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cinreds21
07-13-2011, 01:03 AM
Wow:


SI_JonHeyman Jon Heyman
Krod traded to brewers

blumj
07-13-2011, 01:08 AM
http://brewersbeat.mlblogs.com/2011/07/12/brewers-acquire-k-rod-from-mets/

According to this, with cash, for 2 PTBNLs.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-13-2011, 01:13 AM
Gotta say, I'm a little jealous at how aggressive the Brewers are, especially compared to the passive stance the Reds have taken the past 12 months. The first place team sees a weakness and significantly upgrades. They weren't the team that had a closer blow two saves over the weekend but they still go out and get a closer.

Meantime, the GM of the fourth place team, sitting at two games under .500, has this to say, no doubt exciting antsy fans:

"We have not had specific or significant trade talks with anyone at this point," Jocketty said.

Ghosts of 1990
07-13-2011, 01:14 AM
Brewers are loaded

Reds are Laissez-Faire

HeatherC1212
07-13-2011, 01:16 AM
Do they even have any prospects left to deal??! :eek:

Walt isn't sitting on his hands. If there's something reasonable that will help the Reds this year, I have faith that he'll be all over it. It will probably be something totally out of left field too (no pun intended, LOL).

Unassisted
07-13-2011, 01:17 AM
But once Prince leaves for his big payday, I look for a fire sale in Milwaukee. That small market can't sustain a big payroll.

I don't want to be a fan of a build-then-burn team.

757690
07-13-2011, 01:17 AM
The details will be interesting.

K-Rod pretty much demanded that his $17.5M option be picked up if traded.

This address one problem, but they still have a sieve defense.

Anyway, they definitely are going all in. They have noting left for next year. No prospects, and no payflex.

CTA513
07-13-2011, 01:18 AM
Isn't he about 13 games away from having his 2012 option of $17.5 million kick in?

*edit* It might be 20 something games since its games finished and not games pitched in.

mdccclxix
07-13-2011, 01:18 AM
Brewers pen has league leading 20 losses. This is big.

REDREAD
07-13-2011, 01:29 AM
It probably relieves some of the Mets' financial pressure too (at least for next year?) Makes it less likely that Reyes will be traded.

KronoRed
07-13-2011, 01:31 AM
But once Prince leaves for his big payday, I look for a fire sale in Milwaukee. That small market can't sustain a big payroll.


Not necessarily, they will come close to 3 million again this year in attendance, something our favorite team only achieves in dreamland.

They may have a few lean years but we heard they were doomed when they went after CC as well, I admire them going for it, gets fans in the stadium.

Larkin Fan
07-13-2011, 01:31 AM
Axford just got the axe.

mth123
07-13-2011, 01:47 AM
Axford just got the axe.

I'd guess Axford remans the closer while K-Rod pitches the 8th and and doesn't close. The terms of his option are based on the number of games he finishes.

This is why the Brewers don't need the riches of prospects to make additions, they just need to take on a contract or two in an area of need.

757690
07-14-2011, 01:38 AM
This is very interesting. Looks like the early reports about K-Rod's no trade clause were wrong.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/14/sports/baseball/mets-traded-rodriguez-because-of-money-not-manpower.html?_r=2&ref=sports



The contract Rodriguez signed with the Mets before the 2009 season includes a limited no-trade clause, meaning he could list 10 teams to which he could veto a deal. But according to two baseball officials with direct knowledge of the situation, Rodriguez’s previous agent, Paul Kinzer, never submitted the list of 10 teams.
The Mets thought that once Boras assumed representation, he would scrutinize Rodriguez’s contract and either try to submit a list or perhaps file a grievance that might allow him to do so.
To avoid that, and to have the freedom to trade Rodriguez wherever the team pleased, Mets General Manager Sandy Alderson quickly sent Rodriguez, and roughly $5 million, to the Brewers...

Looks like a steal for the Brewers. The players they traded can't be any good, because the don't have anyone good. lol

CrackerJack
07-14-2011, 01:39 AM
The Brews don't pick-up his option unless he "closes out" 21 more games this season right? So they took on short term $ and possibly middling prospects in return to relieve the Mets of payroll.

I don't see where that leaves them "with nothing" next year and into the future?

Despite how everyone hypes the Reds' "uber" young prospects and players, they really aren't doing much, and still haven't won a post season game. I'd like to see
some higher standards and accountability from management here, and less butt-slapping and "patience" where warranted. That would include adding people instead of watching division contenders do it instead constantly.

WMR
07-14-2011, 01:39 AM
Strange I thought no one was making trades...

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-14-2011, 02:05 AM
Strange I thought no one was making trades...

So claims Baghdad Walt

Brutus
07-14-2011, 02:29 AM
So claims Baghdad Walt

Considering it was the first significant trade of the season, on July 14, and it happened this soon mainly because of an abrupt change in agent, I think there may be something to the claims of inactivity.

757690
07-14-2011, 03:08 AM
FWIW, that "John Smith" twitter guy who said that Cozart was coming up the day before he came up, tweeted that the Reds and Rockies were very close to a deal for Jimenez, but the Rockies backed out at the last minute.

Ron Madden
07-14-2011, 06:13 AM
Not necessarily, they will come close to 3 million again this year in attendance, something our favorite team only achieves in dreamland.

They may have a few lean years but we heard they were doomed when they went after CC as well, I admire them going for it, gets fans in the stadium.


Very True,

I fail to understand just why Reds fans continue to underestimate the Milwaukee Brewers and their fan base.

membengal
07-14-2011, 07:54 AM
I guess all the posts on this thread from right around the server switchover were lost. Well, can't recreate my thoughts, but, generally...good on the Brewers. And, people underestimate that organization and their ability to keep their fans interested. It's no accident they draw as well as they do.

cumberlandreds
07-14-2011, 08:47 AM
Good pickup for the Brewers. Their bullpen depth was their biggest question mark. They have answered that. It will be interesting now to see who gets Heath Bell. Do the Cardinals have something they swing for him? If they do I would say he ends up there.

mth123
07-14-2011, 09:03 AM
Over the winter the Brewers dealt for Greinke and Marcum and many on this board were posting that it was an act of desperation. The comments focused on Fielder being in his walk year and the Brewers had to get some pitching to go for it now. They made those commenst as though that was a bad thing. IMO, the Brewers accurately assessed their situation and made moves to win when the opportunity presented itself. This is another one. Many said they had nothing to deal and no way to improve. Yet here they are addressing another of their needs while sitting in a tie atop the division.

