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I(heart)Freel
07-16-2011, 02:44 PM
I look forward to scouring the Cards fan sites tonight during the game to see what they're saying about BPhil's homerun antics. "Act like you've been there..." blah blah blah.

In the meantime and on a related note, can someone who watched last night's game on TV help me understand what the Pujols shush/finger kiss thing was when he crossed home plate? He seemingly looked at the fans in the diamond seats and did it. Might be a weird sign of affection for his wife or family there or something? Or it might be... something else.

I'm not a pot-stirrer by nature. So I tend to believe this just is something he does or something innocuous. But if not... well... let's just say Dave Duncan should be warming up his vocal cords in the late innings tonight.

I(heart)Freel
07-16-2011, 02:53 PM
Here's a screen grab...

reds44
07-16-2011, 02:57 PM
The only thing that would have made Phillips' home run "trot" (lol) better would have been if he gave Pujols the finger as he rounded first.

Tommyjohn25
07-16-2011, 02:59 PM
I'm sick of people saying he's so perfect. He stands there longer than anyone and shows up the opposing pitcher when he goes deep. Oh but he's "Sir Albert" so it'll just go ignored. His act is old and transparent IMO.

Oh, and he sure does heal fast. Just sayin'.

RedLegSuperStar
07-16-2011, 03:11 PM
Funny how he magically returns from a month and a half injury in just 2 weeks.. ive said it once and ive said it before.. he is a user of performance enhansing drugs and he has the guru of ped's as a hitting coach. He is the face of the league and nothing and I mean nothing will happen to him because MLB doesn't want to loose anymore fanbase especially since NMB and NFL have taking hits with their lockouts.

camisadelgolf
07-16-2011, 03:11 PM
I was at the game, and the place sure did get quiet after that home run. Now I know why.

I(heart)Freel
07-16-2011, 03:22 PM
Funny how he magically returns from a month and a half injury in just 2 weeks.. ive said it once and ive said it before.. he is a user of performance enhansing drugs and he has the guru of ped's as a hitting coach. He is the face of the league and nothing and I mean nothing will happen to him because MLB doesn't want to loose anymore fanbase especially since NMB and NFL have taking hits with their lockouts.

I don't think it's anything so diabolical. It is very Tony though. Give just enough info to not lie, per se, but clearly hold back facts that paint the entire picture so that you alone can have the whole story. They did it with the rain in May and they did it with Pujols injury.

dougdirt
07-16-2011, 03:26 PM
Funny how he magically returns from a month and a half injury in just 2 weeks.. ive said it once and ive said it before.. he is a user of performance enhansing drugs and he has the guru of ped's as a hitting coach. He is the face of the league and nothing and I mean nothing will happen to him because MLB doesn't want to loose anymore fanbase especially since NMB and NFL have taking hits with their lockouts.

I have to ask.... do PED's make bones heal faster? I honestly don't know, but I had never heard of it until you suggested it. I know it aids in the recovery of softer parts of our body, but Pujols broke a bone.

But to be honest, I have zero problem with guys standing there watching their HR. If you don't want them to do it, don't serve it up. Simple as that IMO. Adults shouldn't be having their feelings hurt because someone wants to watch their HR.

Homer Bailey
07-16-2011, 03:28 PM
I have to ask.... do PED's make bones heal faster? I honestly don't know, but I had never heard of it until you suggested it. I know it aids in the recovery of softer parts of our body, but Pujols broke a bone.

But to be honest, I have zero problem with guys standing there watching their HR. If you don't want them to do it, don't serve it up. Simple as that IMO. Adults shouldn't be having their feelings hurt because someone wants to watch their HR.

I don't either, but you and your teammates can't get pissy when another team does it. I think I remember Pujols saying something about Carlos Lee doing it as a Brewer, and we know about Garcia and Carpenter's antics.

kbrake
07-16-2011, 03:29 PM
I don't either, but you and your teammates can't get pissy when another team does it. I think I remember Pujols saying something about Carlos Lee doing it as a Brewer, and we know about Garcia and Carpenter's antics.

This post pretty much nails the Cardinals from top to bottom. They can not handle losing.

VR
07-16-2011, 03:45 PM
I'd love nothing more than to have a Red pose like Pujols did on on both the homer, and the one Heisey brought back in.....against Carpenter tonight.

Brutus
07-16-2011, 04:02 PM
I have to ask.... do PED's make bones heal faster? I honestly don't know, but I had never heard of it until you suggested it. I know it aids in the recovery of softer parts of our body, but Pujols broke a bone.

But to be honest, I have zero problem with guys standing there watching their HR. If you don't want them to do it, don't serve it up. Simple as that IMO. Adults shouldn't be having their feelings hurt because someone wants to watch their HR.

HGH is said to promote bone regeneration. I will try to locate the link, but I read at one time that a study concluded it helped regeneration by as much as 20% of normal healing.

It would make sense, as normal recurring HGH in the body helps with energy, bone healing, muscle formation, aids the organs, etc.

fearofpopvol1
07-16-2011, 04:18 PM
I would love for a ball to be thrown and hit Pujols on the bum tonight. I don't see that happening, but it would be great.

dougdirt
07-16-2011, 04:19 PM
HGH is said to promote bone regeneration. I will try to locate the link, but I read at one time that a study concluded it helped regeneration by as much as 20% of normal healing.

It would make sense, as normal recurring HGH in the body helps with energy, bone healing, muscle formation, aids the organs, etc.

That does make some sense now that you said it. If you find the link I would love to read it. If not, it isn't a big deal. :thumbup:

Strikes Out Looking
07-16-2011, 04:55 PM
I believe the fact that he healed in amazing time is suspicious enough that the Commissioner should step in and investigate it. There is no rationale reason for it, nor is there any reason that his elbow, which was going to cause him to miss significant time due to surgery a few years ago, has magically healed.

Matt700wlw
07-16-2011, 04:59 PM
I threw the HGH thing up on another thread, when he returned....it was kind of half serious at the time....

