PDA

View Full Version : Reds Rumor Central



Pages : [1] 2 3 4

klw
07-19-2011, 04:01 PM
As they are coming in fast and furious now, here's a place to dump the rumors.

http://danny-knobler.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/8590096/30717444


Even as they've strongly pursued Colorado's Ubaldo Jimenez and have looked into Houston's Wandy Rodriguez, the Reds have expanded their search for a new leadoff hitter, as well.

The two names that currently interest them, according to sources: Seattle's Chone Figgins and Oakland's Coco Crisp.

Unstated if they looked into Figgins to make Janish feel better about his slash line.

Re Ubaldo
http://danny-knobler.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/8590096/30717551


While the Yankees' interest in Jimenez has been widely reported, some people familiar with the Rockies plans believe that the Reds or the Rangers would have a better chance of landing the ace right-hander. Both Cincinnati and Texas are said to have enough young talent to motivate the Rockies to make a deal.

The Tigers have also been in touch on Jimenez, but it appears they don't have enough available talent to get him. The Tigers continue to prioritize starting pitching; they've asked about almost every starter on the market.

From Morosi

http://mlbbuzz.yardbarker.com/blog/mlbbuzz/sources_reds_interested_in_jimenez_middle_relief/5612356

The Cincinnati Reds are focused on trading for a high-end starter and/or middle reliever leading up to the non-waiver trade deadline, major league sources say.
At one point, Cincinnati was seriously considering a shortstop upgrade, but the impressive play of rookie Zack Cozart (.862 OPS in seven games) apparently has changed that thinking.


Cincinnati is among the many clubs interested in the Colorado Rockies' Ubaldo Jimenez. The Reds’ farm system is deep enough that they should be able to put together an offer worthy of consideration.
Meanwhile, sources said, the Reds have had internal discussions about a number of middle and setup relievers. The list includes Jim Johnson and Koji Uehara of the Baltimore Orioles; Jason Isringhausen of the New York Mets; Jason Frasor of the Toronto Blue Jays; and Todd Coffey of the Washington Nationals.

Caveat Emperor
07-19-2011, 04:05 PM
As I said on the other thread, I wouldn't trade someone else's bag of used baseballs for Chone Figgins.

RedLegsToday
07-19-2011, 04:09 PM
Todd Coffey of the Washington Nationals.


NNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!! How would he improve this team at all?

corkedbat
07-19-2011, 04:10 PM
As they are coming in fast and furious now, here's a place to dump the rumors.

http://danny-knobler.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/8590096/30717444



Unstated if they looked into Figgins to make Janish feel better about his slash line.

Re Ubaldo
http://danny-knobler.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/8590096/30717551

Chone Friggin' Figgins as a leadoff option? Chone (.183/.230/.243/.473) Figgins? Taveras isn't availble?

RedsManRick
07-19-2011, 04:11 PM
I HATE the idea of giving up talent to make a sideways move. Bringing in somebody who's fast but can't find 1B just because we can more comfortably call them a leadoff hitter would be a big mistake. What I'd give to have Reds manage see a leadoff hitter as somebody who, first and foremost, gets on base and not just somebody who can steal bases.

dougdirt
07-19-2011, 04:22 PM
Serious question.... why give up talent to acquire someone who isn't a good leadoff guy when you can just bring up Dave Sappelt for free?

OesterPoster
07-19-2011, 04:33 PM
Serious question.... why give up talent to acquire someone who isn't a good leadoff guy when you can just bring up Dave Sappelt for free?

Hey, Walt doesn't like those questions, so cut it out. ;)

klw
07-19-2011, 04:33 PM
Serious question.... why give up talent to acquire someone who isn't a good leadoff guy when you can just bring up Dave Sappelt for free?

I could only see the Reds taking Figgins is if he is a throw in in a acquisition of Brandon League from Seattle and taking on Figgins reduces the asking price.

mdccclxix
07-19-2011, 04:35 PM
Figgins only makes sense if Rolen is headed for the DL and Stubbs or Heisey are involved in serious trade talks involving Jiminez, Rodriguez, or Beltran. Even then it makes little sense.

dougdirt
07-19-2011, 04:36 PM
Figgins makes absolutely no sense unless he is coming in to help with the grounds crew.

CySeymour
07-19-2011, 04:37 PM
Figgins only makes sense if Rolen is headed for the DL and Stubbs or Heisey are involved in serious trade talks involving Jiminez, Rodriguez, or Beltran. Even then it makes little sense.

Yep. Cairo would still be the better option in that case.

Playadlc
07-19-2011, 04:38 PM
Wandy has had 4 bad starts out of 5. Which is odd considering he always seems to pitch better in the 2nd half. I look for him to be in the mid 3's the rest of the way.

I wonder what it would realistically take to get him.

Strikes Out Looking
07-19-2011, 04:41 PM
NNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!! How would he improve this team at all?

At the least we'd get his brother back to Redszone!

reds44
07-19-2011, 04:43 PM
This makes no sense but I would take a flyer on Figgins if he's free and Rolen is dead.

camisadelgolf
07-19-2011, 04:43 PM
I agree, reds44. If Rolen dies this week, I might kick the tires on Figgins.

hebroncougar
07-19-2011, 04:45 PM
I wouldn't touch Figgins. Now, or ever. Well, maybe if they threw in that King Felix guy or Pineda. That's the only way. Then I'd release him.

reds44
07-19-2011, 04:45 PM
I agree, reds44. If Rolen dies this week, I might kick the tires on Figgins.
Is this before or after you hit Rolen with your car? lol

Roy Tucker
07-19-2011, 04:45 PM
Didn't the Reds try out Isringhausen this spring and found him lacking?

klw
07-19-2011, 04:48 PM
Figgins makes absolutely no sense unless he is coming in to help with the grounds crew.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/f/figgich01.shtml
I have two for this

1. What his 36 OPS+ doesn't stir your fancy?

or
2. Aren't you concerned his inability to get on base (.230 OBP) might lead to the tarp missing the infield if there is a rain delay?

Okay I didn't say either was good, just that I had two.

corkedbat
07-19-2011, 04:49 PM
I agree, reds44. If Rolen dies this week, I might kick the tires on Figgins.

I'd rather have Frazier at 3B and kick Figgins to the curb.

RANDY IN INDY
07-19-2011, 05:02 PM
Serious question.... why give up talent to acquire someone who isn't a good leadoff guy when you can just bring up Dave Sappelt for free?

You, my friend, are right on the money. Those names mentioned make me want to vomit.

dougdirt
07-19-2011, 05:04 PM
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/f/figgich01.shtml
I have two for this

1. What his 36 OPS+ doesn't stir your fancy?

or
2. Aren't you concerned his inability to get on base (.230 OBP) might lead to the tarp missing the infield if there is a rain delay?

Okay I didn't say either was good, just that I had two.

2nd one was pretty good.

signalhome
07-19-2011, 05:09 PM
I'd rather have Frazier at 3B and kick Figgins to the curb.

I'd rather have a one-armed Frazier than Figgins.

camisadelgolf
07-19-2011, 05:12 PM
Is this before or after you hit Rolen with your car? lol
In that case, I guess I'd need to kick my own tires.

Kc61
07-19-2011, 05:14 PM
Logically, the Reds should make their biggest deal - presumably for a pitcher - as a first order of business.

Then, they'll know which prospects go, which prospects stay.

Then, afterwards, presumably they will make the other moves. Like the Figgins and Coffey acquisitions.

Ron Madden
07-19-2011, 05:17 PM
I HATE the idea of giving up talent to make a sideways move. Bringing in somebody who's fast but can't find 1B just because we can more comfortably call them a leadoff hitter would be a big mistake. What I'd give to have Reds manage see a leadoff hitter as somebody who, first and foremost, gets on base and not just somebody who can steal bases.

I don't want Figgins or anyone of his ilk on the Reds 25 man roster, especially as long as Dusty Baker is filling out the lineup card. ;)

Guacarock
07-19-2011, 05:28 PM
Looks like a few of you are wigging out over Figgins.

So I presume you all believe he's toast. No one thinks a change of scenery could kick-start his game?

CySeymour
07-19-2011, 05:29 PM
Looks like a few of you are wigging over Figgins.

So I presume you all believe he's toast. No one thinks a change of scenery could kick-start his game?

It doesn't appear to be anything to do with his present situation. He just appears to have lost it.

mdccclxix
07-19-2011, 05:35 PM
Seattle is known as a deep dark hole for the careers of once respectable offensive players.

wheels
07-19-2011, 05:36 PM
While I find the idea of Figgins as a Red particularly cloying, I find it equally encouraging that they seem to be making a strong push for Jimenez.

Even if they don't land him (and they probably won't), I like that they're willing to go big on guy that will not just help for the remainder of this lost season, but a guy that can be the ace of what would be a potentially monster rotation in years to come.

I'd do backflips if Walt pulled it off.

RedsManRick
07-19-2011, 05:40 PM
Looks like a few of you are wigging out over Figgins.

So I presume you all believe he's toast. No one thinks a change of scenery could kick-start his game?

I think he never really had it the way some people seem to think. He makes good contact and can work a walk. But he's got no power whatsoever and at 33, I'm inclined to say he's lost a step. All of his great seasons have been BABIP driven -- something not likely to recur given his slowing down. No, he's not a .183 hitter as his .209 BABIP shows. But even if you give him a bunch of singles, you're looking at something like a .270/.340/.350 guy. That's valuable as a utility guy, but is it really an upgrade at 3B when you're getting a .750 OPS and solid defense from Miguel Cairo as it is?

If you're going to go into the trade market and give away talent to get talent, you better be acquiring something that's actually an upgrade over what you already have.

_Sir_Charles_
07-19-2011, 05:41 PM
I'd personally hesitate on Wandy. He's been trending downwards the past 2 years. The only reason I'd consider him is if they'd get him at a discount like buying low. If they ask for Ace-like returns...I pass.

IslandRed
07-19-2011, 05:42 PM
Looks like a few of you are wigging out over Figgins.

So I presume you all believe he's toast. No one thinks a change of scenery could kick-start his game?

What I believe is that someone in Seattle is trying to drum up interest in Figgins by pretending an actual baseball team might want him.

_Sir_Charles_
07-19-2011, 05:46 PM
Figgins is having a monumentally bad year, but it seems to have come out of nowhere. His numbers look like they've been pretty consistent for a long time. I'm not very familiar with him so I'm just wondering if somebody knows if something has led to this season?

Ron Madden
07-19-2011, 05:50 PM
Figgins is having a monumentally bad year, but it seems to have come out of nowhere. His numbers look like they've been pretty consistent for a long time. I'm not very familiar with him so I'm just wondering if somebody knows if something has led to this season?

Could be his luck and his youth are waving good bye. ;)

dougdirt
07-19-2011, 05:51 PM
Figgins is having a monumentally bad year, but it seems to have come out of nowhere. His numbers look like they've been pretty consistent for a long time. I'm not very familiar with him so I'm just wondering if somebody knows if something has led to this season?

A low BABIP is the first thing to look at. It is at an incredibly low .209. It has been over .300 for the most part of his career. His walk rate is much lower than it has been the past few years, down at 5.9% compared to 10-13% the previous few seasons. He is expanding his strikezone quite a bit more this season compared to others as well, 25.9% outside swing rate, which has been between 15-20% the past several seasons. He is also making more contact with pitches outside of the zone than ever before. So he is expanding his zone more and making more contact on pitches out of the zone more, which is probably leading to weaker contact than before, which is leading to a lower BABIP than ever before.

OldXOhio
07-19-2011, 05:54 PM
At least this year, the disappointment can be had well before the deadline rather than on the day of...

Look, i'm truly hoping Walt gets the TOR starter, some help for the pen, and a power hitting LF so don't take this as me trying to be a downer. I just don't think it's going to happen if for no other reason than it's not what we as an organization do. These ridiculous Coffey, Figgins, Izzy rumors have reminded me of that fact. These are the moves we make, regardless of GM...the ones that largely leave this board with a sour taste in its mouth. Some end up panning out over time, but I can't remember the last time we made a huge splash during the last week of July. Mid 90s with Portugal, Burba and Wells?

CrackerJack
07-19-2011, 05:56 PM
They took away Dusty's Patterson and he wants another one apparently.

Griffey012
07-19-2011, 05:59 PM
I'd rather have a one-armed Frazier than Figgins.

Can we teach Leake to play Left, Center, and 3rd? I mean he is probably faster than Figgins at this point in his career, and he can definitely hit better. Plus he doesn't take up an extra roster spot.

OldXOhio
07-19-2011, 06:02 PM
I'd rather have Johnny Bench at 3B and kick Figgins to the curb.

updated it for ya....

CesarGeronimo
07-19-2011, 06:02 PM
Looks like a few of you are wigging out over Figgins.

So I presume you all believe he's toast. No one thinks a change of scenery could kick-start his game?

Maybe a Reds scout has noticed a flaw in Figgins' hitting that the Reds think they can fix!

dougdirt
07-19-2011, 06:07 PM
Maybe a Reds scout has noticed a flaw in Figgins' hitting that the Reds think they can fix!

What is it? Stop expanding the zone so much? That is where I would start with him (and most hitters to be honest).

