throw in Street and $5MM.

They'll likely not have use for an expensive closer until after he's a FA anyway. He's due $2+MM the rest of this year, and $7.5MM next year with a $500K buyout.

Spitball
07-19-2011, 12:28 AM
@SI_JonHeymanJon Heyman

rivals believe #reds equipped to trade for top reliever and/or jimenez. ubaldo package could be: alonso/wood/volquez

mth123
07-19-2011, 12:49 AM
I don't see why the Rockies would want Alonso or Grandal. If they would take Wood, Volquez and Sappelt I'd do it. Sub Heisey or Stubbs for Sappelt and I'd probably still do it but of the three would rather deal Sappelt and keep Stubbs and Heisey. I think it will take Stubbs.

11larkin11
07-19-2011, 02:02 AM
I don't see why the Rockies would want Alonso or Grandal. If they would take Wood, Volquez and Sappelt I'd do it. Sub Heisey or Stubbs for Sappelt and I'd probably still do it but of the three would rather deal Sappelt and keep Stubbs and Heisey. I think it will take Stubbs.

I'm not sure why they wouldn't want Alonso. He's ML ready, Todd Helton isn't exactly a spring chicken, they have no Top Prospects at 1st, and he could play that small LF in Coors until Helton is ready to go or gets hurt.

WVRedsFan
07-19-2011, 02:06 AM
Pitching is really not the problem with this team. Tonight, they had great pitching. Offense is needed big time.

Slyder
07-19-2011, 02:26 AM
Pitching is really not the problem with this team. Tonight, they had great pitching. Offense is needed big time.

In the playoffs is where the lack of pitching should show. We have 1 guy right now that I have any faith in (Cueto). After that you have health concerns (Bailey), Age concerns (Arroyo), and head concerns (Volquez). A pitcher like Ubaldo at least gives you another arm you can almost certainly be assured isn't going to go out there with a deer in headlights look and get crushed.

Any prospect outside of Mes would be on the table for me. That includes our OF like Stubbs, Heisey, Saffelt, and any pitcher not named Cueto (that includes Chapman but they probably won't be interested because of cost).

mdccclxix
07-19-2011, 02:32 AM
Pitching is really not the problem with this team. Tonight, they had great pitching. Offense is needed big time.

Pittsburgh is a pretty bad team offensively, so seeing good pitching was reassuring.

The Reds ERA in July is still 4.64, and the starters are 5.27. Their offense is still above league average in July, although they aren't performing great, or even to their potential. I think Bruce is about to pop off soon, so we could be in for a ride, hopefully.

CrackerJack
07-19-2011, 03:08 AM
In the playoffs is where the lack of pitching should show. We have 1 guy right now that I have any faith in (Cueto). After that you have health concerns (Bailey), Age concerns (Arroyo), and head concerns (Volquez). A pitcher like Ubaldo at least gives you another arm you can almost certainly be assured isn't going to go out there with a deer in headlights look and get crushed.

Any prospect outside of Mes would be on the table for me. That includes our OF like Stubbs, Heisey, Saffelt, and any pitcher not named Cueto (that includes Chapman but they probably won't be interested because of cost).

It's almost an equal contribution this month, with the offense not scoring more than 3 runs 7 times already. If they aren't getting pitching, they aren't getting offense. They are 2 below .500 and haven't won more than one game in a row since mid-June, which is just stupid. Their pitching will "never" be good enough to afford waiting around for one player to go on a one-week (or two) hot streak every 2 months.

(i'm not disagreeing with you at all btw)

They need another starter, another "good" BP arm, and a cleanup hitter - they aren't going to get those 3 things now and should've addressed at least two of them in the off-season.

I think we're stuck hoping they get it together by some miracle, and maybe Walt picks up a BP arm or a bat like Ludwick.

But I'd be fine with giving up whatever for Ubaldo or a bonafide cleanup hitter, just not counting on it. If they drop out, they need to do some selling and break this team up a bit though, get rid of all the chaffe lying around.

BearcatShane
07-19-2011, 04:11 AM
If the Reds drop out the only guys they should consider selling are Cordero, Cairo, Ramon and Gomes. And if we do drop out id still love to land Ubaldo for next year.

mth123
07-19-2011, 05:05 AM
I'm not sure why they wouldn't want Alonso. He's ML ready, Todd Helton isn't exactly a spring chicken, they have no Top Prospects at 1st, and he could play that small LF in Coors until Helton is ready to go or gets hurt.

Helton has an .896 OPS and is signed through 2013. Alonso would be in the same situation in Colorado as he is here. Coors has a huge OF. If he could really play LF, he should be playing it here.

membengal
07-19-2011, 07:17 AM
mth, Helton is 37 with a long injury history. This year has been nice for him, but an abberration since he hit his mid 30s and not one likely to be repeated.

REDREAD
07-19-2011, 10:31 AM
The Rockies could always re-trade Alonso or another Reds prospect which they have a duplicate of.

