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View Full Version : Reds Rumor Central part 2- The sell-a-thon? The final 48 hours til the deadline.



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klw
07-29-2011, 03:21 PM
With the other thread over 900 posts and the new rumor of a possible sellathon, I thought a new thread may make sense.


From Jayson Stark
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/page/rumblings110729/ranking-mlb-trade-chips?campaign=rss&source=MLBHeadlines


Clubs that have spoken to the Reds report they're so discouraged by their four-game sweep by the Mets -- at home -- that they're strongly mulling a sell-a-thon, not a shopping spree. That might not apply to a player such as Jimenez, who is signed and under control through 2013. But if it's true, it's not a good development for a Rockies team that appeared to have targeted the Reds as a potentially perfect fit.

Meanwhile there are rumors of the Reds being in on Pence, Bourn, Quentin, Ludwick, Upton Sinclair (just seeing if you were paying attention, Shields and Joe Morgan.

klw
07-29-2011, 03:26 PM
Jon Morosi chiming in
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/MLB-trade-deadline-Cincinnati-Reds-need-to-be-sellers-072811
His piece is mostly an evaluation of where the Reds stand and throws out some suggestions as opposed to saying these are actual rumors.




One easy move: Jocketty should be able to procure a good prospect by finding a new home for veteran catcher Ramon Hernandez, who is having a productive year and is due only $1 million for the remainder of the season.

And maybe it’s time to trade Stubbs in order to acquire a true leadoff man like Houston’s Michael Bourn, who won’t become a free agent until after next season.

As extreme as this may sound, Jocketty might be wise to see if there’s any interest in a Cueto blockbuster. Like Jimenez, he has an affordable long-term contract. If Jimenez and Tampa Bay’s James Shields stay put, maybe Jocketty could stun everyone in baseball by exacting a big prospect bounty from the Yankees.

That’s highly unlikely. It would be very un-Castellini-like to take that sort of approach. But the Reds need to be creative and introspective right now. They are following one outstanding year with a disappointing one. It’s time for them to figure out which one is closer to their true identity.

Brutus
07-29-2011, 03:34 PM
If Morosi's contention is that the Reds should start selling off their core players for "prospects" just because they're having a bad year, I think that's silly logic. It took 15 years for the Reds to be back in the playoffs and have a good young core. They should not be selling off said core for prospects just because this season hasn't lived up to expectations.

I'm not against trading a Bruce or Cueto, but only if it's going to make them better the next 2-3 years with established, up-and-coming players.

Caveat Emperor
07-29-2011, 03:37 PM
If you're going to stun the world with a deal, the deal to stun with is sending Joey Votto somewhere, not Johnny Cueto. Votto has an in-house replacement, and is probably too expensive to sign long-term even if he were willing to do so.

757690
07-29-2011, 03:38 PM
A "sell-a-thon" that gets rid of players who probably won't help in 2112 makes sense. Selling in order to rebuild is just about the dumbest thing the Reds could do.

osuceltic
07-29-2011, 03:39 PM
If you're going to stun the world with a deal, the deal to stun with is sending Joey Votto somewhere, not Johnny Cueto. Votto has an in-house replacement, and is probably too expensive to sign long-term even if he were willing to do so.

I've been opposed to this, but if it's the right return, I'm grudgingly starting to accept it. We may be selling high on Votto. If last year was the best he's ever going to be (fantastic), and if this year is where he's settling (still great, but not as great), then right now is the time.

kaldaniels
07-29-2011, 03:40 PM
If you're going to stun the world with a deal, the deal to stun with is sending Joey Votto somewhere, not Johnny Cueto. Votto has an in-house replacement, and is probably too expensive to sign long-term even if he were willing to do so.

Which is better?

1) Joey Votto at 1B, with all indications he is gone after 2013

2) Yonder Alonso at 1B (he's here for 6 more years if we want)
A few top-tier prospects...really top tier
An extra 26 Million or so to spend over the next 2 years

It's debatable.

Homer Bailey
07-29-2011, 03:41 PM
Ah yes, the whole "true lead off hitter" thing. Stubbs in a deal for Bourn. Makes tons of sense. Stubbs, still not approaching arbitration, for a guy with less power, is more expensive, is a free agent 3 years earlier than Stubbs, and has roughly the same OBP skills.

I swear, these "journalists" just write this stuff to get clicks.

traderumor
07-29-2011, 03:43 PM
To read the conjectures about how the Reds FO "feels," Walt must be bipolar. He's staying the course while the team is floundering, but now an unexpected nosedive is going to send him into a tailspin?

It's always interesting to see the media trying to conjecture how a FO must be feeling, then try to spin it likes its inside information.

Caveat Emperor
07-29-2011, 03:43 PM
Which is better?

1) Joey Votto at 1B, with all indications he is gone after 2013

2) Yonder Alonso at 1B (he's here for 6 more years if we want)
A few top-tier prospects...really top tier
An extra 26 Million or so to spend over the next 2 years

It's debatable.

I'll take Number 2 100 times out of 100.

Really, this is a simple question for the Reds: Are you willing to fork over the cash to pay Votto like an MVP-level 1B when his contract comes due (or before that, via a re-worked deal)?

If not, you should be actively listening to anyone who is willing to sell the farm for a big-time bat.

Brutus
07-29-2011, 03:45 PM
Ah yes, the whole "true lead off hitter" thing. Stubbs in a deal for Bourn. Makes tons of sense. Stubbs, still not approaching arbitration, for a guy with less power, is more expensive, is a free agent 3 years earlier than Stubbs, and has roughly the same OBP skills.

I swear, these "journalists" just write this stuff to get clicks.

Bourn has a better OPS than Stubbs right now by 40 points which is described completely by the 39-point difference in OBP (something the Reds dearly lack at the top of the order).

Frankly, Bourn makes the Reds a better team right now than does Stubbs (as evidenced Bourn has a 3.7 WAR compared to 2.6 for Stubbs).

I'm not sure why this is such a strange concept. If you ask me, it's actually a worthwhile idea to consider. Bourn is a better player at this point in time.

Kc61
07-29-2011, 03:46 PM
Which is better?

1) Joey Votto at 1B, with all indications he is gone after 2013

2) Yonder Alonso at 1B (he's here for 6 more years if we want)
A few top-tier prospects...really top tier
An extra 26 Million or so to spend over the next 2 years

It's debatable.

It depends.

If you are a real team you keep Votto at all costs and you go out and get a couple of truly excellent teammates for him.

If you are not a real team, you trade Votto for prospects right now, get some good ones, and start another round of "breaking them in".

I think the Reds want to be a real team. Whether they have the money and willingness to do so will soon be apparent.

Caveat Emperor
07-29-2011, 03:46 PM
To read the conjectures about how the Reds FO "feels," Walt must be bipolar. He's staying the course while the team is floundering, but now an unexpected nosedive is going to send him into a tailspin?

It's always interesting to see the media trying to conjecture how a FO must be feeling, then try to spin it likes its inside information.

My uninformed guess:

Bob is issuing marching orders to go for the big deal (keep up the winning, keep the turnstiles moving as the NFL comes back to eat up local sports dollars).

Walt and his baseball people realize that the season is shot and they had best set to making something of it.

Hence, the mixed signals coming from the Reds FO. People close to the ownership say "we're in full-on go mode," people close to the baseball ops side are a little more bearish.

757690
07-29-2011, 03:46 PM
They are following one outstanding year with a disappointing one. It’s time for them to figure out which one is closer to their true identity.

Really, really ignorant and stupid statement. Completely ignores the depth of talent tnroughout the organization, especially the prospects who will likely improve the team next year, if not sooner.

Brutus
07-29-2011, 03:47 PM
I'll take Number 2 100 times out of 100.

Really, this is a simple question for the Reds: Are you willing to fork over the cash to pay Votto like an MVP-level 1B when his contract comes due (or before that, via a re-worked deal)?

If not, you should be actively listening to anyone who is willing to sell the farm for a big-time bat.

IMHO Yonder Alonso is not going to live up to expectations. I wouldn't be dealing Votto (at least yet) unless I'm more sure of Alonso and certain Votto is not going to sign long-term.

The time to trade Votto should not be until next year, provided he won't show some willingness to sign beyond arbitration.

Kc61
07-29-2011, 03:47 PM
Bourn has a better OPS than Stubbs right now by 40 points which is described completely by the 39-point difference in OBP (something the Reds dearly lack at the top of the order).

Frankly, Bourn makes the Reds a better team right now than does Stubbs (as evidenced Bourn has a 3.7 WAR compared to 2.6 for Stubbs).

I'm not sure why this is such a strange concept. If you ask me, it's actually a worthwhile idea to consider. Bourn is a better player at this point in time.

But we like Stubbs. He is our guy. He may be very good some day.

IslandRed
07-29-2011, 03:47 PM
Wouldn't be surprised to see the Reds buy and sell both. Jocketty's always had an affinity for using the trade deadline to start building next year's team if what he wants is on the market, e.g. Rolen.

But I don't see them doing any kind of blowup. Just a reconfiguring. There's no reason the club can't expect to contend next year.

Caveat Emperor
07-29-2011, 03:49 PM
Really, really ignorant and stupid statement. Completely ignores the depth of talent tnroughout the organization, especially the prospects who will likely improve the team next year, if not sooner.

Wasn't that what the Reds were banking on this year? Depth of talent and young players improving? Didn't work out so hot.

Dan
07-29-2011, 03:56 PM
If you're going to stun the world with a deal, the deal to stun with is sending Joey Votto somewhere, not Johnny Cueto. Votto has an in-house replacement, and is probably too expensive to sign long-term even if he were willing to do so.

This is what I would do.

Votto and Wood to the Blue Jays for Lind, Lawrie, and Thames
Razor to the Giants for Adam Duvall.

PuffyPig
07-29-2011, 03:57 PM
Bourn has a better OPS than Stubbs right now by 40 points which is described completely by the 39-point difference in OBP (something the Reds dearly lack at the top of the order).

Frankly, Bourn makes the Reds a better team right now than does Stubbs (as evidenced Bourn has a 3.7 WAR compared to 2.6 for Stubbs).

I'm not sure why this is such a strange concept. If you ask me, it's actually a worthwhile idea to consider. Bourn is a better player at this point in time.

Let's assume that "right now" he makes us better?

Does he next year, when he costs quite bit more than Stubbs, and may not even be a better player.


And in the years that follow, when he gone as a FA, he certainly isn't more valuable to us than Stubbs.

When you consdier all the factors, Stubbs has a huge amount of trade value more than Bourne.

Homer Bailey
07-29-2011, 04:00 PM
Bourn has a better OPS than Stubbs right now by 40 points which is described completely by the 39-point difference in OBP (something the Reds dearly lack at the top of the order).

Frankly, Bourn makes the Reds a better team right now than does Stubbs (as evidenced Bourn has a 3.7 WAR compared to 2.6 for Stubbs).

I'm not sure why this is such a strange concept. If you ask me, it's actually a worthwhile idea to consider. Bourn is a better player at this point in time.

