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Patrick Bateman
10-28-2011, 01:04 PM
MWM, that sums up my feelings very well. Very nice post.

bucksfan2
10-28-2011, 01:28 PM
Man, there are some serious over-reactions to all kinds of things in this thread. First of all, that was Marvin's perception, which could be influenced by him just trying to save face. Marvin decided to stay, but I don't think it was because he wanted to be in Cincinnati as much as its a pretty safe job with Mike Brown as his boss and there's a good chance he wouldn't be in high demand elsewhere. A head coaching gig in the NFL is a pretty good thing to have. Don't think Marvin is somehow objective in this. Carson sure didn't look like he had quit against San Diego last year. It's all a crock of BS if you ask me. I still don't blame Carson one bit for not wanting to play in Cincy anymore. He possibly could have handled it better but I can understand why he was so miserable here.

I think I will attack this bit by bit. I somewhat agree with this notion. I think familiarity and the impending lockout were the driving forces for Marvin to resign with Cincy. I also tend to believe that in part of the deal he got more power given to him and more taken away from Mike. Its true that there are only 32 NFL jobs in the country but the guy has made his millions, could move on as an assistant, work in TV, or head to the college game. Even bad NFL coaches get well paying jobs after their HC tenure is gone.


And I can't believe people are making judgments based on last Sunday when he had 3 days of practice after not having any training camp or anything else. If you think he won't be better, either later this year or next year, you're just not thinking clearly. He's not an elite QB but to think he's going to be a bad one is believing what you want to believe.

I don't think anybody is making concrete judgements on Carson based upon last weeks showing. It was awful, abysmal, terrible, anyway you want to spin it. The Raiders weren't good and Carson came in only knowing a few plays and having practiced with high schoolers for all but 3 days. I can't help but notice that some of the things that plagued him in the past showed up against the Chiefs. Mainly back footed throws and pick 6's. Im not really going to make any judgements on Carson this year, I don't think it would be a fair judgment. He isn't an elite QB, hasn't been an elite QB for a couple of seasons now. I see the Carson of 2010 going forward, which isn't something to write home about.


I also think people are WAY ahead of themselves on Dalton. I love what the guy has done and the intangibles he seems to bring with him, but all these same things were said about Palmer once upon a time, and Palmer had MUCH more talent. Let's give him a few years in this organization and see how much leadership he has. Jon Kitna has great leadership skills, I doubt anyone wants him back.

I like Dalton and I know many have gotten ahead of themselves. I also know that a lot of the national guys also like Dalton. Looking back Palmer was never the leader. Its not to say that he was a bad QB, he was a top tier QB for a couple of season. But I still think he allowed the strong personalities to take control of the huddle. That was fine and dandy during the good times, but awful during the less that stellar times. I don't think anyone is going to say that Palmer doesn't possess more prototypical talent that Dalton. He is talker, bigger, and has a stronger arm. But Dalton possesses things like mobility, a quick release, and so far leadership. I was a huge Palmer fan, heck he is the only NFL player I ever bought a jersey of. I always thought he as a stand up guy who would bring playoff success to this organization. Unfortunately that didn't happen and he quit his way out of town. To be honest I watched the 2nd half of the Raiders game last week with a little smile on my face.


I'll readily admit that I'm biased when it comes to the Bengals...biased by cynicism. I'll continue to root for them and hope they turn into a team capable of winning in the playoffs, but I've seen this movie before. In the past 20 years, this same cycle where something or someone comes along and everyone thinks "this is different" and start to believe the franchise has turned the corner and has a bright future has happened at least 4-5 times. I don't see how this is any different. It's not hard to put together a team that is close to winning. Anyone can do that every once in a while. It's difficult to take that next step to having an organization that can seriously compete for a super bowl. I don't believe Mike Brown has any clue how to get there. He can get them close and do enough to provide optimism, but he'll never get them over the edge. Doesn't mean I won't be a fan and hope for something better, but I'm not going to invest in any kind of belief that it will like a lot of people are doing.

Seen a lot of people with the same reaction as you have. Doesn't make it wrong and it doesn't make it right. As a fan I am enjoying this season, a young QB and a stud rookie WR. I also know that they have a very good D as well as a number of draft picks in the upcoming drafts. I too am skeptical that Mike Brown will make the right calls going forward in the drafts and free agency, but if the 2011 season is any indication then the Bengals are heading in the right direction.

MWM
10-28-2011, 01:40 PM
Everyone saying Carson wasn't a leader have a short-term memory. When he first became the starter, fans and coaches and players all raved about his leadership skills. Just because he wasn't a rah-rah vocal leader does not mean he didn't lead. His style was different. I also hear him criticized for not managing the egos in the huddle. I can think of only one, and that was ocho. TO was last year only.

Do people really think Dalton would be doing any better with Chad? What's going to happen when AJ Green is seen as one of the best WRs in the game and becomes a typical diva WR? Not saying it will happen, but I think there's a good chance it will. He was very diva like in college and he's already being treated like NFL royalty. Will Dalton be able to be an effective leader if that happens? Leadership is such a nebulous term with all kinds of meanings, all of which are very subjective. People think it's a silver bullet in sports. It's not, not even close. There have been a small handful of QBs in history who could have really managed Chad's and TO's ego and all of them were top tier all time QBs. You have to be in the same league as the person with the go if you want to lead. A decent QB with an elite receiver is not going to work if the receiver doesn't want it to.

I like what I see from Dalton a lot and hope he turns into a great QB. But he's started 6 games against mostly bad teams. Let's way to see how he handles adversity. Then we'll see how much he has in the way of intangibles. He does have one thing going for him, Bratkowski is not his OC. If Brat had stuck around, we would not being having these conversations.

Sea Ray
10-28-2011, 02:39 PM
I think it's based on the contract the FA receives, and Joseph got a huge one. The FAs the Bengals signed do matter, but Clements, Lawson, and Howard put together aren't making what Joseph is making.



It's based on more than salary as noted by the piece you referenced. In fact other than salary, all the other factors can't be evaluated until after the season

Stray
10-28-2011, 02:58 PM
Let's way to see how he handles adversity. Then we'll see how much he has in the way of intangibles.

I get that a lot of fans feel the way you do, to each their own. I personally try to keep things simple. When they're doing well it's enjoyable for me to watch them play. Instead of predicting what will go wrong I'd rather focus on what we've already done right. I guess I'm a glass half full guy.

To the part I quoted though. As you mentioned he's only started 6 games, and of course it's hard to make any real judgements on that sample size, but I don't think it's fair to say he hasn't faced adversity already. With the lockout and lack of OTAs and rookie camps/whatever else was cut short, he made the best of his situation and has wrapped his mind around our offense quicker than anyone could have hoped. He was facing a 20-3 deficit against the last undefeated AFC team and led his team to a victory. He's already overcame an injury and somewhat shortened week. His 4th quarter and 4th down decisions/play making have been off the chart. He's had a TERRIBLE 1st half that he rebounded from in the same game.

Now granted, I know he hasn't faced as much as Carson did, but like you said he's just 6 games in.

MWM
10-28-2011, 03:30 PM
Adversity is a 3-13 season with Mike Brown as an owner. Adversity is trying to be the QB of an ego-centric diva receiver who's all about himself and grabs a lot of attention. It's playing for one of the worst OC's in the game year in and year out.

The type of adversity that will truly test a guy's mettle isn't being down a few scores against a good team or not having a few extra weeks of practice in the off-season. Wait until they have a 6 game losing streak. That's when we'll learn what type of intangibles Andy Dalton has.

Stray
10-28-2011, 04:55 PM
Adversity is a 3-13 season with Mike Brown as an owner. Adversity is trying to be the QB of an ego-centric diva receiver who's all about himself and grabs a lot of attention. It's playing for one of the worst OC's in the game year in and year out.

The type of adversity that will truly test a guy's mettle isn't being down a few scores against a good team or not having a few extra weeks of practice in the off-season. Wait until they have a 6 game losing streak. That's when we'll learn what type of intangibles Andy Dalton has.

There are different degrees of adversity. To say he hasn't had to deal with any 6 games into his career is incorrect, he hasn't had to deal with what Carson had to.

That ego-centric receiver also made Carson look pretty good in his prime. Lost in all of the stuff towards the end of Chad's career has been just how dominant he was in his prime. I'm not bashing Carson here, I think a lot of good and bad can be said about the guy. The way he's taken the high road in the past week or so has been pretty cool in my book.

I just don't understand the doom and gloom outlook. If the Bengals ever drove me to the point as a fan where I'm worrying about potential bad stuff that might happen, and not about the good stuff that has happened, I'd have to question why it is even follow the team anymore. Like I said though, to each his own. With the adversity that Dalton has faced in 6 weeks he's responded extremely well...not just him either, the entire team. Dropping the dead weight did wonders for this team in that respect.

MWM
10-28-2011, 10:13 PM
Don't understand the doom and gloom for the Bengals? Really?

Stray
10-28-2011, 11:45 PM
I get why people feel that way, I just don't understand the point of it. To be perfectly honest, over my lifetime the Reds being terrible has bothered me a lot more than the Bengals so maybe I'm just not as emotionally invested as others are.

I would just think that with all of the years of being bad, and all of the years of talking about this team for all of the wrong reasons, this season...and these two rookies, would be a breath of fresh air for the fans. Something to be able to get behind and enjoy. I'm not talking about you specifically, I just notice from radio or online forums how many Bengals fans can't let themselves enjoy it. There's always the yeah buts, and the what ifs, they haven't played anyone, and the well eventually it's all gonna go downhill so what does it matter.

MWM
10-28-2011, 11:59 PM
There's a difference between choosing to not focus on the negative and to focus on having hope things are different because it makes more sense as a fan; and actually thinking it's going to happen. I totally get the former and even try to do that myself. But I stop short of looking at everything and thinking this is actually different and it's going to happen.

cincrazy
10-29-2011, 01:07 AM
Carson hasn't been the same since his elbow injury. It's plain as day IMO. He's not an awful QB, but he's not a QB anyone should pay big money to, and he's taking you MAYBE to the first round of the playoffs, and that's it. He's had a nice career, but he fell far, far short of where I thought he'd eventually up. It's natural to be disappointed, and that disappointment can skew the overall view of things.

But in 2005, if you would've told me things would have gone down like this.... wow.

fearofpopvol1
10-29-2011, 04:12 AM
Man, there are some serious over-reactions to all kinds of things in this thread. First of all, that was Marvin's perception, which could be influenced by him just trying to save face. Marvin decided to stay, but I don't think it was because he wanted to be in Cincinnati as much as its a pretty safe job with Mike Brown as his boss and there's a good chance he wouldn't be in high demand elsewhere. A head coaching gig in the NFL is a pretty good thing to have. Don't think Marvin is somehow objective in this. Carson sure didn't look like he had quit against San Diego last year. It's all a crock of BS if you ask me. I still don't blame Carson one bit for not wanting to play in Cincy anymore. He possibly could have handled it better but I can understand why he was so miserable here.

That's fine and that's your opinion, but don't expect a lot of people to agree with you. It's one thing to be miserable. It's another to sign a contract and not honor it (btw, I'd take Carson's misery at his salary). And to make matters worse, Carson quit the team and claimed he was "retiring" only to sit out in hopes of being traded when his intention was never to retire in the first place. Carson was extremely fortunate that the Raiders were willing to vastly overpay. I'm happy the Bengals received real value for Palmer, but I wouldn't have minded seeing him forced to either reunite with the Bengals and sit on the bench or actually be forced to retire like he claimed.

Redsfaithful
10-29-2011, 09:28 AM
There's a difference between choosing to not focus on the negative and to focus on having hope things are different because it makes more sense as a fan; and actually thinking it's going to happen. I totally get the former and even try to do that myself. But I stop short of looking at everything and thinking this is actually different and it's going to happen.

The thing is, even Mike Brown can get lucky. It hasn't really happened in 20 years, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. I don't expect the organization to be any different that it has been for the past 8 years, but I don't believe the Colts ownership is really all that much better than the Bengals, for instance, but look what Peyton Manning did for that franchise.

Not saying Andy Dalton is Peyton Manning, AT ALL, but it's possible the Bengals could put a few drafts together and have enough to make some deeper playoff runs.

I don't need that much from the Bengals. As Stray mentions, the Reds have bothered me more in the past decade than the Bengals. Castellini gets a pass on competitiveness for some reason that I don't really agree with.

MWM
10-29-2011, 10:01 AM
That's fine and that's your opinion, but don't expect a lot of people to agree with you. It's one thing to be miserable. It's another to sign a contract and not honor it (btw, I'd take Carson's misery at his salary). And to make matters worse, Carson quit the team and claimed he was "retiring" only to sit out in hopes of being traded when his intention was never to retire in the first place. Carson was extremely fortunate that the Raiders were willing to vastly overpay. I'm happy the Bengals received real value for Palmer, but I wouldn't have minded seeing him forced to either reunite with the Bengals and sit on the bench or actually be forced to retire like he claimed.

There are plenty of people who agree with me. And the whole "he signed a contract and should honor it" doesn't hold water with me because NFL teams, including the Bengals, don't do it all the time. If a player doesn't perform, their contract is not honored, so I'm not going to think Carson had some deficiency of character for deciding the Bengals didn't live up to what they said they were going to do, so him not wanting to be stuck.

MWM
10-29-2011, 10:09 AM
The thing is, even Mike Brown can get lucky. It hasn't really happened in 20 years, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. I don't expect the organization to be any different that it has been for the past 8 years, but I don't believe the Colts ownership is really all that much better than the Bengals, for instance, but look what Peyton Manning did for that franchise.

Not saying Andy Dalton is Peyton Manning, AT ALL, but it's possible the Bengals could put a few drafts together and have enough to make some deeper playoff runs.

I don't need that much from the Bengals. As Stray mentions, the Reds have bothered me more in the past decade than the Bengals. Castellini gets a pass on competitiveness for some reason that I don't really agree with.

Oh, the Reds are MUCH more a disappointment for me than the Bengals too.

The Colts went to the AFC title game in 1995 before the Peyton era. And the fact that they have a professional General Manager, and a good one at that, by itself makes them an exponentially better organization than the Bengals, IMO.

The problem with getting lucky is that in football it requires too many things to get lucky about. You've got a 55 man roster and the game of football has so many different facets you have to get right that the odds of getting lucky enough to go deep in the playoffs is incredibly slim. You have offensive line, running game, passing game, DBs, linebackers, pass rushers, D-lineman, offensive scheme, defensive scheme, specialty teams, etc... You can get lucky on some of those, but relying on luck in puttin together a football team just doesn't seem feasible.

All that said, I'll continue to hope and pay attention and root, but I'm not going to get excited and start to "believe". I'm just not wired that way in any area of my life.

Sea Ray
10-29-2011, 10:29 AM
There are plenty of people who agree with me. And the whole "he signed a contract and should honor it" doesn't hold water with me because NFL teams, including the Bengals, don't do it all the time. If a player doesn't perform, their contract is not honored, so I'm not going to think Carson had some deficiency of character for deciding the Bengals didn't live up to what they said they were going to do, so him not wanting to be stuck.

Actually Mike Brown did honor his contract even though his play deteriorated from what it was when he signed the contract. If anything the team babied him. They gave Carson TO (on request from Palmer), Gresham, Shipley and even his brother. They centered the team around him. Now we find out that Carson's quitting on the team was premeditated, calculated and by his own admission, selfish

fearofpopvol1
10-29-2011, 01:45 PM
There are plenty of people who agree with me. And the whole "he signed a contract and should honor it" doesn't hold water with me because NFL teams, including the Bengals, don't do it all the time. If a player doesn't perform, their contract is not honored, so I'm not going to think Carson had some deficiency of character for deciding the Bengals didn't live up to what they said they were going to do, so him not wanting to be stuck.

NFL teams cut players who are underperforming or who aren't playing to their worth. Say what you will about that system, but Carson wasn't cut or in danger of being cut. He very easily could have let his teammates and the fans down and put them in a rough spot. It worked out because of Dalton and the Raiders overpaying, but it doesn't make Carson a better person. If he had filed his papers for retirement and stuck with it, that'd be a different story.

Brutus
10-29-2011, 01:50 PM
NFL teams cut players who are underperforming or who aren't playing to their worth. Say what you will about that system, but Carson wasn't cut or in danger of being cut. He very easily could have let his teammates and the fans down and put them in a rough spot. It worked out because of Dalton and the Raiders overpaying, but it doesn't make Carson a better person. If he had filed his papers for retirement and stuck with it, that'd be a different story.