The Reds are in a similar situation with Rolen, Phillips and even Votto all on borrowed time here in Cincinnati. I wish the Reds would also make the moves to win. The opportunity won't always be there.

The Brewers moves may not all work out, but if I were a fan of that team, I'd be very happy that they took a shot at "getting while the getting was good" no matter how it turns out. If the Reds made a move that actually attempted to address their needs (not just cosmetic ones that are doomed to fail like past acquisitions of guys like Kirk Saarloos, Jeff Conine and Willy T for example but real players whose skillsets provide what is lacking) I personally would be happy no matter how it turns out.

_Sir_Charles_
07-14-2011, 09:21 AM
But once Prince leaves for his big payday, I look for a fire sale in Milwaukee. That small market can't sustain a big payroll.

I don't want to be a fan of a build-then-burn team.

Spot on. They're going all in for a one year shot. Not the right formula for sustained success. I totally prefer the way we're doing things now. Strike a deal if its the right one and it doesn't hurt us significantly down the line...otherwise, stay the course.

edabbs44
07-14-2011, 09:23 AM
Gotta think this trade means Cincy will not give up significant players for a rental.

_Sir_Charles_
07-14-2011, 09:24 AM
I think a lot of that depends upon how much money they sent the mets' way.

edabbs44
07-14-2011, 09:26 AM
I think a lot of that depends upon how much money they sent the mets' way.

huh?

_Sir_Charles_
07-14-2011, 09:31 AM
huh?

The Brewers may have significantly lessened the amount of (or quality of) the prospects they dealt by increasing the amount of money they sent the Mets' way. The Mets were really interested in this deal as a cost cutting measure. I haven't heard the amount of money they sent to NY, but if it's a significant figure, it would effect the quality of the prospects they'd have to include.

mth123
07-14-2011, 09:32 AM
Spot on. They're going all in for a one year shot. Not the right formula for sustained success. I totally prefer the way we're doing things now. Strike a deal if its the right one and it doesn't hurt us significantly down the line...otherwise, stay the course.

If sustained success is what you are aiming for, this team needs to find a way to sign Joey Votto beyond 2013. I'm guessing that involves doing what it takes to win this year. The Reds have talent, but face big drop-offs at 2B and 3B over the next couple of years and not one of that treasure trove of prospects will be able to fill their shoes. If Votto goes, back to the middle of the pack and selling at the All Star break IMO.

mth123
07-14-2011, 09:34 AM
The Brewers may have significantly lessened the amount of (or quality of) the prospects they dealt by increasing the amount of money they sent the Mets' way. The Mets were really interested in this deal as a cost cutting measure. I haven't heard the amount of money they sent to NY, but if it's a significant figure, it would effect the quality of the prospects they'd have to include.

The Brewers basically took on the option/buyout clause and maybe saved the Mets a couple million in Salary. The buy-out is $3.5 Million and is the primary savings that the Mets got in this deal.

edabbs44
07-14-2011, 09:34 AM
The Brewers may have significantly lessened the amount of (or quality of) the prospects they dealt by increasing the amount of money they sent the Mets' way. The Mets were really interested in this deal as a cost cutting measure. I haven't heard the amount of money they sent to NY, but if it's a significant figure, it would effect the quality of the prospects they'd have to include.

Oh, I think you misunderstood my post. Was saying that thew Brewers are going all out this year and Cincy's job just became that much harder. I'd hate to see Walt trade a few of the jewels of the minors in order to chase something where the odds are really stacked against him.

757690
07-14-2011, 10:23 AM
Over the winter the Brewers dealt for Greinke and Marcum and many on this board were posting that it was an act of desperation. The comments focused on Fielder being in his walk year and the Brewers had to get some pitching to go for it now. They made those commenst as though that was a bad thing. IMO, the Brewers accurately assessed their situation and made moves to win when the opportunity presented itself. This is another one. Many said they had nothing to deal and no way to improve. Yet here they are addressing another of their needs while sitting in a tie atop the division.

The Reds are in a similar situation with Rolen, Phillips and even Votto all on borrowed time here in Cincinnati. I wish the Reds would also make the moves to win. The opportunity won't always be there.

The Brewers moves may not all work out, but if I were a fan of that team, I'd be very happy that they took a shot at "getting while the getting was good" no matter how it turns out. If the Reds made a move that actually attempted to address their needs (not just cosmetic ones that are doomed to fail like past acquisitions of guys like Kirk Saarloos, Jeff Conine and Willy T for example but real players whose skillsets provide what is lacking) I personally would be happy no matter how it turns out.

The Reds and Brewers long term situations aren't even close. In fact, they are about as far apart as two teams' situations can be.

The Reds have a surplus of talent and great depth within their organization. They also have a much better payflex situation long term.

The Brewers have what they have now at the major league level, and nothing else. They must go the Bowden route of picking up scraps, or bad contracts in order to fill holes. It might not be a lost decade for them coming up, but it will very ugly.

This K-Rod deal is a nice one for them, but they got lucky. They can't rely on deals like every time they have a hole to fill, but they have to. The Reds have many other options if they want to improve the team.

_Sir_Charles_
07-14-2011, 11:39 AM
If sustained success is what you are aiming for, this team needs to find a way to sign Joey Votto beyond 2013. I'm guessing that involves doing what it takes to win this year. The Reds have talent, but face big drop-offs at 2B and 3B over the next couple of years and not one of that treasure trove of prospects will be able to fill their shoes. If Votto goes, back to the middle of the pack and selling at the All Star break IMO.

My point was that we shouldn't make a deal as a reflex to the Brewers dealings. We should only make a trade if it's the RIGHT trade. I don't want to see movement for the sake of movement. I don't want to see us overpaying for a rental that ends up hurting us more long term than it helps us in the short term.

