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View Full Version : Now bring up Alonso and Sappelt



Kc61
07-17-2011, 04:03 PM
Cozart seems to have been ready. Lewis and Gomes at this point are simply role players with limited upside.

I suggest the Reds now replace Gomes and Lewis with Alonso and Sappelt.

This would change and hopefully improve the outfield mix. Dusty could have a new three-headed monster in LF, with Heisey, Alonso, Sappelt.

Sappelt would provide further depth in CF.
Alonso could spell Votto if need be and play some left field against some of the righties.

Probably won't happen, but it could improve the team.

Ron Madden
07-17-2011, 04:07 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing this happen. :)

In fact I'd love to see this happen. :beerme:

just to be rid of Gomes.

fearofpopvol1
07-17-2011, 04:10 PM
Sappelt hasn't looked so great as of late.

Alonso on the other hand I think is probably ready offensively, but defensively? Also, they may want to keep Alonso down there in the case they do trade him before the deadline.

Always Red
07-17-2011, 04:19 PM
Sappelt hasn't looked so great as of late.

Alonso on the other hand I think is probably ready offensively, but defensively? Also, they may want to keep Alonso down there in the case they do trade him before the deadline.

They could really use Alonso's LH bat off the bench, and I've been surprised by how bad Lewis actually is in LF. I really think Gomes is better out there defensively than Lewis.

Lewis brings nothing; I like having Alonso and Gomes both off the bench with big bats when matched up against the right pitching.

I'd wait on Sappelt until next year, or when they figure out what they're going to do with Heisey- either play him or trade him.

Brutus
07-17-2011, 04:22 PM
Cozart seems to have been ready. Lewis and Gomes at this point are simply role players with limited upside.

I suggest the Reds now replace Gomes and Lewis with Alonso and Sappelt.

This would change and hopefully improve the outfield mix. Dusty could have a new three-headed monster in LF, with Heisey, Alonso, Sappelt.

Sappelt would provide further depth in CF.
Alonso could spell Votto if need be and play some left field against some of the righties.

Probably won't happen, but it could improve the team.

Cozart has all of 20 at-bats. Pitchers haven't had a chance to learn him yet.

Give it another couple weeks and I imagine we'll be seeing different results. I'm not saying he can't succeed or won't play well, but I'd wait to proclaim he was "ready."

We've seen this happen too many times. Juan Francisco looked like a world-beater for a few weeks, then struggled thereafter. History is littered with players that light the world on fire for a few weeks in the bigs before settling into mediocre careers.

Let me reemphasize: I'm not saying Cozart won't do well, but his current success, whether sustainable or not, has no bearing on whether the other two are "ready" so to speak.

Personally, I don't think Alonso is ready and I also don't think it's wise to bring him up. Let him continue hitting in AAA until the Reds know what they'll be doing with him.

mth123
07-17-2011, 04:27 PM
I'd be OK with it, but Sappelt seems to have come back to Earth. I'd call up Alonso now though. If they don't want him in LF, then end the charade and make a deal. If he's acceptable there, then get him up.

Lewis is the guy I'd cut loose. He's an awful defender (worse than Gomes) can't steal bases anymore, has no power and his one trick (table setting versus RHP) is wasted hitting in the 7 hole and would fit better elsewhere.

I'd platoon Alonso and Gomes in LF and leave them in the 5th spot. Stubbs would lead-off in CF, and Bruce would hit 4th in RF. Heisey would spot in all three places, start 4 times or so each week and hit where-ever in the order the guy he's replacing hits. On a rare occassion, Alonso could give Votto a rest and Heisey play LF. Good teams have good players coming off the bench and Heisey fits well in that role.

When Francisco comes back, I'd call him up next and cut Renteria loose. Cairo could play SS once every 10 days or so. In an emergency, Janish can be here the next day.

Kc61
07-17-2011, 04:36 PM
Cozart has all of 20 at-bats. Pitchers haven't had a chance to learn him yet.

Give it another couple weeks and I imagine we'll be seeing different results. I'm not saying he can't succeed or won't play well, but I'd wait to proclaim he was "ready."

We've seen this happen too many times. Juan Francisco looked like a world-beater for a few weeks, then struggled thereafter. History is littered with players that light the world on fire for a few weeks in the bigs before settling into mediocre careers.

Let me reemphasize: I'm not saying Cozart won't do well, but his current success, whether sustainable or not, has no bearing on whether the other two are "ready" so to speak.

Personally, I don't think Alonso is ready and I also don't think it's wise to bring him up. Let him continue hitting in AAA until the Reds know what they'll be doing with him.

Prospects do have to adjust. They will have hills and valleys. I still would bring up Alonso and Sappelt. Overall, I think they can contribute more than Reds are getting now in LF.

Sappelt has hit a dip at AAA. Short term swings aren't the point. Overall I think he can contribute more than we are getting from Jonny right now. Sappelt is more of a contact/OBP guy which the Reds can use.

I've read that Alonso is doing better in LF. He certainly has been a consistent hitter this year.

Go for it. Bring 'em up. And as for Francisco, I'm a fan, but he's hurt, so not an option right now.

reds44
07-17-2011, 04:46 PM
I don't think Sappelt is an upgrade from anyone right now. You can argue for Alonso, but that's not going to happen until after the deadline (if at all).

Always Red
07-17-2011, 04:48 PM
Cozart has all of 20 at-bats. Pitchers haven't had a chance to learn him yet.

Give it another couple weeks and I imagine we'll be seeing different results. I'm not saying he can't succeed or won't play well, but I'd wait to proclaim he was "ready."



Yep- Cozart has looked good so far, but the "book" is being written on him even as we speak. Once the adjustments begin, we'll see if he can adjust to the adjustments. He has weaknesses, all hitters and fielders do, and they will be ruthlessly exploited.

I'll say this for him- he looks confident, and acts like he belongs. That's a good start. He doesn't have Janish's gun, but few SS's do.

Brutus
07-17-2011, 04:53 PM
Prospects do have to adjust. They will have hills and valleys. I still would bring up Alonso and Sappelt. Overall, I think they can contribute more than Reds are getting now in LF.

Sappelt has hit a dip at AAA. Short term swings aren't the point. Overall I think he can contribute more than we are getting from Jonny right now. Sappelt is more of a contact/OBP guy which the Reds can use.

I've read that Alonso is doing better in LF. He certainly has been a consistent hitter this year.

Go for it. Bring 'em up. And as for Francisco, I'm a fan, but he's hurt, so not an option right now.

I really like Sappelt, but I don't think it's a given he (or even Alonso) are going to give any more production than they're getting now.

I kind of get the feeling that the Reds will wind up with Ryan Ludwick. His numbers don't look good on their face, but his OPS+ is literally about average and given he's in a pitcher's park with a terrible lineup around him, he's probably still better than his numbers would show.