If they are trading U Jimmeniz, they are in talent gathering mode.
It makes more sense for them to ask for Alonso in a trade, as opposed to a marginal guy like Frasier, even if they have no immediate use for Alonso.

Homer Bailey
07-19-2011, 11:00 AM
Pitching is really not the problem with this team. Tonight, they had great pitching. Offense is needed big time.

The Reds are first in the NL in runs, and last in FIP, and pitching is not the problem?

This is why people can't overreact to one game.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-19-2011, 11:31 AM
The Reds are first in the NL in runs, and last in FIP, and pitching is not the problem?

This is why people can't overreact to one game.

One game? Really?

Just take the last three games if you don't want to acknowledge the offensive woes of at least the last month and a half. Last three games: 1 run, 3 runs, 0 runs. Clearly this offense has issues, as even DatdudeBP has admitted.

BP's tweet after game last night: "#NoExcuses Like I said RISP is killing us! DAMN"

pahster
07-19-2011, 11:43 AM
One game? Really?

Just take the last three games if you don't want to acknowledge the offensive woes of at least the last month and a half. Last three games: 1 run, 3 runs, 0 runs. Clearly this offense has issues, as even DatdudeBP has admitted.

BP's tweet after game last night: "#NoExcuses Like I said RISP is killing us! DAMN"

Looking at three games isn't much better than looking at one. The Reds are first in the the NL in runs scored. They're fifth in the majors, and that's without the benefit of having a DH. Improving the offense would be nice, but it shouldn't be prioritized over improving the Reds' terrible rotation.

RichRed
07-19-2011, 11:52 AM
Looking at three games isn't much better than looking at one. The Reds are first in the the NL in runs scored. They're fifth in the majors, and that's without the benefit of having a DH. Improving the offense would be nice, but it shouldn't be prioritized over improving the Reds' terrible rotation.

Not only that, but they're 4th in the NL in OPS w/RISP. Any recent struggles are more likely a blip than anything systemic.

Caveat Emperor
07-19-2011, 04:51 PM
RT @DKnobler Reds are still interested in Ubaldo. Also Wandy. But they're also looking at leadoff hitters: Figgins, Crisp


I hate the name Wandy. I don't know that I can ever root for a Red named "Wandy."

Oh, and I wouldn't trade someone else's used bag of baseballs for Chone Figgins.

cinreds21
07-19-2011, 05:48 PM
I used to be a huge fan of Figgy but yuck now. Crisp might not be terrible.

GAC
07-19-2011, 05:52 PM
I have no problem acquiring Jimenez one bit; but if they don't find another bat, a clean-up guy, this team is going to have a hard time, IMO, winning the division this year.

mth123
07-19-2011, 07:37 PM
The Rockies could always re-trade Alonso or another Reds prospect which they have a duplicate of.

If they are trading U Jimmeniz, they are in talent gathering mode.
It makes more sense for them to ask for Alonso in a trade, as opposed to a marginal guy like Frasier, even if they have no immediate use for Alonso.

I don't think they'd take less talent than Alonso. They'd want Stubbs, Wood and Leake IMO. Maybe more. I doubt they want Alonso or Grandal just to re-deal them. They won't get anything as good as Jiminez for them. It doesn't make sense.

Griffey012
07-19-2011, 10:32 PM
How about using Chapman to acquire Jimenez?

Here is my reasoning...Chapman is under relatively cheap control for 4 more season that escalates with performance, I believe. He is still entirely unknown and unproven as a starter. He is dominant in the bullpen. The value of a proven and pretty cheap TOR starter is way more than that of a dominant closer. With Ubaldo we do not have to wait for him to develop, he is already there. The odds of Chapman outproducing Ubaldo over the next 4.5 seasons is unlikely.

OldXOhio
07-19-2011, 11:22 PM
I have no problem acquiring Jimenez one bit; but if they don't find another bat, a clean-up guy, this team is going to have a hard time, IMO, winning the division this year.

You can acquire Jimenez and still sell. Eventually the rotation will need a hammer. If one's available grab him.

IslandRed
07-20-2011, 12:08 AM
You can acquire Jimenez and still sell. Eventually the rotation will need a hammer. If one's available grab him.

The same thing had occurred to me. Given Jimenez' contract status, the wisdom of acquiring him is standings-independent. The ability to acquire him isn't necessarily standings-independent, though, depending on what players Colorado would demand.

LoganBuck
07-20-2011, 12:30 AM
Tracy Ringolsby via Twitter
Jerry Walker, top aide to Cincy GM Walt Jocketty, at Coors Field tonight. Ubaldo Jimenez is pitching for Rockies. Coincidence? Yeah, right.

HotCorner
07-20-2011, 12:33 AM
The plot thickens.

cinreds21
07-20-2011, 12:33 AM
Walt and every GM's top people are all over the US (and Toronto) looking at every possibility. It's nothing unusual, especially for this time of the year.

