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The Operator
10-11-2011, 01:22 AM
I suppose this means the Bengals are out of the #SuckforLuck sweepstakes.And it looks like The Colts have the inside shot at him, if they want him.

How crazy would it be for a team to strike gold with Peyton Manning and then the minute he has his first significant injury get the chance to draft yet another potential superstar QB?

Redhook
10-11-2011, 08:15 AM
And it looks like The Colts have the inside shot at him, if they want him.

How crazy would it be for a team to strike gold with Peyton Manning and then the minute he has his first significant injury get the chance to draft yet another potential superstar QB?

Pretty LUCKy!

UKFlounder
10-11-2011, 05:02 PM
Think NBA, ca. 1997 - David Robinson and Tim Duncan

Of course, the NFL is different and Manning & Luck would not be on the field at once, but that's about the closest comparison I've heard



And it looks like The Colts have the inside shot at him, if they want him.

How crazy would it be for a team to strike gold with Peyton Manning and then the minute he has his first significant injury get the chance to draft yet another potential superstar QB?

texasdave
10-11-2011, 05:20 PM
Rockets got Ralph Sampson and Hakeem Olajuwon in back to back drafts. Not exactly the same. But in the ballpark.

Hoosier Red
10-11-2011, 06:12 PM
This is not a statement on how good or bad Andrew Luck is or will be. But can anyone remember the hype for any draft pick being this high?

-The "Suck for Luck" sweepstakes, involving multiple teams, almost before the season even started.
-The fact that he's been considered the sure fire no doubt #1 draft pick since before last year's draft?

Going back through the history of #1 draft picks, many of whom were quarterbacks from high profile schools, I just can't wrap my arms around anyone getting this much publicity.

In the last 10 years, the only comparisons I can think of were Eli Manning, and he wasn't a sure fire #1 pick at this point, and Matthew Stafford, who wasn't nearly as highly publicized.

The only other draft pick sweepstakes reference I can remember was Reggie Bush, and of course he ended up not getting picked 1st.

bucksfan2
10-12-2011, 09:27 AM
This is not a statement on how good or bad Andrew Luck is or will be. But can anyone remember the hype for any draft pick being this high?

-The "Suck for Luck" sweepstakes, involving multiple teams, almost before the season even started.
-The fact that he's been considered the sure fire no doubt #1 draft pick since before last year's draft?

Going back through the history of #1 draft picks, many of whom were quarterbacks from high profile schools, I just can't wrap my arms around anyone getting this much publicity.

In the last 10 years, the only comparisons I can think of were Eli Manning, and he wasn't a sure fire #1 pick at this point, and Matthew Stafford, who wasn't nearly as highly publicized.

The only other draft pick sweepstakes reference I can remember was Reggie Bush, and of course he ended up not getting picked 1st.

Peyton Manning went into the season as the clear cut #1 but that lasted until Ryan Leaf came about and Charles Woodson won the Heisman.

Everyone is making Luck to Elway comparisons. I wasn't old enough to remember so I will leave that up to the elder members.

Eli was the sure fire #1 because of his last name. IIRC the Chargers played a good game of saying they wanted Rivers #1.

I think the Suck for Luck sweepstakes boils down to Jacksonville, Indy, Miami, and KC. There are some other bad teams (Seattle, Arizona, and St. Louis) but they all play in the worst division in football and will beat each other up to get some wins. Could Indy get the #1 pick and trade Manning to the Chiefs? Now that would be ironic.

chicoruiz
10-12-2011, 12:21 PM
I think the Suck for Luck sweepstakes boils down to Jacksonville, Indy, Miami, and KC. There are some other bad teams (Seattle, Arizona, and St. Louis) but they all play in the worst division in football and will beat each other up to get some wins

Don't rule out the Dolphins- that is one stinko football team.

Hoosier Red
10-12-2011, 03:03 PM
Peyton Manning went into the season as the clear cut #1 but that lasted until Ryan Leaf came about and Charles Woodson won the Heisman.

Everyone is making Luck to Elway comparisons. I wasn't old enough to remember so I will leave that up to the elder members.

Eli was the sure fire #1 because of his last name. IIRC the Chargers played a good game of saying they wanted Rivers #1.

I think the Suck for Luck sweepstakes boils down to Jacksonville, Indy, Miami, and KC. There are some other bad teams (Seattle, Arizona, and St. Louis) but they all play in the worst division in football and will beat each other up to get some wins. Could Indy get the #1 pick and trade Manning to the Chiefs? Now that would be ironic.

Yeah but I don't remember any discussion of teams wanting to make sure they had the first pick so they could get either Peyton or Eli.

Oxilon
10-12-2011, 09:18 PM
Michael Vick was the last player I can remember where there was a "sweepstakes" as to who'll get him by the quarter-mark of the NFL season. Luck beats him though since he's "sweepstakes" began the instant he didn't come out last season.

But it's hard to compare the popularity of Luck to past #1's who were "can't miss." The media hype and popularity of the NFL Draft is massive compared to what it was when Elway and even Vick was drafted.

Brutus
10-16-2011, 03:43 PM
It's hard to fathom how good Andy Dalton can be in a few years if he's this good as a rookie.

17-of-21 for 180 yards thus far

Patrick Bateman
10-16-2011, 04:37 PM
It's hard to fathom how good Andy Dalton can be in a few years if he's this good as a rookie.

17-of-21 for 180 yards thus far

I think he's more Mike Leake than he is Justin Verlander, but I'm pleased with his fast progress.

Brutus
10-16-2011, 04:49 PM
I think he's more Mike Leake than he is Justin Verlander, but I'm pleased with his fast progress.

Boy, I dunno. He's got all the tools. Maybe he doesn't have an arm like Brett Favre, but he's got literally about everything else you'd want in a passer. I submit he'll pretty routinely be a top-5 type QB in passer rating going forward.

Stray
10-16-2011, 05:00 PM
How bout those Bengals?

4-2 going into the bye and Dalton just keeps getting better. Fun team to watch.

Oxilon
10-16-2011, 05:04 PM
Dalton doesn't have the mid and long pass strength Palmer had, but the accuracy is there. I'll also take Dalton on the short passes over Palmer.

With that said, I still wonder how much success Palmer would have with Gruden as his OC. Or, how would Dalton be fairing with Brat still as the OC. Gruden has been just as instrumental on the offense this year as Dalton has.

traderumor
10-16-2011, 05:10 PM
This is crazy. The Bengals, thought to be a laughingstock, is taking it to the house late as the other team falls apart. And the Buckeyes are riddled with scandal and mega collapse to lose a game Bungles style. I think I'm in the Bizzaro football universe this year.

Redsfaithful
10-16-2011, 05:11 PM
Games like that where you're supposed to win can be tough. I was a little worried the penalties were going to be the story of the game, but the Bengals overcame some sloppy play.

I felt like way more issues were apparent today, but hey, 4-2.

The Operator
10-16-2011, 05:43 PM
4-2 is a pretty great start, any way you look at it considering what they were facing coming into this season. Andy Dalton impresses the heck out of me.

KoryMac5
10-16-2011, 05:55 PM
4-2 and games coming up against the Seahawks and Titans on the road after the bye. We will see how good Dalton is playing his first game on the west coast. I have been impressed with how well the young guys are handling the NFL game.

traderumor
10-16-2011, 06:08 PM
4-2 and "Marvin is the worst coach in the NFL" talk absent from the discussion. Funny how that works :)

CTA513
10-16-2011, 06:20 PM
4-2 and "Marvin is the worst coach in the NFL" talk absent from the discussion. Funny how that works :)

he probably has more time to focus on the team instead of the clown WRs.

The Operator
10-16-2011, 06:33 PM
he probably has more time to focus on the team instead of the clown WRs.I think that's everything. He looks like the Marvin of old without the circus constantly distracting him.

Eric_the_Red
10-16-2011, 06:56 PM
So, what record do the Bengals end the season with? Make your bold predictions now. I'd guess 8-8.

Stray
10-16-2011, 07:08 PM
I like the way our defense plays against Baltimore. I think 8-8 would be an average finish for us if we win the games we should win. To get into the playoff talk (way too early I know) we're gonna need to knock off Baltimore or Pitt here or there.

chicoruiz
10-16-2011, 07:24 PM
Am I the only one who worries about what some of these knuckleheads will do to get onto the police blotter with a week off on their hands???

Just bitter experience speaking...

redsfanmia
10-16-2011, 08:31 PM
4-2 and "Marvin is the worst coach in the NFL" talk absent from the discussion. Funny how that works :)

The worst coach in the nfl was on the other sideline today.

PickOff
10-16-2011, 08:50 PM
So, what record do the Bengals end the season with? Make your bold predictions now. I'd guess 8-8.

If they can go 2-2 in the next 4, then 9-7 is in the bag with a good chance at 10-6. If they don't go at least 2-2 in the next four all bets are off.

WVRed
10-16-2011, 11:00 PM
So, what record do the Bengals end the season with? Make your bold predictions now. I'd guess 8-8.

The next two games are going to be crucial to the rest of the season. I'd love to be 6-2 heading into back to back games against the Steelers and Ravens. If we drop those two, I think the season could take a downward spiral.

I think we split. Seattle doesn't impress me but Tennessee is going to seriously test our run defense. I also think we split with Baltimore and Pittsburgh this year, although the game with Baltimore the last game of the season could have playoff implications.

Rest of the schedule:

@Seattle (W)
@Tennessee (L)
Pittsburgh (W)
@Baltimore (L)
Cleveland (W)
@Pittsburgh (L)
Houston (W)
@St Louis (W)
Arizona (W)
Baltimore (W)

If that holds up, we're 11-5 and likely a lock for the playoffs, whether it be winning the division or the wildcard.

fearofpopvol1
10-17-2011, 12:58 AM
Dalton has impressed the heck out of me. He's just a tough dude. I think the Bengals got very lucky picking him.

And dare I say, he's making Brown look smarter than Palmer.

RBA
10-17-2011, 01:13 AM
Carson Palmer to the Raiders? Raiders need a QB now. Getting Brett Favre out of retirement would be an Al Davis move.

CTA513
10-17-2011, 01:15 AM
Dalton has impressed the heck out of me. He's just a tough dude. I think the Bengals got very lucky picking him.

And dare I say, he's making Brown look smarter than Palmer.

They got a good QB and probably wouldn't have him if Palmer didn't demand to be traded or retire.

GAC
10-17-2011, 05:38 AM
Carson Palmer to the Raiders? Raiders need a QB now. Getting Brett Favre out of retirement would be an Al Davis move.

http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/recap?gameId=311016013


A source familiar with the team's thinking told Yahoo! Sports on Sunday that the Raiders were "trying hard" to land quasi-retired Cincinnati Bengals quarterback Carson Palmer. However, the source also told Yahoo! that it was doubtful Bengals owner Mike Brown would trade Palmer. Brown has been staunch in his public belief that Palmer has retired from the NFL and has said on multiple occasions he has no plans to deal the disgruntled signal-caller.

redsfandan
10-17-2011, 06:55 AM
Getting anything for Palmer would be a smart move. Which is why Mike Brown won't allow it.

Right now the Bengals have the worst home attendance in the league. I don't imagine that the weather in Dec/Jan will help.

LoganBuck
10-17-2011, 08:15 AM
Getting anything for Palmer would be a smart move. Which is why Mike Brown won't allow it.

Right now the Bengals have the worst home attendance in the league. I don't imagine that the weather in Dec/Jan will help.

Lapham was commenting on this sometime during the pregame yesterday. He said that teams haven't offered the Bengals anything of value for Palmer. Nothing remotely worth Mike Brown backing off his position. If someone offered something useful for him sure I could see it happening.

The Operator
10-17-2011, 09:16 AM
I might change my opinion if I thought The Bengals had a chance to get anything decent out of trading his rights, but a big part of me just wants him to continue rotting away on his couch out in California.

No one forced him to sign that mega contract. And as a fan who has to stick with the Bengals for better or worse, it angers me to no end when some prima-donna player decides he'd rather jump ship than be part of the solution. I hate Mike Brown. But I hate Palmer and Ochocinco even more. Same with Corey Dillon, etc.

Hoosier Red
10-17-2011, 09:27 AM
Yep. This has been rehashed over and over. But simply in terms of this particular negotiation, Brown has come out looking better than Palmer.

I'd have a lot more respect for him if he had made his demand, and when Brown showed he wasn't going to acquiesce, simply filed his retirement papers.

Palmer said he was going to retirez(if he wasn't traded), but what he's really done is hold out. Which is different. And the fact that he has continued to talk to Brown shows that he is just holding out, not retiring.

bucksfan2
10-17-2011, 09:27 AM
The next two games are going to be crucial to the rest of the season. I'd love to be 6-2 heading into back to back games against the Steelers and Ravens. If we drop those two, I think the season could take a downward spiral.

I think we split. Seattle doesn't impress me but Tennessee is going to seriously test our run defense. I also think we split with Baltimore and Pittsburgh this year, although the game with Baltimore the last game of the season could have playoff implications.

Rest of the schedule:

@Seattle (W)
@Tennessee (L)
Pittsburgh (W)
@Baltimore (L)
Cleveland (W)
@Pittsburgh (L)
Houston (W)
@St Louis (W)
Arizona (W)
Baltimore (W)

If that holds up, we're 11-5 and likely a lock for the playoffs, whether it be winning the division or the wildcard.

I do know this, when you start to prognosticate your usually wrong as the season plays out. Its just the way the NFL plays out as the season goes along. If the Bengals win the games they are favored in then I can see 11-5 or so happening. Seattle, Cleveland, St. Louis, and Arizona are must wins. 3 out of the 4 are home games and they are the better team on the field for those games. I think Tennessee and Houston are two tough games that are toss ups. Houston could come into town with Andre Johnson and Foster healthy and ready to go. Lets not forget that at one point many thought this could be the best team in the AFC. I do think playing Baltimore the last game of the season could help out the Bengals. Who knows if Baltimore will really try and win the game or will be in resting starters mode.

I think the next 3 games will be bell weather games for the Bengals. I am slightly concerned they aren't as good as many think. I thought they should have handled Indy and won late on a forced fumble. Indy's offense did a good job of moving the ball, even moving at will late in the game. The San Fran loss doesn't look as bad and the Bills win looks better. The Denver loss is still terrible and Cleveland and Jacksonville may be two of the worst teams in football. So I guess the jury is still out on the Bengals.

