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View Full Version : Edwin Jackson and Others Traded to Cards for Colby Rasmus and Others



Benihana
07-27-2011, 12:51 PM
www.mlbtraderumors.com

Posted a new thread because they're saying it's official.

Jackson to the Cardinals, Rasmus to the Jays, Prospects to the White Sox...

RedsManRick
07-27-2011, 12:56 PM
If Berkman is out for any length of time with this shoulder issue and they trade Rasmus, that's going to be one weak offense.

Benihana
07-27-2011, 12:57 PM
Once again, the Cardinals actually do something while the Reds spin their wheels.

Tom Servo
07-27-2011, 12:59 PM
Once again, the Cardinals actually do something while the Reds spin their wheels.
So the Reds should give up on a young talent like the Cards are with Rasmus?

The Operator
07-27-2011, 01:02 PM
Once again, the Cardinals actually do something while the Reds spin their wheels.This has the potential to blow up in The Cardinals' face. Making a move just to make a move and/or placate your manager by jettisoning a young, talented guy who dares to have a personality is not a good way to do business IMO.

757690
07-27-2011, 01:02 PM
I was made fun of because I asked about an Arroyo for Shelby Miller trade.

This is why I asked about it. The Cards have nothing else but MLB talent to offer.

Joseph
07-27-2011, 01:07 PM
With Dave Duncan you never know, but assuming this is Edwin Jackson we've seen over the last few years [ie wild, volatile what have you] the Cards likely just got fleeced.

Benihana
07-27-2011, 01:09 PM
So the Reds should give up on a young talent like the Cards are with Rasmus?

No, I think the Reds should hold all of their "young talents" regardless of what position they play. Maybe in 2013 we can field a team that includes two catchers, 4 left fielders, 3 center fielders, 3 first basemen, and nine starting pitchers. Don't worry about bringing in upgrades at positions of need from the outside. WE HAVE PROSPECTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Joseph
07-27-2011, 01:10 PM
Among the prospects going to the Windy City is our former farmhand Zach Stewart.

The Operator
07-27-2011, 01:12 PM
No, I think the Reds should hold all of their "young talents" regardless of what position they play. Maybe in 2013 we can field a team that includes two catchers, 4 left fielders, 3 center fielders, 3 first basemen, and nine starting pitchers. Don't worry about bringing in upgrades at positions of need from the outside. WE HAVE PROSPECTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!This is not the Cardinals giving up on a prospect. This is The Cardinals equivalent of trading Jay Bruce for Edwin Jackson. Would you do that?

mdccclxix
07-27-2011, 01:13 PM
The Blue Jays acquired starter Edwin Jackson and third baseman Mark Teahen from the White Sox for reliever Jason Frasor and starter Zach Stewart, tweets Mark Gonzalez of the Chicago Tribune. The deal also includes a cash exchange of more than $1MM.

signalhome
07-27-2011, 01:13 PM
This is not the Cardinals giving up on a prospect. This is The Cardinals equivalent of trading Jay Bruce for Edwin Jackson. Would you do that?

Yeah, pretty much this right here. Though Rasmus was never quite on Bruce's level as a prospect, the guy was supposed to be a star. I actually like Jackson quite a bit, but if I were a Cardinals fan (ugh), I would be a little upset.

mdccclxix
07-27-2011, 01:16 PM
Trades are commonplace for Jackson, who was dealt for the fifth time in his career. The surprising part is that the Blue Jays, 11 games out in the wild card, acquired the impending free agent. Speculation is that Jackson may be flipped, possibly to the Cardinals.

Benihana
07-27-2011, 01:17 PM
This is not the Cardinals giving up on a prospect. This is The Cardinals equivalent of trading Jay Bruce for Edwin Jackson. Would you do that?

No, it's not.

Rasmus has floundered this year, has attitude issues, and has an OPS 100 points lower than Bruce. The Cardinals also have a redundancy there because of Jon Jay.

The Cardinals also traded their 1B prospect they drafted in the first round of 2008 when he was blocked by their incumbent All-Star for Matt Holliday.

The Brewers traded their INF prospect they drafted in the first round of 2008 when he was blocked by their incumbent All-Star for Shaun Marcum.

Do you see a pattern here? What have the Reds done to substantially improve their ballclub in the last 18 months? WE HAVE PROSPECTS!!!!

RedsManRick
07-27-2011, 01:19 PM
Cards are ridiculously thin in the OF now. Prior to the trade, they had 4 OFs on the 25 man: Holliday, Rasmus, Berkman and Jon Jay.

Lance Berkman is having shoulder trouble. Jay is a nice player, but he's probably not going to sustain that .350 BABIP. Expecting Jay to continue to put up an .800 OPS is not a smart risk. His peripherals suggest more like .275/.330/.400. He's a solid defender, so he's not a bad player and quite possibly more productive than Rasmus at this point.

On top of that, I'm not sure who they're replacing. Westbrook is probably the odd man out, but he's not been horrible (4.86 ERA, 1.50 WHIP). Edwin Jackson tends to be a ground ball guy as well. He'll miss more bats than Westbrook, but he's something like a 0.5 win upgrade, maybe 1 win.

Rasmus may not have been tearing it up, but I don't see this as a big improvement for them. They're upgrading the starters by a little but exposing themselves to quite a bit of depth related risk.

I can understand Reds fan frustration, but if activity is just there to ship out a malcontent, it's not something we should be terribly jealous about.