If teams can cut players who are under-performing, should it be a problem for players to want to cut their teams who are under-performing?

Just food for thought.

MWM
10-29-2011, 01:57 PM
If teams can cut players who are under-performing, should it be a problem for players to want to cut their teams who are under-performing?


That's really the point I was making that's being missed. If people think it's fine to cut players who are under-performing, then the "he signed a contract and should live up to it" argument goes out the window. The contracts players sign never say they have to play well. The contract says they are to play football for that team for a salary over a set period of time. So as long as a player is showing up to practice and the games, they are keeping their end of the contract. Why should owners not have to stick to theirs?

If sticking to a contract that was signed was so important, then it should be important all the time for all sides.

Stray
10-29-2011, 02:38 PM
If teams can cut players who are under-performing, should it be a problem for players to want to cut their teams who are under-performing?

Just food for thought.

Mike is the man signing their paychecks. I don't see a problem with him having the power in a situation like that. Who Carson really quit on was the fanbase, and that is unforgivable.

fearofpopvol1
10-29-2011, 03:01 PM
If teams can cut players who are under-performing, should it be a problem for players to want to cut their teams who are under-performing?

Just food for thought.

I think the lopsided rule is dumb, but that's a NFL union question.

As another poster pointed out, Carson quit on the fanbase, which is harder to forgive. A player quitting on his team is never a good thing. Some of us are just tired of diva sports players. Maybe I'm old school, but how many players quit on their teams in the 60s or 70s the way that Carson did on the Bengals?

But moreover, if Carson kept his word and filed his retirement papers, I think you'd hear less people up in arms.

CTA513
10-29-2011, 03:19 PM
He had no reason to file retirement papers since he wanted to be traded and doesn't need the benefits.

Marvin and Bengals should be happy he kept quite and didn't run his mouth like #85 did when he wanted to be traded.
Then again all it took was tweeting, free dinners and movies to buy back about 70% of the fan base after he crapped all over them.

MWM
10-29-2011, 04:00 PM
This whole quitting on the fanbase is rubbish. Mike Brown can't quit on the fanbase because he never started to begin with. He's never cared one iota about the Bengals fanbase and never will. His entire tenure running the bengals has been all about him and his selfishness. Carson cared more about the fanbase last year than Mikey boy ever has. If it's about the fanbase, the there's only one person to point a finger at.

Orenda
10-29-2011, 04:09 PM
in my opinion, this deal doesnt get done without the new rookie wage scale for draft picks. that is just how mike brown operates, remember the chad offers that he passed on? i respect the way carson has handled it, he didnt want to be a part of the organization and he stuck to his guns. he hasnt been retaliating through the media and dragging marvin and mike through the mud. he has taken ownership of his actions and now he is getting ripped by cincy. that pretty much says it all to me.

Redhook
10-29-2011, 05:10 PM
Carson quit on the fanbase, which is harder to forgive.

Please. Carson did not quit the fan base. He quit Mike Brown and I don't blame him one bit. I'm a lifelong Bengals fan and have applauded Carson Palmer from Day 1 since he told Mikey Boy to shove it. I haven't felt slighted at all with him leaving.

MWM
10-29-2011, 05:12 PM
One thing that's been forgotten in this is Mike Brown's hypocrisy in this. People were lauding him for not giving into Carson and expecting him to live up to his contract. How many times did Brown come out and say something about how Carson signed a contract and it was the right thing for him to honor his contract.

He was claiming to make a stance on principle. But once a really good offer was on the table, expecting Carson to honor his contract all of a sudden wasn't quite so important. In the end, it wasn't about Carson honoring his contract, it was about getting the right offer.

Redhook
10-29-2011, 05:16 PM
Additionally, I live in Cincinnati and haven't met one person who is up in arms with Carson leaving. Not one. Mike Brown has ruined the fanbase here with his selfish, obtuse ways.

I find it ironic that just once Mike Brown has finally gotten a little taste of what he has done to the city of Cincinnati with Carson leaving here. And, I think it's awesome.

traderumor
10-29-2011, 05:19 PM
Man, there are some serious over-reactions to all kinds of things in this thread. First of all, that was Marvin's perception, which could be influenced by him just trying to save face. Marvin decided to stay, but I don't think it was because he wanted to be in Cincinnati as much as its a pretty safe job with Mike Brown as his boss and there's a good chance he wouldn't be in high demand elsewhere. A head coaching gig in the NFL is a pretty good thing to have. Don't think Marvin is somehow objective in this. Carson sure didn't look like he had quit against San Diego last year. It's all a crock of BS if you ask me. I still don't blame Carson one bit for not wanting to play in Cincy anymore. He possibly could have handled it better but I can understand why he was so miserable here.

And I can't believe people are making judgments based on last Sunday when he had 3 days of practice after not having any training camp or anything else. If you think he won't be better, either later this year or next year, you're just not thinking clearly. He's not an elite QB but to think he's going to be a bad one is believing what you want to believe.

I also think people are WAY ahead of themselves on Dalton. I love what the guy has done and the intangibles he seems to bring with him, but all these same things were said about Palmer once upon a time, and Palmer had MUCH more talent. Let's give him a few years in this organization and see how much leadership he has. Jon Kitna has great leadership skills, I doubt anyone wants him back.

I'll readily admit that I'm biased when it comes to the Bengals...biased by cynicism. I'll continue to root for them and hope they turn into a team capable of winning in the playoffs, but I've seen this movie before. In the past 20 years, this same cycle where something or someone comes along and everyone thinks "this is different" and start to believe the franchise has turned the corner and has a bright future has happened at least 4-5 times. I don't see how this is any different. It's not hard to put together a team that is close to winning. Anyone can do that every once in a while. It's difficult to take that next step to having an organization that can seriously compete for a super bowl. I don't believe Mike Brown has any clue how to get there. He can get them close and do enough to provide optimism, but he'll never get them over the edge. Doesn't mean I won't be a fan and hope for something better, but I'm not going to invest in any kind of belief that it will like a lot of people are doing.I keep on seeing this analogy and it is poor. Kitna was never, ever close to having the talent that Dalton has. Kitna always was a backup QB who got a few starting gigs in subpar programs. Dalton is clearly a starting NFL QB who also has the "gets it" factor. Take a guy like that any day over a strong arm like Palmer. Dalton comps more with Ken Anderson at this stage. Smart, accurate QBs are much more reliable than a guy like Palmer, who only had the arm.

Sea Ray
10-29-2011, 06:23 PM
If teams can cut players who are under-performing, should it be a problem for players to want to cut their teams who are under-performing?

Just food for thought.

Well we can debate it but the players had a chance to work out such a system with the owners a few months ago and they didn't. I don't see what the purpose is of debating a hypothetical. Now that the lockout is over and they've agreed to a long term labor agreement, let's accept what is and that is that players are signed to mutliple one yr contracts and that means the owners control their situation like MB did here

Sea Ray
10-29-2011, 06:25 PM
One thing that's been forgotten in this is Mike Brown's hypocrisy in this. People were lauding him for not giving into Carson and expecting him to live up to his contract. How many times did Brown come out and say something about how Carson signed a contract and it was the right thing for him to honor his contract.

He was claiming to make a stance on principle. But once a really good offer was on the table, expecting Carson to honor his contract all of a sudden wasn't quite so important. In the end, it wasn't about Carson honoring his contract, it was about getting the right offer.

It was all a negotiating ploy nesigned to keep the press from hounding him with questions and to drive up Carson's price. Hindsight shows that it worked to perfection

Brutus
10-29-2011, 07:23 PM
I think the lopsided rule is dumb, but that's a NFL union question.

As another poster pointed out, Carson quit on the fanbase, which is harder to forgive. A player quitting on his team is never a good thing. Some of us are just tired of diva sports players. Maybe I'm old school, but how many players quit on their teams in the 60s or 70s the way that Carson did on the Bengals?

But moreover, if Carson kept his word and filed his retirement papers, I think you'd hear less people up in arms.

I agree that the inequality is a union issue. However, Carson isn't playing for the fans. He's playing for himself and his team. He doesn't owe the fans anything. While the fans are responsible for paychecks, nonetheless we should not be so entitled to think the players owe us. We buy tickets and watch because we enjoy it and because we want to... not because they owe us anything.

traderumor
10-30-2011, 08:01 AM
One thing that's been forgotten in this is Mike Brown's hypocrisy in this. People were lauding him for not giving into Carson and expecting him to live up to his contract. How many times did Brown come out and say something about how Carson signed a contract and it was the right thing for him to honor his contract.

He was claiming to make a stance on principle. But once a really good offer was on the table, expecting Carson to honor his contract all of a sudden wasn't quite so important. In the end, it wasn't about Carson honoring his contract, it was about getting the right offer.I don't follow what you're saying. He did not release him from his contract, it was a trade. I kind of look at it like a spouse who wants to leave with no fuss, no muss. I'll take my stuff, you keep your stuff and we'll just have a nice, quiet annulment. Not dissolution, annulment.

Brown took the stance of "oh no, you will honor this commitment. You can leave, can't stop you there, but you get nothing." Eventually, they agreed to a dissolution. I don't really see that as hypocrisy, but resolving the issue in a way that both parties could agree.

traderumor
10-30-2011, 08:11 AM
I agree that the inequality is a union issue. However, Carson isn't playing for the fans. He's playing for himself and his team. He doesn't owe the fans anything. While the fans are responsible for paychecks, nonetheless we should not be so entitled to think the players owe us. We buy tickets and watch because we enjoy it and because we want to... not because they owe us anything.In any business that has customers, the workers have a customer service responsibility and an ethical responsibility to do their job to the best of their ability for the benefit of the customers to make them want to buy the product. No customers, no business. A business that doesn't recognize this is doomed. I would submit that there is evidence that some leaders in professional sports think like you do, that they ARE the business. They always find out that no one is bigger than the business.

Furthermore, the fans are in no way responsible for paychecks, the owners are. The owner has to pay contracts whether a fan shows up or not. If anyone has no responsibility in this business, it is the fan. They are the true free agents, who have no dependency on anyone and can buy or not buy tickets and merchandise, but have no moral or ethical responsibility to do so.

cincrazy
10-30-2011, 12:27 PM
Today is going to be a tough, tough game. Win this game, and I'll be REALLY impressed. The Seahawks aren't a particularly good team, but they've got a really good defense, and they're a different team at home. I think the defense plays well today, but this game lies in the hands of Andy Dalton. How he handles that defense and that atmosphere will determine who wins this game.

Brutus
10-30-2011, 12:32 PM
In any business that has customers, the workers have a customer service responsibility and an ethical responsibility to do their job to the best of their ability for the benefit of the customers to make them want to buy the product. No customers, no business. A business that doesn't recognize this is doomed. I would submit that there is evidence that some leaders in professional sports think like you do, that they ARE the business. They always find out that no one is bigger than the business.

Furthermore, the fans are in no way responsible for paychecks, the owners are. The owner has to pay contracts whether a fan shows up or not. If anyone has no responsibility in this business, it is the fan. They are the true free agents, who have no dependency on anyone and can buy or not buy tickets and merchandise, but have no moral or ethical responsibility to do so.

Business owners have no ethical responsibility to customers. If the customer doesn't like the service they're given, they can find it from another (better) business. It's not smart business to give shoddy service, but there's nothing 'unethical' about poor service.

But you're right... fans aren't responsible for paychecks which was my point exactly: Carson didn't quit on the fans because he wasn't playing for the fans nor should that matter.

Stray
10-30-2011, 07:26 PM
5-2

Wasn't the prettiest game you'll ever see, but I like it.

CTA513
10-30-2011, 07:29 PM
5-2

Wasn't the prettiest game you'll ever see, but I like it.

Its a good thing the Seahawks for some reason started Whitehurst instead of Jackson or this might have been a different game.

cincrazy
10-30-2011, 08:20 PM
This is just a wonderfully coached football team. And dare I say, I saw Marvin cracking a smile on the sideline towards the end. You can tell he loves coaching this group. They don't have as much collective talent as Baltimore or Pittsburgh, but they get it done week after week. 5-2 through 7? I'll take that.

The Operator
10-30-2011, 08:29 PM
Pretty or not, 5-2 is something I never expected in my wildest dreams after 7 games from this team. They're showing a lot of heart and intangibles. Such a refreshing change of pace.

traderumor
10-30-2011, 09:14 PM
Business owners have no ethical responsibility to customers. If the customer doesn't like the service they're given, they can find it from another (better) business. It's not smart business to give shoddy service, but there's nothing 'unethical' about poor service.

But you're right... fans aren't responsible for paychecks which was my point exactly: Carson didn't quit on the fans because he wasn't playing for the fans nor should that matter.
Really? So, if I buy a ticket to a game, they can cancel the game and not refund my money? If I buy a seat license and they promise me that it includes a steak and a bottle of wine, they can just shrug and say "sorry, all I have is JTM meat patties and Old Milwaukee beer. I have no ethical responsibility to provide what I promised"? Even winning can be seen as an implied ethical responsibility to do all that one can to put the best product on the field. Try to be cheap and make money while putting an inferior product on the field, and the fans will demonstrate that implied ethical responsibility.

Again, your view sounds like Mike Brown's view for years and resulted in predictably dismal results. I think he got that there is an implied ethical responsibility here or you will lose your business. So you see some signs of the org. getting it.

Please do not become an owner of a team that I root for, Brutus.

traderumor
10-30-2011, 09:44 PM
As for the football team on the field, the D may keep them in the playoff hunt all season. This may just be an above average football team.

Sea Ray
10-30-2011, 10:00 PM
I agree that the inequality is a union issue. However, Carson isn't playing for the fans. He's playing for himself and his team. He doesn't owe the fans anything.

I agree. He doesn't owe us anything and we don't owe him anything including protecting his reputation. We can slam him all we want especially when we hear Marvin say he quit on the team before the season was over

CTA513
10-30-2011, 10:22 PM
I agree. He doesn't owe us anything and we don't owe him anything including protecting his reputation. We can slam him all we want especially when we hear Marvin say he quit on the team before the season was over

Any team that lets a guy they say quit before the season was over play should also be slammed.

Sea Ray
10-30-2011, 11:35 PM
Any team that lets a guy they say quit before the season was over play should also be slammed.

Gotta admit they didn't have much behind him. I think they had to play him under the circumstances. They can't bench him because of a sutle not being into it by Palmer. But don't worry, the Bengals organization gets slammed regularly. There's no lack of that as they are an easy target

HeatherC1212
10-31-2011, 12:01 AM
I honestly wasn't sure what was going to happen this season. I have no clue what's going to happen for the rest of the season. I only know one thing for sure: I really like this team. They may not be THE most talented team in the NFL but they have heart, they don't give up, and they actually want to be here. They're also showing a ton of poise and confidence for a very young team and never seem to be out of a game. They're exciting to watch and win or lose, I find myself caring more this year than I did last year. These things are all pluses in my book so I'm a happy fan. Who Dey!! :D

Yachtzee
10-31-2011, 12:58 AM
Business owners have no ethical responsibility to customers. If the customer doesn't like the service they're given, they can find it from another (better) business. It's not smart business to give shoddy service, but there's nothing 'unethical' about poor service.

But you're right... fans aren't responsible for paychecks which was my point exactly: Carson didn't quit on the fans because he wasn't playing for the fans nor should that matter.

You're kidding right? Lack of ethics and sound business practices are what got the Banking Industry in the predicament it now finds itself.

The fans are the sole reason for the NFL's existence. Without fans, the NFL would stand for "No Freakin' League." Owners would probably be in some other line of business and players would be playing weekend pickup games at the local field. When you take someone's money, you have both an ethical and a contractual obligation to give them your best effort to provide the service you offer. Anything less is theft. Believe me, I deal with it in my line of work all the time. Granted, players won't often get arrested for theft for failing to put forth their best efforts in a game, just because it's hard to prove without hard evidence that they took actions to intentionally throw a game. But the concept is still the same. If I buy a ticket to the game, I have every right to expect that the players are putting forth their best efforts. If I find out later that a player wasn't doing so, then I have every right to complain because he already got my money. Carson Palmer owes his career to people that buy tickets, just as every other professional athlete does.

Brutus
10-31-2011, 01:26 AM
You're kidding right? Lack of ethics and sound business practices are what got the Banking Industry in the predicament it now finds itself.