Some of the answers to the questions this team has can be found in Louisville. Or at least possible answers. Any trade acquisition...will have doubts and questions too...fewer, sure...but there aren't any sure things anymore.

As for Votto, I firmly believe that Walt & Co. will try to extend Votto further. But I don't want to see them cripple the franchise for the sake of one player like they did with Griffey and a few others I can think of.

_Sir_Charles_
07-14-2011, 11:40 AM
Oh, I think you misunderstood my post. Was saying that thew Brewers are going all out this year and Cincy's job just became that much harder. I'd hate to see Walt trade a few of the jewels of the minors in order to chase something where the odds are really stacked against him.

Gotcha. I'll play the "it was early & I was still kinda tired" card. :O)

cincrazy
07-14-2011, 11:45 AM
The Reds and Brewers long term situations aren't even close. In fact, they are about as far apart as two teams' situations can be.

The Reds have a surplus of talent and great depth within their organization. They also have a much better payflex situation long term.

The Brewers have what they have now at the major league level, and nothing else. They must go the Bowden route of picking up scraps, or bad contracts in order to fill holes. It might not be a lost decade for them coming up, but it will very ugly.

This K-Rod deal is a nice one for them, but they got lucky. They can't rely on deals like every time they have a hole to fill, but they have to. The Reds have many other options if they want to improve the team.

I disagree with you. I don't think it's luck. It's being a proactive, well run organization. This team is not going to fall off the face of the earth. They get fantastic attendance, they have a great owner, an aggressive and smart GM. Fielder leaving hurts, but it won't cripple them. They simply find a way. We can look at our minor league depth all we want and say it gives us an advantage over the Cards and Brewers, but the fact of the matter is, we don't know that. We have no way of knowing who will pan out and who won't, or whether any of them will be impact players even if they are solid major leaguers.

cincrazy
07-14-2011, 11:48 AM
My point was that we shouldn't make a deal as a reflex to the Brewers dealings. We should only make a trade if it's the RIGHT trade. I don't want to see movement for the sake of movement. I don't want to see us overpaying for a rental that ends up hurting us more long term than it helps us in the short term.

Some of the answers to the questions this team has can be found in Louisville. Or at least possible answers. Any trade acquisition...will have doubts and questions too...fewer, sure...but there aren't any sure things anymore.

As for Votto, I firmly believe that Walt & Co. will try to extend Votto further. But I don't want to see them cripple the franchise for the sake of one player like they did with Griffey and a few others I can think of.

I don't necessarily think anyone here is saying we should make a move because the Brewers just traded for Krod. We were only pointing out how this trade reflects the difference in the two front offices. Walt has more or less sat on his hands since becoming GM. How long does he need to evaluate? There's no creativity, no urgency. It took them 3 months to realize Cozart should get an opportunity. It took them even longer to see that Gomes is worthless in certain situations.

mth123
07-14-2011, 11:51 AM
The Reds and Brewers long term situations aren't even close. In fact, they are about as far apart as two teams' situations can be.

The Reds have a surplus of talent and great depth within their organization. They also have a much better payflex situation long term.

The Brewers have what they have now at the major league level, and nothing else. They must go the Bowden route of picking up scraps, or bad contracts in order to fill holes. It might not be a lost decade for them coming up, but it will very ugly.

This K-Rod deal is a nice one for them, but they got lucky. They can't rely on deals like every time they have a hole to fill, but they have to. The Reds have many other options if they want to improve the team.

IMO the Reds have the talent to avoid a 10 year run of losing seasons, and agree that they have options to improve, but they seem reluctant to actually do anything. Meanwhile, as I'm told about the Reds dominance in this area and all the chips they have to play, the Brewers fixed their rotation and their pen while the Reds are still stuck in 85 win mode. IMO, once Votto leaves, the Reds won't have the core to build a championship around. There are only so many "straw that stirs the drink" type players out there and Votto is the guy on this team. Yonder Alonso might very well be a good hitter as his heir apparant and seems able to fill the hole. So was Dan Driessen, but once Tony Perez left town, the championship era in Cincy ended. Same will happen when Votto goes. I'd at least like to see them try to actually win a championship before its over.

All that talent doesn't help this team win any games while its sitting in AAA. Put it to use by calling it up and seeing if it can fill the holes or dealing it off for players that can.

_Sir_Charles_
07-14-2011, 12:09 PM
I don't necessarily think anyone here is saying we should make a move because the Brewers just traded for Krod. We were only pointing out how this trade reflects the difference in the two front offices. Walt has more or less sat on his hands since becoming GM. How long does he need to evaluate? There's no creativity, no urgency. It took them 3 months to realize Cozart should get an opportunity. It took them even longer to see that Gomes is worthless in certain situations.

Sorry. I wasn't trying to imply that anybody DID suggest that. I was only stating my opinion on the subject and how the REDS should move forward. I fully agree that we need to make some changes. We need to look at what players actually have a future with this club and which don't. Renteria doesn't. Cordero most likely doesn't. Hernandez doesn't. Lewis & Gomes most likely don't (at least not as full time players). Volquez doesn't. Cairo doesn't. And unfortunately, Rolen doesn't either. I'm not trying to say we need to dump every vet. We don't. But we do need to look at the minor league kids (who are quickly losing that "kid" status). So if that means we need to jettison some of the part-timers & declining vets...so be it. But we need to see what these rookies have to offer sooner rather than later.

Alonso, Mesoraco, and Frazier are all at the stage where they simply don't have anything else to prove or learn in AAA. Francisco isn't going to improve on his walk rate (I know he's hurt, but the point is still there) and he needs to be given a shot at third or left. Sappelt has shown that he's definitely ready in terms of his bat, but it was the fundamentals that Dusty said he needed to work on...so I'm fine with him staying in L'ville for now. Another guy who's done all he can do in L'ville is Danny Dorn. All he's done is hit at every level. Have people looked at how he hits RH pitching? Imagine him as a platoon partner with Gomes. Heck, even Hermida is tearing it up down there.