Hoosier Red
10-17-2011, 09:31 AM
I do know this, when you start to prognosticate your usually wrong as the season plays out. Its just the way the NFL plays out as the season goes along. If the Bengals win the games they are favored in then I can see 11-5 or so happening. Seattle, Cleveland, St. Louis, and Arizona are must wins. 3 out of the 4 are home games and they are the better team on the field for those games. I think Tennessee and Houston are two tough games that are toss ups. Houston could come into town with Andre Johnson and Foster healthy and ready to go. Lets not forget that at one point many thought this could be the best team in the AFC. I do think playing Baltimore the last game of the season could help out the Bengals. Who knows if Baltimore will really try and win the game or will be in resting starters mode.

I think the next 3 games will be bell weather games for the Bengals. I am slightly concerned they aren't as good as many think. I thought they should have handled Indy and won late on a forced fumble. Indy's offense did a good job of moving the ball, even moving at will late in the game. The San Fran loss doesn't look as bad and the Bills win looks better. The Denver loss is still terrible and Cleveland and Jacksonville may be two of the worst teams in football. So I guess the jury is still out on the Bengals.

Really, this team is different than previous versions so the "streaks" should have no bearing. But as a fan, I'll buy in that this team is different if they beat Seattle. It would end the streak of times they've traveled out west and laid eggs. And it would also end the streak of times they've come off a bye week playing like garbage.

Todd Gack
10-17-2011, 11:45 AM
http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/recap?gameId=311016013

That's why it's embarrassing to still see 40K people show up at Bengals games who still support Mike Brown.

Hoosier Red
10-17-2011, 12:21 PM
I'm not sure if other cities just don't take things as personally as Cincinnati, but I just don't get the sense that by paying to go to the games I'd be supporting Mike Brown.

He has a product, that product is entertaining this year, (it may not be entertaining enough to merit plunking down $150 at minimum) but I'd base my decision on whether or not I'm going to get my money's worth in terms of entertainment, rather than whether I'm supporting an owner who is going to get paid regardless.

It's the same concept with "boycotting" movies because the actor is a jerk.

I realize sports are different, the Bengals sold out 57 consecutive games because people felt a connection, and perhaps that was betrayed. But I just don't think I've ever see a city take the team losing as personally as it does in Cincinnati.

Stray
10-17-2011, 12:21 PM
That's why it's embarrassing to still see 40K people show up at Bengals games who still support Mike Brown.

Why does going to a home game have to mean you're directly supporting Mike Brown?

If some people want to be miserable and wage their war against a bad owner that's their own business. Surely you have to understand that there's a lot of fans who like the team, appreciate the way they play and want to go see it in person. Football games are fun...they're even more fun when the team you're supporting is winning. There's nothing embarrassing about fans wanting to enjoy their Sunday afternoon.

George Anderson
10-17-2011, 02:11 PM
I was at the game yesterday as a Colts fan and I couldn't get over how few fans were there. The middle sections were maybe 1/2 full and the upper levels were I would guess maybe 3/4 full. Factor in there was a pretty good amount of Colts in attendance and it makes Cincy not appear to be as big of a football town as I thought they were.

KoryMac5
10-17-2011, 03:10 PM
Mike Brown and a terrible economy have a lot to do with attendance or lack of it.

bucksfan2
10-17-2011, 03:16 PM
I was at the game yesterday as a Colts fan and I couldn't get over how few fans were there. The middle sections were maybe 1/2 full and the upper levels were I would guess maybe 3/4 full. Factor in there was a pretty good amount of Colts in attendance and it makes Cincy not appear to be as big of a football town as I thought they were.

So you were on of them! I was surprised that there was a large (and vocal) presence of Colts fans at the games. Even more so when you consider they are the current leader in the "Suck for Luck" sweepstakes (although I don't think they get there).

The stadium was the best it has looked all season long. If you think it looked bad yesterday in previous games the upper deck sections were only full in the middle sections. I doubt it gets better this season and it may take a while next season for fans to start to come back. I mean if you look at the past 6-8 months you had an unpopular coach brought back by an incompetent owner. The golden boy QB decided to quit, Chad Johnson was traded, you had a lockout with your two key players having no experience with a rookie offensive coordinator. If I weren't a season ticket holder I doubt I would have been shelling out $70 for a game, especially when the schedule had very few marque names, even fewer when Manning was said to be more hurt than originally anticipated.

Im not going to complain too much, the tailgating lots have been about half full which makes it nice. I don't have drunken yahoo's sitting next to me each game. I don't have to worry about standing in line for 20 minutes to get a soft pretzel an a beer. Its actually been quite nice for the season ticket holders. I can't really say the same for the rest of the people in the blacked out area.

Redsfaithful
10-17-2011, 03:34 PM
If the Bengals come home in three weeks at 6-2 they will definitely sell out vs. the Steelers. Then I think they'd have a shot of selling out vs. Cleveland week 12. They just have to keep winning and stay in it.

Houston, Arizona, and Baltimore closing out the home schedule are going to be tough to sell out even if the Bengals are a playoff team.

Redsfaithful
10-17-2011, 03:35 PM
Marvin today:


In the mystery of the day, Marvin Lewis, when asked for a message to give to the fans, directed a cryptic shot at an unspecified person. "Someone has done a very good job driving them away from here,” Lewis said. “And he’s been very wrong."

I personally think he's talking about Carson.

CTA513
10-17-2011, 03:49 PM
Marvin today:



I personally think he's talking about Carson.


Carson isn't the one telling the fans not to show up.

Hoosier Red
10-17-2011, 03:56 PM
Mike Brown and a terrible economy have a lot to do with attendance or lack of it.

The other problem is that Football isn't like baseball where a person often make up his mind 5 hours before the game to go. Because the tickets are so expensive, and the time committment so large, it's rare that a person simply decides on Friday night, "hey I'm not doing anything, I'll go to the Bengals game on Sunday." Even if they do think that, they'll simply purchase the tickets from a scalper.

Given the offseason from hell, there were not many people who chose to purchase the tickets before the season. So making up for sales during the season is very hard to do.

Redsfaithful
10-17-2011, 04:02 PM
Carson isn't the one telling the fans not to show up.

Not necessarily what the quote says. But if you want to read it that way, then who is telling fans that? The Cincinnati media has been pretty positive about the Bengals this year.

medford
10-17-2011, 04:21 PM
I don't think it matters what the Bengal's record is coming off the bye/road games, the Steeler's game will sell out because there will be a ton of black and gold in the stands.

to question the state of football fandom in and around the city of Cincy based upon current attendance is shortsided. Not only does it neglect the solid ratings Bengal's game get over the radio and when available on TV, but it doesn't account for the situation ownership has put the fans thru over the last 20 seasons. Think about it, there is a whole generation of football fans in the area that during their lifetime the Bengals have rarely been nothing more than the laughing stock of the league. There are so many seasons where local business can't even give away their tickets to clients near season's end. In a down economy, with many wondering what their job status will be in 6-12 months, passing up on a pair of $70 tickets (not to mention the cost of parking, food, time, etc...) has become an easy decision.

CTA513
10-17-2011, 04:26 PM
Not necessarily what the quote says. But if you want to read it that way, then who is telling fans that? The Cincinnati media has been pretty positive about the Bengals this year.

Cincinnati media is only positive when things are going right and then they try to act like they believed in them the whole time.
It wasn't that long ago that many of them pimped the whole Who Dey Revolution thing whenever they could.

redsfandan
10-17-2011, 05:10 PM
If the Bengals come home in three weeks at 6-2 they will definitely sell out vs. the Steelers. Then I think they'd have a shot of selling out vs. Cleveland week 12. They just have to keep winning and stay in it.

Houston, Arizona, and Baltimore closing out the home schedule are going to be tough to sell out even if the Bengals are a playoff team.

And I thought for sure they'd have 60,000 to see a win vs the Colts. It would be sad if there was more black and gold in the stands for that game than orange.


Marvin today:



I personally think he's talking about Carson.

If he IS talking about Carson then Marvin is the one that's wrong.

Redsfan320
10-17-2011, 05:14 PM
It does have to be Carson or Mikey that Marvin is talking about, right? There aren't really any other candidates here, are there?

320

redsfandan
10-17-2011, 05:21 PM
It does have to be Carson or Mikey that Marvin is talking about, right? There aren't really any other candidates here, are there?

320

Under Mikey the Bengals have become known for losing seasons, jail time, and drama. That's what's really sad considering the great Paul Brown used to be the boss. The fans are just tired of the circus.

Redsfaithful
10-17-2011, 06:00 PM
Reedy says the popular consensus is that it was about Carson:

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/bengals/2011/10/17/so-who-is-he/


Due to the bye week, Marvin Lewis’ press conference started earlier today, but there was an interesting comment two-thirds in that has plenty of people speculating.

One of the TV reporters asked Lewis if he had anything publicly to say to the fans to increase attendance at Paul Brown Stadium, Lewis said: “I can’t change people’s minds about things. You know what I mean? Someone has done a very good job of driving them away from here. And he’s been very wrong.”

Ask anyone about their interpretation of “he” and everyone has their idea. The clubhouse leader though pertains to a certain quarterback currently scheduled to make around $6.9 million.

I'm sure Palmer's last 10 months doesn't sit well with Marvin. How could it?

CTA513
10-17-2011, 06:00 PM
If he IS talking about Carson then Marvin is the one that's wrong.

and if it is then Marvins a little late to try and put him in line.

Reds/Flyers Fan
10-17-2011, 06:09 PM
I was at the game yesterday as a Colts fan and I couldn't get over how few fans were there. The middle sections were maybe 1/2 full and the upper levels were I would guess maybe 3/4 full. Factor in there was a pretty good amount of Colts in attendance and it makes Cincy not appear to be as big of a football town as I thought they were.

You should know the reason why the attendance figures are what they are this year, and it has nothing to do about fans who don't like football. Cincinnati is a better football town than Indianapolis, and all you have to do to prove that is look how the fans have stuck with the Bengals for two decades of abject futility. Think Indy would do that? The Bengals seven-year sellout streak was snapped last year in the 4-12 season that broke the camel's back. Mike Brown has abused Cincinnati fans to no end and this year they're getting back at him.

That takes nothing away from this city's love for and passion for the Bengals and football.

redsfandan
10-17-2011, 06:14 PM
and if it is then Marvins a little late to try and put him in line.

Marvin is just repeating the new company line: The problem is/was Palmer (NOT a certain owner). It's like an early xmass present for Mikey.

Stray
10-17-2011, 06:25 PM
I kinda agree with Marvin. Carson was a huge part of the big problem we had last season. He was the one who said we should sign TO. He was the one who couldn't be a leader. He was the one who quit.

I'm all for ripping on Mike, but he's built a pretty decent team in recent years. Our defense has been near the top of the league in 2 of the last 3 years, our supporting cast was strong enough to lose our franchise QB and not only stay competitive, but get better. Look around the league at other teams and imagine them losing a franchise QB...it is or it would be hard for them to compete. Favre leaving Minny, Peyton being hurt, etc...

I like Dalton because has all of those intangibles, even if he doesn't have as big of an arm.

redsfandan
10-17-2011, 06:32 PM
I'm all for ripping on Mike, but he's built a pretty decent team in recent years. ...

All I'm gonna say before I head out is that I think you might be giving Mike a little too much credit.

CTA513
10-17-2011, 06:37 PM
Chad was the one who was all about signing TO before Carson finally said something about it.

People should be happy Palmers gone since it resulted in Dalton being drafted, a new OC being brought in and the clown WRs being shipped off / not re-signed.

George Anderson
10-17-2011, 07:15 PM
You should know the reason why the attendance figures are what they are this year, and it has nothing to do about fans who don't like football. Cincinnati is a better football town than Indianapolis, and all you have to do to prove that is look how the fans have stuck with the Bengals for two decades of abject futility. Think Indy would do that? The Bengals seven-year sellout streak was snapped last year in the 4-12 season that broke the camel's back. Mike Brown has abused Cincinnati fans to no end and this year they're getting back at him.

That takes nothing away from this city's love for and passion for the Bengals and football.

I agree Cincy is a better football town than Indy. This year alone there have been several articles on "The Indy Star" about how tickets for Colts games are incredibly easy to come by. This is just a few short years from the Colts playing in the SB. I just was suprised at the many empty seats that were at the game. Again, no question Cincy is a better football town than Indy, I just underestimated Cincy's football fandom.

WMR
10-17-2011, 07:41 PM
No, you underestimated Mike Brown's ability to kill a fanbase's spirit.

Stray
10-17-2011, 07:46 PM
All I'm gonna say before I head out is that I think you might be giving Mike a little too much credit.

I'm not nominating him for owner or GM of the year or anything. I realize the coaches have a lot of say in our drafts/trades/FA signings. He is the one with the final say though, and the truth is we've had some really good drafts lately. If he's to blame for the busts and horrible signings, he has to be given some credit for our recent success.

Mike Zimmer is a really good defensive coordinator, but he also has a lot of really good players to work with.

paintmered
10-17-2011, 09:12 PM
No, you underestimated Mike Brown's ability to kill a fanbase's spirit.

Yep, the cynicism and disaffection towards Brown has finally reached a tipping point. The stadium lease, the lack of a desire to win (credit for Marvin for achieving mediocrity despite Brown) and no outward sign of contributing to the greater community has made him the most hated man in Cincinnati.

He's made millions off the backs of taxpayers and a loyal fan base. What does he do to thank the most loyal (renewing season ticket holders) for it? Issue a coupon for a free popcorn. Gee, thanks Mikey.

Before, winning now and then could cover up his stench. The fan base is wiser to it this time. And make no mistake, he's brought this upon himself.

cincrazy
10-17-2011, 11:25 PM
Why does going to a home game have to mean you're directly supporting Mike Brown?

If some people want to be miserable and wage their war against a bad owner that's their own business. Surely you have to understand that there's a lot of fans who like the team, appreciate the way they play and want to go see it in person. Football games are fun...they're even more fun when the team you're supporting is winning. There's nothing embarrassing about fans wanting to enjoy their Sunday afternoon.

There's nothing wrong with attending the game IMO. But on the flip side, just my opinion, I think NFL games in person suck. Unless you truly follow a great team, it just isn't worth it. the drive to and from the game sucks, the ticket prices suck, the tv timeouts suck, the price of the food at the game sucks. I don't even think the atmosphere is that great, it doesn't compare at all to an OSU game. It's just an overall underwhelming experience IMO, and I'd rather spend the day at home on the couch watching the game while surfing back and forth during tv timeouts.