The Operator
07-27-2011, 01:21 PM
No, it's not.

Rasmus has floundered this year, has attitude issues, and has an OPS 100 points lower than Bruce. The Cardinals also have a redundancy there because of Jon Jay.

The Cardinals also traded their 1B prospect they drafted in the first round of 2008 when he was blocked by their incumbent All-Star for Matt Holliday.

The Brewers traded their INF prospect they drafted in the first round of 2008 when he was blocked by their incumbent All-Star for Shaun Marcum.

Do you see a pattern here? What have the Reds done to substantially improve their ballclub in the last 18 months? WE HAVE PROSPECTS!!!!I never said Rasmus and Bruce were identical players. However, they were drafted the same year, in the same round, and are similarly regarded around baseball.

Trading Rasmus isn't the issue. It's that they traded him for Edwin Jackson. Not only is Edwin Jackson a middling starter, he's an impending free agent. This isn't like The Cardinals just landed Ubaldo Jiminez or James Shields. It's Edwin Jackson.

Benihana
07-27-2011, 01:22 PM
At the end of the day, I'm not saying that Colby Rasmus is garbage, or that the Cardinals neccessarily are making the right move here. I'm just frustrated by the total inertia we've seen out of the Cincinnati FO for the last 2 years (since the Rolen trade).

Benihana
07-27-2011, 01:24 PM
I never said Rasmus and Bruce were identical players. However, they were drafted the same year, in the same round, and are similarly regarded around baseball.

No, he's not- at least not anymore. If Bruce were put on the block today, he would likely fetch at least 2x what Rasmus did or would, especially given Bruce's contract.


Trading Rasmus isn't the issue. It's that they traded him for Edwin Jackson. Not only is Edwin Jackson a middling starter, he's an impending free agent. This isn't like The Cardinals just landed Ubaldo Jiminez or James Shields. It's Edwin Jackson.

I don't disagree here. See my post above. However everyone seems to be in agreement that the Cards will get considerably more than just Jackson, so stay tuned...

The Operator
07-27-2011, 01:29 PM
I don't disagree here. See my post above.I'm frustrated too, trust me. I really want something to happen before the deadline. But if an Edwin Jackson-esque trade is the best Walt can do, I'd tell him to pass. The Reds need a hammer in the rotation, not another 3-5 type.

kaldaniels
07-27-2011, 01:30 PM
Misleading thread title, no?

The Operator
07-27-2011, 01:34 PM
Misleading thread title, no?
Seem okay to me, unless I'm missing something. I can use my magic powers to change it though if you can point out how it should be better. :)

bucksfan2
07-27-2011, 01:37 PM
Cards are ridiculously thin in the OF now. Prior to the trade, they had 4 OFs on the 25 man: Holliday, Rasmus, Berkman and Jon Jay.

Jay is a nice player, but he's probably not going to sustain that .350 BABIP.
Lance Berkman is having shoulder trouble.

From the looks of things, they're going to probably slide Theriot to 2B, Shumaker to the OF and play Descalso at SS.

On top of that, I'm not sure who they're replacing. Westbrook is probably the odd man out, but he's not been horrible (4.86 ERA, 1.50 WHIP). Edwin Jackson tends to be a ground ball guy as well. He'll miss more bats than Westbrook, but he's something like a 0.5 win upgrade, maybe 1 win.

Rasmus may not have been tearing it up, but I don't see this as a big improvement for them. If anything, it makes them more susceptible to an injury driven decline.

This is the second season in a row where the Cards have traded a key cog to their team and an OF in order to get a BOR starter. Last season they traded Ludwick in order to insert Jay into the lineup full time because of his lofty numbers. Its almost the same story in that Jay had a very high BABIP and it came down to earth as the season progressed. They also are putting a lot of stock in Berkman continuing to play like he did early this year and ignore father time.

hebroncougar
07-27-2011, 01:39 PM
This is the second season in a row where the Cards have traded a key cog to their team and an OF in order to get a BOR starter. Last season they traded Ludwick in order to insert Jay into the lineup full time because of his lofty numbers. Its almost the same story in that Jay had a very high BABIP and it came down to earth as the season progressed. They also are putting a lot of stock in Berkman continuing to play like he did early this year and ignore father time.

You took the words right out of my mouth. They did the exact same thing last year.

The Operator
07-27-2011, 01:40 PM
You took the words right out of my mouth. They did the exact same thing last year.Except I'd say it's even more egregious this year. Rasmus still has quite a bit of time under team control.

kaldaniels
07-27-2011, 01:45 PM
Seem okay to me, unless I'm missing something. I can use my magic powers to change it though if you can point out how it should be better. :)

Eh I'm just nitpicking. It wasn't straight up for Stewart. No mention of Rasmus?

Just ignore me. :D

mdccclxix
07-27-2011, 01:49 PM
A trade of Rasmus to the Blue Jays for Jackson, Dotel, and Rzepczynski is imminent, reports Joe Strauss of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. He says an announcement could come early this afternoon.

mdccclxix
07-27-2011, 01:51 PM
Wow, Jackson and 2 relievers for Rasmus when apparently this offer was on the table?


Rasmus is a popular trade target. ESPN's Buster Olney tweets that the Rays offered one of Jeff Niemann, Wade Davis, and Alex Cobb, and the young center fielder is very much available. The Indians have interest as well.

