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reds44
07-18-2011, 07:12 PM
http://espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/story/_/id/6781630/new-york-mets-pay-rest-carlos-beltran-salary-source-says?campaign=rss&source=MLBHeadlines



NEW YORK -- There are no shortage of suitors for Carlos Beltran as the trade deadline approaches. And the New York Mets are demanding top-notch young talent in return for the outfielder because they are willing to cover his remaining salary, according to a major league source.

"From what I gather, they are asking a lot for him because they are willing to pick up all of his salary," the source told ESPNNewYork.com.


So my question to you is, do you give up Travis Wood for Carlos Beltran?

Me thinks this will be an overwhelming no, but I'm interested to hear your thoughts.

savafan
07-18-2011, 07:19 PM
http://espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/story/_/id/6781630/new-york-mets-pay-rest-carlos-beltran-salary-source-says?campaign=rss&source=MLBHeadlines



So my question to you is, do you give up Travis Wood for Carlos Beltran?

Me thinks this will be an overwhelming no, but I'm interested to hear your thoughts.

It's almost like asking if you would have traded Curt Schilling for Glenn Davis...

BearcatShane
07-18-2011, 07:34 PM
Travis Wood? Id go a lot more than that..

PuffyPig
07-18-2011, 07:45 PM
A platoon of Heisey and Gomes would likely be just as productive.

Now, convincing Dusty to utilize them that way.....

757690
07-18-2011, 07:51 PM
http://espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/story/_/id/6781630/new-york-mets-pay-rest-carlos-beltran-salary-source-says?campaign=rss&source=MLBHeadlines



So my question to you is, do you give up Travis Wood for Carlos Beltran?

Me thinks this will be an overwhelming no, but I'm interested to hear your thoughts.

No one knows for sure, but my guess is that it would only take someone like Frazier or Francisco to get Beltran, if the Mets pick up his salary. They basically just want a player who actually will play in the majors. Wood would be a huge overpay, imo.

edabbs44
07-18-2011, 07:59 PM
Did Wood change his name to free?

And my guess is that it will take more than Travis.

Blitz Dorsey
07-18-2011, 08:02 PM
No, Wood would be too much. But it's not an absurd thought by any means. The thing is, how much better is Carlos Beltran than Chris Heisey at this stage of his career? (Or, more specifically, the platoon of Heisey/Gomes.) Beltran is having a good year, but he was an afterthought coming into the season. He's 34 I believe and is injury prone.

So, the Reds would be foolish IMO to part ways with a young lefty like Travis Wood. He still has a lot of potential and I'm not going to change my mind on that based just upon a few rough starts this year. The kid is very young (24) and has the makings of a solid #3 or #4 starter at the MLB level. However, I would be willing to give up someone like Frazier for Beltran. Or maybe Frazier + another minor leaguer.

In a related story, thank goodness we're not in the NL East.

Blitz Dorsey
07-18-2011, 08:06 PM
Did Wood change his name to free?

And my guess is that it will take more than Travis.

Really? For an aging Beltran that a team would be getting as a rental? This wouldn't exactly be the same player the Astros got during their WS run a few years ago. Perhaps because the Mets are willing to pay ALL of Beltran's contract, they will be able to get a top prospect in return. However, I say good luck getting a better return than Travis Wood. Funny how perception of a player can change in a few short months. I say the Reds would regret it for years if they traded a 24-year-old Wood for a 34-year-old Beltran. I'm also going to be surprised if the Mets get anything as good or better than Wood for Beltran.

[And then the Mets will release a press statement saying this is not a sign of giving up. They're just simply trading good players because they think it will help them get back in the wildcard race.]

reds44
07-18-2011, 08:08 PM
Beltran has an OPS just shy of .900 this year and has a .944 OPS against RHP. Dude would be the second best offensive player on the team. I love Heisey as much as the next guy, but he's a huge upgrade.

His age doesn't matter because he a rental, it's not like he's a long term solution. You also keep Heisey (and Gomes for the matter).

Oh, there's also no way the Mets turn that down.

reds44
07-18-2011, 08:09 PM
Did Wood change his name to free?