The Operator
10-18-2011, 12:13 AM
Meanwhile in California...

http://www.redszone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5974&d=1318907630

CTA513
10-18-2011, 03:15 AM
Meanwhile in California...

http://www.redszone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5974&d=1318907630

he would still be in better shape then some Bengals

GAC
10-18-2011, 05:46 AM
I'd have a lot more respect for him if he had made his demand, and when Brown showed he wasn't going to acquiesce, simply filed his retirement papers.

Palmer said he was going to retirez(if he wasn't traded), but what he's really done is hold out. Which is different. And the fact that he has continued to talk to Brown shows that he is just holding out, not retiring.

I haven't been following it that closely, but Palmer never "officially" retired, and is basically holding out? Hmmm. This made me look deeper, and I also didn't know they signed him to a contract extension that runs through 2014...

2012:$11.5M, 2013:$13M, 2014:$14M

So someone set me straight if wrong.....

If he had officially retired, meaning he sat out the 2012 season, the Bengals would still hold the rights to him because of the contract right? If so, would would that entail?

And as long as he holds out, the Bengals don't have to pay him. Is that correct?

To be honest... if I was another team GM that contract (money) would greatly discourage me from pursuing a 31 yr old QB with a gimpy knee and questionable elbow.

I understand Brown's reasoning behind his firm position that it's a "matter of principle".....

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/6803427/cincinnati-bengals-carson-palmer-not-available-owner-says


"Carson signed a contract. He made a commitment. He gave his word," Brown said. "We relied on his word. We relied on his commitment. We expected him to perform here. He's going to walk away from his commitment. We aren't going to reward him for doing it."

Seems to me, if the above is true, that the Bengals have the upper hand on Palmer. Unless they can get something that is beneficial to the team I'd let him sit and rot. LOL

Brutus
10-18-2011, 06:40 AM
Seems to me, if the above is true, that the Bengals have the upper hand on Palmer. Unless they can get something that is beneficial to the team I'd let him sit and rot. LOL


At the bottom line, this is how I see it too. I think Palmer did the Bengals a favor long-term. Had he never done any of this, they probably never draft Dalton. And while Palmer in his prime was probably better than Dalton is currently, Palmer hasn't played nearly as well the last couple of seasons and I think Dalton will only get better.

At this point, the Bengals are better off for how things have transpired. They've gotten younger and they've gotten guys who are just going out and working hard. I respect Palmer for his principles, but I also think the Bengals are fine in the approach they're taking with him.

redsfandan
10-18-2011, 08:08 AM
At this point, the Bengals are better off for how things have transpired. They've gotten younger and they've gotten guys who are just going out and working hard. I respect Palmer for his principles, but I also think the Bengals are fine in the approach they're taking with him.

I realize that Mike, and some of the fans, are happy that Palmer is left in limbo not able to play. But, other than that feeling of revenge for being let down, I'm not sure this is really accomplishing anything and this might just be counterproductive. I'm not positive but if Carson were to report this year or next (highly unlikely but...) the Bengals might have a problem: What to do with a really expensive player that they don't want. I don't think they can stop him if he decides to report. Then the circus would just get started all over again. It's not like this is the first time they've had a disgruntled player. And I doubt this is gonna prevent it happening again. This probably isn't the kind of thing that makes the Bengals look good to future free agents either. Right now Palmer is only worth anything if he plays or is traded. The Bengals aren't going to play him. So trade him. Just wash your hands of the guy and be done with it. Trade him to the worst team you can if you want. If a team were to offer a mid round pick, even if it was in 2014, take it. If Mike were to trade him I'd be impressed because it would help him and the team not only by getting some extra pick years in the future but, more importantly, it would be one thing he could do to show that the circus has left town.

The Bengals have a good, young team. Be done with the stupid off field stuff and let the coaches do their job and the fans will eventually show up. Unfortunately, Mike Brown is just too hard headed to realize that sometimes it's more important to turn the page and move on. The problem is he thinks the team HAS moved on. But, as long as there's this off field stuff still hanging around he hasn't. Cincinnati deserves better than this. Cincinnati deserves a REAL NFL owner. Not one that is an embarrassment. Cincinnati deserves an owner that would say 'you don't want to help us win games that's fine cuz we only want players that want to help us win games' and THEN he'd let his gm, a REAL gm, trade the guy so the player has nothing to do with the team when it is making its way to the Super Bowl. Instead Cincinnati has to put up with this kind of stuff. Year after year after year. Maybe some people are happy with the prospect of Mike Brown keeping Carson Palmer in limbo. I'm tired of the circus. Cincinnati has become the one city where the circus never leaves. Yippee.

TheBigLebowski
10-18-2011, 11:24 AM
Palmer dealt to Oakland for a 2012 first round pick and a conditional 2013 pick which might end up being a first rounder...wow...am I dreaming?

Playadlc
10-18-2011, 11:29 AM
Mike Brown is a freaking genius, there I said it.

mash3024
10-18-2011, 11:32 AM
Palmer dealt to Oakland for a 2012 first round pick and a conditional 2013 pick which might end up being a first rounder...wow...am I dreaming?

That is an absolute steal! I'll give Mike Brown some credit on that one.

Stray
10-18-2011, 11:40 AM
Wow really? I haven't read any headlines today. If so that is an awesome deal.

Mike waited until a team was desperate and got way more than we could have ever dreamed.

CTA513
10-18-2011, 11:42 AM
Palmer dealt to Oakland for a 2012 first round pick and a conditional 2013 pick which might end up being a first rounder...wow...am I dreaming?

If true its easily the best deal they could get since the Raiders want to take advantage of being a pretty good team right now that just needs a QB.

Sea Ray
10-18-2011, 11:43 AM
Getting anything for Palmer would be a smart move. Which is why Mike Brown won't allow it.

Right now the Bengals have the worst home attendance in the league. I don't imagine that the weather in Dec/Jan will help.

You sure about that? If reports are correct and the Bengals are poised to get a 1st rd plus another 1st rd then Mike Brown is not the idiot you and others have portrayed him to be. He's merely been waiting for someone to overpay and it looks like he found his sucker. It's time to praise MB for his handling of this situation

Eric_the_Red
10-18-2011, 11:50 AM
I think it is time to contact the FBI and start the manhunt for Mike Brown. This can't be his doing.

medford
10-18-2011, 11:50 AM
If true, Mike Brown played that brillantly. Given the shape of negotiations last off season, its doubtful anyone was offering anyone close to that type of deal on draft day, I can't even recall if deals were allowed, I think they weren't. I doubt anyone was offerring up anything remotely close to this at the start of training camps.

I wonder what the conditions are on the 2013 draft pick. Is it too much for me to dream of the Bengals netting a top 10 draft pick in the next 2 seasons, plus their own draft pick in the mid to late 20s. Combine that with a young developing QB, a solid receiving core and some solid talent on the defensive front and they're contending for a super bowl.

Mo Egger is reporting that several sites have said this deal is a done deal.

Stray
10-18-2011, 11:50 AM
I had a feeling Oakland would be desperate with Jason Campbell going down. I thought they'd make us an offer we'd have to listen to.

What we got is more than I could have imagined. Seriously, this is such a great move by Mike. For Oakland I'm not so sure...if they can get the Carson of old it'll be great, if not it's the kinda trade that can set that franchise back for a while.

medford
10-18-2011, 11:51 AM
I think it is time to contact the FBI and start the manhunt for Mike Brown. This can't be his doing.

Katie has him locked up in the basement and has been quitely running the show the last 2 drafts. All part of her master plan to restore the family's football name.

Eric_the_Red
10-18-2011, 11:51 AM
So, time to call Chicago and offer a package including a #1 pick for Forte?

Brutus
10-18-2011, 11:55 AM
Mike Brown is a sand bagging son-of-a-gun LOL

Redsfaithful
10-18-2011, 11:55 AM
Best day to be a Bengals fan in decades probably. Hard to imagine the future looking much brighter.

Sea Ray
10-18-2011, 11:58 AM
Is there any reason for Oakland to show up for the draft in April? They are really desperate if they're willing to deal this lonely pick seeing as how they'd already traded away so many others

CTA513
10-18-2011, 12:01 PM
New QB
New OC
#85 traded
1 1st round pick and possibly another 1st round pick

thats what Palmer "retiring" got the Bengals

Eric_the_Red
10-18-2011, 12:03 PM
New QB
New OC
#85 traded
1 1st round pick and possibly another 1st round pick

thats what Palmer "retiring" got the Bengals

How did Palmer get a new OC and Chad traded?

CTA513
10-18-2011, 12:05 PM
How did Palmer get a new OC and Chad traded?

Brat and #85 would still be here if Palmer was here.

Eric_the_Red
10-18-2011, 12:06 PM
Brat and #85 would still be here if Palmer was here.

Based on what? Link?

cincrazy
10-18-2011, 12:09 PM
Unbelievable. This is actually a franchise that is making all of the right moves. And I don't know what in the world Oakland is thinking. One of the biggest desperation moves of all time. I don't think this move even helps them that much.

bucksfan2
10-18-2011, 12:10 PM
New QB
New OC
#85 traded
1 1st round pick and possibly another 1st round pick

thats what Palmer "retiring" got the Bengals

I think you can basically say Marvin is a newly refreshed head coach with more powers now.

I am optimistic about the rest of the season this year but realize that any more success from here on out is a positive thing. From where we were just 2 months ago this season has been an overwhelming success. Dalton looks like the real deal, Green looks like a great WR, the defense is playing awesome, they aren't showing up unmotivated for games, and most importantly are improving each game.

The 2012 draft just got a whole lot more interesting as well. Its scary to say that the Bengals are building a team the way your supposed to build a team. They are starting to look like an organization who has a clue.

cincrazy
10-18-2011, 12:10 PM
Since 2008, Jason Campbell is 23-27 with a QB rating of 85.0. Palmer is 14-22 with a 81.4 QB rating.

Redsfaithful
10-18-2011, 12:11 PM
Is there any reason for Oakland to show up for the draft in April? They are really desperate if they're willing to deal this lonely pick seeing as how they'd already traded away so many others

They're set to get some pretty high comp picks for lost FAs.

Sea Ray
10-18-2011, 12:13 PM
They're set to get some pretty high comp picks for lost FAs.

The highest possible comp pick is a 3rd/4th rd sandwich one, but we'll see

dabvu2498
10-18-2011, 12:16 PM
Hypothetical question:

Would this trade have happened if the Bengals were 0-6 and Dalton was struggling?

(Even though it still would have been the right thing to do.)

Matt700wlw
10-18-2011, 12:19 PM
Hypothetical question:

Would this trade have happened if the Bengals were 0-6 and Dalton was struggling?

(Even though it still would have been the right thing to do.)

It wouldn't have happened if a relevant team didn't lose their starting QB and got desperate.

bucksfan2
10-18-2011, 12:26 PM
Oakland heads into Cincinnati next season. Think the boo birds will be out for that game?

Brutus
10-18-2011, 12:28 PM
Since 2008, Jason Campbell is 23-27 with a QB rating of 85.0. Palmer is 14-22 with a 81.4 QB rating.

It seems you're suggesting Oakland overpaid? lol

PickOff
10-18-2011, 12:30 PM
If this trade actually happens as reported, (1st round 2012, conditional 1st round 2013 - and reportedly the conditions are very attainable) then we have to give some credit to Brown for setting the stage for this possibility. What an unbelievable haul! Boomer, under similar circumstances (declining production, questions about arm) was only traded for a 3rd round pick - and he was a former MVP that led the Bengals to a Super Bowl.

I wouldn't have traded Palmer for anything less than a first rounder or maybe two 2nd rounders; but I never imagined the likelihood of two first round picks. Gotta love it.

bucksfan2
10-18-2011, 12:42 PM
Since 2008, Jason Campbell is 23-27 with a QB rating of 85.0. Palmer is 14-22 with a 81.4 QB rating.

While Oakland was busy playing the dominant forces known as the Broncos, Chiefs and Changers (they are pretty good) the Bengals were playing pushovers known as the Steelers and Ravens (Browns don't count).

I think Carson is a better QB than Campbell but also think his glory days are well behind him. Its fair to question his arm strength, lack of mobility, and leadership skills.

CTA513
10-18-2011, 01:04 PM
next years 2nd rounder becomes a 1st rounder if the Raiders win a playoff game this season according to Chris Mortenson.

PickOff
10-18-2011, 01:10 PM
next years 2nd rounder becomes a 1st rounder if the Raiders win a playoff game this season according to Chris Mortenson.

1st in 2011 and 2nd in 2012 round guaranteed? Sounds good to me.

Sea Ray
10-18-2011, 01:14 PM
So should we root for them to win a playoff game or suck and get a high 2nd rounder?

BuckeyeRed27
10-18-2011, 01:26 PM
Oakland heads into Cincinnati next season. Think the boo birds will be out for that game?

I wouldn't boo Carson. He gave us a lot of years, many of them good. He left his left knee and right elbow on the PBS turf. You may not have liked the way he went about leaving, but he helped us get our QB of the future and possibly two more first round picks. I think he deserves a nice standing O.

Joseph
10-18-2011, 01:28 PM
next years 2nd rounder becomes a 1st rounder if the Raiders win a playoff game this season according to Chris Mortenson.

I thought it was just if they MADE the playoffs.

Joseph
10-18-2011, 01:29 PM
I wouldn't boo Carson. He gave us a lot of years, many of them good. He left his left knee and right elbow on the PBS turf. You may not have liked the way he went about leaving, but he helped us get our QB of the future and possibly two more first round picks. I think he deserves a nice standing O.

The chances of that happening are virtually nil. He'll be booed heavily.

BuckeyeRed27
10-18-2011, 01:32 PM
The chances of that happening are virtually nil. He'll be booed heavily.

I realize that and I think the people that do that are in the wrong in this case. They are probably the same people that aren't coming to Bengals games now because of Mike Brown.

UKFlounder
10-18-2011, 01:32 PM
Incredible news. Wow. Either way - 2 1st rounders or a first & a second - is a goo deal.

PickOff
10-18-2011, 01:37 PM
So should we root for them to win a playoff game or suck and get a high 2nd rounder?

Suck for sure; higher first round pick in 2012.

BuckeyeRedleg
10-18-2011, 01:39 PM
Highway robbery.

BuckeyeRedleg
10-18-2011, 01:42 PM
So, time to call Chicago and offer a package including a #1 pick for Forte?

Will Mike Tolbert be a free agent? I'd make a run at him. Possibly another Michael Turner.

