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View Full Version : Dusty on Hot Seat if the Reds drop 4 to Mets?



Wheelhouse
07-27-2011, 10:24 PM
I know it's just 4 games, but the Mets are no powerhouse and the Reds have been chronic underachievers this year. Feels like Dusty cant get more than 70 cents on the dollar. Time for a change?

dougdirt
07-27-2011, 10:36 PM
What I voted for and what I think should be are two different things. I don't think Dusty will be on the hot seat, but I think that he should be.

cincrazy
07-27-2011, 10:37 PM
I wouldn't be SHOCKED if Dusty were fired this offseason, but I would be surprised. I think it's more likely his seat becomes very toasty if the team comes out of the game next year and underperforms a great deal. Dusty's going before Walt, we know that for sure.

nemesis
07-27-2011, 10:57 PM
Dusty only got a 2 year extension in the offseason and was looking for more.

I had a feeling when all that came about the FO wasn't completely sold on him.

I.E. Walt didn't necessarily feel like he was his guy or the right guy. But you can't fire the 1st manager to get you to the postseason in 11 years.

The bread on the butter says this... ( I know what I typed old family joke.)

Dusty has losing seasons in 3 out of his 4 years here. His teams are playing flat and uninterested. He has pushed the wrong button more and more frequently lately and I think this wreaks of pressure.

He kept telling the public and media the team was about to break out and win 8 10 or 12 in a row. Instead the team went over a calender month without winning 2 in a row and might be in the swirl of a long losing streak.

Dusty's act is as tired as Marvin Lewis. Bakermetrics as much as we love to joke, argue and debate about them have proven 1 thing... It doesn't consistently produce a winner. As big of a A as LaRussa is, he has adapted his managerial style and keeps winning and winning and winning. Something Baker refuses to do. (Adapt)

Dusty won't go before the season is gone, but if they finish as poorly as they are playing now, he won't be in the dugout next year.

Brutus
07-27-2011, 11:02 PM
I don't like either of the two options. But I think it depends what happens the rest of the year moreso than what's happening currently.

Plus Plus
07-27-2011, 11:04 PM
Dusty only got a 2 year extension in the offseason and was looking for more.

I had a feeling when all that came about the FO wasn't completely sold on him.

I.E. Walt didn't necessarily feel like he was his guy or the right guy. But you can't fire the 1st manager to get you to the postseason in 11 years.

The bread on the butter says this... ( I know what I typed old family joke.)

Dusty has losing seasons in 3 out of his 4 years here. His teams are playing flat and uninterested. He has pushed the wrong button more and more frequently lately and I think this wreaks of pressure.

He kept telling the public and media the team was about to break out and win 8 10 or 12 in a row. Instead the team went over a calender month without winning 2 in a row and might be in the swirl of a long losing streak.

Dusty's act is as tired as Marvin Lewis. Bakermetrics as much as we love to joke, argue and debate about them have proven 1 thing... It doesn't consistently produce a winner. As big of a A as LaRussa is, he has adapted his managerial style and keeps winning and winning and winning. Something Baker refuses to do. (Adapt)

Dusty won't go before the season is gone, but if they finish as poorly as they are playing now, he won't be in the dugout next year.

+1. Unless this team starts playing up to their (perceived) talent level, Baker could be in hot water this winter.

reds1869
07-27-2011, 11:04 PM
I think Walt will show little patience if the season spirals out of control.

Tony Cloninger
07-27-2011, 11:14 PM
He called out basically the FO and ownership, IMO earlier today after the trades made.

"There’s some level of frustration in here because the the rich teams get richer at this time of year,” Baker said. “They usually do something this time of year. They usually did something when Walt was there.”

Jocketty said the Reds continue to talk to clubs about deals.

“Probably nothing will happen until Sunday at noon,” Jocketty said. “Then there will be a bunch of deals.”


This guy basically cannot see how the cards trading what they did for what they got...is really not much of anything ....and it was barely even about any money at all.

This guy basically will toss anyone else other than himself in regards to any blame for the way his teams are playing.