And my guess is that it will take more than Travis.
I meant money free.

edabbs44
07-18-2011, 09:31 PM
Really? For an aging Beltran that a team would be getting as a rental? This wouldn't exactly be the same player the Astros got during their WS run a few years ago. Perhaps because the Mets are willing to pay ALL of Beltran's contract, they will be able to get a top prospect in return. However, I say good luck getting a better return than Travis Wood. Funny how perception of a player can change in a few short months. I say the Reds would regret it for years if they traded a 24-year-old Wood for a 34-year-old Beltran. I'm also going to be surprised if the Mets get anything as good or better than Wood for Beltran.

[And then the Mets will release a press statement saying this is not a sign of giving up. They're just simply trading good players because they think it will help them get back in the wildcard race.]

I think that same perception might be different outside of RZ, with or without those months.

edabbs44
07-18-2011, 09:32 PM
Beltran has an OPS just shy of .900 this year and has a .944 OPS against RHP. Dude would be the second best offensive player on the team. I love Heisey as much as the next guy, but he's a huge upgrade.

His age doesn't matter because he a rental, it's not like he's a long term solution. You also keep Heisey (and Gomes for the matter).

Oh, there's also no way the Mets turn that down.

I think you'll need more than TWood.

reds44
07-18-2011, 10:34 PM
I think Wood would be a perfect offer.

Patrick Bateman
07-18-2011, 10:39 PM
I think Wood would be a perfect offer.

I don't personally think Wood is very good.

Back in the days where pitching was difficult to develop, Wood would be a major success story. Right now, pitchers of his ilk are relatively easy to come by. He's a back of the rotation guy at best if he continues to develop. I think they can get more... If I'm the Reds I probably wouldn't pay for a whole lot more, because I'm not so sure the price to upgrade LF is worth it for the current team.

I'd rather look at pitching upgrades, more for the long term benefit of the team rather than a one year fix in a year where we have a 10% chance at playoffs.

RedsManRick
07-18-2011, 11:28 PM
I'd love to give up Francisco for him

Spitball
07-18-2011, 11:55 PM
No way would I trade Wood for a rental of Beltran. Even if Wood never develops beyond a 4-5 starter (and I think he will be a 2-3), I would not trade him for an outfield rental. No way.

If the Reds get Beltran, they may win the NL Central this year. I have a hard time believing they have the pitching to go beyond the first round. After Cueto and Leake, the Reds will need Wood in the future to build a rotation.

edabbs44
07-18-2011, 11:58 PM
I'd love to give up Francisco for him

And who else?

reds44
07-19-2011, 12:31 AM
No way would I trade Wood for a rental of Beltran. Even if Wood never develops beyond a 4-5 starter (and I think he will be a 2-3), I would not trade him for an outfield rental. No way.

If the Reds get Beltran, they may win the NL Central this year. I have a hard time believing they have the pitching to go beyond the first round. After Cueto and Leake, the Reds will need Wood in the future to build a rotation.
What if you get Ubaldo too?

mdccclxix
07-19-2011, 02:24 AM
Overall, pitching has been the problem, and I don't think Willis has earned the trust to be the needed fix, but with Rolen having a tough year, I'd almost rather shut him down (so maybe he can have a strong September/October or even 2012) and aquire Beltran. This team does need another great hitter, if for no other reason than we know Bailey will have tough days, Cueto will slide back a bit, Leake is often on the razors edge, Arroyo is dealing with a tough condition, and Willis/Wood/Volquez are still wildcards. Beltran in the cleanup spot would be our best chance at that awesome 20 game run of 17-3 or some such.

Stubbs
Phillips
Votto
Beltran
Bruce
Rolen/Cairo/Frazier
Cozart
Hernanigan

Walt may see Rolen going on the DL as a chance to waive the white flag, and I perhaps could agree. But rolling the dice with Beltran could really spark this team.

I think, for now, the pitching is stabelizing with Cueto, Bailey, Leake and a bounce back Willis.

Unfortunately, Beltran is needed now and all parties will likely want to see what the scope looks like in 2 weeks.

MikeS21
07-19-2011, 08:52 AM
Offer them Sappelt and see if they bite. Or Maloney (when he comes off DL).

Kc61
07-19-2011, 09:50 AM
Spend your time, money and prospects on players under control for awhile.

