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View Full Version : Winning may cost us deals..



brm7675
07-25-2011, 01:19 PM
I really think if the Reds win a couple more in a row Walt will back off making any kind of deal and will go with what we have...

mroby85
07-25-2011, 01:22 PM
I really think if the Reds win a couple more in a row Walt will back off making any kind of deal and will go with what we have...

I think if this is the case, they weren't serious about making a deal in the first place because they would've said the same thing if they lost a couple and were further out of first. They should be trying to get better, period.

drowg14
07-25-2011, 01:38 PM
I really think if the Reds win a couple more in a row Walt will back off making any kind of deal and will go with what we have...

I am inclined to believe the opposite, although I admit it may be 100% due to blind optimism. If we get a couple more wins before the deadline in a row, he will see we have a shot and try to get us all the way there.

brm7675
07-25-2011, 01:53 PM
I think if this is the case, they weren't serious about making a deal in the first place because they would've said the same thing if they lost a couple and were further out of first. They should be trying to get better, period.

But I believe both Dusty and Walt believe we are in the "position" we are in not do to a lack of talent, but that talent not playing up to it's level. If that is the case then they feel we will be better.

R_Webb18
07-25-2011, 02:24 PM
just stop it with i know what walt and dusty are thinkin b/c u don't. why would they make a move to just a move? that dumb. they will either make a trade 2 improve the team or they wont b/c they didnt find wat they wanted

davrix
07-25-2011, 02:37 PM
My hope is they do not trade away the future for someone like Carlos Beltran. If they could get a solid long term player, like Pence or Shields that is one thing, otherwise, keep the focus on being a strong team for the long term.

Look at the Reds in 1970, great team, but took a step back in 71, but kept the focus on the long term and became the Big Red Machine. I am not saying this team is the BRM, but now is not the time to trade everything away to win this year. I get that for the Brewers, but not the Reds.

LeDoux
07-25-2011, 02:44 PM
Maybe I'm drinking the same Kool-Aid as drowg14, but as far as starting pitching or LF goes- I think they will be more inclined to add help with a winning streak.

brm7675
07-25-2011, 02:57 PM
If both your GM and Manager believe that we are where we are right now due to the present roster not performing up the level they can, if they get on a brief winning streak wouldn't that reenforce that and thus deter them making a deal because we don't need the new blood?

brm7675
07-25-2011, 02:58 PM
just stop it with i know what walt and dusty are thinkin b/c u don't. why would they make a move to just a move? that dumb. they will either make a trade 2 improve the team or they wont b/c they didnt find wat they wanted

Huh? Both have come out and said over and over and over again that this team is talented and just not playing up to that level. Are you saying they are lying?

LeDoux
07-25-2011, 03:03 PM
If both your GM and Manager believe that we are where we are right now due to the present roster not performing up the level they can, if they get on a brief winning streak wouldn't that reenforce that and thus deter them making a deal because we don't need the new blood?

I give Walt and Dusty enough credit to know that the individual players are contributing at different levels. If it was only up to Dusty I might agree. He is loyal to a fault. But I feel pretty confident Walt can identify potential improvements. I will also admit to wearing rose-coloured glasses at the moment.

R_Webb18
07-25-2011, 03:14 PM
Huh? Both have come out and said over and over and over again that this team is talented and just not playing up to that level. Are you saying they are lying?

no b/c thats 100 % true imo. does not mean u cant improve still.

Vottomatic
07-25-2011, 04:03 PM
But I believe both Dusty and Walt believe we are in the "position" we are in not do to a lack of talent, but that talent not playing up to it's level. If that is the case then they feel we will be better.

Geez. Same post, different thread, every time.

Vottomatic
07-25-2011, 04:07 PM
I've been around long enough to see underachieving teams get hot at the right time. I've been around long enough to see overachieving teams come back to earth at the wrong time (Mets in recent years).
I've seen mediocre teams win it all (2006 Cardinals).
I've seen great teams ('90 Oakland) lose to hot teams ('90 Reds).

The Reds players have not been in sync all season. Good pitching, bad hitting. Good hitting, bad pitching. Maybe they put it all together at the right time? (now)

Captain13
07-25-2011, 04:09 PM
. Maybe they put it all together at the right time? (now)

I would prefer September and October. :beerme:

brm7675
07-25-2011, 04:15 PM
no b/c thats 100 % true imo. does not mean u cant improve still.