Kc61
07-17-2011, 04:56 PM
I really like Sappelt, but I don't think it's a given he (or even Alonso) are going to give any more production than they're getting now.

I kind of get the feeling that the Reds will wind up with Ryan Ludwick. His numbers don't look good on their face, but his OPS+ is literally about average and given he's in a pitcher's park with a terrible lineup around him, he's probably still better than his numbers would show.

Is Ludwick a free agent or a signed player?

I'd hate to see the Reds go for rentals in their situation. I'd rather keep the prospects.

Brutus
07-17-2011, 04:57 PM
Is Ludwick a free agent or a signed player?

I'd hate to see the Reds go for rentals in their situation. I'd rather keep the prospects.

He's a free agent, but I sincerely doubt he's going to cost the Reds a top-tier prospect to acquire. I think they could get him for a B-prospect

Big Klu
07-17-2011, 05:09 PM
Yep- Cozart has looked good so far, but the "book" is being written on him even as we speak. Once the adjustments begin, we'll see if he can adjust to the adjustments. He has weaknesses, all hitters and fielders do, and they will be ruthlessly exploited.

I'll say this for him- he looks confident, and acts like he belongs. That's a good start. He doesn't have Janish's gun, but few SS's do.

I think Cozart has a quicker release, though.

Mario-Rijo
07-17-2011, 05:09 PM
I don't think Alonso is an answer at all period. The guy I saw briefly in the futures game doesn't appear to have changed his elongated swing, major league pitchers will eat him up. Sappelt though I believe can be of use to this team at the top of the lineup. Coming back to earth or just an inevitable valley, probably the latter. Gomes would go if it were up to me, he's not really helping much and with Sapp and Heisey there is no need for him. We really could use a good LH bat off the bench, Lewis is no world beater but unfortunately he is the best we have currently, he may actually improve a bit as we go forward, he did start off injured. I suspect the guy other than Sappelt who is ready or close is Mes but no room for him currently.

JaxRed
07-17-2011, 05:24 PM
I'm not a big fan of Lewis because he doesn't bring much to the table. No power, moderate speed, moderate defense. So I'd rather see a Heisey/Gomes platoon in LF.

But, I'm not sold on bringing up Alonso. Being a lefty, he doesn't help with spelling either Bruce or Votto.

The one guy that might make some sense is Frazier as super sub. Can play LF, 3b, 1b. and could be emergency SS. Could spell help spell Votto or Bruce.

I'd consider losing Renteria for Frazier.

Always Red
07-17-2011, 05:29 PM
I'm not a big fan of Lewis because he doesn't bring much to the table. No power, moderate speed, moderate defense. So I'd rather see a Heisey/Gomes platoon in LF.

But, I'm not sold on bringing up Alonso. Being a lefty, he doesn't help with spelling either Bruce or Votto.

The one guy that might make some sense is Frazier as super sub. Can play LF, 3b, 1b. and could be emergency SS. Could spell help spell Votto or Bruce.

I'd consider losing Renteria for Frazier.

I agree, wholeheartedly. He might even be the Reds next 3B.

I'd do that along with dumping Lewis for Alonso, for the reasons I gave above.

Unless they can trade a bunch of those prospects for a stud TOR starter- which is the Reds biggest need, IMO. Great pitching today covered up a lot of offensive ineptitude (though to be fair, I think Garcia is a fine pitcher).

Kc61
07-17-2011, 05:31 PM
I'm not a big fan of Lewis because he doesn't bring much to the table. No power, moderate speed, moderate defense. So I'd rather see a Heisey/Gomes platoon in LF.

But, I'm not sold on bringing up Alonso. Being a lefty, he doesn't help with spelling either Bruce or Votto.

The one guy that might make some sense is Frazier as super sub. Can play LF, 3b, 1b. and could be emergency SS. Could spell help spell Votto or Bruce.

I'd consider losing Renteria for Frazier.

I don't agree on Alonso. He can spell Bruce, Votto and play some left.

You don't sit Votto or Bruce in a lefty/righty platoon. You rest them occasionally. You don't need a righty hitter to replace them.
It can be a lefty.

The Reds have three lefty hitting position players on the whole team. That is a deficiency. IMO it is one reason why they can't beat tough righties like Carpenter very often.

Other teams load up with lefties against certain tough righties. The Reds can't do that. They have only Votto, Lewis, and Bruce.

I'd like to add lefty hitting. I'd like to upgrade the lefty hitting. I think Alonso can help do that.

CrackerJack
07-17-2011, 06:03 PM
Can you get rid of a guy who has a bobblehead night coming up? :)

PuffyPig
07-17-2011, 06:06 PM
I'm not a big fan of Lewis because he doesn't bring much to the table. No power, moderate speed, moderate defense. So I'd rather see a Heisey/Gomes platoon in LF.

But, I'm not sold on bringing up Alonso. Being a lefty, he doesn't help with spelling either Bruce or Votto.

The one guy that might make some sense is Frazier as super sub. Can play LF, 3b, 1b. and could be emergency SS. Could spell help spell Votto or Bruce.

I'd consider losing Renteria for Frazier.

You need two guys who play a true SS.

Unassisted
07-17-2011, 07:29 PM
Can you get rid of a guy who has a bobblehead night coming up? :)I've said that all along. Gomes is out of options, so he can't go down. He can only go away. He won't be sent away before his bobblehead night.

Brutus
07-17-2011, 07:38 PM
I've said that all along. Gomes is out of options, so he can't go down. He can only go away. He won't be sent away before his bobblehead night.

He can be outrighted, though. Because he is over 5 years service, he does have the right to refuse such assignment. But if he accepts, he can be cut off the 40-man roster and sent to AAA, provided he passes through waivers. So in essence, while you're right about the options, it's still feasible to send him to the minors, provided he consents.

mth123
07-17-2011, 07:46 PM
He can be outrighted, though. Because he is over 5 years service, he does have the right to refuse such assignment. But if he accepts, he can be cut off the 40-man roster and sent to AAA, provided he passes through waivers. So in essence, while you're right about the options, it's still feasible to send him to the minors, provided he consents.

He'd never get through waivers. As much as we discount him, there are plenty of teams looking for a lefty killer. I'd guess the Braves and Phillies would both be interested.

Big Klu
07-17-2011, 07:59 PM
I've said that all along. Gomes is out of options, so he can't go down. He can only go away. He won't be sent away before his bobblehead night.

A few years ago, the Indians traded Victor Martinez a day or two before his bobblehead night.

Unassisted
07-17-2011, 08:03 PM
A few years ago, the Indians traded Victor Martinez a day or two before his bobblehead night.The Reds are um, thrifty, though. ;)

They will value the quantifiable attendance/revenue bump from the promotion more than the less-certain hitting bump from replacing Gomes with Alonso.

mth123
07-17-2011, 08:05 PM
The Reds are um, thrifty, though. ;)

They will value the quantifiable attendance/revenue bump from the promotion more than the less-certain hitting bump from replacing Gomes with Alonso.

