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View Full Version : Bruce and Bailey trade talks???



alexad
07-28-2011, 11:01 PM
ESPN reporting a possible trade of Bruce and Bailey to Rays for Upton and others....anyone else hear it just now or am dreaming!??

thatcoolguy_22
07-28-2011, 11:03 PM
The haul better be massive if so. I'm looking around for news now

VR
07-28-2011, 11:03 PM
ESPN reporting a possible trade of Bruce and Bailey to Rays for Upton and others....anyone else hear it just now or am dreaming!??

It better be Upton, Price, and Shields.

nate
07-28-2011, 11:03 PM
That would be quite something.

alexad
07-28-2011, 11:04 PM
They were talking about it on baseball tonight.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-28-2011, 11:10 PM
Something drastic has to be done at this point. That's all I'll say.

signalhome
07-28-2011, 11:11 PM
Something drastic has to be done at this point. That's all I'll say.

Trading away someone as talented and young as Bruce would certainly qualify as drastic, among other things.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-28-2011, 11:13 PM
Trading away someone as talented and young as Bruce would certainly qualify as drastic, among other things.

Among a lot of other things. Franchise-altering, if true.

LoganBuck
07-28-2011, 11:14 PM
What if the deal looked like this

Bruce
Bailey
Alonso
Wood

Shields
Upton
Longoria

fearofpopvol1
07-28-2011, 11:15 PM
Bruce, Bailey and Volquez for Longoria and Shields.

signalhome
07-28-2011, 11:15 PM
Among a lot of other things. Franchise-altering, if true.

Yep. I have a hard time believing Jocketty would trade away Bruce after giving him that big six-year deal in the offseason, so I really doubt there's anything to this.

alexad
07-28-2011, 11:15 PM
Giving up on 2 former number 1 picks and talk of Alonso being traded. Reds could make history trading away 4 number 1's if Grandal or Mes gets traded this week.

757690
07-28-2011, 11:16 PM
I hear it's for Gary Majewski, Bill Bray, and Royce Clayton.

CTA513
07-28-2011, 11:17 PM
What if the deal looked like this

Bruce
Bailey
Alonso
Wood

Shields
Upton
Longoria

Everyone should celebrate by running around naked in the streets

LoganBuck
07-28-2011, 11:20 PM
Everyone should celebrate by running around naked in the streets

Not all of us. Naked just doesn't look good on some people.

Benihana
07-28-2011, 11:24 PM
Can anyone other than the OP actually confirm they heard a real rumor about this? My guess is it is/was not a credible rumor whatsoever.

MikeThierry
07-28-2011, 11:27 PM
Wow, if you guys do that, that is a game changer. Longoria in that ballpark would be INSANE

thatcoolguy_22
07-28-2011, 11:27 PM
After an exhaustive 23 minute search, I have found nothing to substantiate. I'm guessing it was idle chatter by talking heads who are not very familiar with the contracts involved and personel of the Rays/Reds. Random speculation on known names led to this thread

alexad
07-28-2011, 11:28 PM
They talked about it on TV. That's why I asked if anyone else heard it. I have looked around and can not find anything on it.

Homer Bailey
07-28-2011, 11:30 PM
There is nothing on this anywhere. Not even mentioned on twitter. If this was mentioned on TV, twitter would have exploded.

Shut it down.

alexad
07-28-2011, 11:33 PM
I am not trying to start a rumor. Asking if anyone else heard anything.

757690
07-28-2011, 11:35 PM
Bailey and Bruce for Shields and Upton would be a great trade for both teams.

The Reds get the true #1 starter they need, and Raya get a 5 win RF with a great contract. They also switch a five tool CF and a great arm, who both have vote failed to live up to their talent.

corkedbat
07-28-2011, 11:36 PM
Now I now why the frontoffice has drafted so many 4rd OF-types over the years. They plan to fill the OF with them. I would guess if such adeal wenr doen, we'd still be in the market for Jiminez (if the price dropped some) and Lucwick. No way I would deal Bruce unless Longoria was in the deal. No way do I see the Rays dealing Longoria (although I've said that about Bruce and the Reds too).

reds44
07-28-2011, 11:36 PM
There's not a chance in hell I'm trading Bruce and Bailey for Shield and Upton. No, no, no, no, no and no.

And there's also no chance this is real.

MWM
07-28-2011, 11:37 PM
I've grown attached to Jay Bruce....would hate to see him go.

jojo
07-28-2011, 11:37 PM
What if the deal looked like this

Bruce
Bailey
Alonso
Wood

Shields
Upton
Longoria

The rays would never do that.

smith288
07-28-2011, 11:38 PM
I've grown attached to Jay Bruce....would hate to see him go.
I have too...those slow breaking balls in the dirt he flails at are a wonderful break from the hot, ohio summers. :D

corkedbat
07-28-2011, 11:39 PM
I've grown attached to Jay Bruce....would hate to see him go.

I've grown attached ot my left n*t, but I might consider it if the Rays throw in Longoria. :D

MWM
07-28-2011, 11:40 PM
I've grown attached ot my left n*t, but I might consider it if the Rays throw in Longoria. :D

I'm going on the assumption that any mention of Longoria is rubbish.

alexad
07-28-2011, 11:41 PM
Only thing I can find on Reds MLBtraderumors.com

By Ben Nicholson-Smith [July 28 at 10:32pm CST]
The Mets completed a four-game sweep in Cincinnati this afternoon, so the 50-55 Reds face a decision: do they continue pursuing difficult-to-obtain players like Ubaldo Jimenez and Hunter Pence or approach possible trades with a cautious approach more typical of a fourth-place team? At this point, the Reds may still be undecided. An unnamed general manager told Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports that Reds GM Walt Jocketty seems unsure about which course to take between now and Sunday’s trade deadline (Twitter link).

The Reds are now in fourth place, 6.5 games out of first and John Fay of the Cincinnati Enquirer guesses that if they make a move it will be directed toward making a difference in future seasons (Twitter link). As Danny Knobler of CBSSports.com points out, the Reds weren't in contention when they acquired Scott Rolen from the Blue Jays in 2009 (Twitter link).

kaldaniels
07-28-2011, 11:42 PM
Longoria is the player fangraphs awards the "player with most trade value" to. Maybe Votto and Bruce would get it done.

Brutus
07-28-2011, 11:47 PM
Longoria is still only due $4.5 million next year. I would think the Rays would never consider trading him.

I doubt there's much veracity to these rumors. Perhaps there's some sort of blockbuster being discussed, but I feel confident it wouldn't include Longoria.

MikeThierry
07-28-2011, 11:48 PM
If you aren't getting Longoria out of the deal, I don't know if it would be worth it. I'm not sold on BJ Upton. Ironically, he seems like another Colby Rasmus where all the talent in the world is there but something is holding him back.

