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corkedbat
07-21-2011, 03:39 PM
Not earth-shattering, but alot considering its coming from Walt - does raise my hopes that at least one major deal will get done.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110721&content_id=22103692&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb

REDREAD
07-21-2011, 03:55 PM
I like this response


I'm not going to be specific about guys, but I'd prefer guys who are under contract for a while," Jocketty said. "I'm not sure anything will develop. We're trying to win this year, but we want to stay full of talent so we know we can compete for years to come."


Sounds like he is going after targets that other clubs are going to be very reluctant to move, and that's why it's so difficult to get something done.
Hopefully he can pull something off.

corkedbat
07-21-2011, 04:31 PM
I like this response



Sounds like he is going after targets that other clubs are going to be very reluctant to move, and that's why it's so difficult to get something done.
Hopefully he can pull something off.

I liked that too. No rentals unless there's a decent chance to re-up them after the season.

The Operator
07-21-2011, 04:47 PM
James Shields and Ubaldo Jiminez, two guys The Reds have been linked to recently - would either one fit that description.

Interesting.

dougdirt
07-21-2011, 04:49 PM
I liked that too. No rentals unless there's a decent chance to re-up them after the season.

Guys who give a chance to re-up after the season aren't the types of guys you want to be adding. Guys who are going to test free agency are the difference makers, not the platoon bench guys. Or get guys with years on their deal.

corkedbat
07-21-2011, 05:53 PM
Guys who give a chance to re-up after the season aren't the types of guys you want to be adding. Guys who are going to test free agency are the difference makers, not the platoon bench guys. Or get guys with years on their deal.

Yeah, but those are the guys I'm not giving up boatloads of talent for two months work. I would not rule out rentals, but I would get them at my price or pass. Even then, only if it gives me a solid chance of winning a playoff series (and I haven't seen any potential rentals who would fit that bill for the Reds).

Kc61
07-21-2011, 05:59 PM
No rentals, except for players acquired at minor cost.

This team is a long shot. Don't mortgage the future for a long-shot chance at success this year.

Not Beltran. Nobody.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-21-2011, 06:15 PM
No rentals, except for players acquired at minor cost.

This team is a long shot. Don't mortgage the future for a long-shot chance at success this year.

Not Beltran. Nobody.

Beltran or not, this team is still going to have to address LF at some point, whether it's this week or in the offseason (yeah right). Simply put, the trio playing there this summer just won't cut it in 2012 if the Reds expect to return to the playoffs again during this relatively small "window of opportunity" that exists while Joey Votto is here.

Someone's gonna have to get paid to play left next year, unless you want to entrust it to a AAA unknown. And since another glaring weakness is the complete lack of production from the cleanup spot (and the unlikelyhood of Scott Rolen effectively batting there again in 2012), the opportunity is obvious to kill two birds with one stone.

Kc61
07-21-2011, 06:21 PM
Beltran or not, this team is still going to have to address LF at some point, whether it's this week or in the offseason (yeah right). Simply put, the trio playing there this summer just won't cut it in 2012 if the Reds expect to return to the playoffs again during this "window of opportunity" that exists while Joey Votto is here.

Someone's gonna have to get paid to play left next year, unless you want to entrust it to a AAA unknown.

Forgive me, maybe I wasn't clear.

Beltran is a rental. He is a Boras client. His contract forbids his team from offering him arbitration. He will be a free agent next winter, for sure.

I want to solidify left field too. But not by acquiring Beltran or any other 2011 rental.

I don't want to give up the wealth of organizational talent on the quixotic dream that the Reds can overcome the Brewers, Cards, and Bucs this season.

Yes it's a possibility, but it is remote.

Reds should go after signed players, guys who they can control for awhile.

And, of course, they can acquire rentals - or anyone - who costs very little in return.

mdccclxix
07-21-2011, 06:24 PM
Would 8-2 on the strength of starting pitching change your mind?

Brutus
07-21-2011, 06:27 PM
Forgive me, maybe I wasn't clear.

Beltran is a rental. He is a Boras client. His contract forbids his team from offering him arbitration. He will be a free agent next winter, for sure.

I want to solidify left field too. But not by acquiring Beltran or any other 2011 rental.

I don't want to give up the wealth of organizational talent on the quixotic dream that the Reds can overcome the Brewers, Cards, and Bucs this season.

Yes it's a possibility, but it is remote.

Reds should go after signed players, guys who they can control for awhile.

And, of course, they can acquire rentals - or anyone - who costs very little in return.

The arbitration clause isn't very meaningful. It means a team cannot get a draft pick out of him, as they can't offer it and then he can't turn it down because it wasn't offered, but it doesn't impact whether he'd elect to go to free agency, as teams have an exclusive negotiating period before free agency and long before the deadline to offer arbitration anyhow. And even if they could offer arbitration, he could simply decline.

That said, I don't think anyone has any illusions that Beltran wouldn't test the free agent market. He most certainly would, as 95% of Boras clients typically do. But the arbitration clause doesn't impact his ability to become a free agent.

Slyder
07-21-2011, 08:30 PM
The arbitration clause isn't very meaningful. It means a team cannot get a draft pick out of him, as they can't offer it and then he can't turn it down because it wasn't offered, but it doesn't impact whether he'd elect to go to free agency, as teams have an exclusive negotiating period before free agency and long before the deadline to offer arbitration anyhow. And even if they could offer arbitration, he could simply decline.

That said, I don't think anyone has any illusions that Beltran wouldn't test the free agent market. He most certainly would, as 95% of Boras clients typically do. But the arbitration clause doesn't impact his ability to become a free agent.

If he were to accept isn't arbitration setup so that said player cannot make less than like 95% of what he made the previous year or is that just guys who are within 6 years since Beltran per say wouldn't have a contract?