Since the beginning of last season, Bourn has out WAR'd Stubbs by about 2 wins, and thats with an inflated BABIP (edit: actually, his BABIP over the last two years isn't far off from his career BABIP). And he's a free agent 3 years before Stubbs. And he's of no benefit to a team that is out of the race this year.

So we'd sacrifice 3 years of Stubbs, for a more expensive player, who is a marginal upgrade (if at all, going forward) over Stubbs, with all hopes on the 2012 season?

That is why it's a strange concept. It makes no sense.

kaldaniels
07-29-2011, 04:04 PM
This is what I would do.

Votto and Wood to the Blue Jays for Lind, Lawrie, and Thames
Razor to the Giants for Adam Duvall.

I'd want more than that for Votto alone. "Want" being the key word, as that deal probably does make the Reds better.

Will M
07-29-2011, 04:06 PM
I'd want more than that for Votto alone. "Want" being the key word, as that deal probably does make the Reds better.

Votto & Arroyo for the same haul?

bucksfan2
07-29-2011, 04:08 PM
Which is better?

1) Joey Votto at 1B, with all indications he is gone after 2013

2) Yonder Alonso at 1B (he's here for 6 more years if we want)
A few top-tier prospects...really top tier
An extra 26 Million or so to spend over the next 2 years

It's debatable.

Since 1990 the Reds have had two MVP Caliber player in their everyday lineup. One was Barry Larkin and the other was Joey Votto. You could make an argument for Ken Griffey Jr. in 2000 but otherwise he wasn't as advertised.

You are making a HUGE assumption that Alonso can hold down the 1b job at a reasonable level and also that the prospects you get in return don't flame out. The odds that any of the prospects turn out to be good to great players is pretty low.

I take Joey Votto, the next 2 plus years with exclusive negotiation rights over any type of prospect deal. There are very few players that I would trade Votto for and they tend to be named Tulo or King Felix or Albert. And from everything I have heard Votto hasn't expressed any desire not to play in Cincy. You have been banging this drum for a while now, do you have any proof that he doesn't want to remain a Red?

IslandRed
07-29-2011, 04:10 PM
Perhaps they've decided Stubbs' flaws are set in concrete and he's not going to be any better than what he is. Now, he's still a good center fielder with value. And he should be hitting lower in the order, not leadoff. Problem is, we have a legion of guys who best profile as 6-hole hitters and it's not a terrible idea to flip one of them for the actual leadoff guy we don't even remotely have. Bourn wouldn't be my first target due to only being signed through 2012, but purely as a concept, I'm not opposed.

kaldaniels
07-29-2011, 04:11 PM
Since 1990 the Reds have had two MVP Caliber player in their everyday lineup. One was Barry Larkin and the other was Joey Votto. You could make an argument for Ken Griffey Jr. in 2000 but otherwise he wasn't as advertised.

You are making a HUGE assumption that Alonso can hold down the 1b job at a reasonable level and also that the prospects you get in return don't flame out. The odds that any of the prospects turn out to be good to great players is pretty low.

I take Joey Votto, the next 2 plus years with exclusive negotiation rights over any type of prospect deal. There are very few players that I would trade Votto for and they tend to be named Tulo or King Felix or Albert. And from everything I have heard Votto hasn't expressed any desire not to play in Cincy. You have been banging this drum for a while now, do you have any proof that he doesn't want to remain a Red?

Believe me, I'm not assuming anything. Just stating a debate could be had and laying out the framework.

kaldaniels
07-29-2011, 04:13 PM
Since 1990 the Reds have had two MVP Caliber player in their everyday lineup. One was Barry Larkin and the other was Joey Votto. You could make an argument for Ken Griffey Jr. in 2000 but otherwise he wasn't as advertised.

You are making a HUGE assumption that Alonso can hold down the 1b job at a reasonable level and also that the prospects you get in return don't flame out. The odds that any of the prospects turn out to be good to great players is pretty low.

I take Joey Votto, the next 2 plus years with exclusive negotiation rights over any type of prospect deal. There are very few players that I would trade Votto for and they tend to be named Tulo or King Felix or Albert. And from everything I have heard Votto hasn't expressed any desire not to play in Cincy. You have been banging this drum for a while now, do you have any proof that he doesn't want to remain a Red?

Ahh the "banging the drum" accusation. A RedsZone classic.

Although it is important obviously if Votto wants to be a Red long term, I just don't think the numbers can be crunched so that the Reds can afford him.

cincyinco
07-29-2011, 04:16 PM
Travis Wood scratched from tonight's start? Impending move coming? Bracing myself for the worst. ;)

kaldaniels
07-29-2011, 04:16 PM
Votto & Arroyo for the same haul?

There is certainly risk to be had with any trade. So of course a trade such as this could potentially be feast or famine for either side. I know the pros and cons of this one. But if you don't think Arroyo is gonna get his velocity back, a move like this would be the one way to wipe your hands of him.

signalhome
07-29-2011, 04:17 PM
Ahh the "banging the drum" accusation. A RedsZone classic.

Although it is important obviously if Votto wants to be a Red long term, I just don't think the numbers can be crunched so that the Reds can afford him.

This is a lot more important than any desire Votto may or may not have to play in Cincinnati. He's not going to take a $15 million a year deal to stay in Cincinnati, no matter how much he wants to stay there. It would be borderline foolish of him to turn down so much more money just to stay in Cincy. It's possible the Reds could get a bit of a discount, but it's really hard for the Reds to pay one single player the type of money that Votto would likely require and still field anything resembling a decent team.

klw
07-29-2011, 04:19 PM
Travis Wood scratched from tonight's start? Impending move coming? Bracing myself for the worst. ;)

No Heisey or Alonso in the Reds lineup.

johngalt
07-29-2011, 04:19 PM
It'd be very easy for the Reds to sell off pieces like Hernandez, Cordero, Fred Lewis (lefty bat off bench for a playoff team), or even a Bill Bray and still make a play for a big starter like Jimenez or Shields to show that you're not rebuilding just making some changes.

batsfan
07-29-2011, 04:21 PM
No Heisey or Alonso in the Reds lineup.

So we haven't traded Dusty...

Boss-Hog
07-29-2011, 04:21 PM
It'd be very easy for the Reds to sell off pieces like Hernandez, Cordero, Fred Lewis (lefty bat off bench for a playoff team), or even a Bill Bray and still make a play for a big starter like Jimenez or Shields to show that you're not rebuilding just making some changes.

I hope that's what we see...I really do.

LoganBuck
07-29-2011, 04:22 PM
No Heisey or Alonso in the Reds lineup.

You know when I saw that, I was just mad at Dusty. But a package of Wood, Alonso, and Heisey would net something big.

smith288
07-29-2011, 04:23 PM
Watch them go to Houston and we get haunted by those three for 10+ yrs. Ugh.

forfreelin04
07-29-2011, 04:23 PM
So we haven't traded Dusty...

LOL! Why bring Alonso up if your not going to play him?

LoganBuck
07-29-2011, 04:24 PM
Jim Bowden chiming in via twitter


Reds Travis Wood has been scratched from his start @ Louisville tonight according to source....possible trade? or call-up? or? #TRADES

cincyinco
07-29-2011, 04:24 PM
Haha.. I thought this was interesting.. But I am certain its nothing..

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2452791&postcount=4

OnBaseMachine
07-29-2011, 04:25 PM
I hope that's what we see...I really do.

I agree.

LoganBuck
07-29-2011, 04:26 PM
Haha.. I thought this was interesting.. But I am certain its nothing..

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2452791&postcount=4

I would give GADawg permission to run through the streets naked if that was true.

kaldaniels
07-29-2011, 04:26 PM
Haha.. I thought this was interesting.. But I am certain its nothing..

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2452791&postcount=4

This is the scary one

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2452780&postcount=1

CySeymour
07-29-2011, 04:26 PM
I would give GADawg permission to run through the streets naked if that was true.

NOOOOOOO!!!!

Caveat Emperor
07-29-2011, 04:27 PM
Does anyone know if Mesoraco is in L'Ville's lineup as well?

HotCorner
07-29-2011, 04:27 PM
This is the scary one

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2452780&postcount=1

Could be unpopular for M's fans? ;)

Caveat Emperor
07-29-2011, 04:28 PM
False alarm:

http://twitter.com/#!/m_sheldon/status/97025193045798912

Wood now pitching tomorrow for L'Ville. Maloney tonight-- RT @jackbooth27: any word on why Wood is scratched from his start tonight? Trade?

OnBaseMachine
07-29-2011, 04:29 PM
From Jon Heyman:

reeling #reds going hard for bourn, as @Ken_Rosenthal reported. price set by #astros said to be high. #tradedeadline

http://twitter.com/SI_JonHeyman

HotCorner
07-29-2011, 04:30 PM
From Jon Heyman:

reeling #reds going hard for bourn, as @Ken_Rosenthal reported. price set by #astros said to be high. #tradedeadline

http://twitter.com/SI_JonHeyman

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

cincyinco
07-29-2011, 04:36 PM
A Bourn trade if the price is high? Reeks of desperation..

Matt700wlw
07-29-2011, 04:38 PM
Somethings a brewin...

Brutus
07-29-2011, 04:40 PM
Since the beginning of last season, Bourn has out WAR'd Stubbs by about 2 wins, and thats with an inflated BABIP (edit: actually, his BABIP over the last two years isn't far off from his career BABIP). And he's a free agent 3 years before Stubbs. And he's of no benefit to a team that is out of the race this year.

So we'd sacrifice 3 years of Stubbs, for a more expensive player, who is a marginal upgrade (if at all, going forward) over Stubbs, with all hopes on the 2012 season?

That is why it's a strange concept. It makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense if you're trying to upgrade the lineup.

Worrying about having Stubbs for 3-4 more years is a sign that we're not trying to put the best possible team on the field right now. I understand the contract aspect of it, and I'm not saying there's nothing to it. But I think you're taking too much of Stubbs' potential into account rather than what he is right now.

And make no mistake... I think Stubbs, even now, is a good CF. But until/unless these strikeouts come down into our stratosphere, this is what he is and will be going forward. Bourn is just two years older (though I realize he's much further along in the contract stage) and has showed signs of improving the last few years.

I just think in terms of 2012, Bourn is a better option for what the Reds need. They clearly do not have a high-OBP guy in the lineup to score runs ahead of Votto. Bourn would be that kind of guy.

I'm not gung-ho about trading Stubbs, but if it were for a package such as this, I'd do it and not look back.

LoganBuck
07-29-2011, 04:46 PM
Somethings a brewin...

Hear something?

LoganBuck
07-29-2011, 04:50 PM
It makes perfect sense if you're trying to upgrade the lineup.

Worrying about having Stubbs for 3-4 more years is a sign that we're not trying to put the best possible team on the field right now. I understand the contract aspect of it, and I'm not saying there's nothing to it. But I think you're taking too much of Stubbs' potential into account rather than what he is right now.

And make no mistake... I think Stubbs, even now, is a good CF. But until/unless these strikeouts come down into our stratosphere, this is what he is and will be going forward. Bourn is just two years older (though I realize he's much further along in the contract stage) and has showed signs of improving the last few years.

I just think in terms of 2012, Bourn is a better option for what the Reds need. They clearly do not have a high-OBP guy in the lineup to score runs ahead of Votto. Bourn would be that kind of guy.