Maybe some will not see it as what he said...as what I think he was saying....but I do think this manager has made excuses about "Not being his team" in 2008.... now it has nothing to do with what he does, it's everyone else.

KronoRed
07-27-2011, 11:15 PM
This team could use a shake up, getting rid of every players best buddy for a different approach might be worth a try.

Mets aren't a bad team though, they just don't have the good fortune to play in a bad division.

Kc61
07-27-2011, 11:27 PM
I think Walt will show little patience if the season spirals out of control.

This is the problem: the FO may not be realizing that the season has spiraled out of control. Four games under .500 with over 100 games played is the record of a bad ball club. Add to that being in fourth place, with three teams to overtake and you have a terrible season.

Then look at the very recent situation, likely to lose another homestand, dropping three in a row to the Mets.

That is a season that has spiraled out of control.

I like Dusty, but the team is inept right now. They can't even play defense anymore. This is their strongest suit.

Sometimes I wonder if Scott Rolen is the most important figure on the club. His absence seems to destroy the ballclub's abilities.

I don't know whether Dusty should be fired. I do know that serious changes are needed.

This thing isn't going to get fixed automatically.

toledodan
07-27-2011, 11:44 PM
i think both the hitting and pitching coachs need to go.

alexad
07-28-2011, 12:00 AM
I have felt for a month Dusty should go. There is no excitement on this team. Dusty has shown he can not handle the youth.

We need a guy in here like Sweet Lou. Get everyone fired up to want to play. A guy like Sparky. Those guys won. The laid back guys have never gotten the Reds anywhere.

I can not believe I am going to say this but Tracey Jones would be a great manager for this team. He would tell you like it is.

The Reds need a leader to manage and be the face of this team.

remdog
07-28-2011, 12:19 AM
Does anyone think that someone in manager's seat like Kirk Gibson could light a fire under this team?

I do.

Dusty is too busy being laid back, chewing toothpicks and wearing sweatbands as though he's actually doing something.

Rem

alexad
07-28-2011, 12:23 AM
Does anyone think that someone in manager's seat like Kirk Gibson could light a fire under this team?

I do.

Dusty is too busy being laid back, chewing toothpicks and wearing sweatbands as though he's actually doing something.

Rem

I agree Rem.

RedsManRick
07-28-2011, 12:29 AM
Managers don't get fired mid-season for losing. They get fired for losing the clubhouse. Often those go hand-in-hand, but I don't see any indication of the latter.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-28-2011, 12:29 AM
Dusty is not going anywhere. He has the safest and cushiest gig in MLB. Nobody expects much in Cincy. Win one year and you're set for a few.

And he gets paid a bunch too.

Good gig.

nemesis
07-28-2011, 12:31 AM
I can not believe I am going to say this but Tracey Jones would be a great manager for this team. He would tell you like it is.

I don't think the team would take him seriously nor would he himself.

I would like to see Bobby Valentine or Bob Brenly get another shot.

I would want someone out of house.

No Rick Sweet or Chris Spiers.

Tony Cloninger
07-28-2011, 12:42 AM
Managers don't get fired mid-season for losing. They get fired for losing the clubhouse. Often those go hand-in-hand, but I don't see any indication of the latter.

You don't think they look like a team that has quit? Rolled over? Resigned to it's fate without much effort?

WVRedsFan
07-28-2011, 01:48 AM
I really don't blame Dusty as much as the front office. The idiotic idea that they could count on Paul Janish to be a MLB shortstop was stupid. THe belief that Jonny Gomes was all that was twice so. The confidence that Jay Bruce and Stubbs along with Votto could carry this club was foolish. Then there was the "fingers crossed" belief tHat Edinson Volquez could actually pitch as a number one starter. Starting him on opening day was laughable. All that and more was ill conceived and wishing and hoping. Time was early on to get a bat and a real ace. The result is 4 under .500. And fourth place.

Blame Dusty if you want, but too much wishing and hoping and not enough action from the FO is to blame.