Brutus
07-21-2011, 10:12 PM
If he were to accept isn't arbitration setup so that said player cannot make less than like 95% of what he made the previous year or is that just guys who are within 6 years since Beltran per say wouldn't have a contract?

Correct. It's 80%, but it's for players under reserve (through the first six years of service) until they reach free agency, so Beltran would not apply.

Since players don't really have any say in their salaries from year to year, until arbitration, it's to keep the club from tendering a new contract for much less.

For instance, say a club gives a guy $500,000 for his second full season. The player had really no recourse to ask for more, as he has to agree to that deal. The next season, the club could not pay total compensation less than $400,000 in the majors (which is less than league minimum now anyhow) or 60% of $500k in total compensation between the majors and minors if there's a split rate of pay.

Caveat Emperor
07-21-2011, 11:04 PM
Walt may say they're buyers, but we're talking about a team that hasn't made a truly "blockbuster" acquisition since Ken Griffey Jr. over a decade ago.

I highly doubt the Reds acquire anyone of note this season.

Brutus
07-21-2011, 11:09 PM
Walt may say they're buyers, but we're talking about a team that hasn't made a truly "blockbuster" acquisition since Ken Griffey Jr. over a decade ago.

I highly doubt the Reds acquire anyone of note this season.

How many teams truly get to make a blockbuster acquisition? Probably less than a quarter?

In order to make such an acquisition in this day and age, you either have to have $100 million plus to spend in free agency or you need to be willing to give up your top prospect(s) for a 2-month rental, at least generally speaking.

Caveat Emperor
07-21-2011, 11:28 PM
How many teams truly get to make a blockbuster acquisition? Probably less than a quarter?

In order to make such an acquisition in this day and age, you either have to have $100 million plus to spend in free agency or you need to be willing to give up your top prospect(s) for a 2-month rental, at least generally speaking.

Which is exactly why I expect the Reds to nibble around the edges and get a bench / platoon bat or do nothing at all.

Brutus
07-21-2011, 11:35 PM
Which is exactly why I expect the Reds to nibble around the edges and get a bench / platoon bat or do nothing at all.

Fair enough. I would consider James Shields a blockbuster trade though. And since they have both the resources and circumstances available to them to make it happen, while I'm being cautiously optimistic, I think it's very possible it goes down.

GAC
07-22-2011, 04:09 AM
This really stood out from the article...


Getting a pitcher like Jimenez or Shields wouldn't help if the Reds' lineup can't score for them. Don't discount the possibility that offensive help could be brought in. The Reds have uncertainty in left field and at the leadoff spot.

I'd go for Shields, but where has TB even indicated he was available? They are a nice fit since they are looking for help at C and 1B, but you've got a solid young pitcher under a nice (affordable) contract for the next 3 years (club options = 28M). With that kind of combination, IMO, it's not going to come easy. I bet they'd demand Mesoraco in any package because he's ready, while Grandal is still a couple years away.

corkedbat
07-22-2011, 05:45 AM
This really stood out from the article...



I'd go for Shields, but where has TB even indicated he was available? They are a nice fit since they are looking for help at C and 1B, but you've got a solid young pitcher under a nice (affordable) contract for the next 3 years (club options = 28M). With that kind of combination, IMO, it's not going to come easy. I bet they'd demand Mesoraco in any package because he's ready, while Grandal is still a couple years away.


ive gone on record as saying Im against dealing Mes or Grandal. If it will help land a solid starter like Shields and make more chips availble for a Jiminez deal too, Id probably give in on Grandal, but not Mes. Not sure if/how a PBTNL with Yasmani would be doable though. Grandal and Yonder should be near enough for Shields since they are both Hispanic and played at the U.

I might even try and expand it to include Alex Cobb or Matt Joyce (Pipedream). Anyone interested in the other Upton? Maybe a 3B blocked by Longoria? Dan Johnson or Russ Carter?

Mario-Rijo
07-22-2011, 05:53 AM
My optimistic side feels like Walt seems awful serious for a change here. My pessimistic side is saying this is a message meant for both the players and fans but mostly for the players. He's hoping to see the team achieve up to standards so he can then say well we tried but couldn't find a match but I think we are ok (cites recent string of success). It's a gamble because if they don't start winning he might have to do something I don't believe he wants to do, take on some degree of money.

With Walt my pessimistic side is basically undefeated.

corkedbat
07-22-2011, 06:02 AM
My optimistic side feels like Walt seems awful serious for a change here. My pessimistic side is saying this is a message meant for both the players and fans but mostly for the players. He's hoping to see the team achieve up to standards so he can then say well we tried but couldn't find a match but I think we are ok (cites recent string of success). It's a gamble because if they don't start winning he might have to do something I don't believe he wants to do, take on some degree of money.

With Walt my pessimistic side is basically undefeated.

I hear ya, M-R. I'm getting all of my optomism out of the way now so there wont be any left to dash when the deadline passes with no deals. :D

Like my Grandaddy always said, "Pessimism means youre never disappointed (and sometimes pleasantly surprise)."

REDREAD
07-22-2011, 09:53 AM
Walt may say they're buyers, but we're talking about a team that hasn't made a truly "blockbuster" acquisition since Ken Griffey Jr. over a decade ago.

I highly doubt the Reds acquire anyone of note this season.

Rolen counts as a blockbuster, IMO.
I can see if you don't agree though, not trying to argue.
There's a good chance no trades are made at the deadline, since Walt is targeting players that the Reds can control for several years.

I think most of us agree that realistically, even if we did pick up Beltran and Jimmeniz, we have a tough path to winning the division. Not impossible, but challenging. So I don't mind the focus being on a player that can help us from 2011-2013.