RedsBaron
10-18-2011, 01:51 PM
My three favorite NFL teams have always been (since the late 1960s) (1) the Raiders, (2) the Bengals, and (3) the Packers. I am therefore thrilled for the Bengals but, my gosh, is Al Davis making trades from his grave? :eek:
Al Davis was brilliant when he was in his prime but he most definitely had not been in his prime during the last decade. This trade smacks of "Just win baby this year and forget all the seasons to come." I'm guessing that it takes Palmer at least a few games to get in mid-season form and I question how good his mid-season form is anymore.
A terrific trade for the Bengals.

Roy Tucker
10-18-2011, 01:59 PM
Boy, the Bengals sure came out of all this smelling like a rose.

Taking AJ Green in the draft was a no-brainer, but having Dalton still available at #2 was luck. Then for a west coast team that's contending for the playoffs have their starting QB get hurt and come knocking for Palmer is a fortuitous turn of events. I'd like to say that Brown was smart, but there is a big healthy dose of luck in there too.

UKFlounder
10-18-2011, 02:04 PM
But they say, luck equals preparation plus opporunity. The Bengals, apparently, were prepared to take advantage of the opportunity this time




Boy, the Bengals sure came out of all this smelling like a rose.

Taking AJ Green in the draft was a no-brainer, but having Dalton still available at #2 was luck. Then for a west coast team that's contending for the playoffs have their starting QB get hurt and come knocking for Palmer is a fortuitous turn of events. I'd like to say that Brown was smart, but there is a big healthy dose of luck in there too.

Oxilon
10-18-2011, 02:15 PM
This may be the greatest non-gameday for Bengal fans in the last 20 years.

WMR
10-18-2011, 03:08 PM
I realize that and I think the people that do that are in the wrong in this case. They are probably the same people that aren't coming to Bengals games now because of Mike Brown.

This doesn't make sense. The people who aren't coming to Bengals games now because of Mike Brown are the same people who generally applauded Carson for his stance against the Bengals organization.

BuckeyeRed27
10-18-2011, 03:14 PM
This doesn't make sense. The people who aren't coming to Bengals games now because of Mike Brown are the same people who generally applauded Carson for his stance against the Bengals organization.

So why would those people boo Carson?

WMR
10-18-2011, 03:16 PM
So why would those people boo Carson?

The ones booing Carson would be the ones who never stopped drinking the Mike Brown kool-aid.

I personally wouldn't boo him.

Amazed at how things turned out advantageously for the Bengals for once, however.

izzy's dad
10-18-2011, 03:33 PM
This trade news made my day. Great day to be a Bengals fan. This next draft should be very interesting. What do we draft? Best available, O-line, cornerback, safety, running back, thoughts?

Stray
10-18-2011, 03:35 PM
Carson should be boo'd. He took a bunch of money up front in a huge deal, stuck it in his bank, and then quit on our team. Obviously it worked out really well for us since Carson had started to suck and we got a new QB, but I'd boo him just for quitting.

BuckeyeRed27
10-18-2011, 03:37 PM
Carson should be boo'd. He took a bunch of money up front in a huge deal, stuck it in his bank, and then quit on our team. Obviously it worked out really well for us since Carson had started to suck and we got a new QB, but I'd boo him just for quitting.

Do you boo the fans that don't show up to the game?

Stray
10-18-2011, 03:38 PM
This trade news made my day. Great day to be a Bengals fan. This next draft should be very interesting. What do we draft? Best available, O-line, cornerback, safety, running back, thoughts?

We need help on the O-line, especially at guard. I would think RB is going to be a big need as well as cornerback. Beyond that we can draft for depth which will be nice.

Stray
10-18-2011, 03:38 PM
Do you boo the fans that don't show up to the game?

Why would I do that? I don't care what other fans do with their time.

chicoruiz
10-18-2011, 03:39 PM
It would be odd if the Bengals met the Raiders in a wild card game this season...winner advances, consolation prize is Oakland's #1.

bucksfan2
10-18-2011, 03:44 PM
This trade news made my day. Great day to be a Bengals fan. This next draft should be very interesting. What do we draft? Best available, O-line, cornerback, safety, running back, thoughts?

OL, DB, RB, WR, or even LB can be upgraded. I am not a huge fan of taking RB's and WR's early in the drafts. I think you can get great value in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, even later. You can never go wrong with adding OLine help. And I tend to think DB as well as LB can use an upgrade or a playmaker type.

LoganBuck
10-18-2011, 04:01 PM
What if this trade allows the Bengals to add a Trent Richardson type at running back? Wow.

Great move, by Mike Brown.

CTA513
10-18-2011, 04:06 PM
What if this trade allows the Bengals to add a Trent Richardson type at running back? Wow.

Great move, by Mike Brown.

it should allow them to move up and get him if they really want him or they might be able to use the pick to upgrade the offensive line.

I wouldn't have a problem with either since I would like to see Benson replaced and the interior of the O-Line needs upgrading.

cincrazy
10-18-2011, 04:09 PM
While Oakland was busy playing the dominant forces known as the Broncos, Chiefs and Changers (they are pretty good) the Bengals were playing pushovers known as the Steelers and Ravens (Browns don't count).

I think Carson is a better QB than Campbell but also think his glory days are well behind him. Its fair to question his arm strength, lack of mobility, and leadership skills.

I'm not sure I can say with any confidence Palmer is better than Campbell at this stage of their careers. They're pretty similar QBs in my opinion. And if Palmer is better, it isn't drastically. I think this trade will be remembered for a longggggggg time. And in a good way for the Bengals :)

cincrazy
10-18-2011, 04:10 PM
While Oakland was busy playing the dominant forces known as the Broncos, Chiefs and Changers (they are pretty good) the Bengals were playing pushovers known as the Steelers and Ravens (Browns don't count).

I think Carson is a better QB than Campbell but also think his glory days are well behind him. Its fair to question his arm strength, lack of mobility, and leadership skills.

Also, a ton of Carson's losses these last few years happened against teams OTHER than Baltimore and Pittsburgh. I don't think it's fair to point at the schedule as an excuse. Playing at SD, Denver, and KC are three of the toughest venues in this league, whether the teams are good or not.

WMR
10-18-2011, 04:15 PM
Who else is really looking forward to seeing how Carson looks?

Anyone bold enough to predict how well he does?

Considering how things have turned out, we should be hoping he can lead the Raiders to the playoffs.

bucksfan2
10-18-2011, 04:25 PM
Also, a ton of Carson's losses these last few years happened against teams OTHER than Baltimore and Pittsburgh. I don't think it's fair to point at the schedule as an excuse. Playing at SD, Denver, and KC are three of the toughest venues in this league, whether the teams are good or not.

I am not really trying to defend Carson. I think he has been on a steadily decline ever since he had the elbow injury. I do do think that playing the Steelers and Ravens twice each a season shouldn't be overlooked when comparing him to Campbell.

I am actually glad Carson forced the Bengals hand here. It was evident that he was trending in the wrong direction but with the financial commitment and "franchise QB title" the Bengals weren't going to head in another direction. Many teams too often hold onto aging QB's for too long because of the aforementioned aspects. Ever since his elbow injury I thought the Bengals should have invested a 2-3-4th round pick on a backup QB to groom. Until Carson gave his ultimatum the Bengals weren't going to head in that direction.

Its only icing on the cake to know that the Bengals will have two extra high draft picks as well as some serious cap space heading into the next few years. Oh yea, and a young team that is getting better each and every week.

cincrazy
10-18-2011, 04:27 PM
Who else is really looking forward to seeing how Carson looks?

Anyone bold enough to predict how well he does?

Considering how things have turned out, we should be hoping he can lead the Raiders to the playoffs.

I don't think he'll be all that great for them. He has to learn their offense, get on the same page with their receivers, and he's had a LOT of time off. And quite frankly the guy's never been the sharpest anyways, especially the last few years. The Raiders have a great ground game, and I think their line has been pretty good this year, but the receiving corp. leaves much to be desired. Should be interesting to see how it all plays out.

CTA513
10-18-2011, 04:35 PM
Who else is really looking forward to seeing how Carson looks?

Anyone bold enough to predict how well he does?

Considering how things have turned out, we should be hoping he can lead the Raiders to the playoffs.

Hard to say since hes been out for a while and now has to learn a new offense.
The one good thing for him is that the Raiders seem to have a good running game that he can lean on early.

redsfandan
10-18-2011, 04:49 PM
You sure about that? If reports are correct and the Bengals are poised to get a 1st rd plus another 1st rd then Mike Brown is not the idiot you and others have portrayed him to be. He's merely been waiting for someone to overpay and it looks like he found his sucker. It's time to praise MB for his handling of this situation
How about if we praise Mike Brown for not looking a gift horse in the mouth instead. You can praise him for not remaining stubborn if you want but he would have REALLY been an idiot if he had turned that deal down. That Oakland would lose their qb just a couple days before the trade deadline and pay that price so they can try to make the playoffs is pure luck. Mike Brown got very lucky cuz now there are people praising him for a move that anyone would've made. I didn't think MB would allow Palmer to be traded but I also didn't think a team would offer that package for Palmer. Obviously, it's a great move for the Bengals. The news about Benson is nice to hear too.

Redsfaithful
10-18-2011, 04:52 PM
Better team for the next 3-4 years, Reds or Bengals? I'd have to say Bengals.

Sea Ray
10-18-2011, 04:52 PM
A lot has been made of Carson's knee and elbow as being the main reasons for his decline but what I've seen is that he's staring down receivers much more than he did in 2005 and he rarely moves much in the pocket making it easier for defenses to defend him. The thing to look for with Carson this year is his mobility and whether he looks off receivers. If those things don't improve, he'll fail in Oakland. If Hue can coach him out of those habits, then kudos to him. But I'm thinking those things won't change early. It'll be fun to watch

redsfandan
10-18-2011, 04:53 PM
Who else is really looking forward to seeing how Carson looks?

Anyone bold enough to predict how well he does?

Considering how things have turned out, we should be hoping he can lead the Raiders to the playoffs.

He gets a fresh start with a coach he knows and is comfortable with. That will help. I expect a scaled down offense for awhile but come Dec/Jan who knows. I wouldn't be surprised if Palmer came back with a chip on his shoulder to show that he's not washed up. I'll be interested to see what he does Sunday vs the Chiefs.

Sea Ray
10-18-2011, 05:07 PM
He gets a fresh start with a coach he knows and is comfortable with. That will help. I expect a scaled down offense for awhile but come Dec/Jan who knows. I wouldn't be surprised if Palmer came back with a chip on his shoulder to show that he's not washed up. I'll be interested to see what he does Sunday vs the Chiefs.

You think he'll play this week? My guess is they'll wait until after the bye but we'll see

CTA513
10-18-2011, 05:09 PM
Raiders tweeted this picture of Palmer:

https://twitter.com/#!/RAIDERS/status/126387631767556096/photo/1/large

redsfandan
10-18-2011, 05:15 PM
You think he'll play this week? My guess is they'll wait until after the bye but we'll see

He probably won't start but I bet he'll be on the sidelines and available to play if needed.

texasdave
10-18-2011, 05:59 PM
Bengals running back Cedric Benson received a reduced one-game suspension from the NFL on Tuesday for his misdemeanor assault cases settled before the season, a person familiar with the discussions told The Associated Press.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/football/nfl/10/18/cedric.benson.suspension.ap/index.html#ixzz1bAYQR4VV

remdog
10-18-2011, 06:32 PM
Good for Carson. Class guy as opposed to lil' Mikey. Who called who's bluff? It think Carson called Mike's bluff and Mikey blicked. Carson didn't need to deal with an idiot and got tired of it. Mikey finally picked up on the idea that he had to expend a draft pick for another quarterback and there was nothing coming back to him. As usual, Mikey looked at the cost factor and, finally, the light bulb came on that he was the loser in the deal. Don't congratulate Mikey, congratulate Carson.

Of course, the caveat is that the Bengals actually do something positive with the draft picks, which, honestly, I'm not confident will happen.

I hope Carson comes in here next year and kicks the Bengals' (read Mike Brown) butt.

Rem

BuckeyeRedleg
10-18-2011, 06:44 PM
The opposite of everything rem just said.

Roy Tucker
10-18-2011, 06:56 PM
In my mind, the jury is still out on Palmer. I don't know if his inaccuracies was because of a damaged elbow or because of the freelancing Chad and TO.

I guess we'll see.

IslandRed
10-18-2011, 07:01 PM
Initial reaction from a non-Bengals fan -- both Brown and Palmer got what they wanted. Shrug.


A lot has been made of Carson's knee and elbow as being the main reasons for his decline but what I've seen is that he's staring down receivers much more than he did in 2005 and he rarely moves much in the pocket making it easier for defenses to defend him. The thing to look for with Carson this year is his mobility and whether he looks off receivers. If those things don't improve, he'll fail in Oakland. If Hue can coach him out of those habits, then kudos to him. But I'm thinking those things won't change early. It'll be fun to watch

When a guy who knows how to look off receivers starts staring them down, it's usually a trust issue, i.e. he doesn't have faith the receivers are going to be where they're supposed to be. Of course, that bad habit can stick, and you're correct that he'll have to do better. As for mobility, it is what it is at this point.

redsfandan
10-18-2011, 07:02 PM
Ya know if Mikey really wanted to stick it to Carson he would've either held onto his rights anyway or he would've dealt him to a team that didn't have a coach he was comfortable with, that wasn't in his home state, and that didn't have a chance at the playoffs. I doubt anyone would've passed on what Oakland gave up. I bet Palmer is a pretty happy camper right now.

WVRed
10-18-2011, 07:13 PM
Good for Carson. Class guy as opposed to lil' Mikey. Who called who's bluff? It think Carson called Mike's bluff and Mikey blicked. Carson didn't need to deal with an idiot and got tired of it. Mikey finally picked up on the idea that he had to expend a draft pick for another quarterback and there was nothing coming back to him. As usual, Mikey looked at the cost factor and, finally, the light bulb came on that he was the loser in the deal. Don't congratulate Mikey, congratulate Carson.

Of course, the caveat is that the Bengals actually do something positive with the draft picks, which, honestly, I'm not confident will happen.

I hope Carson comes in here next year and kicks the Bengals' (read Mike Brown) butt.

Rem

Mike Brown is his own devil and I don't think anybody here would dispute that, but when I think of the old adage "Nobody Likes a Quitter", I think of Carson Palmer. When he does come back to PBS (either this season in the playoffs or next regular season), he will see just how bad and unforgiving Cincinnati fans can be.

SOP isn't an angel, but Palmer isn't a saint either. The only fortunate thing for Carson was that he had enough money to retire on that some of us on here can only dream about. Could anybody here imagine what would happen if we did a similar situation to Carson in real life?