If you really think this, I hope you voted asleep at the wheel (though under the influence at the wheel might be a better description).

Brutus
07-17-2011, 08:31 PM
He'd never get through waivers. As much as we discount him, there are plenty of teams looking for a lefty killer. I'd guess the Braves and Phillies would both be interested.

People also said there's no way the Reds could re-sign him for as cheap as they did last year when they non-tendered him. Guess what happened? He garnered very little interest on the open market and the Reds got him for $1 million.

I don't think there's much interest out there for Gomes right now.

marcshoe
07-17-2011, 08:40 PM
I'm all for the proposal in the op if we can get MLB to pass a rule allowing teams to play three leftfielders at once.

Seriously, I'm beginning to think the Reds need a quick solution at 3B.

reds44
07-17-2011, 08:41 PM
Do you guys think there would be much of a market for Jeff Baker?

Because Jeff Baker is better Jonny Gomes.

mth123
07-17-2011, 08:53 PM
Do you guys think there would be much of a market for Jeff Baker?

Because Jeff Baker is better Jonny Gomes.

I think teams would love to have Baker. Teams are looking for guys to fill roles on the cheap. With the dearth of decent options at 3B this year, I'd imagine quite a few teams would be interested in a guy who could at least address part of the problem. Peter Gammons says the Cubs won't deal him.

reds44
07-17-2011, 08:57 PM
Now imagine if Jeff Baker was hitting .217 and played bad defense. Still think he has value?

Superdude
07-17-2011, 09:07 PM
I don't know that Walt's looking to trade Alonso, but I can't see how letting him fumble around left field for a start or two a week helps his trade value or his development. Sappelt probably won't and shouldn't play before Heisey. Cozart was an obvious move, but these two are probably better off getting AB's in Louisville for now.

mth123
07-17-2011, 09:24 PM
Now imagine if Jeff Baker was hitting .217 and played bad defense. Still think he has value?

If I had a line-up full of lefty bats and teams were loading up on lefty pitchers when I play them and I can get a guy who has an OPS over 1.000 against lefties to help combat that off the waiver wire, heck yes.

mth123
07-17-2011, 09:28 PM
I don't know that Walt's looking to trade Alonso, but I can't see how letting him fumble around left field for a start or two a week helps his trade value or his development. Sappelt probably won't and shouldn't play before Heisey. Cozart was an obvious move, but these two are probably better off getting AB's in Louisville for now.

I could care less about Alonso's development. The Reds need somebody who can hit in the middle of the order against RHP and right now Alonso is the best candidate to improve that. He should be up and playing LF against all RHP and batting 5th.

If his defense is so bad to preclude that, then he needs dealt immediately. No need to have him skulking around in AAA for 2 and a half years until Votto leaves town when the Reds need help right now.

Superdude
07-17-2011, 10:05 PM
I could care less about Alonso's development. The Reds need somebody who can hit in the middle of the order against RHP and right now Alonso is the best candidate to improve that. He should be up and playing LF against all RHP and batting 5th.

If his defense is so bad to preclude that, then he needs dealt immediately. No need to have him skulking around in AAA for 2 and a half years until Votto leaves town when the Reds need help right now.

I guess it all depends on his defense. Just looking at his body type, he sounds like a train wreck in the outfield, but it would be nice seeing his bat instead of Gomes flailing at every curveball in the dirt.

cinreds21
07-17-2011, 10:16 PM
You guys are never satisfied :)

HeatherC1212
07-17-2011, 11:03 PM
You guys are never satisfied :)

You're just now learning this??! :laugh:

cinreds21
07-18-2011, 12:05 AM
You're just now learning this??! :laugh:

I guess I'm a little late on it.

Guacarock
07-18-2011, 01:40 AM
Sappelt needs more seasoning at AAA. Alonso is the one I'd be looking to call up next from the Louisville Bats' roster, but only if:

1. We're serious about giving him a tryout in LF.
2. We don't have any pending trade deadline deals in which he figures as the keystone prospect to land us a difference-making starting pitcher.

It's still premature for Sappelt, but Alonso is battle-ready. With his OPS in AAA being about 50 points higher than Cozart's this season, there's not much doubt that Alonso can contribute with his stick. The debate now is whether he can field LF adequately enough to hold down the fort.

If so, by all means, bring him up, especially if we don't have any deals in place involving him that would significantly improve the Reds elsewhere.

For a variety of reasons, I'd rather see Yonder in a Reds uniform than Ludwick or Willingham. But I certainly wouldn't go jump off a bridge if Yonder helps us land a pitcher like the Rockies' Jimenez. The next few weeks ought to be interesting and also informative.

cinreds21
07-18-2011, 02:05 AM
The only thing I don't like about bringing Alonso up is that he's a lefty. That would give three lefty power bats and only "two" in Rolen and Datdude in the heart of the order.

mdccclxix
07-18-2011, 03:16 AM
It seems to me like Alonso would be getting in the way of Heisey AB's, which at this point is counter to the direction Dusty and Walt are going. Heisey is nudging his way towards an everyday role and that's not something I see the Reds disrupting, especially if it means going backwards on defense. Frankly, I prefer tight defense all around right now in order to keep this pitching staff steady for a month or more. Before we know it, September 1 will be here and the men in Louisville will be up here to show what they've got. We'll all get to see Alonso's defense then. Giving a guy a year to learn the position is a very Jocketty/current regime type of thing to do, isn't it?

GAC
07-18-2011, 04:39 AM
The only thing I don't like about bringing Alonso up is that he's a lefty. That would give three lefty power bats and only "two" in Rolen and Datdude in the heart of the order.

Rolen is no longer a power bat. He's toast. That is one of the current problems with this team. A .240/.310/.368/.675 line from the #4 spot is totally unacceptable, one of the worst in the NL, and well below league average.

mth123
07-18-2011, 04:55 AM
The only thing I don't like about bringing Alonso up is that he's a lefty. That would give three lefty power bats and only "two" in Rolen and Datdude in the heart of the order.

Funny, I think a lefty is exactly what they need. As for power bats, against RHP, it would give us three as opposed to only two in Bruce and Votto. Rolen doesn't qualify as a power bat and he's basically a bottom of the order hitter these days. He should hit 7th and probably shoud sit more often with Cairo getting another start each week. Phillips I might give you aganst lefty pitching, but if he's in the middle of the order, you're in trouble (and he's hitting clean-up right now). Gomes would qualify against lefties, but should be firmly on the bench against RHP. This team's primary problem on offense is that they are very thin in the middle of the order against RHP. Ideally, Stubbs would strike out less and Rolen would find some magic elixer to heal his shoulder, but the shoulder is permanently damaged and, in spite of Stubbs Ks, the Reds are getting enough guys on. They just need to get them home more often.