I'm not gung-ho about trading Stubbs, but if it were for a package such as this, I'd do it and not look back.

I said this a couple days ago. The Reds need to change the mix. It isn't an indictment of any particular player, the parts just don't mesh together well. This team needs a retooling.

Stubbs is a fine player, but his skill set isn't especially useful for this team, as currently constructed. He isn't a middle of the order masher, and he isn't a leadoff guy. Someone aptly pointed out that the Red seemingly have 4, 6 and 7 hole hitters.

Same thing with Heisey, I don't think of him any differently than Stubbs. They are useful and redundant.

kaldaniels
07-29-2011, 04:54 PM
MLB Network says Wood starting at GABP tommorrow.

The Voice of IH
07-29-2011, 04:55 PM
This will not be ok. I am going on strike if Mike Leake is traded.

cincyinco
07-29-2011, 04:56 PM
This will not be ok. I am going on strike if Mike Leake is traded.

I know you would be disheartened..

I am not opposed to moving Leake.. unless its for Bourn. Then I'll be upset too.. ;)

Brutus
07-29-2011, 04:58 PM
The Astros were said today to want starting pitching if they deal Pence (or anyone). That's one reason the Phillies haven't struck a deal.

So my hunch here is that the Reds are about to acquire Bourn and either Wandy or Pence in a deal that includes Leake.

HokieRed
07-29-2011, 04:58 PM
MLB Network says Wood starting at GABP tommorrow.

I don't want to see Leake dealt, but I like this. Wood needs to learn to pitch. Now if we could just get Chapman into the rotation. Maybe the sell a thon will do it.

batsfan
07-29-2011, 04:59 PM
I know you would be disheartened..

I am not opposed to moving Leake.. unless its for Bourn. Then I'll be upset too.. ;)

If Leake for Bourn is the unpopular trade that is rumored to be announced soon, then I will be very, very happy. But pretty much any version of the unpopular trade will relieve me if Bruce is not included...

mdccclxix
07-29-2011, 05:00 PM
I'm hearing:

Stubbs
Leake
Boxberger
Ondrusek
Maloney

For Ken Griffey Jr.

Caveat Emperor
07-29-2011, 05:01 PM
I'm really not thrilled with Pence or Bourn to begin with -- the idea of giving up cheap, young and improving (albeit with lightfingered tendencies) major league pitching to get either one of them makes my stomach turn.

RedLegSuperStar
07-29-2011, 05:01 PM
I'm hearing:

Stubbs
Leake
Boxberger
Ondrusek
Maloney

For Ken Griffey Jr.

You mean Nick Masset?

kaldaniels
07-29-2011, 05:02 PM
Fay tweeted the Wood report is wrong.

dougdirt
07-29-2011, 05:02 PM
I'm really not thrilled with Pence or Bourn to begin with -- the idea of giving up cheap, young and improving (albeit with lightfingered tendencies) major league pitching to get either one of them makes my stomach turn.

Agreed.

Brutus
07-29-2011, 05:03 PM
Fay tweeted the Wood report is wrong.

Actually, to be specific, he said it was wrong that Maloney was going tonight for the Reds and Wood tomorrow.

It's possible he was referring to the Maloney part.

kaldaniels
07-29-2011, 05:06 PM
Actually, to be specific, he said it was wrong that Maloney was going tonight for the Reds and Wood tomorrow.

It's possible he was referring to the Maloney part.

That is true I see that.

Brutus
07-29-2011, 05:06 PM
We're all assuming the Reds are trading Leake to the Astros, but for all we know, he could be included in a deal for Ubaldo or Shields.

Red Leader
07-29-2011, 05:09 PM
It's being reported that Hunter Pence is in the starting lineup for the Astros, so he's likely not involved in any deals nearing completion.

kaldaniels
07-29-2011, 05:09 PM
The Wood thread is speculating MLB network just screwed the report up and Wood will start for the Bats tommorrow.

mdccclxix
07-29-2011, 05:10 PM
It's being reported that Hunter Pence is in the starting lineup for the Astros, so he's likely not involved in any deals nearing completion.

Their leveraging, their leveraging!

#tradedeadlineinsanity

kaldaniels
07-29-2011, 05:11 PM
Someone fire up the Batsignal for cinreds21.

cincyinco
07-29-2011, 05:13 PM
"We're happy with what we have..."

Gomes will be the only deal done by the Non Waiver deadline ;)

CarolinaRedleg
07-29-2011, 05:13 PM
Jim_In_Cincy, the one who alluded to an unpopular trade announcement is now hinting at Upton

http://twitter.com/#!/Jim_in_Cincy/status/97036447516860417

Brutus
07-29-2011, 05:15 PM
I would like Upton, though not at the expense of Leake if that's the case. Perhaps Wood isn't replacing Leake but simply will be in a deal for Upton.

mdccclxix
07-29-2011, 05:17 PM
Buster_ESPN Buster Olney
Cincinnati now in the same mode as Diamondbacks: If they make deals, it'll be for players who help in '12, '13, as well as 2011.#trades

mdccclxix
07-29-2011, 05:18 PM
I have to think Stubbs is on the block somewhat - all these CF's in the rumors. I can see why, he's a bit on an enigma, although the Reds traded Cameron and that didn't work out. I kind of believe Stubbs will just keep producing power and speed for a long time. Not really too sure I like this unless we're getting an ace type pitcher for 2-3+ years, or an amazing bat to clean up.

IslandRed
07-29-2011, 05:22 PM
"Unpopular trade announcement" could be as simple as moving Ramon Hernandez for a prospect. That wouldn't surprise most of us here, but the rank-and-file fan would see that as a white flag.

RANDY IN INDY
07-29-2011, 05:22 PM
Not a big fan of trading Stubbs.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-29-2011, 05:22 PM
If they traded for Bourne, but kept Stubbs, which one plays LF?

I guess I'd have to say Stubbs. That would be the best defensive OF in baseball.

klw
07-29-2011, 05:25 PM
I'm hearing:

Stubbs
Leake
Boxberger
Ondrusek
Maloney

For Ken Griffey Jr.

Just as long as Pokey is off the table.

fearofpopvol1
07-29-2011, 05:31 PM
Bourn isn't a bad target, but for me, it sounds like the price is way too high.

Brutus
07-29-2011, 05:33 PM
Bourn isn't a bad target, but for me, it sounds like the price is way too high.

From what I gather, the Astros were the ones that were trying to move him. I had not seen a lot of teams connected to him in trade talks, so I think realistically it won't take a ton to acquire. I could be wrong, but just don't sense it will require too much.

Benihana
07-29-2011, 05:36 PM
Is there any merit to any of these Twitter accounts that are being linked to?

Why should we believe jim_in_cincy or jonathan_smith28 or whats_his_face? Have they proven any insider connections before?

klw
07-29-2011, 05:39 PM
Reds want pitching for C Ramon Hernandez. As one Giants honcho put it, "That, we got a lot of."

http://twitter.com/#!/hankschulman/status/97032626019385344
Henry Schulman
@hankschulman
Giants beat writer, San Francisco Chronicle

redsmetz
07-29-2011, 05:43 PM
http://twitter.com/#!/hankschulman/status/97032626019385344
Henry Schulman
@hankschulman
Giants beat writer, San Francisco Chronicle

Followed by:

Zito for Hernandez? Is Twitter hosting a hallucinogenic mushroom festival?

mdccclxix
07-29-2011, 05:52 PM
Is there any merit to any of these Twitter accounts that are being linked to?

Why should we believe jim_in_cincy or jonathan_smith28 or whats_his_face? Have they proven any insider connections before?

No. At this point Johnny Smith is a fraud. And anyone can say, "I have it on good authority there is an unpopular trade coming." What trade isn't unpopular in some respects?

dougdirt
07-29-2011, 05:54 PM
No. At this point Johnny Smith is a fraud. And anyone can say, "I have it on good authority there is an unpopular trade coming." What trade isn't unpopular in some respects?

The one we are about to make where we trade Frank Pfister for Ubaldo Jiminez.

CarolinaRedleg
07-29-2011, 05:54 PM
Dontrelle scratched?

http://twitter.com/#!/TakeoSports/status/97046791152873473

dougdirt
07-29-2011, 05:55 PM
Dontrelle scratched?

http://twitter.com/#!/TakeoSports/status/97046791152873473

Strange. Jamie Ramsey just said 1 minute before that post that Willis WAS starting tonight.

I(heart)Freel
07-29-2011, 05:56 PM
Is it any wonder that the Reds are playing mindless baseball this week? I can't keep up with the IS starting/ISN'T starting tweets alone.

BearcatShane
07-29-2011, 05:59 PM
Who about to start tonight, man? Lecure?

redsfaninbsg
07-29-2011, 06:03 PM
This team is spiraling out of control faster than the United States Congress.

Reds Fanatic
07-29-2011, 06:04 PM
so far I have found no one else reporting that Willis is not starting

The Voice of IH
07-29-2011, 06:05 PM
hankschulman Henry Schulman
by LanceMcAlister
Dontrelle is pitching tonight. Somebody misread a Tweet

CySeymour
07-29-2011, 06:05 PM
Who about to start tonight, man? Lecure?

Janish? :D

IslandRed
07-29-2011, 06:05 PM
Probably just another person who got a wrong version of "Wood not starting tonight." Sheesh, it's like the old repeat-a-story game.

westofyou
07-29-2011, 06:07 PM
Twitter is not news when everyone floods it with misinformation, it just becomes noise.

Brutus
07-29-2011, 06:08 PM
Twitter is not news when everyone floods it with misinformation, it just becomes noise.

So true. The lines between reality and fantasy are too blurred sometimes to make heads from tails.

Or more aptly, heads from tales.

klw
07-29-2011, 06:09 PM
Is there any merit to any of these Twitter accounts that are being linked to?

Why should we believe jim_in_cincy or jonathan_smith28 or whats_his_face? Have they proven any insider connections before?

Well Jin in Cincy is claiming source says 3 team deal is imminent.

http://twitter.com/#!/Jim_in_Cincy

Brutus
07-29-2011, 06:11 PM
Well Jin in Cincy is claiming source says 3 team deal is imminent.

Got to admit... at least we can't say he's not going out on a limb lol

dougdirt
07-29-2011, 06:19 PM
m_sheldon Mark Sheldon (http://twitter.com/#!/m_sheldon/status/97052792912478208)
Story to come, but Jocketty said this: "We are not selling." #reds

Posturing or delusional? There is no reason the Reds shouldn't be "selling" Hernandez and Cordero right now.

Caveat Emperor
07-29-2011, 06:22 PM
Semantics.

They can trade Hernandez and say "we're clearing room for this excellent young player, not selling."

klw
07-29-2011, 06:22 PM
m_sheldon Mark Sheldon (http://twitter.com/#!/m_sheldon/status/97052792912478208)
Story to come, but Jocketty said this: "We are not selling." #reds

Posturing or delusional? There is no reason the Reds shouldn't be "selling" Hernandez and Cordero right now.

http://twitter.com/#!/johnfayman

johnfayman John Fay
Jocketty: We are not selling. #Reds
1 minute ago
Sheldon beat Fay by a solid half minute and was able to include quotation marks. How should we interpret Fay not including quotation marks????