In a context of league wide offensive struggle, Rasmus should bring in much more.

aubashbrother
07-27-2011, 02:07 PM
according to Buster Olney heres the trade

The trade: Colby Rasmus, Trever Miller, Brian Tallet and P.J. Walters for Jackson, Marc Rzepczynski, Dotel and Corey Patterson.

RichRed
07-27-2011, 02:09 PM
according to Buster Olney heres the trade

The trade: Colby Rasmus, Trever Miller, Brian Tallet and P.J. Walters for Jackson, Marc Rzepczynski, Dotel and Corey Patterson.

Please tell me this is true.

Tom Servo
07-27-2011, 02:11 PM
Tallet and his sideburns go right back to Toronto then.

RichRed
07-27-2011, 02:12 PM
Tallet and his sideburns go right back to Toronto then.

Getting Patterson's eyebrows in return softens the blow.

RANDY IN INDY
07-27-2011, 02:21 PM
ESPN confirming.

blumj
07-27-2011, 02:27 PM
Wow, Alex Anthopolous does it again.

Tom Servo
07-27-2011, 02:28 PM
Wow, Alex Anthropolous does it again.
You say that like trading away a Cy Young winner in Zach Stewart is a good thing.

OnBaseMachine
07-27-2011, 02:28 PM
Always great to see a division rival get ripped off, even better when it's the Cardinals. Colby Rasmus for Edwin Jackson and relievers? I love it!

Will M
07-27-2011, 02:30 PM
doesn't this deal help the 2011 Cards even if it hurts long term?

IMO the Reds have a lot of hurdles to climb this year: 5 games back, 3 teams ahead of them & those teams are also trying to make deals.

LvJ
07-27-2011, 02:33 PM
Cardinals didn't get Eric Thames but instead Cory Patterson? Haha, okay. Have fun.

SirFelixCat
07-27-2011, 02:36 PM
Enjoy, folks :) (http://gatewayredbirds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=46449)

Hollcat
07-27-2011, 02:37 PM
Cards are ridiculously thin in the OF now. Prior to the trade, they had 4 OFs on the 25 man: Holliday, Rasmus, Berkman and Jon Jay.

Lance Berkman is having shoulder trouble. Jay is a nice player, but he's probably not going to sustain that .350 BABIP. Expecting Jay to continue to put up an .800 OPS is not a smart risk. His peripherals suggest more like .275/.330/.400. He's a solid defender, so he's not a bad player and quite possibly more productive than Rasmus at this point.

On top of that, I'm not sure who they're replacing. Westbrook is probably the odd man out, but he's not been horrible (4.86 ERA, 1.50 WHIP). Edwin Jackson tends to be a ground ball guy as well. He'll miss more bats than Westbrook, but he's something like a 0.5 win upgrade, maybe 1 win.

Rasmus may not have been tearing it up, but I don't see this as a big improvement for them. They're upgrading the starters by a little but exposing themselves to quite a bit of depth related risk.

I can understand Reds fan frustration, but if activity is just there to ship out a malcontent, it's not something we should be terribly jealous about.

From what I have heard the idea is to move McClellan back to the bullpen. He has fallen off somewhat from a very good start and they fell it will only get worse if he keeps pilng up innings beyond what he has pitched previously

Always Red
07-27-2011, 02:39 PM
Always great to see a division rival get ripped off, even better when it's the Cardinals. Colby Rasmus for Edwin Jackson and relievers? I love it!

Does that mean Rasmus turns into Austin Kearns now?

757690
07-27-2011, 02:43 PM
Enjoy, folks :) (http://gatewayredbirds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=46449)

‪Schadenfreude‬‏ - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCQGQ5qBQTA&feature=related)

RedsManRick
07-27-2011, 02:56 PM
Enjoy, folks :) (http://gatewayredbirds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=46449)


The trade: Colby Rasmus, Trever Miller, Brian Tallet and P.J. Walters for Jackson, Marc Rzepczynski, Dotel and Corey Patterson

I didn't realize they'd get Patterson. OF depth issue solved!

IslandRed
07-27-2011, 03:00 PM
Other than making LaRussa happy, I'm having a hard time seeing how this makes the Cardinals significantly better. Different, yes, but not better.

smith288
07-27-2011, 03:01 PM
Any bets that Corey Patterson become perennial all-star now that the cardinals have him??

PuffyPig
07-27-2011, 03:02 PM
Unbelievably bad trade for the Cards.

2 months of Jackson and some bullpen fillers for a long term solution in CF?

Maybe Cards are better off this year, but what a price to pay for having no depth in their minor league system.

Caveat Emperor
07-27-2011, 03:03 PM
Pretty amazing the sway TLR has with the St. Louis front office -- if he doesn't like a guy, the team will find a way to get rid of him.

Ramsus has a chance to be a very good player, and they basically did little more than non-tender the dude.

PuffyPig
07-27-2011, 03:05 PM
Any bets that Corey Patterson become perennial all-star now that the cardinals have him??


The Cards do not make all satr out of poor position players.

See Lopez, Feliz, Punto, Descalso,Winn etc.

They actually tend to suck even more once they go to the Cards.

Hollcat
07-27-2011, 03:09 PM
I dont see patterson becoming an all star but it wouldn't surprise me at all to see him beat the reds a time or two while wearing the bird suit.

Dan
07-27-2011, 03:29 PM
If Berkman is out for any length of time with this shoulder issue and they trade Rasmus, that's going to be one weak offense.

