Worst Dusty/Stubbs quotes yet...

[Wheelhouse]

I'm so worried tonight's walk-off will equate to bushels of hideous at bats and K's for Stubbs and an ongoing lousy OBP. Dusty's quote re-affirms his aversion to walks with a new flourish of stupidity:

From The Enquirer:
“At that time of the game, you’re just looking to do anything you can,” Stubbs said. “When relievers come in, you’re not trying to work on pitch counts or anything like that.”

The Reds, who also beat Atlanta on Saturday, have won two consecutive games for the first time since a three-game sweep of the Dodgers (at Dodger Stadium) from June 13-15.

Francisco Cordero (4-3) was the winner in relief.

While Stubbs is the major league leader in strikeouts (130), he also has 13 homers and 25 steals.

“People are always saying to get deep in the count and take pitches, but why take pitches if it’s going to be a good pitch to hit?” Reds manager Dusty Baker said. “Attack and be aggressive.”

[Tom Servo]

Yeah how dare Stubbs hit a walk-off homerun.

[camisadelgolf]

People criticize Stubbs nonstop for all his strikeouts, and now when he swings early in a count to make contact, he's going to get criticized for that, too? And if you think that's the dumbest Dusty Baker quote yet, I don't think you've been paying too much attention. :lol:

[reds44]

Stubbs swinging early in the count can only be a good thing. Him with 2 strikes is a nightmare.

[Wheelhouse]

My worry is that this walk-off will be somehow a justification in Stubbs' mind for his approach. Isn't this board always wary of "small sample size" in evaluating a player? I'd say the one at bat with a positive outcome tonight is a prime example of a small sample size. Stubbs defenders somehow feel vindicated. The home run does not justify the poor approach, unprofessional at bats, and meager results over the course of this season. I may not have the dumbest Dusty quote, but it's darn near!

[Patrick Bateman]

I actually think they are fair quotes.

Why would a K hitter like Stubbs want to get behind 0-1 late in the game.
Usually leads to an easy out for him.

Don't let pitches down the middle go for strikes. If it's a pitch he feels he can drive, go for it (tonight was a little odd since it appeared that he swung at a ball). Not an overall awful strategy as long as he is selective as to what he considers a good pitch to hit.

[reds44]

My worry is that this walk-off will be somehow a justification in Stubbs' mind for his approach. Isn't this board always wary of "small sample size" in evaluating a player? I'd say the one at bat with a positive outcome tonight is a prime example of a small sample size. Stubbs defenders somehow feel vindicated. The home run does not justify the poor approach, unprofessional at bats, and meager results over the course of this season. I may not have the dumbest Dusty quote, but it's darn near!
Just take a look at some of these OPS and K numbers for Stubbs in certain situations in the count.

After 0-1 .585, 91
0-2: .031, 26 Ks
After 0-2 .355, 51 K
1-2: .618, 67 k
After 1-2: .478, 77 K
2-2: .380, 38 K
After 2-2: .465, 58 K

Stubbs behind in the count or with 2 strikes is absolutely terrible. Now with that being said, I would say just about every hitter in baseball is better when they're hitting ahead in the count. That's pretty much the point of hitting.

Compare that to his 1.327 OPS when putting the first pitch in play. Even in an 0-1 count his OPS is 1.025.

It's not really as bad as it sounds. All Dusty and Drew are saying is if he gets a first pitch he can handle, to take a rip. He's awful behind in the count, so don't allow yourself to get behind.

[GAC]

“People are always saying to get deep in the count and take pitches, but why take pitches if it’s going to be a good pitch to hit?” Reds manager Dusty Baker said. “Attack and be aggressive.”

People have a problem with this remark? I don't. He's not taking about getting up there flailing away, but pitch recognition. Getting a good pitch to hit. That is why you carry a bat to the box with you.

I get just as upset at a batter who takes good pitches in the zone as I am with someone whose up there swinging away at anything. Now that doesn't mean never to take a good pitch. Depends on the count and if a pitcher is struggling with control, there are other variables to consider obviously.

But your objective when in that batter's box is to recognize that good pitch and go after it.