Brutus
07-29-2011, 06:23 PM
Semantics.

They can trade Hernandez and say "we're clearing room for this excellent young player, not selling."

Yeah that's how I look at it. I don't think it's selling if one considers the pieces they're trading are to clear room for other talented players.

Since the Reds are trying to get better for 2012 and 2013... they don't necessarily have to view themselves as sellers to do that.

Matt700wlw
07-29-2011, 06:25 PM
Semantics.

They can trade Hernandez and say "we're clearing room for this excellent young player, not selling."

That Dusty won't play.

PuffyPig
07-29-2011, 06:25 PM
If they traded for Bourne, but kept Stubbs, which one plays LF?

I guess I'd have to say Stubbs. That would be the best defensive OF in baseball.


Stubbs would start in CF over Bourne, or pretty much anyone.

Plus, with Bourne a 1 year rental, may as well not upset the eventual system anyway.

757690
07-29-2011, 06:26 PM
m_sheldon Mark Sheldon (http://twitter.com/#!/m_sheldon/status/97052792912478208)
Story to come, but Jocketty said this: "We are not selling." #reds

Posturing or delusional? There is no reason the Reds shouldn't be "selling" Hernandez and Cordero right now.

Jockey's probably just letting fans know that they are committed to winning and not rebuilding.

camisadelgolf
07-29-2011, 06:26 PM
johnfayman John Fay
Jocketty: We're still within striking distance. We have a lot game left with the teams in front of us. . . We've had tough sked A-S Break

dougdirt
07-29-2011, 06:28 PM
Jockey's probably just letting fans know that they are committed to winning and not rebuilding.

Fan's are stupid. You aren't "rebuilding" by trading two free agents to be. Especially when one of them can be replaced by the best prospect in baseball at that position.

As for Cordero, I imagine most of the "fans" who he would be reassuring don't want Cordero closing anyways.

Dan
07-29-2011, 06:29 PM
m_sheldon Mark Sheldon (http://twitter.com/#!/m_sheldon/status/97052792912478208)
Story to come, but Jocketty said this: "We are not selling." #reds

Posturing or delusional? There is no reason the Reds shouldn't be "selling" Hernandez and Cordero right now.


johnfayman John Fay
Jocketty: We're still within striking distance. We have a lot game left with the teams in front of us. . . We've had tough sked A-S Break

Delusional.

They just lost big to teams they need to beat to get through the playoffs. Yes there's an easier schedule but...*sigh* I need a drink. :beerme:

Brutus
07-29-2011, 06:29 PM
Let's be honest, the Reds have only one guy with any value right now (Ramon) that isn't under contract for a couple years.

Cordero, Arroyo, etc.. these guys could only be given away for free given their contracts.

I don't think whether the Reds move Hernandez or not really makes much of a difference. They're not going to get one of the Giants' premo prospects for him.

camisadelgolf
07-29-2011, 06:32 PM
http://marksheldon.mlblogs.com/2011/07/29/hernandez-staying-put/

One of the players prominent in rumors of a sell has been catcher Ramon Hernandez, especially with top catching prospect Devin Mesoraco on the cusp at Triple-A Louisville. However, Jocketty said he has not listened to offers for Hernandez.

“I haven’t no, and I don’t know if I would,” Jocketty said. “I still think he’s a guy that can help us with this year. I think his value is greater to us now than if we were to move him. You’re not going to get the value in return for him that he gives our club. That’s why we would hold on to him.”

dougdirt
07-29-2011, 06:33 PM
Let's be honest, the Reds have only one guy with any value right now (Ramon) that isn't under contract for a couple years.

Cordero, Arroyo, etc.. these guys could only be given away for free given their contracts.

I don't think whether the Reds move Hernandez or not really makes much of a difference. They're not going to get one of the Giants' premo prospects for him.

Moving Cordero and Hernandez isn't about getting value back.

Moving Hernandez means getting Devin Mesoraco valuable playing time this year so when we have a chance to make the playoffs next year, he has fewer growing pains.

Moving Cordero probably saves you a little money. If you pay some of his contract, then you might get back someone who could help you next year (say a 7th inning reliever in return).

dougdirt
07-29-2011, 06:34 PM
http://marksheldon.mlblogs.com/2011/07/29/hernandez-staying-put/

One of the players prominent in rumors of a sell has been catcher Ramon Hernandez, especially with top catching prospect Devin Mesoraco on the cusp at Triple-A Louisville. However, Jocketty said he has not listened to offers for Hernandez.

“I haven’t no, and I don’t know if I would,” Jocketty said. “I still think he’s a guy that can help us with this year. I think his value is greater to us now than if we were to move him. You’re not going to get the value in return for him that he gives our club. That’s why we would hold on to him.”



So Walt knows the value in trade of a player that he WON'T listen to offers on? Freaking awesome.

Brutus
07-29-2011, 06:35 PM
Moving Cordero and Hernandez isn't about getting value back.

Moving Hernandez means getting Devin Mesoraco valuable playing time this year so when we have a chance to make the playoffs next year, he has fewer growing pains.

Moving Cordero probably saves you a little money. If you pay some of his contract, then you might get back someone who could help you next year (say a 7th inning reliever in return).

No one is going to take Cordero without the Reds paying a huge amount of his salary though. That's the issue. It defeats the purpose to move him if you're going to have to wind up paying most of it. May as well just try to make a run at this year, even if the odds are stacked against you.

I actually think Mesoraco is better off in AAA. Because when he's not catching he can DH the other days. Let him bat 7 days a week down there. I don't think the growing pains are going to be dramatically different with another 7-8 weeks experience.

Brutus
07-29-2011, 06:37 PM
So Walt knows the value in trade of a player that he WON'T listen to offers on? Freaking awesome.

Perhaps he means listened as in 'entertained' i.e. he has been given a few proposals and they're not in the ballpark worth discussing.

dougdirt
07-29-2011, 06:37 PM
Perhaps he means listened as in 'entertained' i.e. he has been given a few proposals and they're not in the ballpark worth discussing.

Or perhaps he hasn't done that at all since he said he isn't likely to listen to proposals for him. Which absolutely blows my freaking mind.

klw
07-29-2011, 06:37 PM
Let's be honest, the Reds have only one guy with any value right now (Ramon) that isn't under contract for a couple years.

Cordero, Arroyo, etc.. these guys could only be given away for free given their contracts.

I don't think whether the Reds move Hernandez or not really makes much of a difference. They're not going to get one of the Giants' premo prospects for him.

I would say Phillips certainly would have value if he was put on the market. Option is there for a buyer to extend but not a big long term $ commitment if they don't.

klw
07-29-2011, 06:38 PM
Or perhaps he hasn't done that at all since he said he isn't likely to listen to proposals for him. Which absolutely blows my freaking mind.

Or maybe he is just lying to the press, which is quite legal.

signalhome
07-29-2011, 06:40 PM
Or maybe he is just lying to the press, which is quite legal.

Probably (hopefully) this.

PuffyPig
07-29-2011, 06:40 PM
No one is going to take Cordero without the Reds paying a huge amount of his salary though.

But lets say the Reds decide to be sellers.

Since Cordero's contract is a sunk cost, if they moved him and paid his salary, they would get a very good prospect in return. Cordero would help anyone's bullpen. Especially if he was free.

Brutus
07-29-2011, 06:41 PM
Or perhaps he hasn't done that at all since he said he isn't likely to listen to proposals for him. Which absolutely blows my freaking mind.

No matter what he says, he's still posturing. When did Jocketty become forthcoming anyhow? He's always been close to the vest.

If he had any intention of trading Ramon, he's certainly not going to come out and make it sound like he's easy to part with. By saying he wouldn't listen, he's basically telling people that if you want him it better be a good offer.

I think your frustration is clouding your perception on the situation, Doug.

All these rumors the last few days about the Reds having doubts about their club, do you think Walt just magically woke up this morning and said "we're not listening to offers for Ramon?" Very, very doubtful.

I think it's more likely he's telling the media exactly (and only) what is going to help his negotiating stance to maintain leverage in all possible deals. It's GM speak. Nothing more, nothing less.

Brutus
07-29-2011, 06:42 PM
But lets say the Reds decide to be sellers.

Since Cordero's contract is a sunk cost, if they moved him and paid his salary, they would get a very good prospect in return. Cordero would help anyone's bullpen. Especially if he was free.

They'd get marginal prospects IMHO. I don't think he has much trade value even if his salary were paid. I could be absolutely wrong, but I really don't sense he has much value with or without the salary. Not saying there'd be no interest, just not enough to warrant a top level prospect.

dougdirt
07-29-2011, 06:43 PM
I think your frustration is clouding your perception on the situation, Doug.


While I hope you are right, I just seem to remember Bob stepping in at another point in time and making calls for a previous GM on whether to make trades or not because "they were in it".

Brutus
07-29-2011, 06:46 PM
While I hope you are right, I just seem to remember Bob stepping in at another point in time and making calls for a previous GM on whether to make trades or not because "they were in it".

I wouldn't be shocked if Castellini is playing a role in what the Reds do. I believe that's very possible. I just don't think Jocketty hasn't gauged every single aspect of the market by now.

The Reds have clearly been involved in dozens and dozens of rumors. It's obvious they're active in discussions. Even one of the Giants' beat reporter said the Reds want pitching and the Giants have plenty of it. It certainly read like there had been at least more than pleasantries exchanged, from the Giants' point of view.

dougdirt
07-29-2011, 06:50 PM
I wouldn't be shocked if Castellini is playing a role in what the Reds do. I believe that's very possible. I just don't think Jocketty hasn't gauged every single aspect of the market by now.

The Reds have clearly been involved in dozens and dozens of rumors. It's obvious they're active in discussions. Even one of the Giants' beat reporter said the Reds want pitching and the Giants have plenty of it. It certainly read like there had been at least more than pleasantries exchanged, from the Giants' point of view.

Or the Giants beat writer knows that every team wants pitching prospects in return and he see's what the Reds rotation has done this season and put two and two together since the Giants clearly need a catcher and Ramon Hernandez should be the best one on the market.

camisadelgolf
07-29-2011, 06:53 PM
I doubt teams are lining up to make great offers for a 35-year-old catcher, and Hernandez is due to become a type A free agent. If the Reds can get draft picks out of letting Hernandez go, then they're probably making the best possible deal. If the Reds can sign Hernandez to a one-year deal following the season, that might end up being a pretty good deal, too. I don't think Mesoraco is as a ready as people make him out to be, and it would be nice to have the insurance for 2012.

edabbs44
07-29-2011, 06:53 PM
Or perhaps he hasn't done that at all since he said he isn't likely to listen to proposals for him. Which absolutely blows my freaking mind.

I cannot see someone calling Walt and saying "Hey, we really want Ramon and are willing to give up..." and Walt interrupting and saying "Hold on there fella, I know that your offer will not have enough value for us so don't even bother" and then hanging up on the guy.

I'm fairly certain that the scenario painted above isn't happening.