Brutus
07-16-2011, 05:05 PM
That does make some sense now that you said it. If you find the link I would love to read it. If not, it isn't a big deal. :thumbup:

I looked for it, but can't find it. Another good one I had read that was similar is still around, but now hidden behind a paywall lol

http://www.springerlink.com/content/k3l335625065262w/

I'm obviously not a doctor, but from what I understand, HGH helps with most of the bone density/healing, muscle formation, helps keep youthful, healthy skin and assists many of the organs of the body. But because HGH subsides when we get older, especially stops secreting into our 30's, we become susceptible to more broken bones, have to work harder to maintain our muscle mass and lose the energy we had as kids.

So when someone takes synthetic HGH, it helps restore these things. Broken bones that most 30-year olds would see heal in 4-6 weeks could be cut by a quarter or more. We start looking and feeling like we're younger. I've read that properly induced HGH could theoretically extend a natural life by 10-15 years.

I guess what I take away from my understanding of the drug is that a baseball player could most definitely have a huge benefit by taking it. It could make them heal quicker, feel more energetic on a daily basis and extend their careers by several years.

reds1869
07-16-2011, 05:06 PM
PEDs are one possible explanation, but I think typical LaRussaesque gamesmanship is another. It would be just like the Cardinals organization to claim Pujols will be out for an extended time when he was fully expected to return earlier.

nemesis
07-16-2011, 05:16 PM
HGH is said to promote bone regeneration. I will try to locate the link, but I read at one time that a study concluded it helped regeneration by as much as 20% of normal healing.

It would make sense, as normal recurring HGH in the body helps with energy, bone healing, muscle formation, aids the organs, etc.

There are two types of HGH. Fragment and Whole. Fragment helps build soft tissue up, increase the lubrication in you joints, regains healthier and tighter skin and promotes insane weight loss.

The Whole HGH does all the above and impoves densities and growth in your bone structure. The biggest way to tell if someone is on it is... Knobbier knees and elbows. Gaps in their teeth and the Bonds effect... A massive change in facial structure. Jaw line, forhead.

Growth did play a part in his recovery. Not. A. Doubt.


One one thing... HGH is a longterm use drug. U have to be on it 6 months before you really start feeling the benifits of it. So it wasn't like he magically useded it for 2 weeks and got better.

757690
07-16-2011, 05:20 PM
These two internet articles back up Brutus' point I have no idea how reliable they are, but there are over a dozen more that say the same thing.

HGH Helps Heal Bones Faster (http://www.hgh-advice.com/healing-injuries.html)

HGH Helps Heal Bones Faster (http://baago.com/2011/07/10/the-role-of-hgh-in-healing-injuries/)

reds44
07-16-2011, 05:38 PM
I don't either, but you and your teammates can't get pissy when another team does it. I think I remember Pujols saying something about Carlos Lee doing it as a Brewer, and we know about Garcia and Carpenter's antics.
Yep. I have no problem with looking at your homers either. I also have no problems with talking crap.

I'm about as "new school" as you'll get. The more emotion the better.

The Voice of IH
07-16-2011, 05:39 PM
Well........

I am not saying this has anything to do with it, but last time the Cardinals was in town, I received tickets from the Linider family for the Sunday game. I was Rowdy, college rowdy. It got to the point where multiple Cardinals looked up to me and the event staff was trying to back me off a bit. He is shushing at the same seat I was sitting at (view photo for proof). Maybe the fan that was sitting there that day was also rowdy, and the Pujols had enough?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-nK1KYMt1bwI/TiEaPnJ_26I/AAAAAAAAACY/TrCEPsHyrSQ/s320/39163_493487818288_775638288_6745130_2269580_n.jpg

AtomicDumpling
07-16-2011, 07:23 PM
Funny how he magically returns from a month and a half injury in just 2 weeks.. ive said it once and ive said it before.. he is a user of performance enhansing drugs and he has the guru of ped's as a hitting coach. He is the face of the league and nothing and I mean nothing will happen to him because MLB doesn't want to loose anymore fanbase especially since NMB and NFL have taking hits with their lockouts.

It obviously wasn't a six week injury. The bone wasn't broken. Several Cardinals have said Pujols was doing pushups and 70 pound curls with that arm the day after it supposedly "broke". No PEDS can heal a broken arm in one day. The six week estimate was just misinformation put out by the Cardinals.

reds44
07-16-2011, 07:37 PM
Yeah, Pujols said he felt like he could play the day after it happened.

MikeThierry
07-17-2011, 02:54 PM
I believe the fact that he healed in amazing time is suspicious enough that the Commissioner should step in and investigate it. There is no rationale reason for it, nor is there any reason that his elbow, which was going to cause him to miss significant time due to surgery a few years ago, has magically healed.

As I have said in multiple posts, the Pujols injury was way overblown by the Cardinals organization. Atomic said it best, he was doing pushups and lifting 70 pound weights the next day after the injury. What the injury was is basically a hairline fracture to the forearm, which would have not taken a month or so to heal. I can understand why people would question the injury but I think before one questions the injury they actually need to get the full story on the injury itself instead of making wild speculations and accusations.

On the Pujols hushing thing, I noticed it too. However, I think some fans in that section were messing with him the whole game. There was another camera angle that night that showed him interacting with fans in that same area. I think the whole situation was some fans were giving him trouble all night long and basically he told him to shut up after he hit that bomb. I haven't really seen Pujols do anything like that before so it isn't the norm from his character.

Strikes Out Looking
07-17-2011, 02:58 PM
It obviously wasn't a six week injury. The bone wasn't broken. Several Cardinals have said Pujols was doing pushups and 70 pound curls with that arm the day after it supposedly "broke". No PEDS can heal a broken arm in one day. The six week estimate was just misinformation put out by the Cardinals.

In either case, an investigation is warranted by the commissioner's office. If it wasn't broken, and they overstated the injury, it could have an effect on Pujols in free agency (drive his price down), so it is in the interests of the Cardinals to lie about it. This is not in the best interests of either competition or the player's union.