MartyFan
07-28-2011, 11:49 PM
I think it is funny how everyone thinks Walt is "unsure"...like he is some confused old man. Remember this is the guy who got players who never wanted to be in St.Louis to go to STL and stay. He is the guy who rocked the world with trades for Mac, Walker and others in that time and made STL the pain in the ass that they are.

BCubb2003
07-28-2011, 11:52 PM
I think it is funny how everyone thinks Walt is "unsure"...like he is some confused old man.

Like everyone else, he just saw the team plunge out of contention, so he has to adjust a little.

Is there a RaysZone? Probably not.

LoganBuck
07-28-2011, 11:56 PM
I was the one who mentioned Longoria.

I did it because Shields and Upton for Bruce and Bailey, I find equally ridiculous.

corkedbat
07-29-2011, 12:00 AM
I don't believe the Rays would deal longoria? I really don't believe we would deal Bruce, but would you do:

Jay Bruce
Homer Bailey
Yasmani Grandal
Jordan Smith

(for)

James Shields
BJ Upton
Matt Joyce
Russ Carter (AAA 3B)
Jake McGee (AAA LHRP)
(and/or)
Alex Cobb (AAA RHSP)

???

I wouldn't. Just asking.

kaldaniels
07-29-2011, 12:02 AM
I was the one who mentioned Longoria.

I did it because Shields and Upton for Bruce and Bailey, I find equally ridiculous.

Shields > Bailey
Bruce > Upton

It really isn't that far-fetched. Though given Bruce's contract I would not do that.

Mario-Rijo
07-29-2011, 12:09 AM
I don't think there is anyway I would deal Bruce, I just think it sends an awful message. The Reds F.O. once upon a time dealt a guy who was aging a bit because they thought he was slowing down, it would be a mistake to deal a guy because you think this is who he is gonna be for good. Bruce's potential and willingness to be the face of the Reds is enough for me to make him the one guy I just couldn't let go of.

I can understand why someone might suggest no one is untouchable and there are currently more valuable guys out there but who knows if they would actually want to remain a Red if they were dealt there, that is one question we don't have to ask about Jay Bruce, don't screw that up.

Additionally let me add he's a GG defender, an excellent baserunner, a good power LHH and what's not to like about the man who I might also add is a tireless worker. He'll get his bat figured out and then he is as complete a player as there is in the league.

MikeThierry
07-29-2011, 12:09 AM
I think it is funny how everyone thinks Walt is "unsure"...like he is some confused old man. Remember this is the guy who got players who never wanted to be in St.Louis to go to STL and stay. He is the guy who rocked the world with trades for Mac, Walker and others in that time and made STL the pain in the ass that they are.

I'm not so sure Walt had to sell St. Louis because St. Louis kind of sold itself to its players. A lot of players wanted to come to St. Louis because of the atmosphere and it being a baseball town.


Jay Bruce
Homer Bailey
Yasmani Grandal
Jordan Smith

(for)

James Shields
BJ Upton
Matt Joyce
Russ Carter (AAA 3B)
Jake McGee (AAA LHRP)
(and/or)
Alex Cobb (AAA RHSP)

That seams like a lot the Rays would be giving up considering that they are giving up a front line Ace type pitcher in the potential trade.

corkedbat
07-29-2011, 12:12 AM
I'm not so sure Walt had to sell St. Louis because St. Louis kind of sold itself to its players. A lot of players wanted to come to St. Louis because of the atmosphere and it being a baseball town.



That seems like a lot the Rays would be giving up considering that they are giving up a front line Ace type pitcher in the potential trade.

I considered that too, but I also considered tha the Reds would be giving up a lot in RF, plus they are looking for a catcher and Grandal is a good one at a premium spot..

Like I said, don't see this happening.

Tom Servo
07-29-2011, 12:13 AM
I just don't have much interest in Upton. I think he's interesting but he's not someone I'm interested in giving up pieces for so I'd rather just move along.

Caveat Emperor
07-29-2011, 12:18 AM
You don't sign a guy to a 7 year deal only to bail on him in Year 1.

I've been Bruce's biggest critic recently, but even I'd say that's the definition of reactionary.

RBA
07-29-2011, 12:19 AM
I hear it's for Gary Majewski, Bill Bray, and Royce Clayton.

:lol:

MikeThierry
07-29-2011, 12:23 AM
I considered that too, but I also considered tha the Reds would be giving up a lot in RF, plus they are looking for a catcher and Grandal is a good one at a premium spot..

Like I said, don't see this happening.

It is so hard though to find Ace type pitching though, that giving up all of that might be worth it. If you look at all the playoff contending teams in baseball there is one constant that they share in common, they all have at least one or two dominant pitchers. The Giants and Braves all have bad lineups (well the Giants did until Beltran) but their dominant pitching is why they both could potentially go far in the playoffs. There hasn't been a WS winner that I can remember that didn't have dominant front line pitching. In my opinion, if you have as many prospects as the Reds do, it might be worth it to give up on a potential stud RF and catcher to get a known quantity Ace type in Shields or even Price.

Brutus
07-29-2011, 12:30 AM
You don't sign a guy to a 7 year deal only to bail on him in Year 1.

I've been Bruce's biggest critic recently, but even I'd say that's the definition of reactionary.

While I'm working under the impression there's absolutely no truth to this rumor, wouldn't we need to know what exactly the trade 'rumor' was before we could know if this kind of thing was advisable?

After all, if somehow it was a trade including Upton, Shields & Joyce or Howell or some other combination... that would be quite a haul. If the words "Evan" and "Longoria" appeared in some form, then we'd really be looking at a whole different ballgame.

I tend to agree with you in principle, but as with any player, no one is untouchable regardless of their contract if it were for the right price.

MikeThierry
07-29-2011, 12:33 AM
I tend to agree with you in principle, but as with any player, no one is untouchable regardless of their contract if it were for the right price.

Completely agree. If a deal that sends Bruce to Tampa in exchange for Longo, that deal must be done in a heart beat. I wouldn't even hesitate on that.

corkedbat
07-29-2011, 12:47 AM
I'm not so sure Walt had to sell St. Louis because St. Louis kind of sold itself to its players. A lot of players wanted to come to St. Louis because of the atmosphere and it being a baseball town.



That seams like a lot the Rays would be giving up considering that they are giving up a front line Ace type pitcher in the potential trade.

yeah, i realize Shields is your ace type and I want him mre than anybody mentioned on these boards as possibilities, but I'm just not that big of a BJ Upton fan.

