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MikeThierry
07-30-2011, 04:10 PM
It looks like Furcal is being dealt to St. Louis. I don't know the details of the trade but it looks like its a done deal. He is having a down year due to injuries earlier this season but has really picked it up recently and will certainly be a huge defensive upgrade over Ryan Theriot.

Edit: Looks like they will be taking on his salary and really no prospects are given up.

Brutus
07-30-2011, 04:21 PM
Sounds like you couldn't wait to tell us...

LoganBuck
07-30-2011, 04:46 PM
Furcal is too old and fragile. Tough week to be a fan of an nl central team.

Cardinals make moves fans generally disagree with
Brewers lose Weeks
Astros lose Pence
Pirates lose on terrible call
Reds and Cubs just lose

MikeThierry
07-30-2011, 06:02 PM
Furcal is too old and fragile. Tough week to be a fan of an nl central team.

Cardinals make moves fans generally disagree with
Brewers lose Weeks
Astros lose Pence
Pirates lose on terrible call
Reds and Cubs just lose

I think a good number of Cards fans were glad to see Rasmus move on. The guy will never live up to his potential here. As far as Furcal goes, you are right that he is older but he still is a significant upgrade to what the Cards are throwing at short every night. Theriot has a -18 UZR/150 at short this year. That makes his possibly the worst defensive short stop in the majors. Furcal can still pick the ball and it looks like he is starting to hit again. In his last 14 games, he has a .270 BA with a .400 OBP. The .400 OBP will be big because Cardinals leadoff hitters have been near dead last in OBP since the All Star break. If the Cards get him for very little, I think it would be a low risk/high reward move. It certainly at least helps the defense which has been frankly horrible this year.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-30-2011, 06:35 PM
Looks like the Cards and Brewers are having a tallest midget fight to see which one of them can collect more junk to help them "win" a hapless division one last time before their star player (and in the Cards' case, their manager) bolts for somewhere else and their window significantly closes.

Have at it boys. But there's really not anything either team has done - especially STL - that would even give them a puncher's chance vs. Philly.

P.S. - Who was that aging has-been that the Cards desperately picked up last year in August who contributed next to nothing? This seems similar.

Ron Madden
07-30-2011, 06:39 PM
I think JHJ can help the Brewers filling in for Weeks.

Always Red
07-30-2011, 06:42 PM
Me: "How does Furcal look?" Scout: "You know that guy on Tales From the Crypt?" Defense in particular, he says, is grim. Injuries took toll.


Two things: 1) The Crypt Keeper, though dead, ran a cool TV show. 2) I still think Furcal was good acquisition. Just not the player he was.

http://twitter.com/#!/JeffPassan

Will M
07-30-2011, 06:50 PM
Honsetly I'd rather be a Cards or Brewers fan than a Reds fan right now. Both teams are trying to improve their clubs & make the playoffs.

PuffyPig
07-30-2011, 06:52 PM
Honsetly I'd rather be a Cards or Brewers fan than a Reds fan right now. Both teams are trying to improve their clubs & make the playoffs.

That makes sense, as each (particularly the Brewers) have an expiration date much sooner than the Reds.

Does anyone here thingkthe Reds should be trading prospects for expiring contracts?

Always Red
07-30-2011, 06:56 PM
Does anyone here thingkthe Reds should be trading prospects for expiring contracts?

Absolutely not. As with most of us here, I am in for the long haul.

mth123
07-30-2011, 06:56 PM
That makes sense, as each (particularly the Brewers) have an expiration date much sooner than the Reds.

Does anyone here thingkthe Reds should be trading prospects for expiring contracts?

If they would have done it before the season was lost, sure. The Reds expiration date isn't far behind. Run prevention tanks when Philips leaves. Run production goes the following year when Votto goes.

Meanwhile, Louisville has an exciting team.

OldXOhio
07-30-2011, 07:18 PM
If they would have done it before the season was lost, sure. The Reds expiration date isn't far behind. Run prevention tanks when Philips leaves. Run production goes the following year when Votto goes.

Meanwhile, Louisville has an exciting team.

