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Krusty
07-22-2011, 12:29 AM
Wandy Rodriguez and Hunter Pence to the Reds for Edison Volquez, Yonder Alonso, Todd Frazier and Paul Janish.

Think it would work?

Tom Servo
07-22-2011, 12:30 AM
That would be a terrible deal for Houston.

Caveat Emperor
07-22-2011, 12:33 AM
Ed Wade would be committed by family members if he agreed to that kind of deal -- provided he wasn't shot on the way to his car by a group of angry fans.

camisadelgolf
07-22-2011, 12:33 AM
Look at it like this: Hunter Pence is Houston's Jay Bruce. He's a guy they want to build the team around and not someone they want to trade for prospects. Houston already has a Paul Janish in Tommy Manzella. They already have a Yonder Alonso in Brett Wallace. And Edinson Volquez is practically a throw-in at this stage in his career. This trade proposal makes absolutely no sense for Houston.

Brutus
07-22-2011, 12:33 AM
That's a bad fantasy baseball trade.

Krusty
07-22-2011, 12:35 AM
If you offered Heisey, Volquez, Frazier and Alonso for Rodriguez and Pence, that would work?

Brutus
07-22-2011, 12:38 AM
Typically teams won't trade their two best players in the same trade if they're even willing to trade them both. You'd get much, much more by trading them separately than together.

Red Leader
07-22-2011, 12:41 AM
Typically teams won't trade their two best players in the same trade if they're even willing to trade them both. You'd get much, much more by trading them separately than together.

True dat.

Also, if the Astros traded Rodriguez and Pence for Heisey, Volquez, Frazier and Alonso they might not win more than 20 games the remainder of the season. That's a really, really bad deal for Houston. Like so bad I don't think it'd even be considered.

oneupper
07-22-2011, 12:42 AM
Houston does that deal if you take Carlos Lee also.

jojo
07-22-2011, 12:42 AM
Wandy Rodriguez and Hunter Pence to the Reds for Edison Volquez, Yonder Alonso, Todd Frazier and Paul Janish.

Think it would work?

I think Houston would want alot more.

Spitball
07-22-2011, 12:49 AM
Krusty, I thought you always called them "slobberknockers." That was more fun. :)

Krusty
07-22-2011, 01:07 AM
The Reds would have control of both players beyond this season. With Stubbs and Bruce set in the outfielder, any outfield prospect at Triple A should be made available in trade for Pence. As for Rodriguez, Volquez and another pitching prospect would be a fair deal because Volquez is needed a ticket out of town and a change of scenery.

Find out who is Rolen's successor and keep him. Make everyone else available. Keep one of the two catching prospects especially with Hanigan signed for two more years. Make the other one available.

Bill Bergesch once said he was reluctant to trade the crown jewels and got him fired as GM. It took the Stillwell for Jackson deal to get the Reds to the World Series. Fast forward and Jocketty needs to realize you can't keep all the crown jewels. Trade the excess and get those key players to get you in the playoffs. To have control over them beyond this season is an added plus.

Mario-Rijo
07-22-2011, 06:23 AM
Look at it like this: Hunter Pence is Houston's Jay Bruce. He's a guy they want to build the team around and not someone they want to trade for prospects. Houston already has a Paul Janish in Tommy Manzella. They already have a Yonder Alonso in Brett Wallace. And Edinson Volquez is practically a throw-in at this stage in his career. This trade proposal makes absolutely no sense for Houston.

He may be Houston's Bruce but he ain't quite that good a player IMO, he certainly isn't as naturally talented so his ceiling isn't close. IMO he is as close or closer to Chris Heisey than Bruce. In fact I think we know Pence's ceiling and Heisey's may actually be higher as well. He is no doubt a more productive player right now and Heisey has a way to go yet but still..

But I do agree with your point it's not enough. We also need to remember that Ed Wade is a sucker for 5 toolers with monster ceilings. We'd probably get more mileage out of Hamilton and Yorman and the like. But for me Wandy and Pence would be down my list a few spots from ideal right now, so I'd wait and see what else I could do.

camisadelgolf
07-22-2011, 06:52 AM
He may be Houston's Bruce but he ain't quite that good a player IMO, he certainly isn't as naturally talented so his ceiling isn't close. IMO he is as close or closer to Chris Heisey than Bruce. In fact I think we know Pence's ceiling and Heisey's may actually be higher as well. He is no doubt a more productive player right now and Heisey has a way to go yet but still..