Well, they ARE getting Corey Patterson back in the deal. :laugh:

Big Klu
07-27-2011, 03:31 PM
Does this mean that Corey Patterson is now dating Tony LaRussa's daughter?

http://i56.tinypic.com/20pqc2f.jpg

mdccclxix
07-27-2011, 03:33 PM
Wow, not enough for a 3 (I think he can reach 5-6wins) win player with 3+ years of control.

dougdirt
07-27-2011, 03:43 PM
Do people still think that the Reds have a shot at winning the central? Do the math. If any of the teams go 3 games over .500 the rest of the way, the Reds have to go 37-22 to finish 1 game ahead of them. That isn't going to happen no matter who we add. It is over guys. Don't make a stupid move in order to "do something". The Cardinals just did and are very likely to regret it.

Matt700wlw
07-27-2011, 03:44 PM
Does this mean that Corey Patterson is now dating Tony LaRussa's daughter?

http://i56.tinypic.com/20pqc2f.jpg

Bless his heart if he is

:eek:

757690
07-27-2011, 03:51 PM
Do people still think that the Reds have a shot at winning the central? Do the math. If any of the teams go 3 games over .500 the rest of the way, the Reds have to go 37-22 to finish 1 game ahead of them. That isn't going to happen no matter who we add. It is over guys. Don't make a stupid move in order to "do something". The Cardinals just did and are very likely to regret it.

I think it's possible any of the four teams in contention could go 37-22, or even 40-19, or even better. All it takes is one 12-2 streak or something like it to make that possible.

In fact, I think one of the four will do something like that, and that is who will win the Central.

But I agree with your main point. Don't do something just to do something, that always results in something like what the Cards just did.

mdccclxix
07-27-2011, 03:53 PM
Do people still think that the Reds have a shot at winning the central? Do the math. If any of the teams go 3 games over .500 the rest of the way, the Reds have to go 37-22 to finish 1 game ahead of them. That isn't going to happen no matter who we add. It is over guys. Don't make a stupid move in order to "do something". The Cardinals just did and are very likely to regret it.


Yeah, the ship has sailed, I agree Doug. I'm pulling almost every prospect off the table unless it's a huge win for the Reds a la Toronto's win over St. Louis.

Benihana
07-27-2011, 03:55 PM
I am surprised that's all Rasmus could fetch. Maybe the Cardinals, and many other teams, have no faith that he can turn around his struggles this year, and his purported attitude problems just spill fuel on the fire. Is he Austin Kearns redux?

Benihana
07-27-2011, 03:57 PM
Yeah, the ship has sailed, I agree Doug. I'm pulling almost every prospect off the table unless it's a huge win for the Reds a la Toronto's win over St. Louis.

Except for the fact that this is where shrewd GMs earn their coin. I'd be offering Wood and any three current minor leaguers other than Mez for Jimenez, and the same for Shields.

And I'd be trading Hernandez to the Giants at the same time.

Positions the team much better for the future while not "waving the white flag" for this year, no matter how much you believe the season is lost.

I(heart)Freel
07-27-2011, 04:00 PM
Enjoy, folks :) (http://gatewayredbirds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=46449)

For that link, I am forever in your debt. Talk about cheering a Reds fan up on a cloudy day!

Is it me or are the Cards and Brews trying to top each other to see who can go all-in more this season?

Any and all decisions by Walt and the FO this week MUST be with 2012-13 in mind. Must.

PuffyPig
07-27-2011, 04:00 PM
Walt has made it very clear that any trade he does has to help us also next year.

So, if we get a starter, it isn't just a 2 month rental.

Redsfan320
07-27-2011, 04:05 PM
For that link, I am forever in your debt. Talk about cheering a Reds fan up on a cloudy day!

Indeed. That's awesome.

320

Puffy
07-27-2011, 04:11 PM
Does this mean that Corey Patterson is now dating Tony LaRussa's daughter?

http://i56.tinypic.com/20pqc2f.jpg

That's not Tony LaRussa's daughter. That is Gina Carano (daughter of former NFL QB Glenn Carano and MMA fighter).

Big Klu
07-27-2011, 04:21 PM
That's not Tony LaRussa's daughter. That is Gina Carano (daughter of former NFL QB Glenn Carano and MMA fighter).

Sorry. When I Googled her, that's the picture I got. Again, sorry about the misinformation.

REDREAD
07-27-2011, 04:23 PM
Sorry. When I Googled her, that's the picture I got. Again, sorry about the misinformation.

Darn it, I have a blind date with LaRussa's daughter this weekend.. you got my hopes up falsely :thumbdown:

:laugh:

Matt700wlw
07-27-2011, 04:25 PM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-JTnpHkY4yjo/TcEThf58COI/AAAAAAAABb0/2plQWVtrxZA/s1600/tonylarussadaughter2.jpg

This is Tony LaRussa's daughter.

Patrick Bateman
07-27-2011, 04:45 PM
So the price of Jackson + Teahen was Jason Frasor.

Yet the Cardinals went out and spent Rasmus to get Jackson, and some non-material stuff.