If they weren't lying and it really was broken and he healed in record time, then his medical records should be examined by the commissioner's office. While I realize there is no agreement with the players union to test for HGH with blood samples, I wish there was a way in egregious situations to do it.

In any case, 2+2 doesn't equal 4 in this case.

kaldaniels
07-17-2011, 03:11 PM
I haven't really seen Pujols do anything like that before so it isn't the norm from his character.

Is this true Redszone? Ever?

MikeThierry
07-17-2011, 03:20 PM
In either case, an investigation is warranted by the commissioner's office. If it wasn't broken, and they overstated the injury, it could have an effect on Pujols in free agency (drive his price down), so it is in the interests of the Cardinals to lie about it. This is not in the best interests of either competition or the player's union.

If they weren't lying and it really was broken and he healed in record time, then his medical records should be examined by the commissioner's office. While I realize there is no agreement with the players union to test for HGH with blood samples, I wish there was a way in egregious situations to do it.


Yes because no organization in the history of baseball has ever faked an injury or lied about an injury.... *cough* Chapman *cough* :rolleyes:

Why would there be an investigation of someones medical records when there isn't a testing for HGH or anything like that? I'm sure the MLBPA would have a field day if they did that, even more so than anything untoward the Cardinals organization did.

It is also flawed to think that the Cardinals organization overstating an injury would drive a players price down. That became a mute point once Pujols came back from injury.

Really, you are making way too much of the situation than you really should be. Again, you should actually read and understand the injury he actually had rather than go off of hearsay.

remdog
07-17-2011, 03:59 PM
Well, Mike continues to be a Card homer and appologist. I have no idea why he is even here. Maybe the Cardinal boards won't let him post so this is the next best thing.

Pujols is the best hitter I've seen except for Ted Williams. But the Cardinals continual skirting of the rules, flaunting of the traditions, constant complaining and dipstick players and manger's personalities are rapidly making them one of the least liked teams in baseball---and deservedly so, IMO.

Rem

Brutus
07-17-2011, 04:09 PM
Yes because no organization in the history of baseball has ever faked an injury or lied about an injury.... *cough* Chapman *cough* :rolleyes:

Why would there be an investigation of someones medical records when there isn't a testing for HGH or anything like that? I'm sure the MLBPA would have a field day if they did that, even more so than anything untoward the Cardinals organization did.

It is also flawed to think that the Cardinals organization overstating an injury would drive a players price down. That became a mute point once Pujols came back from injury.

Really, you are making way too much of the situation than you really should be. Again, you should actually read and understand the injury he actually had rather than go off of hearsay.

How would you deduce Chapman was throwing in the low or mid 90's and not actually have been injured? Guys that aren't injured or suffering from extreme arm/shoulder fatigue don't typically lose 10 MPH off their fastball in-season.

Even a hairline fracture, Pujols wouldn't likely have been doing pushups the next day. So if that is true about the pushups, the Cards pretty much lied about the entire injury. They're free to do as they please, but it's kind of bush league.

MikeThierry
07-17-2011, 04:26 PM
Well, Mike continues to be a Card homer and appologist. I have no idea why he is even here. Maybe the Cardinal boards won't let him post so this is the next best thing.

Pujols is the best hitter I've seen except for Ted Williams. But the Cardinals continual skirting of the rules, flaunting of the traditions, constant complaining and dipstick players and manger's personalities are rapidly making them one of the least liked teams in baseball---and deservedly so, IMO.

Rem


Nice shot there, per your usual when responding to one of my posts Rem. I'm going to defend a player, esp. a Cardinals player, when there are accusations of PED use. You would do the same if I came in here bashing Votto and accusing him of something that was unfounded. I would never do something like on here though. Its low class. I'm going to defend Pujols here because there is a complete ignorance of the injury and HGH on its uses by some of the posters.

Brutus, it is absolutely true that Pujols was doing pushups and lifting weights the very next day. Again, it was an injury overblown by the Cards. It was probably a cautionary projection on the Cards part, which happens with a lot with baseball teams.

Brutus
07-17-2011, 04:32 PM
Nice shot there, per your usual when responding to one of my posts Rem. I'm going to defend a player, esp. a Cardinals player, when there are accusations of PED use. You would do the same if I came in here bashing Votto and accusing him of something that was unfounded. I would never do something like on here though. Its low class. I'm going to defend Pujols here because there is a complete ignorance of the injury and HGH on its uses by some of the posters.

Brutus, it is absolutely true that Pujols was doing pushups and lifting weights the very next day. Again, it was an injury overblown by the Cards. It was probably a cautionary projection on the Cards part, which happens with a lot with baseball teams.

What I'm saying is that if it's true he was doing pushups and lifting weights the next day, it's more likely the injury wasn't "overblown" but rather totally fabricated. There's nothing cautionary about saying there's a hairline fracture then doing those things the next day. Stress fractures don't heal by putting a lot of pressure on them and can tend to worsen if you do. So the Cards didn't "overblow" the injury. They flat out fabricated it if it's true about the pushups and weights.

GAC
07-17-2011, 04:42 PM
Nice shot there, per your usual when responding to one of my posts Rem. I'm going to defend a player, esp. a Cardinals player, when there are accusations of PED use. You would do the same if I came in here bashing Votto and accusing him of something that was unfounded. I would never do something like on here though. Its low class. I'm going to defend Pujols here because there is a complete ignorance of the injury and HGH on its uses by some of the posters.

Brutus, it is absolutely true that Pujols was doing pushups and lifting weights the very next day. Again, it was an injury overblown by the Cards. It was probably a cautionary projection on the Cards part, which happens with a lot with baseball teams.

I agree. I don't believe Albert is a user, and have said so in the past. He's simply an elite ballplayer. But because of the steroid era, that means you must be on something.