[dougdirt]

I have been saying that Drew Stubbs should be more aggressive at the plate for 4 years now. I still think he does. It isn't about swinging at bad pitches, but I think that he takes too many good pitches early on in an effort to either "work the count" or to "wait for a better pitch". For some guys, I am ok with that approach. But Stubbs has some of the worst contact rates in all of baseball, so he shouldn't look at hittable strikes. I don't have an issue with either of the quotes at hand as long as they aren't being translated to "swing at the first pitch no matter what", and I don't think either Dusty or Stubbs would ever go for such a policy.

[mth123]

Plate discipline isn't about taking pitches, getting walks or even working the count for its own sake. Those are simply some of the benefits of having plate discipline. Plate discipline is only doing the two simple things that have been the hitters objective for well over 100 years:

1. Don't swing at pitches that aren't good pitches to hit.
2. Murder ones that are (no matter when in the count they come).

As Babe Ruth said (its in my sig) "Pick a good one and sock it."

[icehole3]

my biggest complaint is the lack of bunt attempts by Stubbs

[Wheelhouse]

my biggest complaint is the lack of bunt attempts by Stubbs

You won't see any from now on. The good thing is, the Reds won't have to worry about cooling fans at the games; Stubbs whiffs will do it.

[Strikes Out Looking]

I wouldn't call the problem with Stubbs a lack of plate discipline -- I think its a lack of plate preparedness. In other words, when facing a pitcher, he isn't usually ready to swing as soon as he gets to the plate --even if the pitcher is a first strike pitcher.

In fact, I think this is the entire Reds team problem; they fail to adjust to whom they are batting against. You also see it when they are facing someone who is having a hard time finding home plate -- how many times do they have a rally going on walks when someone comes and swings at a bad first pitch only to pop it up. I call this plate preparedness, and this, I believe is the Reds problem most of the time.

[Redlegs]

Reliever came in and wanted to get ahead in the count. Huge part of the game for a pitcher. Stubbs was on him and what was impressive was he took him the other way. As far as Dusty's quote; I have no problem with it. In fact, I agree with him.

[Redlegs]

You won't see any from now on. The good thing is, the Reds won't have to worry about cooling fans at the games; Stubbs whiffs will do it.

It almost sounds like you want Stubbs to fail. I think he'll eventually be an all-star calibar player. All he needs to do is cut down on his K's. That can be accomplished by cutting down his swing with two strikes.

[Caveat Emperor]

Sometimes the best pitch you see in an AB is the first pitch.

Is it great to put together a 10 pitch AB that really wears down an opposing pitcher? Absolutely. But, the goal is to acquire base-hits and score runs. If your best chance to do that comes on a 0-0 pitch, swing away.

[GADawg]

if i was a big leaguer I'd lay awake at night and dream of the "get-ahead" fastball

[redsmetz]

My worry is that this walk-off will be somehow a justification in Stubbs' mind for his approach. Isn't this board always wary of "small sample size" in evaluating a player? I'd say the one at bat with a positive outcome tonight is a prime example of a small sample size. Stubbs defenders somehow feel vindicated. The home run does not justify the poor approach, unprofessional at bats, and meager results over the course of this season. I may not have the dumbest Dusty quote, but it's darn near!

I told my daughter about this thread as we were taking her to catch the Megabus back to DC and she commented that Stubbs problem isn't that he's not too inpatient; but that he's a bit different from most strikeout batters in that he takes a lot of pitches and then, as someone noted, he's got 2 strikes on him and he's in trouble. It would be interesting to see how many of his strikes are called and then what happens on that 3rd strike. I can never disagree with a batter clearly recognizing a fat pitch and ending a game like last nights.

And Baker has constantly talked about the delicate balance of being aggressive and being patient and working counts. And, as someone noted, if the OP thought this was the worst Dusty quote, attention has not been paid. And I'm an ardent Dusty supporter and even I know that Dusty has had some doozies. This wasn't one of them.