OldXOhio
07-19-2011, 06:07 PM
Can we also include ex-Reds in this thread?

Jeff Keppinger traded to SF for two minor league arms

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/07/giants-acquire-jeff-keppinger-.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Kc61
07-19-2011, 06:07 PM
These ridiculous Coffey, Figgins, Izzy rumors have reminded me of that fact. These are the moves we make, regardless of GM...the ones that largely leave this board with a sour taste in its mouth. Some end up panning out over time, but I can't remember the last time we made a huge splash during the last week of July. Mid 90s with Portugal, Burba and Wells?

I think the Reds will be quite active this time. Not only for guys like Coffey and Figgins, although I could see those type deals as well. But at least one major deal.

Reasoning is two fold. First, the team has a lot of talent wasting away at AAA. Reds cannot keep these guys down there indefinitely or their value will dissipate. Reds need to trade some of them.

Second, is attendance. There will be bitter disappointment if this team is 8 games out, in fourth place, by August 15. GABP will be empty. Fans will be furious that the team keeps sitting on its hands.

So I'm thinking, and hoping, that this time around there will be serious moves intended to improve the team.

mdccclxix
07-19-2011, 06:11 PM
Can we also include ex-Reds in this thread?

Jeff Keppinger traded to SF for two minor league arms

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/07/giants-acquire-jeff-keppinger-.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Good move for them, Kepp will surely spark some offense in SF.

Rojo
07-19-2011, 06:14 PM
No one thinks a change of scenery could kick-start his game?

Kinda WJ's MO, isn't it?

I think Figguns would recover but he's not a game-changer and the Reds have a hill to climb at this point. They need a starter or bat that's going to carry them for a month.

mdccclxix
07-19-2011, 06:14 PM
I think the Reds will be quite active this time. Not only for guys like Coffey and Figgins, although I could see those type deals as well. But at least one major deal.

Reasoning is two fold. First, the team has a lot of talent wasting away at AAA. Reds cannot keep these guys down there indefinitely or their value will dissipate. Reds need to trade some of them.

Second, is attendance. There will be bitter disappointment if this team is 8 games out, in fourth place, by August 15. GABP will be empty. Fans will be furious that the team keeps sitting on its hands.

So I'm thinking, and hoping, that this time around there will be serious moves intended to improve the team.

It better happen sooner than later - July finishes like so:

Cards - Astros, Cubs
Brewers - Cubs, Astros
Reds - Braves, Giants

We could be 7 out by Sunday. 10 out by next week.

Benihana
07-19-2011, 06:19 PM
Logically, the Reds should make their biggest deal - presumably for a pitcher - as a first order of business.

Then, they'll know which prospects go, which prospects stay.

Then, afterwards, presumably they will make the other moves. Like the Figgins and Coffey acquisitions.


While I find the idea of Figgins as a Red particularly cloying, I find it equally encouraging that they seem to be making a strong push for Jimenez.

Even if they don't land him (and they probably won't), I like that they're willing to go big on guy that will not just help for the remainder of this lost season, but a guy that can be the ace of what would be a potentially monster rotation in years to come.

I'd do backflips if Walt pulled it off.


Agree x2

Priorities for the next 10 days:

1. Ubaldo Jimenez
2. None
3. None
4. Wandy Rodriguez
5. LF Cleanup Hitter
6. None
7. None
8. None
9. None
10. Bullpen Help

membengal
07-19-2011, 07:12 PM
Looks like a few of you are wigging out over Figgins.

So I presume you all believe he's toast. No one thinks a change of scenery could kick-start his game?


Change the name to Pedro Feliz and you sound like a Cardinals fan talking yourself into that acquisition last year. That worked out awesome for them too...

Mario-Rijo
07-19-2011, 07:22 PM
Looks like a few of you are wigging out over Figgins.

So I presume you all believe he's toast. No one thinks a change of scenery could kick-start his game?

I'm not sure he can't but boy he has stunk it up for quite some time now. I'm on the fence. Since his game isn't power I thought the expansive home field there in Seattle would have been more a help than a hinderance to his game. But I think theoretically the Figgins of old is a great fit, but is this him or just an old Figgins?

Will M
07-19-2011, 07:28 PM
Agree x2

Priorities for the next 10 days:

1. Ubaldo Jimenez
2. None
3. None
4. Wandy Rodriguez
5. LF Cleanup Hitter
6. None
7. None
8. None
9. None
10. Bullpen Help

Nice.

I think the Reds should go hard after Ubaldo. Wandy seems like a nice target but he is a secondary choice.

I believe we could get that left fielder with lesser prospects especially if we are willing to add some salary (see one Beltran, Carlos)

IMO the Reds need both a TOR pitcher and a bat in order to be a serious contender.

Tom Servo
07-19-2011, 07:35 PM
Change the name to Pedro Feliz and you sound like a Cardinals fan talking yourself into that acquisition last year. That worked out awesome for them too...
Yeah but Figgins had a bunch of productive years before falling off a cliff last year in Seattle. Pedro Feliz was never good.

CesarGeronimo
07-19-2011, 10:50 PM
What is it? Stop expanding the zone so much? That is where I would start with him (and most hitters to be honest).

Oh, I don't know, maybe the scouts figured out that Figgins changed his approach and the Reds can get him back on track. . .


"Jamie Quirk believes Willy got away from his game plan. He needs to bunt more and keep the ball on the ground and get some infield hits. I don't know if he tried to hit home runs, or what, but Jamie think he changed his approach and that we can get him back on track." - Walt Jocketty

membengal
07-20-2011, 06:44 AM
Yeah but Figgins had a bunch of productive years before falling off a cliff last year in Seattle. Pedro Feliz was never good.

Others have already touched in this thread that Figgins was probably over-rated for a good chunk of his "good" years.

Regardless, my larger point remains, namely, when you have a collapse as total as Figgins' has been this year, there is severely diminished utility to "change of scenery" hopes...

klw
07-20-2011, 06:49 AM
From Fay

A Reds insider says the club does not see relief pitching as a need.

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2011/07/19/as-the-rumor-mill-turns/

dabvu2498
07-20-2011, 06:51 AM
Olney is saying this morning that Reds are targeting James Shields and TB scouts have been evaluating Reds minor leaguers.

http://twitter.com/#!/Buster_ESPN

What's a James Shields worth?

LoganBuck
07-20-2011, 06:56 AM
Olney is saying this morning that Reds are targeting James Shields and TB scouts have been evaluating Reds minor leaguers.

http://twitter.com/#!/Buster_ESPN

What's a James Shields worth?

Yonder Alonso, Chris Heisey, plus another cheap higher end prospect, imo.

Maybe Yonder and Grandal

membengal
07-20-2011, 06:58 AM
By the way, one of the problems with "waiting until the deadline" to make moves to address weaknesses in the club, is you leave yourself such little time for the moves to take affect. Not much of the season left at this point.

Whatever move Walt makes (if any) better improve this team for future years.

To have helped this season, they needed to have been a lot more aggressive about a month ago (or last off-season, in a happier world...). A lot of wasted time this past month. Heck, it took way too long to get Cozart up here. The general inaction has been so puzzling as they dig themselves a deeper and deeper hole.

Dan
07-20-2011, 07:00 AM
Olney is saying this morning that Reds are targeting James Shields and TB scouts have been evaluating Reds minor leaguers.

http://twitter.com/#!/Buster_ESPN

What's a James Shields worth?

Hernandez, Janish, Volquez, and Yonder for Shields and Hak-Ju Lee.

signalhome
07-20-2011, 08:36 AM
Hernandez, Janish, Volquez, and Yonder for Shields and Hak-Ju Lee.

Yes please, but I highly doubt they're dealing Hak-Ju Lee.

mattfeet
07-20-2011, 08:45 AM
Per MLBTR :

Reds remain agressive on Jimenez front. Package would include top catching prospect Devin Mesoraco.

:/

Dan
07-20-2011, 08:47 AM
Per MLBTR :

Reds remain agressive on Jimenez front. Package would include top catching prospect Devin Mesoraco.

:/

Not happy about that. Would prefer to hang on to both Mez and Grandal for now.

lollipopcurve
07-20-2011, 08:54 AM
Do not trade Mesoraco.

Mario-Rijo
07-20-2011, 09:01 AM
Do not trade Mesoraco.

Walt and company have already tried to deal the kid off once for Lee last year, he's a goner if they can get Ubaldo. And while Mes' stock may be up more than this point last year Ubaldo is younger and signed longer than Lee was. I actually think Walt enjoys giving up his share, as if someone is gonna return him the favor down the road. He better wake up this isn't 1980 anymore these young GM's don't get the concept of you scratch my back...

signalhome
07-20-2011, 09:04 AM
Per MLBTR :

Reds remain agressive on Jimenez front. Package would include top catching prospect Devin Mesoraco.

:/

No. I'm all for trading prospects for proven guys (especially relatively cheap proven guys), as I think prospects on the whole are a bit overrated, but not when that prospect is a catcher with a legitimate middle-of-the-order bat.

OesterPoster
07-20-2011, 09:07 AM
Call me crazy, but I'm secretly hoping the Jimenez talk is bogus and the Reds end up with James Shields instead.

kbrake
07-20-2011, 09:11 AM
I would be ok dealing Mes but it would drop the value of the rest of the package.

How about Mes and pieces for Ubaldo and then Alonso and pieces for Shields? :)

wolfboy
07-20-2011, 09:13 AM
Call me crazy, but I'm secretly hoping the Jimenez talk is bogus and the Reds end up with James Shields instead.

I wouldn't be upset if that happened either. Does anyone know what Shields' contract status is?

Mario-Rijo
07-20-2011, 09:16 AM
No. I'm all for trading prospects for proven guys (especially relatively cheap proven guys), as I think prospects on the whole are a bit overrated, but not when that prospect is a catcher with a legitimate middle-of-the-order bat.

I as big a believer in Mes as there is but all this talk about legit middle of the order bat is a bit of stretch I think. He could be but I wouldn't be betting on it. I don't think there has been enough info to come to that conclusion at this point.

dunner13
07-20-2011, 09:18 AM
I would hate to give up Mes but Grandal doesn't look to be to far behind him in hitting or catching. So would you rather have Mes catching and our current rotation or Grandal catching and Ubaldo as our ace. To me Ubaldo is a serious game changer for the next couple of years, if we make the playoffs he could match up against a pitcher like Roy Halladay, right now we have no one like that.

Dan
07-20-2011, 09:18 AM
I wouldn't be upset if that happened either. Does anyone know what Shields' contract status is?

From baseball-reference.com:

2011 29 Tampa Bay Rays $4,250,000
2012 30 Tampa Bay Rays *$7,000,000 $7M Team Option, $2M Buyout
2013 31 Tampa Bay Rays *$9,000,000 $9M Team Option, $1.5M Buyout
2014 32 Tampa Bay Rays *$12,000,000 $12M Team Option, $1M Buyout

signalhome
07-20-2011, 10:07 AM
I as big a believer in Mes as there is but all this talk about legit middle of the order bat is a bit of stretch I think. He could be but I wouldn't be betting on it. I don't think there has been enough info to come to that conclusion at this point.

~.400 wOBA through A+/AA/AAA last year, .376 wOBA with 134 wRC+ so far this year. Good walk rate at just under 10%, manageable K% in the high teens. ISO of .202 this year, posted a .265 ISO last year. If he can produce anywhere close to those numbers, he will be a middle-of-the-order hitter. It is definitely understandable to be skeptical -- plenty of people have crushed it in the minors and were never able to make it in the bigs. However, the numbers he has put up over the past year and a half certainly indicate he has the potential to hit right in the heart of the Reds' lineup.

lollipopcurve
07-20-2011, 10:15 AM
~.400 wOBA through A+/AA/AAA last year, .376 wOBA with 134 wRC+ so far this year. Good walk rate at just under 10%, manageable K% in the high teens. ISO of .202 this year, posted a .265 ISO last year. If he can produce anywhere close to those numbers, he will be a middle-of-the-order hitter. It is definitely understandable to be skeptical -- plenty of people have crushed it in the minors and were never able to make it in the bigs. However, the numbers he has put up over the past year and a half certainly indicate he has the potential to hit right in the heart of the Reds' lineup.

Indeed. Grandal is the one to move, IMO, though I'd prefer they keep both as insurance vs. Votto's likely departure.

I(heart)Freel
07-20-2011, 10:38 AM
From baseball-reference.com:

2011 29 Tampa Bay Rays $4,250,000
2012 30 Tampa Bay Rays *$7,000,000 $7M Team Option, $2M Buyout
2013 31 Tampa Bay Rays *$9,000,000 $9M Team Option, $1.5M Buyout
2014 32 Tampa Bay Rays *$12,000,000 $12M Team Option, $1M Buyout

Similar to Jimenez contract?

Seems like the kind of cost-controlled move that Walt/Reds can do. Walt could play them against each other a little to see which pitcher would cost less (no Mes, please).

corkedbat
07-20-2011, 10:40 AM
Indeed. Grandal is the one to move, IMO, though I'd prefer they keep both as insurance vs. Votto's likely departure.

I would agree, but I believe Grandal would have to be a PTBNL until sometime in August because of the one-year rule.