The Card's medical staff is not perfect. Neither is ours. Especially if you listen to this forum and their assessment of Kremchek.

jojo
07-17-2011, 05:01 PM
It's very presumptuous to conclude that growth hormone can effectively speed recovery or even increase athletic ability. The claim that HGH is a PED isn't well supported by the science.

cincrazy
07-17-2011, 05:02 PM
Well, Mike continues to be a Card homer and appologist. I have no idea why he is even here. Maybe the Cardinal boards won't let him post so this is the next best thing.

Pujols is the best hitter I've seen except for Ted Williams. But the Cardinals continual skirting of the rules, flaunting of the traditions, constant complaining and dipstick players and manger's personalities are rapidly making them one of the least liked teams in baseball---and deservedly so, IMO.

Rem

I have an idea why he's here, and it's because he's level-headed, stays out of petty arguments, and enjoys discussing the game in a rational manner. I think instead of trying to drive people like Mike away, we should try and embrace them. He brings a lot to the board, and to ignore that fact is showing homerism on your part. I don't care if they're Cubs fans or Yankees fans or Cards fans. This is a place for people that love the game of baseball.

And Mike, you have every right to defend Pujols, and you shouldn't even have to defend Pujols. There's not a shred of evidence linking him to PED use. I understand the caution after the era we just witnessed, and I would never swear on my life that ANY ballplayer is not using steroids. But it's unfair to pin his quick recovery on some imaginary drug. If it was Yadier Molina instead of Albert Pujols nobody would be saying a freaking thing about it.

MikeThierry
07-17-2011, 05:04 PM
What I'm saying is that if it's true he was doing pushups and lifting weights the next day, it's more likely the injury wasn't "overblown" but rather totally fabricated. There's nothing cautionary about saying there's a hairline fracture then doing those things the next day. Stress fractures don't heal by putting a lot of pressure on them and can tend to worsen if you do. So the Cards didn't "overblow" the injury. They flat out fabricated it if it's true about the pushups and weights.

Well the thing is that Pujols was on the DL for 2 weeks. He did have an injury of some kind. Even if it was overstated by the Cards it doesn't change the fact that Pujols missed time with some sort of injury. Pujols is the kind of player that has always played with injuries his whole career so it may have been a mix of the Cards misstating the injury and Pujols wanting to come back to play. What Pujols says generally goes, esp. in a contract year when the Cards are trying to resign him. When he came back, he was still wearing a brace and didn't do well at the plate. Recently he has started to drive the ball better and him being "locked" in would coincide with that four week time frame that he was scheduled to come back from. I have watched him from day one and the guy is always doing things to help his team out whether its him playing 3rd base with a bad arm on a contract year or play through injuries. That is why it didn't surprise me much when he came back early from this recent injury.

MikeThierry
07-17-2011, 05:06 PM
It's very presumptuous to conclude that growth hormone can effectively speed recovery or even increase athletic ability. The claim that HGH is a PED isn't well supported by the science.

I agree with that. I have felt the same way when Jose Bautista has been discussed numerous times on this board. He is a guy I just feel that has figured it out at the plate and it is a bit unfounded to assume he is on PED's or HGH. Its the same sort of issue with Pujols.

Brutus
07-17-2011, 05:08 PM
It's very presumptuous to conclude that growth hormone can effectively speed recovery or even increase athletic ability. The claim that HGH is a PED isn't well supported by the science.

I want to be clear on this, you're suggesting the effects of HGH aren't supported by science? Is that really your position?

There are many studies that show HGH does effectively speed recovery or increase athletic ability. Google is your friend.

You do realize, of course, that HGH is a naturally occurring chemical in your body that is decreased with age, right? It's the very thing that gives you energy and supports your bone and muscle structures. So when a player hypothetically takes HGH, he's literally getting his body back to as if he were 20 years old while in his late 20's or even in his 30's.

Seriously man... this isn't even debatable. HGH is literally a bodily supplement to something we produce naturally. It simply increases the supply that we otherwise stop secreting before we reach middle age. It's been vetted by science. It's an FDA approved, legal drug. There's a reason the drug has been dubbed the 'fountain of youth' drug for several years.

This isn't remotely a question. HGH does do those things. The question isn't whether they help. They absolutely would. Why wouldn't they? There's a reason it's tougher to stay in shape with age...there's a scientific reason for that. HGH supplements all those things we lose with age. The only question here is whether Pujols or other players are taking it.

I strongly urge you to rethink your position. Science, or rather basic anatomy, is on the side of HGH.

Brutus
07-17-2011, 05:14 PM
Well the thing is that Pujols was on the DL for 2 weeks. He did have an injury of some kind. Even if it was overstated by the Cards it doesn't change the fact that Pujols missed time with some sort of injury. Pujols is the kind of player that has always played with injuries his whole career so it may have been a mix of the Cards misstating the injury and Pujols wanting to come back to play. What Pujols says generally goes, esp. in a contract year when the Cards are trying to resign him. When he came back, he was still wearing a brace and didn't do well at the plate. Recently he has started to drive the ball better and him being "locked" in would coincide with that four week time frame that he was scheduled to come back from. I have watched him from day one and the guy is always doing things to help his team out whether its him playing 3rd base with a bad arm on a contract year or play through injuries. That is why it didn't surprise me much when he came back early from this recent injury.

Why did he "have" to?

You were just telling me the Cards overblew the injury and greatly exaggerated it. Why isn't it possible he simply didn't have an injury, or at least nothing more than a bump and a bruise?

If the Cardinals went to such great lengths to exaggerate it, which clearly they did, then I don't see why he necessarily even "had" to be hurt. Heck, perhaps it's possible they screwed up the diagnosis, put him on the DL, and realized the next day it wasn't what they thought it was. I don't have any clue what happened. But clearly if they're not being straight with the truth, you have to conclude anything is possible.

MikeThierry
07-17-2011, 05:26 PM
Why did he "have" to?

You were just telling me the Cards overblew the injury and greatly exaggerated it. Why isn't it possible he simply didn't have an injury, or at least nothing more than a bump and a bruise?