I just think that we're pretty much at the point where we've either got to promote several of these guys now OR deal several of these guys now. It's nearing the point where they'll start to lose their trade value soon as they get older and still languish down in AAA and when they'll start being roadblocks for guys BELOW AAA. I would hope that the organization has a plan for these minor leaguers...but it sure doesn't look like it. The constant juggling of positions for Alonso, Frazier, Francisco, Valaika, Dorn, etc, etc, etc has made it nearly impossible to judge whether these players can cut it defensively at a certain position. It's also most likely hampered their hitting numbers as they're forced to split their concentration on learning a new defensive craft. It's just frustrating.

I'm begging to see some movement...and not just for the Reds sake, but for the players in AAA who've earned a shot.

traderumor
07-14-2011, 12:13 PM
This is clearly a salary dump by the Mets. Yes, the Brewers have made some deals, this is probably the best one they've done, esp. with the short term in mind.

I knew the envy would come out, and sure enough. These are two franchises in different phases in their organization. I'm not sure comparing their activity with ours is a fair evaluation process.

Is Melvin retiring after this year? :lol: Hopefully this deal truly improves his club, because thus far the Greinke deal has not really had an impact. Their best pitcher is still Gallardo, whom they already had. At least Melvin does realize that "first place" in the Central Division is not much to shout about.

edabbs44
07-14-2011, 12:27 PM
Melvin's grade won't be ready for a few years...he could end up being a genius, or he could end up being Dick Fuld.

cincrazy
07-14-2011, 12:30 PM
Sorry. I wasn't trying to imply that anybody DID suggest that. I was only stating my opinion on the subject and how the REDS should move forward. I fully agree that we need to make some changes. We need to look at what players actually have a future with this club and which don't. Renteria doesn't. Cordero most likely doesn't. Hernandez doesn't. Lewis & Gomes most likely don't (at least not as full time players). Volquez doesn't. Cairo doesn't. And unfortunately, Rolen doesn't either. I'm not trying to say we need to dump every vet. We don't. But we do need to look at the minor league kids (who are quickly losing that "kid" status). So if that means we need to jettison some of the part-timers & declining vets...so be it. But we need to see what these rookies have to offer sooner rather than later.

Alonso, Mesoraco, and Frazier are all at the stage where they simply don't have anything else to prove or learn in AAA. Francisco isn't going to improve on his walk rate (I know he's hurt, but the point is still there) and he needs to be given a shot at third or left. Sappelt has shown that he's definitely ready in terms of his bat, but it was the fundamentals that Dusty said he needed to work on...so I'm fine with him staying in L'ville for now. Another guy who's done all he can do in L'ville is Danny Dorn. All he's done is hit at every level. Have people looked at how he hits RH pitching? Imagine him as a platoon partner with Gomes. Heck, even Hermida is tearing it up down there.

I just think that we're pretty much at the point where we've either got to promote several of these guys now OR deal several of these guys now. It's nearing the point where they'll start to lose their trade value soon as they get older and still languish down in AAA and when they'll start being roadblocks for guys BELOW AAA. I would hope that the organization has a plan for these minor leaguers...but it sure doesn't look like it. The constant juggling of positions for Alonso, Frazier, Francisco, Valaika, Dorn, etc, etc, etc has made it nearly impossible to judge whether these players can cut it defensively at a certain position. It's also most likely hampered their hitting numbers as they're forced to split their concentration on learning a new defensive craft. It's just frustrating.

I'm begging to see some movement...and not just for the Reds sake, but for the players in AAA who've earned a shot.

Absolutely agree with everything you laid out here, great post. And no need to apologize about anything :thumbup:.

Mth, I agree with you, also. This team, even going forward as is, isn't terrible. But it's an 80-85 win team. And I don't want average. I gave this front office the benefit of the doubt for a loooooooooooooooooong time. And I'm not doing it anymore. It isn't just the lack of deals being made from outside the organization to improve the team, but it's the total reluctance to call up some of these young guys that drives me CRAZY.

Homer Bailey
07-14-2011, 12:33 PM
For the record, this a move that the Brewers can make that the Reds simply can't. It's going to cost the Brewers approximately $4.9M to add a pitcher that basically amounts to Nick Massett. Those continuously whining about the Reds lack of moves made tend to forget the payroll restrictions in Cincinnati.

mth123
07-14-2011, 12:43 PM
For the record, this a move that the Brewers can make that the Reds simply can't. It's going to cost the Brewers approximately $4.9M to add a pitcher that basically amounts to Nick Massett. Those continuously whining about the Reds lack of moves made tend to forget the payroll restrictions in Cincinnati.

That's been one of my points all year. Everyone has been pointing to this Reds team and saying that the Reds would be able to make moves that others can't because of all their "chips." Yet the Reds are limited too and if the plan has always been to get what we need at the trading deadline, the Reds need to be prepared to overpay in talent to get the trade partner to cover the money. The excuse all Winter was that the Reds will win the roster battle at the deadline because of all the talent we have. Now we're here and many seem unwilling to deal that talent. The Reds are going to need to overpay for a rental or two and painfully so to make the money work IMO or plan on going forward as is and hope we get real lucky.

PuffyPig
07-14-2011, 12:49 PM
[QUOTE=cincrazy;2436677]I disagree with you. I don't think it's luck. It's being a proactive, well run organization. This team is not going to fall off the face of the earth. They get fantastic attendance, they have a great owner, an aggressive and smart GM. Fielder leaving hurts, but it won't cripple them. They simply find a way. [QUOTE]

You make it sound like the Brewers have had any kind of long term success.

They haven't.

They have traded all their propsects for what may well be a one year run, perhaps two years.

Unless their payroll is going to go over $100M, they won't be able to survive on FA's to fill their holes, and they will have them, and they won't have cheap prospects filling them.

757690
07-14-2011, 01:35 PM
You make it sound like the Brewers have had any kind of long term success.
They haven't.
They have traded all their propsects for what may well be a one year run, perhaps two years.
Unless their payroll is going to go over $100M, they won't be able to survive on FA's to fill their holes, and they will have them, and they won't have cheap prospects filling them.

Exactly. They went all in, gutted their farm system, exploded their payroll, and they are barely above .500.

They are going to lose their cleanup hitter, their Votto, and have no one to replace him, and have no prospects to trade to replace him, and no money to sign a free agent to replace him.