While it could be seen as:

Shields > Bailey
Bruce > Upton

I see it as:

Shields >> Bailey
Bruce >>>> Upton (maybe >>>>>)

To me, I would have to get both Upton and Joyce to feel close to secure enough to deal Bruce (and I understand it may not be rational) - even for an Ace I want as much as Shields

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-29-2011, 12:49 AM
I'm not so sure Walt had to sell St. Louis because St. Louis kind of sold itself to its players. A lot of players wanted to come to St. Louis because of the atmosphere and it being a baseball town.


:rolleyes:

corkedbat
07-29-2011, 12:53 AM
Like everyone else, he just saw the team plunge out of contention, so he has to adjust a little.

Is there a RaysZone? Probably not.

Define "is" :D

Mario-Rijo
07-29-2011, 12:58 AM
It is so hard though to find Ace type pitching though, that giving up all of that might be worth it. If you look at all the playoff contending teams in baseball there is one constant that they share in common, they all have at least one or two dominant pitchers. The Giants and Braves all have bad lineups (well the Giants did until Beltran) but their dominant pitching is why they both could potentially go far in the playoffs. There hasn't been a WS winner that I can remember that didn't have dominant front line pitching. In my opinion, if you have as many prospects as the Reds do, it might be worth it to give up on a potential stud RF and catcher to get a known quantity Ace type in Shields or even Price.

Shields is a very good pitcher but IMO he is no legit ACE. And so no I wouldn't be dealing off cornerstones for him.

MikeThierry
07-29-2011, 01:01 AM
Shields is a very good pitcher but IMO he is no legit ACE. And so no I wouldn't be dealing off cornerstones for him.

Looking at his past numbers you might be right. One part of that though might be pitching in the AL East which can make even the best pitcher look less than what they really are. Would you do it for someone like Price or Jimenez though?


yeah, i realize Shields is your ace type and I want him mre than anybody mentioned on these boards as possibilities, but I'm just not that big of a BJ Upton fan.

I agree with you on BJ Upton. Why over hyped in my opinion.

corkedbat
07-29-2011, 01:03 AM
It is so hard though to find Ace type pitching though, that giving up all of that might be worth it. If you look at all the playoff contending teams in baseball there is one constant that they share in common, they all have at least one or two dominant pitchers. The Giants and Braves all have bad lineups (well the Giants did until Beltran) but their dominant pitching is why they both could potentially go far in the playoffs. There hasn't been a WS winner that I can remember that didn't have dominant front line pitching. In my opinion, if you have as many prospects as the Reds do, it might be worth it to give up on a potential stud RF and catcher to get a known quantity Ace type in Shields or even Price.

Even if the Reds were to add Shields AND Jiminez, they wouldn't be on a par with the Giants or Phils staffs (closer yes, certainly not there).

The Reds need to compliment that "almost there" with a solid offense. They can't do that if they're substantially below average at three Corner spots (3B/LF/RF). It doesn't help that the Reds have completely ignored those spots in the draft since Bruce was drafted.

MikeThierry
07-29-2011, 01:07 AM
Even if the Reds were to add Shields AND Jiminez, they wouldn't be on a par with the Giants or Phils staffs (closer yes, certainly not there).

The Reds need to compliment that "almmost there with a solid offense. They can do that id they're substantially below average at three Corner spots (3B/LF/RF). It doesn't help tha the Reds have completely ignored those spots in the draft since Bruce was drafted.

I don't know about that. I would hate for the Cards to face Cueto, Jiminez, and Shields back to back. That would be a nightmare and could win you a division. I'll say this, I'll take that up against practically any team in a playoff series where the games are already unpredictable and anything can happen. It would certainly match up within the division going up against a healthy Wainwright, Carpenter, and Garcia plus anything else the Brewers can throw at you.

corkedbat
07-29-2011, 01:11 AM
I don't know about that. I would hate for the Cards to face Cueto, Jiminez, and Shields back to back. That would be a nightmare and could win you a division. I'll say this, I'll take that up against practically any team in a playoff series where the games are already unpredictable and anything can happen. It would certainly match up within the division going up against a healthy Wainwright, Carpenter, and Garcia plus anything else the Brewers can throw at you.

I can see your point and might consider it if I thought the Reds could go out and get suitable replacements in left and right field, but they can't seem to just fill LF as it is. You'd be left with an OF of Heisey/Stubbs/Upton and that is just not adequate to me.

The fact that Jimiinez is losing MPH on his fastball makes me queasy too, but that's a different thread.

Mario-Rijo
07-29-2011, 01:17 AM
Looking at his past numbers you might be right. One part of that though might be pitching in the AL East which can make even the best pitcher look less than what they really are. Would you do it for someone like Price or Jimenez though?



I agree with you on BJ Upton. Why over hyped in my opinion.

Price you almost can't say no to really but trading Bruce is trading away alot more than just a player. Bruce will be here 6+ more years Price will likely get dealt next year when we can't/won't afford him anymore. I wouldn't do it unless there is a contract extension involved that we could actually afford, preferably a good long one.

757690
07-29-2011, 01:19 AM
I think people need to accept that Bruce is a very good player, a solid .800+ OPS guy with gold glove level defense, but he's not the guy you build a team around.

And he's not 23 anymore. I think what we see is what we get.

If the Reds could build a trade that gets them a pitcher like Shields without making any holes in the roster, I'd could be talked into it.

This could be very similar to the 1971 trade that sent sent the fan favorite Lee May to the Astros and brought back Joe Morgan. I think the Reds need a trade like that (obviously not at lopsided as that one eventually was) to get this team to where it should be.

MikeThierry
07-29-2011, 01:23 AM
This could be very similar to the 1971 trade that sent sent the fan favorite Lee May to the Astros and brought back Joe Morgan. I think the Reds need a trade like that (obviously not at lopsided as that one eventually was) to get this team to where it should be.

Wow, never realized how lopsided of a trade that was. Reminds me of Brolio for Lou Brock. The Cubs never forgot that one. Sorry to get off topic but I'm amazed how lopsided that trade was to get Morgan.

Mario-Rijo
07-29-2011, 01:24 AM
I think people need to accept that Bruce is a very good player, a solid .800+ OPS guy with gold glove level defense, but he's not the guy you build a team around.

And he's not 23 anymore. I think what we see is what we get.

If the Reds could build a trade that gets them a pitcher like Shields without making any holes in the roster, I'd could be talked into it.

This could be very similar to the 1971 trade that sent sent the fan favorite Lee May to the Astros and brought back Joe Morgan. I think the Reds need a trade like that (obviously not at lopsided as that one eventually was) to get this team to where it should be.