If the Cardinals went to such great lengths to exaggerate it, which clearly they did, then I don't see why he necessarily even "had" to be hurt. Heck, perhaps it's possible they screwed up the diagnosis, put him on the DL, and realized the next day it wasn't what they thought it was. I don't have any clue what happened. But clearly if they're not being straight with the truth, you have to conclude anything is possible.


Umm... he was out two weeks. Pujols has done everything to play through injuries his whole career. I don't think he would take a two week vacation from the team that needs him.

That said, anything is possible. They could have screwed up the diagnosis. However, the way they dealt with the Matt Holliday situation this year leads me to believe that Pujols had a legit injury of some kind. Matt Holliday was dealing with a quad injury yet let him play through it. This was an enormously stupid thing to do because what turned into a possible 2 week DL stint turned into a month of missing Holliday. Pujols has too much pull in the Cardinals organization where he would not be given the benefit of doubt and wouldn't have the ability to play through the injury. It just doesn't make much sense to let Matt Holliday play through the injury but not allow the star player of the team, who has shown a history of playing through injuries, not to play through this one.

Brutus
07-17-2011, 05:56 PM
Umm... he was out two weeks. Pujols has done everything to play through injuries his whole career. I don't think he would take a two week vacation from the team that needs him.

That said, anything is possible. They could have screwed up the diagnosis. However, the way they dealt with the Matt Holliday situation this year leads me to believe that Pujols had a legit injury of some kind. Matt Holliday was dealing with a quad injury yet let him play through it. This was an enormously stupid thing to do because what turned into a possible 2 week DL stint turned into a month of missing Holliday. Pujols has too much pull in the Cardinals organization where he would not be given the benefit of doubt and wouldn't have the ability to play through the injury. It just doesn't make much sense to let Matt Holliday play through the injury but not allow the star player of the team, who has shown a history of playing through injuries, not to play through this one.

Once they put him on the DL, he HAD to be out two weeks. You can't come off the DL before 15 days.

Based on what you've stated is true, either the Cardinals lied about the injury or they misdiagnosed it and had already put him on the DL and didn't want to do a mea culpa.

remdog
07-17-2011, 06:21 PM
Well Mike, that was not a 'shot' as you called it. It was a very astute observation regarding your biased obsevations on the Cardinals.

First of all Mike, I never said Pujoles was on PED's; personally, I don't think he is. I do think that he is a very talented hitter (as I said above) and I would bet that his body will hold up at least for another 5-6 contract.

In Southern California there are fans from almost every team. I meet a lot of them; I talk to a lot of them. The two most hated teams are the Yankees and the Red Sox. In my unofficial poll the Cards have surpassed the Cubs and the Dodgers (yes, even in SoCal) as the third most hated team. They are percieved as arrogant, crybabies, willing to bend the rules and Mark MGwire being on the staff doesn't help the perception.

Redszone: For Reds fans, by Reds fans. It's at the top of the board on every page. Learn it, love it, live it.

jojo
07-17-2011, 06:48 PM
I want to be clear on this, you're suggesting the effects of HGH aren't supported by science? Is that really your position?
I thought it was clear that my position was that the effects youíre concluding HGH can produce in adults arenít supported by science.

The vast majority of the assumed benefits of GH are associated with effects that are seen during normal growth and development (i.e. before reaching adult size). A majority of scientific studies in adults have failed to demonstrate a performance enhancing effect for HGH. Much of the abuse by adults would appear to be due to supposition about itís actual effects (i.e itís just assumed HGH will do those things).


There are many studies that show HGH does effectively speed recovery or increase athletic ability. Google is your friend.

I'd suggest that PubMed and an understanding of the literature is far more useful than google concerning this issue. HGH biology is incredibly complex and its effects depend upon the variant, dose and age of the individual-all things we donít currently understand fully. Studies examining the effect of HGH at normal levels throughout a personís lifetime and in response to taking supplements have yielded conflicting results. The literature just doesnít support a conclusion that HGH has dramatic effects upon athletic performance in adults.


You do realize, of course, that HGH is a naturally occurring chemical in your body that is decreased with age, right? It's the very thing that gives you energy and supports your bone and muscle structures. So when a player hypothetically takes HGH, he's literally getting his body back to as if he were 20 years old while in his late 20's or even in his 30's.

GH does not give you energy-itís actually diabetogenic in adults. When a player in his thirties takes a prolonged regimen of supraphysiological doses of HGH, he is literally promoting metabolic problems, inappropriate enlarging of the heart, abnormal structural changes to his muscle fibers, and acromegly. In other words, HGH might be the last thing a professional athlete would want to put into his body for a prolonged period of time.

Again, many of growth hormoneís effects are seen when the body is still developing (i.e. during childhood). It should not be assumed that the essential effects that HGH exhibits during growth and development can be extrapolated to the adult.


Seriously man... this isn't even debatable.

Dr Gary Wadler is a professor of medicine at New York University and heís the chairman of the Banned Substances committee of the World Anti-Doping Agency. Here is his position on the subject:




WOLFF: And do you believe that it does help athletes to recuperate from injury?

Dr. WADLER: You know, these literature on that is really not very supportive of that. In fact, it's more of a hearsay kind of thing than any good science studies supporting it. Although, there are some articles here and there, it's just you might have some effect, but certainly no major effect.

The effectiveness of HGH as a PED in professional baseball players is an extremely debatable issue...


HGH is literally a bodily supplement to something we produce naturally. It simply increases the supply that we otherwise stop secreting before we reach middle age. It's been vetted by science. It's an FDA approved, legal drug. There's a reason the drug has been dubbed the 'fountain of youth' drug for several years.

HGH is approved for human use within a very narrow range of circumstances that do not include ďregaining oneís youthĒ. These circumstances generally entail very serious medical conditions in adults.