Brutus
07-29-2011, 06:57 PM
I cannot see someone calling Walt and saying "Hey, we really want Ramon and are willing to give up..." and Walt interrupting and saying "Hold on there fella, I know that your offer will not have enough value for us so don't even bother" and then hanging up on the guy.

I'm fairly certain that the scenario painted above isn't happening.

Yeah. Jocketty is simply posturing. He may well be serious about Ramon, but he certainly isn't going to say otherwise. No reason to.

By the way, Jocketty also said three days ago they 'wanted to see what Alonso could do.'

I saw through that right away, but it just goes to show they're not going to reveal their true intentions.

757690
07-29-2011, 06:59 PM
I cannot see someone calling Walt and saying "Hey, we really want Ramon and are willing to give up..." and Walt interrupting and saying "Hold on there fella, I know that your offer will not have enough value for us so don't even bother" and then hanging up on the guy.

I'm fairly certain that the scenario painted above isn't happening.

http://collegecandy.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/not-listening-thumb.jpg?w=312&h=313

PuffyPig
07-29-2011, 07:02 PM
I doubt teams are lining up to make great offers for a 35-year-old catcher, and Hernandez is due to become a type A free agent. If the Reds can get draft picks out of letting Hernandez go, then they're probably making the best possible deal.

Firstly, zero chance Hernandez is offered arbitration, especially if he's a Type A FA. Guarantees he would accept. He'll get more in arbitration than on the open market.

I doubt his age makes much difference since it's a 2 month rental.

Catchers who can hit are always in demand. Those that are cheap with a 2 month commitment will bring a decent prospect.

Will M
07-29-2011, 07:10 PM
They'd get marginal prospects IMHO. I don't think he has much trade value even if his salary were paid. I could be absolutely wrong, but I really don't sense he has much value with or without the salary. Not saying there'd be no interest, just not enough to warrant a top level prospect.

he is having a nice season & a contending team could use him in an 8th inning role. if the Reds paid his salary (sunk cost) i could see them getting more than filler. maybe a B prospect & a C prospect. lets say the Reds were actually in the thick of the race & their bullpen could really use an extra arm. would you trade Frazier & Horst for that arm? thats the kind of return i think the Reds could get from say the Rangers or Cardinals.

I(heart)Freel
07-29-2011, 07:10 PM
I doubt teams are lining up to make great offers for a 35-year-old catcher, and Hernandez is due to become a type A free agent. If the Reds can get draft picks out of letting Hernandez go, then they're probably making the best possible deal. If the Reds can sign Hernandez to a one-year deal following the season, that might end up being a pretty good deal, too. I don't think Mesoraco is as a ready as people make him out to be, and it would be nice to have the insurance for 2012.

The insurance is Corky Miller. And that's IF Hanigan and Mes stink at the same time. Or get hurt. Possible but unlikely.

One has to speculate that Ramon came to Walt and said, I don't want to pack up shop and move right now, so if you keep me and offer arb I'll turn it down so you get the picks. Something like that.

The risk is... last time I looked, Ramon was projected to be Type A free agent. Would a team sign him knowing they'd have to give up the pick?

PuffyPig
07-29-2011, 07:32 PM
The risk is... last time I looked, Ramon was projected to be Type A free agent. Would a team sign him knowing they'd have to give up the pick?


No, I doubt it, since no one would want to give him the type of multi-year deal losing your 1st round pick would justify.

fearofpopvol1
07-29-2011, 07:58 PM
Walt is not going to just come out and say we're building for next year. That's just bad baseball politics. I'm sure he knows deep down the Reds are doomed for this year however. Let's hope he tries to improve for next year and beyond.

The Voice of IH
07-29-2011, 08:07 PM
http://collegecandy.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/not-listening-thumb.jpg?w=312&h=313

This is a great symbol of the trade deadline.

redsmetz
07-29-2011, 08:10 PM
Walt is not going to just come out and say we're building for next year. That's just bad baseball politics. I'm sure he knows deep down the Reds are doomed for this year however. Let's hope he tries to improve for next year and beyond.

I've been thinking about this all day, and even optimistic me has to acknowledge that there's little chance we win this year, I still want this club to try to put up the best record. I'm done with throwing in the towel. And it's rarely a black & white world. Certainly we have pieces that we can move that help some this year, but more so, will improve the clubs chances in coming years. Those are the moves we need to make, if they present themselves.

marcshoe
07-29-2011, 08:27 PM
I think it's important for the club to finish above .500 this year. I'm afraid that a losing record would foster the belief that last year was an aberration, discourage the fan base, make it harder to attract players, and perhaps even discourage the current players. It's still possible to end the season with positive momentum.

camisadelgolf
07-29-2011, 08:27 PM
If the Reds make it obvious that they're selling, fans will stop showing up to the ballpark. Business-wise, the smartest thing is to latch on to that little bit of hope.

dougdirt
07-29-2011, 08:28 PM
If the Reds make it obvious that they're selling, fans will stop showing up to the ballpark. Business-wise, the smartest thing is to latch on to that little bit of hope.

Not if "selling" means Mesoraco starts at catcher and Chapman is closing. No one is saying trade Bruce or Votto. They are saying trade guys who are leaving at the end of the year and you can replace, today.

RedsManRick
07-29-2011, 08:52 PM
What's funny about all of this is "selling" may be the approach that gives us the best chance to win this year. This team needs to take a few upside risks.

Mario-Rijo
07-29-2011, 09:07 PM
What's funny about all of this is "selling" may be the approach that gives us the best chance to win this year. This team needs to take a few upside risks.

You'll never convince an Old School GM that experience isn't a huge advantage over youth and perhaps even overall talent. In other words they most likely believe that Ramon is still more valuable a commodity this year than anything Mes can bring to the table. And he may very well be right about that. But I would deal Coco if they could actually get anything reasonable back, not sure he isn't still an asset over what he'd bring as well.

Brutus
07-29-2011, 09:25 PM
Jon Heyman just tweeted:


#astros price tag on bourn to #reds said wildly high. Cincy not playing on pence, whose price is even steeper.

Brutus
07-29-2011, 09:29 PM
Buster Olney just noted:


Rival executive: Reds focused on Michael Bourn, who would answer their desire to add a lead-off hitter for 2011 and beyond.

Brutus
07-29-2011, 09:35 PM
"Jim in Cincy" just put out a doozy. We'll see if he's right:


Looks like trade details will be finalized and to announced tomorrow afternoon prior to the game. #Reds #Giants #Rockies #Rays

mattfeet
07-29-2011, 09:41 PM
From everyone's favorite twitter account:

JohnnySmith28 Johnny Smith
"Cooler heads won for now. Seat is still very hot. Joe on FSO doing damage control."

-Matt

nemesis
07-29-2011, 09:42 PM
"Jim in Cincy" just put out a doozy. We'll see if he's right:

Upton thru Tampa, Bailey, Francisco (off the DL just in time), Surkamp thru Cincy to Colorado

Hernandez to SF

Shields and Ubaldo to Cincy

Alonso, Heisey, Wood, Boxberger to Tampa

Colorado sends some B's to TB.

Sounds like a god fit. ;)

Cedric
07-29-2011, 09:42 PM
Did anyone else hear Stubbs + others for Michael Bourn?

I will literally cry all day if that ever happens.

nemesis
07-29-2011, 09:43 PM
Did anyone else hear Stubbs + others for Michael Bourn?

I will literally cry all day if that ever happens.

Won't happen. Be worse than the Haren for Mulder trade that Walt made a few years back.

mattfeet
07-29-2011, 09:44 PM
Did anyone else hear Stubbs + others for Michael Bourn?

I will literally cry all day if that ever happens.

That'd be AWFUL.

Kc61
07-29-2011, 09:50 PM
Upton thru Tampa, Bailey, Francisco (off the DL just in time), Surkamp thru Cincy to Colorado

Hernandez to SF

Shields and Ubaldo to Cincy

Alonso, Heisey, Wood, Boxberger to Tampa

Colorado sends some B's to TB.

Sounds like a god fit. ;)

This deal actually makes sense.

Brutus
07-29-2011, 09:50 PM
Ken Rosenthal reporting the Phillies are closing in on Pence.

Brutus
07-29-2011, 09:51 PM
This deal actually makes sense.

I don't think it will be as shown there, but I do think a 4-team trade of that ilk is possible with the Reds getting Upton and Jimenez.

Matt700wlw
07-29-2011, 09:52 PM
Did anyone else hear Stubbs + others for Michael Bourn?

I will literally cry all day if that ever happens.

There's no crying on baseball message boards.

Kc61
07-29-2011, 09:52 PM
I don't think it will be as shown there, but I do think a 4-team trade of that ilk is possible with the Reds getting Upton and Jiminez.

Not Shields?

Brutus
07-29-2011, 09:55 PM
Not Shields?

Well, I don't see a reason for the Rockies to be involved unless Ubaldo is involved, and I would have to conclude the Reds would like to add a bat in addition to a frontline starter, so I think it is probably more likely they acquire one of each in a trade like that. Don't get me wrong, I'd not complain if they got both Shields and Ubaldo, but that doesn't seem very likely.

Any combination of those three would be awesome though.

11larkin11
07-29-2011, 09:57 PM
Guy rumored to be in on Pence deal from Phillies pulled from his start in the minors. Looks like thats a done deal...

Brutus
07-29-2011, 09:58 PM
Looks like the Phillies' deal for Pence is about to go through. Singleton just got removed from the lineup in his game in Clearwater.

corkedbat
07-29-2011, 09:58 PM
With the other thread over 900 posts and the new rumor of a possible sellathon, I thought a new thread may make sense.


From Jayson Stark
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/page/rumblings110729/ranking-mlb-trade-chips?campaign=rss&source=MLBHeadlines



Meanwhile there are rumors of the Reds being in on Pence, Bourn, Quentin, Ludwick, Upton Sinclair (just seeing if you were paying attention, Shields and Joe Morgan.

Been out all day and just starting this opus , so sorry about re-hashing anything

In a sell-a-thon, i would think you would get rid of all the chaff you can while holding onto the best of the wheat. The best of the wheat with the Reds would be guys like Mesoraco, Chapma, Grandal, etc. Those are the mode would be worse for Colorado than the Reds.very guys the Rox seem to be holding out for. I would think that a sell-a-thon

nate
07-29-2011, 10:01 PM
There's no crying on baseball message boards.

I beg to differ!

:cool:

corkedbat
07-29-2011, 10:02 PM
Jon Morosi chiming in
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/MLB-trade-deadline-Cincinnati-Reds-need-to-be-sellers-072811
His piece is mostly an evaluation of where the Reds stand and throws out some suggestions as opposed to saying these are actual rumors.

This guy sound more Moroni than Morosi. The reason to trade for Jiminez and/or Shields would be to form a TOR triumverate for the Reds. why do anything at all if you're just gonna turnaround and deal the ace you have?

No way I like Jiminez better than Cueto. Why on earth would you acquire Jiminez then deal Jonny? In that case, you just skip Ubaldo.

Reds Fanatic
07-29-2011, 10:09 PM
According to Ken Rosenthal the Phillies are sending 4 players to the Astros for Pence:


Singleton, Cosart, two more.