Your right about one thing, he's 24. But I don't think it's fair to pigeon a hole a guy that early in his career. Heck he hasn't even hit his prime yet and won't for a few years so I don't get how you can assume such a thing. In fact I'd say that due to the latter if nothing else you have virtually no chance of being correct in that assumption.

757690
07-29-2011, 01:35 AM
Wow, never realized how lopsided of a trade that was. Reminds me of Brolio for Lou Brock. The Cubs never forgot that one. Sorry to get off topic but I'm amazed how lopsided that trade was to get Morgan.

Brock was an amazing steal, and from the Cubs too, making it all the sweeter.

Funny thing, the Morgan trade was very unpopular with the fans at the time. May and Helms were fan favorites and two of the teams better players, while Morgan was relatively unknown. I have a friend who to this day still thinks it was bad trade, although he also thinks Lee May is a first ballot Hall Of Famer. lol

Ron Madden
07-29-2011, 03:50 AM
:rolleyes:

You can roll your eyes if you want to but St Louis is a proud franchise with a long history of success.

I dislike the current flock of Red Birds as much as anyone in Reds Country but make no mistake, the St Louis Cardinals have long been and still are one of the most respected organizations in the history of MLB.


I'd love to have Big Game James but I don't think I'd trade Jay Bruce for him straight up.
I wouldn't trade any young player with value for B J Upton either.

.

camisadelgolf
07-29-2011, 04:05 AM
I haven't seen a single remotely-plausible trade proposal in this thread.

GADawg
07-29-2011, 06:24 AM
Not all of us. Naked just doesn't look good on some people.

i almost closed this thread down and gave you a couple of infractions 'cause I feel like this is a personal attack on me!

LoganBuck
07-29-2011, 07:43 AM
i almost closed this thread down and gave you a couple of infractions 'cause I feel like this is a personal attack on me!

I have never seen you, but my guess is you are a dude, so I am going to say, "Naked does not look good on you!".

Take it how you want.:D

_Sir_Charles_
07-29-2011, 08:03 AM
Okay, people here aren't SERIOUSLY chatting about Bruce trade proposals...are they?!?

*shakes his head sadly*

There are some days that this place is a test for my sanity.

camisadelgolf
07-29-2011, 08:22 AM
Okay, people here aren't SERIOUSLY chatting about Bruce trade proposals...are they?!?

*shakes his head sadly*

There are some days that this place is a test for my sanity.
Don't worry. That stuff almost completely goes away when the Reds pull off a series sweep. It'll happen eventually.

PuffyPig
07-29-2011, 08:28 AM
I think people need to accept that Bruce is a very good player, a solid .800+ OPS guy with gold glove level defense, but he's not the guy you build a team around.

And he's not 23 anymore. I think what we see is what we get.



He's 24, an age when many players are still in the minors learning their craft.

He's still has plenty of projection left.

Ryan Howards first full time seadon with the Phillies was when he was 26.

Votto was the same age when he had his rookie season with the Reds.

757690
07-29-2011, 09:51 AM
He's 24, an age when many players are still in the minors learning their craft.

He's still has plenty of projection left.

Ryan Howards first full time seadon with the Phillies was when he was 26.

Votto was the same age when he had his rookie season with the Reds.

Good points, but I think that if you look at most player who have two full years under their belt in the majors by age 24, they don't improve much after 24.

Maybe Bruce will improve, but I don't think it will be by much. And to be clear, he's a really, really good player right now, a solid 5 win player, so it's not an insult to say he won't get much better.

MikeS21
07-29-2011, 09:54 AM
He's 24, an age when many players are still in the minors learning their craft.

He's still has plenty of projection left.

Ryan Howards first full time seadon with the Phillies was when he was 26.

Votto was the same age when he had his rookie season with the Reds.
A similar argument could be made for Homer Bailey. He's only 25, and most pitchers really don't hit their stride until they are 27-28 years old.

Yesterday was bad - downright awful. But before yesterday, Homer has been respectable. Every pitcher is going to have a bad game now and then. Even Price and Shields had terrible outings Tuesday and Wednesday. If Homer comes back and gives us 3-4 straight quality starts, will we still be as anxious to trade him?

I'll be honest. I have watched Shields pitch and I am not near as enamored with him as many folks are. I certainly do not see ace-like stuff or ace-like career numbers. I just see a pitcher who is having a career year this season. As someone said in an earlier post, Shields is good, but I wouldn't go so far as calling him an ace.

Kc61
07-29-2011, 09:59 AM
The only guy on the Reds who I wouldn't trade is Joey Votto. And next year, as his contract nears an end, I would have to consider a deal for him.

You cannot fall in love with players to the extent that they become untradable.

Some of this thread reads like the father of a daughter -- no guy is good enough for her.

Bruce is a good young player who is inconsistent. In the right deal, you have to consider a trade.

Having said that, obviously the Reds would have to get players who can upgrade the team. You don't trade guys like Bruce unless it is an upgrade. So I would be careful. I wouldn't trade him straight up for BJ Upton, for example.

RANDY IN INDY
07-29-2011, 10:14 AM
Right now, I wouldn't give the Rays a bag of balls for Upton.

CySeymour
07-29-2011, 10:20 AM
The only guy on the Reds who I wouldn't trade is Joey Votto. And next year, as his contract nears an end, I would have to consider a deal for him.

You cannot fall in love with players to the extent that they become untradable.

Some of this thread reads like the father of a daughter -- no guy is good enough for her.

Bruce is a good young player who is inconsistent. In the right deal, you have to consider a trade.

Having said that, obviously the Reds would have to get players who can upgrade the team. You don't trade guys like Bruce unless it is an upgrade. So I would be careful. I wouldn't trade him straight up for BJ Upton, for example.

:clap:

Redsfan320
07-29-2011, 10:34 AM
Not that it fits too well in this thread, but what would it take to get things started on Justin Upton? Just curious.

Even better- what would it take for an Upton Bros. package with TB and ARI.

320

Tony Cloninger
07-29-2011, 10:46 AM
I don't think there is anyway I would deal Bruce, I just think it sends an awful message. The Reds F.O. once upon a time dealt a guy who was aging a bit because they thought he was slowing down, it would be a mistake to deal a guy because you think this is who he is gonna be for good. Bruce's potential and willingness to be the face of the Reds is enough for me to make him the one guy I just couldn't let go of.

I can understand why someone might suggest no one is untouchable and there are currently more valuable guys out there but who knows if they would actually want to remain a Red if they were dealt there, that is one question we don't have to ask about Jay Bruce, don't screw that up.

Additionally let me add he's a GG defender, an excellent baserunner, a good power LHH and what's not to like about the man who I might also add is a tireless worker. He'll get his bat figured out and then he is as complete a player as there is in the league.


Are you talking about Frank Robinson in comparison?