Stubbs
Phillips
Votto
Bruce
Alonso/Gomes
Hernandez/Hanigan
Rolen
Cozart

Heisey should start 4 or 5 times per week in CF, RF and LF depending on who is dinged up, scuffling or needs rest (including Votto with Alonso at 1B) and his offensive game is versatile enough that he could hit in whichever spot in the order that the guy he's replacing hits. Dusty is right when he compares Heisey to a sixth man. He's perfect for that role and good team's have good players on the bench. Conversely, right now the Reds have Fred Lewis and Edgar Renteria.

mth123
07-18-2011, 05:03 AM
It seems to me like Alonso would be getting in the way of Heisey AB's, which at this point is counter to the direction Dusty and Walt are going. Heisey is nudging his way towards an everyday role and that's not something I see the Reds disrupting, especially if it means going backwards on defense. Frankly, I prefer tight defense all around right now in order to keep this pitching staff steady for a month or more. Before we know it, September 1 will be here and the men in Louisville will be up here to show what they've got. We'll all get to see Alonso's defense then. Giving a guy a year to learn the position is a very Jocketty/current regime type of thing to do, isn't it?

Except Alonso was playing some LF in 2010 as well. At this point, its time to get him in there or ship him off for help.

cumberlandreds
07-18-2011, 07:51 AM
If Alonso is adequate enough in LF he should be brought up. If he's not going to be brought up then Heisey should get all of the playing time in LF. I don't know about anyone else but I am sick of seeing Gomes and Lewis strike out with runners on base nearly everytime they are in that situation. It's way past time to do something for LF. Just as it was way past time to do something at SS.

Unassisted
07-18-2011, 08:40 AM
If you really think this, I hope you voted asleep at the wheel (though under the influence at the wheel might be a better description).I did, but I don't believe they're "asleep." I believe the ownership group is hoarding money in anticipation of a long lockout in 2012. That's why the cheap choice is preferred this year.

Mario-Rijo
07-18-2011, 08:49 AM
I did, but I don't believe they're "asleep." I believe the ownership group is hoarding money in anticipation of a long lockout in 2012. That's why the cheap choice is preferred this year.

Astute point!

mbgrayson
07-18-2011, 09:01 AM
It's interesting to me that after three pages of discussion, nobody has mentioned the current Louisville team leader in OPS, who also happens to play the outfield: Jeremy Hermida.

Hermida is batting .322/.409/.500 for an OPS of .909. He has 9 HRs in 291 plate appearances. He leads the International League in OPS. The LEAGUE, not just the Bats.

Hermida, at age 27, is certainly a little older than Alonso (age 24). He bats left-handed, but is actually hitting lefty pitchers a little better than righties.

At least I would think that Hermida would be a decent trading chip.

Kc61
07-18-2011, 09:30 AM
It's interesting to me that after three pages of discussion, nobody has mentioned the current Louisville team leader in OPS, who also happens to play the outfield: Jeremy Hermida.

Hermida is batting .322/.409/.500 for an OPS of .909. He has 9 HRs in 291 plate appearances. He leads the International League in OPS. The LEAGUE, not just the Bats.

Hermida, at age 27, is certainly a little older than Alonso (age 24). He bats left-handed, but is actually hitting lefty pitchers a little better than righties.

At least I would think that Hermida would be a decent trading chip.

Very good point. Hermida had a brief trial with the Reds earlier, but he really didn't get much of a shot then.

He is another alternative for the outfield mix.

Wheelhouse
07-18-2011, 10:02 AM
I have a feeling Gomes is not long for the team. Dusty put him in against a pitcher he's done well against (Garcia) and he pulled an 0-fer with 2K's. It seems nothing is working with the guy. If a couple of weeks into the 2nd half it doesn't look like a monster turnaround, he's a goner. It will shake the team, but hey, I think showing everyone that no one is beyond ejection is good. It's good to come to work a little worried about losing your job. Not too much, just a little.

Reds1
07-18-2011, 10:22 AM
I don't know about bringing those 2 up, but I am in the camp for Johnny to go. I really like him as a person and the energy he gives, but he just can't hit consistantly and really hurts the team too often. His defense is actually not too bad right now. I'm just in the play Heisey daily camp and leave the guys down in AAA.

cumberlandreds
07-18-2011, 10:31 AM
I have a feeling Gomes is not long for the team. Dusty put him in against a pitcher he's done well against (Garcia) and he pulled an 0-fer with 2K's. It seems nothing is working with the guy. If a couple of weeks into the 2nd half it doesn't look like a monster turnaround, he's a goner. It will shake the team, but hey, I think showing everyone that no one is beyond ejection is good. It's good to come to work a little worried about losing your job. Not too much, just a little.

Wouldn't surprise me a bit if Gomes name isn't on the waiver wire on July 24th. But not before that date. July 23rd is Jonny Gomes bobblehead day. Managment can't look bad by releasing him before that date. :rolleyes:

edabbs44
07-18-2011, 12:52 PM
I have a feeling Gomes is not long for the team. Dusty put him in against a pitcher he's done well against (Garcia) and he pulled an 0-fer with 2K's. It seems nothing is working with the guy. If a couple of weeks into the 2nd half it doesn't look like a monster turnaround, he's a goner. It will shake the team, but hey, I think showing everyone that no one is beyond ejection is good. It's good to come to work a little worried about losing your job. Not too much, just a little.

Gomes .257/.376/.443 since June 1 with 4 HR and 11 RBI in 85 PA.

Bruce .223/.312/.388 with 5 HR and 13 RBI in 157 PA

Stubbs .257/.340/.389 with 4 HR and 9 RBI in 163 PA

"Nothing is working"? He's doing ok, I think.

mdccclxix
07-18-2011, 01:06 PM
Wouldn't surprise me a bit if Gomes name isn't on the waiver wire on July 24th. But not before that date. July 23rd is Jonny Gomes bobblehead day. Managment can't look bad by releasing him before that date. :rolleyes:

I would be shocked if that happened. It would be out of character for this organization, which has gained a player friendly reputation. Plus, none of the alternatives for Gomes hit lefties as well as he does, so there's no point in replacing him.

mdccclxix
07-18-2011, 01:08 PM
In fact, Gomes could be back next year if they think that RH bat off the bench is key. Right now, Lewis is holding Alonso's spot, as well as Francisco's and Hermida's. Heisey is the guy 2/3 of the time and that may only increase if he starts drawing some walks while keeping that aggressiveness that's made him so valuable.