I'm sure there was a better way to get Jackson then to trade Rasmus (ie. The Jays did it quite easily). Really poor GMing by Mozeliak. Absolutely nothing to be jealous of.

redsmetz
07-27-2011, 04:48 PM
From a Blue Jays board on the trade was this gem: "this is a steal! any other potenial 5 tool players in the league having problems with managment!? "

http://forum.okbluejays.com/index.php?topic=2073.0

fearofpopvol1
07-27-2011, 04:50 PM
I don't think the Cards would have traded Rasmus to the Reds for similar value, but I sure would have loved to of put Rasmus in LF. It sounds like Travis Wood, Carlos Fisher and Jerry Gil would've gotten it done. I would've done that in a heartbeat.

Patrick Bateman
07-27-2011, 04:55 PM
I don't think the Cards would have traded Rasmus to the Reds for similar value, but I sure would have loved to of put Rasmus in LF. It sounds like Travis Wood, Carlos Fisher and Jerry Gil would've gotten it done. I would've done that in a heartbeat.

Don't think they would have traded within the division.

Tom Servo
07-27-2011, 04:58 PM
Between this deal and picking up Yunel Escobar last year for A-Gon, the Jays are stock piling some real talent for next to nothing.

Brutus
07-27-2011, 05:00 PM
Between this deal and picking up Yunel Escobar last year for A-Gon, the Jays are stock piling some real talent for next to nothing.

Especially considering they tripped and fell into Jose Bautista.

Strikes Out Looking
07-27-2011, 05:01 PM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-JTnpHkY4yjo/TcEThf58COI/AAAAAAAABb0/2plQWVtrxZA/s1600/tonylarussadaughter2.jpg

This is Tony LaRussa's daughter.

C-Patt appears to be a very lucky man for the next 60 days.

blumj
07-27-2011, 05:13 PM
So the price of Jackson + Teahen was Jason Frasor.

Yet the Cardinals went out and spent Rasmus to get Jackson, and some non-material stuff.

I'm sure there was a better way to get Jackson then to trade Rasmus (ie. The Jays did it quite easily). Really poor GMing by Mozeliak. Abo****ely nothing to be jealous of.
The White Sox don't exactly come off like geniuses here, either. Alex Anthopolous is obviously a mind control practitioner, don't forget about the unloading of the Vernon Wells contract.

Patrick Bateman
07-27-2011, 05:14 PM
The White Sox don't exactly come off like geniuses here, either. Alex Anthopolous is obviously a mind control practitioner, don't forget about the unloading of the Vernon Wells contract.

I just tend to ignore what KW does now!

Caveman Techie
07-27-2011, 05:14 PM
I can't believe that is all it took to get Rasmus from the Cards. TLR, should be fired just for driving the price down on a top flight prospect/young player by bashing that player in the media.

Brutus
07-27-2011, 05:24 PM
I can't believe that is all it took to get Rasmus from the Cards. TLR, should be fired just for driving the price down on a top flight prospect/young player by bashing that player in the media.

Their GM actually made it worse. He didn't help matters when he publicly took a shot at Rasmus too.

Puffy
07-27-2011, 05:29 PM
Sorry. When I Googled her, that's the picture I got. Again, sorry about the misinformation.

No need to apologize. Just next time you post a picture of my future ex-wife make sure you call her by her real name.....Gina Carano Puffy.

Edd Roush
07-27-2011, 05:30 PM
Any way the Reds could try to trade with the Jays for Rasmus now or does he fit in Toronto for the forseeable future?

757690
07-27-2011, 07:31 PM
Does anyone think Rasmus could have gotten Heath Bell and Harang? would that be better than what the Cards got?

Always Red
07-27-2011, 07:40 PM
Does anyone think Rasmus could have gotten Heath Bell and Harang? would that be better than what the Cards got?

Cards may still wind up with Bell...

Slyder
07-27-2011, 08:16 PM
I don't think the Cards would have traded Rasmus to the Reds for similar value, but I sure would have loved to of put Rasmus in LF. It sounds like Travis Wood, Carlos Fisher and Jerry Gil would've gotten it done. I would've done that in a heartbeat.

I would be on the phone with Toronto right now and seeing if I could get Rasmus in Cincy if for any other reason to piss off Tony. What is Rasmus' contract status?

MikeThierry
07-27-2011, 08:17 PM
I have mixed feelings on the trade. Its good for the Cards short term but long term... mehh...

It was clear though that they needed a starter. Jackson, with the help of Dave Duncan, I think will thrive in St. Louis. The big key to this deal though is the left handed reliever who I'm not even going to begin to spell correctly. Left handed relievers have been abysmal in the Cards pen this year. If you look at his numbers, esp. pitching in the AL East, this is a significant upgrade in the Cards pen. Furthermore, they control him for several more years. This also puts McClellan back in the bullpen who was very good. McClellan is one of those right handed pitchers who has a very weird statistical oddity of having better splits against left handed hitters vs. right handed hitters. This move significantly improves the Cardinals bullpen, which has been the Achilles Heal for the Cards all season. I think if this is going to be the Cards last season with Pujols, they have to do everything they can to put a winning team on the field. From this aspect, I like the trade.

As far as the future goes, I hate the trade. Colby has too much talent and it could bite the Cards. That said, the Cards get three players to be named later plus draft picks if the guys they got don't sign. Furthermore, I think Jackson is only a couple of wins away from becoming a Type A free agent so if he doesn't sign, the Cards get two first round draft choices. I really don't think you can have enough draft choices so from that aspect I guess it is good.

It was also mentioned earlier about the outfielders. Yes it does technically weaken us a bit but I like what Jay has done this year and Allen Craig will be coming back from the DL next week. If there was one area where the Cards could afford to give up talent within their system it was the outfield. I don't think it will be as much as a concern as everyone is making it out to be.

