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wlf WV
07-14-2011, 09:40 PM
Do the Cards think they can get Jeremy Hellickson for Rasmus?I would trump that offer.I would trade Stubbs for Hellickson.I think the Cards are way overpricing Rasmus and undervaluing Hellickson.I would hope we best their offer.

bshall2105
07-14-2011, 10:03 PM
Why would the Rays want Stubbs more than Rasmus? Oh and I also have no clue why they would trade Hellickson in the first place. He's good now and doesn't become a free agent until 2016.

wlf WV
07-14-2011, 11:51 PM
Why would the Rays want Stubbs more than Rasmus? Oh and I also have no clue why they would trade Hellickson in the first place. He's good now and doesn't become a free agent until 2016.
Stubbs - WAR 2.1
Rasmus - WAR .6
The idea sounded absurd to me too.I wanted to make the point that we could trump the Cards offers.

bigredmechanism
07-15-2011, 12:06 AM
Stubbs - WAR 2.1
Rasmus - WAR .6

The idea sounded absurd to me too.I wanted to make the point that we could trump the Cards offers.

Wow tbh I would have expected those numbers to be reversed. I do think that Colby is the better player, but WAR does not back me up I guess LOL.

He has had a tough year, compared to last. I expected Colby to be a very good player in his career, and still do.

frenchlickgolf
07-15-2011, 12:33 AM
Stubbs will b fine I think he will take off in second half..this guys potential is unlimited..people r giving up on him after a year n half in the league be patient..helickson is untouchable

Razzle
07-15-2011, 03:16 AM
Stubbs - WAR 2.1
Rasmus - WAR .6
The idea sounded absurd to me too.I wanted to make the point that we could trump the Cards offers.

I'm not sure there is any team that would think a Stubbs offer would trump a Rasmus one. At 23 Stubbs was OPS'ing .788 through 3 stops in the minors. Rasmus was OPS'ing .859 at the major league level. Sure he's struggled this year, but he still posted a 4.3 WAR season as a 23 year old last year and with any rebound at all will likely post a 3 WAR this year (he's at 1.6, not 0.6 on Fangraphs WAR scale, which is better than BBRef's imo). This is no slight to Stubbs, I just don't think he has the trade value that Rasmus does. Stubbs is definitely a much better defensive outfielder at this point.

Stray
07-15-2011, 11:19 AM
Stubbs is super frustrating but when he does get on base good things usually happen. Rasmus has been pretty bad this year.

swaisuc
07-15-2011, 11:44 AM
Stubbs will b fine I think he will take off in second half..this guys potential is unlimited..people r giving up on him after a year n half in the league be patient..helickson is untouchable

I have almost the opposite take on Stubbs. I think Stubbs is pretty much a finished product (for better or worse). He swings and misses far too much to ever hit for AVG and his plate discipline is going to keep his walks from making up for it. He does have some pop and can do some damage on the base paths, but he is already doing that. He's also an adaquate CF. My opinion, not picking on anyone in particular, is that people tend to project people to what they want them to be. For instance, Stubbs already drives the ball and has the speed, just wait until he takes a BA and/or OBP leap so we can finally have our leadoff hitter! The problem is, that isn't the type of player Stubbs is and there really is nothing to indicate it ever will be. He may be capable of having some great stretches or even a big career year (see BJ Upton) if he gets some things to bounce his way, but I think on a yearly basis we're going to be looking at more of what we see this year. Thats hardly worthless, but I would trade it for Hellickson.

Anyway, I would trade either of these OF's for Hellickson without hesitation. Which is a better offer is splitting hairs IMO.

The other issue is whether the Reds feel that have any backup plan at CF if they were to move Stubbs.

izzy's dad
07-15-2011, 01:59 PM
Rasmus seems like a d bag. I don't know him personally, but he just comes across as a giant ******. I don't know, I could be dead wrong. I will take Stubbs based on ability and attitude. And I do agree that it would be impossible to pry Hellickson away from Tampa.

wlf WV
07-15-2011, 02:52 PM
I agree with swaisuc. I would trade either of these OF's for Hellickson without hesitation.

Magdal
07-15-2011, 06:23 PM
Rasmus seems like a d bag. I don't know him personally, but he just comes across as a giant ******. I don't know, I could be dead wrong. I will take Stubbs based on ability and attitude. And I do agree that it would be impossible to pry Hellickson away from Tampa.He's not a D bag. He is a functional idiot. He's like JD Drew minus the talent.

Newman4
07-15-2011, 06:39 PM
I'm not sure there is any team that would think a Stubbs offer would trump a Rasmus one. At 23 Stubbs was OPS'ing .788 through 3 stops in the minors. Rasmus was OPS'ing .859 at the major league level. Sure he's struggled this year, but he still posted a 4.3 WAR season as a 23 year old last year and with any rebound at all will likely post a 3 WAR this year (he's at 1.6, not 0.6 on Fangraphs WAR scale, which is better than BBRef's imo). This is no slight to Stubbs, I just don't think he has the trade value that Rasmus does. Stubbs is definitely a much better defensive outfielder at this point. Rasmus is two years younger and Stubbs plays better defense. Actually, it depends on what the other team values. Rasmus is not really a CF and should be a corner OF. Neither does much as far as BA. Rasmus has kinda slumped or possibly regressed to his true mean after that .859 OPS in his second season. The question is which player is Rasmus? The first and third year guy with the .700 something OPS or the second year guy? Stubbs at least consistent with his .250/.325/.425 type line. In the end, why would TB trade Hellickson for either one of them?