Exactly. Some on here act like the Reds are a dynasty in the making. You do understand that outside of a late summer hot streak last year, this team has done nothing.

MikeThierry
07-30-2011, 07:36 PM
If you guys have watched Theriot year playing defense all year, you would applaud the move of getting Furcal, lol. Again, as I point out above, Theriot has a -18 UZR/150 this year. I didn't even know having that low of a UZR was possible.

Yes it is a bad division, we all know this. Still, I would rather make the playoffs and have a chance to go to the World Series than stand pat and wait for next year. When teams get in the playoffs, you never know what will happen. I'll take my chances.

Its almost a done deal. The Cards are giving up marginal prospects and getting cash in return, from what I understand.

Basically the Cards in this trade season give up a highly toughted prospect before GM's figure out that he is another BJ Upton, trade away our horrible bullpen guys, marginal minor league prospects in exchange for a defensive upgrade at SS, a starting pitcher, a stud lefty specialist, and a righty specialist.

_Sir_Charles_
07-30-2011, 07:55 PM
Looks like they will be taking on his salary and really no prospects are given up.

That's good news for Cardinals fans...especially since they have no prospects to give up. :O) I kid.

Brutus
07-30-2011, 07:56 PM
Honsetly I'd rather be a Cards or Brewers fan than a Reds fan right now. Both teams are trying to improve their clubs & make the playoffs.

I guess I'm confused... but isn't trying to trade for Jimenez, Shields, Upton, Ludwick, etc. trying to improve the Reds' club?

OldXOhio
07-30-2011, 08:00 PM
If you guys have watched Theriot year playing defense all year, you would applaud the move of getting Furcal, lol. Again, as I point out above, Theriot has a -18 UZR/150 this year. I didn't even know having that low of a UZR was possible.

Yes it is a bad division, we all know this. Still, I would rather make the playoffs and have a chance to go to the World Series than stand pat and wait for next year. When teams get in the playoffs, you never know what will happen. I'll take my chances.

Its almost a done deal. The Cards are giving up marginal prospects and getting cash in return, from what I understand.

Basically the Cards in this trade season give up a highly toughted prospect before GM's figure out that he is another BJ Upton, trade away our horrible bullpen guys, marginal minor league prospects in exchange for a defensive upgrade at SS, a starting pitcher, a stud lefty specialist, and a righty specialist.

Regardless of what some say on here, a healthy Furcal is better than Theriot. I hope the deal doesn't go down bc it improves the cards.

MikeThierry
07-30-2011, 08:09 PM
That's good news for Cardinals fans...especially since they have no prospects to give up. :O) I kid.

Actually, the Cards have done a really good job of rebuilding their farm system. I know coming into this year, the Cards farm system was ranked 24th by Baseball America but that was before the emergence of guys like Carlos Martinez, Tyrell Jenkins, Matt Adams, Edwardo Sanchez, Fernando Salas, Lance Lynn etc. Shelby Miller is already regarded as one of the top pitching prospects, if not the top, in the majors. At the end of the year Carlos Martinez might also be a top ten mlb prospect as well. Salas, Lynn, and Sanchez weren't regarded much in the beginning of the season but since coming to the majors, their stock has really risen. I still consider them prospects because all of them are rookies and we really don't know what the future holds for them. They could still though be chips in a major trade if needed.

The Cards have also done an excellent job of scouting in Latin America. That was once a dead area for the Cards but they have rebuilt that connection down there. Edwardo Sanchez and Carlos Martinez both have come from their Latin America school. It wouldn't surprise me that next year when Baseball America comes out with its rankings, the Cards will be in the top ten, or close to it, as far as their farm systems go.

By the way, here is Keith Law's top 50 prospects Mid Season. Both Carlos Martinez and Shelby Miller are in his top 5. I'm glad we were able to pull Martinez away from Boston:

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/story?id=6768361&_slug_=mlb-keith-law-updated-2011-top-50-prospects&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fmlb %2fstory%3fid%3d6768361%26_slug_%3dmlb-keith-law-updated-2011-top-50-prospects

_Sir_Charles_
07-30-2011, 08:18 PM
As I was saying Mike. I was kidding.