The fans are the sole reason for the NFL's existence. Without fans, the NFL would stand for "No Freakin' League." Owners would probably be in some other line of business and players would be playing weekend pickup games at the local field. When you take someone's money, you have both an ethical and a contractual obligation to give them your best effort to provide the service you offer. Anything less is theft. Believe me, I deal with it in my line of work all the time. Granted, players won't often get arrested for theft for failing to put forth their best efforts in a game, just because it's hard to prove without hard evidence that they took actions to intentionally throw a game. But the concept is still the same. If I buy a ticket to the game, I have every right to expect that the players are putting forth their best efforts. If I find out later that a player wasn't doing so, then I have every right to complain because he already got my money. Carson Palmer owes his career to people that buy tickets, just as every other professional athlete does.

What does ethics by banks have to do with making customers happy?

Brutus
10-31-2011, 01:29 AM
Really? So, if I buy a ticket to a game, they can cancel the game and not refund my money? If I buy a seat license and they promise me that it includes a steak and a bottle of wine, they can just shrug and say "sorry, all I have is JTM meat patties and Old Milwaukee beer. I have no ethical responsibility to provide what I promised"? Even winning can be seen as an implied ethical responsibility to do all that one can to put the best product on the field. Try to be cheap and make money while putting an inferior product on the field, and the fans will demonstrate that implied ethical responsibility.

Again, your view sounds like Mike Brown's view for years and resulted in predictably dismal results. I think he got that there is an implied ethical responsibility here or you will lose your business. So you see some signs of the org. getting it.

Please do not become an owner of a team that I root for, Brutus.

You are really conflating this issue badly.

I said a business has no ethical obligation to make sure you're satisfied. That's not the same as giving you what you paid for (i.e. a ticket).

If you buy a seat, they are ethically obliged to be sure you get the seat. They are not, however, ethically obliged to make sure you enjoy yourself.

Here was your exactly quote:


In any business that has customers, the workers have a customer service responsibility and an ethical responsibility to do their job to the best of their ability for the benefit of the customers to make them want to buy the product.

They have no ethical responsibility to "make them want to buy the product."

All they have is a responsibility to provide the product that is purchased. If you don't like the quality of the product, then you can take your business elsewhere and they will suffer. But they have no obligation, ethically, to provide a quality product.

bucksfan2
10-31-2011, 09:09 AM
As for the football team on the field, the D may keep them in the playoff hunt all season. This may just be an above average football team.

At the beginning of the season I thought this team was going to have a W-L better than many had predicted. I didn't think it would say much about the team, more so about the schedule. We all saw how the schedule set up, they got two of the weakest conferences (NFC West and AFC South) as well as two 4th place teams in the AFC. The schedule also set up nicely giving them time to gel and develop with a weak first half. That said I never expect Dalton and Green to be at this point in their careers right now. Both are better than I could have hoped for.

Their D and special teams are among the best in the league. I tend to think that when Nuggent hit that 48 yard FG to put the Bengals up 8 is pretty much sealed the deal. After that the defense pinned their ears back and made plays. Dunlap the big sack, Tate the punt return for TD, then Nelson the TD at the end. I think the D is good enough to keep the Bengals in the playoff hunt all season long. Even the Ravens have some serious holes on their offense. The Steelers will spell trouble with they play them.

I think the Bengals are an above average football team trending in the right direction.

Hoosier Red
10-31-2011, 10:20 AM
To be honest, the rest of the season is house money to a certain extent.

This team is young and talented. And they have a boat load of draft picks coming in the next few years. What's really refreshing is that the defense in particular isn't built around any one guy. This means that 1)If someone signs elsewhere it's not a crushing loss and 2) There isn't a single position group which can't be upgraded if a star quality player becomes available.


Pittsburgh and Baltimore are among the older defenses in the league. So this year may not be the one for the Bengals, but there's obviously a pretty bright future.

traderumor
10-31-2011, 10:36 AM
You are really conflating this issue badly.

I said a business has no ethical obligation to make sure you're satisfied. That's not the same as giving you what you paid for (i.e. a ticket).

If you buy a seat, they are ethically obliged to be sure you get the seat. They are not, however, ethically obliged to make sure you enjoy yourself.

Here was your exactly quote:



They have no ethical responsibility to "make them want to buy the product."

All they have is a responsibility to provide the product that is purchased. If you don't like the quality of the product, then you can take your business elsewhere and they will suffer. But they have no obligation, ethically, to provide a quality product.The comment I responded to, which I won't quote here but let you go back and look at the record, stated that the organization had no ethical responsibility to its fans. If you are clarifying, then say you are clarifying, but you were absolute: "no ethical responsibility," now it is "to provide a quality product?" That is a distinction that you were not making in the post I responded to.

Sea Ray
10-31-2011, 10:37 AM
I honestly wasn't sure what was going to happen this season. I have no clue what's going to happen for the rest of the season. I only know one thing for sure: I really like this team. They may not be THE most talented team in the NFL but they have heart, they don't give up, and they actually want to be here. They're also showing a ton of poise and confidence for a very young team and never seem to be out of a game. They're exciting to watch and win or lose, I find myself caring more this year than I did last year. These things are all pluses in my book so I'm a happy fan. Who Dey!! :D

One of the things that's changing from past years is that their starting QB is going to show up for Bengalsline tonight. WLW confirmed this morning that Carson never ever was a Monday Bengalsline guest

Brutus
10-31-2011, 01:20 PM
The comment I responded to, which I won't quote here but let you go back and look at the record, stated that the organization had no ethical responsibility to its fans. If you are clarifying, then say you are clarifying, but you were absolute: "no ethical responsibility," now it is "to provide a quality product?" That is a distinction that you were not making in the post I responded to.

Well I apologize if that wasn't clear. I thought it followed that I was responding to the idea that they don't owe customer satisfaction to the fans. Certainly they owe what it is being advertised as being paid for. In this thread, however, the tone has been about making the fans happy... not being cheated out of their seats, tickets, etc., so I didn't see where that would be an issue.

Stray
10-31-2011, 02:13 PM
I love how so many 'experts' are trying to discredit what we've done this year. They went from saying we were the worst team in the NFL to now saying our 5-2 doesn't mean anything because we've had an easy schedule. Those two just don't add up.

Looking at the schedule Arizona, St. Louis, and Cleveland are now must win games, that would get us to 8. Say we keep it rolling in Tennessee this weekend and we'd be one tough win away from potentially posting 10 wins and sitting comfortably in the playoff race. I know it's still too early to look ahead, but it's definitely doable. Especially with how Marvin and Zimmer can gameplan against the Ravens.

cincrazy
10-31-2011, 08:24 PM
Rick Reilly said we'd be 0-16 this season.

I sent him an email reminding him of this prediction.

Needless to say, he hasn't responded to said email.

WVRed
10-31-2011, 11:11 PM
Rick Reilly said we'd be 0-16 this season.

I sent him an email reminding him of this prediction.

Needless to say, he hasn't responded to said email.

I'd wait until we're in the playoffs and flood his mailbox.

fearofpopvol1
11-01-2011, 02:57 AM
I agree that the inequality is a union issue. However, Carson isn't playing for the fans. He's playing for himself and his team. He doesn't owe the fans anything. While the fans are responsible for paychecks, nonetheless we should not be so entitled to think the players owe us. We buy tickets and watch because we enjoy it and because we want to... not because they owe us anything.

The union doesn't have that power unfortunately, so Palmer should've honored his contract, plain and simple. If the union did have that power, your point would have more merit.

fearofpopvol1
11-01-2011, 02:58 AM
Please. Carson did not quit the fan base. He quit Mike Brown and I don't blame him one bit. I'm a lifelong Bengals fan and have applauded Carson Palmer from Day 1 since he told Mikey Boy to shove it. I haven't felt slighted at all with him leaving.

Well good for you. Blaming Mike Brown's history of bad decisions doesn't make Carson Palmer's decision to quit on his team and the fans a good one, I'm sorry to inform you.

Todd Gack
11-01-2011, 05:34 AM
Well good for you. Blaming Mike Brown's history of bad decisions doesn't make Carson Palmer's decision to quit on his team and the fans a good one, I'm sorry to inform you.

It sure is nice to see a Bengals player with some set of principles.

Redhook
11-01-2011, 07:45 AM
Blaming Mike Brown's history of bad decisions doesn't make Carson Palmer's decision to quit on his team and the fans a good one, I'm sorry to inform you.

You're right, it turns out Carson Palmer's decision wasn't a good decision. It was a great one for everyone involved.

A little recap of what has happened to the Bengals since Palmer decided he was done with them:

1) Brat is gone
2) 85 and TO are gone
3) Draft Andy Dalton
4) Don't have to play an aging, less than average QB
5) Receive 2 very high draft picks

Those are just 5 of the positives and most have happened because Carson Palmer decided to leave. This decision by Palmer is going to help this teams for quite a few years and will go down as one of the best things to ever happen to this team. Thank you Carson!

Mario-Rijo
11-01-2011, 10:17 AM
You're right, it turns out Carson Palmer's decision wasn't a good decision. It was a great one for everyone involved.

A little recap of what has happened to the Bengals since Palmer decided he was done with them:

1) Brat is gone
2) 85 and TO are gone
3) Draft Andy Dalton
4) Don't have to play an aging, less than average QB
5) Receive 2 very high draft picks

Those are just 5 of the positives and most have happened because Carson Palmer decided to leave. This decision by Palmer is going to help this teams for quite a few years and will go down as one of the best things to ever happen to this team. Thank you Carson!

While it may be true it doesn't change the fact that Palmer quit on everyone. In fact I am gonna go a step further that I never thought I'd say but I am not so sure he ever fully embraced the concept of being a Bengal in the 1st place. He's a West Coast person to the core, one who always seemed to keep the midwest and it's people at arms length. But in the end he got what he wanted most and that was his pockets filled. Well played loser, well played!

IslandRed
11-01-2011, 11:19 AM
I am not so sure he ever fully embraced the concept of being a Bengal in the 1st place. He's a West Coast person to the core, one who always seemed to keep the midwest and it's people at arms length.

Well, if there wasn't for this thing called a Draft, you wouldn't have had to suffer him. :p

bucksfan2
11-01-2011, 12:04 PM
You're right, it turns out Carson Palmer's decision wasn't a good decision. It was a great one for everyone involved.

A little recap of what has happened to the Bengals since Palmer decided he was done with them:

1) Brat is gone
2) 85 and TO are gone
3) Draft Andy Dalton
4) Don't have to play an aging, less than average QB
5) Receive 2 very high draft picks

Those are just 5 of the positives and most have happened because Carson Palmer decided to leave. This decision by Palmer is going to help this teams for quite a few years and will go down as one of the best things to ever happen to this team. Thank you Carson!

#1 I think Brat was gone when Marvin resigned. I think that it was a sticking point in the negotiations that Marvin get more control of coaches. I don't think Brat getting fired had anything to do with Carson Palmer.

#2 TO was a foregone conclusion that he would not return. Then the knee injury and TO wasn't going to be a Bengal this season. I also don't know how much Carson had to do with Chad's departure. I think it was pretty evident he wasn't the dynamic WR anymore and you couldn't put up with his antics.

#3 May have been the most important one here. The Bengals weren't going to move on to a different QB with Carson still playing. Its pretty much league wide that teams hold onto franchise QB's longer than they should. I was getting disappointed that the Bengals didn't look in the 2nd or 3rd rounds for a replacement for Carson has his play deteriorated. Heck I thought they should have taken a stab at Colt McCoy in the prior draft.

#4 Yep

#5 Yep

I am glad Carson went out the way he did. But I still think he quit on the team.

fearofpopvol1
11-01-2011, 01:49 PM
You're right, it turns out Carson Palmer's decision wasn't a good decision. It was a great one for everyone involved.

A little recap of what has happened to the Bengals since Palmer decided he was done with them:

1) Brat is gone
2) 85 and TO are gone
3) Draft Andy Dalton
4) Don't have to play an aging, less than average QB
5) Receive 2 very high draft picks

Those are just 5 of the positives and most have happened because Carson Palmer decided to leave. This decision by Palmer is going to help this teams for quite a few years and will go down as one of the best things to ever happen to this team. Thank you Carson!

I am glad it worked out for everyone involved, but it doesn't change the fact that Carson did quite on the fans and his team.

Sea Ray
11-01-2011, 02:31 PM
#1 I think Brat was gone when Marvin resigned. I think that it was a sticking point in the negotiations that Marvin get more control of coaches. I don't think Brat getting fired had anything to do with Carson Palmer.



If that's the case then why did they announce at that somber presser in mid January that there would be no coaching changes? It was weeks later that Brat was canned. I got the impression that MB did that kicking and screaming after seeing folks balk at renewing their tickets

medford
11-01-2011, 02:36 PM
I never blamed Carson for taking his retire or trade me stance. It was the only leverage he had, if he's been smart he's got enough money in the bank to last forever. The franchise has been in horrible shape for the last 2 decades plus, save a few seasons when Carson was on top of his game, he had little reason to think son of Paul would go out and do the things needed to right the ship. I have my doubts that he ever quited on the team from an in game perspective, however it wouldn't surprise me much if half way thru last season a 4 hour film study on a Tuesday afternoon in season's prior may have turned into a 1 hour film study. Carson was officially beat down by losing ways of the franchise. Carson was part of the problem, at least the last couple of seasons, but I doubt the ego of the average athlete would allow him to see that as clearly as many outside of the organization saw it.

In the end, as I view things now, I think Carson did a huge favor to the organization. Carson just wasn't the same QB he's been in past seasons, since he Kimo the Assassin snapped his knee in two. If Mike Brown is nothing else, he's extremely loyal. I have little doubt, had Carson decided he wanted to play out his contract, the Bengals would have held on to him for the next 3 seasons, hoping to catch a little bit of that past glory. Instead they were forced to look at the future and landed Andy Dalton on top of the homerun they hit with AJ Green at the top of 1. Landing 2 top draft picks for Carson in the future, along w/ their own top draft picks enables the franchise to move into contender if they have similar success in the draft the next couple of seasons as they've had in the last couple.

I was listening to Colin Cowherd the other day. I typically can't stand him, but he said something that clicked with me. He was talking to an NFL scout that had passed along the wisdom that you need a QB willing to stand in the pocket and wait the extra half a second to deliver the ball, even if it means they'll get hit. I forget which QB of today Colin was talking about that didn't have that quality and it played a huge roll in why he struggles, but he went on to mention how Dalton has it, Big Ben, Peyton, Brady, etc... all have it (named about 8 different QBs, some young like Dalton, some experienced like those above). he continued to mention it as a big reason why Jimmy Clauson never worked as well as a few other guys.

I don't know about the other guys, but when I think of Carson post the playoff game, he clearly showed the lack of willingness to stand in that extra second and deliver the big pass. The arm injuried didn't help, but its why I question if he'll work in Oakland.

Todd Gack
11-01-2011, 03:08 PM
I am glad it worked out for everyone involved, but it doesn't change the fact that Carson did quite on the fans and his team.

Carson Palmer has no obligation to you as a fan? Quitting on the players is an argument that can be made. But what does he owe you?

traderumor
11-01-2011, 06:45 PM
Carson Palmer has no obligation to you as a fan? Quitting on the players is an argument that can be made. But what does he owe you?To give it all he's got every time he steps on the field. It's like saying a Broadway actor has no obligation to theater goers who paid hundreds, maybe thousands for a ticket, only to the other actors.

I really, really don't get this line of reasoning about employees not having an obligation to patrons of a business. Has American ethics, poisoned by the rugged individualism philosophy, slipped that far that some folks actually believe that nonsense?

The buzzword is "stakeholders," and in the business of professional sports, fans certainly are stakeholders as they invest their time, buy tickets and merchandise, and/or are employed by the team. Or maybe they have a complimentary business that benefits from the success of the professional sports franchise.

But then, those who don't see employees having an obligation to fans must be in customer service, because that seems to be the mindset of businesses toward their customers in this culture. The new American way.

Yachtzee
11-01-2011, 08:13 PM
Carson Palmer has no obligation to you as a fan? Quitting on the players is an argument that can be made. But what does he owe you?

If I buy a ticket to the game, he owes me his best effort to try and win the game. If he wants to fake it, then maybe he should go into pro wrestling. There he can just follow the script, because because everyone knows pro wrestling is fake. I don't watch the NFL to see lollygaggers go through the motions.

Chip R
11-01-2011, 10:17 PM
Rick Reilly said we'd be 0-16 this season.