HokieRed
07-28-2011, 02:01 AM
I've had confidence in Walt, but, along with WVRedsFan, I cannot understand how anybody thought Volquez could be this team's number one starter. That, and the Arroyo contract, have really undermined Jocketty in my view, so I blame the FO as much as Dusty. At the beginning of the season, I thought there was one way for them to repeat: Homer to really emerge and Wood to repeat what he did last year. Homer's pitched well but hasn't been healthy enough to put together a big season and Wood's done very little. Without them, Dusty's had no chance to have better than a .500 club.

Captain Hook
07-28-2011, 02:02 AM
Managers don't get fired mid-season for losing. They get fired for losing the clubhouse. Often those go hand-in-hand, but I don't see any indication of the latter.

Maybe he hasn't lost the clubhouse but the clubhouse is definitely lost.I think a change could do some good.

reds44
07-28-2011, 02:03 AM
No.

icehole3
07-28-2011, 05:07 AM
I think all the player moves on the field are Dusty's, if you watch him closely during games he's like a high school cheerleader, he's the one doing all the hoping and wishing, he's the one who flips out when someone questions his stupid lineups, WJ gets some blame too for Janish and Gomes, but I think its Dusty who has the loyalty to players, watching the pre-season rally at the Aronoff Center ealier this year where he had nicknames for all the players, you could see the players just rolling their eyes I think he's headed into an area where he could become a joke to the players, WJ to his credit is at least at this point trying to right the ship, but I think Dusty gets the rest of the year, a strong September and he's gets more time from BCast IMO

mth123
07-28-2011, 06:00 AM
I'm more in the blame Walt camp than blame Dusty, but I think they've done a crummy job from top to bottom. I actually suspect that Dusty is least responsibe for the mess we see of all of them. As WVREDSFAN said very well, this GM has done little to give Dusty what he needs. We criticize his line-ups and but how can you make out a good line-up with Brandon Phillips hitting fourth? He just doesn't have the right horses. Its not a lack of talent, but I'm a big believer that there are jobs to be done on a team and this team is simply lacking in guys who can do certain jobs. They are overloaded with splitty hitters who do well against LHP and not so well aganst RHP. They have decent power throughout the order, but lack the mid-order hammer that makes the line-up work. They have lots of talented kids as candidates for the rotation, but they were lopsided with too many guys who weren't established (or re-established in the case of volquez) in the rotation of a supposed contender.

On the field, Dusty has made a lot of tactical errors, but I'm not a believer that this is really the managaers job. Where was Chris Speir when the Squeeze was ordered with 2 strikes? The starter seems to be left in long enough to lose far too often, where is Bryan Price when these pitching decisions are made? Players are utilized in match ups poorly all too frequently while a guy who might have a better chance is left sitting on the bench (or in AAA), where is the hitting coach when these things are being considered? The Baserunnning on this team is horrible and takes the Reds out of a number of innings. What is Mark Berry doing when guys are getting thrown out at 3rd and home with such frequency? What is Billy Hatcher doing when runners are being picked-off first? About the only guy who doesn't get some obvious balme is Porky Lopez and he's really nothing more than a glorified Bullpen catcher.

I'd be fine with canning Dusty. I wouldn't complain about it. But firing Dusty should be the last move made toward fixing the mess that this regime has become. The entire coaing staff needs to be upgraded IMO and the GM should walk the plank before anybody.

redsfandan
07-28-2011, 07:06 AM
What I voted for and what I think should be are two different things. I don't think Dusty will be on the hot seat, but I think that he should be.
Yep. He's more likely to be here for the duration of his contract than not imo. Unfortunately, I think some of the players would benefit more from a manager that would give them a kick in the pants instead of being their friend.

Griffey012
07-28-2011, 07:19 AM
He called out basically the FO and ownership, IMO earlier today after the trades made.

"There’s some level of frustration in here because the the rich teams get richer at this time of year,” Baker said. “They usually do something this time of year. They usually did something when Walt was there.”

Jocketty said the Reds continue to talk to clubs about deals.