Some of you people really do overrate this guy a little. I know he is a Reds farmhand and signed a cheaper deal but he is not even close to that comparison in any way shape or form.

You want to say Paul O'Niell ....then that I would agree with. And like Paul.....who seem to have a problem putting it together due to different reasons every year (One year he could barely hit LHP, another year he tried to hit more for power and suffered everywhere else)

Tony Cloninger
07-29-2011, 10:50 AM
Brock was an amazing steal, and from the Cubs too, making it all the sweeter.

Funny thing, the Morgan trade was very unpopular with the fans at the time. May and Helms were fan favorites and two of the teams better players, while Morgan was relatively unknown. I have a friend who to this day still thinks it was bad trade, although he also thinks Lee May is a first ballot Hall Of Famer. lol


Are you serious? Doe she think Mike Brown is a great owner as well?

BCubb2003
07-29-2011, 10:59 AM
Are you talking about Frank Robinson in comparison?

Some of you people really do overrate this guy a little. I know he is a Reds farmhand and signed a cheaper deal but he is not even close to that comparison in any way shape or form.

You want to say Paul O'Niell ....then that I would agree with. And like Paul.....who seem to have a problem putting it together due to different reasons every year (One year he could barely hit LHP, another year he tried to hit more for power and suffered everywhere else)

I agree. We love Bruce for the walk-off homer last year, and for May of this year, but I worry a little that we'll wait and wait for him to turn the corner and put it all together, and several years have gone by and it hasn't happened. I like him and hope he's close to breaking out, but I don't think he's untouchable by any means.

Tony Cloninger
07-29-2011, 11:07 AM
I agree. We love Bruce for the walk-off homer last year, and for May of this year, but I worry a little that we'll wait and wait for him to turn the corner and put it all together, and several years have gone by and it hasn't happened. I like him and hope he's close to breaking out, but I don't think he's untouchable by any means.

I certainly was not saying to trade him for Upton either....another "Wow what great tools he has" guy that basically is really not much better than Reggie Sanders to me as a hitter. I am sure someone could pull out more from him...maybe.

HokieRed
07-29-2011, 11:09 AM
Bruce ought to be as close to an untouchable as there is. He's a tremendous 24 year old player with great upside, a contract that's very advantageous to the organization, and great fan appeal. It would be absurd to trade him.

Homer Bailey
07-29-2011, 11:10 AM
Are you talking about Frank Robinson in comparison?

Some of you people really do overrate this guy a little. I know he is a Reds farmhand and signed a cheaper deal but he is not even close to that comparison in any way shape or form.

You want to say Paul O'Niell ....then that I would agree with. And like Paul.....who seem to have a problem putting it together due to different reasons every year (One year he could barely hit LHP, another year he tried to hit more for power and suffered everywhere else)

Paul O'Neill is nowhere close to a comp for Bruce. At Bruce's age, O'Neill had less than 200 PA's at the MLB level, and didn't put up a season comparable to Bruce's age 23 season until he was 28.

Homer Bailey
07-29-2011, 11:11 AM
Bruce ought to be as close to an untouchable as there is. He's a tremendous 24 year old player with great upside, a contract that's very advantageous to the organization, and great fan appeal. It would be absurd to trade him.

+1 x infinity

signalhome
07-29-2011, 11:13 AM
Bruce ought to be as close to an untouchable as there is. He's a tremendous 24 year old player with great upside, a contract that's very advantageous to the organization, and great fan appeal. It would be absurd to trade him.

I'm open to trading anyone for the right price, but yeah, it would take an unreasonably large haul for me to ship him away.

BCubb2003
07-29-2011, 11:14 AM
Bruce ought to be as close to an untouchable as there is. He's a tremendous 24 year old player with great upside, a contract that's very advantageous to the organization, and great fan appeal. It would be absurd to trade him.

I just don't know. I look at that offense we like to complain about and I see Phillips and Votto and a lot of missing pieces.

Tony Cloninger
07-29-2011, 11:14 AM
Paul O'Neill is nowhere close to a comp for Bruce. At Bruce's age, O'Neill had less than 200 PA's at the MLB level, and didn't put up a season comparable to Bruce's age 23 season until he was 28.

I was not just looking at his age but the full years he had already put in. Right now that is what Bruce has going for him.....besides his obvious talent...his age and how he would be in the minors at that age, how much better he is at this age compared to others. Great stuff and like I posted again previously to yours....never said I would trade him for Upton.

Homer Bailey
07-29-2011, 11:27 AM
I just don't know. I look at that offense we like to complain about and I see Phillips and Votto and a lot of missing pieces.

Wait. Do you think Phillips is a better offensive player than Bruce?


I was not just looking at his age but the full years he had already put in. Right now that is what Bruce has going for him.....besides his obvious talent...his age and how he would be in the minors at that age, how much better he is at this age compared to others. Great stuff and like I posted again previously to yours....never said I would trade him for Upton.

Who at his age is outperforming him? J. Upton, Stanton..... who else? (I don't follow the AL closely).

Caveat Emperor
07-29-2011, 11:33 AM
I agree. We love Bruce for the walk-off homer last year, and for May of this year, but I worry a little that we'll wait and wait for him to turn the corner and put it all together, and several years have gone by and it hasn't happened. I like him and hope he's close to breaking out, but I don't think he's untouchable by any means.

The one chink in Bruce's armor -- even when he was rocketing through the minor leagues -- was his suspect plate discipline. He never walked much in the minors, but still struck out a ton.

Still his MO now.

Without that ability to walk consistently, I don't know that Bruce will ever really "turn the corner" to become a superstar player.

Benihana
07-29-2011, 11:36 AM
Bruce ought to be as close to an untouchable as there is. He's a tremendous 24 year old player with great upside, a contract that's very advantageous to the organization, and great fan appeal. It would be absurd to trade him.

Agree with this.

In all seriousness, why is this still a thread? There is clearly no Bailey/Bruce trade, nor has it ever been suggested by a credible source. This is something I'd expect to see on the SunDeck (insert elitist accusations here).

BCubb2003
07-29-2011, 11:42 AM
Wait. Do you think Phillips is a better offensive player than Bruce?



This year, except for May, yes. Although Bruce seemed to be getting back on track a little this week.

Homer Bailey
07-29-2011, 11:43 AM
The one chink in Bruce's armor -- even when he was rocketing through the minor leagues -- was his suspect plate discipline. He never walked much in the minors, but still struck out a ton.

Still his MO now.

Without that ability to walk consistently, I don't know that Bruce will ever really "turn the corner" to become a superstar player.

Since when is a 10% walk rate "not having the ability to walk consistently?"

IslandRed
07-29-2011, 11:50 AM
Wait. Do you think Phillips is a better offensive player than Bruce?