I'm not wild about including Mes for Jiminez because of Ubaldo's reported 2-3 MPH loss of velocity.

mace
07-20-2011, 10:42 AM
By the way, one of the problems with "waiting until the deadline" to make moves to address weaknesses in the club, is you leave yourself such little time for the moves to take affect. Not much of the season left at this point.

Whatever move Walt makes (if any) better improve this team for future years.

To have helped this season, they needed to have been a lot more aggressive about a month ago (or last off-season, in a happier world...). A lot of wasted time this past month. Heck, it took way too long to get Cozart up here. The general inaction has been so puzzling as they dig themselves a deeper and deeper hole.

Bingo. That's been my pet peeve for years and years. It drives me batty that teams wait until the deadline to make deals. In the Reds' case, it always seems as if they're almost hoping to be out of contention by then so they won't have to pay up. Rather than waiting to see if you're still in the race, why don't you do something in June to ensure that you are? Make the move before the big series with the Cardinals, Brewers, Pirates, Indians and Yankees.

On the same front, that's why it would have been so advantageous to bring up the prospects in mid-June, as well. Find out for sure if Cozart is the answer at short. If Sappelt or Alonso is the answer in left. If Frazier can help at third. If Mesoraco can make Hernandez expendable. Then you make your trades on a basis of being informed. As it stands now, it's guesswork.

mace
07-20-2011, 10:46 AM
Do not trade Mesoraco.

Amen to this. Hey, I lust for a Jimenez or Shields. But a guy like Mesoraco--a young, solid catcher with great makeup and a versatile, powerful bat--is one of the top commodities in the game. In modern baseball, nothing is more valuable (economically speaking) than a good young player in his pre-arbitration years. When that player is also a catcher, it should make him untouchable.

corkedbat
07-20-2011, 10:50 AM
I would be ok dealing Mes but it would drop the value of the rest of the package.

How about Mes and pieces for Ubaldo and then Alonso and pieces for Shields? :)

If they were to add Ubaldo AND Shields (not likely), that would certainly free up starters to deal for an OFer.

RedsManRick
07-20-2011, 11:02 AM
Jimenez is younger, cheaper and more of a ground ball pitcher. I wouldn't be upset in the least if we landed Shields, but I think he's clearly the 2nd best option.

That said, I wouldn't let Mesoraco get in the way of dealing for either guy.

TRF
07-20-2011, 11:05 AM
I am unwavering in my opinion that the Reds may believe that Willis is that rotation upgrade. his last start shortened by rain, 4.2 IP 5 hits 1 BB, 5 K's. Leake was very good last night, giving up just 1 run. Cueto has been pretty dominant. Bailey, up and down this year, but seems to be returning to his early season form.

Arroyo is killing the Reds. I think he's still not recovered from Mono. I'd like to see the Reds DL him with exhaustion, let him rest for 2 weeks before picking up a ball again, then ease him back in fresher.

The pen is fine. the rotation has been better than fine. This team has a hole in LF and 3B. This is the line from LF this season: .220 .315 .368 .683 That's wretched. Here is 3B: .250 .300 .385 .685 Also wretched. Add that to SS: .237 .282 .288 .569 and a third of your offense is beyond horrible.

Ubaldo is a nice target. James Shields is the AL version of Aaron Harang IMO. That ain't nothing mind you, just an observation. Either or both would be upgrades to an already good rotation. I think Arroyo needs to either be DL'd or sent to another team as a part of a package.

But this team needs bats, badly. Cozart so far has done well at SS. I'm of a mind that the job is his til he loses it. Janish will be the supersub(Juan Castro) next year and for the rest of his career. He had his shot as a starter, didn't work out.

3B and LF. Those are desperate needs.

REDREAD
07-20-2011, 11:14 AM
Do not trade Mesoraco.

Just talking hypothetically..
But what if we are given the choice of giving up (as part of a trade)

Mescoraco
OR
Wood + Alonso.

That would make it pretty tempting to trade Mescoraco, if it lets us keep Wood, IMO. I am assuming the team has confidence in Grandal.. If they have no confidence in Grandal, ship him out instead.

Caveat Emperor
07-20-2011, 11:21 AM
Great pitching is available every year -- in FA or via trade. One year it's Erik Bedard, the next year it's Dan Haren, now it's Ubaldo Jimenez.

During that time, how many middle-order catchers have changed hands?

Don't trade Devin Mesoraco. Burn the system to the ground, but keep the guys you can't find anywhere else.

lollipopcurve
07-20-2011, 11:22 AM
Great pitching is available every year -- in FA or via trade. One year it's Erik Bedard, the next year it's Dan Haren, now it's Ubaldo Jimenez.

During that time, how many middle-order catchers have changed hands?

Don't trade Devin Mesoraco. Burn the system to the ground, but keep the guys you can't find anywhere else.

Excellent point.

RANDY IN INDY
07-20-2011, 11:35 AM
Absolutely agree, Caveat!

Ron Madden
07-20-2011, 11:36 AM
Great pitching is available every year -- in FA or via trade. One year it's Erik Bedard, the next year it's Dan Haren, now it's Ubaldo Jimenez.

During that time, how many middle-order catchers have changed hands?

Don't trade Devin Mesoraco. Burn the system to the ground, but keep the guys you can't find anywhere else.

I like this post and agree 100%.

IslandRed
07-20-2011, 11:37 AM
Bingo. That's been my pet peeve for years and years. It drives me batty that teams wait until the deadline to make deals. In the Reds' case, it always seems as if they're almost hoping to be out of contention by then so they won't have to pay up. Rather than waiting to see if you're still in the race, why don't you do something in June to ensure that you are? Make the move before the big series with the Cardinals, Brewers, Pirates, Indians and Yankees.

Because the other team gets a vote.

:p

corkedbat
07-20-2011, 11:38 AM
Just talking hypothetically..
But what if we are given the choice of giving up (as part of a trade)

Mescoraco
OR
Wood + Alonso.

That would make it pretty tempting to trade Mescoraco, if it lets us keep Wood, IMO. I am assuming the team has confidence in Grandal.. If they have no confidence in Grandal, ship him out instead.

You give them Alonso and Wood in a heartbeat (and not think twice). Firstbasemen and mid-rotation pitchers are not that hard to find. Not so with premium catching prospects.

wolfboy
07-20-2011, 11:43 AM
Great pitching is available every year -- in FA or via trade. One year it's Erik Bedard, the next year it's Dan Haren, now it's Ubaldo Jimenez.

During that time, how many middle-order catchers have changed hands?

Don't trade Devin Mesoraco. Burn the system to the ground, but keep the guys you can't find anywhere else.

Like Joey Votto?

FWIW, Texas had three great catching prospects just a few short years ago, and they've gotten next to zero production from any of them. In fact, only one is still with the organization.

Caveat Emperor
07-20-2011, 11:55 AM
Like Joey Votto?

FWIW, Texas had three great catching prospects just a few short years ago, and they've gotten next to zero production from any of them. In fact, only one is still with the organization.

Mesoraco hit AAA 2 years younger than Saltalamacchia (the best of the TEX prospects, if I remember correctly), and has posted an OPS .060 higher than Salty for his career at AAA (roughly ~400 PAs for each player at the AAA level).

And, though Votto is the reigning NL MVP, the fact is that quality hitting 1B are not difficult to find. The Reds have one right now in AAA waiting for the callup.

mace
07-20-2011, 12:16 PM
Because the other team gets a vote.

:p

Lou Brock, Keith Hernandez, David Justice and Carlos Beltran were all traded in June. Randy Johnson was traded in May.

In the main, your point is well-taken. Granted, the selling teams want to hold back their lottery-type guys until the panic sets in. But not every useful player is Ubaldo Jimenez. The fact is that teams--i.e., the Reds--seem to resign themselves to standing pat until the last minute. I don't agree with that passive philosophy.

And while there may well be an advantage for the selling team to wait it out, it could sometimes work the other way, as well. For instance, the Reds right now have a lot of attractive young targets. Those guys would have been eminently available in June. By waiting, a trading partner might find that the Reds are out of contention by late July and not as willing to part with their top prospects.

klw
07-20-2011, 12:26 PM
Reds are still buyers- Walt to Fay
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/


“It’s all rumors at this point,” Jocketty said. “But we’re looking at any number of ways to improve our club. Our pro scouts are out checking out players. We want to be in position where we have as much information as possible. We’re looking at the top players. . . If they’re available.”

Are the Reds targeting a specific area?

“It depends on which day,” Jocketty said.

Starting pitching seems to have been the focus earlier, but the Reds just lost two games in which they failed to score a run.

“We’re looking to upgrade any area,” Jocketty said.

LvJ
07-20-2011, 12:28 PM
Reds are still buyers- Walt to Fay
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/
‪darth vader says NOOOOOOO‬‏ - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tim5nU3DwIE)

wolfboy
07-20-2011, 12:36 PM
Mesoraco hit AAA 2 years younger than Saltalamacchia (the best of the TEX prospects, if I remember correctly), and has posted an OPS .060 higher than Salty for his career at AAA (roughly ~400 PAs for each player at the AAA level).

And, though Votto is the reigning NL MVP, the fact is that quality hitting 1B are not difficult to find. The Reds have one right now in AAA waiting for the callup.

I think Joey Votto is more than a mere quality bat. It's hard for me to reconcile putting someone like Mes on the untouchable list, but leaving Joey Votto off. Agree to disagree I guess.

Personally, I'm not too upset if Mes goes in a deal for a good pitcher. I think Mes is a great prospect. He's the very type you use to bring quality in return.

Benihana
07-20-2011, 01:16 PM
Here's a totally out-of-the-box idea:

Trade Yonder Alonso and Jonny Gomes to the Pirates for Pedro Alvarez.

Pirates are buyers looking for bats. They need a LF and their 1B has a .660 OPS. Pedro Alvarez is not in their immediate plans for this season, as he was shipped to the minors.

However Alvarez is exactly what the Reds wish Alonso was- a guy who can play 3B now but may eventually have to move to 1B a few years from now. Alonso is unlikely to help the Reds this year. The Reds can still move some arms and prospects for Jimenez or Shields, then have Sappelt or Lewis platoon with Heisey for LF. Alvarez can maintain 3B until/if Rolen comes back, and gives them a core building block for the next several years.

Will M
07-20-2011, 01:37 PM
Its seems the Reds have awoken from their sleep of the last 12 months and now are looking at several ways to improve the team. Everything from getting an ACE, a bat or even a cheap arm for the pen. I wish they would have started this process at last years trade deadline but hopefully they can improve the team going forward. Its nice to see (finally).

vaticanplum
07-20-2011, 01:50 PM
Here's a totally out-of-the-box idea:

Trade Yonder Alonso and Jonny Gomes to the Pirates for Pedro Alvarez.

Pirates are buyers looking for bats. They need a LF and their 1B has a .660 OPS. Pedro Alvarez is not in their immediate plans for this season, as he was shipped to the minors.

However Alvarez is exactly what the Reds wish Alonso was- a guy who can play 3B now but may eventually have to move to 1B a few years from now. Alonso is unlikely to help the Reds this year. The Reds can still move some arms and prospects for Jimenez or Shields, then have Sappelt or Lewis platoon with Heisey for LF. Alvarez can maintain 3B until/if Rolen comes back, and gives them a core building block for the next several years.

I do not think the Pirates will trade Alvarez. There's merit to the idea in theory, but Pirates fans have suffered years and years of their best prospects being traded off at the deadline. To trade Alvarez at the moment when they're just starting to get fans back at the ballpark would be a huge public miscue, even if Alvarez is hurt and out of shape and can't help the team right now.

Incidentally, I'm with TRF that the biggest target of the Reds right now should be bats, while simultaneously addressing the Arroyo situation. Bats could be a quick fix and will require less to give up than starting pitching, and they're more of an immediate need; the pitching, if well handled, can take us through this year. I think the pitching situation comes after the bats or in the offseason, though I believe it does require some serious analysis then.

IslandRed
07-20-2011, 02:56 PM
Lou Brock, Keith Hernandez, David Justice and Carlos Beltran were all traded in June. Randy Johnson was traded in May.

In the main, your point is well-taken. Granted, the selling teams want to hold back their lottery-type guys until the panic sets in. But not every useful player is Ubaldo Jimenez. The fact is that teams--i.e., the Reds--seem to resign themselves to standing pat until the last minute. I don't agree with that passive philosophy.

And while there may well be an advantage for the selling team to wait it out, it could sometimes work the other way, as well. For instance, the Reds right now have a lot of attractive young targets. Those guys would have been eminently available in June. By waiting, a trading partner might find that the Reds are out of contention by late July and not as willing to part with their top prospects.

Those are all reasonable points. In the end, though, trades don't get done until the timetable works for both teams. Sellers usually take longer to come around than buyers.

Eric_the_Red
07-20-2011, 03:57 PM
Both Mesoraco and Frazier are out of the lineup tonight for Louisville.

cinreds21
07-20-2011, 04:01 PM
‪"And Here We Go" - Joker‬‏ - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSLlZh9yelk)

klw
07-20-2011, 04:04 PM
Both Mesoraco and Frazier are out of the lineup tonight for Louisville.

Meso caught last night so unless he was going to DH tonight, he was going to sit this one out.