RedsManRick
07-20-2011, 12:35 AM
I predict he comes home with Ian Stewart or Houston Street.

cinreds21
07-20-2011, 12:35 AM
I predict he comes home with Ian Stewart or Houston Street.

Eww.

JaxRed
07-20-2011, 12:36 AM
I predict he comes home with Ian Stewart or Houston Street.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. :)

WVRedsFan
07-20-2011, 12:36 AM
Walt has long spouted that he likes to build teams on pitching and defense. That being the case, I feel that an offer will be made. Probably that will be as far as it goes. In the meantime, we get shutout for a third time. Seriously :).

JaxRed
07-20-2011, 12:39 AM
How about using Chapman to acquire Jimenez?
.

I actually would be okay with that. We are so badly allocating that asset, that if it was Chapman and a spare part like Alonso, I would have no problems.

I would not trade Leake.

Caveat Emperor
07-20-2011, 12:56 AM
The plot thickens.

If the Reds want him, he's theirs. It's just a question of where Walt's line is on dealing young talent.

reds44
07-20-2011, 01:07 AM
Really, I would do Wood, Alonso, Frazier, and Heisey to get him.

Swap Stubbs for Heisey, I'd still do it.

signalhome
07-20-2011, 01:13 AM
Not that there's anything wrong with that. :)

‪Seinfeld (the we're not gay promo)‬‏ - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ild8w0rHQU)

Brutus
07-20-2011, 01:25 AM
Walt and every GM's top people are all over the US (and Toronto) looking at every possibility. It's nothing unusual, especially for this time of the year.

When you start getting personal assistants out looking at someone for the GM, though, it's serious business. The organization's advanced scouts are doing most of the legwork early in the process. But when you start getting the personal aids going somewhere, it definitely marks a serious level of interest.

This is obviously no guaranteed precursor that a trade is imminent, but I do find it to be descriptive of where in discussions they are.

cinreds21
07-20-2011, 01:32 AM
When you start getting personal assistants out looking at someone for the GM, though, it's serious business. The organization's advanced scouts are doing most of the legwork early in the process. But when you start getting the personal aids going somewhere, it definitely marks a serious level of interest.

This is obviously no guaranteed precursor that a trade is imminent, but I do find it to be descriptive of where in discussions they are.

Well in that case, I haven't been assigned anywhere yet :(


:)

oregonred
07-20-2011, 02:02 AM
I actually would be okay with that. We are so badly allocating that asset, that if it was Chapman and a spare part like Alonso, I would have no problems. I would not trade Leake.

Good thinking. Agree all the way. Chapman should be moved, before the Reds mismanage year 3 of his contract. Leake is a keeper.

757690
07-20-2011, 02:56 AM
Tonight against the Braves...

6 2/3 IP
2 ER
9K

His price just went up.

757690
07-20-2011, 03:00 AM
How about using Chapman to acquire Jimenez?

Here is my reasoning...Chapman is under relatively cheap control for 4 more season that escalates with performance, I believe. He is still entirely unknown and unproven as a starter. He is dominant in the bullpen. The value of a proven and pretty cheap TOR starter is way more than that of a dominant closer. With Ubaldo we do not have to wait for him to develop, he is already there. The odds of Chapman outproducing Ubaldo over the next 4.5 seasons is unlikely.

It doesn't seem like Chapman will be the closer next season. Word is the Reds are looking for one this deadline.

mth123
07-20-2011, 03:32 AM
It doesn't seem like Chapman will be the closer next season. Word is the Reds are looking for one this deadline.

Izzy is my guess.

nemesis
07-20-2011, 07:53 AM
Really, I would do Wood, Alonso, Frazier, and Heisey to get him.

Swap Stubbs for Heisey, I'd still do it.


I am sure it would be Stubbs over Heisey. I would try and get away with Volquez and Joseph/Christiani/Ondrusek swap vs Wood.

CarolinaRedleg
07-20-2011, 10:00 AM
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=ApX5sWcHTkSHKMOakHymtpkRvLYF?slug=ys-brown-passan_trade_buzz_jimenez_reyes_071911


The most smitten teams thus far – the Detroit Tigers, Cincinnati Reds and New York Yankees – all have farm systems deep enough to satisfy the Rockies’ desire for four top-end prospects, at least one of whom is major league-ready. They’re also wary that Rockies general manager Dan O’Dowd is banking on one of the dozen or so teams that has gauged the cost of Jimenez growing desperate and overpaying.
...
A package from Detroit would need to involve Jacob Turner(notes), the right-hander who signed a major league deal out of high school in 2009 and has pitched well, if not dominantly, at Double-A. The key target from Cincinnati would be catcher Devin Mesoraco(notes), a late-blooming catcher with an .861 OPS at Triple-A. The Rockies have inquired about catcher/DH Jesus Montero(notes) and left-hander Manny Banuelos(notes) from the Yankees.

lollipopcurve
07-20-2011, 10:09 AM
I predict he comes home with Ian Stewart or Houston Street.