As was mentioned though, Palmer accomplished more by quitting. The Bengals have a young QB who unlike Palmer can manage an offense, an innovative offensive coordinator, cutting loose a primadonna wide receiver, and potentially two first round picks (one guaratneed).

WVRed
10-18-2011, 07:34 PM
I know this is beyond early, but with two first round draft picks, what would your strategy be?

I would use both to improve the offensive line. I would guess we could be picking mid to late first round and would have some intriguing options:

Andrew Datko (OT-Florida State)
David DeCastro (OG-Stanford)
Mike Brewster (C-Ohio State)

RiverRat13
10-18-2011, 08:37 PM
I know this is beyond early, but with two first round draft picks, what would your strategy be?

I would use both to improve the offensive line. I would guess we could be picking mid to late first round and would have some intriguing options:

Andrew Datko (OT-Florida State)
David DeCastro (OG-Stanford)
Mike Brewster (C-Ohio State)

The Bengals extended Cook, so I doubt they take a center. I would imagine interior offensive line, corner, and running back will be addressed in the first three rounds. They could also land a decent free agent to fill one of those needs with all of their cap space, but I suspect Mikey will use that cap room to extend a lot of the young defenders in the front seven. If there is a guard that grades out as a first rounder, that's where I'd like to see them go.

I wonder if the Bengals would toy with moving Clements to safety and grabbing a corner with one of their first round picks. I'd imagine they'd take a corner early anyway and make either Clements or the rookie the nickel, but I think Clements might excel at safety and be able to extend his career.

George Foster
10-18-2011, 09:04 PM
The opposite of everything rem just said.

MB came out smelling like a rose. You can't name 4 QB's in the league that could be traded for 2 first round picks...wow! Mike Brown saved millions on the contract as well. This trade has the potential of being as lopsided as the Viking-Cowboy trade that sent Hershel Walker to Minn. It took years for the Vikings to recover from that.

No matter what happens this year the Bengals future looks bright.:thumbup:

PickOff
10-18-2011, 09:18 PM
Listening to Palmer talk, watching him, it just makes me feel even better about him being gone. No fire, doesn't even seem like he wants to be there. He looks like a deer caught in the headlights. Self preservation competitiveness will kick in, but I don't see the drive of a winner. That said, if the offensive line gives him plenty of time he will do well enough.

Redsfaithful
10-18-2011, 09:39 PM
I want a running back and a corner. You can get a guard in round 2 or later, and they don't need a tackle, so I'd rather they not draft a lineman in round 1.

Joseph
10-18-2011, 09:57 PM
Listening to Palmer talk, watching him, it just makes me feel even better about him being gone. No fire, doesn't even seem like he wants to be there. He looks like a deer caught in the headlights. Self preservation competitiveness will kick in, but I don't see the drive of a winner. That said, if the offensive line gives him plenty of time he will do well enough.

I remember on Mike and Mike a couple years ago that they had some specialist who did psyche evals on players during the draft and his assessment of Palmer was similar to what you are saying. He wasn't the type who had that fire/drive to be successful. Apparently the group he worked for had studied all superbowl winning QBs and whatever type 'brain' Palmer was had never won a super bowl.

Now, before I'm accused of Carson bashing, I'll admit here that he was one of my favorite Bengals of all time. However, when he did what he did, he lost all goodwill from me. I'll be booing when he comes to town next year. This ain't Sean Casey getting dealt to clear cap space and because Votto was on the way in the next season or two. This is a guy who took his ball and went home.

Slyder
10-18-2011, 11:04 PM
1st in 2011 and 2nd in 2012 round guaranteed? Sounds good to me.

I as a Raider fan actually like it. We've botched so many early round picks the last couple decades that I like getting a known quantity. I also find it funny that theres a lot of comparisons flying already about another "washed up" qb that Oakland "rescued" in Jim Plunkett. I would definately not mind at all trading that much if it meant a super bowl championship. Palmer is rested, ready, and has experience with Hue Jackson (was Bengal WR coach). I know I haven't said this much since Gruden left but I underestimated the Raider FO this offseason. We shall see if it continues 4-2 feels GREAT (and we're a bad half away from being 5-1).

Slyder
10-18-2011, 11:06 PM
MB came out smelling like a rose. You can't name 4 QB's in the league that could be traded for 2 first round picks...wow! Mike Brown saved millions on the contract as well. This trade has the potential of being as lopsided as the Viking-Cowboy trade that sent Hershel Walker to Minn. It took years for the Vikings to recover from that.

No matter what happens this year the Bengals future looks bright.:thumbup:

Not a chance this approaches that deal. You got 2 picks compared to the Vikes giving up basically 2 whole drafts (plus a lot of luck with those picks). Raiders seem to have better luck drafting later anyways.

fearofpopvol1
10-18-2011, 11:22 PM
Mike Brown really is looking like a genius. The Bengals are in REALLY good shape right now. If they don't make the playoffs this year, I think they're a lock next year and for the foreseeable future as long as they keep the off the field stuff in check.

Patrick Bateman
10-18-2011, 11:46 PM
Mike Brown is not a genius.

Hue Jackson has been trying to get Carson since the season started. How ever, he had an owner that did not want to make a trade. He also had a second QB.

The perfect storm happened. The owner died, the QB got injured, and the cards suddenly fell into Brown's lap. The only reason he had Palmer is because there were no offers good enough to make him appease Palmer. He was very immature and took a pefect storm in the week of the deadline to make things happen.

He's no more a genius than the poker player who gets a pair of two's on the flop after going in with 2-7 off suit.

cincrazy
10-18-2011, 11:46 PM
I am not really trying to defend Carson. I think he has been on a steadily decline ever since he had the elbow injury. I do do think that playing the Steelers and Ravens twice each a season shouldn't be overlooked when comparing him to Campbell.

I am actually glad Carson forced the Bengals hand here. It was evident that he was trending in the wrong direction but with the financial commitment and "franchise QB title" the Bengals weren't going to head in another direction. Many teams too often hold onto aging QB's for too long because of the aforementioned aspects. Ever since his elbow injury I thought the Bengals should have invested a 2-3-4th round pick on a backup QB to groom. Until Carson gave his ultimatum the Bengals weren't going to head in that direction.

Its only icing on the cake to know that the Bengals will have two extra high draft picks as well as some serious cap space heading into the next few years. Oh yea, and a young team that is getting better each and every week.

Completely agreed :). Dare I say it.... especially after how disenchanted I was this winter... but it's good to be a Bengals fan right now.

cincrazy
10-18-2011, 11:48 PM
Mike Brown is not a genius.

Hue Jackson has been trying to get Carson since the season started. How ever, he had an owner that did not want to make a trade. He also had a second QB.

The perfect storm happened. The owner died, the QB got injured, and the cards suddenly fell into Brown's lap. The only reason he had Palmer is because there were no offers good enough to make him appease Palmer. He was very immature and took a pefect storm in the week of the deadline to make things happen.

He's no more a genius than the poker player who gets a pair of two's on the flop after going in with 2-7 off suit.

He's not a genius, no, but he handled this situation perfectly. His patience paid off. Maybe it wasn't the way he intended it, but still, this thing couldn't have fallen into place any better for this franchise. And seeing as how Mike runs the team, he deserves a healthy dose of credit for that.

Ohayou
10-19-2011, 12:04 AM
I know this is beyond early, but with two first round draft picks, what would your strategy be?

I would use both to improve the offensive line. I would guess we could be picking mid to late first round and would have some intriguing options:

Andrew Datko (OT-Florida State)
David DeCastro (OG-Stanford)
Mike Brewster (C-Ohio State)

Pick 1 - Cliff Harris, CB, Oregon
Pick 2 - David DeCastro, G, Stanford

It's POSSIBLE Richardson could fall to us, but I doubt it. If he doesn't, I'd wait until the 2nd round to draft a RB. MJD, McCoy, Forte, Rice, Tate - all 2nd rounders.

Johnny Footstool
10-19-2011, 12:26 AM
Palmer did what most of us would do if we worked in a place we didn't want to be. He quit. I don't hold that against him at all.

BuckeyeRedleg
10-19-2011, 01:38 AM
There is simply no way anyone can spin this trade as a win for Oakland.

None.

The Operator
10-19-2011, 02:08 AM
Palmer did what most of us would do if we worked in a place we didn't want to be. He quit. I don't hold that against him at all.Most of us didn't ink our name to a contract worth over 100 million dollars.

Sorry, I loved Carson for a long time. But he got worse and worse. And then, he turned his back on his teammates and all of his fans and quit - when his performance was a huge part of the problem. So he's pretty much dead to me.

I hate Mike Brown. But I hate an athlete who gives our entire fanbase the middle finger just as much.

WebScorpion
10-19-2011, 05:22 AM
I think Carson will do well in Oakland. He'll play with something to prove and maybe that and the change of scenery will be enough to spark him into being the old Carson again. The Raiders have an offensive line and a running game that will give him plenty of protection and they've got receivers who can stretch the field...if he can still hit them they will go a long way in that weak division. I don't blame CP for trying to screw Mike Brown, but I do blame him for screwing the fans in the process. We're lucky Dalton and AJ Green are working out, this could have easily been WORSE than last season.

So, even though I think he'll do well, I'm hoping he drags them down so badly that they finish near the bottom of the league. I hope he's still gunshy and doesn't have enough arm left to make the throws. I hope it goes down in history as one of the worst trades ever. Both because it would be well deserved and it would increase the return on those draft picks. Good riddance Mr. Palmer, may you get your just desserts. :p

PS - I wonder how many sacks our defense would get if we were to somehow meet them in the playoffs...

Redhook
10-19-2011, 08:03 AM
I've been 100% behind Palmer the day he said he would retire if not traded. I never felt slighted by him. In my opinion, he didn't quit. He was trying to stick it to the man. I didn't see how this was bad for Bengals fans then. And now, it's turned out better than I could've hoped for.

The Bengals got rid of an aging average QB. They drafted a young promising QB. They got rid of Brat, 85, and TO. And now, they're getting two top picks. Win, win, win, and win. Great day to be a Bengals fan! Thank you Carson Palmer.

medford
10-19-2011, 09:28 AM
Of course, the caveat is that the Bengals actually do something positive with the draft picks, which, honestly, I'm not confident will happen.
Rem

IMHO, the Bengals drafts this century have been fairly decent. They've scored several solid players in rounds 4-7 (TJ Housh, Rudi Johnson, Robert Geathers, Fanene, Kevin Huber, Morgan Trent, Bernard Scott, Geno Atkins plus a few more that have been "decent" for late round picks) They've generally hit on their 1st round picks. Andre Smith took a year too long to develop, but is playing nicely, otherwise, only Keith Rivers stands out as a potential bust (I suppose he's got some time), can't really blame them for the David Pollack situation. 2nd round picks have generally been pretty solid as well, perhaps they should have passed on TO last year (or moved OchoCinco to Washington for the draft picks) as the end of the season, and the start to this one have shown that Jerome Simpson was typical to most WR who don't fully blossom until their 3rd season in the league. Other 2nd round picks the last 10 years have included Chad Johnson, Madieu Williams, Eric Steinbach, Andrew Witworth, Rey Maluaga, Carlos Dunlap and Andy Dalton. Throw in some decent 3rd round picks like Jordan Shiply, Michael Johnson and Pat sims, all since 2008 and its hard to complain about the value they've got there as well. Overall, there have been a couple of stinker drafts, but most were in the early 2000s where no one outside the top pick or 2 made any impact, but I think you can stack up the last decade w/ most teams in the NFL. I doubt they'd come out on top in such an analysis, but they'd be far from the bottom.

Patrick Bateman
10-19-2011, 10:44 AM
Most of us didn't ink our name to a contract worth over 100 million dollars.

Sorry, I loved Carson for a long time. But he got worse and worse. And then, he turned his back on his teammates and all of his fans and quit - when his performance was a huge part of the problem. So he's pretty much dead to me.

I hate Mike Brown. But I hate an athlete who gives our entire fanbase the middle finger just as much.

These aren't MLB contracts. They aren't guaranteed.

NFL teams dump players when they have already "inked contracts" and numerous players hold out every year even soon after "inking contracts".

He wasn't getting paid while he was holding out, he simply would rather sit out and not get paid then play for the Bengals. IMHO, that says much more about the Bengals than it does about Palmer. He had every right to want to have a different employer, and quite frankly, I find it hilarious that he would rather do nothing than get paid to play a freaking sport. That's how bad he felt his employer was.

WVRed
10-19-2011, 12:00 PM
Most of us didn't ink our name to a contract worth over 100 million dollars.

Sorry, I loved Carson for a long time. But he got worse and worse. And then, he turned his back on his teammates and all of his fans and quit - when his performance was a huge part of the problem. So he's pretty much dead to me.

I hate Mike Brown. But I hate an athlete who gives our entire fanbase the middle finger just as much.

Well put, even though I don't think Carson would mean to take it out on the fans (although when they throw trash on your lawn, I guess I probably would).

Cincinnati is a blue collar city. You don't take your ball and go home and not expect harsh treatment.

KoryMac5
10-19-2011, 12:08 PM
These aren't MLB contracts. They aren't guaranteed.

NFL teams dump players when they have already "inked contracts" and numerous players hold out every year even soon after "inking contracts".

He wasn't getting paid while he was holding out, he simply would rather sit out and not get paid then play for the Bengals. IMHO, that says much more about the Bengals than it does about Palmer. He had every right to want to have a different employer, and quite frankly, I find it hilarious that he would rather do nothing than get paid to play a freaking sport. That's how bad he felt his employer was.

He felt sooooo bad about his employer he went ahead and signed a huge contract extension to stay with this terrible employer.

KoryMac5
10-19-2011, 12:11 PM
Lots of folks in the league (other owners) secretly didin't want Brown to make a Palmer deal. The other owners felt that Palmer quitting and getting what he wanted would set bad precedence for this in the future. However the possibility of 2 first round picks was too much for Brown to pass up.

The Operator
10-19-2011, 12:11 PM
These aren't MLB contracts. They aren't guaranteed. That's a problem they should take up in CBA negotiations. They know full well when signing a contract that they can be dropped, and at the same time they can also be held to it in its entirety. If they don't like that they should have the union force a change. But as of now, them's the rules. Carson knew it when he signed the contract. I don't care that he got buyer's remorse.