[redsmetz]

I have been saying that Drew Stubbs should be more aggressive at the plate for 4 years now. I still think he does. It isn't about swinging at bad pitches, but I think that he takes too many good pitches early on in an effort to either "work the count" or to "wait for a better pitch". For some guys, I am ok with that approach. But Stubbs has some of the worst contact rates in all of baseball, so he shouldn't look at hittable strikes. I don't have an issue with either of the quotes at hand as long as they aren't being translated to "swing at the first pitch no matter what", and I don't think either Dusty or Stubbs would ever go for such a policy.

Doug's articulating my daughter's point precisely.

[Redlegs]

He was definately agressive in the 9th inning last night. He hacked at a pitch off the plate and out of the zone and deposited it in the seats.

[kaldaniels]

Stubbs took a meatball down the middle earlier in the game for the first pitch of an AB...I sure as heck don't like that. Swing away Drew.

[IslandRed]

Plate discipline isn't about taking pitches, getting walks or even working the count for its own sake. Those are simply some of the benefits of having plate discipline. Plate discipline is only doing the two simple things that have been the hitters objective for well over 100 years:

1. Don't swing at pitches that aren't good pitches to hit.
2. Murder ones that are (no matter when in the count they come).

As Babe Ruth said (its in my sig) "Pick a good one and sock it."

Agreed. Dusty's hitting philosophies, looked at as a whole and not just lifting a quote here and there, are no different than this and what other good hitters have followed for eons. Be ready to hit your pitch. Know the difference between a good pitch and a bad pitch.

Strikes Out Looking's post also reminds us of a third thing: Be smart up there.

[Ron Madden]

I don't think Drew's problem is being more or less aggressive.

I think Drew's problem is pitch recognition.


JMHO

[RollyInRaleigh]

I have been saying that Drew Stubbs should be more aggressive at the plate for 4 years now. I still think he does. It isn't about swinging at bad pitches, but I think that he takes too many good pitches early on in an effort to either "work the count" or to "wait for a better pitch". For some guys, I am ok with that approach. But Stubbs has some of the worst contact rates in all of baseball, so he shouldn't look at hittable strikes. I don't have an issue with either of the quotes at hand as long as they aren't being translated to "swing at the first pitch no matter what", and I don't think either Dusty or Stubbs would ever go for such a policy.

:beerme:

[kaldaniels]

I have been saying that Drew Stubbs should be more aggressive at the plate for 4 years now. I still think he does. It isn't about swinging at bad pitches, but I think that he takes too many good pitches early on in an effort to either "work the count" or to "wait for a better pitch". For some guys, I am ok with that approach. But Stubbs has some of the worst contact rates in all of baseball, so he shouldn't look at hittable strikes. I don't have an issue with either of the quotes at hand as long as they aren't being translated to "swing at the first pitch no matter what", and I don't think either Dusty or Stubbs would ever go for such a policy.

Dan O'Brien might.

[RichRed]

It could be my observation bias talking, but it seems like the vast majority of Stubbs' strikeouts are on swings and misses at breaking balls around his ankles. If he's unable to recognize and lay off that pitch with two strikes, then I have absolutely no problem with him attacking a fastball early in the count.

[Tony Cloninger]

What I DO NOT like is the idea that when a reliever comes in you should not be worried about working the pitcher. I think one of the reasons we have seen this team not Add On ...is beacuse after working the starter.....they decide the hack approach is better than working to see what the reliever has and starting another scoring rally instead of just trying to jack one out.

It worked tonight beacuse it was a good pitch to swing at. How many times this year though has that not worked and we have bemoaned the fact that the hitters are not just trying to get on base?

[CySeymour]

I think Stubbs being aggressive on hittable pitches early in the count, will lead to him increasing his walk rate. Pitchers won't be quite so eager to throw him early fastballs just to get ahead.

[TRF]

There hasn't been a single poster here harder on Drew Stubbs than me, mostly because i think he's ill suited to be a leadoff hitter. His approach at the plate might be good in a team long term game sense, work the count try to see as many pitches as possible, but it turns out he actually does have power. Of the qualified players that hit 1st in the lineup, Stubbs is second in the NL with 11 HR's. He's got the 4th best OPS. He needs to play better on the road. His numbers at GABP: .287 .374 .489 .863 That's Matt Kemp numbers.