I seem to remember Jocketty has pursued Street in the past.

lollipopcurve
07-20-2011, 10:11 AM
When you start getting personal assistants out looking at someone for the GM, though, it's serious business. The organization's advanced scouts are doing most of the legwork early in the process. But when you start getting the personal aids going somewhere, it definitely marks a serious level of interest.

This is obviously no guaranteed precursor that a trade is imminent, but I do find it to be descriptive of where in discussions they are.

Agreed. My guess is that it goes down to deadline day. Jocketty couldn't bag Lee last year. Pretty sure he'll go hard after the best pitchers available this year (Jimenez and Shields, at least).

Mario-Rijo
07-20-2011, 10:20 AM
I don't know that I'd even make a deal for Shields he is due for a precipitous drop-off. He's never been anything more than a low end #3 or high end #4. I suppose if it were he for Arroyo that would make some sense on our end but other than that not sure it makes any real sense.

Benihana
07-20-2011, 10:52 AM
Who here would trade Mez and Volquez for Jimenez?

Tony Cloninger
07-20-2011, 10:57 AM
Who here would trade Mez and Volquez for Jimenez?


I would trade Grandal, Wood, Heisey (or Alonso) and Volquez for him. Maybe ask if they can add someone else to that deal. They have an OF named Seth Smith?

Also this stuff about mishandling Chapman after only 1 year (barely)....I mean it;'s not like they cannot take him and stretch him out next year if they feel he can really start. At worst he is a closer.

Mario-Rijo
07-20-2011, 10:59 AM
Who here would trade Mez and Volquez for Jimenez?

If ya stuck my feet to the fire I'd do it. But I'd do everything else I could 1st to avoid it getting to that point. I mean if they wanted Mes because they needed a catching prospect that's one thing but if they want him just because he is our top prospect why wouldn't a package of Grandal and others be just as wise or better for them? Maybe we can just pull a Jedi mind trick on them and say he isn't our best prospect, Grandal is. ;)

Sea Ray
07-20-2011, 11:02 AM
Who here would trade Mez and Volquez for Jimenez?

According to that source the Reds would need to throw in two more prospects. If they're asking for 4 prospects and you can get him with just two I guess it's a good deal but what makes you think the Rockies will settle for just two?

GoReds
07-20-2011, 11:40 AM
According to that source the Reds would need to throw in two more prospects. If they're asking for 4 prospects and you can get him with just two I guess it's a good deal but what makes you think the Rockies will settle for just two?

Out of the four mentioned, at least one would need to be ML ready. Realistically, that needs to be one of the young pitchers and I'd let the Rockies choose who they want from Leake, Wood or Bailey. From there, they need three other top prospects. Although they are sure to ask for Mes, I would offer Grandal and any other two prospects they would care to choose not named Mesaraco or Alonso (who I don't think they want). I don't see how any other team can really top that.

RANDY IN INDY
07-20-2011, 12:08 PM
I would not trade Mesoraco, period.

Caveat Emperor
07-20-2011, 12:15 PM
I would not trade Mesoraco, period.

I'll sign this statement as well.

I'll listen on anyone else in the system and more than a few people on the roster, but a catching prospect in AAA that fields the position and profiles to a #3/#4 RH bat is going nowhere if I'm GM.

mace
07-20-2011, 12:20 PM
I'd just like to make it three in a row. (We've seen so little of that lately.)

traderumor
07-20-2011, 12:20 PM
I don't think anyone is now happy with losing Josh Hamilton for a pitcher, so if we lose another top bat for a pitcher who underperforms, which Jimenez has a higher than I'm comfortable with probability of doing so, I'm not wanting Mes to be a centerpiece.

REDREAD
07-20-2011, 12:24 PM
I don't think they'd take less talent than Alonso. They'd want Stubbs, Wood and Leake IMO. .

Well, they can ask for that, but that trade makes zero sense for the Reds.
Jiminez is a upgrade to Leake, but Leake has been our #2 starter this year.
Trading Stubbs creates a huge hole in the team.

IMO, Leake, Wood, and Stubbs for Jimmeniz hurts the Reds in the short term and long term.

The Reds traded for Konerko, even though they had no place or plans to use him.. It happens.

Caveat Emperor
07-20-2011, 12:26 PM
Proper perspective is needed on Devin Mesoraco -- he's been OPS'ing between .850 - .900 for most of the season at AAA.

If you think he can come to the bigs and post an .800 OPS (a drop from what he's been doing all season at AAA) as an everyday catcher, he'd be a top-5 player in all of baseball at his position offensively.

IslandRed
07-20-2011, 12:27 PM
four top-end prospects, at least one of whom is major league-ready

Since it says "at least one" as opposed to "all of whom," I'm guessing the Rockies don't necessarily want to have to shoehorn all of them onto the 40-man roster immediately. Something to consider when forming the mock trade packages. Maybe that brings high-end but lower-level guys like Juan Duran or Yorman Rodriguez into play.