No rentals for this year.

Reds are a losing team this year. Trade for next year.

HokieRed
07-19-2011, 10:02 AM
Spend your time, money and prospects on players under control for awhile.

No rentals for this year.

Reds are a losing team this year. Trade for next year.

Agree here, though I think most of our prospects are actually a lot better than what we're going to get or some of what we have--which means I'd be extremely reluctant to trade. I'm sure we will make a trade, however, because Walt is going to need to create the illusion that we are still in the hunt and active. I just hope it doesn't do too much damage. But I'd like to see us get really better by 2012 and so here's my lineup:
1. Reyes (SS)
2. Cozart (2B)
3. Votto (LF)
4. Bruce (RF)
5. Mesoraco (C)
6. Alonso (1B)
7. A healthy third baseman, Rolen or Frazier
8. Stubbs or Sappelt (CF)

Reserves: Hanigan (C), Heisey, Sappelt, the other 3b, Janish--could use some tweaking here to get another left handed hitter.
Starters: Cueto, Bailey, Chapman, Leake, Arroyo
Pen: LeCure, Ondrusek, Bray, Masset, and 3 from the rest of the cast, no Coco

OldXOhio
07-19-2011, 10:08 AM
A platoon of Heisey and Gomes would likely be just as productive.



As productive as .287/.381/.512? We wouldn't even be having a LF conversation if that were the case.

REDREAD
07-19-2011, 10:27 AM
I don't think I would give up Wood for Beltran.

Wood has had his problems this year, but my.. he has really fallen in the opinion of this board. It reminds me a lot of how Leake's stock plummeted on this board last year.

Is Wood going to be an ace pitcher? probably not. However, even with his struggles this year, he was able to give us a QS 10 of 17 times.

He's only 24.. He's got time to grow, but we need to be patient.
I'm not saying Wood is untouchable, but I would not toss him in a trade for a rental like Beltran.

If they willl take our usual fodder of a guy like Frasier, Francisco, etc. , then let's do it. Wood is too much to give up, especially with Arroyo struggling with health issues this year and Volquez being useless.

Mario-Rijo
07-19-2011, 11:02 AM
If they are gonna cover all his salary you can bet Walt will be at least considering it very strongly. As well he should..here's a deal I could see Walt making.

Reds get Beltran & Cash

Mets get Edinson Volquez

Walt cannot help but to give up more than he should. If it were me I'd give 'em Maloney, Valaika & Francisco as long as they took Gomes.

corkedbat
07-19-2011, 01:21 PM
I agree with most. no rentals this year. Now that doesn't mean that I there are nocircumstance where I would take Beltran, but probably none the Mets would agree too.

I'd want the Mets to may the bulk of the remaing salary and accept only a B prospect or two - no top drawer talent and I'd say Beltran would not be headed out way under such a deal.

I'd love to have Reyes if all there was a decent chance he could be extended, but I don't think there is, so I'd pass. Even as much as I like him, considering the team's current status, I wouldn't offer a mes or Grandal for him.

Right now, if I'm gonna offer a top trading piece(s) I want someone with more than a couple of months control. Someone who makes the team better now and in the future (next year at least).

corkedbat
07-19-2011, 01:28 PM
If they are gonna cover all his salary you can bet Walt will be at least considering it very strongly. As well he should..here's a deal I could see Walt making.

Reds get Beltran & Cash

Mets get Edinson Volquez

Walt cannot help but to give up more than he should. If it were me I'd give 'em Maloney, Valaika & Francisco as long as they took Gomes.

Oh, I do porspects on the level of Maloney, Valaika & Francisco for a rental, but no one of more value. To me JF has no value to any NL team unless they can afford to develop him as a 1B and even then his pitch selection limits that value quite a bit.

If I were an AL team though, I might take a flyer on Juan as a future 1B/DH as part of a wider package, Maybe Oakland for Willingham?

mdccclxix
07-19-2011, 01:33 PM
Beltran is the middle of the order RH bat this team has needed for over a year. Go get him, please.

reds44
07-19-2011, 02:17 PM
If they are gonna cover all his salary you can bet Walt will be at least considering it very strongly. As well he should..here's a deal I could see Walt making.