This isn't remotely a question. HGH does do those things. The question isn't whether they help. They absolutely would. Why wouldn't they? There's a reason it's tougher to stay in shape with age...there's a scientific reason for that. HGH supplements all those things we lose with age. The only question here is whether Pujols or other players are taking it.

Again, your position is begging the question concerning the effect of HGH in adult athletes.


I strongly urge you to rethink your position. Science, or rather basic anatomy, is on the side of HGH.

The suggestion that HGH abuse cut Pujolsí recovery time by half or more simply isnít supported by the scientific literature.

I strongly urge you spend more time reading the scientific literature while retaining an open mind. In the words of Claude Bernard, "it is what we think we know already that prevents us from learningĒ.

Brutus
07-17-2011, 07:08 PM
"it is what we think we know already that prevents us from learningĒ.

Plus Plus
07-17-2011, 07:14 PM
Redszone: For Reds fans, by Reds fans. It's at the top of the board on every page. Learn it, love it, live it.


RedsZone was built upon the idea that members would have an opportunity to discuss their team by making intelligent posts in an environment that was free from the type of nastiness that became commonplace at Cincinnati.com. Invitations were extended to a group of people who we thought could best carry out this mission. The site become an instant hit, as users migrated from the old forum to RedsZone and word of mouth eventually reached other online Reds sites. Many of our initial members still post here to this day and are an especially valued group.

As a result, quality discussion and civility toward your fellow members are musts for posting here. We donít look favorably upon topics that state little more than you think a player sucks or the like. Itís encouraged that you have opinions, but you should be able to back them up before convincing others. By the same token, itís also very important to be respectful of others who may not follow or approach the game in the same manner that you do. Nastiness and condescending attitudes toward members will not be tolerated

Nowhere does it say that if you are a fan of a team other than the Reds that you are not welcome here. In fact, it says above that you should be respectful of others who follow the game in a different manner. If there are members of Redszone who are unable to follow this very simple part of the "about us" that can also be found at the top of every page then I suggest that they take their act elsewhere.

This is the final warning that you will see from this moderator regarding inappropriate comments towards those who are fans of other teams. Play nice or, if you find yourself unable to do so, play somewhere else.

Griffey012
07-17-2011, 07:25 PM
Pujols shush things is a mere non-issue. It's baseball, it is a heated rivalry, and it was a big time home run. Not to mention shushing at a few people in the crowd is not showing anybody up, in fact for the fans he was shushing out they probably got a bit of a laugh out of it if they had been razzing him the entire game.

Pujols isn't perfect but he is one of the more classy players in the game. If he wasn't on the Cards a lot of people on here would think very highly of him. But the fact he is on the Cards he gets roped in with TLR, Duncan, Carp, etc. He was the player after the Cordero incident who took the high/classy road and said it's baseball and that it wasn't intentional...meanwhile the rest of the Cards were being themselves.

Captain Hook
07-17-2011, 07:59 PM
I agree. I don't believe Albert is a user, and have said so in the past. He's simply an elite ballplayer. But because of the steroid era, that means you must be on something.

The Card's medical staff is not perfect. Neither is ours. Especially if you listen to this forum and their assessment of Kremchek.

I'd love it if they were wrong just once the way the Cardinals staff was with Albert.Usually it goes from two weeks to a month to a season ending injury.:lol:

MikeThierry
07-17-2011, 09:06 PM
I thought it was clear that my position was that the effects youíre concluding HGH can produce in adults arenít supported by science.

The vast majority of the assumed benefits of GH are associated with effects that are seen during normal growth and development (i.e. before reaching adult size). A majority of scientific studies in adults have failed to demonstrate a performance enhancing effect for HGH. Much of the abuse by adults would appear to be due to supposition about itís actual effects (i.e itís just assumed HGH will do those things).



I'd suggest that PubMed and an understanding of the literature is far more useful than google concerning this issue. HGH biology is incredibly complex and its effects depend upon the variant, dose and age of the individual-all things we donít currently understand fully. Studies examining the effect of HGH at normal levels throughout a personís lifetime and in response to taking supplements have yielded conflicting results. The literature just doesnít support a conclusion that HGH has dramatic effects upon athletic performance in adults.



GH does not give you energy-itís actually diabetogenic in adults. When a player in his thirties takes a prolonged regimen of supraphysiological doses of HGH, he is literally promoting metabolic problems, inappropriate enlarging of the heart, abnormal structural changes to his muscle fibers, and acromegly. In other words, HGH might be the last thing a professional athlete would want to put into his body for a prolonged period of time.

Again, many of growth hormoneís effects are seen when the body is still developing (i.e. during childhood). It should not be assumed that the essential effects that HGH exhibits during growth and development can be extrapolated to the adult.



Dr Gary Wadler is a professor of medicine at New York University and heís the chairman of the Banned Substances committee of the World Anti-Doping Agency. Here is his position on the subject:



The effectiveness of HGH as a PED in professional baseball players is an extremely debatable issue...



HGH is approved for human use within a very narrow range of circumstances that do not include ďregaining oneís youthĒ. These circumstances generally entail very serious medical conditions in adults.



Again, your position is begging the question concerning the effect of HGH in adult athletes.



The suggestion that HGH abuse cut Pujolsí recovery time by half or more simply isnít supported by the scientific literature.

I strongly urge you spend more time reading the scientific literature while retaining an open mind. In the words of Claude Bernard, "it is what we think we know already that prevents us from learningĒ.

+1 for science

GAC
07-18-2011, 06:27 AM
Why did he "have" to?

You were just telling me the Cards overblew the injury and greatly exaggerated it. Why isn't it possible he simply didn't have an injury, or at least nothing more than a bump and a bruise?

If the Cardinals went to such great lengths to exaggerate it, which clearly they did, then I don't see why he necessarily even "had" to be hurt. Heck, perhaps it's possible they screwed up the diagnosis, put him on the DL, and realized the next day it wasn't what they thought it was. I don't have any clue what happened. But clearly if they're not being straight with the truth, you have to conclude anything is possible.