757690
07-14-2011, 01:42 PM
That's been one of my points all year. Everyone has been pointing to this Reds team and saying that the Reds would be able to make moves that others can't because of all their "chips." Yet the Reds are limited too and if the plan has always been to get what we need at the trading deadline, the Reds need to be prepared to overpay in talent to get the trade partner to cover the money. The excuse all Winter was that the Reds will win the roster battle at the deadline because of all the talent we have. Now we're here and many seem unwilling to deal that talent. The Reds are going to need to overpay for a rental or two and painfully so to make the money work IMO or plan on going forward as is and hope we get real lucky.

Both Cast and Walt have said that they can add to the payroll at the trade deadline. That was their reasoning for keeping it low at the start of this season and last. And considering the unexpected bump in attendance, I would imagine that they can spend even more than originally expected.

They made a solid effort to get Cliff Lee last deadline, and have made a similar effort to get Jimenez this off season. Cast handed out contracts in the offseason to all worthy players without blinking and has always shown a willingness to pay what it takes to win.

mth123
07-14-2011, 02:03 PM
Both Cast and Walt have said that they can add to the payroll at the trade deadline. That was their reasoning for keeping it low at the start of this season and last. And considering the unexpected bump in attendance, I would imagine that they can spend even more than originally expected.

They made a solid effort to get Cliff Lee last deadline, and have made a similar effort to get Jimenez this off season. Cast handed out contracts in the offseason to all worthy players without blinking and has always shown a willingness to pay what it takes to win.

They didn't go out and make dramatic increases to the annual payroll to try to win. They gave it a slight bump. Those contracts are over time and not really doing anything to increae the chances of winning in 2011. As for the contracts, the Bruce deal was stellar. The rest are pretty meh, IMO. I don't like the 4th year for Cueto, Votto and Hanigan got what they would have gotten in Arb anyway and the Arroyo deal was an ill advised way to save money in 2011 so they could add impact guys like Edgar Renteria and Fred Lewis.

I don't see the winning moves that many are seeing (because its what we all want to see). It was an 85 to 90 win team before those deals and still is. As for the commitment to winning, the annual payrolls are not going to dramatically jump as a result of those deals. They spent house money and nothing more IMO.

camisadelgolf
07-14-2011, 02:10 PM
For the record, this a move that the Brewers can make that the Reds simply can't. It's going to cost the Brewers approximately $4.9M to add a pitcher that basically amounts to Nick Massett. Those continuously whining about the Reds lack of moves made tend to forget the payroll restrictions in Cincinnati.
It's going to cost them $3.5M because the Brewers are only on the hook for the buyout. I find it hard to believe that less than half a season of any reliever is worth $3.5M plus two prospects, but I'm guessing that if the Reds really wanted to make a deal like this happen, they could offer better prospects and end up paying less money.

mdccclxix
07-14-2011, 02:18 PM
How much would the Reds spend for the goodwill of their fans?

traderumor
07-14-2011, 02:24 PM
How much would the Reds spend for the goodwill of their fans?What you win them with you win them to. If you start doing populous moves, then be ready to top it with the next one, then top that, etc. and so forth.

Caveat Emperor
07-14-2011, 02:30 PM
How much would the Reds spend for the goodwill of their fans?

The Reds don't need fan goodwill -- they need fans buying tickets and selling out weeknight games.

Homer Bailey
07-14-2011, 02:32 PM
It's going to cost them $3.5M because the Brewers are only on the hook for the buyout. I find it hard to believe that less than half a season of any reliever is worth $3.5M plus two prospects, but I'm guessing that if the Reds really wanted to make a deal like this happen, they could offer better prospects and end up paying less money.

I don't know where I read that they were on the hook for $4.9M, but it appears the $3.5 amount is accurate.

mth123
07-14-2011, 02:36 PM
How much would the Reds spend for the goodwill of their fans?

I personally don't expect the Reds or any team to go out and spend above their means to win. I just argue with the notion that the contracts in the offseason was showing some kind of commitment to winning. The Reds signed some talented guys who will fit within the frame work of their budget and merely promised money to those players that was earmarked as going towards players anyway. I don't see how it follows that because the Reds signed those deals they must be commited and will go out and break the bank to bring in players at the deadline which was the implication made not just in this thread but in many since the deals were inked.

mdccclxix
07-14-2011, 02:45 PM
It's going to cost them $3.5M because the Brewers are only on the hook for the buyout. I find it hard to believe that less than half a season of any reliever is worth $3.5M plus two prospects, but I'm guessing that if the Reds really wanted to make a deal like this happen, they could offer better prospects and end up paying less money.

Could be a trade and sign as well, similar to the Rolen deal. Rodriguez could be in the division a while if he agrees he's worth closer to 7-8 million. Depends how it plays out. Nevertheless, if the Brewers make the playoffs for the 2nd time in 30 years, it was a successful deal. Their fans weren't exactly holding the team for ransom, they'll show up either way, but lucky for them the owners don't take that for granted. They try to win, especially when it's for market rate cash and a few PTBNL's.

mdccclxix
07-14-2011, 02:46 PM
The Reds don't need fan goodwill -- they need fans buying tickets and selling out weeknight games.

It's rare those are mutually exclusive. The assumption is that winning = goodwill = attendance.

mdccclxix
07-14-2011, 02:47 PM
What you win them with you win them to. If you start doing populous moves, then be ready to top it with the next one, then top that, etc. and so forth.

This was a highly publicized move after it came out of nowhere, but it wasn't a populist move, it was the right move. The Brewers have 20 losses pinned to the bullpen, tops in MLB.

Homer Bailey
07-14-2011, 03:41 PM
This was a highly publicized move after it came out of nowhere, but it wasn't a populist move, it was the right move. The Brewers have 20 losses pinned to the bullpen, tops in MLB.

Brewers have the 3rd best RP xFIP in the NL. Losses is an extremely flawed stat.

Homer Bailey
07-14-2011, 03:47 PM
This was a highly publicized move after it came out of nowhere, but it wasn't a populist move, it was the right move. The Brewers have 20 losses pinned to the bullpen, tops in MLB.

Double post.