Kc61
07-29-2011, 10:09 PM
Well, I don't see a reason for the Rockies to be involved unless Ubaldo is involved, and I would have to conclude the Reds would like to add a bat in addition to a frontline starter, so I think it is probably more likely they acquire one of each in a trade like that. Don't get me wrong, I'd not complain if they got both Shields and Ubaldo, but that doesn't seem very likely.

Any combination of those three would be awesome though.

Upton doesn't seem that impressive based on the stats.

Brutus
07-29-2011, 10:12 PM
Upton doesn't seem that impressive based on the stats.

He definitely hasn't been outstanding by any means. It's worth pointing out though that Tropicana Field is second to last in run-scoring park factors this year in the entire Major Leagues.

Matt700wlw
07-29-2011, 10:13 PM
Goodness, what are the Phillies trying to do, win the World Series or something?

Tom Servo
07-29-2011, 10:13 PM
Hunter Pence isn't that good though so meh.

corkedbat
07-29-2011, 10:15 PM
Which is better?

1) Joey Votto at 1B, with all indications he is gone after 2013

2) Yonder Alonso at 1B (he's here for 6 more years if we want)
A few top-tier prospects...really top tier
An extra 26 Million or so to spend over the next 2 years

It's debatable.

It would all depend on the return. I said in the Votto thread, that at this point with Joey under control for 2 1/2 more years, you listen to any offers. If you propose any deals, you only propse deal's that the oppoing GM would be an absolute moron to accept (then jump on it if he proves he is). :D

You only deal Joey right now if it makes you considerably better in three position (or maybe superior in two). By that I mean a young 3B with power, a LF who can hit with power and play D and a pitcher with a ceilingof a #1 or #2 starter and all have to be major leaguers or major league-ready.

The asking price goes downas offseasons and trade deadlines pass.

So basically, I'm saying if the Dodgers want to send me Kemp, Kershaw and Billingsley (or the top young 2B or 3B in their org.), I jump on it, but I'm not gonna sit by the phone 24/7 waiting on an answer.

Tony Cloninger
07-29-2011, 10:16 PM
Hunter Pence isn't that good though so meh.

I think he could do very well playing lF for the Reds. Do not know what the aversion to this guy is...besides his fish eyes and dopey gait.

Kc61
07-29-2011, 10:18 PM
He definitely hasn't been outstanding by any means. It's worth pointing out though that Tropicana Field is second to last in run-scoring park factors this year in the entire Major Leagues.

I like the Shields version better, but you make a good argument why Upton could succeed with the Reds.

Brutus
07-29-2011, 10:19 PM
I like the Shields version better, but you make a good argument why Upton could succeed with the Reds.

Yeah trust me, I'd be thrilled getting not just one but two aces. But I think Upton would fit the club profile well because of his athleticism and would hit well in GABP.

Brutus
07-29-2011, 10:20 PM
Pence officially removed from the game and seen hugging teammates. He gone.

Tom Servo
07-29-2011, 10:21 PM
I think he could do very well playing lF for the Reds. Do not know what the aversion to this guy is...besides his fish eyes and dopey gait.
He's a perfectly fine outfielder, but I don't see the demand for him. And looking at his comparables on baseball-reference, I think you could get guys like Corey Hart or Josh Willingham for less and get similar production.

Reds Fanatic
07-29-2011, 10:22 PM
Pence officially removed from the game and seen hugging teammates. He gone.

Big move for Pence going from the team with the worst record in the majors to the team with the best record.

corkedbat
07-29-2011, 10:32 PM
The mode they should have been in all along and should always be in unless they are that one last bat or arm from the World Series

Kc61
07-29-2011, 10:37 PM
Would you trade Stubbs, Frazier, and Volquez for Bourn, Wandy R, and a good prospect?

mattfeet
07-29-2011, 10:40 PM
Im not high on WandyRod at all. Never been too impressed with him FWIW.

-Matt

corkedbat
07-29-2011, 10:49 PM
Talking about the Pence deal and calling it a "Blockbuser."

Pence is a decent bat and probably could have even helped the Reds. Hunter Pence and a couple of A Level guys (plus 2 PTBNL's) though does not cross the "blockbuster" threshold for me.

Joseph
07-29-2011, 10:57 PM
Definitely not a blockbuster. I see a 21 year old with an almost 4 ERA in A ball as one of the main returns. You telling me Travis Wood isn't better than that?

CrackerJack
07-29-2011, 11:00 PM
Jon Morosi chiming in
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/MLB-trade-deadline-Cincinnati-Reds-need-to-be-sellers-072811
His piece is mostly an evaluation of where the Reds stand and throws out some suggestions as opposed to saying these are actual rumors.


He is suggesting the Reds' be creative and shrewd, I've been wishing for that from both our pro teams for over 10 years now. I don't see it happening...the Reds' were that way in the 90's, at least they took risks and had cajones and multiple playoff appearances and a WS title to show for it.

Now they're an accountant/business owner's wet dream.

Tony Cloninger
07-29-2011, 11:04 PM
Definitely not a blockbuster. I see a 21 year old with an almost 4 ERA in A ball as one of the main returns. You telling me Travis Wood isn't better than that?

The 2 guys are in the Top 40 per MLB.com as prospects go...... all I hear is about the Reds prospects yet I never hear of any of them in the Top 50 besides Devin.

dougdirt
07-29-2011, 11:21 PM
The 2 guys are in the Top 40 per MLB.com as prospects go...... all I hear is about the Reds prospects yet I never hear of any of them in the Top 50 besides Devin.

Depending where you look, Grandal and Alonso are both Top 50 guys. I would argue that Daniel Corcino is pushing Top 50 as well.

kaldaniels
07-29-2011, 11:26 PM
Depending where you look, Grandal and Alonso are both Top 50 guys. I would argue that Daniel Corcino is pushing Top 50 as well.

Really? I take your word for it....though that would be quite an impressive jump.

Brutus
07-29-2011, 11:26 PM
It occurred to me that the Phillies have acquired Cliff Lee, Roy Halladay, Roy Oswalt and Hunter Pence the last few years in trades and still haven't had to give up Domonic Brown. Unbelievable.

reds44
07-29-2011, 11:27 PM
I really wouldn't mind Bourn, but not for Stubbs.

dougdirt
07-29-2011, 11:37 PM
Really? I take your word for it....though that would be quite an impressive jump.

Baseball America noted in their midseason Top 50 that he was right outside of it.

corkedbat
07-29-2011, 11:48 PM
You know, it's one thing for guys on a message board to use words like "buyers" or "sellers" but don't know why Walt would use everyterm.

to me teams that are sellers are teams that are out of contention for the current season and have a handful or older guys who could bring sone talent that might help rebuild and contend in two or three years.

On the other hand, a "seller" to me is a team that is in the heat of a race (1st or a close 2nd) and they are only one or two guys fromm being odds-on to win the pennant or world series (not just qualify for the playoffs). And, they're willing to overpay with talented prospects because they are in "win now" mode before their quickly closing window slams shut.

IMO, the Reds are not even close to either category. The Reds should always be both "buyers and "sellers" at all time. They have enough talent to compete for several years (if run properly), adding they need to fill a hand full of holes with the right guys and they coud be set - "Buyers.

At the same time, they have a lot ofyoung talent that is duplicated and a handful of veterns that may bring a return and who are standing in the way of younger talents. They havedhips they can deal, but they have to be very shrewd about it - they ned to fill holes and inprove themselves while making "their deals" and habg onto the parts they need to kep the boat moving forward.

The Reds are a franchise in Maintanence mode. Neither buyers not sellers or maybe their both. They have to bakance what they do and make wise choices.

i was thrilled when Walt took the job, but I'm having severe doubts. He has yet to make a deal that really "puts his stamp" on the franchise and makes it his. It should have happened two years ago and more than once since. Surprisingly, I get the feeling that Walt is like a deer in the headlights.

It's one thing to run a franchise that puts 3M butts in the seats every year with comparitively unlimited resources and can make go out and get talent more readily. It's another story when the franchise is in another market with limited resources. A team like the Reds needs to be run aggressively with a steadily blanced "churn", but at the same time know when the time is right to deal onn a guy.

The next 24 hours will be interesting as well as crucial. Deals need to be made, but they have to be the right deals, made without panicing and giiving up too much.

Kc61
07-29-2011, 11:57 PM
Baseball America noted in their midseason Top 50 that he was right outside of it.

Wouldn't be shocked if Reds trade Corcino this weekend.

That could help them keep Mes and Grandal.

dougdirt
07-29-2011, 11:59 PM
Wouldn't be shocked if Reds trade Corcino this weekend.

That could help them keep Mes and Grandal.

I would trade Grandal before Corcino, without thinking twice about it. Having Mesoraco makes it a very easy choice. Unless we sign our first rounder this year, Corcino is the only arm in the system that is even close to being a top prospect.

kaldaniels
07-30-2011, 12:02 AM
I would trade Grandal before Corcino, without thinking twice about it. Having Mesoraco makes it a very easy choice. Unless we sign our first rounder this year, Corcino is the only arm in the system that is even close to being a top prospect.

Should we be concerned about Stephenson signing?

corkedbat
07-30-2011, 12:03 AM
I doubt teams are lining up to make great offers for a 35-year-old catcher, and Hernandez is due to become a type A free agent. If the Reds can get draft picks out of letting Hernandez go, then they're probably making the best possible deal. If the Reds can sign Hernandez to a one-year deal following the season, that might end up being a pretty good deal, too. I don't think Mesoraco is as a ready as people make him out to be, and it would be nice to have the insurance for 2012.


Depends on the return. Draft picks rarely panout and should be a very fleeting consideration. - certainly not equal to one good prospect who could help in the bullpen or even off the bench in the next two years. Besides, would you really offer arbitration to a 35 t.o.catcherwho is coming off near-career year that will probably win him his "number"?

I love Ramon. He's been great to watch this season and Freel for him was one of our best deals of the last decade, but no, I wouldn't offer. Not when you have Mes and Hanny with Grandal close behind.

He's an asset. Get value for him now, while his value is at it's peak.

corkedbat
07-30-2011, 12:05 AM
Should we be concerned about Stephenson signing?

Not worried a bit until Aug. 16. (deadline to sign).

Brutus
07-30-2011, 12:06 AM
Scott Miller of CBS just tweeted the Reds are still talking Ryan Ludwick with the Padres. Alos mentions Indians and Braves.

corkedbat
07-30-2011, 12:13 AM
From everyone's favorite twitter account:

JohnnySmith28 Johnny Smith
"Cooler heads won for now. Seat is still very hot. Joe on FSO doing damage control."

-Matt


Anyone can throw crap at the wall and see if it sticks. Problem is, even if you succeed, your still left with crap stuck on your wall. :D

Wheelhouse
07-30-2011, 12:15 AM
I really wouldn't mind Bourn, but not for Stubbs.

Why not? Bourn was a Gold Glover last year and the year before and has led the league in stolen bases in that period, and leads this year. He's currently 5th in the NL in WAR (tied with Roy Halladay). I'd trade Stubbs for Bourn in a heartbeat, even though Stubbs is younger and is under control for longer.