“Probably nothing will happen until Sunday at noon,” Jocketty said. “Then there will be a bunch of deals.”


This guy basically cannot see how the cards trading what they did for what they got...is really not much of anything ....and it was barely even about any money at all.

This guy basically will toss anyone else other than himself in regards to any blame for the way his teams are playing.

Maybe some will not see it as what he said...as what I think he was saying....but I do think this manager has made excuses about "Not being his team" in 2008.... now it has nothing to do with what he does, it's everyone else.

Of course he is mad, the Cardinals got Corey Patterson dude!

On a serious note, this board has been clamoring for going on two years now about Walt's lack of moves, especially this past off-season. For all we know behind the scenes Dusty may have been begging for a LF or SS or pushing for a guy like Hardy in the off-season and he gets Renteria, Lewis, etc. I would be fairly ticked if my job depending on the performance of those guys too.

Dan
07-28-2011, 07:21 AM
What I voted for and what I think should be are two different things. I don't think Dusty will be on the hot seat, but I think that he should be.

This was my thinking as well. "No, but he should be" should be an option. Alas.

cumberlandreds
07-28-2011, 07:46 AM
I am beginning to think this team needs a tough, disciplinarian manager to make them stay focused. Dusty obviously isn't that. I'm not sure who is out there that is that type of manager. But someone in that vein probably needs to manage this team. Dusty just isn't getting it. He loves his vets too much and has no trust whatsoever in any rookies that are brought up. With the plethora of talent that is down on the farm this isn't any place for that type of manager.
I think as long as this team doesn't tank the rest of the season Dusty will be back next season. But it looks like they have quit or nearly so. If this team ends up with close to 90 losses I can't see him coming back nor should he be back.

Unassisted
07-28-2011, 07:58 AM
The Reds need someone good and cheap who isn't a player's manager. They don't need a screamer, like Lou or Buck Showalter or Ray Knight. Bring back Pete Mackanin.

Won't happen during the season, though. Maybe in October?

Always Red
07-28-2011, 08:05 AM
I have a question: The Reds are playing 5 games below their Pythag, how much of that is seen as poor managing, and how much simply bad luck, or just random variation?

I think Dusty will be here until next midseason, at least. If they tank again next year, he's out by the ASG.

icehole3
07-28-2011, 08:25 AM
The Reds need someone good and cheap who isn't a player's manager. They don't need a screamer, like Lou or Buck Showalter or Ray Knight. Bring back Pete Mackanin.

Won't happen during the season, though. Maybe in October?

would love this move :)

Homer Bailey
07-28-2011, 09:49 AM
What I voted for and what I think should be are two different things. I don't think Dusty will be on the hot seat, but I think that he should be.

This.

nate
07-28-2011, 10:13 AM
I have a question: The Reds are playing 5 games below their Pythag, how much of that is seen as poor managing, and how much simply bad luck, or just random variation?

Something like: 20%/30%/50%

Always Red
07-28-2011, 10:27 AM
Something like: 20%/30%/50%

thanks nate. :thumbup:

Wheelhouse
07-28-2011, 04:29 PM
Well the sweep has happened. Re-examine thoughts?

Plus Plus
07-28-2011, 04:32 PM
Announcement coming tomorrow. Baker out, Morgan likely in until the end of the season.

http://twitter.com/#!/JohnnySmith28/status/96673816763301888

This is the same guy who reported the Cozart promotion about 24 hours before any other information. He has deleted all of those tweets, and is obviously a pretty cryptic and loose "source" of information regarding Reds news, but I thought this would be worth bringing up.

dougdirt
07-28-2011, 04:33 PM
http://twitter.com/#!/JohnnySmith28/status/96673816763301888

This is the same guy who reported the Cozart promotion about 24 hours before any other information. He has deleted all of those tweets, and is obviously a pretty cryptic and loose "source" of information regarding Reds news, but I thought this would be worth bringing up.

Dear God, no.

Tony Cloninger
07-28-2011, 04:37 PM
Well the sweep has happened. Re-examine thoughts?