IMO He shouldn't be trying to work the count like a traditional leadoff hitter. In fact, he should be looking for pitches to drive with every pitch. let the #2 hitter work the count as he has Joey Votto hitting behind him.

[TRF]

Also, Stubbs has some interesting splits. Awful on the road, .230 .299 .333 .632

in 253 AB's at night, .249 .321 .372 .693

in 138 AB's in the daytime, .268 .357 .464 .821

possibly some vision problems at night?

[alexad]

I wish Dusty would let Stubbs steal more bases. That guy can fly. Late in the game when Stubbs singled he shot out of the box like Captain America. My question was why not steal him to second instead of having Edgar sacrifice him with the out.

I honestly believe if he bunted once a game and had the green light he would steal 70 bases in a season easy.

[smith288]

I don't understand why he doesn't bunt or at least show it more often. Even if he has zero intention, give them something to think about. I think Heisey does that more often than Drew.

[kaldaniels]

So, what could Stubbs have done in that 9th inning AB yesterday and post-game so that he would have recieved 0 negative posts about him today. Just asking. :dunno:

[REDREAD]

So, what could Stubbs have done in that 9th inning AB yesterday and post-game so that he would have recieved 0 negative posts about him today. Just asking. :dunno:

worked a 20 pitch walk? That would've probably made people happier :laugh:

I agree with what Stubbs/Dusty said. You don't worry too much about trying to run up a reliever's pitch count. Especially against a team like Atlanta that has a deep pen. Why should Stubbs take pitches and try to tire out a reliever, since doing so increases the chance of Stubbs making an out?
If Stubbs feels he can handle the pitch, he should swing at it.

[Always Red]

So, what could Stubbs have done in that 9th inning AB yesterday and post-game so that he would have recieved 0 negative posts about him today. Just asking. :dunno:

That's a good question; I would like to know the answer, too.

I can tell you one thing- if Stubbs continues sliding so hard and late, feet first into 2nd and 3rd, he's gonna break an ankle one of these days. I thought he almost did last night going into 2nd, on the play where he ripped his pants at the knee.

[alexad]

That's a good question; I would like to know the answer, too.

I can tell you one thing- if Stubbs continues sliding so hard and late, feet first into 2nd and 3rd, he's gonna break an ankle one of these days. I thought he almost did last night going into 2nd, on the play where he ripped his pants at the knee.

The dude is so fast a slide for him will always be hard. I am glad he goes feet first instead of diving.

[REDblooded]

I have been saying that Drew Stubbs should be more aggressive at the plate for 4 years now. I still think he does. It isn't about swinging at bad pitches, but I think that he takes too many good pitches early on in an effort to either "work the count" or to "wait for a better pitch". For some guys, I am ok with that approach. But Stubbs has some of the worst contact rates in all of baseball, so he shouldn't look at hittable strikes. I don't have an issue with either of the quotes at hand as long as they aren't being translated to "swing at the first pitch no matter what", and I don't think either Dusty or Stubbs would ever go for such a policy.

I ABSOLUTELY agree with this... I'd love to see a breakdown of pitch type to Stubbs on the first pitch of his AB's... Without the numbers to verify it looks like the book on Stubbs is to throw him a fastball for a strike on the first pitch because he's usually taking...

[Homer Bailey]

So, what could Stubbs have done in that 9th inning AB yesterday and post-game so that he would have recieved 0 negative posts about him today. Just asking. :dunno:

Either bunt for an inside the park home run on a 3-2 pitch, or bunt it over the fence I'm guessing?

Seriously, the whole bunt thing has got to stop. The man can swing a piece of lumber, let him swing it.

[RedsManRick]

As somebody who has been critical of Dusty and his "aggressive" suggestions, Stubbs is one guy for whom it makes sense. I think the basic message is the one Doug described. Stubbs isn't a good enough contact hitter to watch pitches that he could have hit and he's got a good enough eye to know the difference. If he sees one he can drive, go for it. Actively working the count is for guys who can keep themselves alive with 2 strikes. And that's not Stubbs.

[kaldaniels]

Either bunt for an inside the park home run on a 3-2 pitch, or bunt it over the fence I'm guessing?
Seriously, the whole bunt thing has got to stop. The man can swing a piece of lumber, let him swing it.