Chip R
07-14-2011, 03:50 PM
Brewers have the 3rd best RP xFIP in the NL. Losses is an extremely flawed stat.

Unless you're the team losing those games.

traderumor
07-14-2011, 04:14 PM
This was a highly publicized move after it came out of nowhere, but it wasn't a populist move, it was the right move. The Brewers have 20 losses pinned to the bullpen, tops in MLB.I was answering the question you asked about the Reds, which was about how much they would spend for fan goodwill. So, you think the Brewers did this to please their fans? I'm very confused about what the point of your question was now?

traderumor
07-14-2011, 04:17 PM
Brewers have the 3rd best RP xFIP in the NL. Losses is an extremely flawed stat.Stat alphabet soup. What is RP xFIP a measure of?

mdccclxix
07-14-2011, 04:20 PM
I was answering the question you asked about the Reds, which was about how much they would spend for fan goodwill. So, you think the Brewers did this to please their fans? I'm very confused about what the point of your question was now?

I think they did it to win games this year, which pleases fans. There is definitely a tone of mutual appreciation between the fans and FO in Milwaukee, though. The CC deal was a huge success, this one has potential as well.

Homer Bailey
07-14-2011, 04:22 PM
Stat alphabet soup. What is RP xFIP a measure of?

It's bullpen expected FIP given a normal HR/Fly Ball rate. (RP standing for relief pitcher, I should have just said bullpen).

mdccclxix
07-14-2011, 04:23 PM
Brewers have the 3rd best RP xFIP in the NL. Losses is an extremely flawed stat.

I think it holds more weight for relievers because they've been handed a lead or a tie and have .1 to 4 innings to seal the deal. If they lose the game that's a telling sign. More so than for a starter.

traderumor
07-14-2011, 04:29 PM
I think they did it to win games this year, which pleases fans. There is definitely a tone of mutual appreciation between the fans and FO in Milwaukee, though. The CC deal was a huge success, this one has potential as well.Ok, but your question implies that "fan goodwill" should be a primary motive for doing deals, whether its cash or players. It is a business, but the business is driven by success on the field, so any dealing is to that end, primarily. "Fan goodwill" is ancillary to all that, so it gets back to "I don't understand the point of your question because teams don't build teams with the intent of "buying fan goodwill."

Of course, when they're doing the victory speeches, they all lie and say "we did this for you great fans." Yea, rrrrrrrrright.

bucksfan2
07-14-2011, 04:33 PM
I think I applaud the Brewers for going all in this season. They have a very narrow window to compete for a division and they are making their best run at it. I am beginning to wonder if the Brewers of the future will begin to look like the current Astro's. Their farm system is lacking talent and what it had was traded away in the CC, Marcum, and Grienke deals. I can't help but think that they could have added a Health Bell or Mike Adams had there been a little more in the minor leagues. As it was they added a reliever by taking on salary and giving up two PTBNL's who factor to be organization fodder.

I have to think the Brewers window will last a year from right now. Prince in all likelihood will be gone at the end of the season. They may be able to replace him with a Derrick Lee or Carlos Pena type, but they won't be able to replace his bat. At next seasons trade deadline they may be forced with some tough buy/sell issues. But then again us Reds fans had been accustomed to waiting for next year. It sure would be nice to see all the chips pushed towards the middle and for it once in a while.

The Voice of IH
07-14-2011, 04:34 PM
I may be in the minority, but I find myself unimpressed. I read this as the Brewers reaching looking for anything to will give them that edge while sacrificing an already unimpressive, if not dead last horrible minor league system.

The Cincinnati Reds will not be caught making a bad or uneven trade. The Reds, like it or not, are in contention for the playoffs with what they have. Jocketty does not need to force anything right now. He needs to play within the system and make a deal that will not only help the team, but turn into a force to be reckon with in the last two month of the season.

mdccclxix
07-14-2011, 04:43 PM
Ok, but your question implies that "fan goodwill" should be a primary motive for doing deals, whether its cash or players. It is a business, but the business is driven by success on the field, so any dealing is to that end, primarily. "Fan goodwill" is ancillary to all that, so it gets back to "I don't understand the point of your question because teams don't build teams with the intent of "buying fan goodwill."

Of course, when they're doing the victory speeches, they all lie and say "we did this for you great fans." Yea, rrrrrrrrright.

Well, my line of thinking has to do with, winning=fan goodwill. In response to the thought the Brewers overpaid, I contend any extra they overpaid (perhaps just the PTBNL's) will go right to the bottom line, which is winning. So, it's not that they did this to placate an ornery fan base, or reward a happy one, per se, however they did this to win. As a result, the overall synergy between the FO and fan base is really good right now. Attendance is high. The outlook is good. Fans see the positive changes. It was a great move IMO. So, whatever they overpaid, if they did, the fans see it and appreciate it a lot. Reds fans felt we overpaid for Rolen, but look at what the winning brought in terms of attendance this year, not to mention overall trust in the FO. I'm looking forward to the Reds next "overpay", quite frankly.

mdccclxix
07-14-2011, 04:46 PM
I think I applaud the Brewers for going all in this season. They have a very narrow window to compete for a division and they are making their best run at it. I am beginning to wonder if the Brewers of the future will begin to look like the current Astro's. Their farm system is lacking talent and what it had was traded away in the CC, Marcum, and Grienke deals. I can't help but think that they could have added a Health Bell or Mike Adams had there been a little more in the minor leagues. As it was they added a reliever by taking on salary and giving up two PTBNL's who factor to be organization fodder.

I have to think the Brewers window will last a year from right now. Prince in all likelihood will be gone at the end of the season. They may be able to replace him with a Derrick Lee or Carlos Pena type, but they won't be able to replace his bat. At next seasons trade deadline they may be forced with some tough buy/sell issues. But then again us Reds fans had been accustomed to waiting for next year. It sure would be nice to see all the chips pushed towards the middle and for it once in a while.

Maybe in 2013 they'll feel a pinch, but what can happen between now and then? A lot. Braun should still be very prime around then. I'm cautious if I'm the Brewers, but not gloomy at all about the future. On top of that, I'm really eying the playoffs right now and it feels damn good.

mdccclxix
07-14-2011, 04:48 PM
I may be in the minority, but I find myself unimpressed. I read this as the Brewers reaching looking for anything to will give them that edge while sacrificing an already unimpressive, if not dead last horrible minor league system.