He will deflect all blame elsewhere.....join ESPN and explain away any role he has had in this debacle.

mdccclxix
07-28-2011, 04:37 PM
Well the sweep has happened. Re-examine thoughts?

Yeah, and today was not Dusty's finest performance.

I know this, A LOT is at stake with the fans, and to ownership that means everything. They simply cannot afford to lose momentum with this team. They have to push forward, and I can believe Dusty would take the fall. I can believe it for sure. Ownership is not happy at all. This isn't just another season in the vein of 2001-2009, they mean business.

Homer Bailey
07-28-2011, 04:43 PM
http://twitter.com/#!/JohnnySmith28/status/96673816763301888

This is the same guy who reported the Cozart promotion about 24 hours before any other information. He has deleted all of those tweets, and is obviously a pretty cryptic and loose "source" of information regarding Reds news, but I thought this would be worth bringing up.

Whaaaaaaat

RedsManRick
07-28-2011, 04:47 PM
On the plus side, if Morgan took over, Stubbs would be given plenty of opportunity to work on his bunting.

vaticanplum
07-28-2011, 04:49 PM
On the plus side, if Morgan took over, Stubbs would be given plenty of opportunity to work on his bunting.

Baaaaaaahhhhhhh

RichRed
07-28-2011, 05:15 PM
I could see a whole new incarnation of the great firejoemorgan.com site surfacing.

RedLegSuperStar
07-28-2011, 05:16 PM
I'll believe it when I see it. There is no way this team signs a manager after going to the playoffs and fires him for being 5 games under. I understand his piss poor skills but this team wouldn't do that.. it doesn't have the stones.

Unassisted
07-28-2011, 05:24 PM
I know this, A LOT is at stake with the fans, and to ownership that means everything. They simply cannot afford to lose momentum with this team. They have to push forward, and I can believe Dusty would take the fall. I can believe it for sure. Ownership is not happy at all. This isn't just another season in the vein of 2001-2009, they mean business.If that's true, then why haven't they opened the wallet and chased trade/FA opportunities while the club was starting to get buried in L's during its summer slump?

To me, that tepid pursuit of change that costs money in the face of so much underperformance speaks volumes about their interest in competing this season.

mdccclxix
07-28-2011, 05:28 PM
If that's true, then why haven't they opened the wallet and chased trade/FA opportunities while the club was starting to get buried in L's during its summer slump?

To me, that tepid pursuit of change that costs money in the face of so much underperformance speaks volumes about their interest in competing this season.

True, but rumors have been that ownership is insisting on a big trade, meanwhile Walt is balking at dealing so much young talent. Its reasonable to picture owners say, our best asset is young, blocked talent, trade that because we're broke!

corkedbat
07-28-2011, 06:29 PM
If they do get rid of Dusty, I'd bring up Rick Sweet as interim manager until the end of the season when Walt can bring Tony LaRussa in over the offseason. :evil:

I'll admit that I haven't been the biggest fan of Dusty, but I'm not sure firing him makes a difference. I'd lay most of the blame on Walt. In order to have success (and sustain it) with a market the size of Cincinnat you have to know how and when to churn the roster. You also have to carefully select the veterans you are going to keep and get something in return for those you aren't.

Its not that hard to look good when you have vast resources and are putting 3M butts in the seats. With a club like the Reds though you have to be both smarter more aggressive at the same time.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-28-2011, 06:30 PM
I mentioned in another thread, but I like the idea of Rolen as a player/manager with the eventual move to full-time manager by 2013.

dsmith421
07-28-2011, 06:32 PM
I mentioned in another thread, but I like the idea of Rolen as a player/manager with the eventual move to full-time manager by 2013.

I don't think that is permissible under the CBA.

RedsManRick
07-28-2011, 06:32 PM
I mentioned in another thread, but I like the idea of Rolen as a player/manager with the eventual move to full-time manager by 2013.