What would there be to improve? Scott Rolen is the Reds 3rd basemen till he decides to retire. There really isn't any SS on the market that would be an improvement over what we have (especially if Cozart can return this season), the platooning in LF has gotten better. Our pitching for the most part has been fantastic over the past couple of weeks. So...if the players who were struggling begin to show life, exactly "what" is there to upgrade?

mroby85
07-25-2011, 04:18 PM
What would there be to improve? Scott Rolen is the Reds 3rd basemen till he decides to retire. There really isn't any SS on the market that would be an improvement over what we have (especially if Cozart can return this season), the platooning in LF has gotten better. Our pitching for the most part has been fantastic over the past couple of weeks. So...if the players who were struggling begin to show life, exactly "what" is there to upgrade?

If you don't think Hunter Pence would be an upgrade over Gomes/Lewis/Heisey, and don't think Shields or Ubaldo could be an upgrade over anyone but Cueto, there is really no point in having the argument. 2 weeks worth of playing decent doesn't earn you the rest of the season in that spot when your team is 3 games out with 8 weeks left, it shouldn't at least.

brm7675
07-25-2011, 04:30 PM
If you don't think Hunter Pence would be an upgrade over Gomes/Lewis/Heisey, and don't think Shields or Ubaldo could be an upgrade over anyone but Cueto, there is really no point in having the argument. 2 weeks worth of playing decent doesn't earn you the rest of the season in that spot when your team is 3 games out with 8 weeks left, it shouldn't at least.

It doesn't matter what I think, it's what Walt and Dusty think and I don't see them seeing those players as being that much of an improvement over what it would cost to get them. Remember Walt is a hoarder...he loves to hoard his minor league talent.

mroby85
07-25-2011, 04:46 PM
It doesn't matter what I think, it's what Walt and Dusty think and I don't see them seeing those players as being that much of an improvement over what it would cost to get them. Remember Walt is a hoarder...he loves to hoard his minor league talent.

How did he get Mark Mcgwire, Scott Rolen, Mark Mulder and Jim Edmonds in his St. Louis years? I'd say its about our turn to get one of those here, lol.

brm7675
07-25-2011, 04:53 PM
How did he get Mark Mcgwire, Scott Rolen, Mark Mulder and Jim Edmonds in his St. Louis years? I'd say its about our turn to get one of those here, lol.

He at the time viewed his team needing some help...he doesn't view the present Reds roster as needing a major boost.

Captain13
07-25-2011, 04:55 PM
He at the time viewed his team needing some help...he doesn't view the present Reds roster as needing a major boost.

I think he does. You can't believe anything a GM says in July. They are basically the same as lawyers and salespeople (you know they're lying any time their lips are moving).

Billy Hamilton's Legs
07-25-2011, 05:40 PM
I think he does. You can't believe anything a GM says in July. They are basically the same as lawyers and salespeople (you know they're lying any time their lips are moving).

A lot of people complain about Walt, but I think having a GM that plays his cards close to his vest is a good thing. People get frustrated because Walt says, "we're not looking for anything," but you can bet you bottom dollar that the man always has the phone line open and is tossing ideas around. It's the man's job for christ's sake. If you look at what he did in St. Louis, you just have to trust the man and let him do his job, chances are, he's doing everything he can to improve the club.

brm7675
07-25-2011, 05:47 PM
A lot of people complain about Walt, but I think having a GM that plays his cards close to his vest is a good thing. People get frustrated because Walt says, "we're not looking for anything," but you can bet you bottom dollar that the man always has the phone line open and is tossing ideas around. It's the man's job for christ's sake. If you look at what he did in St. Louis, you just have to trust the man and let him do his job, chances are, he's doing everything he can to improve the club.

I am amazed at the number of people who think this way. Walt has shown me very little in his time with the Reds that impresses me. Plus, look at the Cards, was it him or other people that made them successful?

LeDoux
07-25-2011, 06:34 PM
I think being a smaller market requires a bit of caution for the Reds. A bad contract like Aramis Ramirez could put them out of contention for several years. Walt has made some bad deals/extentions for sure, but none have been crippleing (the Arroyo extention looking like the worst). I also see little chance that the Jimenez, Sheilds, Beltran prospective trades could significantly hurt the team between now and 2013. As far as 2014 and beyond, as long as Dayton is not cleaned out, winning now will be the best help to the future ballclub. Pull that trigger, Mr. Jocketty!