I sent him an email reminding him of this prediction.

Needless to say, he hasn't responded to said email.

Will this column make you happy?

http://espn.go.com/blog/rick-reilly-go-fish/post/_/id/1000/rick-reillys-mail-bag-cant-win-em-all

MWM
11-01-2011, 11:21 PM
This such a silly conversation. What indication do we have that Carson didn't give his best effort in the games he played? The last game as a Bengal was one of his best.

fearofpopvol1
11-02-2011, 02:51 AM
This such a silly conversation. What indication do we have that Carson didn't give his best effort in the games he played? The last game as a Bengal was one of his best.

Quitting under contract is not playing his best, don't you think?

Todd Gack
11-02-2011, 06:32 AM
Quitting under contract is not playing his best, don't you think?

I'm disappointed Mike Brown cut Laverneous Coles before his contract was up.

Stray
11-02-2011, 10:57 AM
It's surprising how many people still want to stick up for Carson. I don't know if he quit last season, but if he didn't he's really not that good anymore. It doesn't matter to me either way because he said he would rather sit on his butt than play here. I don't think Cincinnati is the best city in America or anything, but I have enough pride to take offense to that. The Bengals haven't been nearly as bad as people make them out to be in recent years, so from that point of view I don't get it either (especially since he went to the Raiders who have also been pretty bad recently).

I could understand it more if it were a player like Brandon Phillips...a guy that has been actively involved with this city's fans. Someone fans felt like they knew on a more personal level and cared about. When did Carson ever go out of his way to show that he cared about us? Heck, Dalton did Bengals line the other night and they mentioned how Carson never did it once. Carson was a big part of the problem last year, and instead of manning up to try to and get better he took his ball and went home.

What makes the NFL more exciting than MLB is that every year you can have a turnaround. No team is out of it before the season starts. Part of that is their salary cap, another part of it is teams don't get buried with horrible contracts. Owners/GMs having the freedom to cut these guys is keeping a better product on the field and maintaining competitive balance. Something neither baseball or the NBA can say.

Like someone said way earlier in this thread, looking at NFL contracts you have to just look at the guaranteed up front money. More often than not if you under perform you will not see out that contract, and if you over perform you will negotiate a new deal before it ever ends (except for Matt Forte who for some reason is still not being paid what he's worth).

Hoosier Red
11-02-2011, 11:07 AM
Quitting under contract is not playing his best, don't you think?

No, I think there's a large difference. What happens off the field is no one's business but Carson and the team. Once he decides he's going to play, then he needs to give it his all in practice, in games, etc...

But if for whatever reason he decides he can't do that, then he's under no obligation(ethical or otherwise) to come in and work where he is unhappy.

Hoosier Red
11-02-2011, 11:14 AM
To give it all he's got every time he steps on the field. It's like saying a Broadway actor has no obligation to theater goers who paid hundreds, maybe thousands for a ticket, only to the other actors.

I really, really don't get this line of reasoning about employees not having an obligation to patrons of a business. Has American ethics, poisoned by the rugged individualism philosophy, slipped that far that some folks actually believe that nonsense?

The buzzword is "stakeholders," and in the business of professional sports, fans certainly are stakeholders as they invest their time, buy tickets and merchandise, and/or are employed by the team. Or maybe they have a complimentary business that benefits from the success of the professional sports franchise.

But then, those who don't see employees having an obligation to fans must be in customer service, because that seems to be the mindset of businesses toward their customers in this culture. The new American way.

I think we all agree on the same premise, it's just the term "ethical responsibility" that clouds the issue.

It's in the broadway performer's best interest to give his best effort(for he'll want people to keep paying to come see him sing) and it's in Mike Brown's best interest to put the best product on the field that he can.

But is it an ethical lapse if he doesn't? I don't know if I'd go that far. So long as there's no false advertising involved. (ie A broadway theatre tells you that Hugh Jackman is going to do his one man show, but really it's the Hugh Jackman from Brooklyn who just wipes his nose for 3 hours) than I don't think there's any lack of ethics.

FWIW, I think Mike Brown puts his best effort into putting the best team on the field. However, I think his best effort is constantly constrained by his inability to objectively see what is best for the team.

fearofpopvol1
11-02-2011, 01:19 PM
No, I think there's a large difference. What happens off the field is no one's business but Carson and the team. Once he decides he's going to play, then he needs to give it his all in practice, in games, etc...

But if for whatever reason he decides he can't do that, then he's under no obligation(ethical or otherwise) to come in and work where he is unhappy.

Was Carson physically unable to play? Because last I checked, he didn't have any physical ailments and was under contract.

Sea Ray
11-02-2011, 01:45 PM
None of us can prove whether he quit or not, but there's a big problem somewhere if his coach thinks he did

medford
11-03-2011, 09:34 AM
Anybody else catch Marvin on Mike & Mike this morning? Is it just me, or did Marvin admit to cheating this offseason during the lockout.

Paraphasing, after Greenie said "when all the 'geniuses' said this offseason (lockout) was the worst time possible to break in a rookie QB due to the lack of OTAs extended training camps, time with players, etc.. how were you able to get Andy Dalton so well versed in the offense?" Marvin responded by saying that even though the offense was completely new to everyone in the organization, they spent more time with Andy during the offseason on the offense and when camp broke he was farther ahead in the offense than any of his teammates.

The only way to spend extra time with Andy would have been to do it off the record during the lockout. Now I'm not naive enough to think this wasn't happening around the league, but I doubt the empty suit in New York wants any of his teams admitting to it. Of course, now that the lockout is behind, its all small potatoes, just interesting to hear a coach basically admit to working outside the parameters this offseason

Sea Ray
11-03-2011, 11:11 AM
Anybody else catch Marvin on Mike & Mike this morning? Is it just me, or did Marvin admit to cheating this offseason during the lockout.



That's interesting you say that because it hit me the same way and I was wondering if anyone else would bring it up. It was my understanding that the coaches could have no contact with the players during the lockout. Further, if I remember correctly, the lockout ended for a day when AJ Green was drafted but was back in place when Dalton was drafted so technically Dalton should not have received a playbook until the lockout ended during the summer whereas Green could have been given one on his draftday

As a Bengal fan, I hope that story doesn't grow legs and become a distraction

Danny Serafini
11-03-2011, 11:26 AM
Further, if I remember correctly, the lockout ended for a day when AJ Green was drafted but was back in place when Dalton was drafted so technically Dalton should not have received a playbook until the lockout ended during the summer whereas Green could have been given one on his draftday

All Dalton needed was for one of his teammates to photocopy their playbook and send it to him, not a big deal. That happened quite a bit.

bucksfan2
11-03-2011, 11:36 AM
All Dalton needed was for one of his teammates to photocopy their playbook and send it to him, not a big deal. That happened quite a bit.

I wonder if the Bengals wouldn't have given AJ 7 playbooks (or however many draft picks they had) and said get them to your new teammates drafted in the next few days.

texasdave
11-03-2011, 01:40 PM
Cincinnati Bengals quarterback Andy Dalton has been named the NFL’s Offensive Rookie of the Month, according to a tweet from the team’s official account.
Dalton, a second round pick by the Bengals in the 2011 NFL draft, helped lead the team to a 4-0 record in the month of October. The former TCU standout threw for six touchdowns and five interceptions in the month, and totaled 909 passing yards.

reds1869
11-03-2011, 04:48 PM
The following stood out form texasdave's post: the Bengals were 4-0 in the month of October. Think about how bad most of us thought this team would be then let that sink in for a minute.

Redsfaithful
11-03-2011, 05:02 PM
October used to be a brutal month every year. Even in the 90's when the Bengals were mediocre instead of out and out awful they'd always start out slow and have terrible Octobers.

CTA513
11-04-2011, 02:06 AM
I saw this posted by Old on go-bengals.com:



28 minutes ago - by Paul Dehner Jr. - DE Dunlap shining despite single sack
Anyone looking at the one sack of DE Carlos Dunlap and questioning his effectiveness during his sophomore season needs only to view the teamís QB pressures chart. Dunlap leads all players with 19. The next closest is DE Michael Johnson with six.


3 minutes ago - by Paul Dehner Jr. - Site ranks Dunlap top 4-3 DE in NFL this year
DE Carlos Dunlap rates as the top 4-3 defensive end this season, according to the scouts at ProFootballFocus.com. His rating of 27.3 is 5.6 points higher than Minnesotaís Jared Allen (21.7), ranked second. Dunlap averages one QB pressure every five snaps. In the prime years of Indianapolis' Dwight Freeney, he averaged one every six, according to the site


He doesn't have the sacks to show it, but Dunlap is getting pressure which is what the defense has lacked for years.

Redhook
11-04-2011, 07:38 AM
I saw this posted by Old on go-bengals.com:




He doesn't have the sacks to show it, but Dunlap is getting pressure which is what the defense has lacked for years.

Very cool. Thanks for posting that.

Hoosier Red
11-04-2011, 09:41 AM
I saw this posted by Old on go-bengals.com:


He doesn't have the sacks to show it, but Dunlap is getting pressure which is what the defense has lacked for years.

I agree with Redhook, thanks for posting that. What I think has been especially effective about the pass rush is that guys like Dunlap and Johnson, just by getting pressure really disrupt a passing game because they are so tall. In the same way that an effective shot blocker can "bother" a guy in the lane, it's clear that the Bengals front four bothers a lot of quarterbacks.

The only small negative in this is that QB's like Rothelisberger and Flacco are both very tall and less likely to be bothered. You still have to get them to the ground, which the Bengals have done an okay job with.

Slyder
11-05-2011, 11:33 AM
I'm disappointed Mike Brown cut Laverneous Coles before his contract was up.



Should New England have honored its contract with Robert Edwards even though he blew his knee out and might never play again? I mean it was agreed to at one point by representatives of both parties just like Carson's was. Don't give me this "honor your contract you bum" the owners cut ties and make people renegotiate contracts all the time. Its why they are called non-guaranteed.

Redhook
11-05-2011, 06:43 PM
Should New England have honored its contract with Robert Edwards even though he blew his knee out and might never play again? I mean it was agreed to at one point by representatives of both parties just like Carson's was. Don't give me this "honor your contract you bum" the owners cut ties and make people renegotiate contracts all the time. Its why they are called non-guaranteed.

I thought Gack's comment was hilarious when I first read it. I took it as sarcasm and I'm sure it was meant that way.

Slyder
11-05-2011, 07:24 PM
I thought Gack's comment was hilarious when I first read it. I took it as sarcasm and I'm sure it was meant that way.

I was paraphrasing a bunch of people on this thread saying that Carson should have played through it.

Mario-Rijo
11-05-2011, 08:38 PM
I agree with Redhook, thanks for posting that. What I think has been especially effective about the pass rush is that guys like Dunlap and Johnson, just by getting pressure really disrupt a passing game because they are so tall. In the same way that an effective shot blocker can "bother" a guy in the lane, it's clear that the Bengals front four bothers a lot of quarterbacks.

The only small negative in this is that QB's like Rothelisberger and Flacco are both very tall and less likely to be bothered. You still have to get them to the ground, which the Bengals have done an okay job with.

I think that is still likely to occur with Flacco he has some other issues that prevent him from being quick at decision making. However Roethlisberger seems to have finally turned a corner with regards to holding the ball which he has been notorious for. He is hitting alot of short passes this year (since sometime after that Baltimore debacle), using Heath Miller and others underneath more instead of constantly trying to make a big play downfield, bad news for Bengals. I actually predicted taking one from Pittsburgh before the season and being swept by Baltimore. However I am starting to wonder if I didn't speak to soon and the reverse has a better chance of happening now. Flacco has some good weapons at his disposal but he isn't using them very well.

Ohayou
11-06-2011, 06:00 PM
Dalton not getting any help today...

KoryMac5
11-06-2011, 06:16 PM
Love this QB Dalton nothing rattles the kid, which will be good because Pitts and Baltimore will try and shake your bones.

dougdirt
11-06-2011, 06:27 PM
I am starting to change my tune on Dalton a little bit. He has a touch more arm strength than I gave him credit for.

Slyder
11-06-2011, 06:31 PM
Love this QB Dalton nothing rattles the kid, which will be good because Pitts and Baltimore will try and shake your bones.

I was hoping Oakland would take a shot at him. I really liked him at TCU, I thought he had the head to be an NFL QB.

CTA513
11-06-2011, 07:30 PM
6-2 after todays win

WMR
11-06-2011, 07:35 PM
I thought they were going to lose today after the first half... this team is incredibly resilient.

WMR
11-06-2011, 07:39 PM
And A.J. Green is going to be a Pro Bowl-level receiver for many seasons to come... He's capable of simply dominating an opposing secondary.

traderumor
11-06-2011, 07:49 PM
Ok, I think this a good team. They have put together quite a season. And while there is the "schedule" discussion, they have done with 5 roadies, three home games. That flips for second half.

And again, finishing strong, such a dramatic reversal for the franchise.

Todd Gack
11-06-2011, 07:57 PM
Ok, I think this a good team. They have put together quite a season. And while there is the "schedule" discussion, they have done with 5 roadies, three home games. That flips for second half.

And again, finishing strong, such a dramatic reversal for the franchise.

The schedule isn't what the haters like me will focus on. The opposing QB's this team has faced is atrocious. The Bengals face Roethlisberger twice this year and then Matt Schaub. Everyone else is whom I'd consider average to below average at best.

Stray
11-06-2011, 08:01 PM
I know there's still a game tonight, but who really cares. At this very moment the Bengals are the #1 seed in the AFC.

Who dey?

TeamSelig
11-06-2011, 09:04 PM
Wow, I remember being disappointed in the draft picks of Dalton and Green.

Matt700wlw
11-06-2011, 10:55 PM
There is only one rookie QB who has thrown 12 TDs in his first 8 games since the NFL merger in 1970.

He wears #14 for the Bengals.

cincrazy
11-06-2011, 11:01 PM
The schedule isn't what the haters like me will focus on. The opposing QB's this team has faced is atrocious. The Bengals face Roethlisberger twice this year and then Matt Schaub. Everyone else is whom I'd consider average to below average at best.

The Bengals get to the QB as well as anyone in this league. Pitt's offensive line is atrocious, and you can rest assured the Bengals will rough up Big Ben. Maybe Pitt pulls out the W, but this team deserves respect, tough schedule or weak schedule, elite QBs faced or not elite.

The Operator
11-06-2011, 11:42 PM
6-2 at the halfway mark and the luxury of two first rounders this coming draft.

I wish I had a time machine to go back to about July and lay some heavy money down in Vegas. I'd be about as rich as that Cardinals fan.

HeatherC1212
11-07-2011, 12:09 AM
I love this team. :D

dougdirt
11-07-2011, 02:17 AM
The schedule isn't what the haters like me will focus on. The opposing QB's this team has faced is atrocious. The Bengals face Roethlisberger twice this year and then Matt Schaub. Everyone else is whom I'd consider average to below average at best.

This is the NFL. John Skelton won today. Tim Tebow won today. Matt Moore won today. Mark Sanchez won today. Are any of those guys good quarterbacks?

The Bengals played Alex Smith earlier this year. He currently ranks 6th in the NFL in QB rating. He didn't throw a touchdown in the game and had his second lowest rated game of the season.

Now I think they are going to face some better QB's moving forward than they have going back, but Alex Smith and Ryan Fitzpatrick are both rated in the Top 10 in the NFL in QB rating and they threw a combined 0 touchdowns in 2 games against the Bengals. So maybe it isn't just the quarterbacks they have faced and maybe its the defense that is pretty good?

GAC
11-07-2011, 04:42 AM
Why does it take a Browns fan to tell some of you Bengal fans (which I did earlier in the season) that you guys have a good team, and that they will do much better then expected? :mooner:

I turned my Browns off at halftime. I didn't really have high hopes for them this year anyway - just wanted to see some progress - but they've been nailed with some very key injuries. Especially to the O-line. And I've read reports that the Browns are tired of Hillis' antics and will allow him to walk at season's end. Good.

Now back to the Bengals.... I think you guys can win the division. I'm serious. I think you can beat Pitt next week. Your team is fun to watch (and I've been watching them). I loved that catch by Green in the 4th where the two Titan defenders collided with each other trying to break it up, and both ended up laid out on the ground. Priceless! LOL

Todd Gack
11-07-2011, 05:08 AM
This is the NFL. John Skelton won today. Tim Tebow won today. Matt Moore won today. Mark Sanchez won today. Are any of those guys good quarterbacks?