I don't get the sense that Rolen would want to manage. I could see him as a coach, but he's never been one for the spotlight.

vaticanplum
07-28-2011, 06:50 PM
I mentioned in another thread, but I like the idea of Rolen as a player/manager with the eventual move to full-time manager by 2013.

I'm blanking on who the last player/manager was. Had to be a while ago, no?

mth123
07-28-2011, 07:00 PM
Corky, Corky, Corky!

klw
07-28-2011, 07:04 PM
I'm blanking on who the last player/manager was. Had to be a while ago, no?

Yeah and it didn't turn out so well if it was a certain someone in the mid-80's

vaticanplum
07-28-2011, 07:06 PM
Yeah and it didn't turn out so well if it was a certain someone in the mid-80's

That's what my friend suggested and I think he's right. That's like 25 years ago. I never really gave it much thought before, but is the player/manager a thing of the past? Is that last one responsible for this? Have we discussed this before? (this can be a new thread if needed)

Tony Cloninger
07-28-2011, 07:09 PM
Don Kessinger for the White Sox.

vaticanplum
07-28-2011, 07:11 PM
Don Kessinger for the White Sox.

Wikipedia says it was Rose. Looks like Kessinger retired in 79.

corkedbat
07-28-2011, 07:42 PM
Yeah and it didn't turn out so well if it was a certain someone in the mid-80's

IIRC, it was a gamble

BuckeyeRedleg
07-28-2011, 08:28 PM
The only reason I mentioned Rolen as player/manager was if they fired Baker either this year or next and Rolen (who I feel would be an excellent candidate to manage someday) is signed through next year as player anyway. Since he's limited in how much he'll probably play next year (50-80 games?) player/manager (for just a year) wouldn't be that crazy.

He does know the team.

And other than Rose gambling, I don't agree that the last time it was tried it was a trainwreck or anything. IIRC they finished 2nd '85 thru '88 (averaged 87 wins) and were competitive as it took them from the depths of the abyss in the early 80's to a WS championship in '90.

Unassisted
07-28-2011, 08:36 PM
http://twitter.com/#!/JohnnySmith28/status/96673816763301888

This is the same guy who reported the Cozart promotion about 24 hours before any other information. He has deleted all of those tweets, and is obviously a pretty cryptic and loose "source" of information regarding Reds news, but I thought this would be worth bringing up.This tweet of Johnny's is now deleted, too. :thumbdown:

It lives on in retweets.

http://mobile.twitter.com/lesser513/status/96688267273060352

Tom Servo
07-28-2011, 08:51 PM
IIRC, it was a gamble
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg828/scaled.php?server=828&filename=ohhhfatboy.gif&res=medium

klw
07-28-2011, 09:06 PM
IIRC, it was a gamble

I'd wager it would turn out better this time.

Caveat Emperor
07-28-2011, 09:13 PM
The Reds aren't launching that much cash.

Nor should they. Can't lay injuries (Rolen, Arroyo), regression (Wood, Bruce, Stubbs) and outright ineffectiveness (Volquez, Janish) at the feet of Dusty.

savafan
07-28-2011, 09:17 PM
The Reds aren't launching that much cash.

Nor should they. Can't lay injuries (Rolen, Arroyo), regression (Wood, Bruce, Stubbs) and outright ineffectiveness (Volquez, Janish) at the feet of Dusty.

What you can lay at the feet of dusty is refusal to play the hot hand, sitting players the day after a great game and managing more on loyalty and gut than performance based statistical analysis. I'm not a stats guy, but even I can see that.

jojo
07-28-2011, 09:22 PM
i think both the hitting and pitching coachs need to go.

Last year everyone thought Price was brilliant.

dougdirt
07-28-2011, 09:24 PM
The Reds aren't launching that much cash.

Nor should they. Can't lay injuries (Rolen, Arroyo), regression (Wood, Bruce, Stubbs) and outright ineffectiveness (Volquez, Janish) at the feet of Dusty.

Jay Bruce has a higher OPS+ this year than he did last year.

mth123
07-28-2011, 09:27 PM
The Reds aren't launching that much cash.