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
07-18-2011, 01:22 PM
Funny, I think a lefty is exactly what they need. As for power bats, against RHP, it would give us three as opposed to only two in Bruce and Votto. Rolen doesn't qualify as a power bat and he's basically a bottom of the order hitter these days. He should hit 7th and probably shoud sit more often with Cairo getting another start each week. Phillips I might give you aganst lefty pitching, but if he's in the middle of the order, you're in trouble (and he's hitting clean-up right now). Gomes would qualify against lefties, but should be firmly on the bench against RHP. This team's primary problem on offense is that they are very thin in the middle of the order against RHP. Ideally, Stubbs would strike out less and Rolen would find some magic elixer to heal his shoulder, but the shoulder is permanently damaged and, in spite of Stubbs Ks, the Reds are getting enough guys on. They just need to get them home more often.

Stubbs
Phillips
Votto
Bruce
Alonso/Gomes
Hernandez/Hanigan
Rolen
Cozart

Heisey should start 4 or 5 times per week in CF, RF and LF depending on who is dinged up, scuffling or needs rest (including Votto with Alonso at 1B) and his offensive game is versatile enough that he could hit in whichever spot in the order that the guy he's replacing hits. Dusty is right when he compares Heisey to a sixth man. He's perfect for that role and good team's have good players on the bench. Conversely, right now the Reds have Fred Lewis and Edgar Renteria.
Cozart needs to hit in the two hole, he's a shortstop.

cumberlandreds
07-18-2011, 01:30 PM
I would be shocked if that happened. It would be out of character for this organization, which has gained a player friendly reputation. Plus, none of the alternatives for Gomes hit lefties as well as he does, so there's no point in replacing him.

I was really just kidding. I should have used the winky sign. Gomes is probably here for the long run. He's good in the clubhouse at least.

mth123
07-18-2011, 11:22 PM
For me the move is clear. The Reds platoon splits as a team:

.710 OPS vs RHP .830 OPS vs LHP. The place to improve that is with a LH bat to platoon with Gomes. Lewis with an overall OPS of .696 and only .736 vs RH is not the answer. Gomes is doing his job versus lefties with an OPS over 1.000.

Lewis offers little else to the team other than as a LH bat against RHP. He's the worst defensive OF that the team has had since Griffey left town (including Gomes), he's 0 for 4 in SB attempts, he's not a power threat for late in the game and generally is just taking up space on the roster. Time to cut Lewis loose and try a different LH half. Alonso would be my choice, but if he's just not viable, then Hermida gets another look. Either way, time for Mr. Lewis time in Cincy to end.

reds44
07-18-2011, 11:26 PM
For me the move is clear. The Reds platoon splits as a team:

.710 OPS vs RHP .830 OPS vs LHP. The place to improve that is with a LH bat to platoon with Gomes. Lewis with an overall OPS of .696 and only .736 vs RH is not the answer. Gomes is doing his job versus lefties with an OPS over 1.000.

Lewis offers little else to the team other than as a LH bat against RHP. He's the worst defensive OF that the team has had since Griffey left town (including Gomes), he's 0 for 4 in SB attempts, he's not a power threat for late in the game and generally is just taking up space on the roster. Time to cut Lewis loose and try a different LH half. Alonso would be my choice, but if he's just not viable, then Hermida gets another look. Either way, time for Mr. Lewis time in Cincy to end.
I know of a left fielder in New York with a .940 OPS against right handed pitching!

reds44
07-18-2011, 11:27 PM
Btw Jeremy Hermida is not the answer to any question other than who is a prime example of a AAA player?

And Fred Lewis is probably the most average player I've ever seen ever. Dude just does everything average. He's so average it annoys me.

mth123
07-18-2011, 11:42 PM
Btw Jeremy Hermida is not the answer to any question other than who is a prime example of a AAA player?

And Fred Lewis is probably the most average player I've ever seen ever. Dude just does everything average. He's so average it annoys me.

Your idea of Average defense needs to be recalibrated. He turns outs into singles more than any OF I've seen here except Griffey. That includes Adam Dunn and Jonny Gomes.

As for Hermida, I'm skeptical myself and prefer Alonso. But I wonder if the Reds will ever really use him out there.

I'd love Beltran, but I'm guessing some other team will get him with more of a willingness to take on more of the money than the Reds can do. Some team will offer a decent prospect and paying the bills and the Mets will jump on it. I'm guessing Detroit or the Angels.

Kc61
07-19-2011, 12:05 AM
Your idea of Average defense needs to be recalibrated. He turns outs into singles more than any OF I've seen here except Griffey. That includes Adam Dunn and Jonny Gomes.

As for Hermida, I'm skeptical myself and prefer Alonso. But I wonder if the Reds will ever really use him out there.

I'd love Beltran, but I'm guessing some other team will get him with more of a willingness to take on more of the money than the Reds can do. Some team will offer a decent prospect and paying the bills and the Mets will jump on it. I'm guessing Detroit or the Angels.

Beltran is a rental, for this year only. Reds do not need rentals. They need to look beyond 2011.

HokieRed
07-19-2011, 12:07 AM
I see absolutely no reason not to bring up Alonso at this point, no matter how bad he is in LF. Should he be kept down so that Fred Lewis can play? That, as I see it, should be the question.

mth123
07-19-2011, 12:11 AM
I see absolutely no reason not to bring up Alonso at this point, no matter how bad he is in LF. Should he be kept down so that Fred Lewis can play? That, as I see it, should be the question.

Agreed. He's not going to play 1B, so stick him out there or deal him. He's a wasted resource in AAA and Lewis adds nothing to the team.

mth123
07-19-2011, 12:13 AM
Beltran is a rental, for this year only. Reds do not need rentals. They need to look beyond 2011.

Nothing wrong with rentals as long as nothing from the core is dealt to get them. I'd package something along the lines of Sappelt, Valaika and Jordan Smith for him with the Mets picking up half of his salary, but I'd guess the Mets could do better.

757690
07-19-2011, 12:19 AM
Nothing wrong with rentals as long as nothing from the core is dealt to get them. I'd package something along the lines of Sappelt, Valaika and Jordan Smith for him with the Mets picking up half of his salary, but I'd guess the Mets could do better.

Mets have made it clear that they will pick up his entire salary if it means a better prospect in return. however, the Reds have not been linked to him in rumors yet, while other team's have.

If the Reds want Beltran, they can easily outbid any other team. But it doesn't look like they want him. Looks like they are focused in Jimenez.

And the Reds can and will take on any salary they want if they think it will get them to the playoffs, imo. If they were willing to add Lee last year, they can add on anyone this year, in which they have even more money to spend.

mth123
07-19-2011, 12:26 AM
Mets have made it clear that they will pick up his entire salary if it means a better prospect in return. however, the Reds have not been linked to him in rumors yet, while other team's have.

If the Reds want Beltran, they can easily outbid any other team. But it doesn't look like they want him. Looks like they are focused in Jimenez.

