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Wheelhouse
07-28-2011, 11:37 PM
“Tomorrow we’ve got San Francisco, and they’re going to come over here and try to kick our butt,” Cairo said. “We’ve got to react. We’ve got to do something about it. We’ve got to take our tail out of our butt. Excuse my language, but everyone has to put a little more effort than what we’ve been doing."

Can anyone on the board assert that there is not a lack of motivation or professional approach on this team? Here we've heard it--from the inside.

kaldaniels
07-28-2011, 11:40 PM
I read a post within the past few days saying this team has quit. I don't buy that for a second. Just not getting the results they need.

Psychlogically though, this team is in the dumps...but it is not a "conscious" mentality if you ask me.

Wheelhouse
07-28-2011, 11:45 PM
The team is mentally out of it. And it is not being remedied by the manager. In today's game, the manager has one task--to prepare the team to play a baseball game. Dusty's laid back approach leads to snowballing negativity.

HokieRed
07-28-2011, 11:47 PM
It's really hard to believe they played as badly as they have after that Sunday night win. I'm not a big believer in chemistry or any of that stuff, but I do think you have to think something is wrong.

Wheelhouse
07-28-2011, 11:51 PM
Dusty needs to go--and my thought, Morgan will replace him. Get some kind of positive on the season, and give Little Joe a test drive...

nate
07-28-2011, 11:57 PM
“Tomorrow we’ve got San Francisco, and they’re going to come over here and try to kick our butt,” Cairo said. “We’ve got to react. We’ve got to do something about it. We’ve got to take our tail out of our butt. Excuse my language, but everyone has to put a little more effort than what we’ve been doing."

Can anyone on the board assert that there is not a lack of motivation or professional approach on this team? Here we've heard it--from the inside.

I, nate, assert that the Reds' record is not due to a lack of motivation or professional approach on this team. It's mainly due to luck/nature and poor starting pitching.

OK, good question!

cincrazy
07-28-2011, 11:58 PM
I, nate, assert that the Reds' record is not due to a lack of motivation or professional approach on this team. It's mainly due to luck/nature and poor starting pitching.

OK, good question!

We can call it luck, or we can call it a poor ballclub. The record speaks for itself my friend.

cincrazy
07-28-2011, 11:59 PM
I don't think this team is underperforming because of the lack of any mental abilities. I think they're just not good enough. Offensively. Defensively. Pitching. None of it is good enough. And when we play good teams, it's clear as day. Even the mediocre teams take us to task this year (hellloooooooooooo New York Mets).

nate
07-29-2011, 12:02 AM
We can call it luck, or we can call it a poor ballclub.

Well, no, "we" can't because "I" don't believe it's a poor ballclub. Average to slightly above average but not poor. Poor is the Houston Astros.


The record speaks for itself my friend.

Great! I'm not sure how that relates to my assertion that effort has little to do with the record so far this year.

VR
07-29-2011, 12:02 AM
What's telling is that the reserve infielder is the one who has to say this.

Wheelhouse
07-29-2011, 12:04 AM
I defy anyone on the board to come up with a statement from a professional baseball scout or executive that says the Reds do not have the best talent in the division. That is, a statement not by someone who is employed by the team they are advocating. The Reds have the best talent. They are the best in the division. They have a poor approach to playing baseball games--this is what needs to be fixed.

Slyder
07-29-2011, 12:17 AM
“Tomorrow we’ve got San Francisco, and they’re going to come over here and try to kick our butt,” Cairo said. “We’ve got to react. We’ve got to do something about it. We’ve got to take our tail out of our butt. Excuse my language, but everyone has to put a little more effort than what we’ve been doing."

Can anyone on the board assert that there is not a lack of motivation or professional approach on this team? Here we've heard it--from the inside.

I man love Miguel Cairo. He has now gone from an after thought when he was signed to being one of my favorite Reds. I also agree with VR that its telling and pathetic that a reserve infielder is the one trying to light a fire under this team.

cincrazy
07-29-2011, 12:18 AM
Well, no, "we" can't because "I" don't believe it's a poor ballclub. Average to slightly above average but not poor. Poor is the Houston Astros.



Great! I'm not sure how that relates to my assertion that effort has little to do with the record so far this year.