:lol:

[REDblooded]

:lol:

Maybe... But when faced with the alternatives of watching a guy strike out or bunt with enough speed to reach base, I'd rather see a guy put the pressure on the defense to make the perfect play to get the out.

It also forces the defense to decide to play in to handle the bunt which opens up holes in the infield if he makes contact on a swing...

[kaldaniels]

As somebody who has been critical of Dusty and his "aggressive" suggestions, Stubbs is one guy for whom it makes sense. I think the basic message is the one Doug described. Stubbs isn't a good enough contact hitter to watch pitches that he could have hit and he's got a good enough eye to know the difference. If he sees one he can drive, go for it. Actively working the count is for guys who can keep themselves alive with 2 strikes. And that's not Stubbs.

Perfectly stated. Too often I have seen Stubbs (and also Gomes) go up to the plate and take a first pitch fastball down the pipe...especially when those guys are in a funk. Those guys get into trouble when they go up to the plate playing the guessing game. Gomes especially...how many times this year has he taken strike 1, and then chased the next pitch in the dirt? These guys are hackers (and I'm not saying that in the bad sense)...you get 3 swings when you are up there...make them count.

[alexad]

Perfectly stated. Too often I have seen Stubbs (and also Gomes) go up to the plate and take a first pitch fastball down the pipe...especially when those guys are in a funk. Those guys get into trouble when they go up to the plate playing the guessing game. Gomes especially...how many times this year has he taken strike 1, and then chased the next pitch in the dirt? These guys are hackers (and I'm not saying that in the bad sense)...you get 3 swings when you are up there...make them count.

Yea but last night Gomes swung at first pitch and hit it to the shortstop for an out when he needed to be a little patient at the plate.

[kaldaniels]

Yea but last night Gomes swung at first pitch and hit it to the shortstop for an out when he needed to be a little patient at the plate.

He put good wood on it. Speaking for myself I don't have much issue with that AB.

[dougdirt]

I ABSOLUTELY agree with this... I'd love to see a breakdown of pitch type to Stubbs on the first pitch of his AB's... Without the numbers to verify it looks like the book on Stubbs is to throw him a fastball for a strike on the first pitch because he's usually taking...

Got this from TexasLeaguers.com. I don't think they correct the pitch identifications, so you have to deal with what MLB.com's Gameday says the pitch is and it isn't always correct, but for the most part, it is.


Type Count Slct Strike Swing Whiff Foul In Play
FF 165 37.7% 60.6% 30.3% 4.8% 9.7% 15.8%
CU 72 16.4% 50.0% 19.4% 5.6% 6.9% 6.9%
SL 61 13.9% 62.3% 27.9% 9.8% 6.6% 11.5%
SI 51 11.6% 58.8% 23.5% 2.0% 13.7% 7.8%
FT 47 10.7% 61.7% 21.3% 4.3% 6.4% 10.6%
FC 19 4.3% 68.4% 15.8% 5.3% 5.3% 5.3%
CH 18 4.1% 55.6% 38.9% 5.6% 22.2% 11.1%
FS 3 0.7% 33.3% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0%
FA 1 0.2% 100.0% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0%
FO 1 0.2% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0%


Dan O'Brien might.
I don't think he would have in the Majors. The idea behind the plan was to get the minor leaguers to look at the pitches in the hopes it improved their pitch recognition abilities.

[kaldaniels]

Got this from TexasLeaguers.com. I don't think they correct the pitch identifications, so you have to deal with what MLB.com's Gameday says the pitch is and it isn't always correct, but for the most part, it is.


Type Count Slct Strike Swing Whiff Foul In Play
FF 165 37.7% 60.6% 30.3% 4.8% 9.7% 15.8%
CU 72 16.4% 50.0% 19.4% 5.6% 6.9% 6.9%
SL 61 13.9% 62.3% 27.9% 9.8% 6.6% 11.5%
SI 51 11.6% 58.8% 23.5% 2.0% 13.7% 7.8%
FT 47 10.7% 61.7% 21.3% 4.3% 6.4% 10.6%
FC 19 4.3% 68.4% 15.8% 5.3% 5.3% 5.3%
CH 18 4.1% 55.6% 38.9% 5.6% 22.2% 11.1%
FS 3 0.7% 33.3% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0%
FA 1 0.2% 100.0% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0%
FO 1 0.2% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0%


I don't think he would have in the Majors. The idea behind the plan was to get the minor leaguers to look at the pitches in the hopes it improved their pitch recognition abilities.