He wasn't getting paid while he was holding out, he simply would rather sit out and not get paid then play for the Bengals. IMHO, that says much more about the Bengals than it does about Palmer. He had every right to want to have a different employer, and quite frankly, I find it hilarious that he would rather do nothing than get paid to play a freaking sport. That's how bad he felt his employer was.If he was anything even remotely resembling an elite QB in the last few years, I might agree with you. But his performance bordered on pathetic. And for him to have the nerve to quit on his teammates and take his ball and go home - when his crappy play had a lot to do with the team's problems - is just a bit much for me.

I realize that Carson's antics actually ended up helping The Bengals in the long run. But that doesn't mean I'm going to commend him for being a quitter. I might mockingly thank him for making The Bengals a better team by not being a part of it, but that's about as far as I'll go.

WVRed
10-19-2011, 12:21 PM
Pick 1 - Cliff Harris, CB, Oregon
Pick 2 - David DeCastro, G, Stanford

It's POSSIBLE Richardson could fall to us, but I doubt it. If he doesn't, I'd wait until the 2nd round to draft a RB. MJD, McCoy, Forte, Rice, Tate - all 2nd rounders.

Every mock I've seen so far has Cliff Harris as a second rounder. One mock I read had the Bengals taking Harris in the second and a first round CB from South Carolina who's name escapes me at the moment.

Would anybody rule out the Bengals taking Janoris Jenkins in the first round? That seems like a good way to kick the gift horse in the mouth.

Stray
10-19-2011, 12:26 PM
The Raiders current situation is far from a good one. If you're looking at recent success the Bengals have been much better than the Raiders. Al Davis has passed away and the decision making in their FO is a huge question mark. They have traded away so many draft picks in the next couple of years so you wonder how they can build onto what they have. When was the last time they won the AFC West? I know they went to a Superbowl in 02 or something like that, but since then they've been terrible.

If Carson didn't like the situation here and accepts the situation there it makes you wonder.

But still, I get that some fans agree with what he did. I think that says more about Mike Brown than it does Carson though. If he didn't like it here he shouldn't have signed the contract extension...Mike was the owner when he signed it and Marvin was the coach when he signed it. He quit on his teammates and the Bengals fans, that is kinda an unforgivable thing for me as a fan.

Patrick Bateman
10-19-2011, 12:55 PM
He felt sooooo bad about his employer he went ahead and signed a huge contract extension to stay with this terrible employer.

Again, it's largely not guaranteed.
Either party is allowed to get out when they want to.

Chip R
10-19-2011, 01:03 PM
There is simply no way anyone can spin this trade as a win for Oakland.

None.

Unless Carson leads them to the Super Bowl and they are a championship contender for 3-4 years to come under him and the Bengals draft picks from OAK are flops.

But, yes, this is a win for the Bengals. Call it luck or stubborness or skill but Mike Brown comes out smelling like a rose here. I'm not a Bengals fan but living here I keep track of what's going on. If Brown traded Carson when everyone wanted him to, he wouldn't have got near as much as OAK gave him. I was with the majority of people who thought Brown should have traded Carson earlier than what he did. Perhaps Brown knew that a QB or two would go down and Carson would be in greater demand than he was in April. Continually insisting that Carson would not be traded probably helped drive the price up as well. People want what they can't have. I don't know if Al Davis would have made this trade if he were alive. But it doesn't matter since the deal was made. The Bengals may screw up those picks but it seems they have drafted well in the past few years.

As for Carson, he got what he wanted. Good for him. Now he has to show that he was worth those two draft picks and the large salary. What is going to happen when Campbell comes back? Will Carson be the QB he was 5-6 years ago or the QB he was last year? Odds are on the latter. He's on the wrong side of 30 and had major knee surgery. He's also had shoulder problems and the injuries don't get better when you get older. On the other hand, he's in a division that is far easier than the one the Bengals are in. He's in a place he wants to be playing for a coach he is familiar with who wanted him and liked working with in the past. So we'll see how it plays out but right now it's a solid win for the Bengals. :eek:

Todd Gack
10-19-2011, 01:25 PM
Mike Brown is his own devil and I don't think anybody here would dispute that, but when I think of the old adage "Nobody Likes a Quitter", I think of Carson Palmer. When he does come back to PBS (either this season in the playoffs or next regular season), he will see just how bad and unforgiving Cincinnati fans can be.

SOP isn't an angel, but Palmer isn't a saint either. The only fortunate thing for Carson was that he had enough money to retire on that some of us on here can only dream about. Could anybody here imagine what would happen if we did a similar situation to Carson in real life?

As was mentioned though, Palmer accomplished more by quitting. The Bengals have a young QB who unlike Palmer can manage an offense, an innovative offensive coordinator, cutting loose a primadonna wide receiver, and potentially two first round picks (one guaratneed).

The fact that people still go to Bengals games and pay Mike Brown money is astounding. The fact that there's a thread here discussing the Bengals and there are fans shows how brilliant of a man Mike Brown is.

KoryMac5
10-19-2011, 01:36 PM
Again, it's largely not guaranteed.
Either party is allowed to get out when they want to.

Missed the point. The point is Carson had his deal reworked in 2005, the reworked deal kept him with a terrible employer until 2014. He could have walked then but he chose to take a 15 million dollar bonus from this employer to stay. It's not like he didn't know what he was signing on for because he had been with the team for 2 years. My point is why sign the extension, if you don't like the employer? I guess Carson had 15 million reasons to stay.

I for one am glad Oakland was crazy enough to give 2 high picks for this guy as well as take on that contract. Bengals are set up nicely for the next 4 yrs or so.

The DARK
10-19-2011, 01:41 PM
Every mock I've seen so far has Cliff Harris as a second rounder. One mock I read had the Bengals taking Harris in the second and a first round CB from South Carolina who's name escapes me at the moment.

Would anybody rule out the Bengals taking Janoris Jenkins in the first round? That seems like a good way to kick the gift horse in the mouth.

That would be Stephon Gilmore. He's a great player, converted quarterback, with all the speed and size that you want out of a CB, but he's prone to getting burned and he doesn't have the killer instinct of a truly good CB. Time will make him good, but as of now I wouldn't take him in the first (this is coming from a South Carolina fan).

KoryMac5
10-19-2011, 01:41 PM
The fact that people still go to Bengals games and pay Mike Brown money is astounding. The fact that there's a thread here discussing the Bengals and there are fans shows how brilliant of a man Mike Brown is.

It's not Mike Brown being brillant, it is the draw of the NFL. People want the NFL experience. Shows you just how popular the sport has become these days that people will pay money to see it no matter how good your teams product is.

IslandRed
10-19-2011, 01:44 PM
That's a problem they should take up in CBA negotiations. They know full well when signing a contract that they can be dropped, and at the same time they can also be held to it in its entirety. If they don't like that they should have the union force a change. But as of now, them's the rules. Carson knew it when he signed the contract. I don't care that he got buyer's remorse.

Most of these super-long contracts are accounting fictions, meant to spread the signing bonus salary-cap hit over more seasons. Neither side really expects such a deal to be played out, because one side or the other is eventually going to have a problem with it, and they both have means at their disposal to get out of it. The team can cut the player or force him to renegotiate if they think he's overpaid or no longer useful, and all that future salary evaporates. The player can hold out if he feels underpaid or wants to force a trade. Doesn't mean he'll get what he wants, but he's free to try it as long as he doesn't mind not getting paid in the meantime. Those are the real rules as understood in the NFL.

Patrick Bateman
10-19-2011, 01:45 PM
Missed the point. The point is Carson had his deal reworked in 2005, the reworked deal kept him with a terrible employer until 2014. He could have walked then but he chose to take a 15 million dollar bonus from this employer to stay. It's not like he didn't know what he was signing on for because he had been with the team for 2 years. My point is why sign the extension, if you don't like the employer? I guess Carson had 15 million reasons to stay.

I for one am glad Oakland was crazy enough to give 2 high picks for this guy as well as take on that contract. Bengals are set up nicely for the next 4 yrs or so.

No, I didn't miss the point.

The reworked deal could be broken out of by either party at any time.
$15M bonus for a QB is not that much and reasonable for the amount of time he played with the team.

He presumably signed the extension because he wasn't tired of the antics at that point. Things have gotten progressively worse during his tenure, and I can understand how he could grow to become frustrated over time.

KoryMac5
10-19-2011, 02:14 PM
No, I didn't miss the point.

The reworked deal could be broken out of by either party at any time.
$15M bonus for a QB is not that much and reasonable for the amount of time he played with the team.

He presumably signed the extension because he wasn't tired of the antics at that point. Things have gotten progressively worse during his tenure, and I can understand how he could grow to become frustrated over time.

In the words of Chris Carter, Awe C'mon Man. Bit of a stretch especially since Palmer ain't talking and won't talk. We don't know what his problem was or who he had the problem with. Could be his wife wanted to be closer to family. Could be he didn't want to rebuild again. It's all speculation.

Every player in the league knows the Bengals are NFL exile, a place where good players go to die. I just don't see where things got so much worse from 2005 till 2010 that it would make a man quit. Especially when you sprinkle in two trips to the playoffs as well as Mike opening up his wallet to sign players Carson openly lobbied for.

traderumor
10-19-2011, 02:36 PM
Good for Carson. Class guy as opposed to lil' Mikey. Who called who's bluff? It think Carson called Mike's bluff and Mikey blicked. Carson didn't need to deal with an idiot and got tired of it. Mikey finally picked up on the idea that he had to expend a draft pick for another quarterback and there was nothing coming back to him. As usual, Mikey looked at the cost factor and, finally, the light bulb came on that he was the loser in the deal. Don't congratulate Mikey, congratulate Carson.

Of course, the caveat is that the Bengals actually do something positive with the draft picks, which, honestly, I'm not confident will happen.

I hope Carson comes in here next year and kicks the Bengals' (read Mike Brown) butt.

RemWhat? Mikey still had a team and income to ply his trade (cards in his hand and won). Carson had no team and no income (won part of the pot with a bluff). The only one in this game here who really didn't have anything but a losing hand is Oakland, who will have a hard time showing a winning hand out of this deal.

Brutus
10-19-2011, 02:37 PM
No, I didn't miss the point.

The reworked deal could be broken out of by either party at any time.
$15M bonus for a QB is not that much and reasonable for the amount of time he played with the team.

He presumably signed the extension because he wasn't tired of the antics at that point. Things have gotten progressively worse during his tenure, and I can understand how he could grow to become frustrated over time.

That's not entirely true, though. Players have no recourse to get out of a contract unless they simply retire or have an option to get out of it. While the contracts aren't guaranteed for the players, they're guaranteed for the owners. The owners have a player's rights as long as the contract is in existence.

Teams can cut players but players can't cut teams.

traderumor
10-19-2011, 02:37 PM
I also think it would be safer to say "Bengals management" rather than attribute these good football moves suddenly showing up for the Bengals to Mikey.

Caveat Emperor
10-19-2011, 02:46 PM
There is simply no way anyone can spin this trade as a win for Oakland.

None.

"Win" is a stretch, but there's a lot to like about this from Oakland's POV -- they've got a team that's loaded with speed and weapons on offense. Heyward-Bey is finally starting to look like a legit WR, Jacoby Ford is a threat to score every time he gets the ball in his hands, and you've got Run-DMC who combines the straight-line speed of a Chris Johnson with the hands of Ray Rice. Their offensive line is extremely solid as well.

There's ENORMOUS upside potential for the Raiders with Carson Palmer if he's healthy and can get into game shape quickly.

The Raiders may have overpaid a bit, but we're talking about a franchise that needed a QB to take the proverbial "next step" (the last quality QB they had in that city was Rich Gannon almost a decade ago) before Campbell got hurt and now needed someone who could step in and keep a successful season going.

I'm pulling for Palmer a lot on this one. The Raiders are already a fun team to watch, but if Palmer can recapture a little of the magic that seemed to leave as he spent time in Cincinnati, they could be really dangerous.

Ohayou
10-19-2011, 03:10 PM
Every mock I've seen so far has Cliff Harris as a second rounder.

We desperately need a play maker on defense, and Harris is that guy. He was a projected Top 10 pick before he fell off Kiper's board for a suspension.


One mock I read had the Bengals taking Harris in the second and a first round CB from South Carolina who's name escapes me at the moment.

Stephon Gilmore. I've never been impressed with him. He's inconsistent, and he forgets how to cover people. He'll pile up a lot of tackles against the run, but I don't want that. I want a guy who can create turnovers.


Would anybody rule out the Bengals taking Janoris Jenkins in the first round? That seems like a good way to kick the gift horse in the mouth.

Jenkins is nice, but the Bengals could just wait until the 2nd round. I seriously doubt anyone will want to spend their 1st pick on him, but who knows.

Sea Ray
10-19-2011, 04:20 PM
Again, it's largely not guaranteed.
Either party is allowed to get out when they want to.

That's not correct. Palmer couldn't get out when he wanted to. He was commited to the Bengals for 4 more years unless they traded his contract to another team. What gave you the idea that Palmer could get out whenever he wanted? If you know of a way then you ought to be his agent

Patrick Bateman
10-19-2011, 04:24 PM
That's not correct. Palmer couldn't get out when he wanted to. He was commited to the Bengals for 4 more years unless they traded his contract to another team. What gave you the idea that Palmer could get out whenever he wanted? If you know of a way then you ought to be his agent

The fact that he did by retiring? he doesnt have to play if he doesnt want to.

Stray
10-19-2011, 04:38 PM
I don't really have a problem with the owners being able to get out of contracts. The business model in the NFL works more than any other professional sport. It's not groundbreaking for an employer to have more power than the employee or anything.

Redsfaithful
10-19-2011, 04:51 PM
The fact that people still go to Bengals games and pay Mike Brown money is astounding. The fact that there's a thread here discussing the Bengals and there are fans shows how brilliant of a man Mike Brown is.

Do you or would you go to Reds games? They've been no better since Marvin Lewis was hired. They've actually probably been worse.

I'm not a Mike Brown fan, but they've been a pretty average team the last 8-9 years. If Carson hadn't gotten hurt they'd have been above average more than likely.

Ohayou
10-19-2011, 06:02 PM
They've been no better since Marvin Lewis was hired. They've actually probably been worse.

Say what you will about Lewis, but worse than the 90s Bengals? :laugh:

Redsfaithful
10-19-2011, 06:08 PM
Say what you will about Lewis, but worse than the 90s Bengals? :laugh:

... right which is why I said "since Marvin Lewis was hired".

Billy Hamilton's Legs
10-19-2011, 06:19 PM
There is simply no way anyone can spin this trade as a win for Oakland.

None.