The Cincinnati Reds will not be caught making a bad or uneven trade. The Reds, like it or not, are in contention for the playoffs with what they have. Jocketty does not need to force anything right now. He needs to play within the system and make a deal that will not only help the team, but turn into a force to be reckon with in the last two month of the season.

I can see that perspective, but we don't know who the PTBNL's are yet, either. They said they weren't their top guys, but could probably play in the majors. That sounds like Dickerson or Ondrusek types, but again we'll see.

traderumor
07-14-2011, 05:58 PM
I think I applaud the Brewers for going all in this season. They have a very narrow window to compete for a division and they are making their best run at it. I am beginning to wonder if the Brewers of the future will begin to look like the current Astro's. Their farm system is lacking talent and what it had was traded away in the CC, Marcum, and Grienke deals. I can't help but think that they could have added a Health Bell or Mike Adams had there been a little more in the minor leagues. As it was they added a reliever by taking on salary and giving up two PTBNL's who factor to be organization fodder.

I have to think the Brewers window will last a year from right now. Prince in all likelihood will be gone at the end of the season. They may be able to replace him with a Derrick Lee or Carlos Pena type, but they won't be able to replace his bat. At next seasons trade deadline they may be forced with some tough buy/sell issues. But then again us Reds fans had been accustomed to waiting for next year. It sure would be nice to see all the chips pushed towards the middle and for it once in a while.

Shows how draft and develop only can be very short term in nature and risky because of the high failure rate of prospects. The Brewers system was riding high when Weeks, Fielder, Hart, et al were coming up through the system, but so far the payoff has been one division and in first place at the break in 2011. Now, for their system to be barren means that Melvin's subordinates have not been doing their job in the draft department for several years now.

The Brewers are currently an average team. I'm not sure KRod is going to make them above average. So, yea, they better do it this year.

mdccclxix
07-15-2011, 06:13 PM
Ken_Rosenthal Ken Rosenthal
Sources: K-Rod has agreed to waive $17.5M vesting option in exchange for additional compensation. Will be FA at end of season. MORE #MLB

#Brewers can now use K-Rod freely in closer's role without fear of option vesting. Option is gone. Games finished clause is gone.

757690
07-15-2011, 06:27 PM
Shows how draft and develop only can be very short term in nature and risky because of the high failure rate of prospects. The Brewers system was riding high when Weeks, Fielder, Hart, et al were coming up through the system, but so far the payoff has been one division and in first place at the break in 2011. Now, for their system to be barren means that Melvin's subordinates have not been doing their job in the draft department for several years now.

The Brewers are currently an average team. I'm not sure KRod is going to make them above average. So, yea, they better do it this year.

They did a fine job drafting and developing players. They just traded them all for CC, Greinke, Marcum et all.

traderumor
07-16-2011, 12:01 AM
They did a fine job drafting and developing players. They just traded them all for CC, Greinke, Marcum et all.I don't think so. You got to have more than that to be considered good at "draft and develop." Trading away the few who were major league talent isn't cutting it.

reds44
07-16-2011, 12:03 AM
I don't think so. You got to have more than that to be considered good at "draft and develop." Trading away the few who were major league talent isn't cutting it.
Or maybe you need to do when to hold onto your guys or deal them.

How many of the guys they've traded away has come back to hurt them? Understood that the Grienke and Marcum trades are probably too fresh to judge prospects.

hebroncougar
07-16-2011, 12:26 AM
Wow, I can't believe the union is going to allow him to take less compensation, and get the Brewers off the hook for that option.

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Brutus
07-16-2011, 12:34 AM
Wow, I can't believe the union is going to allow him to take less compensation, and get the Brewers off the hook for that option.

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk

He's not really getting less compensation. All they're doing is making the vesting option a mutual option and in return, the buyout is increasing. The option will still be for $17.5 million, they're just allowing both sides to sign off to it, but in exchange, if the Brewers don't pick up the option, they will pay $4 million as the buyout instead of $3.5 mil.

This is actually a good deal for K-Rod because the original vesting option was "games finished." If he were made their setup guy, he wouldn't have gotten it to vest anyhow. So in essence, the Brewers had leverage to increase the guaranteed buyout to give them flexibility in how they used him.

The Voice of IH
07-16-2011, 11:31 AM
They did a fine job drafting and developing players. They just traded them all for CC, Greinke, Marcum et all.

I would be willing to bet, that if Milwaukee could have a redo, they would never trade for CC. The complete collapse in the playoffs really hurt that franchise once Sabathia took off for pin stripes.

mth123
07-16-2011, 02:36 PM
I would be willing to bet, that if Milwaukee could have a redo, they would never trade for CC. The complete collapse in the playoffs really hurt that franchise once Sabathia took off for pin stripes.

Really?? Losing Matt Laporta and his career .704 OPS from the corner where that usually just gets a guy released set them back that much?

This is my issue with this whole "trading the future" bit. Its unlikely that anybody the Reds have to trade will be missed so much that it would damage the franchise. Most of the near ready guys don't have a place to play in Cincy anyway and keeping them around doesn't do much. I'm not in favor of Dealing Mes or the more than one of the Dayton bunch, but there isn't anyone else at AA or AAA that would be that big of a loss. Probably Travis Wood would be the biggest loss of the bunch, but if they could get a top starter, I'd say "see ya Travis."

If the Reds were rebuilding it would be a different isssue, but they have a contending team with holes to fill and a bunch of near ready guys with value and no place to play anyway. No one is saying deal all of them, but this team could part with 5 or 6 guys in a couple of deals and not skip a beat

Homer Bailey
07-16-2011, 03:35 PM
I would be willing to bet, that if Milwaukee could have a redo, they would never trade for CC. The complete collapse in the playoffs really hurt that franchise once Sabathia took off for pin stripes.

No way. That trade worked out perfectly for them.

reds44
07-16-2011, 03:44 PM
Since when did redszone start acting like making the playoffs was no big deal?

edabbs44
07-16-2011, 09:07 PM
Since when did redszone start acting like making the playoffs was no big deal?

