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sammonator
07-27-2011, 10:44 AM
Would you trade Votto for Bautista? Then you could play Yonder at first base with Bautista in LF. Would the Blue Jays do it? I would make the trade and put Yonder at first. Because I think Votto is headed there anyway in a couple of years. I don't think the Blue Jays would do that trade. Thoughts?

R_Webb18
07-27-2011, 10:55 AM
do you rly think this would happen?

sammonator
07-27-2011, 11:14 AM
No I don't think it would happen I was just wondering if you would make the trade as a Reds fan?

R_Webb18
07-27-2011, 11:18 AM
yea i guess. no clue on his contact but yea.

bounty37h
07-27-2011, 11:18 AM
Nope, I wouldnt even take that call. I havent seen enough/long enough out of Bautista to know this is really the player he is, might just be another flavor of the month and then drop back down to reality. I guess same could be said of Votto, but there isnt a track record of mediocre at best play behind him.

mroby85
07-27-2011, 11:29 AM
There isn't another player in the league I would trade Votto for. If you did trade Votto for someone like Pujols you would probably find a similar drop in production from Pujols due to no protection in the batting order with the likes of Holliday and Berkman not being behind him, to go along with being walked all the time. I think Votto is apparently greatly under appreciated on this board based on the threads i've seen the last few days. It baffles me how this city prefers players like Chris Stynes, Adam Rosales, and Chris Heisey, and constantly want to figure out how to trade a player like Joey Votto when they get one. The Reds should have a mutiny on their hands if they don't do everything they can to keep Votto here.

sammonator
07-27-2011, 11:36 AM
I would def rather have Votto than Bautista but I really think that Joey is not going to sign here long term. I think he wants to be closer to home in Toronto. I think that is why he didn't sign a longer extension. And that is also why I would think about trading him if the offer was right.

Vottomatic
07-27-2011, 02:17 PM
I would def rather have Votto than Bautista but I really think that Joey is not going to sign here long term. I think he wants to be closer to home in Toronto. I think that is why he didn't sign a longer extension. And that is also why I would think about trading him if the offer was right.

Again, I'm one of Joey's biggest fans, but I would trade him for Bautista. And based on their age difference, I might ask for a minor league prospect added to the deal.

Then I would consider keeping Alonso and sticking him at first base.

Joey may have had a career year last year, and it might be as good as it gets for him. Bautista would solidify the 4-hole for several more years. Alonso could bat 3rd. Solves cleanup hitter, LF, and replaces 1B with 2 quality bats. Because the Reds have Alonso is why I would do it, not to mention Bautista is a huge threat in the 4-hole.

All of Cincinnati Reds fans would go bonkers in revolt, but I would still do it.

And I agree, that I don't think Joey will re-sign with the Reds at the end of his contract. Probably the biggest reason I do it.

krm1580
07-27-2011, 02:38 PM
Can somebody please explain to me what Yonder Alonzo has done at ANY level of the minors to be comfortable and say 1B is covered?

He is having the best full season of his entire career and his slash is 296/.374/.486 as 24 year old repeating AAA. He is not great with the glove. He is slow. As far as I can tell he is Sean Casey with less contact and little more power.

Girevik
07-27-2011, 02:45 PM
Can somebody please explain to me what Yonder Alonzo has done at ANY level of the minors to be comfortable and say 1B is covered?

He is having the best full season of his entire career and his slash is 296/.374/.486 as 24 year old repeating AAA. He is not great with the glove. He is slow. As far as I can tell he is Sean Casey with less contact and little more power.

People love their prospects. I have to shake my head at people who won't trade prospects for a proven guy (unless you're rebuilding) out of fear of what the prospect might become. They always look at the upper end of his potential and not where they are likely to end up.

I'd almos ALWAYS take the proven guy over a prospect (including trading draft picks for proven players in football).

sammonator
07-27-2011, 02:49 PM
Again, I'm one of Joey's biggest fans, but I would trade him for Bautista. And based on their age difference, I might ask for a minor league prospect added to the deal.

Then I would consider keeping Alonso and sticking him at first base.

Joey may have had a career year last year, and it might be as good as it gets for him. Bautista would solidify the 4-hole for several more years. Alonso could bat 3rd. Solves cleanup hitter, LF, and replaces 1B with 2 quality bats. Because the Reds have Alonso is why I would do it, not to mention Bautista is a huge threat in the 4-hole.

All of Cincinnati Reds fans would go bonkers in revolt, but I would still do it.

And I agree, that I don't think Joey will re-sign with the Reds at the end of his contract. Probably the biggest reason I do it.