Caveat Emperor
07-20-2011, 12:29 PM
Since it says "at least one" as opposed to "all of whom," I'm guessing the Rockies don't necessarily want to have to shoehorn all of them onto the 40-man roster immediately. Something to consider when forming the mock trade packages.

Start looking at names like Yorman Rodriguez, Billy Hamilton, Juan Duran, and Yasmani Grandal.

membengal
07-20-2011, 12:34 PM
Alonso plus Wood? Sure.

Mes? No.

lollipopcurve
07-20-2011, 12:40 PM
Trading Stubbs creates a huge hole in the team.

Don't think we know this to be true. There's Heisey. And there's Sappelt.

If I'm the Reds, I'm talking to Houston about Pence, dangling Stubbs plus.

Benihana
07-20-2011, 01:20 PM
Don't think we know this to be true. There's Heisey. And there's Sappelt.

If I'm the Reds, I'm talking to Houston about Pence, dangling Stubbs plus.

My guess is Stubbs and Bailey would get you at least get you a call with Wade. Both are Texas guys. Still I think he'd ask for more, as he is supposedly asking for the moon for Pence.

Something interesting to observe about young "ace" pitchers with multiple years on their contract who have been traded in the last few years- strangely for one reason or another (usually injuries), they haven't really worked out.

Consider the following cases:

Johan Santana to the Mets
Erik Bedard to the Mariners
Jake Peavy to the White Sox
Scott Kazmir to the the Angels
Dontrelle Willis to the Tigers
Rich Harden to the Cubs

While early and I'd still love to have him as I think he's better than this, even Zack Greinke has an ERA over 5 for the Brewers. Shaun Marcum is looking pretty good, however, although you could debate whether or not he classifies as a true "ace."

*I don't count CC Sabathia (Brewers), Cliff Lee (Rangers) or Roy Halladay (Phillies) because they were FA-to-be. Thoughts?

mace
07-20-2011, 01:30 PM
Don't think we know this to be true. There's Heisey. And there's Sappelt.

If I'm the Reds, I'm talking to Houston about Pence, dangling Stubbs plus.

Agreed. Pence is a guy I've been wondering about, as well. (For that matter, so is David Wright, although, concerning him, there are probably too many questions. Could be play left field half the time while switching off with Rolen at 3B? Will he be healthy enough to resume his form?)

Pence could easily hit cleanup on this team. For a four-hole hitter, I don't think the Reds need a classic power stud. They need somebody who can methodically drive in runs and help stave off all those down days on offense. It would be better if he were left-handed, but you can't have everything.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-20-2011, 01:34 PM
I would not trade Mesoraco, period.

Agree with this.

Benihana
07-20-2011, 01:39 PM
Getting back to my initial question, I would have think long and hard before turning down a Mez/Volquez for Jimenez deal. I like Mez plenty but Matt Wieters could provide a cautionary tale about getting overly enamored with catching prospects, especially when you have Hernanigan and Grandal in the organization.

At the end of the day I'd try to hang onto Stubbs, Mez and Leake. They could pick from Bailey, Wood, Alonso, Sappelt, Volquez et al

Benihana
07-20-2011, 01:41 PM
Agreed. Pence is a guy I've been wondering about, as well. (For that matter, so is David Wright, although, concerning him, there are probably too many questions. Could be play left field half the time while switching off with Rolen at 3B? Will he be healthy enough to resume his form?)

Pence could easily hit cleanup on this team. For a four-hole hitter, I don't think the Reds need a classic power stud. They need somebody who can methodically drive in runs and help stave off all those down days on offense. It would be better if he were left-handed, but you can't have everything.

Why? Aren't Bruce and Votto left-handed?

Agree about Wright, although I question how realistic that is.

757690
07-20-2011, 01:53 PM
Getting back to my initial question, I would have he long and hard before turning down a Mez/Volquez for Jimenez deal. I like Mez plenty but Matt Wieters could provide a cautionary tale about getting overly enamored with catching prospects, especially when you have Hernanigan and Grandal in the organization.

At the end of the day I'd try to hang onto Stubbs, Mez and Leake. They could pick from Bailey, Wood, Alonso, Sappelt, Volquez et al

Wieters went to the All-Star game this year.

He also only had one plus year in the minors, and currently is in terrible lineup in a very tough AL East, and yet has 111 OPS+.

He looks to be a 4-5 win player this year, and is improving everyday.

I have no problem if Mes turns into Wieters, and if that is a good comp for him, I wouldn't trade him, period.

Benihana
07-20-2011, 02:01 PM
Wieters went to the All-Star game this year.

He also only had one plus year in the minors, and currently is in terrible lineup in a very tough AL East, and yet has 111 OPS+.

He looks to be a 4-5 win player this year, and is improving everyday.

I have no problem if Mes turns into Wieters, and if that is a good comp for him, I wouldn't trade him, period.