In absolute terms, of course not. Looking at OPS relative to their positions, they're pretty much equals.

signalhome
07-29-2011, 12:03 PM
The one chink in Bruce's armor -- even when he was rocketing through the minor leagues -- was his suspect plate discipline. He never walked much in the minors, but still struck out a ton.

Still his MO now.

Without that ability to walk consistently, I don't know that Bruce will ever really "turn the corner" to become a superstar player.

A lack of walks was certainly a problem for Bruce coming up, but he has posted BB%s of 9.8, 10.1, and 10.4 the past three years. His plate discipline problems are a thing of the past.

Caveat Emperor
07-29-2011, 12:09 PM
A lack of walks was certainly a problem for Bruce coming up, but he has posted BB%s of 9.8, 10.1, and 10.4 the past three years. His plate discipline problems are a thing of the past.

Sure, he's not the free-swinger that he once was, but as I said -- for Bruce to "turn the corner" to superstardom, that walk rate will still need to go up. His K/BB still isn't where you'd want it to be for a guy with Bruce's power, IMO.

Tony Cloninger
07-29-2011, 12:19 PM
Wait. Do you think Phillips is a better offensive player than Bruce?



Who at his age is outperforming him? J. Upton, Stanton..... who else? (I don't follow the AL closely).

Not looking at this age. Someone wrote that in about 1500 AB's you have a good idea what you are getting......and he has over 1600. He looks like a player I would NOT Trade for Upton. Or Upton and Shields.

But he is not like Frank Robinson...which is what i was responding to. His comp shows him to be Willie Horton, Reggie Jackson and Pete Incaviglia.

he is not IMO the face of the franchise yet. That is Votto. Im am fine with that... I can hope that he will be in another year or 2. In another 3....I would hope he will be. He will still need help around him.

bucksfan2
07-29-2011, 01:33 PM
Not looking at this age. Someone wrote that in about 1500 AB's you have a good idea what you are getting......and he has over 1600. He looks like a player I would NOT Trade for Upton. Or Upton and Shields.

But he is not like Frank Robinson...which is what i was responding to. His comp shows him to be Willie Horton, Reggie Jackson and Pete Incaviglia.

he is not IMO the face of the franchise yet. That is Votto. Im am fine with that... I can hope that he will be in another year or 2. In another 3....I would hope he will be. He will still need help around him.

I am not sure why Bruce is treated around here like a sacred cow. He is a nice player but he isn't an MVP caliber player. When you look further into his numbers he had one awesome month with an OPS over 1.100, one pretty good month with an OPS of .830 and two pretty poor OPS months hovering around the .650 mark. He isn't the type of guy that I would build the team around. He is a nice player to have, even better that he has a good deal, but not a guy who I wouldn't hesitate to move if the right deal came around.

The troubling thing with Bruce is the development just hasn't been there. He isn't much different from the 09 version or the 10 version. He is a guy who when hot is Babe Ruth hot but when cold is pretty poor. There at bats when you wonder if he is even going to make contact. I think that the 1500 at bats is a pretty good baseline for what a player is going to become. He was only 23 last season, is only 24 this season, and will only be 25 next year and I fear we won't see the development that many had hoped for. Good player, but he sure as heck isn't Joey Votto good.

757690
07-29-2011, 01:39 PM
I am not sure why Bruce is treated around here like a sacred cow. He is a nice player but he isn't an MVP caliber player. When you look further into his numbers he had one awesome month with an OPS over 1.100, one pretty good month with an OPS of .830 and two pretty poor OPS months hovering around the .650 mark. He isn't the type of guy that I would build the team around. He is a nice player to have, even better that he has a good deal, but not a guy who I wouldn't hesitate to move if the right deal came around.

The troubling thing with Bruce is the development just hasn't been there. He isn't much different from the 09 version or the 10 version. He is a guy who when hot is Babe Ruth hot but when cold is pretty poor. There at bats when you wonder if he is even going to make contact. I think that the 1500 at bats is a pretty good baseline for what a player is going to become. He was only 23 last season, is only 24 this season, and will only be 25 next year and I fear we won't see the development that many had hoped for. Good player, but he sure as heck isn't Joey Votto good.

Very well put. No need to trade him, do what you can to keep him, but if you can improve the team by trading him, go for it.

I can't imagine a trade, that another team would want to make, that would include Votto, that would improve this team. Not so much with Bruce.

Homer Bailey
07-29-2011, 02:08 PM
Good player, but he sure as heck isn't Joey Votto good.

Sigh.

Billy Hamilton is a good player, but he sure as heck isn't Jay Bruce good.

(same approximate age gap between Hamilton and Bruce as Bruce and Votto).

And no one ever, ever, ever, ever said he was Joey Votto good. Doesn't change the fact that he's the second best position player on this team.

wolfboy
07-29-2011, 02:14 PM
Sigh.

Billy Hamilton is a good player, but he sure as heck isn't Jay Bruce good.

(same approximate age gap between Hamilton and Bruce as Bruce and Votto).

And no one ever, ever, ever, ever said he was Joey Votto good. Doesn't change the fact that he's the second best position player on this team.

Amen brother. If Joey Votto is the benchmark, most of baseball is failing to live up to expectations.

HokieRed
07-29-2011, 02:22 PM
Amen brother. If Joey Votto is the benchmark, most of baseball is failing to live up to expectations.

I'd point out that Joey Votto's OPS+ in his 24 year old season was 127, exactly the same as Jay Bruce's current mark.

bucksfan2
07-29-2011, 02:24 PM
Sigh.

Billy Hamilton is a good player, but he sure as heck isn't Jay Bruce good.

(same approximate age gap between Hamilton and Bruce as Bruce and Votto).

And no one ever, ever, ever, ever said he was Joey Votto good. Doesn't change the fact that he's the second best position player on this team.

Sigh.

You build around great players. You build around Joey Votto. You build around guys who are legit three hole hitters in your lineup.

I am not suggesting trading Bruce, just suggesting that if the right deal came along then I would do it.

I find it ironic that many more people are more willing to trade Votto than Bruce.

osuceltic
07-29-2011, 02:34 PM
I think with the rumors popping up of the Reds considering a "sell-a-thon" that Bruce is probably one of the names being discussed. Bailey too. Along with guys like Ramon and Cordero. Phillips? Maybe.

Homer Bailey
07-29-2011, 02:36 PM
Sigh.

You build around great players. You build around Joey Votto. You build around guys who are legit three hole hitters in your lineup.

I am not suggesting trading Bruce, just suggesting that if the right deal came along then I would do it.

I find it ironic that many more people are more willing to trade Votto than Bruce.