Hillsdale87
07-15-2011, 11:07 PM
Rasmus had a great first half of the year last year and since has not been very good. As frustrating as Stubbs can be, he's a much better player at this point. More power, more speed, and better defense. And he has a much higher ceiling. Rasmus strikes out less, but Stubbs has a much higher ceiling IMO

bigredmechanism
07-15-2011, 11:14 PM
I feel like the is a sentiment growing that pitching has gotten a lot stronger over the last couple of years. While I can agree with that, I couldn't see Tampa trading a guy like Hellickson for Rasmus (Who I think will be a very good player btw.) Colby is one of those guys I kinda wish was on the Reds. Tough season so far, but he is young and has a very good swing. That being said, Hellickson could be the real deal.

Razzle
07-16-2011, 12:10 AM
Rasmus had a great first half of the year last year and since has not been very good. As frustrating as Stubbs can be, he's a much better player at this point. More power, more speed, and better defense. And he has a much higher ceiling. Rasmus strikes out less, but Stubbs has a much higher ceiling IMO

Stubbs isn't close to being a much better player and I'm not sure he has a higher ceiling as he's two years older and closer to being a finished product than Rasmus is. One of these players was a top 5 prospect one was a fringe top 100 prospect. Rasmus has a career 111 OPS, Stubbs 101. Rasmus walks more and K's less. Stubbs has better speed, but it's not by a ton. Rasmus is easily the fastest player on the Cards and if turned loose could be a 25-30 SB guy. Very rarely do LaRussa players steal many bags. I'm also not sure where you get more power from as Rasmus has a higher career ISOP despite hitting in pitcher friendly Busch as opposed to GABP.

You are right that if Stubbs fixes all his holes he's the better player, but you can say the same about any player and those holes are why he wasn't a very highly rated prospect.

And as far as Colby for Hellickson it's not going to happen. More of a pipe dream for Cards fans than anything, but Rasmus could fetch Shields or be the main cog in doing so.

10xWSChamps
07-16-2011, 12:16 AM
Rasmus had a great first half of the year last year and since has not been very good. As frustrating as Stubbs can be, he's a much better player at this point. More power, more speed, and better defense. And he has a much higher ceiling. Rasmus strikes out less, but Stubbs has a much higher ceiling IMO

Stubbs is two years old. Rasmus is 24 years old right now. That makes all the difference in the world as far as trade ability and ceiling.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/stubbdr01.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/rasmuco01.shtml

Colby is having a better year except defensively.

Colby's defense is an enigma, he was an elite fielder in the minors. He has the skill to track balls down and will make spectacular plays. Yet he lets easy balls bounce by him. He fails to hit cut off men. His throws can be wild sometimes.

I think the situation with his crazy father should scare away or excite teams. I think he could use a change of scenery. He's having trouble handling the pressure. He said recently that he was working on things during the all star breaks and hopes "to be the player everyone wants [him] to be" in the second half.

Rasmus has had a better career so far and has done it in ages 22-24. Stubbs has been up from ages 24-26. Again, big difference there. Colby also comes with a pedigree.

10xWSChamps
07-16-2011, 12:19 AM
As a Cards fan it would be tough to see Colby go. He has so much talent. But I think it may be best for all involved if he does go. THere were rumors that Colby asked for a trade last year. Colby's father does it on the internet and talks about how he'll never live up to expectations in St Louis.

Playing for the Cardinals is hard I'm sure. Not to brag or anything, honestly, but having 40,000 fans every night at home watching you intently and having intense media scrutiny after you had been touted as the farm's best prospect for years has to be hard. Colby is quiet and while not a bad thing, I think he's too introspective and has a hard time shrugging things off. When he's hot, he looks like the best player in baseball. When he is cold, he is lost at the plate

bshall2105
07-16-2011, 01:19 AM
Stubbs isn't close to being a much better player and I'm not er ceiling as he's two years older and closer to being a finished product than Rasmus is. One of these players was a top 5 prospect one was a fringe top 100 prospect. Rasmus has a career 111 OPS, Stubbs 101. Rasmus walks more and K's less. Stubbs has better speed, but it's not by a ton. Rasmus is easily the fastest player on the Cards and if turned loose could be a 25-30 SB guy. Very rarely do LaRussa players steal many bags. I'm also not sure where you get more power from as Rasmus has a higher career ISOP despite hitting in pitcher friendly Busch as opposed to GABP.



I agree with almost all of that other than one thing. Rasmus is nowhere near being as fast as Drew Stubbs. I just had to get that out there.