Reds get Beltran & Cash

Mets get Edinson Volquez

Walt cannot help but to give up more than he should. If it were me I'd give 'em Maloney, Valaika & Francisco as long as they took Gomes.
You wouldn't get anything for that package. You're trading C and D level prospects (with the exception of Francisco) and a guy nobody wanted on the open market last season.

Volquez is an interesting idea though. If the Mets would do it, it's a trade I would do ASAP.

traderumor
07-19-2011, 02:29 PM
Asking me after a night of watching the above 4 ERA, including 23 innings of shutout ball against the Reds, Charlie Morton deal like Greg Maddux against the Reds, sure. But, I'm still looking for pitching, for this and next year.

mdccclxix
07-19-2011, 04:45 PM
Matt Holliday from OAK to STL in 2009, a "rental" trade:

July 24, 2009: Traded by the Oakland Athletics to the St. Louis Cardinals for Shane Peterson (minors), Clayton Mortensen and Brett Wallace.

That's 2 1st rounders and a 2nd rounder. Peterson is a light hitting OFer (Sappelt), Mortenson is a reliever in Oakland (Boxberger), and Wallace is Houston's 1b (Alonso).

So Alonso, Sappelt and Boxberger for Beltran?

corkedbat
07-19-2011, 04:53 PM
Matt Holliday from OAK to STL in 2009, a "rental" trade:

July 24, 2009: Traded by the Oakland Athletics to the St. Louis Cardinals for Shane Peterson (minors), Clayton Mortensen and Brett Wallace.

That's 2 1st rounders and a 2nd rounder. Peterson is a light hitting OFer (Sappelt), Mortenson is a reliever in Oakland (Boxberger), and Wallace is Houston's 1b (Alonso).

So Alonso, Sappelt and Boxberger for Beltran?

Retaining Holliday (while never a sure thing) was always a real possibility for the birds. The is Zero chances of the Reds signing Beltran beyond this year. Pass of any major package for a rental on him then, IMO.

If we had even a 50/50 chance of keeping him around at a halfway affordable number, I might risk it, but the chances of that happening are non-existent.

reds44
07-19-2011, 05:44 PM
Matt Holliday from OAK to STL in 2009, a "rental" trade:

July 24, 2009: Traded by the Oakland Athletics to the St. Louis Cardinals for Shane Peterson (minors), Clayton Mortensen and Brett Wallace.

That's 2 1st rounders and a 2nd rounder. Peterson is a light hitting OFer (Sappelt), Mortenson is a reliever in Oakland (Boxberger), and Wallace is Houston's 1b (Alonso).

So Alonso, Sappelt and Boxberger for Beltran?
I don't think it'd take that much. I think you could get him for Volquez and Sappelt or Heisey.

I also don't know if I want to keep him with the money he will command and his age.

Mario-Rijo
07-19-2011, 07:37 PM
Matt Holliday from OAK to STL in 2009, a "rental" trade:
July 24, 2009: Traded by the Oakland Athletics to the St. Louis Cardinals for Shane Peterson (minors), Clayton Mortensen and Brett Wallace.

That's 2 1st rounders and a 2nd rounder. Peterson is a light hitting OFer (Sappelt), Mortenson is a reliever in Oakland (Boxberger), and Wallace is Houston's 1b (Alonso).

So Alonso, Sappelt and Boxberger for Beltran?

Interesting comp but like corkedbat said Holliday was a potential keeper beyond that year (not to mention in his prime) which would make him more expensive at the time. Which is why I thru out that lesser package but perhaps that was a bit light.

I will pretend Reds44 is the Mets GM and take his refusal as an attempt to negotiate. My stance: Beltran is allegedly 34 years old, has played a half season or less in his previous 2 seasons, is a 2 month rental and has very good but not elite stats right now. In other words what I can reasonably expect going forward for these last 2 months?

The re-offer: Juan Francisco, Daryl Thompson, Carlos Fisher

camisadelgolf
07-19-2011, 07:52 PM
Interesting comp but like corkedbat said Holliday was a potential keeper beyond that year (not to mention in his prime) which would make him more expensive at the time. Which is why I thru out that lesser package but perhaps that was a bit light.