LoganBuck
07-20-2011, 05:30 PM
I am writing this on.my phone so looking stuff up is hard, just saw a Twitter post from one of the baseball reporters that the reds are in on coco crisp. I could get behind that idea but what would.he cost?

pahster
07-20-2011, 05:37 PM
I am writing this on.my phone so looking stuff up is hard, just saw a Twitter post from one of the baseball reporters that the reds are in on coco crisp. I could get behind that idea but what would.he cost?

Crisp won't improve the Reds unless they're only interested in him as a replacement for Lewis as the 5th outfielder. He doesn't get on base much anymore and he's not hitting for any power. It seems unlikely that he'd play better defense than Heisey, though I'm sure he's a better defender than both Gomes and Lewis, but that's not saying much.

HotCorner
07-20-2011, 05:38 PM
Gomes to ATL?



@jonmorosi
Jon Morosi
#Braves are interested in Jonny Gomes as a RH hitter, sources tell @Ken_Rosenthal and I. #Reds

traderumor
07-20-2011, 05:40 PM
Gomes to ATL?
The Mohawk and the Chop, a marriage made in heaven. Do it, if you get a Bobby Cox bobblehead doll, consider yourself to have already won the trade.

Sidebar: Do it after they leave town this weekend. Our luck is he'd hit the game winning homer in each game for the Braves.

Tom Servo
07-20-2011, 05:42 PM
Gomes to ATL?
‪M. Bison "Yes Yes!" Widescreen HD reupload‬‏ - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3ALwKeSEYs)

CrackerJack
07-20-2011, 05:43 PM
Gomes to ATL?

*snickers*

Again, can you trade a guy who has a bobblehead night coming up or in the vicinity of a trade? :)

< still scratching head as to why he has a stupid bobblehead, could venture to guess why, but won't go there />

LoganBuck
07-20-2011, 05:46 PM
Crisp won't improve the Reds unless they're only interested in him as a replacement for Lewis as the 5th outfielder. He doesn't get on base much anymore and he's not hitting for any power. It seems unlikely that he'd play better defense than Heisey, though I'm sure he's a better defender than both Gomes and Lewis, but that's not saying much.

Crisp ops in last 30 days .741

He does play in the Oakland collisium

Roy Tucker
07-20-2011, 05:49 PM
*snickers*

Again, can you trade a guy who has a bobblehead night coming up or in the vicinity of a trade? :)

< still scratching head as to why he has a stupid bobblehead, could venture to guess why, but won't go there />

We can trade the bobbleheads too. Throw in a new ATL paint job on them for free.

Kc61
07-20-2011, 05:53 PM
Crisp ops in last 30 days .741

He does play in the Oakland collisium

Crisp wouldn't be bad. Not perfect though.

Good points:

He is a switch hitter. Reds currently have none. He brings a left handed bat to the top of the lineup, which Reds need.

He presumably would play excellent defense in LF. I'm assuming Stubbs stays in center.

He wouldn't require three years to get accustomed to the major leagues, like a prospect would.

The problems I see are:

Potentially declining skills. But a team like the Reds usually has some guys who are no longer at their peak. Crisp isn't that old, he probably has some left in the tank.

He's not the middle of the order bat Reds need. He allows you to move Stubbs lower in the order. But Reds still have that Phillips/Rolen cleanup situation. LF is the slot to fill that hole.

HotCorner
07-20-2011, 05:56 PM
*snickers*

Again, can you trade a guy who has a bobblehead night coming up or in the vicinity of a trade? :)

< still scratching head as to why he has a stupid bobblehead, could venture to guess why, but won't go there />


Has an opposing player ever had a bobblehead night?

RedsManRick
07-20-2011, 05:58 PM
Braves are in the market for a RH Bat and per Jon Morosi via Twitter:

#Braves are interested in Jonny Gomes as a RH hitter, sources tell @Ken_Rosenthal and I. #Reds

And I'm no grammar Nazi, but can people who write for a living please learn the proper use of "I" vs. "me". It's not hard. Ignore the 'and' and just use what sounds right.

toledodan
07-20-2011, 06:00 PM
Braves are in the market for a RH Bat and per Jon Morosi via Twitter:

#Braves are interested in Jonny Gomes as a RH hitter, sources tell @Ken_Rosenthal and I. #Reds

And I'm no grammar Nazi, but can people who write for a living please learn the proper use of "I" vs. "me". It's not hard. Ignore the 'and' and just use what sounds right.


maybe we can trade him in time for weekend series. if the braves offer a warm body at this point for gomes i would trade him.

pahster
07-20-2011, 06:00 PM
Crisp ops in last 30 days .741

He does play in the Oakland collisium

His OPS+, which controls for park and league effects, is 95. That's below average.

toledodan
07-20-2011, 06:02 PM
His OPS+, which controls for park and league effects, is 95. That's below average.



if the royals didn't want to keep crisp than the reds should stay far away.

Will M
07-20-2011, 06:07 PM
Braves are in the market for a RH Bat and per Jon Morosi via Twitter:

#Braves are interested in Jonny Gomes as a RH hitter, sources tell @Ken_Rosenthal and I. #Reds

And I'm no grammar Nazi, but can people who write for a living please learn the proper use of "I" vs. "me". It's not hard. Ignore the 'and' and just use what sounds right.


maybe we can trade him in time for weekend series. if the braves offer a warm body at this point for gomes i would trade him.

done.
Gomes is fine if part of a platoon but IMO the Reds need a better bat in LF. clear the roster spot & salary. then go get a MOR hitter for left field. his initials are CB.

RedLegSuperStar
07-20-2011, 06:16 PM
Gomes to the Braves for PTBNL

Reds Trade Todd Frazier to the Pads for Ryan Ludwick

It could happen.. Thoughts?

mattfeet
07-20-2011, 06:16 PM
The Reds are "definitely buyers. We're looking to upgrade any area." - Walt Jocketty per MLBTR

chicoruiz
07-20-2011, 06:20 PM
Gomes is fine if part of a platoon but IMO the Reds need a better bat in LF. clear the roster spot & salary. then go get a MOR hitter for left field. his initials are CB.


Charlie Brown? No way! He's predominantly a pitcher anyway. Now if we could get Snoopy...

crazybob60
07-20-2011, 06:22 PM
Wondering who the Reds would be looking at on the Braves roster if they do the Gomes deal?????

RedLegSuperStar
07-20-2011, 06:25 PM
Rotoworld.com states that the Braves are on the verge of a deal for a RH bat. Gomes??

RedLegSuperStar
07-20-2011, 06:26 PM
Wondering who the Reds would be looking at on the Braves roster if they do the Gomes deal?????

Doubt they care? Probably a minor league pitcher (SP or RP). Heisey, Alonso, & Sappelt all deserve a shot.. and are combined cheaper then Gomes

signalhome
07-20-2011, 06:35 PM
Braves are in the market for a RH Bat and per Jon Morosi via Twitter:

#Braves are interested in Jonny Gomes as a RH hitter, sources tell @Ken_Rosenthal and I. #Reds

And I'm no grammar Nazi, but can people who write for a living please learn the proper use of "I" vs. "me". It's not hard. Ignore the 'and' and just use what sounds right.

Yes, please. I couldn't care less about most grammatical errors, but that one in particular has always bothered me.

And trading away someone starting four games a week (estimate) is an odd move for a team that is trying to buy at the deadline. I'm not saying I'm against it, not at all. I'm just saying it's an odd move.

RedsManRick
07-20-2011, 06:38 PM
Gomes to the Braves for PTBNL

Reds Trade Todd Frazier to the Pads for Ryan Ludwick

It could happen.. Thoughts?

I'd much rather send them Juan Francisco and/or Maloney. I'd like to see Frazier given time at 3B this year.

LoganBuck
07-20-2011, 06:59 PM
Crisp won't improve the Reds unless they're only interested in him as a replacement for Lewis as the 5th outfielder. He doesn't get on base much anymore and he's not hitting for any power. It seems unlikely that he'd play better defense than Heisey, though I'm sure he's a better defender than both Gomes and Lewis, but that's not saying much.

Crisp ops in last 30 days .741

He does play in the Oakland collisium

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-20-2011, 07:00 PM
The Mohawk and the Chop, a marriage made in heaven. Do it, if you get a Bobby Cox bobblehead doll, consider yourself to have already won the trade.

Sidebar: Do it after they leave town this weekend. Our luck is he'd hit the game winning homer in each game for the Braves.

That, and Saturday is Jonny Gomes bobblehead night. In what could just be the strangest trade of all, Gomes could be playing for the Braves against the Reds on the night the Reds hand out his bobblehead.

A lot of people, myself included, speculated that this team would make sure that no move was made that didn't have JG in GABP on July 23. This wasn't exactly the thinking though.

reds44
07-22-2011, 11:25 AM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/trade-deadline-needs-for-perplexing-cincinnati-reds-remain-a-mystery-072111

Good article from Rosenthal with quotes from Jocketty. Most interesting parts:


On Thursday night, I posed the same question to Jocketty with a slightly different twist, asking him to identify the team's biggest need.

"A hitter," Jocketty said.

A leadoff man? A middle-of-the-order slugger?

"All of the above," Jocketty said, chuckling.

"Ideally, you're always looking for that guy who can mash in the middle of the lineup, put (Brandon) Phillips in a different spot, put (Scott) Rolen in a different spot.

"It's important to have a good leadoff guy. But right now if we could find the right RBI guy, that's what we'll be looking for."

http://sportsblogs.star-telegram.com/.a/6a00e54f7fc4c58833015433aa09a2970c-300wi

Also, a new name Rosenthal mentioned was Michael Bourn.

Oxilon
07-22-2011, 11:34 AM
Michael Bourn is a RBI guy?

reds44
07-22-2011, 11:38 AM
Michael Bourn is a RBI guy?
That was more in reference to getting a leadoff hitter.

cumberlandreds
07-22-2011, 11:44 AM
That, and Saturday is Jonny Gomes bobblehead night. In what could just be the strangest trade of all, Gomes could be playing for the Braves against the Reds on the night the Reds hand out his bobblehead.

A lot of people, myself included, speculated that this team would make sure that no move was made that didn't have JG in GABP on July 23. This wasn't exactly the thinking though.

I guess it would be too late to modify the bobblehead to have him doing the tomahawk chop while fiddling with his helmet? :)

RedsManRick
07-22-2011, 11:52 AM
Beltran would be such a great fit. Interestingly, of all the teams that have been reported to be in on him, the Reds haven't been mentioned. But given that way Jocketty works, that could be a good sign...

hebroncougar
07-22-2011, 11:53 AM
Beltran would be such a great fit. Interestingly, of all the teams that have been reported to be in on him, the Reds haven't been mentioned. But given that way Jocketty works, that could be a good sign...

I've thought he'd be a great target all along. I can't imagine he'd be all that expensive in terms of prospects either.

RedsManRick
07-22-2011, 11:55 AM
I've thought he'd be a great target all along. I can't imagine he'd be all that expensive in terms of prospects either.

Reportedly, the Mets want to pay all of his salary in order to maximize the prospect(s) they get in return. Right now, it seems they are holding out for a top prospect, but no teams seem to be willing to budge as of yet.

Captain Hook
07-22-2011, 11:57 AM
Has it been mentioned whether the Reds are willing to take on a good chunk of payroll(and just how much of a big chunk) or if they're trying to get something done without adding a big salary?It seems that it should be assumed that Walt has the green light to up payroll considering the "we're buyers comment" and the names that are being thrown around but do we really know if that's the case?

Will M
07-22-2011, 12:01 PM
Beltran would be such a great fit. Interestingly, of all the teams that have been reported to be in on him, the Reds haven't been mentioned. But given that way Jocketty works, that could be a good sign...

IMO the Reds biggest offensive need is someone to hit 4th between Votto & Bruce. Beltran would work. However, it seems that the cost is high. Jonny still crushes lefties. Could we simply go get a big left handed bat to platoon with Jonny? I bet there are a few of these guys out there. Not that he is available but I am thinking of a Seth Smith type of player.

Honestly I'd go get TWO left handed bats if I were Walt. The other one would be for either 3B or CF (splitting time with guys already on the roster or maybe a CF platoon if Stubbs was dealt as part of a big trade for an ace starter) .

Is it the offense? or the pitching? well its both. if the Reds get a guy like Shields or Ubaldo they'll have a better shot in October. without getting some better bats they won't get to October.

medford
07-22-2011, 12:23 PM
IMO the Reds biggest offensive need is someone to hit 4th between Votto & Bruce. Beltran would work. However, it seems that the cost is high. Jonny still crushes lefties. Could we simply go get a big left handed bat to platoon with Jonny? I bet there are a few of these guys out there. Not that he is available but I am thinking of a Seth Smith type of player.



Yonder Alonso?

RedsManRick
07-22-2011, 12:23 PM
From Buster Olney on Twitter:
Source:Carlos Beltran trade talks down to five serious teams, which includes BOS, SF, PHI, ATL, TEX. CLE, PIT basically out of conversation.

klw
07-22-2011, 12:28 PM
IMO the Reds biggest offensive need is someone to hit 4th between Votto & Bruce. Beltran would work. However, it seems that the cost is high. Jonny still crushes lefties. Could we simply go get a big left handed bat to platoon with Jonny? I bet there are a few of these guys out there. Not that he is available but I am thinking of a Seth Smith type of player.
.