Sorry to go back a few pages. I definitely agree we swindled the Raiders, but I'll take a stab at forming an argument that justifies the trade. So, at his worst, Carson is about a league average QB. At his best, he might be in the top 7 (this # is completely arbitrary). First off, many league average QBs are drafted in the 1st round. The cream of the crop QBs go in the first 10 picks. Obviously there are diamonds in the rough (rodgers), but usually late 1st round qbs are hit or miss. This year, their record already puts them in position to have a mid-late 1st round pick. With Carson, you are getting a guarantee. His QB rating is relatively stable and unlike draft picks, you know what kind of production you're getting. It's not going to be top 5, or top 10, but it's average, and possibly better. They now have a decent qb that is fairly consistent under center for the next 4 years. So, in that respect, he might be worth a 1st rounder and a second rounder. They can win now, avoid the gamble associated with the draft and solidify qb for the next few years, and maybe brighten the day of a few bengals fans.

Ohayou
10-19-2011, 07:10 PM
... right which is why I said "since Marvin Lewis was hired".

Perhaps you should have reworded your post better.

BuckeyeRedleg
10-19-2011, 07:32 PM
I'm sure this has been brought up before but does anyone know of a Bengals message board with semi-intelligent discussion and less of the stupid banners and avatars?

What is it about NFL message boards? Is there something in the demographic that screams, "I have to have a custom designed banner that takes up half the computer screen"?

I just want a RedsZone-like discussion on the Bengals. Like this thread, but just more detail.

CTA513
10-19-2011, 07:44 PM
I'm sure this has been brought up before but does anyone know of a Bengals message board with semi-intelligent discussion and less of the stupid banners and avatars?

What is it about NFL message boards? Is there something in the demographic that screams, "I have to have a custom designed banner that takes up half the computer screen"?

I just want a RedsZone-like discussion on the Bengals. Like this thread, but just more detail.

you should have an option in your control panel to block other peoples sigs and avatars

The Operator
10-19-2011, 09:17 PM
I'm sure this has been brought up before but does anyone know of a Bengals message board with semi-intelligent discussion and less of the stupid banners and avatars?Bengalszone is decent. Not as civil as this board, but some good discussion.

Johnny Footstool
10-19-2011, 10:42 PM
Most of us didn't ink our name to a contract worth over 100 million dollars.

Sorry, I loved Carson for a long time. But he got worse and worse. And then, he turned his back on his teammates and all of his fans and quit - when his performance was a huge part of the problem. So he's pretty much dead to me.

I hate Mike Brown. But I hate an athlete who gives our entire fanbase the middle finger just as much.

He walked away from a good portion of that money.

He got fed up with Mike Brown, and he asked to be traded. Brown refused, so rather than take the money and go through the motions, he quit.

The Operator
10-19-2011, 10:56 PM
He walked away from a good portion of that money.

He got fed up with Mike Brown, and he asked to be traded. Brown refused, so rather than take the money and go through the motions, he quit.He knew all about Mike Brown in 2005 when he signed that huge extension. I can understand being fed up with Mikey, I despise the guy. But no one put a gun to his head and made him sign that extension.

And it's not as if Carson exactly took a huge risk here. He admittedly already had 80 million in the bank. If he never took another snap he was already rich enough to keep his great grandkids from ever having to work.

A lot of people have questioned Carson's will to win over the years, through his quotes and through his demeanor on the sidelines, etc. To me this is just another example of that. Rather than dig in and be a part of the solution, he simply gave up and went home. But I'd love to run into him some day and thank him so much for making The Bengals a much better team without him.

Sea Ray
10-19-2011, 11:30 PM
The fact that he did by retiring? he doesnt have to play if he doesnt want to.

So what? It doesn't nullify his contract.

He's free to sit at home but just because he's not arrested doesn't mean that either side can get out when they want.

forfreelin04
10-19-2011, 11:57 PM
Mike Brown is not a genius.

Hue Jackson has been trying to get Carson since the season started. How ever, he had an owner that did not want to make a trade. He also had a second QB.

The perfect storm happened. The owner died, the QB got injured, and the cards suddenly fell into Brown's lap. The only reason he had Palmer is because there were no offers good enough to make him appease Palmer. He was very immature and took a pefect storm in the week of the deadline to make things happen.

He's no more a genius than the poker player who gets a pair of two's on the flop after going in with 2-7 off suit.

Ding ding!!:lol:

forfreelin04
10-20-2011, 12:18 AM
I was playing Madden 2007 the past few nights and I realized in just 4 years there are only a few Bengals left from that team. Geathers, Whitworth, frostee, and Williams is all I could remember. Pollack, Thurman, Tab Perry, Chris Perry, rudi, housh, braham, Dexter Jackson, shayne, Tory James, deltha, John Thornton, chris Henry, Brian Simmons, justin smith, stinko, and Carson all out of football, on other teams, or unfortunately deceased.

remdog
10-20-2011, 06:07 AM
I'm sure that all of you realize that if Campbell had broken that collar bone three days later Little Mikey wouldn't have gotten anything at all for Palmer.

Rem

Redsfaithful
10-20-2011, 10:55 AM
I'm sure that all of you realize that if Campbell had broken that collar bone three days later Little Mikey wouldn't have gotten anything at all for Palmer.

Rem

Maybe, maybe not. Seattle was offering 2 2nd rounders. Maybe Marvin convinces him to pull the trigger on a different deal, maybe he doesn't. Doesn't really matter in the end, the deal got done. Someone was desperate enough to meet Mike's (ridiculously inflated) price.

Stray
10-20-2011, 01:58 PM
I'm sure that all of you realize that if Campbell had broken that collar bone three days later Little Mikey wouldn't have gotten anything at all for Palmer.

Rem

Not true at all. The two times when Carson would have the most value were leading up to this trade deadline if a team got desperate, and the lead up and day of the next NFL draft. Carson was still going to be a wanted asset then.

I was fine keeping him till then because there would be a bigger market to compete for him. Sure we lucked out with Oakland becoming extremely desperate to win this year, but that's kinda how these kinda deals work. The alternative was dumping him for a 2nd/3rd or something along those lines just to get rid of him. That was obviously not the right thing to do.

remdog
10-20-2011, 05:09 PM
Totally disagree Stray. Little Mikey would have sat on his hands just out of spite because that's just the way he is.

Rem

Stray
10-20-2011, 06:29 PM
Totally disagree Stray. Little Mikey would have sat on his hands just out of spite because that's just the way he is.

Rem

I would have agreed with you before. As it turns out Mike was willing to make the deal if a team offered enough. I realize he's a bad owner, but he deserves some credit here.

Todd Gack
10-21-2011, 03:34 AM
Do you or would you go to Reds games? They've been no better since Marvin Lewis was hired. They've actually probably been worse.

I'm not a Mike Brown fan, but they've been a pretty average team the last 8-9 years. If Carson hadn't gotten hurt they'd have been above average more than likely.

Let me ask you this simple question:

Which organization do you think cares more about the fans?

The Operator
10-21-2011, 09:08 AM
Let me ask you this simple question:

Which organization do you think cares more about the fans?I know what you're getting at - but other than his dopey "we're not going to lose anymore, rah rah" quotes in the paper, Cast hasn't exactly been super committed to winning.

Cast plays the PR game better than Uncle Carl ever did, but other than that it seems he's running the Reds on pretty much the exact same mindset.

Redsfaithful
10-21-2011, 01:58 PM
Let me ask you this simple question:

Which organization do you think cares more about the fans?

That's important, I agree, but mostly what I care about is results on the field, and both franchises have been lacking.

It'd be nice if Bengals had a "Bengals Fest" (I'd take my sons just like I take them to Reds Fest), a Ring of Honor, etc. but ultimately I just want them competitive most years. Same deal with the Reds. I'm pretty easy to please, I don't need championships, just stay relevant most seasons. Since 2003, that's been the Bengals way more than the Reds.

traderumor
10-21-2011, 05:13 PM
Mike Brown is not a genius.

Hue Jackson has been trying to get Carson since the season started. How ever, he had an owner that did not want to make a trade. He also had a second QB.

The perfect storm happened. The owner died, the QB got injured, and the cards suddenly fell into Brown's lap. The only reason he had Palmer is because there were no offers good enough to make him appease Palmer. He was very immature and took a pefect storm in the week of the deadline to make things happen.

He's no more a genius than the poker player who gets a pair of two's on the flop after going in with 2-7 off suit.I don't think those giving kudos are arguing that he is. The poker analogy is about winning a nice pot by playing your cards right and, since it is a game of chance, drawing some good cards to win the hand. Poker, when money is on the table, is a game of skill and luck, which is what makes it a fun game. This transaction had both elements.

So, I agree that Mike Brown is not a genius, but he did win this hand with a good sized pot attached. I don't see any need to not give credit when it is due (unless its the Cardinals), although I'm suspicious that this part of the game was played by him. I think all he did was let someone use his chips to stay in the game.

Yachtzee
10-22-2011, 11:30 AM
He walked away from a good portion of that money.

He got fed up with Mike Brown, and he asked to be traded. Brown refused, so rather than take the money and go through the motions, he quit.

Actually, he already got a lot of his money before he played a down. Signing bonuses are the best kind of guarantee because its money in hand before you've been asked to perform. In contract law, that's called consideration, which means once you take that money, you have a duty to perform the contract. The way NFL contracts are actually constructed, the signing bonus should be considered the real compensation and the so-called "salary" is really a performance bonus.

In the real world, if anyone of us signed a contract paying us up front and refused to perform, we would be sued civilly for breach of contract and could also be charged with theft. On top of that, our employer could even prevent us from working for competitors for the length of the contract.

If NFL players wanted more flexibility in deciding when they can leave a team, they could alway just sign one year contracts and renegotiate every year.

Hillsdale87
10-22-2011, 12:17 PM
Do you or would you go to Reds games? They've been no better since Marvin Lewis was hired. They've actually probably been worse.

I'm not a Mike Brown fan, but they've been a pretty average team the last 8-9 years. If Carson hadn't gotten hurt they'd have been above average more than likely.

One difference is that the playing field is far more level in football. It's one thing in baseball when your limited by your market and payroll limitations keep you from consistently competing. It's still frustrating, but I think fans are a little more understanding. In football though, fans see Mike Brown as the cheapest owner in the game not due to market limitations, but his own stubbornness and greed. It's true that the Bengals have been average, but he refuses to invest what is necessary to push them beyond that.

traderumor
10-22-2011, 01:40 PM
One difference is that the playing field is far more level in football. It's one thing in baseball when your limited by your market and payroll limitations keep you from consistently competing. It's still frustrating, but I think fans are a little more understanding. In football though, fans see Mike Brown as the cheapest owner in the game not due to market limitations, but his own stubbornness and greed. It's true that the Bengals have been average, but he refuses to invest what is necessary to push them beyond that.
This is only partially true. There is still a dirty little secret that gets very little publicity about money some NFL franchises generate for various reasons that is off-the-books for salary cap purposes, but is still used to lure free agents. The funny part of it is that two orgs., Washington and Dallas, that I know of who have these types of resources are struggling to field a playoff team, while two teams in "small" markets, such as Buffalo and Cincinnati, figure out how to field playoff teams in this environment. The only press this issue got that I've seen was when Brown and Ralph Wilson got out of step with the ownership cartel and started talking about this issue and voted against something a few years ago.

But so many Bengals fans can't let go of the pre-Marvin Bengals that they can't see that this franchise is no more dysfunctional than all but a few NFL orgs.

IslandRed
10-23-2011, 01:19 PM
Actually, he already got a lot of his money before he played a down. Signing bonuses are the best kind of guarantee because its money in hand before you've been asked to perform. In contract law, that's called consideration, which means once you take that money, you have a duty to perform the contract. The way NFL contracts are actually constructed, the signing bonus should be considered the real compensation and the so-called "salary" is really a performance bonus.

In the real world, if anyone of us signed a contract paying us up front and refused to perform, we would be sued civilly for breach of contract and could also be charged with theft. On top of that, our employer could even prevent us from working for competitors for the length of the contract.

If NFL players wanted more flexibility in deciding when they can leave a team, they could alway just sign one year contracts and renegotiate every year.

In the real world, agents exist to make sure the actual contract language doesn't say what you say it's saying.

Now, you are correct about one thing -- if a player takes a big signing bonus, he owes the team his best effort over a certain time period. Where you're incorrect is the assumption that this time period is the entire nominal length of the contract. No one in the NFL signs "real" nine-year contracts. The only reason deals are ever that long is because the player is doing the team a favor -- giving the club a longer period to pro-rate the signing bonus so it saves them room under the salary cap in the near term. If you're going to lawyer up and try to cut them off at the knees for going along with that, then expect them to stop doing that.

The Operator
10-23-2011, 07:37 PM
Carson is in mid-season form already for Oakland, throwing a 58-yard pick six. :)

The Operator
10-23-2011, 07:44 PM
Carson has thrown a second interception, with a hefty 17.9 QB rating. Love it!

Patrick Bateman
10-23-2011, 07:54 PM
Carson has thrown a second interception, with a hefty 17.9 QB rating. Love it!

It's a pre-season game for him against players in mid season form.

Dont think there's much to gloat about here.

Stray
10-23-2011, 07:55 PM
3 interceptions for Carson in a little more than a quarter. Ouch.

The Operator
10-23-2011, 07:55 PM
It's a pre-season game for him against players in mid season form.

Dont think there's much to gloat about here.
Yea well I'm gonna anyway.

bucksfan2
10-23-2011, 08:21 PM
This is only partially true. There is still a dirty little secret that gets very little publicity about money some NFL franchises generate for various reasons that is off-the-books for salary cap purposes, but is still used to lure free agents. The funny part of it is that two orgs., Washington and Dallas, that I know of who have these types of resources are struggling to field a playoff team, while two teams in "small" markets, such as Buffalo and Cincinnati, figure out how to field playoff teams in this environment. The only press this issue got that I've seen was when Brown and Ralph Wilson got out of step with the ownership cartel and started talking about this issue and voted against something a few years ago.

But so many Bengals fans can't let go of the pre-Marvin Bengals that they can't see that this franchise is no more dysfunctional than all but a few NFL orgs.

I think with each additional coach Mike loses some power and the coach gains some. I think you saw Marvin get quite a bit more power this past off season when he inked a new deal than he had before. I don't particullary think Marvin is a great coach, however I do think he is a NFL caliber head coach. I really think there are precious few front offices that set themselves apart from the rest. Other than those organizations (Steelers and Pats come to mind) the rest of the teams success is based upon good fortune and luck in landing a franchise QB. I look at the Colts this season and realize how valuable Manning is to that organization.