And the Reds can and will take on any salary they want if they think it will get them to the playoffs, imo. If they were willing to add Lee last year, they can add on anyone this year, in which they have even more money to spend.

Lee made $9 Million in 2010 and taking him on represented only a $3 Million investment at the deadline (and still would have represented a smaller overall payroll than what they've already committed to in 2011).

Beltran makes $19 Million and would require the Reds taking on $6 Million plus at this point. I don't see them adding that much. The Reds have already bumped the payroll $5 Million from last year, not sure how much more they'll go.

As for the Mets picking up the whole salary, I don't think I'd deal what it would take. I'm guessing that they would want Leake for that or maybe Stubbs.

Kc61
07-19-2011, 08:47 AM
Nothing wrong with rentals as long as nothing from the core is dealt to get them. I'd package something along the lines of Sappelt, Valaika and Jordan Smith for him with the Mets picking up half of his salary, but I'd guess the Mets could do better.

Mets could do better. Reds are below .500 in fourth place. This year is a long shot.

No rentals.

Mario-Rijo
07-19-2011, 10:23 AM
I see absolutely no reason not to bring up Alonso at this point, no matter how bad he is in LF. Should he be kept down so that Fred Lewis can play? That, as I see it, should be the question.

I do, he can't cut the mustard. That long swing will keep him form contributing anything until it's fixed. Maybe in September he'll get to lick the jar though.

reds44
07-19-2011, 01:25 PM
Mets could do better. Reds are below .500 in fourth place. This year is a long shot.

No rentals.
Reds are 4 games out of first.

cinreds21
07-19-2011, 01:40 PM
Yea, everyone is freaking out WAYYYY too soon. It's four games on July 19. Seriously chill out. There's plenty of games left.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-19-2011, 01:44 PM
Agreed. He's not going to play 1B, so stick him out there or deal him. He's a wasted resource in AAA and Lewis adds nothing to the team.


Yep. Fred Lewis makes me sleepy.

Kc61
07-19-2011, 02:44 PM
Reds are 4 games out of first.

Reds have three teams, playing well, in front of them.

It's not like 4 games out vs. one team.

It's hard to jump three teams in the standings.

This season is a long shot. IMO, no rentals. Unless they acquire somebody for virtually nothing, I don't care about that.

reds44
07-19-2011, 03:15 PM
The Pirates will be the Pirates and the Brewers are -15 in run differential right now and they can't win on the road.

All it takes is one hot streak.

And unless the Reds are trying to deal him (which they probably are), I'd bring up Alonso too.

mth123
07-20-2011, 02:27 AM
The Reds OPS against RHP is down to .705. That is 18th in the majors and 9th in the NL. Considering the backdrop of playing in GABP and the NL Central it may as well be last. All the NL teams trailing the Reds are in pitching oriented parks except for the hapless Astros. It has been painfully obvious for a long time that this team was very splitty with its main RH threats (Phillips, Gomes and Rolen) either handicapped by injury or had the Superman versus lefties and Lois Lane versus righties thing going on.

Fred Lewis has some limited uses as a fringe player who can be passbale versus RHP, but if there is only one available upgrade against RHP to help supplement a line-up loaded with splitty lefty killers, it needs to be more than an upgrade from awful to passable. The Reds need a guy who hits righties the way Gomes hits lefties and right now Alonso looks like the best guy for that job. After back to back shutouts against a couple of decent but not top of the line righties, this team needs to make the move now. When the Reds return home, Alonso needs to be on the roster and playing in LF and hitting fifth against all RHP. I'd keep Gomes to switch him out against LHP and cut loose fringey Freddie to make room.

Walt didn't address this all winter when it became obvious in the second half of 2010 (and there was ample reason to suspect after 2009 but it was covered by Rolen's big first half of 2010). He drug his feet on making the switch from Gary Green Jr. to Cozart. Now, he has waited far too long to get around to utilizing his high caliber minor league lefty on a team that is desperate for a guy who can hit aganst RHP. Couple that with his questionable idea of going into the season with so many question marks in the rotation and his ill advised extension of Arroyo to create budget space and then using that budget on the likes of Edgar Renteria and Fred Lewis and I just can't see how anyone can say that the number one problem on this team is anything other than its GM. IMO, Walt needs to make a move or Cast does.

membengal
07-20-2011, 06:28 AM
mth, you have been breathing deeply in the zone for months now.

Great post.

edabbs44
07-20-2011, 07:01 AM
Mth, I agree that Alonso getting the call may not have any negative repercussions but do you really think that he is going to be the one to take this lineup to where it needs to be?

Maybe he will be an upgrade, but enough to truly make a difference? Enough to raise our blood pressure and call for the GM's head?

cumberlandreds
07-20-2011, 08:07 AM
Mth, I agree that Alonso getting the call may not have any negative repercussions but do you really think that he is going to be the one to take this lineup to where it needs to be?

Maybe he will be an upgrade, but enough to truly make a difference? Enough to raise our blood pressure and call for the GM's head?

He's worth a shot to what he can do. What do the Reds have to lose at this point. It's highly unlikely they are getting back in this race and its time to bring up some of the young guys that have been raking down in AAA most of the season. You have absolutely nothing to lose by doing this or stepping up attempts to trade them for MLB ready players. Either way is a risk but one you have to make NOW.

Cedric
07-20-2011, 08:15 AM
The Pirates will be the Pirates and the Brewers are -15 in run differential right now and they can't win on the road.

All it takes is one hot streak.

And unless the Reds are trying to deal him (which they probably are), I'd bring up Alonso too.

Very hard to get on a hot streak when you can't even win 2 games in a row for over a month.

I think it's time to face that this team is just way too inconsistent to really worry about this year.

CySeymour
07-20-2011, 10:09 AM
Very hard to get on a hot streak when you can't even win 2 games in a row for over a month.

I think it's time to face that this team is just way too inconsistent to really worry about this year.

I am starting to get this thought, too. So with that, wouldn't it be wiser to hold on to their top trading chips until they can find a player that would be with the team past a half season instead of just a 2 month rental?

mth123
07-20-2011, 07:08 PM
Mth, I agree that Alonso getting the call may not have any negative repercussions but do you really think that he is going to be the one to take this lineup to where it needs to be?

Maybe he will be an upgrade, but enough to truly make a difference? Enough to raise our blood pressure and call for the GM's head?

Its not about Alonso transforming the line-up and to do so he'd need to hit against RHP the way Gomes hits leftys. Its possible, but any improvement would help when losing so many close games, a few hits here and there could swing that record a bit. When this team faces a RHP it obvious the plan is to pitch around Votto and pitch carefully to Bruce. The rest of the line-up is just not a threat. Giving them somebody else to worry about would have a ripple effect beyond Alonso's numbers.