I have never been one to bang the Dorn drum but it is silly he has not been brought up at some point given how he feasts on RHP. Platooning him with Gomes may not lead to the prettiest of defense but could give some give some good offense.

Will M
07-22-2011, 12:32 PM
Yonder Alonso?

i get the feeling that he really can't play LF. I think the Reds blew it by not asking Joey to consider moving to left or at least practice a bit out there. If Joey could be servicable in left then the Reds could call up Alonso (and play him at 1B vs rhp) right now & the team would be better. but i wonder if his defense in left will make guys like Gomes & Dunn look like gold glove defenders.

few more name who could be available:
Melky
Damon or Matt Joyce as part of a Shields trade
C Headley can play LF & 3B and the Padres are out of contention

klw
07-22-2011, 12:38 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/jon_heyman/07/22/around.the.majors/index.html?eref=writers


• It's been said Seattle was showcasing Chone Figgins in the outfield possibly for the Reds. But what's to showcase? One look at the stat sheet should be enough, as he's hitting just .182.


The A's have gotten multiple hits on Coco Crisp, including the Indians and Reds.

Caveat Emperor
07-22-2011, 12:41 PM
I don't get the fascination with Coco Crisp. He's no better than what's on the roster and in the system.

Will M
07-22-2011, 12:44 PM
I don't get the fascination with Coco Crisp. He's no better than what's on the roster and in the system.

i can see him in CF (or splitting time in CF with Heisey) if Stubbs is dealt as part of a trade for an ace.

Caveat Emperor
07-22-2011, 01:26 PM
i can see him in CF (or splitting time in CF with Heisey) if Stubbs is dealt as part of a trade for an ace.

That scenario makes some sense, especially with Sappelt reverting back to a normal human being.

reds44
07-22-2011, 02:11 PM
So Walt wants an "RBI" guy and he's not interested in Beltran. How does that make sense?

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-22-2011, 02:12 PM
So Walt wants an "RBI" guy and he's not interested in Beltran. How does that make sense?

Hopefully he's interested in someone who can help beyond just this year. Hunter Pence would be the guy I'd hope he's at least called about.

reds44
07-22-2011, 02:14 PM
I would almost bet my house Ludwick is his guy. Which is amazingly disappointing.

Dan
07-22-2011, 02:16 PM
So Walt wants an "RBI" guy and he's not interested in Beltran. How does that make sense?

Beltran has a no-trade, and maybe he's not interested in the Reds. Or the Mets aren't interested in what the Reds can offer. Interest has to go both ways. Otherwise it's just stalking.

_Sir_Charles_
07-22-2011, 02:22 PM
I have never been one to bang the Dorn drum but it is silly he has not been brought up at some point given how he feasts on RHP. Platooning him with Gomes may not lead to the prettiest of defense but could give some give some good offense.

I've always been baffled by that. Put Gomes & Dorn's numbers together and that's a lethal LF combination. The problem is getting Dusty to utilize a platoon in the proper way. He'll hit Gomes vs RHP's & Dorn vs LHPs.

Always Red
07-22-2011, 02:24 PM
I have never been one to bang the Dorn drum but it is silly he has not been brought up at some point given how he feasts on RHP. Platooning him with Gomes may not lead to the prettiest of defense but could give some give some good offense.


I would almost bet my house Ludwick is his guy. Which is amazingly disappointing.

I agree; I don't think Ludwick is any better than what we already have.

I'm not sure the Reds see Dorn as a major leaguer; if so, we'd have seen him by now.

Also, I'd like to cast my no vote on Figgins and Crisp at this point.

_Sir_Charles_
07-22-2011, 02:25 PM
I'm not sure the Reds see Dorn as a major leaguer; if so, we'd have seen him by now.

I think they keep waiting for him to improve on his hitting against LHP's. Instead, they should be utilizing the skills he DOES have. And that's mashing righties. He could certainly provide more use than Fred Lewis gives us.

Mario-Rijo
07-22-2011, 02:35 PM
I would almost bet my house Ludwick is his guy. Which is amazingly disappointing.

I'm thinking he believes Heisey/Gomes & a LH bat of their liking is every bit as good or better than anyone they can get including Beltran. I would disagree if Beltran is healthy but maybe Walt doesn't want to give up something of value for someone who may end up breaking down anyday. I would take the risk because I'd bet good money he's dealt for nothing more than a Francisco type or 2 at best but clearly Walt doesn't seem to be optimistic. That has to be it because he can't piss and moan about the money on this one.

And just a BTW let's not forget Walt is big on chemistry and ridding themselves of a gamer like Gomes and installing a guy who is very business like in his approach is in the back of his mind.

dunner13
07-22-2011, 02:38 PM
I think we have learned in the past that just because were not listed as a team thats interested doesn't mean we are not talking to the Mets. I think the problem right now is that all the teams that are selling are asking for the moon and probably wont drop there price til the last 48 hours or so before the deadline.

Caveat Emperor
07-22-2011, 02:42 PM
Read Stark's Rumblings on ESPN.com -- his feeling (along with the feeling of GMs he's spoken to) is that the guys who are "available" (Shields, Jimenez, Pence, etc.) are all only available in the "well, if you do something crazy and offer us all 5 of your top prospects..." sense.

The Reds don't make big deals to acquire big-name players. It's not in the team DNA. The last big deal they made (Griffey) ended up burning them. They'll make trades around the margins, or trade for guys who might be washed up (Rolen) and give them another shot, but they aren't going to go out and make a huge splash on an acquisition.

Ryan Ludwick for Tood Frazier + PTBNL is exactly the kind of deal I'd expect to see this season.

PuffyPig
07-22-2011, 02:47 PM
Is there anyone more overrated than Hunter Pence?

Career .821 OPS.

It's a little bit higher this year, but his BABIP is 50 points above his career average.

His salary is $6.9M and will only get higher. Gomes and Heisey can actually out perform him with a straight platoon.

reds44
07-22-2011, 02:48 PM
If he believes that then he is wrong. Period.

dougdirt
07-22-2011, 02:51 PM
Is there anyone more overrated than Hunter Pence?


I am convinced that Hunter Pence is the best athlete that has ever lived. The fact that he is as good as he is while looking like an uncoordinated 6' 8" freshman in high school who grew a foot over the summer is flat out incredible. Dude must be seriously athletic to overcome that.

Tom Servo
07-22-2011, 03:04 PM
I think we end up with Figgins, for better or (almost incredibly likely) worse.

Mario-Rijo
07-22-2011, 03:09 PM
Read Stark's Rumblings on ESPN.com -- his feeling (along with the feeling of GMs he's spoken to) is that the guys who are "available" (Shields, Jimenez, Pence, etc.) are all only available in the "well, if you do something crazy and offer us all 5 of your top prospects..." sense.

The Reds don't make big deals to acquire big-name players. It's not in the team DNA. The last big deal they made (Griffey) ended up burning them. They'll make trades around the margins, or trade for guys who might be washed up (Rolen) and give them another shot, but they aren't going to go out and make a huge splash on an acquisition.

Ryan Ludwick for Tood Frazier + PTBNL is exactly the kind of deal I'd expect to see this season.

I mostly agree with you and Stark except on one thing. That Cliff Lee thing felt real to me last year and like I have stated many times I'm not the biggest believer in the F.O.'s desire to make deals I often believe there is alot more gamesmanship going on than anything else. But using Lee as an example I think Walt has been given some leeway if the salary isn't extremely prohibitive and none of these guys are given what they bring to the table (the 2 pitchers anyway). In fact they are pretty serious bargains and I think if teams would actually take a blockbuster Walt might find himself willing to do it at this juncture. If not he's slipping pretty seriously arms like these at prices like these don't come very often. Time to make the Reds serious for the next couple of seasons, something big like this is necessary for the F.O. to gain some measure of trust from the fans.

Superdude
07-22-2011, 03:11 PM
I am convinced that Hunter Pence is the best athlete that has ever lived. The fact that he is as good as he is while looking like an uncoordinated 6' 8" freshman in high school who grew a foot over the summer is flat out incredible. Dude must be seriously athletic to overcome that.

:lol: Pence is like the epitome of awkward in every aspect of the game. He's like the anti-junior

Mario-Rijo
07-22-2011, 03:11 PM
:lol: Pence is like the epitome of awkward in ever aspect of the game.

Absolutely the Astros sure have had some outstanding goofy types over the years. Berkman "Goofy Pop" comes to mind also.

Benihana
07-22-2011, 03:20 PM
I mostly agree with you and Stark except on one thing. That Cliff Lee thing felt real to me last year and like I have stated many times I'm not the biggest believer in the F.O.'s desire to make deals I often believe there is alot more gamesmanship going on than anything else. But using Lee as an example I think Walt has been given some leeway if the salary isn't extremely prohibitive and none of these guys are given what they bring to the table (the 2 pitchers anyway). In fact they are pretty serious bargains and I think if teams would actually take a blockbuster Walt might find himself willing to do it at this juncture. If not he's slipping pretty seriously arms like these at prices like these don't come very often. Time to make the Reds serious for the next couple of seasons, something big like this is necessary for the F.O. to gain some measure of trust from the fans.


Totally agree. If Walt doesn't make a move for one of these starting pitchers, I will begin (continue?) to lose faith.

A guy like Ludwick is fine as a complimentary addition, not as the only addition. This team needs a Ubaldo (huh?) or Shields.

I'm scheduled to go to one of the games at Wrigley the weekend of August 6th. If the Reds don't make one or two major moves by then, that will likely be the last game I'll watch all season. I've had enough, despite the fact that I still believe this team can win the division so long as they make a move.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-22-2011, 03:24 PM
I would almost bet my house Ludwick is his guy. Which is amazingly disappointing.

If Walt can't get past this ex-Cards obsession, he's really going to be quite useless going forward. Enough of trying to reconstruct your old STL teams in Cincinnati, Walt.

Mario-Rijo
07-22-2011, 03:37 PM
If Walt can't get past this ex-Cards obsession, he's really going to be quite useless going forward. Enough of trying to reconstruct your old STL teams in Cincinnati, Walt.

Familiarity makes him feel much better about how a guy will fit into the club chemistry wise. He can't help himself he puts too much emphasis on it IMO and I like chemistry.

klw
07-22-2011, 03:54 PM
Per Fay http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2011/07/22/nothing-close-on-trade-front/


A Reds insider told me earlier that club was not close to any deals. “That can change quickly,” he said.

The Reds have discussed Hunter Pence and Carlos Beltran. But Beltran, in particular, is expensive.

I would not be surprised if the Reds wait until closer to the deadline before making a deal. With all the talk about James Shields and Ubaldo Jimenez, I’m not sure that a hitter isn’t a bigger priority.

Rojo
07-22-2011, 05:08 PM
Pence sports a .789 road OPS. The Astros would be wise to move him for a good price.

reds44
07-22-2011, 05:11 PM
Pence sports a .789 road OPS. The Astros would be wise to move him for a good price.
That's not exactly awful.

For the record, I think I would be okay with Figgins if we got him for free. IIRC, he can play third, correct?

Caveat Emperor
07-22-2011, 06:23 PM
That's not exactly awful.

For the record, I think I would be okay with Figgins if we got him for free. IIRC, he can play third, correct?

The OPS expectations for what is and isn't a good player may have been skewed for many people by what we all became used to in the steroid-era.

Even still, Figgins is legitimately terrible. Ryan Freel could probably post better numbers if he came out of retirement tomorrow.

Caveat Emperor
07-22-2011, 06:32 PM
And, as I say that, Chone Figgins is out of the lineup for Seattle tonight.

Joseph
07-22-2011, 06:34 PM
Thats nothing unusual of late though Caveat.

Rojo
07-22-2011, 07:00 PM
That's not exactly awful.

And for a corner outfielder, it's not exactly exciting either.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-22-2011, 07:02 PM
And, as I say that, Chone Figgins is out of the lineup for Seattle tonight.

And Cozart was originally in the Reds lineup but now he's apparently been replaced by Renteria.

I need a drink. :alcohol:

Brutus
07-22-2011, 07:03 PM
And Cozart was originally in the Reds lineup but now he's apparently been replaced by Renteria.

I need a drink. :alcohol:

Perhaps he's going to be included in a trade for Jose Reyes.

What? It's July 22. A guy can dream.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-22-2011, 07:12 PM
Cozart thankfully is in there. Renteria was listed for awhile.

Tom Servo
07-22-2011, 08:22 PM
And, as I say that, Chone Figgins is out of the lineup for Seattle tonight.
here was their lineup from yesterday with Figgins in it.

Ichiro, RF
Ryan, SS
Kennedy, 3B
Olivo, C
Smoak, 1B
Bard, DH
Gutierrez, CF
Figgins, LF
Wilson, 2B

Adam Kennedy and Miguel Olivo = 3 and 4 punch. :scared:

signalhome
07-22-2011, 08:26 PM
http://www.rotoworld.com/headlines/mlb/334061/report-reds-scouting-ms-vargas-fister


FOX Sports' Jon Paul Morosi reports that the Reds scouted the Mariners' Jason Vargas and Doug Fister in Toronto this week.
Vargas has two more years of salary arbitration and Fister has yet to reach arbitration, so the Mariners don't have any extra incentive to deal either hurler. But, they'll surely be willing to listen to offers for both. It's clear that the Reds plan to add a starter before the deadline, as they've also been connected to Ubaldo Jimenez and James Shields.