757690
07-27-2011, 08:21 PM
Cards may still wind up with Bell...

With what? Garcia? Molina? Pujols?

MikeThierry
07-27-2011, 08:21 PM
With what? Garcia? Molina? Pujols?

The Padres would take either Shelby Miller or Carlos Martinez in a heartbeat for Bell.

757690
07-27-2011, 08:22 PM
The Padres would take either Shelby Miller or Carlos Martinez in a heartbeat for Bell.

Would you, as a Card fan, be okay with that?

MikeThierry
07-27-2011, 08:24 PM
Would you, as a Card fan, be okay with that?

Absolutely not. To me those are two untouchables within the organization. All I'm saying is that getting Heath Bell is possible if the Cards wanted to pull an atomic bomb option. The Cards have done a very good job of rebuilding their system so I don't know if they want to get to the point of depleting it again.

757690
07-27-2011, 08:26 PM
Absolutely not. To me those are two untouchables within the organization. All I'm saying is that getting Heath Bell is possible if the Cards wanted to pull an atomic bomb option. The Cards have done a very good job of rebuilding their system so I don't know if they want to get to the point of depleting it again.

Sounds good. Welcome back. Been awhile. :)

Brutus
07-27-2011, 08:28 PM
Absolutely not. To me those are two untouchables within the organization. All I'm saying is that getting Heath Bell is possible if the Cards wanted to pull an atomic bomb option. The Cards have done a very good job of rebuilding their system so I don't know if they want to get to the point of depleting it again.

Baseball America had the Cardinals' system ranked No. 24 to start the season. So apparently there's still not too much there :)

As far as the outfield depth, I agree with that in general. However, Jon Jay better be as good in an everyday role as people are expecting, or it could be somewhat problematic.

Edwin Jackson isn't going to be around long enough for Dave Duncan to work miracles, nor is it accurate to assume Duncan will fix every Tom, Dick or Harry that comes through the system. Jackson is on his 4th team now and he seems like one those guys that doesn't have what it takes in the head to ever realize his full potential.

PuffyPig
07-27-2011, 08:28 PM
I That said, the Cards get three players to be named later plus draft picks if the guys they got don't sign. Furthermore, I think Jackson is only a couple of wins away from becoming a Type A free agent so if he doesn't sign, the Cards get two first round draft choices. I really don't think you can have enough draft choices so from that aspect I guess it is good.



You only get draft picks if you offer arbitration.

Not a certainty, especially if Jackson is an A type, which makes it more unlikely someone sacrifices their first round pick to sign him. And you don't offer guys like Dotel arbitration.

I agree that the Cards are better this year.

But their lack of depth at the major and minor league levels meant they had to trade their cheap, and pretty good, CF to help fill out the back of the rotation and the middle part of their bullpen. That's quite the long term cost.

Brutus
07-27-2011, 08:30 PM
You only get draft picks if you offer arbitration.

Not a certainty, especially if Jackson is an A type, which makes it more unlikely someone sacrifices their first round pick to sign him. And you don't offer guys like Dotel arbitration.


It should be noted that if a player signs elsewhere before the arbitration filing deadline, arbitration need not be offered to receive the compensation. Of course, as you pointed out, guys like Jackson make teams hesitant to sign in November until they see whether or not the club will offer arbitration.

PuffyPig
07-27-2011, 08:31 PM
Edwin Jackson isn't going to be around long enough for Dave Duncan to work miracles, nor is it accurate to assume Duncan will fix every Tom, Dick or Harry that comes through the system.

Dave Duncan had much better success "fixing pitchers" when he had world class defense to make them look better than they really were.

MikeThierry
07-27-2011, 08:37 PM
Baseball America had the Cardinals' system ranked No. 24 to start the season. So apparently there's still not too much there

I think the emergence of players like Matt Adams, Carlos Martinez, and Tyrell Jenkins (just to name a few) plus some of the Latin American players they have signed will make that rank significantly better than it was at the beginning of the year.

Brutus, I think the reason why scouts have never been too high on Jon Jay is because he has a supposed hitch in his swing. However, he has played himself into the starting lineup this year and it is a situation where the guy has worked his butt off to improve his defense and adjust to major league hitting.

I think what might be lost in all of this is Colby really going to be a superstar? There are a lot of people who are high on his projection but I just don't know if this guy has the mental make-up to be a superstar player. It has been frustrating as heck seeing him play this year. He has all the talent in the world but it just seem something is just missing. I just don't know if he is capable of getting much better. The Cards may have given up on him at the right time where his stock was still very high but clubs haven't figured out that he is JD Drew lite. Plus the Cards wash their hands away from his father issues. Good luck with the Jays on that front.

Bottom line, I'll wait for the future tomorrow. The Cards have a chance to win this pathetic division and in the last year of Pujols being on the team, we can't wait around for potential.

MikeThierry
07-27-2011, 08:38 PM
Dave Duncan had much better success "fixing pitchers" when he had world class defense to make them look better than they really were.

Thank god TLR is starting to use Theriot in a platoon role now. It was fine when he was hitting .300. His "defense" was manageable. Now that he can't hit anything out from the infield, Descalso has taken his place.

Griffey012
07-27-2011, 09:26 PM
I think the emergence of players like Matt Adams, Carlos Martinez, and Tyrell Jenkins (just to name a few) plus some of the Latin American players they have signed will make that rank significantly better than it was at the beginning of the year.