I call losing four straight to the Mets a poor ballclub. Poor doesn't have to be as extreme as the Houston Astros. I've watched this team all year. They've got huge holes at third, short, left, a lot of days in center, and the pitching staff has been a mess at different points. Have injuries contributed? Sure. Has there been bad luck? I don't know. You are what your record says you are. They're 5 games under .500. Below average. It's not May any longer.

cincrazy
07-29-2011, 12:20 AM
I defy anyone on the board to come up with a statement from a professional baseball scout or executive that says the Reds do not have the best talent in the division. That is, a statement not by someone who is employed by the team they are advocating. The Reds have the best talent. They are the best in the division. They have a poor approach to playing baseball games--this is what needs to be fixed.

Do we really have the best talent? I disagree. Having the most "potential" and the most "talent" are two different things to me. Holliday, Pujols, Carpenter, Garcia, Berkman and Weeks, Fielder, Braun, Greinke, Marcum trumps anything we throw out there and it's not even all that close. Votto, Cueto.... and when who fits in with the rest of the guys mentioned above? Phillips? Bruce? I'd put both a tier below. Who else?

MikeThierry
07-29-2011, 12:22 AM
I defy anyone on the board to come up with a statement from a professional baseball scout or executive that says the Reds do not have the best talent in the division. That is, a statement not by someone who is employed by the team they are advocating. The Reds have the best talent. They are the best in the division. They have a poor approach to playing baseball games--this is what needs to be fixed.

I might be splitting hairs when we talk about the difference between talent and potential. To me, talent is something that is already there where as potential is something that projects to the future. Clearly the Reds have the most potential but they might be third in talent. I would argue that the Brewers have the most realized talent with the Cards close behind, in this division. I look at the Reds lineup, for example, and I can't take it over the Brewers or the Cards right now. Both those lineups are more talented than the Reds at this point in time. That will probably change in the future but right now I see more potential on the Reds than realized talent.

cincrazy
07-29-2011, 12:23 AM
Anyways, sorry for getting this thread off topic, if you gentlemen would discuss any of the above mentioned points let's do it through PM :).

Cairo has been more to this team than I ever imagined, on the field and in the clubhouse. And it's good to see him put the frustration out there for the public to see. These guys care. They're just falling short.

MikeThierry
07-29-2011, 12:23 AM
haha cin, we posted essentially the exact same thing at the same time. Very odd.

Will M
07-29-2011, 12:31 AM
I don't think this team is underperforming because of the lack of any mental abilities. I think they're just not good enough. Offensively. Defensively. Pitching. None of it is good enough. And when we play good teams, it's clear as day. Even the mediocre teams take us to task this year (hellloooooooooooo New York Mets).

last year the good teams beat us, often spanked us. but we crushed the weak teams. just crushed them. this year the weak teams have been routinely beating us. i'd have to look it up but it seems like we have actually played a bit better against the good teams but given that all away by losing game after game after game to 2nd division teams.

BCubb2003
07-29-2011, 12:31 AM
We expected to have Phillips, Votto, Bruce and Rolen giving the pitchers fits, then Stubbs, the catchers and the left fielders coming up with key hits sometimes. With the exception of May and little of June, it's been Phillips and Votto and a lot of holes. We expected to have, not the most talented rotation, but at least the deepest. It's been Cueto after he turned it on and Leake when he came back, and the ups and downs of Bailey, Wood, Volquez and Willis. Now the defense, which was a point of pride, has gone to pieces.

Ghosts of 1990
07-29-2011, 01:15 AM
Dusty needs to go--and my thought, Morgan will replace him. Get some kind of positive on the season, and give Little Joe a test drive...

But that man is an idiot (Morgan)

Mario-Rijo
07-29-2011, 01:54 AM
Well no doubt it's little of everything. I said in another thread that OCab was a loss because of his positive energy and outspoken nature. But truth is if we had Rolen of last year we wouldn't be in this position. We kind of expected that but like the F.O. we expected some improvements from certain guys and certainly didn't expect anyone to go backwards (Sans Stubbs and Arroyo to some extent, myself).

I actually think this is about what we should have expected, we won alot of games late last year because our starters pitched well and kept us in games & we had more than one professional hitter (though BP has slightly improved yet again). So far this year that hasn't been the case and it's been compounded by the players reacting to it in some instances but to look at the record right now given how bad our starting pitching has been and the lack of protection for Votto and I actually do believe we can still win this year.

That's if the BP doesn't implode from overuse.

Ron Madden
07-29-2011, 05:25 AM
I man love Miguel Cairo. He has now gone from an after thought when he was signed to being one of my favorite Reds. I also agree with VR that its telling and pathetic that a reserve infielder is the one trying to light a fire under this team.