That said, its more about time being up. These issues aren't new and were easy to see coming. Its time to actually do something besides frittering away time. They frittered away the 09 off-season, then frittered away the deadline last year. They frittered away the winter meetings and now we're fooling around with Fred Lewis while the season slips away. The offensive explosion where the Reds scored 3 whole runs today doesn't change anything. There is an obvious move, make it or let somebody else take over who will do something.

Kc61
07-24-2011, 01:26 PM
The Reds' mediocre numbers against RHP cries out for the promotion of Alonso, now or immediately after the deadline - if he's still with the organization.

The Reds only have three lefty bats. They can trade off a guy like, say, Gomes, to open a spot for another lefty bat.

Alonso is ready, he's hitting, he's lefty. Put him on the 25-man roster. Use him in LF occasionally, let him pinch hit, maybe rest Votto once in awhile.

Alonso helps fill a void on the roster. He is ready. A promotion is necessary.

reds44
07-24-2011, 01:32 PM
Mth, I agree that Alonso getting the call may not have any negative repercussions but do you really think that he is going to be the one to take this lineup to where it needs to be?

Maybe he will be an upgrade, but enough to truly make a difference? Enough to raise our blood pressure and call for the GM's head?
That was the same argument against Cozart, though. If you know you can improve the team, why not do it?

I don't think you'll see Alonso until after the dead line, though.

mth123
07-24-2011, 07:27 PM
The Reds' mediocre numbers against RHP cries out for the promotion of Alonso, now or immediately after the deadline - if he's still with the organization.

The Reds only have three lefty bats. They can trade off a guy like, say, Gomes, to open a spot for another lefty bat.

Alonso is ready, he's hitting, he's lefty. Put him on the 25-man roster. Use him in LF occasionally, let him pinch hit, maybe rest Votto once in awhile.

Alonso helps fill a void on the roster. He is ready. A promotion is necessary.

Glad your on the bandwagon KC. See post 74 in this thread.

edabbs44
07-24-2011, 07:35 PM
That was the same argument against Cozart, though. If you know you can improve the team, why not do it?

I don't think you'll see Alonso until after the dead line, though.

It's not an argument against making a move, it's about spending countless posts and energy complaining and whining about secondary and tertiary players when the true improvement needs to come from within.

Mario-Rijo
07-24-2011, 07:42 PM
The Reds' mediocre numbers against RHP cries out for the promotion of Alonso, now or immediately after the deadline - if he's still with the organization.

The Reds only have three lefty bats. They can trade off a guy like, say, Gomes, to open a spot for another lefty bat.

Alonso is ready, he's hitting, he's lefty. Put him on the 25-man roster. Use him in LF occasionally, let him pinch hit, maybe rest Votto once in awhile.

Alonso helps fill a void on the roster. He is ready. A promotion is necessary.

He is? So he has shortened up that long "takes all day" to get around swing? I don't think he has, it didn't look like it to me just a few short weeks ago in the Futures game. If you can't get around on a fastball in a non fastball count what chance does he really have of doing anything productive? I'd rather see Dorn at this point.

And also if there is any answer down there it'll be Dave Sappelt. I can't see anyone else really making much of a splash aside from possibly Mes who wouldn't really get to play.

signalhome
07-24-2011, 08:06 PM
It's not an argument against making a move, it's about spending countless posts and energy complaining and whining about secondary and tertiary players when the true improvement needs to come from within.

There is plenty of room for the players on the roster to improve, sure. Even Votto, the best player on the team, is not producing to his full potential. However, just because the guys already on the squad have room to improve doesn't mean that Walt shouldn't explore other options to improve the team. Any improvement is good improvement.

I honestly don't know if Alonso is the answer to the Reds' woes against RHP, but it's something that's certainly worth discussing, and I would hardly consider the posts that have been made so far to be whiny in nature.

reds44
07-24-2011, 08:08 PM
It's not an argument against making a move, it's about spending countless posts and energy complaining and whining about secondary and tertiary players when the true improvement needs to come from within.
I don't think it's unnecessary when you consider how obvious the Cozart move was. The Alonso one isn't quite as obvious, but it's getting there.

edabbs44
07-24-2011, 08:40 PM
I don't think it's unnecessary when you consider how obvious the Cozart move was. The Alonso one isn't quite as obvious, but it's getting there.

Until the bigger bats start hitting to their potential, the LF and SS situations mean close to nothing.

edabbs44
07-24-2011, 08:42 PM
There is plenty of room for the players on the roster to improve, sure. Even Votto, the best player on the team, is not producing to his full potential. However, just because the guys already on the squad have room to improve doesn't mean that Walt shouldn't explore other options to improve the team. Any improvement is good improvement.

I honestly don't know if Alonso is the answer to the Reds' woes against RHP, but it's something that's certainly worth discussing, and I would hardly consider the posts that have been made so far to be whiny in nature.

Not just in this thread. This offense will live and die by Votto, Phillips, Bruce, Stubbs and Rolen. What C, SS and LF gives them is supplementary. Sure it will help, but if the other names do not get it together, it likely won't mean much.

signalhome
07-24-2011, 09:51 PM
Not just in this thread. This offense will live and die by Votto, Phillips, Bruce, Stubbs and Rolen. What C, SS and LF gives them is supplementary. Sure it will help, but if the other names do not get it together, it likely won't mean much.

Fair enough; I guess we just have a different way of looking at it. If my top-tier players weren't performing up to expectations (like the Reds this year), I'd be working even harder to make sure I was getting the most I possibly could out of every other position. If those guys aren't producing, every move I make (or don't make) becomes much more important, as I have much less room for error.

mth123
07-24-2011, 11:17 PM
Not just in this thread. This offense will live and die by Votto, Phillips, Bruce, Stubbs and Rolen. What C, SS and LF gives them is supplementary. Sure it will help, but if the other names do not get it together, it likely won't mean much.

The best way to get Bruce and Votto going is to give the opposing pitcher something else to worry about. Votto is being pitched around and they are being very careful with Bruce. Those other guys fall in with the C, SS and LF. A bat in LF would change the dynamic.If Alonso and Gomes could combine to OPS in he .900 range, Votto and Bruce would soar IMO.

HotCorner
07-24-2011, 11:33 PM
The best way to get Bruce and Votto going is to give the opposing pitcher something else to worry about. Votto is being pitched around and they are being very careful with Bruce. Those other guys fall in with the C, SS and LF. A bat in LF would change the dynamic.If Alonso and Gomes could combine to OPS in he .900 range, Votto and Bruce would soar IMO.

Thy name is Carlos Beltran. ;)

mth123
07-24-2011, 11:38 PM
Thy name is Carlos Beltran. ;)

I'm for it, but doubt the Reds take on the salary or part with enough to get the Mets to do it.