Brutus
07-22-2011, 08:27 PM
here was their lineup from yesterday with Figgins in it.

Ichiro, RF
Ryan, SS
Kennedy, 3B
Olivo, C
Smoak, 1B
Bard, DH
Gutierrez, CF
Figgins, LF
Wilson, 2B

Adam Kennedy and Miguel Olivo = 3 and 4 punch. :scared:

What an incredibly bad lineup.

cinreds21
07-22-2011, 08:28 PM
A ton of people on here are gonna be very mad if all the Reds get is Jason Vargas or Doug Fister. lol.

mth123
07-22-2011, 08:32 PM
http://www.rotoworld.com/headlines/mlb/334061/report-reds-scouting-ms-vargas-fister

Vargas strikes me as a 6 ERA waiting to happen in GABP. I can be convinced that Fister is worthwhile, but I hope its as a backfill while the Reds deal another arm for something more impactful.

cinreds21
07-22-2011, 08:44 PM
I liked Vargas I knew him when he played for the Mudcats in 2005, nice guy. But I don't see him any better than Wood. Nor with Fister.

mth123
07-22-2011, 09:19 PM
I liked Vargas I knew him when he played for the Mudcats in 2005, nice guy. But I don't see him any better than Wood. Nor with Fister.

I like Wood better as well, but if Wood could be dealt for a decent bat who can hit against RH, I'd be good with Fister as a backfill.

signalhome
07-22-2011, 09:22 PM
I like Wood better as well, but if Wood could be dealt for a decent bat who can hit against RH, I'd be good with Fister as a backfill.

Agree completely. I'm not a big fan of Vargas, though. Please no.

cincrazy
07-22-2011, 10:27 PM
here was their lineup from yesterday with Figgins in it.

Ichiro, RF
Ryan, SS
Kennedy, 3B
Olivo, C
Smoak, 1B
Bard, DH
Gutierrez, CF
Figgins, LF
Wilson, 2B

Adam Kennedy and Miguel Olivo = 3 and 4 punch. :scared:

The Mariners have a .223 team batting average, and a .288 team OBP. They have a team full of Paul Janishs. Holy crap Batman.

corkedbat
07-23-2011, 01:45 AM
Vargas strikes me as a 6 ERA waiting to happen in GABP. I can be convinced that Fister is worthwhile, but I hope its as a backfill while the Reds deal another arm for something more impactful.

I'd be OK with one of them as throw-in in a Dustin Ackley Deal. :D

Guacarock
07-23-2011, 02:07 AM
If we're scouting Fister and Vargas, then they're more likely the throw-ins to get us to take Figgins, not Ackley. Figgins' contract is huge and runs two more years. Wonder which contract we have that's of the same magnitude and extends out as long?

Could we be talking about sending Joseph D. Votto to the Mariners? Anything and everything is always possible, but something tells me "not."

corkedbat
07-23-2011, 02:49 AM
If we're scouting Fister and Vargas, then they're more likely the throw-ins to get us to take Figgins, not Ackley. Figgins' contract is huge and runs two more years. Wonder which contract we have that's of the same magnitude and extends out as long?

Could we be talking about sending Joseph D. Votto to the Mariners? Anything and everything is always possible, but something tells me "not."

I was just joking.

camisadelgolf
07-23-2011, 03:17 AM
I'd be OK with one of them as throw-in in a Dustin Ackley Deal. :D
http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/50312_2227818237_6035_n.jpg

Guacarock
07-23-2011, 05:17 AM
I was just joking.

Have no fear: Got the joke! Took you about as seriously as I take Tinky Winky. Now, about my trade of Joseph D. Votto for Chone Figgins...That's another matter!

jojo
07-23-2011, 07:37 AM
And, as I say that, Chone Figgins is out of the lineup for Seattle tonight.

The Ms have ruined Figgins....he had a poor first year and apparently he's been coaxed into a philosophy that walks are for suckers. Figgins without walks or above average leather is a minor leaguer.

But there is a trade to be made with the Ms.... Kennedy as a stop gap for third, Fister for the back end of the rotation, and League for the pen. This could patch some holes for the Reds and wouldn't be like shopping at the Lexus dealership...

camisadelgolf
07-23-2011, 08:47 AM
The Reds have plenty of back-of-the-rotation options. They need a front-of-the-rotation option.

traderumor
07-23-2011, 09:04 AM
The Mariners have a .223 team batting average, and a .288 team OBP. They have a team full of Paul Janishs. Holy crap Batman.Do you think their fans are clamoring for more pitching? "If we could just shut them out every game, we'd be in this thing." :p

jojo
07-23-2011, 10:11 AM
The Reds have plenty of back-of-the-rotation options. They need a front-of-the-rotation option.

Fister is better than any of the Reds options. He'd be an upgrade that would slide well into the Reds rotation.

Benihana
07-23-2011, 10:17 AM
Fister is better than any of the Reds options. He'd be an upgrade that would slide well into the Reds rotation.

Doesn't move the needle enough if at all. Ihave no interest in a deal with the Mariners.

jojo
07-23-2011, 10:30 AM
Doesn't move the needle enough if at all. Ihave no interest in a deal with the Mariners.

Like it or not, Fister/League significantly upgrades a major weakness for the Reds. Plus they'd only basically require surplus from the Reds org which wouldn't preclude other deals (like for a bat for instance) that Walt might also make.

There's a straightforward rationale for why Walt might do something like this.

mth123
07-23-2011, 11:44 AM
Like it or not, Fister/League significantly upgrades a major weakness for the Reds. Plus they'd only basically require surplus from the Reds org which wouldn't preclude other deals (like for a bat for instance) that Walt might also make.

There's a straightforward rationale for why Walt might do something like this.

I'm coming around to the idea that Fister would be a nice guy in the middle of the rotation and as splitty as the Reds are, a lefty bat like Kennedy who could play a little second and third would be useful in a platoon with say Cairo at 3B. It woulld probably provide more production from 3B than we've gotten all season. I'd probably leave League out of it just to keep the cost down. If Seattle would roll the dice on adding some pop by taking Frazier, a fringe rotation guy like Matt Maloney and a pen arm with upside like Jose Arredondo, I'd do that. It would free up Wood for a deal for a bat. I'd give more if Kennedy could back up at SS, but he can't so Frazier, Maloney, Arredondo would be the max I'd go.

I'd stick Willis in the pen and wouldn't worry about holding Wood in reserve in case Bailey's shoulder explodes or Leake hits his inning max.

Benihana
07-23-2011, 11:45 AM
Like it or not, Fister/League significantly upgrades a major weakness for the Reds. Plus they'd only basically require surplus from the Reds org which wouldn't preclude other deals (like for a bat for instance) that Walt might also make.

There's a straightforward rationale for why Walt might do something like this.

Nope, not interested.

Will M
07-23-2011, 11:50 AM
Nope, not interested.

+1

two types of moves we could make:
1) give up real talent for big needs (ie ace). no rentals. helps in 2011 & beyond
2) give up fringe players for rentals

if we picked up a LH bat or bullpen arm for some C prospects thats fine. but don't give up real talent for a MOR starter.

Will M
07-23-2011, 11:52 AM
Not an April fools:

ESPN reports that the Reds have 'nibbled' on Beltran. what this means I don't know but he'd certainly help the team if they could get him.

mth123
07-23-2011, 11:53 AM
You guys do realize that Fister would be no worse than the Reds third best starter (second best if Bailey gets hurt again)?

Will M
07-23-2011, 12:06 PM
You guys do realize that Fister would be no worse than the Reds third best starter (second best if Bailey gets hurt again)?

IMO the Reds need at least one and probably two TOR starters. I want to be a serious world series contender, not just win 90 games & the NL Central. Fister may be better than Arroyo or Volquez or the 2011 version of Wood. But I want the team to go get someone better.

1) ace
2) Cueto
3) Bailey (fingers crossed)
4) Leake
5) Arroyo (untradable)

now IF we got that ace and also had plans to shut down Bronson then we would have to look at that 5th spot. but i don't want to give up any of our few great trade chips for anyone who doesn't profile as a #1 or #2 starter on a real playoff team.

jojo
07-23-2011, 12:17 PM
You guys do realize that Fister would be no worse than the Reds third best starter (second best if Bailey gets hurt again)?

And he's cheap, would come with multiple years of control and again the Reds probably wouldn't miss what they'd have to give up.

mth123
07-23-2011, 12:22 PM
IMO the Reds need at least one and probably two TOR starters. I want to be a serious world series contender, not just win 90 games & the NL Central. Fister may be better than Arroyo or Volquez or the 2011 version of Wood. But I want the team to go get someone better.

1) ace
2) Cueto
3) Bailey (fingers crossed)
4) Leake
5) Arroyo (untradable)

now IF we got that ace and also had plans to shut down Bronson then we would have to look at that 5th spot. but i don't want to give up any of our few great trade chips for anyone who doesn't profile as a #1 or #2 starter on a real playoff team.

I want an ace too, but they won't get one without sending an arm or two the other way. I'm all for giving up quantity for quality, but you still need to back fill for the guys dealt off. There is a game every day and that ace can only go once every fifth day. To get an ace and a bat, I'm guessing Wood and Volquez go for sure and Leake may need to go too.

Will M
07-23-2011, 12:46 PM
I want an ace too, but they won't get one without sending an arm or two the other way. I'm all for giving up quantity for quality, but you still need to back fill for the guys dealt off. There is a game every day and that ace can only go once every fifth day. To get an ace and a bat, I'm guessing Wood and Volquez go for sure and Leake may need to go too.

ok fair enough. if Fister is backfill for the rotation as part of a series of moves then thats fine. however, it seems like the anti Walt to do something like this.

mth123
07-23-2011, 12:50 PM
ok fair enough. if Fister is backfill for the rotation as part of a series of moves then thats fine. however, it seems like the anti Walt to do something like this.

Good point

mth123
07-23-2011, 01:03 PM
Lets assume some creativity that probably doesn't exist

Frazier, Arredondo and Maloney for Fister and Kennedy
Wood and Valaika for Beltran
Leake, Stubbs and Boxberger for Ubaldo

Heisey CF
Phillips 2B
Votto 1B
Beltran LF
Bruce RF
Hernandez/Hanigan C
Cairo/Kennedy 3B
Cozart SS

Lewis, Gomes and Renteria on the bench (but I'm open to cutting somebody loose and bringing up Sappelt to lead off with Heisey on the bench)

Ubaldo
Cueto
Bailey
Fister
Arroyo

Willis
Lecure
Ondrusek
Bray
Masset
Chapman
Cordero

That team wins the Division and would have a chance in the play-offs and most of the top guys are still intact.

I know its a dream.

Will M
07-23-2011, 01:10 PM
Lets assume some creativity that probably doesn't exist

Frazier, Arredondo and Maloney for Fister and Kennedy
Wood and Valaika for Beltran
Leake, Stubbs and Boxberger for Ubaldo

Heisey CF
Phillips 2B
Votto 1B
Beltran LF
Bruce RF
Hernandez/Hanigan C
Cairo/Kennedy 3B
Cozart SS

Lewis, Gomes and Renteria on the bench (but I'm open to cutting somebody loose and bringing up Sappelt to lead off with Heisey on the bench)

Ubaldo
Cueto
Bailey
Fister
Arroyo

Willis
Lecure
Ondrusek
Bray
Masset
Chapman
Cordero

That team wins the Division and would have a chance in the play-offs and most of the top guys are still intact.

I know its a dream.

this is the kind of thinking i'd love to see from the Reds.

mth123
07-23-2011, 01:16 PM
this is the kind of thinking i'd love to see from the Reds.

Well me too, but I do realize that these are just a bunch of names on a message board and deals like these may be way off from what is actually possible or whether any of these guys are really available, but there is plenty left to deal if need be to make something happen and the future doesn't have to be mortgaged.

Will M
07-23-2011, 02:13 PM
Walt failed to improve the team at the 2010 trade deadline.
He failed to improve the team in the 2010-2011 off season.
IMO he needs to improve the team at this years trade deadline otherwise its time for some new blood. Preferrably someone with a little bit of new school/sabermetrics thinking to balance out all the old school guys the Reds braintrust seems to have.

mth123
07-23-2011, 02:17 PM
Walt failed to improve the team at the 2010 trade deadline.
He failed to improve the team in the 2010-2011 off season.
IMO he needs to improve the team at this years trade deadline otherwise its time for some new blood. Preferrably someone with a little bit of new school/sabermetrics thinking to balance out all the old school guys the Reds braintrust seems to have.

I'm frustrated with Walt too and have thought like this alot. Then I remember that Bill Bavasi probably gets the job when Walt goes.:barf:

Ron Madden
07-23-2011, 02:32 PM
I don't think Walt has made one trade to improve the future of this organization but just the thought of Bavasi scares the hell outta me.

corkedbat
07-23-2011, 03:05 PM
Not an April fools:

ESPN reports that the Reds have 'nibbled' on Beltran. what this means I don't know but he'd certainly help the team if they could get him.