I like Miquel Cairo too but he could have easily been charged with 4 errors in the past week and a half alone. It's hard to tell others to get their head outta their arse when you, yourself are sitting on your own shoulders.

GAC
07-29-2011, 06:00 AM
“Tomorrow we’ve got San Francisco, and they’re going to come over here and try to kick our butt,” Cairo said. “We’ve got to react. We’ve got to do something about it. We’ve got to take our tail out of our butt. Excuse my language, but everyone has to put a little more effort than what we’ve been doing."

You left out the part where he said "We stink right now."

That's all that really needed to be said. Simple and straight to the point.

signalhome
07-29-2011, 08:11 AM
I like Miquel Cairo too but he could have easily been charged with 4 errors in the past week and a half alone. It's hard to tell others to get their head outta their arse when you, yourself are sitting on your own shoulders.

Great point. :thumbup:

I really think the whole lack of effort or whatever thing is being a bit overblown, but yeah, Cairo is in no position to talk.

redsfandan
07-29-2011, 08:21 AM
What's telling is that the reserve infielder is the one who has to say this.

It would be bigger news to me if someone like Votto, Phillips, or Bruce said it.

cumberlandreds
07-29-2011, 08:38 AM
It's good Cairo came out with this but it would have been much better and more effective if it had come from Votto. He's the best player on the team and when thebest player says something like this it will usually stick. I know it's not Votto's nature to be outspoken but it would really help if he would speak up and out when needed.

Hoosier Red
07-29-2011, 10:04 AM
“Tomorrow we’ve got San Francisco, and they’re going to come over here and try to kick our butt,” Cairo said. “We’ve got to react. We’ve got to do something about it. We’ve got to take our tail out of our butt. Excuse my language, but everyone has to put a little more effort than what we’ve been doing."

Can anyone on the board assert that there is not a lack of motivation or professional approach on this team? Here we've heard it--from the inside.

One reason why I rarely listen to players for self analysis, is that the very character traits that help make them successful enough to play in the major leagues eliminates their ability to properly analyze forces outside their control.

Miguel Cairo would never have had a 15 year career. If he didn't continually push himself to work harder and to focus only on what he can control.

So when an athlete goes 0-4, there's one solution. Work harder. When the team plays lousy for a stretch, they need to work harder. When the team has a few bad breaks go against it, work harder. Concentrate. Focus.

Baseball players are trained to not say, well hopefully we'll eventually get those breaks.
If they do mention bad luck, it's always in the context of how things will even out. Not that they might, or should, or could, but that it WILL even out. Even when they talk about luck and random variation, athletes talk about it as if they have control.

Unassisted
07-29-2011, 10:28 AM
It's good Cairo came out with this but it would have been much better and more effective if it had come from Votto. He's the best player on the team and when thebest player says something like this it will usually stick. I know it's not Votto's nature to be outspoken but it would really help if he would speak up and out when needed.
Griffey would never say such things when he was "the best player" with the Reds, either. It's just not the way he and Votto function.

smith288
07-29-2011, 10:36 AM
Votto's death stare is enough. The Most Interesting Man in the World has a poster of Votto on his wall.

cumberlandreds
07-29-2011, 10:49 AM
Griffey would never say such things when he was "the best player" with the Reds, either. It's just not the way he and Votto function.

And I think that, among many other things, is what hurt those Reds teams. When the best player won't speak out when it's necessary it really hurts the team.

smith288
07-29-2011, 10:57 AM
When a player speaks out who usually doesnt, may get attention in the clubhouse or whatever but the players who are struggling still go to the plate and have to deal with their funks. Votto yelling at them isn't going to change their hitch, holes and lack of discipline. IMHO.

Tony Cloninger
07-29-2011, 11:32 AM
It's good Cairo came out with this but it would have been much better and more effective if it had come from Votto. He's the best player on the team and when thebest player says something like this it will usually stick. I know it's not Votto's nature to be outspoken but it would really help if he would speak up and out when needed.

The parallel of Votto to Carson Palmer, another quiet so called leader..... is what I am thinking of right now. I always wanted Carson to speak up about the BS that was going on in the bengals, the distaste I know he had for Chad, probably Marvin as well after a while.......but he never did.

Too many quiet leaders on my favorite teams. I like Gary Cooper but they do not seem to be the guys who can lead others.