That just tells you how watered down the league has become.

medford
11-07-2011, 08:39 AM
I am starting to change my tune on Dalton a little bit. He has a touch more arm strength than I gave him credit for.

This. Its been easy to fall in love with his headiness (is that even a word?), willingness to stay in the pocket till the last second, ability to scramble and extend plays, etc... but he had 2-3 absolute riles in yesterday's game that were Farvesque. As each week goes by, this kid looks more and more special

gonelong
11-07-2011, 08:44 AM
I don't think I've ever been so wrong about a team that I follow.

This team is a pretty good team and they are fun to watch.

GL

bucksfan2
11-07-2011, 08:44 AM
Couple of thoughts from yesterday's game

-Dalton is better than expected and getting better.

-AJ Green is better than expected and getting better. It seems as if Dalton has been instructed to get the ball to AJ if he sees single coverage. There were two balls picked off last week that AJ didn't do a good enough job of defending. In today's game he worked a pass interference on a great play, went and picked a ball thrown into double coverage. There was also that quick slant that was supposed to be a run play that netted about 5-6 yards.

- Jay Gruden is looking to be a great hire. Its great to see halftime adjustments made in Cincinnati. There have been very few games (San Fran) in which the team didn't come out better in the second half.

- This D-Line is fun to watch. They get strong and stronger as the game goes along. You always get the feeling that if the Bengals get the lead late they line will be turned loose. It sure is fun to see Carlos Dunlap fresh going against a tired OLine.

- The penalties are getting a little old as are the early half time outs. But other than that I have little cause for being upset.

Roy Tucker
11-07-2011, 09:05 AM
It will be interesting is the home fans turn out for the upcoming home games. I know the Steeler game is a sellout, but that has a lot to do with all the Steeler fans coming.

I keep waiting for Dalton to make rookie mistakes, but he has made very few of them. He seems about as NFL-ready as I've ever seen for a rookie QB. Particularly when you consider the lack of training camp time.

And the 8-deep defensive line is about as relentless as they come.

Sea Ray
11-07-2011, 09:42 AM
It's hard to fully appreciate what Carlos Dunlap does for this team. He's the closer of the NFL. He greatly inhibits teams from coming back in the last two minutes. Just look at yesterday and see how many late comebacks occured, NY Giants, Ravens...In the NFL with prevent defenses, rules in place to favor the offense and using 4 downs, it is commonplace for even mediocre QBs like Flacco to take their teams to scores. But a guy like Dunlap at the very least forces the QB to throw quickly all the while his defense is in a prevent. That it huge in the NFL and is why pass rushing DEs are in such demand

redsfan30
11-07-2011, 10:52 AM
Any chance the game this week against Pittsburgh gets moved to the 4:00 time slot? This has suddenly become maybe the game of the week and I'm sure CBS has to at least think about making it a national game.

I don't believe the flex scheduling for the Sunday night game begins for a couple more weeks so it's probably out of the question.

The Operator
11-07-2011, 10:59 AM
Just look at yesterday and see how many late comebacks occured, NY Giants, Ravens...In the NFL with prevent defenses, rules in place to favor the offense and using 4 downs, it is commonplace for even mediocre QBs like Flacco to take their teams to scores.
I've never understood why so many teams go into a prevent defense toward the end of a game, even with a small lead. Maybe it's just me, but it seems like 99% of the time that while it may avoid a huge play - the other team ends up picking up huge chunks of yardage, milking the clock and scoring.

If an aggressive defense gave you a lead late in a game, I say stick with what got you there.

bucksfan2
11-07-2011, 11:18 AM
I've never understood why so many teams go into a prevent defense toward the end of a game, even with a small lead. Maybe it's just me, but it seems like 99% of the time that while it may avoid a huge play - the other team ends up picking up huge chunks of yardage, milking the clock and scoring.

If an aggressive defense gave you a lead late in a game, I say stick with what got you there.

Actually the Bengals went into a prevent D. They went into a cover 2 allowing short throws over the middle to be completed while they guarded the sideline. The difference was the DLine was fresh and reeking havoc with rushing just 4.

HotCorner
11-07-2011, 11:21 AM
Any chance the game this week against Pittsburgh gets moved to the 4:00 time slot? This has suddenly become maybe the game of the week and I'm sure CBS has to at least think about making it a national game.

I don't believe the flex scheduling for the Sunday night game begins for a couple more weeks so it's probably out of the question.

No the Bengals-Steelers game will be at 1pm. CBS does not have a doubleheader next week so moving it to 4pm is not possible. Also flex scheduling has started but the Patriots-Jets game is next Sunday night so no bumping that game. The following week's Bengals-Ravens game will probably be moved to a 4:15 start since that is a CBS doubleheader week.

Sea Ray
11-07-2011, 11:32 AM
Actually the Bengals went into a prevent D. They went into a cover 2 allowing short throws over the middle to be completed while they guarded the sideline. The difference was the DLine was fresh and reeking havoc with rushing just 4.

Exactly. I hate the prevent too but it does work if you can get pressure with your front 4

medford
11-07-2011, 11:55 AM
Using the prevent is just playing the odds. Keep everyone in front of you and let the clock be your friend. The Steelers went to a lot of heavy blitzes on Baltimore's final possession last night, they got burnt on a couple of passes to the deep corner, 1 for the TD, one that should have been caught several plays earlier. The knife cuts both ways, if you bring pressure, you better get the QB or you're just leaving your secondary exposed. Of course it works infinently better when you can get pressure from your front 4, which the rotation and combination of Johnson and Dunlap has worked great for the Bengals so far.

Mario-Rijo
11-07-2011, 12:51 PM
Wow, I remember being disappointed in the draft picks of Dalton and Green.

I wasn't disappointed perse' but perhaps a shade underwhelmed. I really wanted Marcell Dareus and wanted us to make a move to get him so that disappointed me. Turns out everyone was right....so far. Dareus has been an immense help for Buffalo, has helped shave like 10 PPG off the Bills defense of last year. Green and Dalton have been good also but I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop. I need to see continued improvement by Green, and Daltons arm needs to convince me it will be good enough. I think Green will get there and I hope Daltons arm is enough even when the conditions aren't ideal. But clearly not matter what happens from here on out the Bengals certainly could have done much worse on both counts.

Mario-Rijo
11-07-2011, 12:54 PM
The Bengals get to the QB as well as anyone in this league. Pitt's offensive line is atrocious, and you can rest assured the Bengals will rough up Big Ben. Maybe Pitt pulls out the W, but this team deserves respect, tough schedule or weak schedule, elite QBs faced or not elite.

Well said on all counts. Especially the last part they have won games and in the NFL no win is to be taken for granted just ask K.C. this week or New Orleans last.

dougdirt
11-07-2011, 12:55 PM
That just tells you how watered down the league has become.

Please. The pool of players is the largest ever. Athletes are bigger, faster, stronger and while maybe not smarter, certainly play smarter because of the technology that they have to help them play smarter. I am so tired of hearing that today's sports are watered down. They aren't. Teams today would obliterate teams from 10 years ago, much less 20+, in all sports.

reds1869
11-07-2011, 01:28 PM
Please. The pool of players is the largest ever. Athletes are bigger, faster, stronger and while maybe not smarter, certainly play smarter because of the technology that they have to help them play smarter. I am so tired of hearing that today's sports are watered down. They aren't. Teams today would obliterate teams from 10 years ago, much less 20+, in all sports.

+1.

Stray
11-07-2011, 01:35 PM
We gotta keep Wallace in front of us on Sunday. The Pitt running game isn't what it usually is so I'm confident we can stop it. Let our D-Line wear em down and tee off in the 2nd half like usual.

I think we're gonna win on Sunday. Dalton just needs to play smart and stay away from Polamalu.

RedsBaron
11-07-2011, 03:23 PM
Teams today would obliterate teams from 10 years ago, much less 20+, in all sports.

While I agree that athletes today are generally bigger and faster, that is a bit of an overstatment. If the increase in the quality of play was as great as you claim, with the athletes of today being to "obliterate" those who played a mere 10 years ago, then Ray Lewis wouldn't be on his way to yet another Pro Bowl, 14 years after his first Pro Bowl, Brett Favre would not have been a Pro Bowl player as far back as 1992 and as recently as 2009, and Tom Brady would not still be one of the top 3 or 4 QBs in the NFL, a full decade after his first Pro Bowl season.
Do you really think the 2011 Cardinals would obliterate the 1998 Yankees, or the 1975 Reds for that matter? Do you really think that Michael Jordan, in his prime, would be obliterated by today's NBA players?

Hoosier Red
11-07-2011, 03:35 PM
I think you're taking the exceptions rather than the rules.

Brett Favre and Ray Lewis are exceptional athletes. The fact that they played as long as they did in a sport where the average career is somewhere around 3 years shows how exceptional they are.

I don't know if anyone would beat Michael Jordan, but I'd venture a guess that the 2011 Bulls would run everyone not named Jordan or Pippen off the court.

The reason people don't see the vast improvement in athletes is because they don't focus on the fact that the 99% of players that make up the core of the game are light years better than they were 15-20-30 years later.

The 1975 Reds were the exception to the rest of the league, but remember that they had guys like Merv Rettenmund, Bill Plummer, and Darrel Chaney getting about 200 AB's per season and all batting at or under the mendoza line.

Think of what a competitive advantage it was for the BRM to have guys like Concepcion and Morgan who could play gold glove defense at SS and 2b and could also hit a little. The Pirates starting SS was a guy who had a .541 OPS, and they would take him out to put a better defender in.

medford
11-07-2011, 04:15 PM
I think we're gonna win on Sunday. Dalton just needs to play smart and stay away from Polamalu.

This is what I'm most interested in. At some point Polamalu is going to come off the edge, unaccounted for, and Andy is going to have to not only pick it up, but hit his hot read. Joe Flacco did it perfectly twice on the final drive last night, can Dalton do likewise? Pittsburgh is going to try their best to confuse the heck out of Dalton, how will a rookie QB and Jay Gruden adjust? I've been immensly impressed with both this season, look forward to seeng how they adjust to blitzburg.

My other key question is what will the mental state of Pittsburgh be like? They're coming off games vs New England and Baltimore, emotionally, they have to be spent, will they be able to get up again for the Bengals? You'd think coming off the lose, they would, but perhaps sufferring a 2nd loss to Baltimore gets them out of sorts as they're hopes for the division took a big blow last night. Conversly, what state of mind will the Bengals be in? Surely they'll be fired up, want to prove themselves to the skeptics that point to the schedule. Will they play within themselves, or will they try to do "too much" and leave themselves out of position and undisciplined?

Finally, how does Pittsburgh come out of last night's game health wise? Typically that's a pretty bruising game, will they be worn down physically? Will Hines Ward be able to suit up?

It almost feels like this whole season comes down to the next 4 games. I was amongst the many who thought at the begining of the season, this 4 game stretch was nothing more than a chance to beat the browns at home. All of a sudden its so much more. Going from where I was just hoping to see progress in the recent draft picks to where I find the Bengals now is amazing. Simply splitting the next 4, combined w/ the schedule of the last 4 probably puts them in the drivers seat for a playoff spot. Anything better than 2-2 and we can start thinking about a division championship and a bye.

dougdirt
11-07-2011, 04:24 PM
While I agree that athletes today are generally bigger and faster, that is a bit of an overstatment. If the increase in the quality of play was as great as you claim, with the athletes of today being to "obliterate" those who played a mere 10 years ago, then Ray Lewis wouldn't be on his way to yet another Pro Bowl, 14 years after his first Pro Bowl, Brett Favre would not have been a Pro Bowl player as far back as 1992 and as recently as 2009, and Tom Brady would not still be one of the top 3 or 4 QBs in the NFL, a full decade after his first Pro Bowl season.
Do you really think the 2011 Cardinals would obliterate the 1998 Yankees, or the 1975 Reds for that matter? Do you really think that Michael Jordan, in his prime, would be obliterated by today's NBA players?

I bet you that Ray Lewis in 2007 was better than Ray Lewis in 1999, in terms of what he was capable of, if we could take Ray Lewis and everything he has access to, and place him back in 1999. The simple technological advances he would have to study film gives him a huge advantage. You can watch so much more film today than ever before because of the technology we have. You don't have to be at the stadium to do it. You can do it anywhere with your iPad. You can instantly watch every pass/run from any player in the league. You don't have to fastforward tape/DVD's.

The guys you are talking about have all had access to better training/technology as they have gotten older. That has meant they have been able to take advantage of these things.

And yes, I absolutely believe that the 2011 Cardinals would CRUSH the 1975 Reds. The scouting reports alone would give them an incredible advantage, let alone the quality of the pitchers and hitters. Toss in that the hitters could watch endless video of the pitchers.... it wouldn't even be fair.

As for basketball.... Jordan may not be dominated by todays guys, but his teammates would. Much less the 80's era Bulls. Guys are simply faster and stronger now than they were then. Todays teams would run all over those types of teams. They would jump over them too.

Reds Freak
11-07-2011, 05:20 PM
It almost feels like this whole season comes down to the next 4 games. I was amongst the many who thought at the begining of the season, this 4 game stretch was nothing more than a chance to beat the browns at home. All of a sudden its so much more. Going from where I was just hoping to see progress in the recent draft picks to where I find the Bengals now is amazing. Simply splitting the next 4, combined w/ the schedule of the last 4 probably puts them in the drivers seat for a playoff spot. Anything better than 2-2 and we can start thinking about a division championship and a bye.

I agree. They have to get the Cleveland game and one of the three against Pittsburgh & Baltimore. That puts them at 8-4 with games remaining against Houston, @St. Louis, Arizona, Baltimore. Go 2-2 in that stretch of four and you're looking at a 10-6 record. Does 10-6 get them in?

redsfandan
11-07-2011, 05:50 PM
There is only one rookie QB who has thrown 12 TDs in his first 8 games since the NFL merger in 1970.

He wears #14 for the Bengals.

Your wording is a little off. Dalton has thrown for 12 touchdowns this year, the most by a rookie in his team's first eight games of the season since the merger in 1970.

Marino is one guy that had more tds (15) in his first 8 games. (He didn't play in the first two games.) It's still really impressive what Dalton has done considering we're half way through the season and he's had all of the snaps.

edit: That wasn't meant as a knock on Dalton. I doubt Dalton will be quite as prolific a td producer as Marino. On the other hand, not only wasn't Dalton on the sidelines at the start of the season, but he also didn't have the benefit of a normal NFL training camp. Makes me wonder how many teams are kicking themselves for letting him slide to the Bengals in the 2nd round.

RedsBaron
11-07-2011, 07:31 PM
In "The Politics of Glory," published in 1994, Bill James, while stating that he believed that the quality of play was "a little" better, took note of an article in the May 1992 edition of "Playboy" which argued that the 1954 Indians, who went 111-43, would be slaughtered if they played the 1991 Indians, who went 57-105: "That's nonsense; that's the ramblings of a young man intoxicated by new-found voice, and essent;. ially ignorant of history. One can demonstrate that it is nonsense, because if history's inclinehat steep, then the best players in the game in 1954 would have been pushed to near medicocrity was tby the mid-sixties. This did not happen."
If the NFL players of 2001 would be "obliterated" by the players of 2011, no matter how exceptional a player Ray Lewis is, a decade older Lewis would not still be a Pro Bowl player. If MLB players from a decade ago would be "obliterated" by today's players, we wouldn't be seeing any players having two decade+ careers.

dougdirt
11-07-2011, 07:49 PM
If the NFL players of 2001 would be "obliterated" by the players of 2011, no matter how exceptional a player Ray Lewis is, a decade older Lewis would not still be a Pro Bowl player. If MLB players from a decade ago would be "obliterated" by today's players, we wouldn't be seeing any players having two decade+ careers.

Why wouldn't we? Did those players not get the advantages of the technology and training?

Here is what I am saying.....

Take Ray Lewis in 1999 and progress his career forward, but he has to use the exact same technology for the rest of his career moving forward as he had available in 1999 and the exact same training principles that he had available in 1999, including supplements and compare it to moving that exact same player who was able to use new technology and supplements and training.... who is going to be better?

Of course it is going to be the guy who has the better technology, supplements and training. That is why guys today would be better than guys 10 years ago, 20 years ago and 30 years ago. They have athletic advantages that make them bigger, faster, stronger and quicker in reaction. They have technological advantages that also prepare them better, by infinite amounts if you are able to go back 15-20 years or longer. That makes them all play smarter and quicker.