Respectfully Brutus - You sound like one of the jurors on the Casey Anthony trial with this "anything is possible" position.

You claim the Cardinals organization went to great lengths to exaggerate his injury when you state "clearly they did". And that they have not been straight with the truth.

I find this ridiculous. What advantage were they gaining, or trying to gain, by exaggerating his injury and hiding the truth? There's no conspiracy here. They did an MRI and CT scan the next day. How do you exaggerate those results which were straightforward and conclusive.....

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=6680924


The injury is a non-displaced fracture of the left radius bone and his arm is in a splint.

Mozeliak said he hoped to have Pujols back by the beginning of August and the team anticipated no lingering effects from what the general manager described as a small fracture.

As with any injury they estimated 4-6 weeks. A lot can happen in two weeks from a healing standpoint. I had a friend at work who tore his bicep muscle back in March in a home accident. The initial prognosis was 6 months (end of August) before he could return to work. He came back to work last week with no restrictions. And from a physical conditioning standpoint he wasn't anywhere close to a professional athlete, and especially a Pujol.

It's obvious Albert's injury healed enough that the determination was made he could come back earlier then expected. End of story as far as I'm concerned.

Brutus
07-18-2011, 02:53 PM
Respectfully Brutus - You sound like one of the jurors on the Casey Anthony trial with this "anything is possible" position.

You claim the Cardinals organization went to great lengths to exaggerate his injury when you state "clearly they did". And that they have not been straight with the truth.

I find this ridiculous. What advantage were they gaining, or trying to gain, by exaggerating his injury and hiding the truth? There's no conspiracy here. They did an MRI and CT scan the next day. How do you exaggerate those results which were straightforward and conclusive.....

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=6680924



As with any injury they estimated 4-6 weeks. A lot can happen in two weeks from a healing standpoint. I had a friend at work who tore his bicep muscle back in March in a home accident. The initial prognosis was 6 months (end of August) before he could return to work. He came back to work last week with no restrictions. And from a physical conditioning standpoint he wasn't anywhere close to a professional athlete, and especially a Pujol.

It's obvious Albert's injury healed enough that the determination was made he could come back earlier then expected. End of story as far as I'm concerned.

I said "clearly they did" if it's true he was lifting weights the very next day after his injury. That's Mike's position that it was reported he was lifting weights the very next day. In fact Mike himself has asserted they exaggerated the injury.

I think that IS pretty clearly an exaggeration of an injury that was supposed to take 4-6 weeks to heal, don't you?

RBA
07-18-2011, 02:57 PM
Probably a ploy to keep him out of the All-Star game so he could take some time off and rest up for the rest of the season. A two week vacation probably could do some Reds players some good. And with the All-Star break those 15 days actually is about 9 to 11 games missed. Prime opportunity, good move by the Cardinals.

GAC
07-18-2011, 07:06 PM
I said "clearly they did" if it's true he was lifting weights the very next day after his injury. That's Mike's position that it was reported he was lifting weights the very next day. In fact Mike himself has asserted they exaggerated the injury.

I think that IS pretty clearly an exaggeration of an injury that was supposed to take 4-6 weeks to heal, don't you?

This article, which is basically in-line with what I said, answers that question as well as numerous others (lifting weights).....

Why Pujols returned so fast; Lester on DL

http://espn.go.com/sports/fantasy/blog/_/name/bell_stephania/id/6743611


This is a great reminder that not all injuries are created equal, that time frames for return to play should always be looked at as guidelines and that everyone heals at different rates.

The only ones who may be exaggerating his injury (making it worse then it was) can be found on here. ;)

Brutus
07-18-2011, 07:29 PM
This article, which is basically in-line with what I said, answers that question as well as numerous others (lifting weights).....

Why Pujols returned so fast; Lester on DL

http://espn.go.com/sports/fantasy/blog/_/name/bell_stephania/id/6743611



The only ones who may be exaggerating his injury (making it worse then it was) can be found on here. ;)

If someone is lifting weights one day after being diagnosed with an injury that was supposed to keep him sidelined 4-6 weeks, the injury was exaggerated. I will stand behind that position.

We can put lipstick on a pig a number of different ways, dress it up and debate the merits of injuries, but I don't believe for a second the knowledge of the severity of an injury changed dramatically in one day's time. I appreciate the article, but the explanation really doesn't jive for me.

I find all the reporting after the fact either to be window dressing for a miraculous heal or simply for some sort of botched diagnosis to begin with.

cincrazy
07-19-2011, 01:05 AM
Well Mike, that was not a 'shot' as you called it. It was a very astute observation regarding your biased obsevations on the Cardinals.

First of all Mike, I never said Pujoles was on PED's; personally, I don't think he is. I do think that he is a very talented hitter (as I said above) and I would bet that his body will hold up at least for another 5-6 contract.

In Southern California there are fans from almost every team. I meet a lot of them; I talk to a lot of them. The two most hated teams are the Yankees and the Red Sox. In my unofficial poll the Cards have surpassed the Cubs and the Dodgers (yes, even in SoCal) as the third most hated team. They are percieved as arrogant, crybabies, willing to bend the rules and Mark MGwire being on the staff doesn't help the perception.

Redszone: For Reds fans, by Reds fans. It's at the top of the board on every page. Learn it, love it, live it.

Boss has gone out of his way to say the Cardinals fans that are respectful are more than welcome. Fact.

GAC
07-19-2011, 06:43 AM
If someone is lifting weights one day after being diagnosed with an injury that was supposed to keep him sidelined 4-6 weeks, the injury was exaggerated. I will stand behind that position.

And that's fine if you want to hold to that position, but you're purposely ignoring the facts as to the extent of the injury, as well as it's location, while being hung up on "he was lifting weights the next day, so the injury was exaggerated".

When I saw the video and the amount of pain he was in, and then heard the word "fracture" I naturally though he broke a bone in his arm, and that was bad news.