I will pretend Reds44 is the Mets GM and take his refusal as an attempt to negotiate. My stance: Beltran is allegedly 34 years old, has played a half season or less in his previous 2 seasons, is a 2 month rental and has very good but not elite stats right now. In other words what I can reasonably expect going forward for these last 2 months?

The re-offer: Juan Francisco, Daryl Thompson, Carlos Fisher
Three spare part prospects who are out of options next year? Not only that, but they'd have to clear two additional 40-man roster spots to make that deal work. That offer would be a slap in the face.

reds44
07-19-2011, 07:53 PM
Three spare part prospects who are out of options next year? Not only that, but they'd have to clear two additional 40-man roster spots to make that deal work. That offer would be a slap in the face.
Yep. The only one of those guys with any value at all is Francisco. And when you consider the Mets want starting pitching, that's a big fat no.

Mario-Rijo
07-19-2011, 08:00 PM
Three spare part prospects who are out of options next year? Not only that, but they'd have to clear two additional 40-man roster spots to make that deal work. That offer would be a slap in the face.

Have you seen their roster? Have we seen some of the prospects/players change hands in these sorts of deals? Slap in the face, I would strongly disagree. I'm not saying they are super prospects but I think I've layed out why Beltran is extremely risky giving up any value at all for and these guys all have a shot at giving NY cheap production for the next half dozen years, that has a ton of value to Major League teams.

edabbs44
07-19-2011, 08:07 PM
Interesting comp but like corkedbat said Holliday was a potential keeper beyond that year (not to mention in his prime) which would make him more expensive at the time. Which is why I thru out that lesser package but perhaps that was a bit light.

I will pretend Reds44 is the Mets GM and take his refusal as an attempt to negotiate. My stance: Beltran is allegedly 34 years old, has played a half season or less in his previous 2 seasons, is a 2 month rental and has very good but not elite stats right now. In other words what I can reasonably expect going forward for these last 2 months?

The re-offer: Juan Francisco, Daryl Thompson, Carlos Fisher

You have to at least add a guy like Horst to that haul.

chicoruiz
07-19-2011, 08:13 PM
I might sub Boxberger for Fisher in that trade, but that's about as high as I'd go.

reds44
07-19-2011, 08:14 PM
I might sub Boxberger for Fisher in that trade, but that's about as high as I'd go.
That's getting closer for sure.

Mario-Rijo
07-19-2011, 08:17 PM
You have to at least add a guy like Horst to that haul.

I could live with that..deal!

Mario-Rijo
07-19-2011, 08:20 PM
I might sub Boxberger for Fisher in that trade, but that's about as high as I'd go.

No deal but I think it is a reasonable thing for the Mets to ask of me. Maybe we could expand the deal to even out our differences, Boxberger can be had but I would need something additional that I could use.

IslandRed
07-19-2011, 09:33 PM
Have you seen their roster? Have we seen some of the prospects/players change hands in these sorts of deals? Slap in the face, I would strongly disagree. I'm not saying they are super prospects but I think I've layed out why Beltran is extremely risky giving up any value at all for and these guys all have a shot at giving NY cheap production for the next half dozen years, that has a ton of value to Major League teams.

Thompson and Fisher are just guys. The Mets have warm bodies like that and can get more whenever they care to. Francisco has some potential value.

In the end, though, the Mets don't care a whit for our reasoning about what Beltran's really worth, only about what we're offering and whether it's the best offer on the table.

Blitz Dorsey
07-19-2011, 11:44 PM
Retaining Holliday (while never a sure thing) was always a real possibility for the birds. The is Zero chances of the Reds signing Beltran beyond this year. Pass of any major package for a rental on him then, IMO.

If we had even a 50/50 chance of keeping him around at a halfway affordable number, I might risk it, but the chances of that happening are non-existent.

Not to mention Holliday was 28 or 29 when the Cardinals traded for him ... while Beltran is 34.

Mario-Rijo
07-20-2011, 09:56 AM
Thompson and Fisher are just guys. The Mets have warm bodies like that and can get more whenever they care to. Francisco has some potential value.

In the end, though, the Mets don't care a whit for our reasoning about what Beltran's really worth, only about what we're offering and whether it's the best offer on the table.