When you put those things together, it is just going to make better players. I really can't figure out where the other side of the argument is. Guys today are better. Part of it is genetics, because as humans we are generally just getting bigger, but a lot of it is the technology we have. Between what we know now with training, guys are just better athletes than ever before. It isn't to say the guys in the past wouldn't be if they had the same advantages, but they didn't have the same advantages.

RiverRat13
11-08-2011, 08:38 AM
I agree. They have to get the Cleveland game and one of the three against Pittsburgh & Baltimore. That puts them at 8-4 with games remaining against Houston, @St. Louis, Arizona, Baltimore. Go 2-2 in that stretch of four and you're looking at a 10-6 record. Does 10-6 get them in?

It probably depends which teams they beat to get to 10-6. Right now it looks like NE, NYJ, Buffalo, CIN, PITT and Baltimore are the six teams vying for four spots (AFC East/North titles and the two wild cards). Looking at Buffalo's schedule, 10-6 to me looks like its best case scenario. The Bengals would obviously have the head-to-head tiebreaker. I have the Jets at 10-6, which would then come down to tiebreakers. While the Jets are 1 1/2 games behind the Bengals in conference record, I think there's a pretty good chance they'd actually finish with a better conference record than the Bengals. I have Pittsburgh at no worse than 11-5 even if they just split with the Bengals. I think if the Ravens sweep the Bengals, they go 13-3.

I still think the best scenario for the Bengals to get in is for Baltimore to runaway with the division (which they may well do), and the Bengals come into Week 17 at 10-5 with a game that Baltimore rests its starters.

traderumor
11-08-2011, 03:06 PM
Why wouldn't we? Did those players not get the advantages of the technology and training?

Here is what I am saying.....

Take Ray Lewis in 1999 and progress his career forward, but he has to use the exact same technology for the rest of his career moving forward as he had available in 1999 and the exact same training principles that he had available in 1999, including supplements and compare it to moving that exact same player who was able to use new technology and supplements and training.... who is going to be better?

Of course it is going to be the guy who has the better technology, supplements and training. That is why guys today would be better than guys 10 years ago, 20 years ago and 30 years ago. They have athletic advantages that make them bigger, faster, stronger and quicker in reaction. They have technological advantages that also prepare them better, by infinite amounts if you are able to go back 15-20 years or longer. That makes them all play smarter and quicker.

When you put those things together, it is just going to make better players. I really can't figure out where the other side of the argument is. Guys today are better. Part of it is genetics, because as humans we are generally just getting bigger, but a lot of it is the technology we have. Between what we know now with training, guys are just better athletes than ever before. It isn't to say the guys in the past wouldn't be if they had the same advantages, but they didn't have the same advantages.I hear what you're saying, but I think it is always implied in discussions such as this that the best players or teams were "state of the art." I'm not sure the comparisons are ever apples to apples in sports because of the ever changing "state of the art." There are vast differences in any of the major professional sports within a decade, let alone comparing eras that are decades apart. Lining up the 60s Cleveland Browns and the 2010 Carolina Panthers and saying that the Panthers would probably win easily is like saying Edison's discovery of the light bulb pales in comparison to the development of the computer chip.

dougdirt
11-08-2011, 04:33 PM
I hear what you're saying, but I think it is always implied in discussions such as this that the best players or teams were "state of the art." I'm not sure the comparisons are ever apples to apples in sports because of the ever changing "state of the art." There are vast differences in any of the major professional sports within a decade, let alone comparing eras that are decades apart. Lining up the 60s Cleveland Browns and the 2010 Carolina Panthers and saying that the Panthers would probably win easily is like saying Edison's discovery of the light bulb pales in comparison to the development of the computer chip.

Yet when I said that, I was questioned as if what I said weren't true.

I never said anything to the effect that we are better today vs our competition than they were against theirs. I said that the guys in todays games would obliterate guys from the past and its mostly because of the technology we have that makes us bigger, stronger, faster, quicker and at least play smarter if not actually being smarter.

Sea Ray
11-08-2011, 05:17 PM
Yet when I said that, I was questioned as if what I said weren't true.

I never said anything to the effect that we are better today vs our competition than they were against theirs. I said that the guys in todays games would obliterate guys from the past and its mostly because of the technology we have that makes us bigger, stronger, faster, quicker and at least play smarter if not actually being smarter.

By today's standards Jim Brown would not stand out as a big and fast RB

dougdirt
11-08-2011, 05:31 PM
By today's standards Jim Brown would not stand out as a big and fast RB

I know this. Jim Brown was bigger than some lineman when he was playing.

But that was part of my point. Guys today are just incredibly better and I am tired of hearing how watered down our sports are compared to "yesteryear". They aren't. Not even close. The pool of talent is incredibly larger by sheer population numbers and the athletes are incredibly better.

Mario-Rijo
11-08-2011, 05:50 PM
I know this. Jim Brown was bigger than some lineman when he was playing.

But that was part of my point. Guys today are just incredibly better and I am tired of hearing how watered down our sports are compared to "yesteryear". They aren't. Not even close. The pool of talent is incredibly larger by sheer population numbers and the athletes are incredibly better.

They are no doubt more talented but if you put todays team back in those days I'm guessing they wouldn't be as dominant as you think. Toughness and rule differences the older teams always have.

IslandRed
11-08-2011, 05:53 PM
I think that since World War II, there have been two huge leaps in quality of play in various sports. One, obviously, was integration. The second was the relatively short period of time where weight training and (non-PED) supplements etc. meshed with players having enough money to spend the offseason working out instead of working a second job, overlapping with computers and video becoming commonplace. Outside those periods, the field-of-play gains have tended to be smaller and incremental.

I also think that stars would still be stars in the era that follows them. What changed most over time is the makeup of the average player.

Sea Ray
11-08-2011, 05:59 PM
I know this. Jim Brown was bigger than some lineman when he was playing.

But that was part of my point. Guys today are just incredibly better and I am tired of hearing how watered down our sports are compared to "yesteryear". They aren't. Not even close. The pool of talent is incredibly larger by sheer population numbers and the athletes are incredibly better.

Uhhh, I'm on your side Doug. My example supports what you were saying.

dougdirt
11-08-2011, 06:06 PM
They are no doubt more talented but if you put todays team back in those days I'm guessing they wouldn't be as dominant as you think. Toughness and rule differences the older teams always have.

Sure they would. All of the toughness in the world isn't going to make up for the large differences in talent/size. Toughness doesn't do you any good if you can't catch up to the guy or he is just physically dominating you because he is taller, bigger, stronger and faster than you are.

dougdirt
11-08-2011, 06:08 PM
I think that since World War II, there have been two huge leaps in quality of play in various sports. One, obviously, was integration. The second was the relatively short period of time where weight training and (non-PED) supplements etc. meshed with players having enough money to spend the offseason working out instead of working a second job, overlapping with computers and video becoming commonplace. Outside those periods, the field-of-play gains have tended to be smaller and incremental.

I also think that stars would still be stars in the era that follows them. What changed most over time is the makeup of the average player.

Agreed here. Guys today wouldn't be any better if they were transported through time as children and were brought up in those times, just like guys back then wouldn't be any different if they were transported forward through time as children and got to grow up with the same advantages we have today. The differences, as you noted, are mostly because of the times we live in that provides athletes a much better situation to improve their skillset compared to those that came before them.

Mario-Rijo
11-08-2011, 06:25 PM
Sure they would. All of the toughness in the world isn't going to make up for the large differences in talent/size. Toughness doesn't do you any good if you can't catch up to the guy or he is just physically dominating you because he is taller, bigger, stronger and faster than you are.

He can't physically dominate you if he can't see, can't walk, can't rationalize the win being worth the beating. These skilled players today would get smashed in a pile up back then. Yeah the teams are still way more talented but let's give those guys their due, they were a different kind of animal. Just as an example I have fought many guys more physically gifted than myself but they lacked heart usually and were easy to break mentally. Sometimes it really is about who wants it more and who is willing to slug it out (so to speak).

And you might just want to re-read my initial post I never said it made up for it all the way.

dougdirt
11-08-2011, 06:31 PM
He can't physically dominate you if he can't see, can't walk, can't rationalize the win being worth the beating. These skilled players today would get smashed in a pile up back then. Yeah the teams are still way more talented but let's give those guys their due, they were a different kind of animal. Just as an example I have fought many guys more physically gifted than myself but they lacked heart usually and were easy to break mentally. Sometimes it really is about who wants it more and who is willing to slug it out (so to speak).

And you might just want to re-read my initial post I never said it made up for it all the way.

There wouldn't be a pile up back then. The old day guys would be flat on their backs or chasing the back/reciever and losing ground with every step.

What you did against other guys means nothing in this context. We are talking about the absolute best athletes in the world here. Not just a non athlete versus a better non athlete.

Mario-Rijo
11-08-2011, 06:34 PM
There wouldn't be a pile up back then. The old day guys would be flat on their backs or chasing the back/reciever and losing ground with every step.

What you did against other guys means nothing in this context. We are talking about the absolute best athletes in the world here. Not just a non athlete versus a better non athlete.

Oh so now they won't even lay a finger on them? Come on Doug, sometimes you really take things too far.

dougdirt
11-08-2011, 06:40 PM
Oh so now they won't even lay a finger on them? Come on Doug, sometimes you really take things too far.

Lineman are much bigger/strong/faster than they ever have been. That equates to dominating at the line of scrimmage. Line backers are smaller than they are now and slower. Running backs are bigger and faster, as are wide recievers. So now we have smaller and slower guys trying to chase down and tackle faster, more agile and stronger guys with the ball.

I don't really think I am taking it too far. Of course they would lay a hand on them, but there wouldn't be pile ups all that often because pile ups happen when both sides are evenly matched and the line doesn't go anywhere. Put todays linemen against linemen of yesteryear and todays linemen will absolutely dominate the line of scrimmage on every down.

The Operator
11-08-2011, 07:31 PM
I hate to break up a good argument, but this is a Bengals thread, guys.

I think the "today vs. yesteryear" argument is fascinating and worth talking about, and if you want to continue it I'd be glad to move the related posts in this thread into a separate thread for you to continue discussing it, if you all would like that.

But for this thread, for the last three pages or so it's been only this topic with Bengals talk sprinkled in about every 5th or 6th post. So please try to keep it on topic.

WebScorpion
11-08-2011, 08:26 PM
We gotta keep Wallace in front of us on Sunday. The Pitt running game isn't what it usually is so I'm confident we can stop it. Let our D-Line wear em down and tee off in the 2nd half like usual.

I think we're gonna win on Sunday. Dalton just needs to play smart and stay away from Polamalu.
I think the Bengals will win too. Even the good Bengal teams that I remember (and there aren't many of those) didn't make halftime adjustments like this team. It's like having a great bullpen in baseball...as long as the offense keeps us in the game in the first half, our defense will shut them down and let us catch up in the end. :thumbup: I'm loving it!

Todd Gack
11-08-2011, 08:51 PM
Please. The pool of players is the largest ever. Athletes are bigger, faster, stronger and while maybe not smarter, certainly play smarter because of the technology that they have to help them play smarter. I am so tired of hearing that today's sports are watered down. They aren't. Teams today would obliterate teams from 10 years ago, much less 20+, in all sports.

Comparatively speaking, the late 80's, early 90's was a golden age of the NFL. Pick any of the losers in those conference championship games and they would run all over an of the Super Bowl teams of the past 10 years.

The quality of play and rules in this league has severely downgraded the quality of play and yet we all think this is awesome football. I'm just looking at all of these Super Bowl matchups of the past 10 years and I'm vomiting comparing it to those great teams of the 80's and early 90's before the salary cap completely ruined the greatness of the NFL.

But hey, enjoy your parity and seeing the referees and the salary cap decide more winners in today's game than ever before.

Todd Gack
11-08-2011, 08:57 PM
Lineman are much bigger/strong/faster than they ever have been. That equates to dominating at the line of scrimmage. Line backers are smaller than they are now and slower. Running backs are bigger and faster, as are wide recievers. So now we have smaller and slower guys trying to chase down and tackle faster, more agile and stronger guys with the ball.

I don't really think I am taking it too far. Of course they would lay a hand on them, but there wouldn't be pile ups all that often because pile ups happen when both sides are evenly matched and the line doesn't go anywhere. Put todays linemen against linemen of yesteryear and todays linemen will absolutely dominate the line of scrimmage on every down.

You're comparing the athlete alone instead of the quality of play altogether in the NFL. The game is crap today. Too many games decided by questionable penalties, injuries, and just plain horrid play. Give me the Cowboys and 49ers dynasties of 20 years ago over what you call an 'exciting' game today. Those games were much more fun to watch.

dougdirt
11-08-2011, 09:03 PM
You're comparing the athlete alone instead of the quality of play altogether in the NFL. The game is crap today. Too many games decided by questionable penalties, injuries, and just plain horrid play. Give me the Cowboys and 49ers dynasties of 20 years ago over what you call an 'exciting' game today. Those games were much more fun to watch.

I am not concerned about the way the game is played today so much versus then. The players are simply better because of the advantages they have. But lets leave it at that, like we were asked to last page, and get back to the Bengals of 2011/2012.

Ohayou
11-08-2011, 09:07 PM
6-2 and they can't even break the Top 10 in power rankings...

Boss-Hog
11-08-2011, 11:11 PM
I hate to break up a good argument, but this is a Bengals thread, guys.

I think the "today vs. yesteryear" argument is fascinating and worth talking about, and if you want to continue it I'd be glad to move the related posts in this thread into a separate thread for you to continue discussing it, if you all would like that.

But for this thread, for the last three pages or so it's been only this topic with Bengals talk sprinkled in about every 5th or 6th post. So please try to keep it on topic.
This, please.

bucksfan2
11-09-2011, 08:30 AM
Comparatively speaking, the late 80's, early 90's was a golden age of the NFL. Pick any of the losers in those conference championship games and they would run all over an of the Super Bowl teams of the past 10 years.

The quality of play and rules in this league has severely downgraded the quality of play and yet we all think this is awesome football. I'm just looking at all of these Super Bowl matchups of the past 10 years and I'm vomiting comparing it to those great teams of the 80's and early 90's before the salary cap completely ruined the greatness of the NFL.

But hey, enjoy your parity and seeing the referees and the salary cap decide more winners in today's game than ever before.

Are you sure you aren't talking about the Bengals glory days as well? Late 80's early 90's, maybe we can go back and freeze Paul Brown, or at least clone him.

The Super Bowls were utterly forgettable during the 90's and into the early 2000's. Remember the Niners vs the Chargers? Heck the Bengals Super Bowl loss was on of the best SB's of all time until recently. I will take a nail bitter SB with two lesser teams as you suggest, over a epic blowout.

redsfandan
11-09-2011, 08:55 AM
If the "today vs. yesteryear" argument keeps up much more someone's gonna have to rename the thread. :lol:

Ohayou
11-09-2011, 02:01 PM
Stephen A. Smith shows Dalton some love on First Take. :)

cincrazy
11-09-2011, 02:26 PM
I think this team has a better shot against Pitt than many are giving it.

People routinely point out that the Bengals haven't played anyone, while failing to point out that the Steelers and Ravens have played the same schedule, with only a few differences. Pittsburgh has only created four turnovers all over, has offensive line issues (which plays to our strength) and has numerous injury issues. This team has a very good shot to win this Sunday. And I think a win is very important. It would get this crucial stretch off on the right foot.

redsfan30
11-09-2011, 02:40 PM
If this team can take two of the four games with Baltimore and Pittsburgh, we will be playing football in Cincinnati in January.

bucksfan2
11-09-2011, 03:04 PM
I think this team has a better shot against Pitt than many are giving it.

People routinely point out that the Bengals haven't played anyone, while failing to point out that the Steelers and Ravens have played the same schedule, with only a few differences. Pittsburgh has only created four turnovers all over, has offensive line issues (which plays to our strength) and has numerous injury issues. This team has a very good shot to win this Sunday. And I think a win is very important. It would get this crucial stretch off on the right foot.

I just saw the final play of the Ravens Steelers game and still am shaking my head at the defensive call. With 16 or so seconds left and 30-35 yards to go needing a TD I have no idea why the Steelers went with press coverage bringing 5 men. Lay off the WR, force Flacco to go underneath the coverage and you win the game. As it was the DB got beat and Flacco made a good throw for a TD that never should have happened.