But I do agree with your point it's not enough. We also need to remember that Ed Wade is a sucker for 5 toolers with monster ceilings. We'd probably get more mileage out of Hamilton and Yorman and the like. But for me Wandy and Pence would be down my list a few spots from ideal right now, so I'd wait and see what else I could do.
I would say Bruce has the higher ceiling, and I would much rather have him over Pence moving forward, but other than home runs, Pence has outproduced Bruce on average in pretty much every way. I think you're either underestimating Pence's worth or overestimating Bruce's.

Mario-Rijo
07-22-2011, 07:12 AM
I would say Bruce has the higher ceiling, and I would much rather have him over Pence moving forward, but other than home runs, Pence has outproduced Bruce on average in pretty much every way. I think you're either underestimating Pence's worth or overestimating Bruce's.

I don't believe Pence can hang on the defensive side and Bruce is an excellent baserunner (and the SB's aren't vastly different either even though Pence is speedier). Pence's arm is nothing special and Bruce's is a difference making arm, Pence may get to a few more balls but I don't think it's a big enough difference to make up for the arm. Beyond that all that is left is Pence hits for average better (.291 vs. .259) and their career OBP is but .08 difference and Pence has been in his prime for about 2-2 1/2 years now. I don't see that is close at all. Add in the fact Bruce still hasn't gotten close to 600 PA's but one time and Pence has 3 times, that's a big difference maker right there.

Defense: Bruce > Pence
Baserunning: Bruce = Pence (despite Jay having less speed this is close)
Batting Average: Pence > Bruce
Power: Bruce > Pence (even though Pence actually has more Homers at this point I think we know this without a doubt)
Discipline: Bruce > Pence

Power arm and Power bat set Jay apart and he'll outproduce Pence at the same ages IMO.

Griffey012
07-22-2011, 08:09 AM
If you offered Heisey, Volquez, Frazier and Alonso for Rodriguez and Pence, that would work?

Try more along the lines of Wood/Bailey, Grandal, Hamilton, and another relatively highly regarded prospect depending on whether they want more pitching or hitting.

_Sir_Charles_
07-22-2011, 08:50 AM
Look at it like this: Hunter Pence is Houston's Jay Bruce. He's a guy they want to build the team around and not someone they want to trade for prospects. Houston already has a Paul Janish in Tommy Manzella. They already have a Yonder Alonso in Brett Wallace. And Edinson Volquez is practically a throw-in at this stage in his career. This trade proposal makes absolutely no sense for Houston.

You basically said exactly what I was going to. Janish & Yonder are totally unneeded parts there. They could use Frazier, and considering their rotation & Farm system...Volquez might appeal to them...but not over Wandy.

_Sir_Charles_
07-22-2011, 08:52 AM
Try more along the lines of Wood/Bailey, Grandal, Hamilton, and another relatively highly regarded prospect depending on whether they want more pitching or hitting.

They also don't need a catcher. Their best prospect is Jason Castro.

They need a LF, 2b, SS and pitching. But most of all, they need to restock the farm system. I do think we could snag both those guys, but it'll take one mlb ready player from one of those positions I listed above AND a lot of middle to lower level minor league guys with decent upside. They'll want quantity.

danforsman
07-22-2011, 09:47 AM
If I was targeting Astro OFs, I would target Michael Bourn.

_Sir_Charles_
07-22-2011, 09:49 AM
If I was targeting Astro OFs, I would target Michael Bourn.

Bourn is not going ANYWHERE. The Astros love him and he's pretty much their lone untouchable.

That's if they were to have an "untouchable".

Dan
07-22-2011, 10:00 AM
Since we're going for hypothetical, will-never-happen slobber-knockers, how about this one:

Blue Jays get:
Joey Votto
Jonathan Sanchez

Giants get:
Edison Volquez
Ramon Hernandez

Reds get:
Adam Lind
Brett Lawrie
Eric Thames
Adam Duvall

Then:
Alonso/Grandal to Tampa for Sheilds

Next year's lineup would be:
3b Lawrie
LF Thames
2b Phillips
1b Lind
C Mesoraco
RF Bruce
SS Cozart
CF Stubbs

Rotation:
Cueto
Leake
Shields
Arroyo/Bailey/Willis/Wood/et al

traderumor
07-22-2011, 10:05 AM
I think many Houston fans find the team worth watching at all for Hunter Pence. He ain't going nowhere. If I'm looking at Houston, I might try to strengthen the middle of our rotation with someone like Bud Norris, who could probably be had for a couple of prospects at this stage.

WVRed
07-22-2011, 11:15 AM
If we're dealing for Hunter Pence, Jay Bruce would have to be involved at some level. Add in the fact that its a division rival, it's not happening.

Another thing to consider, Volquez value is at rock bottom. Someone may take a chance on him, but nobody is going to fork over a Wandy Rodriguez or Ubaldo Jimenez for him.