Since Bruce hit the playoff clinching HR.

hebroncougar
07-17-2011, 10:14 AM
He's not really getting less compensation. All they're doing is making the vesting option a mutual option and in return, the buyout is increasing. The option will still be for $17.5 million, they're just allowing both sides to sign off to it, but in exchange, if the Brewers don't pick up the option, they will pay $4 million as the buyout instead of $3.5 mil.

This is actually a good deal for K-Rod because the original vesting option was "games finished." If he were made their setup guy, he wouldn't have gotten it to vest anyhow. So in essence, the Brewers had leverage to increase the guaranteed buyout to give them flexibility in how they used him.

So, he's got zero chance of getting $17.5 million, but he's getting $500K more for his buyout. That sounds like a lot less compensation. NO way do the Brewers pick up that option now, and he can finish games as they please.

mth123
07-17-2011, 11:48 AM
So, he's got zero chance of getting $17.5 million, but he's getting $500K more for his buyout. That sounds like a lot less compensation. NO way do the Brewers pick up that option now, and he can finish games as they please.

True, but he and everybody else knew he wasn't going to get the $17.5 Million. His choices were to take $500K and continue to get saves and save chances to enhance his next deal or to pass on the $500K and be a set-up man possibly reducing his value on the market. Sounds like a no brainer and a smart deal for the Brewers. They used the contract to pick-up a strong back-end arm for a song and then paid $500K to make that contract a non-issue.

In comparison. our GM made an ill advised extension with Bronson Arroyo to free-up 2011 money which he was able to parlay into impact talents like Fred Lewis and Edgar Renteria.

traderumor
07-18-2011, 10:59 AM
True, but he and everybody else knew he wasn't going to get the $17.5 Million. His choices were to take $500K and continue to get saves and save chances to enhance his next deal or to pass on the $500K and be a set-up man possibly reducing his value on the market. Sounds like a no brainer and a smart deal for the Brewers. They used the contract to pick-up a strong back-end arm for a song and then paid $500K to make that contract a non-issue.

In comparison. our GM made an ill advised extension with Bronson Arroyo to free-up 2011 money which he was able to parlay into impact talents like Fred Lewis and Edgar Renteria.Yea, because its fair to take a move another org. makes that you like and compare it with a move your team made that you don't like and call it a comparison.

mth123
07-18-2011, 07:39 PM
Yea, because its fair to take a move another org. makes that you like and compare it with a move your team made that you don't like and call it a comparison.

Say what you will, but no one in the Reds organization has had a worse year than Walt Jocketty.

redsmetz
08-01-2011, 04:54 PM
Article in the NY Times about how the Rodriguez trade came down, including him restructuring his contract clause about his option.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/01/sports/baseball/behind-scenes-of-a-trade-that-sent-mets-francisco-rodriguez-to-milwaukee.html?src=un&feedurl=http%3A%2F%2Fjson8.nytimes.com%2Fpages%2Fs ports%2Fbaseball%2Findex.jsonp

mdccclxix
12-08-2011, 10:48 AM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/12/what-k-rods-decision-means-for-brewers.html

Rodriguez accepts arbitration for close to 13 million with the Brewers, effectively ending any hope of them keeping Fielder, signing Aramis, or doing about anything else. They were looking at Saito or Hawkins for close to 3 million, but they blow 10 more million on what Rodriguez will bring...in the 8th inning. Bravo, Brewers! Best news of the winter meetings!

757690
12-08-2011, 11:11 AM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/12/what-k-rods-decision-means-for-brewers.html

Rodriguez accepts arbitration for close to 13 million with the Brewers, effectively ending any hope of them keeping Fielder, signing Aramis, or doing about anything else. They were looking at Saito or Hawkins for close to 3 million, but they blow 10 more million on what Rodriguez will bring...in the 8th inning. Bravo, Brewers! Best news of the winter meetings!

This means that they little ability to improve other key positions, like 3B and SS. A very big blow to the Brewers.

RedsManRick
12-08-2011, 11:20 AM
This means that they little ability to improve other key positions, like 3B and SS. A very big blow to the Brewers.

I'm pretty sure that the the arbitration deal is not-guaranteed. They could cut him in the Spring and get out from underneath most of that money.

757690
12-08-2011, 11:33 AM
I'm pretty sure that the the arbitration deal is not-guaranteed. They could cut him in the Spring and get out from underneath most of that money.

Interesting.

I thought all MLB contracts were guaranteed, but that was just an assumption. If that were the case, however, then why not always offer arbitration, if you can get out of it so easily? Just wondering. Would love to hear the rules in this situation.

Gallen5862
12-08-2011, 11:52 AM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/12/what-k-rods-decision-means-for-brewers.html



They can release him in Spring Training and only owe him 2.1 million (30 days pay). There's no reason for Melvin to act, or baseball writers to think that this is going to handicap the club. They should pursue their offseason as if KRod will cost them 2.1 mil, not 13 mil.

mdccclxix
12-08-2011, 12:00 PM
That is still a strange choice. 2 million for the privilege to maybe pay him 11 more million? Just decline arb with him and offer him what you'd really like to pay. Unless there was a buyout I'm not recalling that was for the same amount (2 mil)?

757690
12-08-2011, 12:04 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/12/what-k-rods-decision-means-for-brewers.html



They can release him in Spring Training and only owe him 2.1 million (30 days pay). There's no reason for Melvin to act, or baseball writers to think that this is going to handicap the club. They should pursue their offseason as if KRod will cost them 2.1 mil, not 13 mil.

Thanks :)

From same comment thread.


they CAN release him up to the 15th day of ST and pay him 30 days pay or from that 16th day forward (until the season begins) they would owe 45 days pay. That said, the releasing team has to have a legit reason to release said player or they will likely lose the grievance the PA would*inevitably file in addition to looking real bad to any player they might wish to sign in the future. SO to recap yes they can technically cut him, but doing so without a legit reason is probably gonna end poorly for them.

Looks like their best bet is to try to trade him. But even then, they'll have to eat a lot of salary.