MikeThierry
07-30-2011, 08:31 PM
As I was saying Mike. I was kidding.

hehe I know :)

PuffyPig
07-30-2011, 09:28 PM
Actually, the Cards have done a really good job of rebuilding their farm system. I know coming into this year, the Cards farm system was ranked 24th by Baseball America but that was before the emergence of guys like Carlos Martinez, Tyrell Jenkins, Matt Adams, Edwardo Sanchez, Fernando Salas, Lance Lynn etc. Shelby Miller is already regarded as one of the top pitching prospects, if not the top, in the majors. At the end of the year Carlos Martinez might also be a top ten mlb prospect as well. Salas, Lynn, and Sanchez weren't regarded much in the beginning of the season but since coming to the majors, their stock has really risen. I still consider them prospects because all of them are rookies and we really don't know what the future holds for them. They could still though be chips in a major trade if needed.

The Cards have also done an excellent job of scouting in Latin America. That was once a dead area for the Cards but they have rebuilt that connection down there. Edwardo Sanchez and Carlos Martinez both have come from their Latin America school. It wouldn't surprise me that next year when Baseball America comes out with its rankings, the Cards will be in the top ten, or close to it, as far as their farm systems go.

By the way, here is Keith Law's top 50 prospects Mid Season. Both Carlos Martinez and Shelby Miller are in his top 5. I'm glad we were able to pull Martinez away from Boston:

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/story?id=6768361&_slug_=mlb-keith-law-updated-2011-top-50-prospects&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fmlb %2fstory%3fid%3d6768361%26_slug_%3dmlb-keith-law-updated-2011-top-50-prospects

I think you may be confused as to how BA does it's team ranknigs.

It's based strickly on curent prospects.

With guys like Salas, Sanchez and Lynn having graduated and no longer considered prospects, the Cards have zero chance of being in the top 10.

MikeThierry
07-30-2011, 09:31 PM
I think you may be confused as to how BA does it's team ranknigs.

It's based strickly on curent prospects.

With guys like Salas, Sanchez and Lynn having graduated and no longer considered prospects, the Cards have zero chance of being in the top 10.


Ahh fair enough. My overall point though was that cupboard isn't as bare as people might think it is.

corkedbat
07-30-2011, 09:41 PM
I think this does make the Cards better and helps them win this year (if he can stay on the field. I think they have a good shot this year, but all of the bailing wire canduct tape will catch up to them.

As for the how it affects the Reds this year. The Reds have been doing just fine at taking themselves out of the race. That's why I've said for the last couple of weeks that no deadline deals should be geared toward 2012 & 13 and any boost in 2011 is gravy.

as i said, this does help the Cards, but doesn't make the Reds that much tougher than it may have been yesterday.

I'd have been scared ***less if this deal had been cut two years abo and pissed because the Reds didn't make it.

_Sir_Charles_
07-30-2011, 09:46 PM
baolong wire canduct tape

LOL. What in the world? :O) Somebodies autocorrect is going haywire. :lol:

edabbs44
07-30-2011, 09:48 PM
Exactly. Some on here act like the Reds are a dynasty in the making. You do understand that outside of a late summer hot streak last year, this team has done nothing.

July 30, 2010: Cincy was 0.5 games behind St Louis and 10 games above .500.

Will M
07-30-2011, 11:23 PM
I guess I'm confused... but isn't trying to trade for Jimenez, Shields, Upton, Ludwick, etc. trying to improve the Reds' club?

No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-31-2011, 12:10 AM
Cards are stronger after the deadline. Big surprise.

toledodan
07-31-2011, 12:13 AM
No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try.

i agree. its like saying i want to date a super model. however thats just not gonna happen.

corkedbat
07-31-2011, 01:10 AM
No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try.

OK Yoda, drop the X-Wing and get outta the swamp. :D

OldXOhio
07-31-2011, 01:29 AM
July 30, 2010: Cincy was 0.5 games behind St Louis and 10 games above .500.

My bad. That reeks of dynasty.