Nor should they. Can't lay injuries (Rolen, Arroyo), regression (Wood, Bruce, Stubbs) and outright ineffectiveness (Volquez, Janish) at the feet of Dusty.

Nope, but you could see most of it coming so you should lay it at walts feet. This is a team with Brandon Phillips hitting clean-up and right now he's probably the best choice. That speaks volumes over whether the issue is personnel or the Manager.

dougdirt
07-28-2011, 09:28 PM
Nope, but you could see most of it coming so you should lay it at walts feet. This is a team with Brandon Phillips hitting clean-up and right now he's probably the best choice. That speaks volumes over whether the issue is personnel or the Manager.

Brandon Phillips has an OPS below .750. He isn't close to the best choice to bat clean up. Bruce is. Hernandez is probably second.

Caveat Emperor
07-28-2011, 09:35 PM
Jay Bruce has a higher OPS+ this year than he did last year.

For the year -- but he's been so terrible for long stretches of the season that it was like having an extra Fred Lewis out there.

Numbers are numbers, but it's still about winning games, and it's tough to win games when one of your offensive cornerstones goes cold for a month at a time.

mth123
07-28-2011, 09:40 PM
Brandon Phillips has an OPS below .750. He isn't close to the best choice to bat clean up. Bruce is. Hernandez is probably second.

I used to think Bruce was the best choice, but he seems to try to do too much when he's there. I'd give Hernandez a try, but the point is that the team was left shorthanded, expecially against RHP. And that doesn't even begin to address the crimes Walt commited assembling this rotation. I'd fire Walt tomorrow if it was my call.

edabbs44
07-28-2011, 09:42 PM
I used to think Bruce was the best choice, but he seems to try to do too much when he's there. I'd give Hernandez a try, but the point is that the team was left shorthanded, expecially against RHP. And that doesn't even begin to address the crimes Walt commited assembling this rotation. I'd fire Walt tomorrow if it was my call.

Walt didn't truly "assemble" this rotation. It was mostly in place before he got here.

He of course could have make transactions if he wasn't happy with it.

mth123
07-28-2011, 09:47 PM
Walt didn't truly "assemble" this rotation. It was mostly in place before he got here.

He of course could have make transactions if he wasn't happy with it.

He chose to do nothing. Its mostly what he's done since he's been here.

jojo
07-28-2011, 09:47 PM
Brandon Phillips has an OPS below .750. He isn't close to the best choice to bat clean up. Bruce is. Hernandez is probably second.

When the reds let Phillips walk, it won't be hi bat that is missed for sure.

dougdirt
07-28-2011, 09:57 PM
When the reds let Phillips walk, it won't be hi bat that is missed for sure.

Which is why I would really consider letting him walk this year. He is on the wrong side of 25 to be a glove only player.

jojo
07-28-2011, 10:01 PM
Which is why I would really consider letting him walk this year. He is on the wrong side of 25 to be a glove only player.

He's a league average bat who can punish lefties some so he's not just a glove only player. It's just his bat tends to be way over rated and it could be replaced pretty easily.

dougdirt
07-28-2011, 10:06 PM
He's a league average bat who can punish lefties some so he's not just a glove only player. It's just his bat tends to be way over rated and it could be replaced pretty easily.

He is that player today. Barely. What about next year? And at that price? Not so sure. The only reason I question letting him walk instead of picking up the option is that if we can't get someone in free agency to replace him, we don't have a good internal solution.

osuceltic
07-28-2011, 10:07 PM
I'm a Dusty fan and have defended him in the past, but if ever a team seemed to be screaming for a managerial change, it's this Reds team. They have underachieved all season long and the last week or so has been truly abysmal. The lack attention to detail and play sloppy, lazy, uninspired baseball. It's hard to believe it's the same team as a year ago. It's a great lesson that it's never a good idea to stand pat to the extent the Reds did. (It's also, I believe, an indication of the value of Orlando Cabrera -- but that's a 20-page thread for another day.)