Caveat Emperor
07-30-2011, 12:17 AM
Anyone can throw crap at the wall and see if it sticks. Problem is, even if you succeed, your still left with crap stuck on your wall. :D

Wouldn't surprise me if this was legit -- though, trouble is when you leak stuff like this and it doesn't happen, usually the list of people "in the know" is pretty short and you're easily pegged as the mole.

nemesis
07-30-2011, 12:24 AM
Wouldn't surprise me if this was legit -- though, trouble is when you leak stuff like this and it doesn't happen, usually the list of people "in the know" is pretty short and you're easily pegged as the mole.

Dusty said on the pregame he hasn't spoke to Walt in 3 days. So I am calling bullfrog on this one.

corkedbat
07-30-2011, 12:24 AM
Did anyone else hear Stubbs + others for Michael Bourn?

I will literally cry all day if that ever happens.

I would think (hope) that if they were both in the deal it would be widened to include Wandy and other parts. Still not sure I'd like it.

Brutus
07-30-2011, 12:30 AM
Make of this Tweet what you will. Could simply be an attempt to drive viewers:


FANS! Stay tuned to MLB Tonight. SI.com Writer Jon Heyman will discuss a deal possibly involving Ubaldo Jimenez going to the Tigers.

mattfeet
07-30-2011, 12:38 AM
According to Sources RedSox acquire Ubaldo Jimenez for Will Middlebrooks, Josh reddick, lars Anderson and a player to be named & cash

Brutus
07-30-2011, 12:41 AM
According to Sources RedSox acquire Ubaldo Jimenez for Will Middlebrooks, Josh reddick, lars Anderson and a player to be named & cash

Who's saying that? I don't see it on Twitter anywhere.

mattfeet
07-30-2011, 12:41 AM
From handle :@mlbtradebuzz

mdccclxix
07-30-2011, 12:46 AM
If so, the Sox are the new Yankees in terms of overvalued prospects.

Brutus
07-30-2011, 12:47 AM
From handle :@mlbtradebuzz

Are they a reputable source? I've never heard of them.

EDIT: In looking at their Twitter feed, they're trying to get some Boston radio personality to retweet their 'news.' Seems like they're just looking for attention, but I apologize if I'm wrong.

757690
07-30-2011, 12:49 AM
According to Sources RedSox acquire Ubaldo Jimenez for Will Middlebrooks, Josh reddick, lars Anderson and a player to be named & cash

Unless that player to be named later is Clay Buckholtz or Jon Lester, it's hard to believe that the Rockies would agree to that.

That's not even as good as Alonso, Heisey and Francisco.

corkedbat
07-30-2011, 12:53 AM
nm

corkedbat
07-30-2011, 01:02 AM
Definitely not a blockbuster. I see a 21 year old with an almost 4 ERA in A ball as one of the main returns. You telling me Travis Wood isn't better than that?

Yeah, I thought it was implied that what they we asking from us was "outrageous" (maybe it was to send him within the division).

corkedbat
07-30-2011, 01:03 AM
Unless that player to be named later is Clay Buckholtz or Jon Lester, it's hard to believe that the Rockies would agree to that.

That's not even as good as Alonso, Heisey and Francisco.

PTBNL could be Bryce Brentz who was their nummber one last year. I don't believe it has been a year since he signed.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-30-2011, 02:29 AM
If so, the Sox are the new Yankees in terms of overvalued prospects.

If so, Walt continues to fail in his quest to bring top-flight starting pitching to Cincinnati. Losing out on Cliff Lee last year was one thing, losing out on UJ this year after an offseason of not even trying for Greinke and Marcum is just complete failure. :thumbdown:

mth123
07-30-2011, 03:06 AM
Just some comments after reading the thread.

I don't see the Reds getting much of consequence for Hernandez, Cordero, etc. If you get a decent offer of a prospect that can be flipped or might help OK I guess, but I'd think the only way that would happen is if some team came specifically after them and not by the Reds actively "selling."

I'm not opposed to dealing Stubbs and Bourn is OK I guess, but Bourne and a top of the order base stealer type isn't really my cup of tea. He's having a career year and was below a .700 OPS in 2010. I'd prefer Stubbs as a main cog in a deal for Rotation help or somebody for the middle of the order. The Reds need to be tapping into their depth to add missing pieces not just switching guys out who play the same position and same role. Bourn is probably a better lead-off type than Stubbs, but I don't really see him as a better overall CF. The better idea would be to deal Stubbs for something else that's missing and simply going to Sappelt/Heisey in CF. IF they could add Bourn or Upton in a seperate deal for other depth pieces then that would be OK.

I'd be dangling Stubbs as a main cog for Ubaldo or possibly some other deal.

Big Klu
07-30-2011, 03:48 AM
Wouldn't surprise me if this was legit -- though, trouble is when you leak stuff like this and it doesn't happen, usually the list of people "in the know" is pretty short and you're easily pegged as the mole.

As I said earlier, if the Reds suspect they have a mole, they may be trying to flush him out with plausible misinformation--something that sounds good enough to be true, but is in actuality a fabrication. That's the way a mole hunt usually works.

camisadelgolf
07-30-2011, 04:15 AM
Depends on the return. Draft picks rarely panout and should be a very fleeting consideration. - certainly not equal to one good prospect who could help in the bullpen or even off the bench in the next two years. Besides, would you really offer arbitration to a 35 t.o.catcherwho is coming off near-career year that will probably win him his "number"?

I love Ramon. He's been great to watch this season and Freel for him was one of our best deals of the last decade, but no, I wouldn't offer. Not when you have Mes and Hanny with Grandal close behind.

He's an asset. Get value for him now, while his value is at it's peak.
I think PuffyPig broke down my post the best, but you're right, too--I can't imagine Hernandez not accepting arbitration, and I can't imagine Hernandez getting any higher in value. However, I don't think that saying draft picks "rarely" pan out is a fair point. Although it's a true statement--it's rarely that a 30th rounder makes the majors--it's also very unusual for a first rounder (sandwich picks included) to not make the majors. And the ones that do, they average a decent amount of WAR over the course of their careers. Studies have shown that early draft picks provide more value than they're actually paid in their signing bonuses.

Ron Madden
07-30-2011, 04:23 AM
Not a big fan of trading Stubbs.

Me either espeacially for someone like Michael Bourn.

HokieRed
07-30-2011, 09:58 AM
Me either espeacially for someone like Michael Bourn.

Agree. I don't really see them accomplishing anything with Michael Bourn that can't be accomplished with Dave Sappelt, who I do think will be next year's CF. Like mth said a couple of posts ago, it would be better to use Stubbs as part of a larger deal to make a big bump up in the quality of the pitching. Actually, I'm stubborn enough at this point just to say let's go with what we've got, see if we can't find something inside ourselves, and let things fall as they do.

membengal
07-30-2011, 10:10 AM
All I know is for people that have been advocating including Mes in a deal, that I would disappointed to do that in no small part because a team like the Phillies, who has been wheeling and dealing for a few years now, has never had to deal Dominic Brown as a part of any of those deals.

There is apparently a way to get deals done without having to deal your best prospect. The phillies did it again last night, when they got Pence.

I(heart)Freel
07-30-2011, 10:11 AM
Agree. I don't really see them accomplishing anything with Michael Bourn that can't be accomplished with Dave Sappelt, who I do think will be next year's CF. Like mth said a couple of posts ago, it would be better to use Stubbs as part of a larger deal to make a big bump up in the quality of the pitching. Actually, I'm stubborn enough at this point just to say let's go with what we've got, see if we can't find something inside ourselves, and let things fall as they do.

Or make Stubbs and Wood (and Alonso?) the main pieces in an off season quest for a thumper cleanup hitter like Kemp.

Benihana
07-30-2011, 10:30 AM
Im not really interested in Bourn, especially if Stubbs is in the deal. I've pretty much had it with Walt Jocketty. A lot of talk and never much action. The good teams (Cardinals, Brewers, Rangers, White Sox, Blue Jays, Phillies, Red Sox, Yankees) always manage to find a way to get deals done while there always seems to be some excuse from Walt. Reds have 24 hours to make a significant trade (and I hope it's not for Bourn or Ludwick) or I'm pretty much done with them for a while.

traderumor
07-30-2011, 10:32 AM
Im not really interested in Bourn, especially if Stubbs is in the deal. I've pretty much had it with Walt Jocketty. A lot of talk and never much action. The good teams (Cardinals, Brewers, Rangers, White Sox, Blue Jays, Phillies, Red Sox, Yankees) always manage to find a way to get deals done while there always seems to be some excuse from Walt. Reds have 24 hours to make a significant trade (and I hope it's not for Bourn or Ludwick) or I'm pretty much done with them for a while.Uh huh. :lol:

BuckeyeRedleg
07-30-2011, 10:33 AM
Reds have 24 hours to make a significant trade (and I hope it's not for Bourn or Ludwick) or I'm pretty much done with them for a while.

Trading for Ludwick would force me to take a long break.

kaldaniels
07-30-2011, 10:41 AM
I don't want to trade for Bourn, but I don't think it is right to assume that Sappelt could step in and produce like Bourn, a 4.85 WAR player. (His WAR really surprised me)

kaldaniels
07-30-2011, 10:44 AM
I think PuffyPig broke down my post the best, but you're right, too--I can't imagine Hernandez not accepting arbitration, and I can't imagine Hernandez getting any higher in value. However, I don't think that saying draft picks "rarely" pan out is a fair point. Although it's a true statement--it's rarely that a 30th rounder makes the majors--it's also very unusual for a first rounder (sandwich picks included) to not make the majors. And the ones that do, they average a decent amount of WAR over the course of their careers. Studies have shown that early draft picks provide more value than they're actually paid in their signing bonuses.

Not sure about the statement it is highly unusual for a first rounder to not make the majors. Perhaps it is semantics, but I would respond that it is common for first rounders to not provide sustained production in the majors.

Tony Cloninger
07-30-2011, 11:04 AM
Im not really interested in Bourn, especially if Stubbs is in the deal. I've pretty much had it with Walt Jocketty. A lot of talk and never much action. The good teams (Cardinals, Brewers, Rangers, White Sox, Blue Jays, Phillies, Red Sox, Yankees) always manage to find a way to get deals done while there always seems to be some excuse from Walt. Reds have 24 hours to make a significant trade (and I hope it's not for Bourn or Ludwick) or I'm pretty much done with them for a while.


Well who the heck else is out there? if they can get Ludwick for nothing, I think he can do fine. Bourne we know would cost a little more.

What else can be brought in that is available? Might as well not do anything.

cincrazy
07-30-2011, 11:12 AM
Just some comments after reading the thread.

I don't see the Reds getting much of consequence for Hernandez, Cordero, etc. If you get a decent offer of a prospect that can be flipped or might help OK I guess, but I'd think the only way that would happen is if some team came specifically after them and not by the Reds actively "selling."