Brutus, I think the reason why scouts have never been too high on Jon Jay is because he has a supposed hitch in his swing. However, he has played himself into the starting lineup this year and it is a situation where the guy has worked his butt off to improve his defense and adjust to major league hitting.

I think what might be lost in all of this is Colby really going to be a superstar? There are a lot of people who are high on his projection but I just don't know if this guy has the mental make-up to be a superstar player. It has been frustrating as heck seeing him play this year. He has all the talent in the world but it just seem something is just missing. I just don't know if he is capable of getting much better. The Cards may have given up on him at the right time where his stock was still very high but clubs haven't figured out that he is JD Drew lite. Plus the Cards wash their hands away from his father issues. Good luck with the Jays on that front.

Bottom line, I'll wait for the future tomorrow. The Cards have a chance to win this pathetic division and in the last year of Pujols being on the team, we can't wait around for potential.

Looking at Rasmus season last year it is a near mirror image to Jay Bruce's on the offensive side, Bruce got a big leg up on the defensive side, but personally Rasmus has looked like a pretty good defender. Plus he is playing CF as compared to RF.

This year Rasmus is hitting .246/.332/.420 where Bruce is hitting .264/.342/.490. Take out the monsterous month of May and Bruce has been struggling at the plate. Yet Jocketty locked Bruce up to a contract extension before the season, and will not trade him, but is using him to build the team around. There is still no clear indication Bruce will meet his potential. But there is absolutely no way you trade him for a slightly above average starting pitcher, CPatterson, Dotel, and Repckjfdajf.

You could have had an Edwin Jackson type for much, much less than Rasmus.
I can bet Jocketty would not trade Bruce straight up for Ubaldo Jimenez.

Not to mention, are you going to resign Berkman next season? Holiday, Rasmus, Jay makes for a darn good outfielder. Of course as long as TLR is not at the helm to run Colby out of town.

CarolinaRedleg
07-27-2011, 09:49 PM
So, does losing Rasmus and gaining Patterson turn the Cardinals' offense, in the words of Rasmus, into "Doo Doo?"

MikeThierry
07-27-2011, 10:02 PM
Looking at Rasmus season last year it is a near mirror image to Jay Bruce's on the offensive side, Bruce got a big leg up on the defensive side, but personally Rasmus has looked like a pretty good defender. Plus he is playing CF as compared to RF.

This year Rasmus is hitting .246/.332/.420 where Bruce is hitting .264/.342/.490. Take out the monsterous month of May and Bruce has been struggling at the plate. Yet Jocketty locked Bruce up to a contract extension before the season, and will not trade him, but is using him to build the team around. There is still no clear indication Bruce will meet his potential. But there is absolutely no way you trade him for a slightly above average starting pitcher, CPatterson, Dotel, and Repckjfdajf.

You could have had an Edwin Jackson type for much, much less than Rasmus.
I can bet Jocketty would not trade Bruce straight up for Ubaldo Jimenez.

Not to mention, are you going to resign Berkman next season? Holiday, Rasmus, Jay makes for a darn good outfielder. Of course as long as TLR is not at the helm to run Colby out of town.

I think your mistake though is thinking Rasmus is equivalent of a player as Bruce is. I think it is a mistake comparing both of them. Rasmus will never live up to his full potential here in St. Louis, even with TLR gone. There is too much pressure from the fan base and the guy is just not a mentally tough player. Remember, the guy he replaced is Jim Edmonds and there is just too much expectation for Rasmus to produce both offensively and defensively at the level that Edmonds brought to the table. I also think people overrate Rasmus on his defense. Rasmus has a -15 UZR/150 this year. That was even worse than his -9 UZR/150 he has last year. That is compared to the 7 UZR 150 Jon Jay has this season. Jay has been a superior CF than Colby this year. With Jay his defense is improving while, sad to say, Rasmus seems to be slipping.

I think the big thing with this deal is the bullpen. This move significantly, its not even close, improves the Cardinals bullpen. Marc Rzepczynski is excellent against left handed batters which is something the Cards didn't have this year. For the Cards to win this year, they needed to address the problems in the bullpen.

I think Rasmus sort of ran himself out of the town. From the whole idea of him asking for a trade last year to him ignoring coaches, its clear that he would not work here. TLR pretty much went out of his way to compliment Rasmus most of this year. When he stopped listening to coaches though, that would rub any manager the wrong way. Tell me, if Dusty Baker had a player come up to him and demand a trade while at the same time not listening to coaches, what do you think Baker's reaction would be? I'm not sure any MLB manager would put up with that. I know some here think that TLR is the devil incarnate but I think TLR's opinions on this issue are justified.

Benihana
07-27-2011, 10:23 PM
No one has said it, but I'd expect at least one of the ptbnls to be one of the Jays FOUR first/sandwich picks from 2010. Might change things a bit if Deck McGuire et al end up in the deal, much like Skaggs in the Haren deal.

Orenda
07-27-2011, 10:30 PM
What is the situation with the Blue Jays in terms of contracts, did they completely manage to get out from under the Alex Rios and Vernon Wells deals?

WVRed
07-27-2011, 10:37 PM
The Padres would take either Shelby Miller or Carlos Martinez in a heartbeat for Bell.

And the Phillies and Rangers would likely trump the offer.

