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View Full Version : We can't keep both Stubbs & Bruce



redssince75
07-30-2011, 01:09 PM
Unless one of them learns how to stop striking out. You can't have two everyday outfielders who strike out (esp in clutch situations) as much as those two do. Maybe you can put up with one of them, especially if they have a lot of "pop" when the ARE on.

Sorry Stubbsy, but that describes Bruce more than you. Especially with his arm, I would have to vote to keep him.

The DARK
07-30-2011, 01:20 PM
Of course we can. Stubbs is a premier CF defender, the best source of steals on the team, and one of our few sources of power at the moment. It's not like we have a lot of CF depth; if we trade Stubbs, we're left with Sappelt and Heisey as the only center fielders remotely close to the majors in the org.

They're still young and streaky, and their K rates will improve. Keep them both.

R_Webb18
07-30-2011, 01:54 PM
we just need a lf and have a set lineup

malcontent
07-30-2011, 02:04 PM
Part of the problem is that we have a manager that pencils him at leadoff in spite of Stubbs' own declaration that he's more comfortable batting lower in the lineup.

Freddie Lewis' career OBP is 22 points higher than Stubbs', and this year he's 31 points higher.

He's also been primarily a leadoff hitter in the past. Has Baker even hit him there once?

Vottomatic
07-30-2011, 02:12 PM
I'm of the belief that Reds fans overvalue Stubbs and Bruce.

They strikeout way too much for me.

Old NDN
07-30-2011, 05:18 PM
I'm of the belief that Reds fans overvalue Stubbs and Bruce.

They strikeout way too much for me.

True that.... and if Hisey continues to be the starter in LF, the Reds could have the highest OF K rate in MLB, or maybe they already do.

webbbj
07-30-2011, 05:42 PM
sure you can keep them both

Stray
07-30-2011, 05:50 PM
I have no problems going forward with both. If we can address our leadoff position I think Stubbs would be a lot more valuable. Also, if we can get a real bat to hit between Votto and Bruce I think Bruce would benefit from it, along with BP who is obviously doing something he's not really comfortable doing right now.

Krawhitham
07-30-2011, 06:43 PM
Of course we can. Stubbs is a premier CF defender, the best source of steals on the team, and one of our few sources of power at the moment. It's not like we have a lot of CF depth; if we trade Stubbs, we're left with Sappelt and Heisey as the only center fielders remotely close to the majors in the org.

They're still young and streaky, and their K rates will improve. Keep them both.

Stubbs runs fast, that does not make him a premier CF defender. HI-C is a better CF defender

The DARK
07-30-2011, 07:00 PM
Stubbs runs fast, that does not make him a premier CF defender. HI-C is a better CF defender

Evidence? Heisey is good, but he doesn't have anywhere near Stubbs's range.

BluegrassRedleg
07-30-2011, 08:24 PM
Of course we can. Stubbs is a premier CF defender, the best source of steals on the team, and one of our few sources of power at the moment. It's not like we have a lot of CF depth; if we trade Stubbs, we're left with Sappelt and Heisey as the only center fielders remotely close to the majors in the org.

They're still young and streaky, and their K rates will improve. Keep them both.

Stubbs is NOT a premier defensive CF. He's extremely fast. Big difference.

Deion Sanders was as fast as anyone to ever play for the Reds, but he was a bad defender. I'm not saying Stubbs is bad, but he's not premier/elite. He struggles royally on deep balls hit directly at him. Granted, that's the toughest play for a CF to make, but if you're going to label him "premier," he can't butcher as many of those as he has this year.

justincredible
07-30-2011, 11:57 PM
Stubbs runs fast, that does not make him a premier CF defender. HI-C is a better CF defender

I don't see it. Remember the 8 run lead that was pissed away against the Cardinals with Heisey in CF? If I remember there were two balls hit to center that Stubbs would've easily got to that Heisey misplayed.

Prf15
07-31-2011, 12:04 AM
You do not trade talents like Stubbs/Bruce just because they strikeout to much. Is it frustrating? Yes, but a strikeout is just another out.

The fact is, Drew Stubbs was a 5.2 WAR level player last year and is at 2.7 this year.

Bruce put up a .850 OPS last year with excellent defense as a 23 year old. Just think about that. Jay Bruce is still only 24 years old, younger than several of the games top prospects. Even this version of Jay Bruce is a valuable player.

Prf15
07-31-2011, 12:05 AM
Stubbs runs fast, that does not make him a premier CF defender. HI-C is a better CF defender

Heisey's defensive WAR: -0.3
Stubbs' defensive WAR: 0.9

Stubbs' defense has regressed a bit this year, but he is still a much better defender than Heisey.

SidneySlicker
07-31-2011, 12:14 AM
I'd love to see them make a push for Bourne though I fear Houston is asking for the farm. Then this off season try and get Kemp using a package surrounding Stubbs.