And as noted above, the "great" player you highlighted, Mr. Votto, had the same OPS+ during his age 24 season as Jay Bruce currently does (and nevermind the fact that 1B is a more offensively demanding position).

And the discussion around trading Votto/Bruce (althought there should be no discussion on it right now) is centered entirely around the contract issue.

Kc61
07-29-2011, 02:39 PM
Sigh.

You build around great players. You build around Joey Votto. You build around guys who are legit three hole hitters in your lineup.

I am not suggesting trading Bruce, just suggesting that if the right deal came along then I would do it.

I find it ironic that many more people are more willing to trade Votto than Bruce.


This is just an excellent post. Kudos, bucksfan.

You said it perfectly.

The Reds have one great player, Votto. They have a few good complimentary players.

They don't have any great pitchers. They have a couple of very good pitchers.

The Reds need more proven, top tier talent. It doesn't come cheap.

Fans, make up your minds. If you like rooting for the development of prospects, you go in one direction.

If you like winning with 3 or 4 top tier players and a good supporting cast, you go in another.

signalhome
07-29-2011, 02:48 PM
Sigh.

Billy Hamilton is a good player, but he sure as heck isn't Jay Bruce good.

(same approximate age gap between Hamilton and Bruce as Bruce and Votto).

And no one ever, ever, ever, ever said he was Joey Votto good. Doesn't change the fact that he's the second best position player on this team.


Amen brother. If Joey Votto is the benchmark, most of baseball is failing to live up to expectations.


I'd point out that Joey Votto's OPS+ in his 24 year old season was 127, exactly the same as Jay Bruce's current mark.

All excellent points. Also, sort of building what HokieRed said, 24-year-old Bruce's wRC+, which takes into account the league's offensive environment and is based on wOBA, is better than 24-year-old Votto's wRC+. Add in the positional adjustment (1B offensive numbers are less valuable than RF offensive numbers), as well as the fact that Bruce is much better with the glove, and I think it's a bit difficult to make the argument that Votto was more valuable than Bruce at 24 years of age. For all the arguments that Votto's plate discipline truly sets him apart from Bruce, that is true for the moment. However, at 24 years old, Votto's BB% was 10.0%; Bruce's is 10.4%. Bruce's plate discipline problems are a thing of the past, and he has improved in that aspect each of the past three years. I expect that trend to continue.

I'm not saying Bruce will ever be Votto; he probably won't. I'm just saying it's too early to say that he won't be, and that we seem to have a very unfair expectation of what numbers Bruce should be putting up at his current age.

757690
07-29-2011, 02:51 PM
You can't just consider age in understanding the development of a player. MLB experience is just as, if not more important.

Comparisons between Bruce at 24 and others at 24 are only meaningful if the other player had similar MLB experience up to that age.

Degenerate39
07-29-2011, 02:53 PM
NO way in hell do I trade Bruce.

Homer Bailey
07-29-2011, 03:05 PM
You can't just consider age in understanding the development of a player. MLB experience is just as, if not more important.

Comparisons between Bruce at 24 and others at 24 are only meaningful if the other player had similar MLB experience up to that age.

I'd love to hear the logic behind this? Bruce just stops improving against MLB pitching because he's been facing it for so long?

bucksfan2
07-29-2011, 03:14 PM
I'd love to hear the logic behind this? Bruce just stops improving against MLB pitching because he's been facing it for so long?

Has Bruce improved?

Homer Bailey
07-29-2011, 03:18 PM
Has Bruce improved?

Since being called up to the big leagues? Is that a serious question?

And my comment was made about going forward. The post I was responding to seemed to imply that because Bruce has faced MLB pitching the last 3+ years, that he was incable of improving.

757690
07-29-2011, 03:29 PM
I'd love to hear the logic behind this? Bruce just stops improving against MLB pitching because he's been facing it for so long?

Never said anything like that. I just said service time is just as important a factor in understanding development as age.

Look at true comps for Bruce. Most players who come up that young don't improve much after they reach Bruce's age.

He's had plenty of AB's to adjust to MLB pitching. He might turn the corner and become an MVP candidate, but the odds are against him.

After around 1500 AB's, most players are who they are, no matter their age.

Homer Bailey
07-29-2011, 04:22 PM
Never said anything like that. I just said service time is just as important a factor in understanding development as age.

Look at true comps for Bruce. Most players who come up that young don't improve much after they reach Bruce's age.

He's had plenty of AB's to adjust to MLB pitching. He might turn the corner and become an MVP candidate, but the odds are against him.

After around 1500 AB's, most players are who they are, no matter their age.

Do you have any evidence that supports this point? Not being a jerk, I'm just curious.

Caveat Emperor
07-29-2011, 04:57 PM
Do you have any evidence that supports this point? Not being a jerk, I'm just curious.

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/7976/why-jay-bruce-may-have-reached-his-peak

Ghosts of 1990
07-29-2011, 11:39 PM
I really think it's time to think about trading Jay Bruce. Bailey too, although he's not going to have any value whatsoever. It's more valuable to keep Bailey and try to recoup something from him.

Bruce is the same player he was when he was 21. Likable guy. But it's time to find someone else to build around. A Justin Upton type. Someone who is a true, young, middle of the order hitter.

If we wait two more seasons--the shark will have jumped.

I think it's unlikely he goes anywhere. Near 99% chance he goes nowhere. But looking back on this post years from now you'll say that we probably should of done it. It just doesn't seem to be working out for him here. And the perception around the league isn't that he's a player with a lot of holes just yet. We have got to see if we can get rid of him.

kaldaniels
07-29-2011, 11:41 PM
I really think it's time to think about trading Jay Bruce. Bailey too, although he's not going to have any value whatsoever. It's more valuable to keep Bailey and try to recoup something from him.

Bruce is the same player he was when he was 21. Likable guy. But it's time to find someone else to build around. A Justin Upton type. Someone who is a true, young, middle of the order hitter.

If we wait two more seasons--the shark will have jumped.

I think it's unlikely he goes anywhere. Near 99% chance he goes nowhere. But looking back on this post years from now you'll say that we probably should of done it. It just doesn't seem to be working out for him here. And the perception around the league isn't that he's a player with a lot of holes just yet. We have got to see if we can get rid of him.

Yes! Ghosts just ripped Jay Bruce. That means he is due! :beerme:

pahster
07-29-2011, 11:43 PM
I really think it's time to think about trading Jay Bruce. Bailey too, although he's not going to have any value whatsoever. It's more valuable to keep Bailey and try to recoup something from him.

Bruce is the same player he was when he was 21. Likable guy. But it's time to find someone else to build around. A Justin Upton type. Someone who is a true, young, middle of the order hitter.

If we wait two more seasons--the shark will have jumped.