Question is, could Grandal turn into that also? And could you pick up an ace in the process? (Not to mention, if you trade Mez, you offer Hernandez arb, he either holds down the position with Hanigan for another year until Grandal is ready or you get two extra high draft choices.)

Still not sure if I'd do it, but I'll say it is worth considering.

mace
07-20-2011, 02:01 PM
Why? Aren't Bruce and Votto left-handed?

Agree about Wright, although I question how realistic that is.

The team is performing much worse against righthanders (705 OPS) than lefties (822). They have only three left-handed hitters (position players) on the roster.

Benihana
07-20-2011, 02:02 PM
The team is performing much worse against righthanders (705 OPS) than lefties (822). They have only three left-handed hitters (position players) on the roster.

But we also know Dusty is opposed to stacking the lefties in order. So if your two best hitters (3 and 5-hole) are left-handed, wouldn't it make more sense to get a cleanup guy that was right-handed? Or at a minimum, be neutral to what hand he swings with?

signalhome
07-20-2011, 02:03 PM
Getting back to my initial question, I would have think long and hard before turning down a Mez/Volquez for Jimenez deal. I like Mez plenty but Matt Wieters could provide a cautionary tale about getting overly enamored with catching prospects, especially when you have Hernanigan and Grandal in the organization.

At the end of the day I'd try to hang onto Stubbs, Mez and Leake. They could pick from Bailey, Wood, Alonso, Sappelt, Volquez et al

I don't agree that Wieters is a cautionary tale. Wieters is still only 25 and is having a really good season this year: 2.8 WAR, .335 wOBA, 109 wRC+. Those are good numbers for a catcher, especially one that just turned 25 in May. He isn't producing at the level that he did in the minors, but to expect that would be unreasonable. He's coming along quite nicely, and I'd think the Orioles would be pretty pleased with his development so far. Here (http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/index.php/supermans-quiet-progress/) is a pretty good Rotographs (Fangraphs) article on Wieters.

Edit: Looks like 757690 beat me to the punch.

klw
07-20-2011, 02:09 PM
Love that spell/fact checking Mr. Heyman


• Rivals believe the Reds might be able to offer the best package for Jimenez. One NL GM suggested Yonder Alonso, Tim Wood and Edinson Volquez would be fair. Mike Leake and Homer Bailer are other young pitchers with value. Alonso fits because teams believe the Rockies are interested in an eventual replacement for Todd Helton
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/jon_heyman/07/20/carlos.beltran/index.html#ixzz1SfMQZDPQ

Tim Wood and Homer Bailer could go anyday if only the Reds had their rights.

757690
07-20-2011, 02:20 PM
Question is, could Grandal turn into that also? And could you pick up an ace in the process? (Not to mention, if you trade Mez, you offer Hernandez arb, he either holds down the position with Hanigan for another year until Grandal is ready or you get two extra high draft choices.)

Still not sure if I'd do it, but I'll say it is worth considering.

Good question. I hope the Reds know the answer ;)

Caveat Emperor
07-20-2011, 02:20 PM
As I said earlier -- I'd make the deal right now and never look back if all it took to get Jimenez was Wood, Alonso and Volquez.

RichRed
07-20-2011, 02:22 PM
Love that spell/fact checking Mr. Heyman


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/jon_heyman/07/20/carlos.beltran/index.html#ixzz1SfMQZDPQ

Tim Wood and Homer Bailer could go anyday if only the Reds had their rights.

Did he change his name to Jon Fayman?

Kc61
07-20-2011, 02:24 PM
But we also know Dusty is opposed to stacking the lefties in order. So if your two best hitters (3 and 5-hole) are left-handed, wouldn't it make more sense to get a cleanup guy that was right-handed? Or at a minimum, be neutral to what hand he swings with?

Reds need a right handed cleanup hitter who can hit both righties and lefties.

Reds need a third lefty hitter, at least on a platoon basis, for the starting lineup. Perhaps a platoon third baseman.

Team needs both.

Benihana
07-20-2011, 02:43 PM
Good question. I hope the Reds know the answer ;)

Which speaks to a broader point. It's high time for the Reds to start picking their horses and cashing in chips. Make the scouts earn their money.

Heisey vs. Stubbs
Mesoraco vs. Grandal
Alonso vs. Sappelt
Duran vs. Rodriguez
Hamilton vs. Torreyes

I know depth is a good thing, and no one should force the issue. But hanging onto somewhat redundant players, especially in situations like catcher, and refusing to take a chance and cash some chips in has been costing this team for the past couple seasons. Stop the paralysis and make a move.

The last two times the Reds did this, they acquired key pieces that led to a World Series title (Kurt Stillwell -> Danny Jackson) and a 96 win season (Paul Konerko -> Mike Cameron). As the latter case proves, the choice doesn't always need to be so cut-and-dry.

reds44
07-20-2011, 04:37 PM
Tim Wood is a stud.

cinreds21
07-20-2011, 04:40 PM
Tim Wood is a stud.