The big leagues are littered with those who were once "just guys". Just go look at the trades teams have made the past few years heck any year, bunch of "just guys" and they were some of the better players dealt. This subject is brought up by a few posters every year and every year we see the returns and they are nothing at all like the masses continue to want to give up in these hypothetical scenarios. I think it's largely because most don't spend much time getting to know these prospects and therefore don't have a realistic view of them. Our top 50 prospects (and then some) all have value and in the end what I hypothetical tossed out there will be as good or better than 95% of what will be moved. Carlos Beltran is a 34 year old on his last leg, no one is giving up much more than a Francisco and change for him no matter what the Mets pay. Heck the fact they are picking up nearly 10 million to get rid of him should speak volumes.

REDREAD
07-20-2011, 06:35 PM
Not to mention Holliday was 28 or 29 when the Cardinals traded for him ... while Beltran is 34.

I think Beltran is worth somewhere between Holliday and Larry Walker.
The Rockies got Jason Burch (who went nowhere) and 2 PTBL for Walker.
Too lazy to look up the PTBL.

I think if the Reds were willing to eat Beltran's salary, he could be had for a D prospect.

Since the Mets are footing the bill.. we are going to have to make it worth their while. Would they bite on Volquez? Or maybe Juan Fransicso and another solid B prospect?

I wonder if Walt is going to exhaust all possiblities for a starting pitcher upgrade before he trades prospects for a bat though. Hate to trade away a prospect that Tampa likes for Beltran. ( A prospect that could be used to get Shields)

mdccclxix
07-22-2011, 07:05 PM
A Reds insider told me earlier that club was not close to any deals. “That can change quickly,” he said.

The Reds have discussed Hunter Pence and Carlos Beltran. But Beltran, in particular, is expensive.

I would not be surprised if the Reds wait until closer to the deadline before making a deal. With all the talk about James Shields and Ubaldo Jimenez, I’m not sure that a hitter isn’t a bigger priority.

mdccclxix
07-27-2011, 03:36 PM
1:30pm: If nothing happens in the next 24 hours to scuttle the deal, it's just Wheeler and cash for Beltran, tweets Sherman.

12:45pm: Olney tweets that Giants pitching prospect Zack Wheeler is expected to be the centerpiece in the trade, and Jon Paul Morosi agrees. Brown and Jonathan Sanchez are not in the deal, tweets Joel Sherman of the New York Post.

I don't know how good this 6th pick in the draft Zach Wheeler is, but I wish the Reds had hung in the race until now and had the gumption to get this guy, he'd have made a big difference in the lineup.

Edd Roush
07-27-2011, 03:58 PM
Do the Reds have a Wheeler equivalent in the minors? I don't really think we do. The closest I could think of is Corcino.

mdccclxix
07-27-2011, 04:00 PM
Yeah, if the Mets were set on pitching, we aren't a great match.

Mario-Rijo
07-27-2011, 04:19 PM
Yeah, if the Mets were set on pitching, we aren't a great match.

I'm sure they would rather have a young starter but they also had interest in Gary Brown as well so it looks like they would have been willing to take something else. I wish we had went after him myself but I guess I can't complain too much if they end up with Jiminez.

I(heart)Freel
07-27-2011, 05:05 PM
If Boras was behind the curtain, pulling strings, then I am surprised he'd push for a SF deal over, say, a Cincinnati one. Think of the numbers Beltran could put up in GABP leading into his free agency winter!

Then again, I guess the Reds weren't willing to pay the equivalent of Wheeler for a complete rental (and fading odds of making the playoffs this year).

klw
07-27-2011, 05:10 PM
Beltran is not in the the lineup tonight.

reds1869
07-27-2011, 05:24 PM
Beltran is not in the the lineup tonight.

Looks like it is the Giants.


From a field that included the Philadelphia Phillies, Texas Rangers and Atlanta Braves, the defending World Series champion Giants ultimately had the greatest need for the switch-hitting slugger and came with the highest bid speculation had that being 21-year-old right-hander Zack Wheeler, the sixth pick in the 2009 draft.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AnOVkiX.030NoIWl4CleNgoRvLYF?slug=ti-brown_beltran_trade_giants_mets_deadline_072711