This has nothing to do with Dusty's lineups or anything like that. It has everything to do with this team's sleepwalking play. Dusty's strength is in establishing an expectation of professionalism and winning in the clubhouse. When those areas are as bad as they have been for this team, then unfortunately, a shakeup is in order. I think they may need a Buck Showalter type -- not a players' manager like Dusty. Sadly, I think this group has started taking advantage of Dusty's player-friendly nature.

Anyway, I don't blame Dusty for what's happening, but you can't fire the whole team. It's not too late for this season -- they need a shakeup.

dougdirt
07-28-2011, 10:16 PM
It's not too late for this season -- they need a shakeup.

Yes, it is too late for this season. Do the math. If any of the teams ahead of us do anything close to average and go 3 over the rest of the way, the Reds need to go 17 over the rest of the way to win it. This season is OVER for the Reds.

Chip R
07-28-2011, 11:22 PM
I could see a whole new incarnation of the great firejoemorgan.com site surfacing.

Ken Tremendous is a little busy these days though.

Ron Madden
07-29-2011, 05:07 AM
I voted no on the poll question.

I am not nor ever have been a fan of Dusty Baker but I can't see him being fired until early next year.

jojo
07-29-2011, 05:17 AM
If the Reds fired Dusty now, it would completely undercut his authority in the clubhouse next season.....

RedRoser
07-29-2011, 07:30 AM
If the Reds fired Dusty now, it would completely undercut his authority in the clubhouse next season.....


:confused:

Redhook
07-29-2011, 07:41 AM
If the Reds fired Dusty now, it would completely undercut his authority in the clubhouse next season.....

:lol:

redsfandan
07-29-2011, 09:21 AM
Yes, it is too late for this season. Do the math. If any of the teams ahead of us do anything close to average and go 3 over the rest of the way, the Reds need to go 17 over the rest of the way to win it. This season is OVER for the Reds.

So, you're saying that it's not possible for the Reds to catch them?

osuceltic
07-29-2011, 10:24 AM
Yes, it is too late for this season. Do the math. If any of the teams ahead of us do anything close to average and go 3 over the rest of the way, the Reds need to go 17 over the rest of the way to win it. This season is OVER for the Reds.

I would use this as an argument for not trading prospects for quick fixes -- for not being buyers. Firing a manager is something completely different. Let's say they do it and run off 9 out of 10 or something similar. All of a sudden, they're back in the mix. Managerial changes have had that kind of impact in the past.

Are you arguing this team doesn't need a shakeup? Are you arguing that a change isn't needed? Because it sounds like you're arguing buyers/sellers, and that isn't an argument I'm making.

IslandRed
07-29-2011, 11:36 AM
He's a league average bat who can punish lefties some so he's not just a glove only player. It's just his bat tends to be way over rated and it could be replaced pretty easily.


He is that player today. Barely. What about next year? And at that price? Not so sure. The only reason I question letting him walk instead of picking up the option is that if we can't get someone in free agency to replace him, we don't have a good internal solution.

Phillips is still ninth in MLB at his position in OPS. It's not a slam-dunk that his offense at second base can be replaced easily, or at all, for that matter. Particularly since we know the replacement won't make up any ground with the glove.

RedsManRick
07-29-2011, 12:49 PM
Rumors of us being in on Michael Bourn convince me that Dusty's job is quite safe.

Slyder
07-29-2011, 01:24 PM
He should be on the hot seat but he isnt. Short of an outright revolt by the players won't change that.

mdccclxix
07-29-2011, 01:27 PM
Rumors of us being in on Michael Bourn convince me that Dusty's job is quite safe.

Hahaha, very true

Unassisted
07-31-2011, 09:07 PM
He should be on the hot seat but he isnt. Short of an outright revolt by the players won't change that.Johnny Smith says the seat is "very hot."

http://i.imgur.com/IZuRG.png

jojo
07-31-2011, 09:29 PM
Johnny Smith says the seat is "very hot."

http://i.imgur.com/IZuRG.png

We might be at a place now where Johnny Smith isn't a gold standard rumor mongerer....