He's a former Marlin prospect who's now in the Nationals organization. He throws 96. True story.

cinreds21
07-20-2011, 04:44 PM
Per rotoworld:


An official of a team that checked in on Ubaldo Jimenez told Jayson Stark of ESPN.com that the Rockies "never had serious intent" to deal him.
It's reminiscent of how Diamondbacks' GM Kevin Towers dangled Justin Upton in trade talks over the winter. The Rockies were simply wondering if someone would step up and severely overpay. It's the only way they'd realistically deal Jimenez, who has a very reasonable contract that could keep him with the club through 2014.

REDREAD
07-20-2011, 04:57 PM
Don't think we know this to be true. There's Heisey. And there's Sappelt.

If I'm the Reds, I'm talking to Houston about Pence, dangling Stubbs plus.

I can respect that opinion, but I don't think we have anyone that can replace Stubbs. Heisey is a significant step down.
Stubbs is very streaky, but when he's hot, he can carry the team, much like Bruce can. Granted, it doesn't happen as often as Bruce, but I just don't get that warm feeling from Heisey... Sappelt.. well, I can not comment, but I do not want to trade my starting CF in the middle of a playoff race for an untested minor leaguer whom the Reds have passed over several times.

My fear is that if Stubbs is traded, Heisey does an imitation of Freel when Freel was handed the starting job (ie Flops). Stubbs is just a better player, even when slumping.

Maybe I am crazy, but I think Stubbs, Votto, Bruce, and Phillips are the untouchables.. the offense could just not recover from any of them being subtracted.

Brutus
07-20-2011, 05:04 PM
I'm not sure Mesoraco will profile as a 3/4 when it's all said and done. He's a great hitter for his position, no question, but I don't think he's a 3/4 guy personally (though if he continues to do in the majors what he's doing currently, a good case can be made). For that matter, history is littered with highly-touted catching prospects that get to the majors and don't cut it. Some would argue that's a reason to keep Mesoraco; I would argue it's a good reason to use his value in a trade if it's necessary to do so.

I would like to keep him if possible, but Ubaldo would be the best pitcher the Reds have had in several years, as disappointing as that is to say. If Mesoraco is what stands between the Reds and acquiring a pitcher of that caliber, I say do it. Don't let a prospect stop them from getting what they've dearly lacked all these years.

TRF
07-20-2011, 05:09 PM
I can respect that opinion, but I don't think we have anyone that can replace Stubbs. Heisey is a significant step down.
Stubbs is very streaky, but when he's hot, he can carry the team, much like Bruce can. Granted, it doesn't happen as often as Bruce, but I just don't get that warm feeling from Heisey... Sappelt.. well, I can not comment, but I do not want to trade my starting CF in the middle of a playoff race for an untested minor leaguer whom the Reds have passed over several times.

My fear is that if Stubbs is traded, Heisey does an imitation of Freel when Freel was handed the starting job (ie Flops). Stubbs is just a better player, even when slumping.

Maybe I am crazy, but I think Stubbs, Votto, Bruce, and Phillips are the untouchables.. the offense could just not recover from any of them being subtracted.

revisionist history. Freel didn't flop per se. his body simply could not hold up to the style of player he was. In the three years he garndered 430+ PA's he had OBP's of .375, .371 and .363 and averaged 37 SB's.

Um, I'll take flopping like that every day of the week. Especially since Heisey actually has power too.

mdccclxix
07-20-2011, 05:09 PM
I'm not sure Mesoraco will profile as a 3/4 when it's all said and done. He's a great hitter for his position, no question, but I don't think he's a 3/4 guy personally (though if he continues to do in the majors what he's doing currently, a good case can be made). For that matter, history is littered with highly-touted catching prospects that get to the majors and don't cut it. Some would argue that's a reason to keep Mesoraco; I would argue it's a good reason to use his value in a trade if it's necessary to do so.

I would like to keep him if possible, but Ubaldo would be the best pitcher the Reds have had in several years, as disappointing as that is to say. If Mesoraco is what stands between the Reds and acquiring a pitcher of that caliber, I say do it. Don't let a prospect stop them from getting what they've dearly lacked all these years.

+1

TRF
07-20-2011, 05:21 PM
I'm not sure Mesoraco will profile as a 3/4 when it's all said and done. He's a great hitter for his position, no question, but I don't think he's a 3/4 guy personally (though if he continues to do in the majors what he's doing currently, a good case can be made). For that matter, history is littered with highly-touted catching prospects that get to the majors and don't cut it. Some would argue that's a reason to keep Mesoraco; I would argue it's a good reason to use his value in a trade if it's necessary to do so.

I would like to keep him if possible, but Ubaldo would be the best pitcher the Reds have had in several years, as disappointing as that is to say. If Mesoraco is what stands between the Reds and acquiring a pitcher of that caliber, I say do it. Don't let a prospect stop them from getting what they've dearly lacked all these years.