* Beltran would be at the top of my list if he were under control for next year, but there are too many other holes to use the resources on, the Mets will ask way more than a rental is worth, there is zero chance of signing him, there is no possibility of even draft picks if we wanted to off arb and I'monly looking for acquisitions who can help in 2012 & 13 as well as now.

* Nelson Cruz would have been my ideal target a couple of years ago when he may have been available, but that ship sailed

* I don't see us getting preferrable guys like Kemp or Either

* Not excited by Pence

If I were to go after a prospectit would besending a catcher to the Red Sox in a deal including Bryce Brandt

* In the end, I think we add Ryan Lucwick because:
- potential to respond well to the GAB
- previous relationship with walt
- cheaper in terms of talent
- package with Bell, Adams or Qualls
- might be able to sign him to a reasonable shortterm deal (2 years w/option?) if he thrives
- no problem jetisonning him if he disappoints

Tony Cloninger
07-23-2011, 04:28 PM
* Beltran would be at the top of my list if he were under control for next year, but there are too many other holes to use the resources on, the Mets will ask way more than a rental is worth, there is zero chance of signing him, there is no possibility of even draft picks if we wanted to off arb and I'monly looking for acquisitions who can help in 2012 & 13 as well as now.

* Nelson Cruz would have been my ideal target a couple of years ago when he may have been available, but that ship sailed

* I don't see us getting preferrable guys like Kemp or Either

* Not excited by Pence

If I were to go after a prospectit would besending a catcher to the Red Sox in a deal including Bryce Brandt

* In the end, I think we add Ryan Lucwick because:
- potential to respond well to the GAB
- previous relationship with walt
- cheaper in terms of talent
- package with Bell, Adams or Qualls
- might be able to sign him to a reasonable shortterm deal (2 years w/option?) if he thrives
- no problem jetisonning him if he disappoints



Why do people around here dislike Pence? So what if he looks ugly doing it?

Kc61
07-23-2011, 05:02 PM
Why do people around here dislike Pence? So what if he looks ugly doing it?

Pence would be fine if Reds could control him for awhile.

Brutus
07-23-2011, 05:21 PM
Add shortstop to the list of positions the Reds will need to address if they want to remain in contention...

RANDY IN INDY
07-23-2011, 05:25 PM
Unbelievable how many things are not going right this season. Feel real bad for Cozart. He was hitting and playing as good as anyone.

CTA513
07-23-2011, 05:26 PM
Add shortstop to the list of positions the Reds will need to address if they want to remain in contention...

Votto wants Reyes

RANDY IN INDY
07-23-2011, 05:30 PM
That ain't gonna happen.

reds44
07-23-2011, 05:47 PM
Who are the shortstops available? Can Figgins play SS?

CTA513
07-23-2011, 05:48 PM
Who are the shortstops available? Can Figgins play SS?

I hope not

Tom Servo
07-23-2011, 06:08 PM
Figgins has only 17 career starts at SS.

RedLegSuperStar
07-23-2011, 08:57 PM
Reyes has been the only name and I highly doubt he moves. Hardy would of been a candidate but he was recently locked up to a long term deal. I'd be blown away if other names surfaced.

Quick fix would be to put Frazier at SS until Cozart is healthy (depending on if he has to go to the DL or if its day to day) and Cairo at 3rd. Bring up an arm or someone like Hermida. Can't see Alonso getting the call. Would just need a bench bat and I think they want him down there starting. Hermida might not be a choice either as he'd have to go through waivers to be sent back down I believe. Could be wrong.

Always Red
07-23-2011, 11:08 PM
I think Frazier can play 3B, LF, 1B and some 2B, but not SS.

Cairo can no longer play SS.

Janish will be back up tomorrow, IMO.

corkedbat
07-24-2011, 02:05 AM
Like it or not, Fister/League significantly upgrades a major weakness for the Reds. Plus they'd only basically require surplus from the Reds org which wouldn't preclude other deals (like for a bat for instance) that Walt might also make.

There's a straightforward rationale for why Walt might do something like this.

I've thought of that too jojo. Adding a guy like Fister could always free up another guy (like Wood or Bailey) for a deal like Jiminez or Shiels or a bat. For that matter, Walt could just turn around and flip Fister in just such a deal.

I'd love to know how many dollars the M's are gonna be willing to pony up for us to take him off their hands - my guess would be - not enough. He's still got this year and next on a 4-year $36M contract with a $9M option for 2013. They'd probably have to come up with half the remainder, throw in a couple of solid guys (Fister and maybe Legend or a solid prospect) and take a contract (Arroyo or Cordero?) off our hands, if it were me, Meaning they'd run when I called. :)

While I would love to add Beltran to the lineup, but I think this team needs a shakeup. It could take amonth os so for them to Jell, so no to any rentals. just don't see selling out for this year. Fill holes with guys that have a couple of years in the Reds contol and look to amke a strong run in 2012 & 13 (success this year would definitely be nice, but not the main objective). Don't waste resources that will be gone in two months with Zero chance of bringing them up. This team needs more than one piece to be a serious contender in the playoffs.

If the Reds were to acquire Ubaldo and Shields at the deadline now and maybe a young replacement for Rolen in the offseason, then I'd be all over a rental like Beltran. I'd probably be willing to overpay. Not now though, get the other spots firmed up with guys you caontol the next year or two (guys you might be able to extend) then go after the a super-rental.

Brutus
07-24-2011, 02:24 AM
Like it or not, Fister/League significantly upgrades a major weakness for the Reds. Plus they'd only basically require surplus from the Reds org which wouldn't preclude other deals (like for a bat for instance) that Walt might also make.


Wise man once predicted this:


My hunch is that you probably give Doug Fister a great deal more credit than you're giving Leake, despite being somewhat comparable pitcher. I suppose that's neither here nor there, but I imagine if Leake were a Mariner, the narrative would be slightly different despite your strong views on BIP-driven pitchers.

Currently, Leake has a solid career mark of 1.5 GB/FB. He's a kid that seems to have a clue what he's doing on the mound, and can afford to be more willing to be around the zone with nobody on base. It seems, then, he's able to adapt his pitching with runners on because he has an ability to induce groundballs. I think people are concentrating too much on the number of balls going into play and not enough on the ultimate results.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2402832&highlight=doug+fister#post2402832


Your hunch would be WRONG. Your guess is completely WRONG. Rather than wildly supposing that an opinion counter to yours can only be the result of bias, why not clarify your wild supposition with a PM? Because again, you're WRONG. And frankly, it's boorish.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89611&highlight=doug+fister&page=4

I should have played the stock market with my supposition. I would have made a fortune!

For the record, I'm not opposed to Fister. In fact, I would welcome that as a flier for a back-end boost.

Just hilarious how I had this one pegged from the get-go...

Patrick Bateman
07-24-2011, 03:00 AM
To me it looks like Jojo's opinions have stayed constant.

He was a fan of Fister to some degree and still is.

It's not like Jojo is suggesting that Fister replace Leake or something.

You haven't "pegged" anything that shows a change of justification and analysis then what it once was.

PuffyPig
07-24-2011, 03:07 AM
Pence would be fine if Reds could control him for awhile.

The problem with Pence is that he isn't very good and makes way too much money.

And based on his unreasoinably high BABIP. his production will likely go down and his salary will likely go up.

reds44
07-24-2011, 03:14 AM
The problem with Pence is that he isn't very good and makes way too much money.

And based on his unreasoinably high BABIP. his production will likely go down and his salary will likely go up.
He has a career .819 OPS and 118 OPS+. In what world is that not very good?

Caveat Emperor
07-24-2011, 11:36 AM
Doug Fister: Doesn't strike out many batters (K/9 of 5.17 for career), but doesn't shoot himself in the foot either via the dinger (HR/9 = .73) or the walk (BB/9 1.89)

He's not exactly a GB machine either, though -- strikes me as the kind of guy that benefits a lot from playing in a pitchers park like Safeco. Pass.

mbgrayson
07-24-2011, 12:10 PM
Doug Fister: Doesn't strike out many batters (K/9 of 5.17 for career), but doesn't shoot himself in the foot either via the dinger (HR/9 = .73) or the walk (BB/9 1.89)

He's not exactly a GB machine either, though -- strikes me as the kind of guy that benefits a lot from playing in a pitchers park like Safeco. Pass.

Agreed.

In 2011, Fister (http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/splits/_/id/30370/doug-fister)has only given up 2 HRs in 78 innings at home at SafeCo. On the road, he has given up 4 HRs in 61 innings.

However, in 2010, Fister gave up 9 HRs in 121 innings at SafeCo, and 4 HRs in 58 innings on the road.

If he moved to GABP, he would be swapping one of the best parks for pitchers on HRs for one of the worst.

Kc61
07-24-2011, 12:22 PM
Looking at my stats thread for today -

1. Reds starting staff has improved after demotions of Volquez and Wood. Currently, Cueto, Bailey, Leake, Willis (small sample) all holding their own.

Remaining problem spot is Arroyo at 5.56. If Bronson comes on strong, or if he is replaced by a 4.00 guy, big improvement. If he were replaced by a TOR guy, even better.

If Reds trade a Leake or a Bailey for a number 3, no real improvement.
If Reds replace Willis, could be improvement, but Willis' effectiveness currently unclear.
If Reds replace Arroyo or get improvement from Arroyo, that's where Reds can gain most.

2. Reds have a huge need offensively against RHP. Team's numbers are skewed by great success against LHP. Since usually you face RHP, the need is very substantial.

Reds need two things -

More left handed hitting overall. Three lefty hitters on entire club (among position players) is a very bad number. Just kills the Reds against RHP, which is usually.

A righty hitter to hit between Votto and Bruce - but someone who can hit BOTH types of pitching. Not a big split guy.

Those are the biggest needs.

jojo
07-24-2011, 12:30 PM
Doug Fister: Doesn't strike out many batters (K/9 of 5.17 for career), but doesn't shoot himself in the foot either via the dinger (HR/9 = .73) or the walk (BB/9 1.89)

He's not exactly a GB machine either, though -- strikes me as the kind of guy that benefits a lot from playing in a pitchers park like Safeco. Pass.

Doug Fister is a groundball pitcher with no problematic platoon splits whose career FIP/xFIP aren't noticeably affected by home/road splits. He is tracking to log at least 200 innings this year after 171 in 28 starts last year. Furthermore, his career FIP/xFIP (3.71/4.10) resemble that of a roughly league average starting pitcher in the NL over the last three seasons (4.07/4.01).

The Reds rotation is ranked last in the NL by FIP and second to last by xFIP.

Clearly Fister isn't sexy but given the Reds staff this season and their in house options for the rotation, Fister would represent a safe, tangible upgrade especially in front of the Reds defense and with being able to face pitchers. He also could be acquired in a relatively painless trade for the Reds. Happily, acquiring Fister wouldn't really impair the Reds ability to snag a "wow factor" upgrade.

Now if someone was arguing that Fister was an ace and he had a tremendous amount of trade value, that would be a different story. But clearly no one has argued let alone even suggested that (in this or in any other thread). At best someone in this thread has slotted him as a potential mid rotation guy for the Reds.

jojo
07-24-2011, 12:44 PM
I'd love to know how many dollars the M's are gonna be willing to pony up for us to take him off their hands - my guess would be - not enough. He's still got this year and next on a 4-year $36M contract with a $9M option for 2013. They'd probably have to come up with half the remainder, throw in a couple of solid guys (Fister and maybe Legend or a solid prospect) and take a contract (Arroyo or Cordero?) off our hands, if it were me, Meaning they'd run when I called. :)

I think you're referring to Figgins. At this point, I can't imagine Figgins being tradeabe. He literally is a wreck currently both offensively and defensively as he's went from being a solid league average player going into free agency (one could've reasonably expected 2.5 WAR as season as Seattle's contract suggested) to what might be the most expensive utility player in history.

I don't see how he fits well into the Reds roster based upon his current game.

757690
07-24-2011, 12:47 PM
Doug Fister is a groundball pitcher with no problematic platoon splits whose career FIP/xFIP aren't noticeably affected by home/road splits. He is tracking to log at least 200 innings this year after 171 in 28 starts last year. Furthermore, his career FIP/xFIP (3.71/4.10) resemble that of a roughly league average starting pitcher in the NL over the last three seasons (4.07/4.01).

The Reds rotation is ranked last in the NL by FIP and second to last by xFIP.

Clearly Fister isn't sexy but given the Reds staff this season and their in house options for the rotation, Fister would represent a safe, tangible upgrade especially in front of the Reds defense and with being able to face pitchers. He also could be acquired in a relatively painless trade for the Reds. Happily, acquiring Fister wouldn't really impair the Reds ability to snag a "wow factor" upgrade.

Now if someone was arguing that Fister was an ace and he had a tremendous amount of trade value, that would be a different story. But clearly no one has argued let alone even suggested that (in this or in any other thread). At best someone in this thread has slotted him as a potential mid rotation guy for the Reds.

I like Fister, but he's really only an upgrade over Willis, and only because we don't know how effective Willis will be going forward.

He might be an improvement over Arroyo, but only if Arroyo hits another bad streak. If he continues pitching like he has the last few games, Arroyo should be around as food as Fister in terms of number of good starts he'd provide the Reds going forward.