That said here are my thoughts for this upcoming game:

Its tough to get up for 3 games in a row. The Steelers had the Pats, Ravens, and now the Bengals. Had the Steelers beat the Ravens I would have liked the Bengals odds more.

The key for the Bengals will be to get Ben on the ground. The Steelers (Mike Wallace) are very good at the deep ball, the Bengals (Leon Hall) have a weakness there. If the D Line can get pressure on Ben and bring him to the ground it would greatly improve their chance at winning.

Andy Dalton can't make costly mistakes. He needs to continue to play like a seasoned QB and not a rookie.

The mistakes need to be limited. The OLine can't give up as many holding calls as they did in the last two weeks. Jerome Simpson needs to hang onto the ball. Gresham (if he plays) needs to catch the ball. Andre Caldwell needs to catch the ball.

If I were a betting man I would take the Steelers but I think the Bengals have a good shot at winning. However they will need to play their best football game of the year in order to do so.

5TimeWSChamps
11-09-2011, 05:16 PM
If tge D-Line gets to Ben, we will win. If we get no pressure we will lose. Simple as that

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

Yachtzee
11-10-2011, 12:24 PM
The Bengals of this season remind me of a line from the movie "Yellowbeard" starring Graham Chapman of Monty Python, "Yellowbeards are always most dangerous when they're dead." After losing Palmer and CJ, the Bengals were left for dead before the season started. To that I say, "Bengals are always most dangerous when they're dead."

GAC
11-11-2011, 05:21 AM
You guys wanna see anger and frustration? Check out this Brown's season ticket holder outside the stadium, You go guy! :thumbup:

A Browns Fan's Reaction To Today's Game Against Houston - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRBDMMVctu8&feature=youtu.be)

redsfandan
11-11-2011, 07:33 AM
You guys wanna see anger and frustration? Check out this Brown's season ticket holder outside the stadium, You go guy! :thumbup:

A Browns Fan's Reaction To Today's Game Against Houston - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRBDMMVctu8&feature=youtu.be)


"You are a factory of sadness!!"


That's pretty good. lol

Joseph
11-11-2011, 09:31 AM
Hilarious

Yachtzee
11-11-2011, 10:16 AM
I feel for Browns fans. For as much poor football as Mike Brown has inflicted upon Bengals fans over the years, at least we don't have to deal with an owner who seems to spend more time and money propping up a mediocre soccer team in the English Premier League. A former season ticket-holding friend of mine dumped his in favor of University of Akron season tickets because he felt Randy Lerner cared more about jet-setting in Europe than fielding a competitive NFL team. Ironically, U of A's soccer team is better than its football team as well.

SeeinRed
11-11-2011, 11:15 AM
You guys wanna see anger and frustration? Check out this Brown's season ticket holder outside the stadium, You go guy! :thumbup:

A Browns Fan's Reaction To Today's Game Against Houston - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRBDMMVctu8&feature=youtu.be)

Not to get off topic, but that is the guy who did the weekly web series Man in the Box. He is hillarious. Love that guy.

As for the Bengals, I really don't think you can discount the stretch Pittsburgh has been in and they still haven't had a bye. Cincinnati is catching them at the perfect time. I really like the physicality of the Bengals and deep defensive line. That will really wear on Pitt. I think the Bengals win this one.

medford
11-11-2011, 11:50 AM
I feel for Browns fans. For as much poor football as Mike Brown has inflicted upon Bengals fans over the years, at least we don't have to deal with an owner who seems to spend more time and money propping up a mediocre soccer team in the English Premier League. A former season ticket-holding friend of mine dumped his in favor of University of Akron season tickets because he felt Randy Lerner cared more about jet-setting in Europe than fielding a competitive NFL team. Ironically, U of A's soccer team is better than its football team as well.

I don't feel too sorry for Browns fans. 1st, how on God's green earth can a Bengals fan feel sorry for any other sports fan? Don't know if you're a Bengals fan or not, but as one, there's nowhere else to go but up in terms of franchise success over an extended period. Thankfully, it looks like that is happening as we speak, and despite some bumps in the road has been in transition over the last 5-8 years w/ the ability of hindsight.

2nd, I can't tell you how many Browns I've run across that act like its the 50s and the Browns are relavant in football on the national scene. I know my Bengals have sucked for a good portion of my life (34 years), but I certainly don't need Browns fan acting like they've had it sooooo good over the same time frame. Go to pretty much any other state and their both an afterthought, something I think many Browns fans fail to realize.

Yachtzee
11-11-2011, 12:39 PM
I don't feel too sorry for Browns fans. 1st, how on God's green earth can a Bengals fan feel sorry for any other sports fan? Don't know if you're a Bengals fan or not, but as one, there's nowhere else to go but up in terms of franchise success over an extended period. Thankfully, it looks like that is happening as we speak, and despite some bumps in the road has been in transition over the last 5-8 years w/ the ability of hindsight.

2nd, I can't tell you how many Browns I've run across that act like its the 50s and the Browns are relavant in football on the national scene. I know my Bengals have sucked for a good portion of my life (34 years), but I certainly don't need Browns fan acting like they've had it sooooo good over the same time frame. Go to pretty much any other state and their both an afterthought, something I think many Browns fans fail to realize.

I said "I feel for them" as in empathize, as opposed to feeling sorry for them, which would imply that I, as a Bengals fan have had somewhat of a better experience and would be patronizing. I empathize with them because I've lived in Northeast Ohio most of my life and know that a lot of them feel just as downtrodden and done wrong by Browns ownership as us Bengals fans feel about Mike Brown. They've had to deal with Art Modell and Randy Lerner, who while certainly not as thrifty as Mike Brown, have made just as many headscratching decisions in the same time period. In recent years, it seems like NE Ohio has just as many Steelers fans as Browns fans. And Browns fans don't nearly compare to Steelers fans around here when it comes to obnoxious entitlement. I live 20 miles southeast of Cleveland and can't tell you how many times I've heard people stick up for scum like Roethlisberger and James Harrison (Harrison is an alumnus from my alma mater, Kent State). Apparently, if you're a Steeler, you can be a scumbag of a human being, but still get treated as a god as long as you win football games. (FYI, although they're both from Ohio, most Steelers fans here who like Roethlisberger and Harrison never heard of them before they joined the Steelers and most people who knew them before they went pro can't stand them).

Of course, I've dealt with obnoxious Browns fans in the past too, but mostly in the '90s when the Bernie Kosar and Kardiac Kids eras were still fresh in their minds. But ever since the Browns v1.0 left and v2.0 was released, most of them I know have been pretty humble about the team.

medford
11-11-2011, 01:00 PM
yachtzee,

Perhaps the difference in our experience is the area we live in. Living in Northeast Ohio, I'd imagine the attitudes of Browns fans to Bengals fans is much different than down here in the Dayton/cincy area of the state. My father is akron, mother from Stow, none of my uncles/aunts/cousins seems to be the irrational type of Browns fans that I run into here in SW ohio.

I think part of it steems from the years of Bengals coverage, prior to satelitte feeds in every bar, or the NFL sunday ticket when the Bengals were truely horrid during the 90s and the Browns were "ok". The Bengals games would almost always run over top of the Browns game if shown at the same time. In the Dayton area anyways, it always brought angst in the news paper as Browns fans felt like they deserved to have their team on over the Bengals.

while there was probably some truth in that at the time, I think it festered amongst many of the browns fans that I know that continue to act like the Browns are the end all/be all of NFL teams and the Bengals can just go pound sand.

5TimeWSChamps
11-11-2011, 01:21 PM
Mike Polk also did the Hastily Made Cleveland Tourism Videos, which are awesome

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

Yachtzee
11-11-2011, 02:46 PM
Mike Polk also did the Hastily Made Cleveland Tourism Videos, which are awesome

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

Were I a season ticket holder in the Dog Pound, I would make a Factory of Sadness banner for the next game.

The other side would say Scooby Doo Ghost Town for the 4th qtr.

Redsfaithful
11-11-2011, 03:17 PM
What is weird to me is reading Browns forums before/after the first game of the year, it seemed like many Browns fans had the attitude that at least they aren't Bengals fans. Give the immediate history of the two teams it's hard to understand, given that the Bengals have won the division twice since 2005, and this Browns team has never won a division title period.

Both teams have been terrible, neither fanbase should really feel better than the other, but I do know I'd rather at least have '05 and '09 over anything the Browns have done lately.

dougdirt
11-11-2011, 04:53 PM
What is weird to me is reading Browns forums before/after the first game of the year, it seemed like many Browns fans had the attitude that at least they aren't Bengals fans. Give the immediate history of the two teams it's hard to understand, given that the Bengals have won the division twice since 2005, and this Browns team has never won a division title period.

Both teams have been terrible, neither fanbase should really feel better than the other, but I do know I'd rather at least have '05 and '09 over anything the Browns have done lately.

I feel better than they should. My team didn't leave town.

Redsfaithful
11-12-2011, 12:15 PM
I feel better than they should. My team didn't leave town.

Disagree, no fan should feel bad about having a terrible owner. Not like Mike Brown wouldn't have left if Hamilton County hadn't given him a ridiculous stadium deal.

dougdirt
11-12-2011, 03:01 PM
Disagree, no fan should feel bad about having a terrible owner. Not like Mike Brown wouldn't have left if Hamilton County hadn't given him a ridiculous stadium deal.

It certainly can kill fan morale. Sure, they got a team back eventually. Still, my crappy owner got what he wanted and stayed.

Yachtzee
11-13-2011, 12:10 PM
It certainly can kill fan morale. Sure, they got a team back eventually. Still, my crappy owner got what he wanted and stayed.

From what I heard, the NFL would have been happy to push Brown into moving the team to Cleveland. Brown felt obligated to give Cincinnati a shot to keep the team, which more than Modell gave Cleveland.

RiverRat13
11-13-2011, 12:57 PM
I'm hoping today Dalton assuages my only remaining doubt about his arm. If he is productive even with today's stiff wind, I'll quit worrying about his arm strength altogether.

Ohayou
11-13-2011, 12:57 PM
Dunlap inactive for today's game. :(

dougdirt
11-13-2011, 01:13 PM
So Roethlisberger just threw a touchdown..... beyond the line of scrimmage. No call. No challenge.

RiverRat13
11-13-2011, 01:14 PM
Either the CBS blue line is wildly inaccurate or he was beyond the line of scrimmage.

dougdirt
11-13-2011, 01:16 PM
Either the CBS blue line is wildly inaccurate or he was beyond the line of scrimmage.

It wasn't inaccurate. The line of scrimmage was the 16.5 yard line. He released that ball at the 15.

RiverRat13
11-13-2011, 01:24 PM
Terrible tackling.

dougdirt
11-13-2011, 01:28 PM
Well this is fun....

RiverRat13
11-13-2011, 01:38 PM
Even when things go well it's bad. Please by okay A.J.

dougdirt
11-13-2011, 01:41 PM
Even when things go well it's bad. Please by okay A.J.

Isn't that how the Bengals work?

RiverRat13
11-13-2011, 02:09 PM
Ugh. Dropped the INT on a terrible throw by Ben. Then Miller drags Howard for a 1st down.

The Operator
11-13-2011, 02:15 PM
They really need to get Leon Hall some help over on his side. He's getting picked apart.

The Operator
11-13-2011, 02:21 PM
And now apparently Hall is questionable to return with a left achilles injury. Not good.

traderumor
11-13-2011, 02:34 PM
Steelers land a flurry of punches to start the game, the Bengals don't let it turn into a knockout punch. Good, well-played first half, still anybody's ball game, D-line starting to dominate, gonna have to in the 2nd half cuz we sure can't cover anybody :laugh:

Brutus
11-13-2011, 02:42 PM
After the first two drives, the Bengals' defense played well sans those third-and-long conversions. Even on those, the coverage wasn't bad, the Steelers' receivers simply went up and made nice plays on the ball.

The Bengals need to start out the second half with a stop and go down and score if they want to win this game.

RiverRat13
11-13-2011, 02:51 PM
I miss Shipley.

RiverRat13
11-13-2011, 02:55 PM
It's amazing how Andy Dalton looks like an All-Pro after halftime each week.

Brutus
11-13-2011, 02:59 PM
It's amazing how Andy Dalton looks like an All-Pro after halftime each week.

He's definitely a guy that seems to get better as the game goes on.

5TimeWSChamps
11-13-2011, 03:05 PM
Even of we lose, I think we've acquitted ourselves well

Ohayou
11-13-2011, 03:14 PM
I miss Shipley.

Tell me about it. Outside of Green, those three tight ends have carried this offense.

RiverRat13
11-13-2011, 03:19 PM
Baby Hawk with two big catches in a row.

5TimeWSChamps
11-13-2011, 03:35 PM
Caldwell has been bad today

dougdirt
11-13-2011, 03:38 PM
Even of we lose, I think we've acquitted ourselves well

This is the NFL. Playing close doesn't change anyone's mind. The Colts played the Steelers close.

dougdirt
11-13-2011, 03:42 PM
Well that holding penalty that wasn't holding at all killed that drive. Awesome.

RiverRat13
11-13-2011, 03:43 PM
What a terrible call in a big spot.

Brutus
11-13-2011, 03:43 PM
Well that holding penalty that wasn't holding at all killed that drive. Awesome.

I can live with penalties that aren't called because refs simply didn't see them. But when penalties are called that aren't penalties, that's pretty frustrating. That, by the standards of pretty much any level of football, was an awfully suspect holding call.

dougdirt
11-13-2011, 03:53 PM
Don't have the magic today. Really missing AJ Green in the second half.

HeatherC1212
11-13-2011, 03:55 PM
Worst sports weekend ever for me. Every single team I follow loses either in a horrible way to a horrible opponent. ARGH. :bang:

RiverRat13
11-13-2011, 03:56 PM
Don't have the magic today. Really missing AJ Green in the second half.

To ask them to come back in the 2nd half without Dunlap, Hall and A.J. was probably too tall of a task for this group.

dougdirt
11-13-2011, 03:57 PM
To ask them to come back in the 2nd half without Dunlap, Hall and A.J. was probably too tall of a task for this group.

Probably too much to ask of any team. Tough to come back when three of your 4 best players are out.

will5979
11-13-2011, 04:01 PM
Worst sports weekend ever for me. Every single team I follow loses either in a horrible way to a horrible opponent. ARGH. :bang:

What college football team do you follow?

RiverRat13
11-13-2011, 04:08 PM
Worst sports weekend ever for me. Every single team I follow loses either in a horrible way to a horrible opponent. ARGH. :bang:

At least today was a good game. Yesterday's OSU/Purdue game was just bad football.

HeatherC1212
11-13-2011, 04:17 PM
What college football team do you follow?

Bearcats and Buckeyes for college football and my high school alma mater lost to one of their biggest rivals in the football playoffs last night too. Horrible weekend for me. :(

RiverRat13
11-13-2011, 04:19 PM
Reedy tweets that Hall is on crutches in the locker room.

Ohayou
11-13-2011, 04:40 PM
Regardless of what happened, I was impressed with Dalton's poise and intelligence today. You can't blame him for those two interceptions.

Edit: Leon Hall out for the rest of the season

Stray
11-13-2011, 04:57 PM
No moral victories for a team in our position, mainly because of how well we've played. But...we belonged. A few plays here or there and it's a different ballgame. We were without Leon Hall and AJ Green for most of the game and hung in there.

Dalton played well given the circumstances. His receivers didn't do him many favors.

We're gonna hang around. Call me crazy but I think today's game makes us better. Horrible news about Hall though, we need Adam Jones back ASAP.

MWM
11-13-2011, 06:16 PM
Today was the first time I'm actually starting to believe in this team. I'm so incredibly skeptical that it will take a lot for me to a convert to this team, but I thought they showed a lot out there today. Like someone else said, going down 14-0 in the first quarter would have led to a total collapse in the past. Today, it didn't seem to phase them at all. I actually thought the Bengals were the better team on the field today.

And I'm even starting to jump fully on the Dalton bandwagon. I've only watched him a few times this year, but today I kept watching him thinking there's no way this is a rookie QB. It's not the team's record or his stats, it's the things he's doing cereberally that rookie QBs rarely do. He reads blitzes and makes quick passes for 5-7 yard gains. He throws the ball away rather than hold onto it. He makes a lot of really smart plays. Maybe he really is a reason to be optimistic about the future.