I'm not opposed to dealing Stubbs and Bourn is OK I guess, but Bourne and a top of the order base stealer type isn't really my cup of tea. He's having a career year and was below a .700 OPS in 2010. I'd prefer Stubbs as a main cog in a deal for Rotation help or somebody for the middle of the order. The Reds need to be tapping into their depth to add missing pieces not just switching guys out who play the same position and same role. Bourn is probably a better lead-off type than Stubbs, but I don't really see him as a better overall CF. The better idea would be to deal Stubbs for something else that's missing and simply going to Sappelt/Heisey in CF. IF they could add Bourn or Upton in a seperate deal for other depth pieces then that would be OK.

I'd be dangling Stubbs as a main cog for Ubaldo or possibly some other deal.

I don't think they'll get much of consequence for Cordero, Hernandez, etc. However, the young guys taking their place (Mes, possibly Chapman as closer) would gain valuable experience, which could do nothing but help going into next year. I'm not even concerned with saving 2011 anymore, this season is over. It's time to get better for 2012, and we can start by freeing up some roster spots for younger players.

RedLegSuperStar
07-30-2011, 11:16 AM
What did Jonny Gomes net the Reds.. 2 prospects. Will they knock your socks off.. probably not. I assume a similar package would net Ludwick. I am actually for it. He has been mediocre for the Padres and ever since leaving the Cardinals he just has 5 more HR's as a Padre then he had in his season with the Cardinals in 2010 before he was dealt. He could rejuvinate himself at Great American. Based on service time he'd be a Red through '14

wally post
07-30-2011, 11:24 AM
The Braves desperately need an outfielder and possibly would like a catcher as well. JUst sayin' and hoping for a trade that thickens our team for next year.
http://aol.sportingnews.com/mlb/story/2011-07-30/braves-in-even-more-desperate-need-for-an-outfielder

Dan
07-30-2011, 11:35 AM
The Braves desperately need an outfielder and possibly would like a catcher as well. JUst sayin' and hoping for a trade that thickens our team for next year.
http://aol.sportingnews.com/mlb/story/2011-07-30/braves-in-even-more-desperate-need-for-an-outfielder

The Braves almost always seem to win their trades. I would be VERY wary of them as trading partners, especially with 24 hours to go and no time to scout specific players in their system.

traderumor
07-30-2011, 11:41 AM
The Braves almost always seem to win their trades. I would be VERY wary of them as trading partners, especially with 24 hours to go and no time to scout specific players in their system.I imagine the Reds have short wish lists for every organization prepared. If they don't, they are probably 1 of 30 teams who do not. When you are talking about prospects, I am sure the buyer is the initiater of identifying the target(s).

marcshoe
07-30-2011, 11:48 AM
What did Jonny Gomes net the Reds.. 2 prospects. Will they knock your socks off.. probably not. I assume a similar package would net Ludwick. I am actually for it. He has been mediocre for the Padres and ever since leaving the Cardinals he just has 5 more HR's as a Padre then he had in his season with the Cardinals in 2010 before he was dealt. He could rejuvinate himself at Great American. Based on service time he'd be a Red through '14

Agree with this. I wouldn't expect too much from Ludwick, but I'd rather have him than Lewis (or Gomes) because I think GABP would be a good fit for him. I could see getting him for some Valaika/Horst/Jordan Smith/Fisher/etc. combination.

IslandRed
07-30-2011, 11:56 AM
What did Jonny Gomes net the Reds.. 2 prospects. Will they knock your socks off.. probably not. I assume a similar package would net Ludwick. I am actually for it. He has been mediocre for the Padres and ever since leaving the Cardinals he just has 5 more HR's as a Padre then he had in his season with the Cardinals in 2010 before he was dealt. He could rejuvinate himself at Great American. Based on service time he'd be a Red through '14

Ludwick's a free agent after this season.

oneupper
07-30-2011, 12:09 PM
I don't know if this is the right thread, but could someone please explain the Hunter Pence trade to me?

Pence looks like a good player. He's arb-eligible for two more seasons. Not making a boatload ($6.9 mm this year). No clubhouse issues.
Astros got a ninth-rounder, a so-so pitcher in A and gave up money, also?

What am i missing that makes this a decent trade for Houston?
(Heck, if this is price, why didn't the REDS make the deal?)

reds1869
07-30-2011, 12:16 PM
I don't know if this is the right thread, but could someone please explain the Hunter Pence trade to me?

Pence looks like a good player. He's arb-eligible for two more seasons. Not making a boatload ($6.9 mm this year). No clubhouse issues.
Astros got a ninth-rounder, a so-so pitcher in A and gave up money, also?

What am i missing that makes this a decent trade for Houston?
(Heck, if this is price, why didn't the REDS make the deal?)

I thought the same thing when I saw the deal. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Kc61
07-30-2011, 12:16 PM
Bourn is a good target for the Reds.

Reds have way too many righty bats. Bourn adds another lefty bat, a good OBP guy, a good defender.

With Bourn in center, Reds can add a righty thumper for LF and have good balance in the lineup.

Of course they have to make a good deal, but he fits an offensive need.

As for Stubbs, he can be part of a deal for a pitcher or a power hitting LF.

Makes sense to me if the right deals are made.

Tricky part is extending Bourn beyond next year.

IslandRed
07-30-2011, 12:19 PM
I don't know if this is the right thread, but could someone please explain the Hunter Pence trade to me?

Pence looks like a good player. He's arb-eligible for two more seasons. Not making a boatload ($6.9 mm this year). No clubhouse issues.
Astros got a ninth-rounder, a so-so pitcher in A and gave up money, also?

What am i missing that makes this a decent trade for Houston?
(Heck, if this is price, why didn't the REDS make the deal?)

The two top prospects in the deal are, depending on which set of rankings are used, roughly equivalent to our sending them Alonso and Grandal.

mth123
07-30-2011, 12:21 PM
I don't know if this is the right thread, but could someone please explain the Hunter Pence trade to me?

Pence looks like a good player. He's arb-eligible for two more seasons. Not making a boatload ($6.9 mm this year). No clubhouse issues.
Astros got a ninth-rounder, a so-so pitcher in A and gave up money, also?

What am i missing that makes this a decent trade for Houston?
(Heck, if this is price, why didn't the REDS make the deal?)

2 of the top 50 prospects in baseball and a bullpen arm that some scouts think is ready right now. That team needs bodies and may have just acquired their ace, their clean-up hitter and their closer for 2014.

icehole3
07-30-2011, 12:22 PM
I don't want to trade for Bourn, but I don't think it is right to assume that Sappelt could step in and produce like Bourn, a 4.85 WAR player. (His WAR really surprised me)

does his WAR make him an impact player

IslandRed
07-30-2011, 12:22 PM
Bourn is a good target for the Reds.

Reds have way too many righty bats. Bourn adds another lefty bat, a good OBP guy, a good defender.

With Bourn in center, Reds can add a righty thumper for LF and have good balance in the lineup.

Of course they have to make a good deal, but he fits an offensive need.

As for Stubbs, he can be part of a deal for a pitcher or a power hitting LF.

Makes sense to me if the right deals are made.

Tricky part is extending Bourn beyond next year.

Yep. Bourn's a good fit -- replaces one of our horde of 6/7 hitters with a real leadoff guy, no defensive dropoff (which can't be said of our other internal options for replacing Stubbs), leaves open the possibility of adding a thumper in LF.

Of course, it all depends on what we'd have to give up to do it.

mth123
07-30-2011, 12:24 PM
Doug Fister just dealt to the Tigers for Charlie Furbush and another prospect.

jojo
07-30-2011, 12:27 PM
Doug Fister just dealt to the Tigers for Charlie Furbush and another prospect.

Casper Wells, Furbush, and someone else.

mth123
07-30-2011, 12:29 PM
Casper Wells, Furbush, and someone else.

Furbush was Detroit's version of Matt Maloney and Wells is a lesser version of Chrs Heisey.

jojo
07-30-2011, 12:33 PM
Furbush was Detroit's version of Matt Maloney and Wells is a lesser version of Chrs Heisey.

Pretty much.

mth123
07-30-2011, 12:38 PM
Pretty much.

I was one of the few who liked the idea of the Reds getting Fister. Seeing the deal, if the Reds could have gotten him for say Todd Frazier and Matt Maloney I'd have been happy with that.

jojo
07-30-2011, 12:46 PM
I was one of the few who liked the idea of the Reds getting Fister. Seeing the deal, if the Reds could have gotten him for say Todd Frazier and Matt Maloney I'd have been happy with that.

Looks like the ms are also getting martinez (toolsy but rushed) and an actual prospect too (PTBNL)......

puca
07-30-2011, 01:04 PM
Yep. Bourn's a good fit -- replaces one of our horde of 6/7 hitters with a real leadoff guy, no defensive dropoff (which can't be said of our other internal options for replacing Stubbs), leaves open the possibility of adding a thumper in LF.

Of course, it all depends on what we'd have to give up to do it.

Is Bourne a 'real leadoff guy' though? Sure his OBP is .360+ this year, but that is in large part due to a .380 BABIP. Last year his OBP was in the .340 range - which is admittedly better than what the Reds currently have, but not really what I want out of a leadoff hitter.

Couple that with the fact that his game is almost exclusively speed which often doesn't age well. Personally I hope the Reds pass on Bourne. His WAR is largely defensively driven which a small outfield like the GAB might supress anyhow.

savafan
07-30-2011, 01:05 PM
The Brewers picked up FeLo yesterday, and acquired Jerry Hairston, Jr. this morning.

savafan
07-30-2011, 01:08 PM
Rosenthal reports Yanks saying Rox will lower asking price on Jiminez today:

http://twitter.com/#!/Ken_Rosenthal/statuses/97317442182848512

Kc61
07-30-2011, 01:09 PM
Is Bourne a 'real leadoff guy' though? Sure his OBP is .360+ this year, but that is in large part due to a .380 BABIP. Last year his OBP was in the .340 range - which is admittedly better than what the Reds currently have, but not really what I want out of a leadoff hitter.

Couple that with the fact that his game is almost exclusively speed which often doesn't age well. Personally I hope the Reds pass on Bourne. His WAR is largely defensively driven which a small outfield like the GAB might supress anyhow.

What leadoff hitter has what you want and is reasonably available?

OldXOhio
07-30-2011, 01:12 PM
Rosenthal reports Yanks saying Rox will lower asking price on Jiminez today:

http://twitter.com/#!/Ken_Rosenthal/statuses/97317442182848512

But but but the Rox and their beat writers all swore they wouldnt do that.

savafan
07-30-2011, 01:12 PM
What leadoff hitter has what you want and is reasonably available?

Cubs have made Byrd available. I'd be interested.

mth123
07-30-2011, 01:13 PM
The Brewers picked up FeLo yesterday, and acquired Jerry Hairston, Jr. this morning.

Hairston was a smart pick-up for them with Weeks and Gomez hurt. He's nice depth for cheap. They gave up a guy who might be a 4th OF type one day.

mth123
07-30-2011, 01:19 PM
Cubs have made Byrd available. I'd be interested.

If the Reds are looking to move Stubbs for something bigger, I'd be all for Byrd as a backfill. Not interested in him for LF.

OnBaseMachine
07-30-2011, 01:19 PM
From Jon Heyman:

i am heretofore going to consider the reds and indians in on everything. #ubaldo, #bourn, #ludwick, #etc. #ThOhioPlayers

http://twitter.com/SI_JonHeyman