-1

Cannot disagree more. Mes had a monster year last season, and he's continued it this year. The other highly touted catchers of recent years Salty, Ramirez et al, never put up two seasons in the high minors like Mes is in the process of doing. He's the Reds' top prospect. I wouldn't move him for any pitcher less than a Cliff Lee type, and Ubaldo is not Cliff Lee.

Over this Pirates series, Reds starting pitchers gave up a total of 4 runs over 16 2/3 ip, with one game shortened by rain. The bullpen gave up nothing. I think the pitching is stabilizing.

Hitting is the problem. Forget Ubaldo. Forget Shields. get a LF.

Brutus
07-20-2011, 05:40 PM
-1

Cannot disagree more. Mes had a monster year last season, and he's continued it this year. The other highly touted catchers of recent years Salty, Ramirez et al, never put up two seasons in the high minors like Mes is in the process of doing. He's the Reds' top prospect. I wouldn't move him for any pitcher less than a Cliff Lee type, and Ubaldo is not Cliff Lee.

Over this Pirates series, Reds starting pitchers gave up a total of 4 runs over 16 2/3 ip, with one game shortened by rain. The bullpen gave up nothing. I think the pitching is stabilizing.

Hitting is the problem. Forget Ubaldo. Forget Shields. get a LF.

Hitting is easier to fix for cheap than pitching. The Reds haven't had an ace in how many years and you're wanting to give that up for a prospect?

As far as the Pirates' series, as solid as the pitching was, remember the Pirates' offense is not very good. They've been among the worst in the majors this year, in fact.

The Reds' pitching talent on the whole is better than it's been in years. But they still don't have a guy that identifies as a possible true 'ace.' I think we learned last year in the postseason that the Reds need an ace -- a guy that can go up against Roy Halladay and win the game. At least, I thought we learned that. But you're telling me you'd give that up to keep a prospect.

TRF
07-20-2011, 05:48 PM
Hitting is easier to fix for cheap than pitching. The Reds haven't had an ace in how many years and you're wanting to give that up for a prospect?

As far as the Pirates' series, as solid as the pitching was, remember the Pirates' offense is not very good. They've been among the worst in the majors this year, in fact.

The Reds' pitching talent on the whole is better than it's been in years. But they still don't have a guy that identifies as a possible true 'ace.' I think we learned last year in the postseason that the Reds need an ace -- a guy that can go up against Roy Halladay and win the game. At least, I thought we learned that. But you're telling me you'd give that up to keep a prospect.

In the series against the Cardinals, the starters gave up 7 ER in 21 IP, 4 of those ER were given up by Arroyo, who I believe is still suffering from fatigue from his bout with mono. He needs to be rested for 2 weeks, minimum.

Homer Bailey
07-20-2011, 05:48 PM
Hitting is easier to fix for cheap than pitching. The Reds haven't had an ace in how many years and you're wanting to give that up for a prospect?

As far as the Pirates' series, as solid as the pitching was, remember the Pirates' offense is not very good. They've been among the worst in the majors this year, in fact.

The Reds' pitching talent on the whole is better than it's been in years. But they still don't have a guy that identifies as a possible true 'ace.' I think we learned last year in the postseason that the Reds need an ace -- a guy that can go up against Roy Halladay and win the game. At least, I thought we learned that. But you're telling me you'd give that up to keep a prospect.

Is Ubaldo an ace? I don't really think so. Here are the pitchers in the NL alone I'd rather have over Ubaldo:

Halladay
Lee
Johnson
Kershaw
Cain
Lincecum
Hamels
Garcia
Garza
Wainwright
Maybe Gallardo

Ubaldo is a stud, and would be the best pitcher on this team, but I think he's being a bit overrated by many on this board.

Patrick Bateman
07-20-2011, 05:52 PM
Hitting is easier to fix for cheap than pitching. The Reds haven't had an ace in how many years and you're wanting to give that up for a prospect?

As far as the Pirates' series, as solid as the pitching was, remember the Pirates' offense is not very good. They've been among the worst in the majors this year, in fact.

The Reds' pitching talent on the whole is better than it's been in years. But they still don't have a guy that identifies as a possible true 'ace.' I think we learned last year in the postseason that the Reds need an ace -- a guy that can go up against Roy Halladay and win the game. At least, I thought we learned that. But you're telling me you'd give that up to keep a prospect.

A few things IMO of course:

1. Making decisions based on past defeciencies is poor strategy.
Make the trade if it's good value.
I'm not convinced Ubaldo is the guy. With declining velocity, although his stats are unchanged, he's a worse pitcher because of the change in hitting ability accross the league.
I like the contract, but Im not in love with the idea of trading our top prospect for him (and one of the better ones in baseball).

2. Last year's playoffs was 3 games for us. You simply cannot make decisions based on 3 games. The Reds pitching was great last year in the playoffs anyways against a good offense. Simply put, our offense went dry at key spots. It happens. The Phillies were an overall better team, the Reds can fix the gap in a number of ways, and yes, getting a legit ace would be the best way to start.