If Fister can be had for true excess talent (Maloney, Fisher, or Valaika types) then sure, but I wouldn't want to give much up for such a small improvement.

PuffyPig
07-24-2011, 12:48 PM
Figgins can't field nor hit but can play multiple infield and outfield positions.

A perfect match for Tony Larussa.

Tony just might adopt him.

Of course, he'd want to you him at SS, the one position he generally doesn't play.

corkedbat
07-24-2011, 01:33 PM
I think you're referring to Figgins. At this point, I can't imagine Figgins being tradeabe. He literally is a wreck currently both offensively and defensively as he's went from being a solid league average player going into free agency (one could've reasonably expected 2.5 WAR as season as Seattle's contract suggested) to what might be the most expensive utility player in history.

I don't see how he fits well into the Reds roster based upon his current game.

Neither can I, which is why all the persistent talk of the Reds looking at him and the M's playing him in LF really worries me. Last guy this team neeeds.

Brutus
07-24-2011, 01:35 PM
Neither can I, which is why all the persistent talk of the Reds looking at him and the M's playing him in LF really worries me. Last guy this team neeeds.

I think it was stated in one report that those rumors were mostly an attempt by the Mariners to try and build interest for Figgins, where likely none was to be found.

jojo
07-24-2011, 01:38 PM
Wise man once predicted this:



http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2402832&highlight=doug+fister#post2402832



http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89611&highlight=doug+fister&page=4

I should have played the stock market with my supposition. I would have made a fortune!

For the record, I'm not opposed to Fister. In fact, I would welcome that as a flier for a back-end boost.

Just hilarious how I had this one pegged from the get-go...

Basically the quoted post refers to a thread whose title stated Mike Leake would be an ace and where several posts within the thread were already characterizing Leake as an ace. My position in that thread was that Leake is not currently an ace, he has not demonstrated an ability to control his BABIP, and I would not give Fister a great deal more credit than I would Leake.

My position on Fister has been very consistent. He's no ace and does not command a great deal of trade value but he's a useful arm for a rotation because heís fairly safe having demonstrated some durability while putting up his numbers in a tougher league.

A trade for Fister/League/Kennedy has a straightforward rationale for the Reds. It wasnít presented as a blockbuster hypothetical but rather as a potential way that Walt could tangibly and fairly cheaply address weaknesses in the rotation (ranked last in the NL by FIP and second to last by xFIP), the pen (ranked 11th in the NL by FIP and 10th by xFIP), and provide versatile roster glue that could help stop gap Rolenís issues (Kennedy bats lefty and is roughly league average against RHed pitchers for his career).

Given I have neither argued that Fister was an ace nor that he had a tremendous amount of trade value (in this or in any other thread) and given the context of the hypothetical Fister trade proposal, the quoted post above is a pretty obvious mischaracterization of my position and it really isn't very hilarious.

corkedbat
07-24-2011, 02:58 PM
Basically the quoted post refers to a thread whose title stated Mike Leake would be an ace and where several posts within the thread were already characterizing Leake as an ace. My position in that thread was that Leake is not currently an ace, he has not demonstrated an ability to control his BABIP, and I would not give Fister a great deal more credit than I would Leake.

My position on Fister has been very consistent. He's no ace and does not command a great deal of trade value but he's a useful arm for a rotation because heís fairly safe having demonstrated some durability while putting up his numbers in a tougher league.

A trade for Fister/League/Kennedy has a straightforward rationale for the Reds. It wasnít presented as a blockbuster hypothetical but rather as a potential way that Walt could tangibly and fairly cheaply address weaknesses in the rotation (ranked last in the NL by FIP and second to last by xFIP), the pen (ranked 11th in the NL by FIP and 10th by xFIP), and provide versatile roster glue that could help stop gap Rolenís issues (Kennedy bats lefty and is roughly league average against RHed pitchers for his career).

Given I have neither argued that Fister was an ace nor that he had a tremendous amount of trade value (in this or in any other thread) and given the context of the hypothetical Fister trade proposal, the quoted post above is a pretty obvious mischaracterization of my position and it really isn't very hilarious.

If you can get Fister for lesser pieces, i'd highly consider it.

If you have four young starters (Bailey, Leake, Wood and Volquez/and you are are willing to deal two to help acquire Jiminez and/or Shields and/or a bat, then maybe you have three to deal if you add Fister.

The one thing I don't worry is the "we already have that" argument when acquiring talent - especially if chances are good we are looking to make more than one deal.

Even though we has Mes and Grandall (in addition to Ramon and Hanny) and really don't need catching, if fors ome reason the Yanks were to for some reason offer Montero in a deal, I'd be all over it. Why? because I'd be certanI could deal him (or Mes or Grandal) to anothe team desperate for catching. i've always believed that when acquiring young talent, quality trumps need everytime. If you have quality surpluses at certain spots, you have solutions at spots where you have needs.

Kc61
07-24-2011, 03:07 PM
A move for Fister only makes sense if the Reds jettison Arroyo or if the Reds don't really want to keep Willis.

I don't see the advantage of Fister over Cueto, Bailey, or Leake.

You can argue he is more experienced and has a better track record. But Fister pitches in a very forgiving stadium. I think it is a real risk to bring him to Cincy and expect success.

I can understand it if the Reds are convinced Arroyo is done. He has a 5.56 ERA. If they somehow trade off Arroyo and get Fister, it makes some sense.

I can also understand it if the Reds aren't confident in Dontrelle as fifth starter and would prefer Fister.

But even as a replacement for Arroyo or Willis, I'm skeptical because pitching in Cincy will be a whole different experience for this pitcher.

I would pass. My own view on starting pitching is that the Reds need a TOR guy. If they can't make a deal for a TOR guy, they should pass on starting pitching this deadline and go for hitting.

And - I wouldn't acquire Fister to stockpile for future trades. Trades are hard to make. Make them for assets that are needed, not for additional trade bait.

Will M
07-24-2011, 03:47 PM
Looking at my stats thread for today -

1. Reds starting staff has improved after demotions of Volquez and Wood. Currently, Cueto, Bailey, Leake, Willis (small sample) all holding their own.

Remaining problem spot is Arroyo at 5.56. If Bronson comes on strong, or if he is replaced by a 4.00 guy, big improvement. If he were replaced by a TOR guy, even better.

If Reds trade a Leake or a Bailey for a number 3, no real improvement.
If Reds replace Willis, could be improvement, but Willis' effectiveness currently unclear.
If Reds replace Arroyo or get improvement from Arroyo, that's where Reds can gain most.

2. Reds have a huge need offensively against RHP. Team's numbers are skewed by great success against LHP. Since usually you face RHP, the need is very substantial.

Reds need two things -

More left handed hitting overall. Three lefty hitters on entire club (among position players) is a very bad number. Just kills the Reds against RHP, which is usually.

A righty hitter to hit between Votto and Bruce - but someone who can hit BOTH types of pitching. Not a big split guy.

Those are the biggest needs.

how about this...
1) get an ace who is signed beyond this year.
2) DL Arroyo and see if he gets better with a couple of weeks of rest. use Willis in his spot
3) get someone who hits left handed and can play 3B plus. Adam Kennedy (cheap), Headley, Daniel Murphy etc. use as a job share at 3B and elsewhere since Frazier and several of the guys listed can also play elsewhere
4) get a LH platoon bat to pair with Jonny
5) get another 8th/9th inning reliever

of all of those getting the ace is tough but the others are reasonable. i would love to have a monster bat for LF but if the price is high a platoon may be more feasable.

oh one more thing. Walt can start anytime now. all we see is smoke. i am prepared to be disappointed this time next Monday.

BearcatShane
07-24-2011, 03:56 PM
Why would the Mariners even want to trade Fister?

Will M
07-24-2011, 04:24 PM
ESPN reports that at least four teams are "zeroing in" on trading for Kosuke Fukudome.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Cubs would pay some of his salary. wouldn't take much. he'd be an improvement in LF (Fukudome/Gomes platoon as opposed to the 3 way job share we have now)

RANDY IN INDY
07-24-2011, 04:49 PM
ESPN reports that at least four teams are "zeroing in" on trading for Kosuke Fukudome.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Cubs would pay some of his salary. wouldn't take much. he'd be an improvement in LF (Fukudome/Gomes platoon as opposed to the 3 way job share we have now)

Yuk.

Caveat Emperor
07-24-2011, 06:49 PM
Why would the Mariners even want to trade Fister?

Because the best way to compete on a limited payroll is to bring in a lot of minor league talent and hope that you can get a lot of people on the same timetable for the bigs. A decent pitcher on a crap team going nowhere does the Mariners no good -- and Fister doesn't seem like a centerpiece you build around. Jettison him for prospects and try to build a team.

Someone always is willing to overpay for pitching. I just don't want the Reds to be that team.

mth123
07-24-2011, 07:55 PM
The value in dealing for Fister is that it sets up a ton of flexability. Willis can go to the pen with Lecure and the team is covered if Bailey goes down and/or Leake needs to be shut down for innings reasons. Having that in place allows the Reds to freely dscuss Wood and/or Volquez in any deal. Right now the Reds need to seriously consider keeping them around in reserve since the rotation has still got some question marks in it.

Mario-Rijo
07-24-2011, 08:23 PM
Doug Fister? Maybe in a 3 way deal but I don't see him making any real difference. I'd rather have Melky Cabrera. If they don't go after Beltran strong (but not something ridiculous mind you) then they ought to be skinned. They need a bat right? They need a LH bat right and they need a RH bat with pop to sit between the LHH's. Beltran is all of that. And although he hasn't been great this season vs. LHP (.291 OBP) he is slugging well from that side (.547). As for RHP well he has a .968 OPS against. He isn't ideal perse' because he is gonna cost a good young arm and there is a fairly decent risk of injury with him but who else is there? He is the only guy who gives this offense a chance that is available that I know of. The pitchers are nice but it seems as though we don't have much of a shot at them without emptying the farm. If you want to improve go snatch Beltran from the Mets. Without him they may as well just sit tight (making a smaller bench move) & hope that the Reds trend of hitting better after July happens and in a big way.

They can actually still win this division without a big acquisition but they can't do it not hitting better.

Mario-Rijo
07-24-2011, 08:24 PM
The value in dealing for Fister is that it sets up a ton of flexability. Willis can go to the pen with Lecure and the team is covered if Bailey goes down and/or Leake needs to be shut down for innings reasons. Having that in place allows the Reds to freely dscuss Wood and/or Volquez in any deal. Right now the Reds need to seriously consider keeping them around in reserve since the rotation has still got some question marks in it.

Then you do it after you make a deal with Wood or Volquez involved, IMO.

mth123
07-24-2011, 08:28 PM
Then you do it after you make a deal with Wood or Volquez involved, IMO.

If you're dealing them for a better starter, then you don't need Fister. But I don't deal them for a bat unless I've got another starter to fall back on.

Mario-Rijo
07-24-2011, 08:34 PM
If you're dealing them for a better starter, then you don't need Fister. But I don't deal them for a bat unless I've got another starter to fall back on.

I'd take that gamble, I think we have enough to make it. Well if Wood is indeed on the block anyway, personally I still like him. He just has to work on keeping the ball down IMO.

Sabo Fan
07-24-2011, 08:46 PM
So we've all heard the rumors about the Reds being interested in James Shields (who I happen to prefer to Ubaldo for cost reasons), but now the Rays are apparently putting B.J. Upton on the market. So how about a deal for both Upton and Shields? In one move the LF and starting rotation issues are solved. It also provides the kind of roster shakeup that I think this team desperatly needs.

No doubt it would take quite the package, but I still think Upton is a rare talent and definitely worth going after. Start with Wood, Alonso and the promise of Grandal when he's eligible as a PTBNL and see how far that gets you. Obviously more will need to be given up on the Reds end but it's a place to start. Maybe one of the talented young Dragons outfielders strikes the Rays fancy. Regardless, I like that idea a whole lot better than getting in a bidding war for a rental of Carlos Beltran.

mattfeet
07-24-2011, 08:48 PM
I was just wondering about that myself. That'd be a sick 1-2 punch.

-Matt

Brutus
07-24-2011, 08:51 PM
So we've all heard the rumors about the Reds being interested in James Shields (who I happen to prefer to Ubaldo for cost reasons), but now the Rays are apparently putting B.J. Upton on the market. So how about a deal for both Upton and Shields? In one move the LF and starting rotation issues are solved. It also provides the kind of roster shakeup that I think this team desperatly needs.

No doubt it would take quite the package, but I still think Upton is a rare talent and definitely worth going after. Start with Wood, Alonso and the promise of Grandal when he's eligible as a PTBNL and see how far that gets you. Obviously more will need to be given up on the Reds end but it's a place to start. Maybe one of the talented young Dragons outfielders strikes the Rays fancy. Regardless, I like that idea a whole lot better than getting in a bidding war for a rental of Carlos Beltran.

It's be perfect, but my mantra is: won't happen. Teams won't package those kinds of players together. Few teams have the resources to acquire such players simultaneously, and while the Reds might, they won't bankrupt their upper minors to do so.

Make no mistake, it would be perfectly suited to the Reds' needs, but if the Rays trade both, they won't be in the same deal.