I know...completely joking. I was actually suggesting he would tell big leaguers to swing at the first pitch no matter what. :laugh:

[Slyder]

Tonight is a perfect example of what drives me absolutely BONKERS about Dusty's philosophy. Down by 2, 2 outs and Isringhausen just walked a guy on 4 straight. KNOW THE SITUATION. The entire at bat by Phillips was setup for Isringhausen by that first weak check swing pitch above the letters.

[757690]

Tonight is a perfect example of what drives me absolutely BONKERS about Dusty's philosophy. Down by 2, 2 outs and Isringhausen just walked a guy on 4 straight. KNOW THE SITUATION. The entire at bat by Phillips was setup for Isringhausen by that first weak check swing pitch above the letters.

That's not Baker's philosophy. That was just stupid by Phillips.

I have no problem if Phillips swings at a grooved one on the first pitch in that situation.

[Wheelhouse]

It almost sounds like you want Stubbs to fail. I think he'll eventually be an all-star calibar player. All he needs to do is cut down on his K's. That can be accomplished by cutting down his swing with two strikes.

With Stubbs' speed and athletic ability I think he could go into the Hall of Fame, forget about All Star caliber. But not for hitting home runs, for stolen bases. He could be another Rickey Henderson. He has the ability to terrorize defenses, and throw an opposing team off kilter from the first. He could be an extremely valuable weapon. I mourn the fact that he doesn't realize the player he is, and none of the coaches will help him create an approach that will give him the best chance of success. And BTW, if Stubbs focused on simply making contact he'd hit his share of home runs, too...

[RedsManRick]

Tonight is a perfect example of what drives me absolutely BONKERS about Dusty's philosophy. Down by 2, 2 outs and Isringhausen just walked a guy on 4 straight. KNOW THE SITUATION. The entire at bat by Phillips was setup for Isringhausen by that first weak check swing pitch above the letters.

Dusty's aggressiveness assumes a certain degree of common sense. It's about being aggressive on stuff you can handle, not fastballs at your shoulders.

[camisadelgolf]

This is an overgeneralization, but I also think there's some truth to it. When the Reds do well, the players did a great job. When the Reds do poorly, Dusty Baker messed something up.

[Slyder]

This is an overgeneralization, but I also think there's some truth to it. When the Reds do well, the players did a great job. When the Reds do poorly, Dusty Baker messed something up.

Maybe I was overly involved at the time but it is what I have said since practically the day we traded Junior and Dunn. Dusty is a veteran's manager not a teacher per se. He's out of his comfort zone.

He comes from the "old school" and as such has a history with saying things like "walks just clogging bases", "be aggressive at the plate", etc which can go against the mantra that many teams (NYY, Moneyball, Boston, etc) have begun implementing in taking pitches, working counts, and getting deeper into teams pens.

A veteran player in general has a greater knowledge of MLB and what is successful for them, when Dusty says "be up there looking to swing" they have a better sense of what works for them early in counts. Whereas someone like Bruce or even Phillips had not really had a lot of time in MLB without Dusty as manager so when they heard Dusty say "be up there looking to swing" they have a different sense of what that means. That is what I meant.

[GAC]

That was just stupid by Phillips.

That's just Brandon "It felt wrong not to swing" Phillips. You'd think his salary was dependent on how many times he swings during the year. He goes up there flailing like a helpless swimmer in a pool of tiger sharks.

And he ain't ever gonna change either. ;)

[11larkin11]

The Reds are 6th in the Majors in Walks (by hitters, not pitchers.)

Insert excuses now.

[edabbs44]

The Reds are 6th in the Majors in Walks (by hitters, not pitchers.)

Insert excuses now.

They'd be first without Dusty?

:)