Billy Hamilton's Legs
07-25-2011, 07:27 PM
I am amazed at the number of people who think this way. Walt has shown me very little in his time with the Reds that impresses me. Plus, look at the Cards, was it him or other people that made them successful?

This may sound a little over the top, but i honestly contend that without the acquisition of Scott Rolen, this team doesn't win the division last year and isn't in contention this year. I know that statement, especially about this year, sounds ridiculous, but that acquisition made us "for real." I don't think the Reds gain the confidence that they could actually win without it. No, the guy hasn't made every "perfect" move, but I don't think you can say he hurt us in major way thus far.

About the Cards, if you're the GM for a team for ~12 yrs and win the division 7 times plus a WS, you're doing your job pretty well. I can't see an argument against this either; 12 years is more than enough time to allow for turn over of current players and development/drafting of new ones.

brm7675
07-25-2011, 07:33 PM
This may sound a little over the top, but i honestly contend that without the acquisition of Scott Rolen, this team doesn't win the division last year and isn't in contention this year. I know that statement, especially about this year, sounds ridiculous, but that acquisition made us "for real." I don't think the Reds gain the confidence that they could actually win without it. No, the guy hasn't made every "perfect" move, but I don't think you can say he hurt us in major way thus far.

About the Cards, if you're the GM for a team for ~12 yrs and win the division 7 times plus a WS, you're doing your job pretty well. I can't see an argument against this either; 12 years is more than enough time to allow for turn over of current players and development/drafting of new ones.

The addition of Rolen wasn't bad, it was his contract that was bad.

Vottomatic
07-25-2011, 07:34 PM
What would there be to improve? Scott Rolen is the Reds 3rd basemen till he decides to retire. There really isn't any SS on the market that would be an improvement over what we have (especially if Cozart can return this season), the platooning in LF has gotten better. Our pitching for the most part has been fantastic over the past couple of weeks. So...if the players who were struggling begin to show life, exactly "what" is there to upgrade?

Uh.....no. Rolen is only signed through next season. So unless he retires after next season, he will be looking for a job with another team.

40YrRedsFan
07-25-2011, 11:28 PM
He at the time viewed his team needing some help...he doesn't view the present Reds roster as needing a major boost.

After watching this team for 2/3 of the season, Walt knows exactly what help this team needs. He has been in this biz for a long time. It is a question of money, and how much we could get with the players we might have available. If he goes to Castellini and says we can get so and so, but we would have to pay him 12 million a year and give up Mesoraco, Alonso, Stubbs, etc, etc, and Bob C. says do it, it would be done. If he says no, it won't be done. They are not going to tip their hand by saying anything to anybody to avoid rumors and lessening the value of certain players.

brm7675
07-26-2011, 12:22 PM
Uh.....no. Rolen is only signed through next season. So unless he retires after next season, he will be looking for a job with another team.

You really believe that? Bob and Walt love him and all he brings, again he will be a Red and the 3rd basemen till he calls it a career

Girevik
07-26-2011, 12:44 PM
Last year Walt was very quitely in on Cliff Lee until the very end. He's not the type of guy who leaks what he's doing. I fully beleive that he's working to improve the team. I'm just not incredibly hopeful that there's a lot out there that can help unless he's REALLY willing to over pay.

Redinlexington
07-26-2011, 12:45 PM
I have a feeling Rolen is going to be a Red for a long time, not as a player, but as a coach and manager. I think Rolen might have one more year left in him, but I feel they are grooming him to be a manager.

Redinlexington
07-26-2011, 12:47 PM
Walt also knows we are more than just one player away from winning anything. We need another TOR sp, a right handed bat in middle of order and a leadoff hitter. Our future is bright, this year is one of those learning years for this team.

Girevik
07-26-2011, 01:59 PM
Which is why I'm not longer insterested in a rental, but if they could get a guy like Jimenez who is locked up for a couple of years, then I say grab him while you can and work on a bat in the off season.

texasdave
07-26-2011, 03:12 PM
How did he get Mark Mcgwire, Scott Rolen, Mark Mulder and Jim Edmonds in his St. Louis years? I'd say its about our turn to get one of those here, lol.

We got one - Scott Rolen. I think you mean it is about our turn to get another. :)

Vottomatic
07-26-2011, 04:37 PM
Charlie Sheen has a different opinion on "Winning".