Tom Servo
07-27-2011, 10:50 PM
What is the situation with the Blue Jays in terms of contracts, did they completely manage to get out from under the Alex Rios and Vernon Wells deals?
White Sox picked Rios up off of waivers, taking his whole contract. Wells was sent to Anaheim and so the Angels are paying the money on the rest of his contract.

PuffyPig
07-27-2011, 10:58 PM
And the Phillies and Rangers would likely trump the offer.

I doubt anyone would give up more than Shelby Miller for Bell, or even as much as Shelby Miller.

MikeThierry
07-27-2011, 11:17 PM
I doubt anyone would give up more than Shelby Miller for Bell, or even as much as Shelby Miller.

Well if people think getting rid of Colby Rasmus was a bad idea, Shelby Miller for Bell would be an automatic firing for the Cards GM in my opinion.

MattyHo4Life
07-28-2011, 03:36 PM
And the Phillies and Rangers would likely trump the offer.

If that's true, then I'd get the Phillies and Rangers GMs on the phone right now if I was the Padres GM. Make that deal and send Bell to Philly or Texas ASAP.

MattyHo4Life
07-28-2011, 03:42 PM
Last year, I really liked the Westbrook/Ludwick deal even though most fans did not. I still like that deal. This deal... not so much. Having said that, I dont think the deal is as bad as many people are saying.

My question, is why wasn't a team offering a better deal than this for Rasmus? Rasmus is a young player with a good contract and a very high ceiling. There are questions if he will ever live up ot his potential though.

I don't think this trade is a statement that the Cardinals could only offer Major League talent to upgrade their team. Instead, this is a statement that they were tired of the issues with Rasmus and his father. To be honest, I am tired of hearing Tony Rasmus' comments. This deal could really benefit the Cardinals this year though. I'm just surprised there weren't better offers out there.

Tony Cloninger
07-28-2011, 08:23 PM
Last year, I really liked the Westbrook/Ludwick deal even though most fans did not. I still like that deal. This deal... not so much. Having said that, I dont think the deal is as bad as many people are saying.

My question, is why wasn't a team offering a better deal than this for Rasmus? Rasmus is a young player with a good contract and a very high ceiling. There are questions if he will ever live up ot his potential though.

I don't think this trade is a statement that the Cardinals could only offer Major League talent to upgrade their team. Instead, this is a statement that they were tired of the issues with Rasmus and his father. To be honest, I am tired of hearing Tony Rasmus' comments. This deal could really benefit the Cardinals this year though. I'm just surprised there weren't better offers out there.


I would imagine there is the truth somewhere in the middle....but Colby's dad makes Piersall's father look like a great dad.

MikeThierry
07-28-2011, 08:27 PM
I would imagine there is the truth somewhere in the middle....but Colby's dad makes Piersall's father look like a great dad.

Totally agree. This is part of the problem. The thing with trading Rasmus is you get his father in the process. This guy was actually found in Busch Stadium throwing BP to Rasmus and doing other things. What organization would actually put up with that stuff? He is the pure definition of a father that is living vicariously through his son. Unfortunately, until Colby tells his father to stop messing around in his life, I think he will still not mature as a player. Part of the issue is him listening to his father for advice and listening to Cardinals coaches for advice. There becomes a point where it can confuse a young, immature player. I wish Colby all the luck in the world but it was a move the Cards had to do in my opinion. I also wish Toronto luck in dealing with Tony Rasmus.

Tony Cloninger
07-28-2011, 08:37 PM
Totally agree. This is part of the problem. The thing with trading Rasmus is you get his father in the process. This guy was actually found in Busch Stadium throwing BP to Rasmus and doing other things. What organization would actually put up with that stuff? He is the pure definition of a father that is living vicariously through his son. Unfortunately, until Colby tells his father to stop messing around in his life, I think he will still not mature as a player. Part of the issue is him listening to his father for advice and listening to Cardinals coaches for advice. There becomes a point where it can confuse a young, immature player. I wish Colby all the luck in the world but it was a move the Cards had to do in my opinion. I also wish Toronto luck in dealing with Tony Rasmus.

If you go on some Cards boards though.....man they are going nuts more often than not.

MikeThierry
07-28-2011, 08:39 PM
If you go on some Cards boards though.....man they are going nuts more often than not.

Why do you think I come here on a regular basis? Most of those boards are filled with a bunch of idiots that have no perspective. With every single loss by the Cards, its either fire TLR or our season is done. If I want to go to forums that are filled by people who were raised in barns, I'll go there. I come here for intelligent baseball discussion and measured baseball thought.

Cedric
07-28-2011, 08:53 PM
I thank the lord everyday that the Reds don't have Mozeliak as GM.

He is trying to rapidly sink that organization.

MikeThierry
07-28-2011, 08:57 PM
I thank the lord everyday that the Reds don't have Mozeliak as GM.

He is trying to rapidly sink that organization.

I think he has actually done a good job in rebuilding the Cards farm system after being depleted all those years under Walt. On some of the trades he could be criticized for (IE Kaleal Greene) but moves getting Matt Holliday, signing a supposed washed up Lance Berkman, and others have been good moves for the organization.

One thing to put into perspective is that Mozeliak has something to deal with that many organizations in baseball don't have to put up with, in fact I can't think of one. A manager that has tons of power within the organization. Mozeliak has to do a balancing act of pleasing LaRussa and Duncan while at the same time making logical moves that help the club.