Thank you. I was beginning to think I would be the only one to make the deal. But really I don't think Toronto would make that trade.

Vottomatic
07-27-2011, 05:55 PM
Thank you. I was beginning to think I would be the only one to make the deal. But really I don't think Toronto would make that trade.

My gut feeling is that Votto will end up taking a little less to go home to Toronto in 2014 as a free agent. Reds owe him $19M in 2013.

Wouldn't surprise me, IF VOTTO PUTS UP GOOD NUMBERS, to see the Reds approach him about an extension. And if Votto isn't interested, you might see him dealt next season if the Reds again aren't contending. And if he is putting up good numbers and doesn't want an extension, then they definitely might trade him at his highest value if having a good season.

Should be interesting next season to see what happens between Votto and the Reds.

BluegrassRedleg
07-27-2011, 06:21 PM
A young MVP for a career journeyman on a hot streak? No thanks.

sammonator
08-01-2011, 04:48 PM
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/

Looks like it might have been close to happening.

Newman4
08-01-2011, 04:57 PM
Nope. But, I would trade him for Clayton Kershaw.

Sean_CaseyRules
08-01-2011, 05:08 PM
I'd be down. It would make us better.

Krawhitham
08-01-2011, 05:22 PM
Would you trade Votto for Bautista? Then you could play Yonder at first base with Bautista in LF. Would the Blue Jays do it? I would make the trade and put Yonder at first. Because I think Votto is headed there anyway in a couple of years. I don't think the Blue Jays would do that trade. Thoughts?

no, I like my players clean

Krawhitham
08-01-2011, 05:30 PM
Nope. But, I would trade him for Clayton Kershaw.

I can't see that

A great hitter and win you a game every night

A great pitcher at best will win you 66% of his starts every 5th day

R_Webb18
08-01-2011, 05:31 PM
yessssssssss we would be better and our lineup would be nasty

Pony Boy
08-01-2011, 05:38 PM
Trading Votto for Bautista would like be trading for two players. We would get both Bautista and Alonso in the deal. Bautista's production prior to 2010 worries me, but I think the positives of the deal makes the risk worth it.

Bautista has been a better hitter than Votto over the past 1.5 seasons, plays a position of greater need (given Alonso), and has a better contract. Plus his agent is a chap named Bean Stringfellow; the coolest name I have ever heard.

Billy Hamilton's Legs
08-01-2011, 05:48 PM
I just don't know if I believe in Bautista as a perennial .900-.950 OPS guy. I do understand that it is his second season doing it, but the three seasons prior he was OPSing ~.750. To me, Votto is 10x more of a guarantee than Bautista. Although one factor that I think should be considered: the Blue Jays decided to sign the guy to an expensive 6 yr deal after last season, obviously they thought he would be worth the money and would produce at that rate for years to come. A very, very intriguing deal though. I just don't think I would give up Votto. Another bit: has anyone ever looked at Votto's "clutch" stat on Fangraphs? If you're not familiar it essentially is a number computed by comparing that player's production in high leverage situations to that same player's production in non-high leverage situations. Votto LEADS the major leagues in clutch hitting. And remember that's an increase in performance over his normal-mvp level of performance. If Yonder can play Gomes defense, then I keep Votto.

powersackers
08-01-2011, 05:57 PM
I can't see that

A great hitter and win you a game every night

A great pitcher at best will win you 66% of his starts every 5th day

I see many holes in that logic. A great hitter has never had 162 GWRBI in a season. At best it's a percentage of a percentage of wins. Not to mention a 1b is a lot easier to find a replacement for versus a TOR SP. Anyway..

Joey Bats for Joey Votto, intriguing.

Alonso is NOT repeating AAA in a traditional sense. He spent 50-75% of last season recovering from a wrist injury that limited his bat speed and power.

mrherd05
08-01-2011, 06:24 PM
The real question is where is the biggest difference..

Yonder to Votto

or

Heisey to Bautista..

It doesnt matter who is better between Bautista and Votto.

R_Webb18
08-01-2011, 06:32 PM
The real question is where is the biggest difference..

Yonder to Votto

or

Heisey to Bautista..

It doesnt matter who is better between Bautista and Votto.

yes it does

bautista is better than votto
yonder is better than heisey

you see yonder does not have to = votto just better than heisey b/c baustista will do vottos part.