Maybe there is something to them getting rid of the problem children and it being addition by subtraction. This is clearly a different team from an attitudinal standpoint. But I still believe the biggest difference is the absence of Bratkowski. I think it's hard to underestimate how awful he was as a coordinator.

will5979
11-13-2011, 06:41 PM
Bearcats and Buckeyes for college football and my high school alma mater lost to one of their biggest rivals in the football playoffs last night too. Horrible weekend for me. :(

All horrible opponents huh? You mean WVU that actually WINS their BCS bowl games?

wolfboy
11-13-2011, 08:13 PM
All horrible opponents huh? You mean WVU that actually WINS their BCS bowl games?

What do you call a team that lost to Syracuse by 26?

Reds Freak
11-13-2011, 08:43 PM
This city is cursed. As good as we felt about our teams going into this weekend, they both lose, one loses its starting quarterback for the year and the other loses its best defensive back for the year and maybe its best receiver...

will5979
11-13-2011, 09:41 PM
What do you call a team that lost to Syracuse by 26?

Again, how many BCS trophies does UC have?

MWM
11-13-2011, 10:03 PM
Should we get out the tape measures?

The Operator
11-13-2011, 10:33 PM
Again, how many BCS trophies does UC have?Don't go looking for a fight.

texasdave
11-14-2011, 12:20 AM
All horrible opponents huh? You mean WVU that actually WINS their BCS bowl games?

She didn't say they were horrible opponents. You read it wrong.

GAC
11-14-2011, 05:46 AM
All I can say is that I was going back and forth between the Browns-Rams and Bengals-Steelers games, and the Browns game, as usual, put me to sleep. Only the Browns could find a way to screw up a chip shot FG to win the game at the end. LOL

IMO, the Bengals are for real. The one play that really pee'd me off was when two Bengal defenders (Nelson and ?), obviously not realizing they were both on the same team, fought over a sure INT that didn't happen. I was cursing on that one.

But your team is fun to watch. Hall is probably gone for the season, and that's sad.

You got Baltimore this coming week who just got beat by the now 3-6 Seahawks (who lost to Cleveland 6-3). The Ravens are a Jekyll-Hyde team this years.

Redhook
11-14-2011, 07:07 AM
All horrible opponents huh? You mean WVU that actually WINS their BCS bowl games?

1) This is a Bengals thread, not a WVU thread.
2) Before starting an argument with someone, you may want to make sure what you're arguing about. Heather was not saying Pittsburgh or WVU are horrible teams. They're rivals and she, rightfully so, doesn't like them. For the Bengals and the Bearcats, it's horrible to lose to the Steelers and Mountaineers.

Redhook
11-14-2011, 07:13 AM
I'm pretty optimistic about the Bengals even after yesterday's loss. I thought they got beaten down pretty bad in the 1st half and were lucky to only be down 7, but they came out and played another solid 2nd half. I'm not used to halftime adjustments.

There were a few key plays that went the Steelers way that dictated the outcome. That stuff happens. I could see the Bengals winning their next game against them.

A couple of concerns are obviously Hall and Green. I think and hope Green will be ok soon. But, losing Hall, even though he stunk something fierce yesterday, will be a big blow. Hopefully, Adam "Don't call me Pacman" Jones can fill in without getting injured again.

Next week, I look forward to the Bengals bouncing back and beating the Ravens. That'd be great.

Sea Ray
11-14-2011, 09:19 AM
Bearcats and Buckeyes for college football and my high school alma mater lost to one of their biggest rivals in the football playoffs last night too. Horrible weekend for me. :(

It was really a horrible weekend for Ohio teams in general when you think about it. The problem with football is that we have to wait a week before going at it again and try to erase this from our minds

Hoosier Red
11-14-2011, 09:35 AM
I'm pretty optimistic about the Bengals even after yesterday's loss. I thought they got beaten down pretty bad in the 1st half and were lucky to only be down 7, but they came out and played another solid 2nd half. I'm not used to halftime adjustments.

There were a few key plays that went the Steelers way that dictated the outcome. That stuff happens. I could see the Bengals winning their next game against them.

A couple of concerns are obviously Hall and Green. I think and hope Green will be ok soon. But, losing Hall, even though he stunk something fierce yesterday, will be a big blow. Hopefully, Adam "Don't call me Pacman" Jones can fill in without getting injured again.

Next week, I look forward to the Bengals bouncing back and beating the Ravens. That'd be great.

If it makes sense, I'm more optimistic about the team's ability but less optimistic about the team's short term playoff chances.

If we accept the top 4 of the AFC are in some order; Pittsburgh, Baltimore, New England, and Houston. The Bengals are essentially in a race with the Steelers, Ravens, Jets and Bills for three spots.

Of those teams, the Jets are done with their games against the top four, the Ravens and Steelers play the Bengals and no one else. The Steelers have 2 "tough" games left, Bengals and Niners. The Ravens have three tough games left, Bengals *2 and Niners, the Jets have 0 games against the top of the conference as the toughest opponents left are Philly?, the Giants, and hosting Buffalo, and the Bengals still have 4 games against the top teams in the conference.

This isn't saying the Bengals can't beat these teams, but even if they're as good as the opponents, they'll still probably be 2-2 in that stretch. If I were a betting man, I'd say the AFC playoffs are likely to be New England, Houston, Pittsburgh/Baltimore, Oakland, Baltimore/Pittsburgh, and the Jets once again coming in as the 6th seed.

I hope they prove me wrong.

Sea Ray
11-14-2011, 09:40 AM
I think the Bengals are in the thick of it although they do need to beat the Ravens/Steelers once or twice. The Jets are the main competition and they didn't look too good last night

bucksfan2
11-14-2011, 09:45 AM
I'm pretty optimistic about the Bengals even after yesterday's loss. I thought they got beaten down pretty bad in the 1st half and were lucky to only be down 7, but they came out and played another solid 2nd half. I'm not used to halftime adjustments.

There were a few key plays that went the Steelers way that dictated the outcome. That stuff happens. I could see the Bengals winning their next game against them.

A couple of concerns are obviously Hall and Green. I think and hope Green will be ok soon. But, losing Hall, even though he stunk something fierce yesterday, will be a big blow. Hopefully, Adam "Don't call me Pacman" Jones can fill in without getting injured again.

Next week, I look forward to the Bengals bouncing back and beating the Ravens. That'd be great.

Green would be a huge loss, gigantic. He has already shown to be a difference maker and without Shippley in the slot the Bengals would be forced to go with Caldwell and Simpson and a bunch of question marks.

Hall's loss will hurt but he has been pretty poor over the past few weeks. Hopefully Jones can step in and I wonder if that means Ghee gets a chance (if he still is on the practice squad).

wolfboy
11-14-2011, 09:48 AM
I wonder if that means Ghee gets a chance (if he still is on the practice squad).

I believe he is still on the practice squad.

Stray
11-14-2011, 10:36 AM
I like the quote from Marvin on Lance's blog.

"We can play with the elite, now we have to beat the elite"

Kinda sums up my thoughts as well. Our secondary hasn't been that good all season, but it's masked by our D-Line not giving the QB a lot of time. Ben avoids the rush as well as anyone and still gets the ball downfield, so our weakness kinda got exposed. For his first time going up against a HOF'er's zone blitz scheme Dalton didn't look confused, and all of that experience is so valuable for facing this team down the road.

I really think if AJ doesn't hurt his knee it's a different outcome. We played well enough to hang around but just couldn't get over the top. I feel better about this team now than I did prior to the game which is really strange considering they lost.

Also, Baltimore lost to Seattle yesterday so we didn't lose any ground on them.

wolfboy
11-14-2011, 10:40 AM
I like the quote from Marvin on Lance's blog.

"We can play with the elite, now we have to beat the elite"

Kinda sums up my thoughts as well. Our secondary hasn't been that good all season, but it's masked by our D-Line not giving the QB a lot of time. Ben avoids the rush as well as anyone and still gets the ball downfield, so our weakness kinda got exposed. For his first time going up against a HOF'er's zone blitz scheme Dalton didn't look confused, and all of that experience is so valuable for facing this team down the road.

I really think if AJ doesn't hurt his knee it's a different outcome. We played well enough to hang around but just couldn't get over the top. I feel better about this team now than I did prior to the game which is really strange considering they lost.

Also, Baltimore lost to Seattle yesterday so we didn't lose any ground on them.

Baltimore has been Jekyll an Hyde this season. It will be interesting to see which team shows up on Sunday.

WVRed
11-14-2011, 11:36 AM
I think the Bengals are in the thick of it although they do need to beat the Ravens/Steelers once or twice. The Jets are the main competition and they didn't look too good last night

If the Ravens are in the drivers seat for the division on the last week of the season, I wouldn't be shocked if Ray Rice and Joe Flacco are rested, giving the Bengals a chance to make it as a WC.

As for the Steelers, for whatever reason the Steelers almost ALWAYS play well in Cincinnati. However, the Bengals almost ALWAYS play the Steelers well in Pittsburgh. Of course, we have a rookie QB going into the Steel City with the uncertainty of our top receiver.

I think its entirely possible to get swept by the Ravens and Steelers but still make the playoffs at 10-6. Just have to win the rest of the games with Houston being the toughest and hope for some breaks.

bucksfan2
11-14-2011, 11:55 AM
Baltimore has been Jekyll an Hyde this season. It will be interesting to see which team shows up on Sunday.

Baltimore will be Jekyll and Hyde because of their QB. Flacco is a mediocre QB who I think will have his up games as well as down games. I also wonder with the age of the defense if Baltimore won't wear down as the season goes along. But then again I have been saying the same things about Reed and Lewis for half a decade now.

wolfboy
11-14-2011, 12:46 PM
Baltimore will be Jekyll and Hyde because of their QB. Flacco is a mediocre QB who I think will have his up games as well as down games. I also wonder with the age of the defense if Baltimore won't wear down as the season goes along. But then again I have been saying the same things about Reed and Lewis for half a decade now.

Flacco suffers from the combo of a bad offensive line and an inability to get rid of the ball. The number of sacks and fumbles he's racked up the last few years is off the charts. I can't wait to see him up against the Bengals D-line.

Hillsdale87
11-14-2011, 12:54 PM
Baltimore will be Jekyll and Hyde because of their QB. Flacco is a mediocre QB who I think will have his up games as well as down games. I also wonder with the age of the defense if Baltimore won't wear down as the season goes along. But then again I have been saying the same things about Reed and Lewis for half a decade now.

Their offensive play calling has been horrible all year too. When you have a great RB and average QB, your pass: run ratio should not be 54:5. They have been doing this all year, and it doesn't make sense. As a Bengals fan I love it because Flacco is not a playmaker and won't win many games if he has to make all the plays. As a Ray Rice fantasy owner it's driving me crazy! :)

redsfandan
11-14-2011, 02:41 PM
If it makes sense, I'm more optimistic about the team's ability but less optimistic about the team's short term playoff chances.

If we accept the top 4 of the AFC are in some order; Pittsburgh, Baltimore, New England, and Houston. The Bengals are essentially in a race with the Steelers, Ravens, Jets and Bills for three spots.

Of those teams, the Jets are done with their games against the top four, the Ravens and Steelers play the Bengals and no one else. The Steelers have 2 "tough" games left, Bengals and Niners. The Ravens have three tough games left, Bengals *2 and Niners, the Jets have 0 games against the top of the conference as the toughest opponents left are Philly?, the Giants, and hosting Buffalo, and the Bengals still have 4 games against the top teams in the conference.

This isn't saying the Bengals can't beat these teams, but even if they're as good as the opponents, they'll still probably be 2-2 in that stretch. If I were a betting man, I'd say the AFC playoffs are likely to be New England, Houston, Pittsburgh/Baltimore, Oakland, Baltimore/Pittsburgh, and the Jets once again coming in as the 6th seed.

I hope they prove me wrong.

So, even if the Bengals don't make it, Bengal fans will still have someone to root for. Whoever plays Oakland. :lol:

Hoosier Red
11-14-2011, 02:47 PM
No way, if Oakland makes the playoffs(and the Bengals don't) I want Oakland to upset their way to a championship game.

CTA513
11-14-2011, 06:27 PM
Matt Schaub is out for the year after hurting his foot yesterday, so the Texans game just became a lot more winnable.

Redhook
11-15-2011, 07:44 AM
Looking at the standings, 10 wins will get the Bengals in the playoffs. The Jets and Bills each have 5 wins and play each other again. I don't see either of these teams going 5-1 the rest of the way. Tennessee would have to go 5-1 as well. That's not happening.

That being the case, the Bengals will get in if they win 4 more games. If they beat Cleveland, Arizona, and St. Louis like they should they would then only have to win one game against Pitt, Baltimore twice, and Houston. They can do that especially with 2 of those at home.

There are two huge keys to the Bengals success the rest of the way: AJ Green and Adam Jones. If Green's injury lingers, that will be a devastating blow to the offense. Their offense will turn to molasses without him. Second, Adam Jones is pretty good if he can get on and stay on the field. If healthy, they won't miss Leon Hall a ton. If not, this could also be devastating. It kind of stinks these two injuries are not only great players, but also at the Bengals thinnest positions.

Redsfaithful
11-15-2011, 08:12 AM
It's at least possible that Brandon Ghee might not suck. Third round pick, you never know.

bucksfan2
11-15-2011, 08:44 AM
Looking at the standings, 10 wins will get the Bengals in the playoffs. The Jets and Bills each have 5 wins and play each other again. I don't see either of these teams going 5-1 the rest of the way. Tennessee would have to go 5-1 as well. That's not happening.

That being the case, the Bengals will get in if they win 4 more games. If they beat Cleveland, Arizona, and St. Louis like they should they would then only have to win one game against Pitt, Baltimore twice, and Houston. They can do that especially with 2 of those at home.

There are two huge keys to the Bengals success the rest of the way: AJ Green and Adam Jones. If Green's injury lingers, that will be a devastating blow to the offense. Their offense will turn to molasses without him. Second, Adam Jones is pretty good if he can get on and stay on the field. If healthy, they won't miss Leon Hall a ton. If not, this could also be devastating. It kind of stinks these two injuries are not only great players, but also at the Bengals thinnest positions.

Never, ever, ever, ever count on wins in the NFL. How many times have good Bengals teams (oxymoron) lost to bad Bills teams? Or how about good Bengals teams losing to bad Denver teams? Look at this season Seattle knocks of the Giants in NY and then knocks off Baltimore at home. Or how about the damn Cardinals knocking me out of my king of the hill pool by beating the Eagles. If you don't come prepared you can and will lose football games.

When you look at the remaining schedule you would have to say that the Bengals will be the more talented team than the Browns, Cardinals, and St. Louis. As the season goes along a lot of teams start to loose motivation when they are down and out.

I am also going to say this and will probably eat my words, but I am not sold on the Ravens as a definite playoff team. A lot will be shown next Sunday in Baltimore but I have never bought Joe Flacco. In a one game scenario I think that defense can be amongst the best in the game. I think as this season has shown that lack consistency to be a lock. Ray Rice is dangerous but at times the teams goes away from him. Baltimore is the place were WR's go to die, don't know why, but most WR's in Baltimore aren't what they were in their previous location.

The key as the season goes along is injuries. The injury to Schaub brought the Titans back into the race. Ben goes down and the Steelers are in trouble. The same can be said about almost every team in the NFL. One injury and a team's season is in serious peril.

Todd Gack
11-15-2011, 09:14 AM
I like the quote from Marvin on Lance's blog.

"We can play with the elite, now we have to beat the elite"


He's using coach speak, but the Bengals aren't even close to an elite team. I'm not even sure the Packers are an elite team. Every team in the NFL competes with everyone on a week-to-week basis so just because you played Pittsburgh 'close' at home doesn't mean you can play with the 'elite.'

Pittsburgh is an above average team and they've played arguably an easier schedule than the Bengals. But I just laugh when people say "we can play with the elite" and then I see what the Rams did to the Saints.

Parity is the rule in this league.

Oxilon
11-15-2011, 12:58 PM
He's using coach speak, but the Bengals aren't even close to an elite team. I'm not even sure the Packers are an elite team. Every team in the NFL competes with everyone on a week-to-week basis so just because you played Pittsburgh 'close' at home doesn't mean you can play with the 'elite.'

Pittsburgh is an above average team and they've played arguably an easier schedule than the Bengals. But I just laugh when people say "we can play with the elite" and then I see what the Rams did to the Saints.

Parity is the rule in this league.

A undefeated team heading into Week 11 that could challenge the '72 Dolphins record sounds awfully elite to me.

And upsets are part of the game.