Doing it on the cheap probably means platoon. The Reds already have the lefty killer in Gomes. IMO Alosno is the most likely guy to provide the other side at the level of production needed. It may not work, but its probably the best shot we've got.

11larkin11
07-24-2011, 11:49 PM
After watching a series of Brian McCann, I want Mesoraco up now.

edabbs44
07-25-2011, 06:18 AM
Fair enough; I guess we just have a different way of looking at it. If my top-tier players weren't performing up to expectations (like the Reds this year), I'd be working even harder to make sure I was getting the most I possibly could out of every other position. If those guys aren't producing, every move I make (or don't make) becomes much more important, as I have much less room for error.

Obviously, but it is more about the reaction of some on RZ and not what the FO is doing. We can talk about SS and LF all we want, but bottom line is that the expectations were low to begin with. Which was already factored in.

edabbs44
07-25-2011, 06:19 AM
The best way to get Bruce and Votto going is to give the opposing pitcher something else to worry about. Votto is being pitched around and they are being very careful with Bruce. Those other guys fall in with the C, SS and LF. A bat in LF would change the dynamic.If Alonso and Gomes could combine to OPS in he .900 range, Votto and Bruce would soar IMO.

Right. These guys only seem to be pitched around when they aren't performing to expectations.

mth123
07-25-2011, 06:43 AM
Right. These guys only seem to be pitched around when they aren't performing to expectations.

Nope. Votto is being pitched around all the time and probably still will be. Bruce is a cut below and gets himself out by trying to do too much and chases pitches or tries to pull stuff he shouldn't (and pitchers know it). Pitchers don't care if they walk Votto because they aren't worried about anyone else in the line-up beating them. Once in a while Phillips or Stubbs will hit a walk-off HR, but usually it holds the Reds to 3 runs or less. This team needs another threat. Its too easy for the opposing pitcher to work around Votto and carve up everybody else (at least when the opposing pitcher is Right Handed). And when Bruce and Votto start pressing because they feel the need to do it on their own, the whole line-up goes south. Maybe that's why both Bruce and Votto are better against lefty pitching than they are righty pitching. Lefty pitchers have a lot to worry about in the Reds line-up and Bruce and Votto don't press as much.

This is a team that has Brandon Phillips hitting clean-up and previously had a one armed man named Scott Rolen hitting there. How can anyone even question that the middle of the order needs strengthening? Don't think an Alonso/Gomes platoon is the answer? OK I'm not really convinced myself. There isn't any other option on the 40 man roster that has a chance to work though. Maybe next year Mesorco can be that guy, but IMO he won't be in that role as a rookie and its probably 2013 or 2014 before he settles in (if he can make the jump and hit like he has as a minor leaguer). By then Votto will be gone and goodbye chance to win.

Kc61
07-25-2011, 04:33 PM
Glad your on the bandwagon KC. See post 74 in this thread.

Yes. I like the Superman/Lois Lane analogy.

I would keep Lewis as a backup, though. Reds need to add lefty bats, not replace them. I think Lewis and Heisey is a decent set of backup outfielders.

TRF
07-25-2011, 04:52 PM
I'd trade Alonso for Hunter Pence yesterday just for the fact that he goes socks high. and that .850 OPS against RH pitching doesn't hurt

signalhome
07-25-2011, 05:25 PM
Nope. Votto is being pitched around all the time and probably still will be. Bruce is a cut below and gets himself out by trying to do too much and chases pitches or tries to pull stuff he shouldn't (and pitchers know it). Pitchers don't care if they walk Votto because they aren't worried about anyone else in the line-up beating them. Once in a while Phillips or Stubbs will hit a walk-off HR, but usually it holds the Reds to 3 runs or less. This team needs another threat. Its too easy for the opposing pitcher to work around Votto and carve up everybody else (at least when the opposing pitcher is Right Handed). And when Bruce and Votto start pressing because they feel the need to do it on their own, the whole line-up goes south. Maybe that's why both Bruce and Votto are better against lefty pitching than they are righty pitching. Lefty pitchers have a lot to worry about in the Reds line-up and Bruce and Votto don't press as much.

This is a team that has Brandon Phillips hitting clean-up and previously had a one armed man named Scott Rolen hitting there. How can anyone even question that the middle of the order needs strengthening? Don't think an Alonso/Gomes platoon is the answer? OK I'm not really convinced myself. There isn't any other option on the 40 man roster that has a chance to work though. Maybe next year Mesorco can be that guy, but IMO he won't be in that role as a rookie and its probably 2013 or 2014 before he settles in (if he can make the jump and hit like he has as a minor leaguer). By then Votto will be gone and goodbye chance to win.

Yeah, that's becoming a trend with Bruce that I'm not fond of. His O-Swing% has increased each of the past two years.

2009: 26.1%
2010: 29.3%
2011: 31.0%

He needs to remain patient at the plate and stop swinging at pitches out of the zone. I know he's already sporting a double-digit BB%, but I believe that number could be much higher if he would start exhibiting that 2009 plate discipline. Like you said, maybe he's just pressing. I don't know.

Unrelated to everything being talked about, but I just saw this and found it amazing: Votto is hitting line drives at a 28.1% rate so far this year. Needless to say, that's #1 in MLB.

mth123
07-25-2011, 05:44 PM
Yes. I like the Superman/Lois Lane analogy.

I would keep Lewis as a backup, though. Reds need to add lefty bats, not replace them. I think Lewis and Heisey is a decent set of backup outfielders.

I think Heisey needs to play CF against RHP while Stubbs plays against lefties. Alonso/Gomes platooning in LF with Votto, Bruce, Phillps and the catchers and maybe they can have a decent offense day in and day out. I'd like to keep Lewis because he's lefty, but he's the least important position player right now, is a worse defender than anyone on the roster (including Jonny Gomes) and doesn't really do much on the bases anymore. He does get on base against RHP and I'd like a lefty bat on the bench. Perhaps they should go to 11 pitchers until August 1.

Kc61
07-26-2011, 08:44 PM
Good move today, Walt.

Mario-Rijo
07-26-2011, 08:56 PM
Yeah, that's becoming a trend with Bruce that I'm not fond of. His O-Swing% has increased each of the past two years.

2009: 26.1%
2010: 29.3%
2011: 31.0%

He needs to remain patient at the plate and stop swinging at pitches out of the zone. I know he's already sporting a double-digit BB%, but I believe that number could be much higher if he would start exhibiting that 2009 plate discipline. Like you said, maybe he's just pressing. I don't know.

Unrelated to everything being talked about, but I just saw this and found it amazing: Votto is hitting line drives at a 28.1% rate so far this year. Needless to say, that's #1 in MLB.

Jay is always pressing except when he ain't and that is usually when he is killing the ball.

Outstanding stat on Joey there, nice find.