Krawhitham
08-01-2011, 06:49 PM
And when bautista gets busted for roids/HGH the Reds are left with nothing

wlf WV
08-01-2011, 07:02 PM
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/

Looks like it might have been close to happening.I would say Fay reads forums.This seems like a good way of drumming up hits on his blog.The part about having to include a top pitching prospect blew me away.You think Walt would trade his MVP and a top prospect,no way unless he knows Votto wants it,and then I think Walt wants boot.

defender
08-01-2011, 07:06 PM
Bautista had an amazing April and May. Over June and July, Votto and Bautista both have 11 HRs and about a .900 OPS. Votto hit 4 HRs last week. Last 14 days Bautista has 0 HRs and a .600 OPS.

For the rest of this season, I think Votto will be the better hitter. I would bet on Votto being the better hitter the next 2 years and every year until one retires.

realistic
08-01-2011, 07:13 PM
wow thats a tough call. i think id have to do it just to plug that left field hole thats killed us all season

Vottomatic
08-01-2011, 07:22 PM
I can see both sides of this.

I love Votto and think he is one of the best players in the game and definitely a clutch hitter.

BUT........this team needs a legit 4-hole hitter/right handed power bat, preferably LFer. Baustista fills the 4-hole perfectly and LF. Alonso could give us probably 80% of Votto, and in time, maybe the same. I don't think Alonso will be a bust. He may not end up being Votto, but I think he will more than hold his own. Alonso in the 3-hole, Bautista in the 4-hole really solves some problems.

The next wave of great Reds prospects should be hitting the majors in 2013 or 2014. I have a hard time believing that Dayton is full of busts. Everything I read on the minor league forum from those posters who really follow those guys closely, is that Dayton is full of some really improving and multi-talented guys. Sure, it may not pan out. But look at how improved our farm system is. Look at how many guys on the major league roster came through that farm system in the mid-2000's and are helping this team..........Ondrusek, Bailey, Cueto, Leake (draft), Wood, Stubbs, Bruce, Votto, Hanigan, Cozart, Frazier, Francisco, Alonso, Mesoraco (soon to be), Janish, Heisey........and some I probably missed. I would think people would have to be more confident in our farm system based on those guys alone. Shouldn't we?

I would consider that trade of Bautista for Votto. I love Joey, but my gut feeling is that he bolts after 2013 for Toronto, even if it's at a discount. I just think he is a hometown type of guy. That is probably the one reason I would consider it.

40YrRedsFan
08-01-2011, 07:55 PM
I believe Votto is the better player, and will hit for a higher average. He is not a home run hitter, but a hitter that makes hard contact. He will get his 25-30 home runs a year. Another point is Votto would likely hit only 20-25 home runs a year if it were not for the short fences at GABP. I see Votto as a left handed Matt Holliday. Not as many HR's as Bautista, Texeira, Pujols, etc. I don't know how much he wants to play near his home, but I am guessing he wants to play for a winner. If the Reds do not get close to a World Series in the next 2+ years, I think he will definitely go elsewhere. The Reds MUST improve this team this offseason for Votto to even consider a contract extension or a longer term contract. (IMHO)

webbbj
08-01-2011, 08:06 PM
And when bautista gets busted for roids/HGH the Reds are left with nothing

wow sweet assumption with no merit behind it. if/when votto gets suspended for PEDs were left with nothing aswell.

Billy Hamilton's Legs
08-01-2011, 08:13 PM
wow sweet assumption with no merit behind it. if/when votto gets suspended for PEDs were left with nothing aswell.

I hate this banter about whether or not he is juicing. NOT because I have a strong opinion either way, but because if we were to do this trade I don't want to see a regression in his numbers back to pre-2010. Whether that regression is due to use of PEDs or just not being able to continue at the rate he is for whatever reason, I think people worry about the drop-off risk. The people saying it's unfair to make that assumption are 100% correct, but the real meat of the argument behind the "he's juicing" accusations is the worry that a regression is imminent.

Krawhitham
08-01-2011, 09:08 PM
wow sweet assumption with no merit behind it. if/when votto gets suspended for PEDs were left with nothing aswell.


Yeah, he goes from averaging 16.6 HR per 162 games to hitting 54 in 161 games at age 29 based solely on talent

wake up

webbbj
08-01-2011, 09:57 PM
Yeah, he goes from averaging 16.6 HR per 162 games to hitting 54 in 161 games at age 29 based solely on talent

wake up

name one player in the history of baseball that went from basically out of the league to best player in baseball? there isnt any.

Look at his swing change from 2009- to now thats the difference.

Newman4
08-02-2011, 02:37 PM
I can't see that

A great hitter and win you a game every night

A great pitcher at best will win you 66% of his starts every 5th day

Really? Wow, I made that post somewhat sarcastically. I highly doubt the Dodgers would trade a controllable ace with a sub-3.00 ERA for the last three years for Votto. If they were interested, then I would be all over it.