I wish Mike Brown were't the owner of the Begals. I think he has been the laughingstock of the league for the better half of two decades. But I also think that since the arrival of Marvin they havn't had those head scratching moves.

CTA513
10-23-2011, 08:48 PM
It's a pre-season game for him against players in mid season form.

Dont think there's much to gloat about here.

Putting him in after getting down 21-0 didn't help the situation.
It pretty much meant he would have to throw after he hasn't played since game #16 of last season and just joined the Raiders less than a week ago.

redsfandan
10-24-2011, 05:07 AM
Putting him in after getting down 21-0 didn't help the situation.
It pretty much meant he would have to throw after he hasn't played since game #16 of last season and just joined the Raiders less than a week ago.

It didn't make it worse either. Since they were already losing anyway why not let him get his feet wet. Now he's got 2 weeks to become more familiar with his new receivers and learn more of the playbook before a home game vs Denver and then an away game vs San Diego. Those 2 games will mean alot more than the (almost) 2 quarters he played vs KC.

bucksfan2
10-24-2011, 09:41 AM
It didn't make it worse either. Since they were already losing anyway why not let him get his feet wet. Now he's got 2 weeks to become more familiar with his new receivers and learn more of the playbook before a home game vs Denver and then an away game vs San Diego. Those 2 games will mean alot more than the (almost) 2 quarters he played vs KC.

Carson pretty much played his first preseason game. It usually takes a few games into the season for a player to hit in season form. It will take Carson another 4 games to get back to his 2011 Bengals form, which isn't anything to write home about. You would have thought that playing the Chiefs, bye, Broncos would have been a great time to get him into the offense and also win both games. If you consider yourself a playoff team you can't lose home games to the Chiefs.

Hoosier Red
10-24-2011, 09:52 AM
One difference is that the playing field is far more level in football. It's one thing in baseball when your limited by your market and payroll limitations keep you from consistently competing. It's still frustrating, but I think fans are a little more understanding. In football though, fans see Mike Brown as the cheapest owner in the game not due to market limitations, but his own stubbornness and greed. It's true that the Bengals have been average, but he refuses to invest what is necessary to push them beyond that.

I think this is the general assumption, but teams like the Twins, Devil Rays, and Diamondbacks have proven that you can in fact compete with teams who have much higher payrolls. Certainly teams like the Yankees and Red Sox will always have an advantage, but 1) A team with nearly the lowest payroll has competed with them for the past 3-4 years, and 2) Neither of those teams plays in the Reds division.
While St. Louis and Chicago certainly have an advantage with a higher payroll, their payroll advantage isn't so overwhelming that the Reds should not be expected to compete.

KoryMac5
10-24-2011, 10:16 AM
While it was a preseason game for Carson, the problems that dogged him the last few seasons are still there. He gets nothing on the ball anymore, no zip to his passes, and they hang out there. Worst advice he ever got was not having TJ surgery for his elbow.

medford
10-24-2011, 01:56 PM
Preseason game? OK, I get that to an extent, but then I caught some commentary on NBC's football night in America. On his pick 6, they basically broke down the coverage, how Carson's first read should have been on the safety, which would have clearly told him the corner would jump any short route. Carson didn't even check the safety and it was returned for the pick 6, similar to what happened so many times the last couple of seasons in cincy. Now if you want to make the argument that its like a "preseason" game for him, fine, but the consensus amongst the NFL veterans and coaches was that coverage is a basic QB check, something anyone fresh out of HS football should be able to make and adjust to, let alone a type flight college program and numerous seasons in the NFL.

Hoosier Red
10-24-2011, 03:01 PM
While it was a preseason game for Carson, the problems that dogged him the last few seasons are still there. He gets nothing on the ball anymore, no zip to his passes, and they hang out there. Worst advice he ever got was not having TJ surgery for his elbow.

Agreed, part of the pick six problem(I prefer Bill Simmon's term Touchdown After INT) is that on passes in the flat, the ball just gives a safety or a corner too much time to cut in front.

Stray
10-24-2011, 03:02 PM
One of his picks was off of his back foot when they blitzed him. We've seen that a lot. And yeah, he was baited into that pick 6, we've also seen a lot of that.

The bad timing on outs and that stuff can be attributed to his lack of time there, but two of those picks were problems he's been having for a few years now.

Vottomatic
10-24-2011, 05:28 PM
All I know is that #1 pick in 2013 is looking more like a #2 pick after watching Carson.

Sea Ray
10-24-2011, 06:02 PM
All I know is that #1 pick in 2013 is looking more like a #2 pick after watching Carson.

Which is fine. I'll accept that 2013 is a 2nd rd pick . I want the 2012 pick to be as high as possible

medford
10-24-2011, 06:29 PM
Which is fine. I'll accept that 2013 is a 2nd rd pick . I want the 2012 pick to be as high as possible

I'd be perfectly fine w/ the #1 pick in the 2nd round in 2013, if the 2012 pick was a top 10 pick. I guess the question is, how realistic is that w/o a complete collapse?

Denver W
@ San Diego L
@ Minny ?
Chicago ?
@ Miami W
@ Green Bay L
Detroit ?
@ KC ?
San Diego L

that's 2 wins, 3 losses and 4 ?s. @ Minny kind of feels like a win, but if AP can get losse and/or Ponder continues to play like he did yesterday, that's going to be a tough one to win on the road. Chicago feels like a loss to me, though it seems like you never know what you're getting with that group. Detroit also feels like a loss, but they can be beat if you take it right to their defense on the run, an area that Oakland plays well. @ KC feels like a win, but after yesterday, maybe not so much.

So if I split the ?s, and add in the 4-3 record to date, that puts them at 8-8, which would probably net the Bengals a pick around the 16-18 hole of next season's draft, perhaps depending on tie breakers.

I think I'd take that right now and not look back as a Bengals fan. With the suck for Luck sweepstakes running rampant, its hard to imagine Oakland not winning at least 2-3 more games at a minimum. Of course, if they do manage to make the playoffs, and the Bengals don't, I'll be hoping like heck they reach the AFC championship game, then the wheels completely blow off. The #1 overall pick in 2013 wouldn't be so bad, would it? :)

Sea Ray
10-24-2011, 06:42 PM
I'm not expecting a top ten pick or a #1 in the 2nd rd in 2013. I'd love for the Raiders to give us a 1st rd pick ahead of our own in April. I don't see them pulling it together to get to the AFC championship game so why be disappointed? Let's just root for them to lose. Once you accept that they're not going to the AFC championship game, every loss helps us. I wouldn't chalk up Denver as a win yet. They would not have beaten Denver yesterday

medford
10-24-2011, 06:46 PM
Not expecting it either, but its always fun to dream when at the end of the day, any pick they would have got in exchange for Palmer at this point was a plus in my mind.

The Operator
10-25-2011, 05:36 AM
I don't think I've seen this posted here already so thought I'd share. AJ and Dalton were miked up for the Colts game:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-films-sound-efx/09000d5d823478f5/Sound-FX-Green-and-Dalton?module=HP11_cp

Dalton's leadership skills are just off the chart. Carson had none of those qualities. A stoic expression while standing as stiff as a statue on the sidelines was all you got from him. That, or the occasional screaming match with Chad. Such a refreshing change.

Yachtzee
10-25-2011, 10:11 PM
I don't think I've seen this posted here already so thought I'd share. AJ and Dalton were miked up for the Colts game:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-films-sound-efx/09000d5d823478f5/Sound-FX-Green-and-Dalton?module=HP11_cp

Dalton's leadership skills are just off the chart. Carson had none of those qualities. A stoic expression while standing as stiff as a statue on the sidelines was all you got from him. That, or the occasional screaming match with Chad. Such a refreshing change.


As Palmer's career with the Bengals went on, it seemed to me like he tended to pass on the role of keeping guys motivated and in line to the coaching staff. He may have worn the "C" on his chest, but he didn't act like much of a captain. Coaches can do that in practice, but the captain needs to do that on the field.

bucksfan2
10-27-2011, 02:58 PM
Palmer quit on team last year
"At what point did Carson quit?" Lewis is quoted as saying, paraphrasing a reporter's question. "At some point last year he decided he didn't want to be here. This didn't happen at the end of the season. There was a point earlier on when he said, 'This isn't the place for me.' "

Read more: http://www.wlwt.com/sports/29604019/detail.html#ixzz1c0Rdrqk0

RiverRat13
10-27-2011, 03:03 PM
I'm glad those guys are gone, but Marvin should just let it go.

CTA513
10-27-2011, 03:06 PM
I'm glad those guys are gone, but Marvin should just let it go.

Marvins all about putting his foot down once a player is gone.

The Operator
10-27-2011, 03:30 PM
Marvin probably would have been a bit tougher on those guys had he thought that his owner would back him up on any of it. After bringing back Chris Henry and undermining Lewis' authority for the billionth time, he probably decided to just go with the flow.

As for Carson, that doesn't surprise me. It sure looked like he wasn't trying toward the end of last year. Carelessly throwing into triple coverages, making ridiculous decisions, even for him.

The guy really does not have the heart of a competitor.

Sea Ray
10-27-2011, 03:51 PM
Marvins all about putting his foot down once a player is gone.

Marvin's got a right to be a little PO'd over the whole thing. I'm glad he's telling it like it is

CTA513
10-27-2011, 03:59 PM
Marvin's got a right to be a little PO'd over the whole thing. I'm glad he's telling it like it is

He has the right to be pissed, but maybe things wouldn't have gone how they have over the years if he actually stood up to the players when they were here and not after they left.

Brutus
10-27-2011, 04:44 PM
I don't think I've seen this posted here already so thought I'd share. AJ and Dalton were miked up for the Colts game:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-films-sound-efx/09000d5d823478f5/Sound-FX-Green-and-Dalton?module=HP11_cp

Dalton's leadership skills are just off the chart. Carson had none of those qualities. A stoic expression while standing as stiff as a statue on the sidelines was all you got from him. That, or the occasional screaming match with Chad. Such a refreshing change.

I love his leadership, but I especially love that there's seemingly a new attitude in the clubhouse. The guys on the roster aren't as jaded and have a fresh outlook on the team and situation. The Bengals needed a fresh start as much as Carson wanted one.

medford
10-27-2011, 05:00 PM
Its in Marvin's best interst to tell his side of the story. Perhaps on his coaching resume that goes up on his tombstone one day, this is meerly a blib on the radar and he directs the current and future Bengals teams on toward regular playoff births. Or perhaps the team struggles to an 6-10 finish this year, and repeats the same next year and Son of Paul decides to pull the plug. It would help with his next employeer if his side of last year's slide was on the table before hand.

redsfandan
10-28-2011, 08:48 AM
USAToday giving Dalton (and, to a lesser extent, Green) some pub:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/bengals/story/2011-10-27/andy-dalton-hope-for-future/50971660/1

I had forgotten what the bengals received for Chad. An extra 1st round pick (for Palmer) and 5th round pick (for Chad) in 2012 AND an extra 2nd round pick (or 1st for Palmer) and 6th round pick (for Chad) in 2013 is pretty sweet. Dalton is doing a good job of showing why you don't have to be one of the top picks at your position to make a difference. The connections to Marino (a Hall of Famer with a heck of a quick release) and (Slingin') Sammy Baugh (another HOF'er and one of the best qb's of the early NFL) were pretty cool too.

HotCorner
10-28-2011, 11:55 AM
Don't forget the Bengals will also receive compensation pick(s) for the loss of Jonathan Joseph.

redsfandan
10-28-2011, 12:00 PM
Don't forget the Bengals will also receive compensation pick(s) for the loss of Jonathan Joseph.

Do ya know what they'll get for losing him?

Sea Ray
10-28-2011, 12:04 PM
Do ya know what they'll get for losing him?

Some folks are saying we'll get the highest comp available and that's a sandwich pick between the 3rd and 4th rds. I'm wondering if our signing of his replacement, Nate Clemens, will knock that down a rd or two. I hope not but we'll see. Some sites are so confident in a 3rd rd pick they're already saying things like we'll "get 9 picks in rds 1-3 in the next two drafts

Redsfaithful
10-28-2011, 12:44 PM
I think it's based on the contract the FA receives, and Joseph got a huge one. The FAs the Bengals signed do matter, but Clements, Lawson, and Howard put together aren't making what Joseph is making.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Football_League_Draft#Compensatory_picks

Compensatory picks cannot be traded, and the placement of the picks is determined by a proprietary formula based on the player's salary, playing time, and postseason honors with his new team, with salary being the primary factor.

MWM
10-28-2011, 01:09 PM
Man, there are some serious over-reactions to all kinds of things in this thread. First of all, that was Marvin's perception, which could be influenced by him just trying to save face. Marvin decided to stay, but I don't think it was because he wanted to be in Cincinnati as much as its a pretty safe job with Mike Brown as his boss and there's a good chance he wouldn't be in high demand elsewhere. A head coaching gig in the NFL is a pretty good thing to have. Don't think Marvin is somehow objective in this. Carson sure didn't look like he had quit against San Diego last year. It's all a crock of BS if you ask me. I still don't blame Carson one bit for not wanting to play in Cincy anymore. He possibly could have handled it better but I can understand why he was so miserable here.

And I can't believe people are making judgments based on last Sunday when he had 3 days of practice after not having any training camp or anything else. If you think he won't be better, either later this year or next year, you're just not thinking clearly. He's not an elite QB but to think he's going to be a bad one is believing what you want to believe.

I also think people are WAY ahead of themselves on Dalton. I love what the guy has done and the intangibles he seems to bring with him, but all these same things were said about Palmer once upon a time, and Palmer had MUCH more talent. Let's give him a few years in this organization and see how much leadership he has. Jon Kitna has great leadership skills, I doubt anyone wants him back.

I'll readily admit that I'm biased when it comes to the Bengals...biased by cynicism. I'll continue to root for them and hope they turn into a team capable of winning in the playoffs, but I've seen this movie before. In the past 20 years, this same cycle where something or someone comes along and everyone thinks "this is different" and start to believe the franchise has turned the corner and has a bright future has happened at least 4-5 times. I don't see how this is any different. It's not hard to put together a team that is close to winning. Anyone can do that every once in a while. It's difficult to take that next step to having an organization that can seriously compete for a super bowl. I don't believe Mike Brown has any clue how to get there. He can get them close and do enough to provide optimism, but he'll never get them over the edge. Doesn't mean I won't be a fan and hope for something better, but I'm not going to invest in any kind of belief that it will like a lot of people are doing.