Bourne
Cozart
Votto
Kemp
Bruce
Phillips
Frazier (whoever's at third)
Mez

That would be a pretty darn solid lineup. Highly unlikely, but hey a guy can dream right?

sdwagers
07-31-2011, 12:19 AM
the solution is to keep both, but fire Jacoby as hitting coach. Stubbs is in love with the long ball, he needs to choke up on the bat and get the Lou Brown speech -

"With your speed, you should be hitting the ball on the ground and be legging them out. Everytime I see you hit one in the air, you owe me 20 push-ups. "

I 'd add strikeouts to the ball in the air as well.

The DARK
07-31-2011, 12:32 AM
I'd love to see them make a push for Bourne though I fear Houston is asking for the farm. Then this off season try and get Kemp using a package surrounding Stubbs.

Bourn
Cozart
Votto
Kemp
Bruce
Phillips
Frazier (whoever's at third)
Mez

That would be a pretty darn solid lineup. Highly unlikely, but hey a guy can dream right?

A solid lineup indeed, but I don't like what we have to do to get there. Bourn hits next to no home runs and has seen his defense regress in this past year; overall, he's far less valuable than Stubbs. What's more, he and Kemp would only be under team control through 2012. Kemp already has a big payday written into his contract, and Bourn is entering into his final year of arbitration, which would make picking up Phillips's option or offering a contract even more difficult than it already is. All of this doesn't even take into account the cost in prospects, which would probably clean out Stubbs, Alonso, Hamilton, and one or more of Volquez/Wood/Bailey.

Krawhitham
07-31-2011, 12:35 AM
Evidence? Heisey is good, but he doesn't have anywhere near Stubbs's range.

I watched Stubbs drop balls he should have caught

Range only matters when you can catch the ball

Krawhitham
07-31-2011, 12:36 AM
Heisey's defensive WAR: -0.3
Stubbs' defensive WAR: 0.9

Stubbs' defense has regressed a bit this year, but he is still a much better defender than Heisey.

What is his defensive WAR in CF?

Hi-C has a better Zone Rating in CF that Stubbs

13.263 vs 9.383

The DARK
07-31-2011, 12:49 AM
What is his defensive WAR in CF?

Hi-C has a better Zone Rating in CF that Stubbs

13.263 vs 9.383

Are those numbers just for this season? He's only started 11 games there this year. No statistic is going to accurately capture defensive performance in that small of a sample size.

realistic
07-31-2011, 12:59 AM
the solution is to keep both, but fire Jacoby as hitting coach. Stubbs is in love with the long ball, he needs to choke up on the bat and get the Lou Brown speech -

"With your speed, you should be hitting the ball on the ground and be legging them out. Everytime I see you hit one in the air, you owe me 20 push-ups. "

I 'd add strikeouts to the ball in the air as well.

agree with this. when the enitre team is leaving runners on base you blame the hitting coach.

youd think billy hatcher could teach stubbs to lay down a bunt. somebody, anybody. chris spier, chris welsh, joe morgan. i dont care who. if he dont spend enough time on it this winter to figure out then hes not dedicated to winning and should be traded

ervinsm84
07-31-2011, 01:10 AM
You do not trade talents like Stubbs/Bruce just because they strikeout to much. Is it frustrating? Yes, but a strikeout is just another out.

The fact is, Drew Stubbs was a 5.2 WAR level player last year and is at 2.7 this year.

Bruce put up a .850 OPS last year with excellent defense as a 23 year old. Just think about that. Jay Bruce is still only 24 years old, younger than several of the games top prospects. Even this version of Jay Bruce is a valuable player.

+1 mirrion

Could not agree more. Im almost to the point theres no reason to try and explain things like this. Some guys refuse to listen no matter what piece of evidence that is contrary to what they "believe" and "see"

WillRich
07-31-2011, 01:25 AM
Okay Drew Stubbs does strike out a lot and he does need to learn how to bunt and use his speed to get on base but look at all the other things that he does. Leads the team in SB by 19! (he has 26) which is 10th in the majors and fourth in the NL. He has the ninth most homeruns for all center fielders. He has the third most runs out of all center fielders. And plays some darn good defense. .996 fielding % with one error in 256 chances. He should not be a lead off hitter. He's not lead off material. Last year if you remember when he got put down to sixth or so in the lineup he was one of our best hitters. If you get a good lead off and let Stubbs move down in the lineup I guarantee his stats go up. Hes comfortable there, he produces better there, and makes more fans happy there. Move him down in the lineup and watch this man play some ball. And trade Bruce? That's just ignorant

sdwagers
07-31-2011, 10:10 AM
when Cozart returns, I 'd like to see him get a shot at leadoff. Bump Phillips to the two hole, Stubbs to seventh. With the way Bruce and Votto have had moderate success again lefties (at least for awhile this year) I d put Bruce back in the four hole and let Rolen hit fifth when healthy.