BCubb2003
07-29-2011, 11:48 AM
Votto: "I need to make better throws to the pitcher covering first."

Phillips: "I need to get hits with the bases loaded, and not be lazy on defense -- I'm too good for that."

Cairo: "I know I don't have the range I used to, so I need to field cleanly what I can get to."

Stubbs: "I need to bunt more, and choke up with two strikes."

Bruce: "I need to remember whatever it was I was doing in May."

Rolen: "Maybe it's time to become a coach."

Edskin
07-29-2011, 12:54 PM
I think people confuse lack of energy and lack of confidence with lack of effort. On Wednesday night against the Mets we were totally lifeless. Dugout was like a morgue, fans sittin on hands, guys taking horrible at bats.

I think what happens is all human nature. You struggle idividually and as a team, you get frustrated, you start to press.

I will freely admit that when I get frustrated doing something I will often times allow my performance to slip. For example, when trying to convert my daughters crib to a toddler bed, I got really frustrated, started lacking confidence in what I was trying to do and just hammered some stuff to make it stay in place. I stripped threads and basically ruined the whole thing making it impossible to ever convert again.

Stupid analogy? Probably, but I think the theory holds water.

The team is bummed that we've struggled so much. Frustration sets in and concentration wavers. It manifests itself to fans as a lack of effort.

I think when Stubbs is down 0-2 in the count he's already beat. I don't think he has any confidence at all and he winds up flailing and looking like he doesn't care.

Anyone who thinks that the mental side of the game is why the Reds aren't leading te division is probably off base. But anyone who thinks the mental side isn't contributing to how fast we've fallen is also off base.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-29-2011, 01:30 PM
Great point. :thumbup:

I really think the whole lack of effort or whatever thing is being a bit overblown, but yeah, Cairo is in no position to talk.

That's why Miguel used words like "we" and "everyone."

Thank God there is at least one person on this team who will stand up and take some semblance of charge. Who else is going to show leadership? Joey? Bruce? DatdudeBP?

Votto is a lot like Carson Palmer: a great player who might prefer to be elsewhere but is here right now; he doesn't like the spotlight, won't criticize others and wants to keep to himself and out of the spotlight.

Phillips is Ochocinco Light and is more concerned with getting his thoughts out in tweet form as soon as is humanly possible after the game. Unless he plans to lead through Twitter and now Facebook, he's not going to be heard from.

Rolen doesn't play nearly enough to be a real leader anymore. You can't lead if your not there.

Jay Bruce's deer-in-the-headlights approach at the plate doesn't inspire much confidence either. And, at 23, he's nowhere near being able to speak for this team.

That leaves us with Miguel Cairo by default. If some contender out there is smart, they'll call Walt about him before Sunday afternoon.

OldXOhio
07-29-2011, 02:08 PM
That's why Miguel used words like "we" and "everyone."

Thank God there is at least one person on this team who will stand up and take some semblance of charge. Who else is going to show leadership? Joey?

That leaves us with Miguel Cairo by default. If some contender out there is smart, they'll call Walt about him before Sunday afternoon.

Exactly what I was thinking. Would be a solid part for a contender.

Slyder
07-29-2011, 02:23 PM
Cairo is the one "Veteran" I wouldn't trade at this point. His value to the team right now is greater than anything he'll bring back in a trade. He's got another year on his contract if I remember correctly. He's a backup infielder with a solid bat, no one is going to give up a lot more than maybe what Gomes brought us and many here have said that both of those guys are long shots at best.

Granted if someone is willing to give us something of immediate value that wouldn't be blocked by someone or better than what we have already fine but we have enough prospects being blocked by other prospects and thats what I think we would get from any deal with Cairo involved.

OldXOhio
07-29-2011, 02:27 PM
Cairo is the one "Veteran" I wouldn't trade at this point. His value to the team right now is greater than anything he'll bring back in a trade. He's got another year on his contract if I remember correctly. He's a backup infielder with a solid bat, no one is going to give up a lot more than maybe what Gomes brought us and many here have said that both of those guys are long shots at best.

Granted if someone is willing to give us something of immediate value that wouldn't be blocked by someone or better than what we have already fine but we have enough prospects being blocked by other prospects and thats what I think we would get from any deal with Cairo involved.

I'm not advocating dealing Cairo, I'm glad he's a Red. And yes, he wouldn't bring enough in return to justify it anyway.

Hopefully we are a contender next year, I think he will provide value once again.