I think it's unlikely he goes anywhere. Near 99% chance he goes nowhere. But looking back on this post years from now you'll say that we probably should of done it. It just doesn't seem to be working out for him here. And the perception around the league isn't that he's a player with a lot of holes just yet. We have got to see if we can get rid of him.

OPS+
Age 21: 97
Age 24: 127

Twenty four year old Bruce is a very different (read: better) hitter than 21 year old Bruce and it's not even close.

cincrazy
07-30-2011, 12:11 AM
I really think it's time to think about trading Jay Bruce. Bailey too, although he's not going to have any value whatsoever. It's more valuable to keep Bailey and try to recoup something from him.

Bruce is the same player he was when he was 21. Likable guy. But it's time to find someone else to build around. A Justin Upton type. Someone who is a true, young, middle of the order hitter.

If we wait two more seasons--the shark will have jumped.

I think it's unlikely he goes anywhere. Near 99% chance he goes nowhere. But looking back on this post years from now you'll say that we probably should of done it. It just doesn't seem to be working out for him here. And the perception around the league isn't that he's a player with a lot of holes just yet. We have got to see if we can get rid of him.

Justin Upton has had the same ups and downs Bruce has had in his young career. That would be a lateral move, perhaps even a downgrade. Bruce has yet to find the consistency to be a true star. But it's not his fault this team has relied on him to be such a star since the day he was brought up. Be patient with him. The last elite RF we weren't patient with (Paul O'Neill) made our franchise look quite silly in the long run.

WVPacman
07-30-2011, 12:19 AM
Upton is the guy that I have seen twice just jog after a ball after it gets by him and goes to the fence.I think the manager even took him out of the game after that if im not mistaken.Atleast Bruce does hustle out in the field and runs a ball down when it gets by him.Trading Bruce for upton would be a huge gamble if you ask me.How old is Upton?

Ghosts of 1990
07-30-2011, 12:56 AM
Upton is the guy that I have seen twice just jog after a ball after it gets by him and goes to the fence.I think the manager even took him out of the game after that if im not mistaken.Atleast Bruce does hustle out in the field and runs a ball down when it gets by him.Trading Bruce for upton would be a huge gamble if you ask me.How old is Upton?

Upton is 23; has hit .300 once in his career (2009) and is having another similar season.

Upton has hit 3rd in the order every night now for three seasons. Bruce can't stay in the middle of our order--although I blame Dusty some for refusing to put him back in front of Votto just to get him going again.

But if Bruce would have been able to be consistent like Justin Upton, he would still be our clean up.

Nasty_Boy
07-30-2011, 01:18 AM
As long as Votto's hitting 3rd, Bruce won't hit cleanup... Can't hit 2 lefties in a row. It's one of Dusty's charter rules.

mth123
07-30-2011, 02:28 AM
Jay Bruce is a very good player. He's a stud on both offense and defense. He is very streaky though and goes through long periods where he doesn't help the team win much. He's a fine player and RF is a team strength with him out there.

The problem is that this team was built with enough holes, question marks and guys likely to regress that Bruce needed to step it up to MVP caliber to offset a lot of it. I had hopes that he would and he hasn't so from that point of view its disappointing, but it hardly makes him a bad player. Its not his fault that the team around him was left a little too thin. To deal him, the team would need an affordable centerpiece in return. The Reds don't need to be making quality for quantity deals. The team needs to do the opposite and deal quantity of depth for upgrades.

Big Klu
07-30-2011, 02:37 AM
As long as Votto's hitting 3rd, Bruce won't hit cleanup... Can't hit 2 lefties in a row. It's one of Dusty's charter rules.

Not true. Dusty moved Bruce into the #4 spot on May 31. He almost immediately went cold, and after three weeks Dusty eventually moved him back down to #5.

dougdirt
07-30-2011, 03:37 AM
Not true. Dusty moved Bruce into the #4 spot on May 31. He almost immediately went cold, and after three weeks Dusty eventually moved him back down to #5.

The question is, did he go cold because he was batting 4th, or did he just go cold because he was due to go cold?

I don't believe for a second that Bruce went cold because he was batting 4th instead of 5th.

Big Klu
07-30-2011, 04:10 AM
The question is, did he go cold because he was batting 4th, or did he just go cold because he was due to go cold?

I don't believe for a second that Bruce went cold because he was batting 4th instead of 5th.

I don't believe that, either. I think he got moved out of the #4 spot because he got cold, but I don't think that hitting #4 was the reason he got cold.

My comment was simply to illustrate that the belief that Dusty won't hit lefties back-to-back is a myth. Bruce isn't hitting fourth right now because he isn't producing like a #4 hitter should. I have no doubt that if Bruce is able to take the next step in his development, then he will be an option in the #4 spot for a long time--even if he does hit from the same side as Votto.

GAC
07-30-2011, 05:23 AM
Funny thing, the Morgan trade was very unpopular with the fans at the time. May and Helms were fan favorites and two of the teams better players, while Morgan was relatively unknown. I have a friend who to this day still thinks it was bad trade, although he also thinks Lee May is a first ballot Hall Of Famer. lol

Remember that trade like it was yesterday. I was a big May fan, and was thoroughly upset they traded him AT THE TIME. I wasn't too upset about losing Helms (weak bat).

I got to meet Lee May at Redsfest a couple years ago, and told him how bad I felt when they traded him. Closure. :laugh:

Mario-Rijo
07-30-2011, 09:07 AM
Are you talking about Frank Robinson in comparison?

Some of you people really do overrate this guy a little. I know he is a Reds farmhand and signed a cheaper deal but he is not even close to that comparison in any way shape or form.

You want to say Paul O'Niell ....then that I would agree with. And like Paul.....who seem to have a problem putting it together due to different reasons every year (One year he could barely hit LHP, another year he tried to hit more for power and suffered everywhere else)

I was comparing the situations of Robinson and Bruce not comparing the players. The Reds once misevaluated Robinson and if they think that Bruce isn't gonna improve I believe they are once again setting themselves up for disaster. Most players who are good at a young age and don't evolve either aren't willing or able to, I don't see Bruce as either of those. Most of his problems are fixable ones and Bruce is a guy who is both smart enough and willing enough to improve those things. He is still trying to yank everything which isn't uncommon in younger guys and his mechanics are still a bit out of whack often (but not always). Time and a little bit of work can fix both things if he is willing and I don't see any reason to believe he is not. Once O'Neill stopped being forced to do something he wasn't (being a pure power hitter) he got to his ceiling.

Team Clark
07-30-2011, 10:28 AM
The haul better be massive if so. I'm looking around for news now

Would be tough to part with Bailey. Upton for Bruce and Lecure. Absolutely