Pujols suffered a fracture of his left distal radius (the tip of the forearm bone on the thumb side, just above the small carpal bones of the wrist). While it involved the wrist area, it was not an injury specifically within the joint, making it a much less complex problem. It was reported as a hairline crack, small and difficult to see initially on imaging. The bone was not completely broken in two (or more) pieces and it was nondisplaced, meaning everything remained in good alignment.

He was still able to grip.

So then why the 4-6 week prognosis? Because there was still a hairline fracture, and you're dealing with a professional athlete whose career is dependent upon his health, being 100%. And if you ask anyone involved in sports medicine (orthopaedic surgeons, physical therapist, strength/conditioning) they will tell you that you always error on the side of caution. Always. Those in the medical field have to protect themselves too. And you're also ignoring the fact that Pujols is a strength and conditioning nut who keeps himself in excellent shape.

Now if they had said a two week prognosis, and he came back, wasn't fully healed, and aggravated the injury to the extent he was out for the season, or jeopardized his career, then I'd say it was a botched misdiagnosis.

Monday night, MLB Network aired the first part of a two part interview with Pujols. Part 2 airs Tuesday. But here is Monday night's interview where he talks about the injury. And it completely jives with the article I previously posted.

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?topic_id=7417714

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?topic_id=7417714


So again - why would the Card's medical staff exaggerate the injury? What was to gained by it? If you're going to suggest that, then you have to have a reason as to the why?

I(heart)Freel
07-19-2011, 01:23 PM
You surely can understand some Reds fans' skepticism on the matter when a national writer essentially asks the same questions.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AtTdWL4BzUIk_V36nT8ht0M5nYcB?slug=jp-passan_pujols_comeback_mcgwire_rumors_070511

As for the why... why would the Cards purposefully exaggerate the initial injury? Simple. Under-promise, over-deliver. It's psychological. You get a boost in confidence as a fan (as a ticket buyer) and as a teammate when your star player returns early. You get the opposite when he doesn't come back in time. Call it a mind-game, sure.

Haven't the Cards given Reds fans reason to think they aren't above mind-games?

MikeThierry
07-19-2011, 07:54 PM
And that's fine if you want to hold to that position, but you're purposely ignoring the facts as to the extent of the injury, as well as it's location, while being hung up on "he was lifting weights the next day, so the injury was exaggerated".

When I saw the video and the amount of pain he was in, and then heard the word "fracture" I naturally though he broke a bone in his arm, and that was bad news.



He was still able to grip.

So then why the 4-6 week prognosis? Because there was still a hairline fracture, and you're dealing with a professional athlete whose career is dependent upon his health, being 100%. And if you ask anyone involved in sports medicine (orthopaedic surgeons, physical therapist, strength/conditioning) they will tell you that you always error on the side of caution. Always. Those in the medical field have to protect themselves too. And you're also ignoring the fact that Pujols is a strength and conditioning nut who keeps himself in excellent shape.

Now if they had said a two week prognosis, and he came back, wasn't fully healed, and aggravated the injury to the extent he was out for the season, or jeopardized his career, then I'd say it was a botched misdiagnosis.

Monday night, MLB Network aired the first part of a two part interview with Pujols. Part 2 airs Tuesday. But here is Monday night's interview where he talks about the injury. And it completely jives with the article I previously posted.

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?topic_id=7417714

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?topic_id=7417714


So again - why would the Card's medical staff exaggerate the injury? What was to gained by it? If you're going to suggest that, then you have to have a reason as to the why?

Pretty much right on. When I say the Cards exgagerrated the injury a bit, I'm not saying their diagnosis was wrong. I think they just errored on the side of caution, which a lot of clubs do with their players especially if that player is a superstar. In the video above, Pujols even explained that he was hitting the ball off the tee something like two days after being placed on the DL.

By the way, that video from the MLB Network is great. The Diamond Demos he did in Studio 42 shows why he is one of the smartest players in the game. His breakdown of defense at 1st is a much watch, in my opinion, for kids learning to play 1st base effectively.

GAC
07-21-2011, 06:11 AM
I realize it's only natural, part of the game, for fans to hate their competition. Rivalries are good for baseball. I was fortunate enough to be a part of the old Reds-Dodgers rivalry, and there was no love lost between those two. But we are also talking about two very good, and talented, teams butting heads and battling it out during the 70s. And for the most part the Reds held the bragging rights when you count division titles/World Series.

That has not been the case between the Reds and Cardinals for the most part. The Reds have been fighting futility for a decade, while the Cards, mainly under the Jocketty tenure, have been proven winners. Since the mid-90s, between the two, who possesses the lion's share of division titles, pennants, and WS rings? For the most part, the Cards have reigned in this division.

Well, hopefully, beginning last year, and from the Red's standpoint, that has started to change. And personally, with the Cards use to being on top so consistently, maybe taking it for granted, I don't think they like it. And in response to that "revived" competition we've seen some demonstrations of arrogance from some of their players, manager, and coaching staff as they are now being challenged. But so what? If the tables were turned, I think we'd be doing the same.

As the Reds have shown improvement, have there not be demonstrations of arrogance on their part as this rivalry between them and the Cards becomes more valid? We love to highlight situations like this Pujols shush-thing, something Carpenter says, or even LaRussa; but what about remarks made by Votto or Phillips which were meant to incite? And then of course there was that brawl last season.

Man, this is baseball, and I think that kind of competitive spirit, that intense rivalry, when something is actually on the line, is good for the game... and the fans love it!

Pujol is not a perfect human being. He has his quirks. He's been called every name in the book including a prima donna. So what? Griffey Jr wasn't? The BRM had some of the biggest swelled heads in baseball. I not only look at what a player does on the field, but also off the field. And guys like Jr and Pujols, regardless of their on-field personalities, are solid examples of two players who are involved, do give back off -the -field, and IMO, are role models.

I could care less about this shushing thing anymore if a Reds player did it to Card fans. Of course we, as Red fans, would love that when it occurs. It's all part of the game and competition. Take it with a grain of salt.