Phhhl
07-31-2011, 02:06 AM
Furcal would have been a nice deal for us. He cost the Cardinals absolutely nothing of substance. Yes, he may continue to hit .196, or get injured walking down the clubhouse steps tomorrow. But, historically, he has been an outstanding leadoff hitter, and a very good defender. We could have dropped Stubbs down to 6th or 7th in this lineup, where he is actually an asset, and rolled the bones on a very low risk/high reward deal.

What the hell is going on with this front office? We have major league ready talent we are neither prepared to use, nor prepared to trade. Everybody in baseball recognizes this franchise as a powderkeg except for the men in charge of it!

This trading deadline is a critical point in the history of this franchise. This Reds team is loaded with what it takes to land a critical piece and become relavent for 2012 and beyond. BJ Upton, Big Game James, I don't know who it should be. But, it HAS to be somebody other than Michael Bourne and his freakish 2011 obp.

I am sick and tired of the small market argument. People are filling up GABP and having a great time. It is time to capitolize on this opportunity, or get off the pot.

traderumor
07-31-2011, 08:39 AM
If you guys have watched Theriot year playing defense all year, you would applaud the move of getting Furcal, lol. Again, as I point out above, Theriot has a -18 UZR/150 this year. I didn't even know having that low of a UZR was possible.

Yes it is a bad division, we all know this. Still, I would rather make the playoffs and have a chance to go to the World Series than stand pat and wait for next year. When teams get in the playoffs, you never know what will happen. I'll take my chances.

Its almost a done deal. The Cards are giving up marginal prospects and getting cash in return, from what I understand.

Basically the Cards in this trade season give up a highly toughted prospect before GM's figure out that he is another BJ Upton, trade away our horrible bullpen guys, marginal minor league prospects in exchange for a defensive upgrade at SS, a starting pitcher, a stud lefty specialist, and a righty specialist.Oh man, you ain't just sipping the kool-aid, you are chugging the stuff.

mbgrayson
07-31-2011, 11:20 AM
What the Cards gave up:

SUNDAY, 10:06am: The Dodgers will receive Double-A outfielder Alex Castellanos from the Cardinals, reports Goold.

Castellanos is 24 years old (almost 25), and at AA Springfield he is hitting .319/.379/.562 for an OPS of .941, with 19 HRs so far in 2011.

A little old for his level, but that is not 'nothing'.

savafan
07-31-2011, 11:30 AM
What the Cards gave up:


Castellanos is 24 years old (almost 25), and at AA Springfield he is hitting .319/.379/.562 for an OPS of .941, with 19 HRs so far in 2011.

A little old for his level, but that is not 'nothing'.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=castel001ale

Clearly having the best year of his minor league career this year though. 2008 through 2010 look rather pedestrian.

MikeThierry
07-31-2011, 11:36 AM
Oh man, you ain't just sipping the kool-aid, you are chugging the stuff.

Tell me how that isn't true though? Rasmus will never live up to his potential in St. Louis and I just see him as another BJ Upton type who has been a disappointment his whole career. I think the Cards got rid of him at the right time before GM's figured out that he is another JD Drew lite. In the process of the trade, we got rid of Trevor Miller, PJ Walters, and Brian Tallet all of which were ineffective out of the pen. They give up a minor league guy for Furcal who will probably not see any time in the big leagues.

In exchange did they not get a starting pitcher, a defensive upgrade at SS, a lefty and righty specialist? I don't exactly get where you are saying I'm drinking the koolaid. I think that is a fair assessment of the Cards moves this trade deadline season.

MikeThierry
07-31-2011, 11:43 AM
What the Cards gave up:


Castellanos is 24 years old (almost 25), and at AA Springfield he is hitting .319/.379/.562 for an OPS of .941, with 19 HRs so far in 2011.

A little old for his level, but that is not 'nothing'.

I think part of it is we have guys like Matt Adams in the system. If there is anything the Cards have as far as prospects go is that they do have a lot of outfielders. I think the Cards are more high on guys like Oscar Taveras, Adron Chambers, and Matt Adams than they were Castellanos. The age thing that was pointed out might be one of the reasons. I also think that other outfielders from our system would have seen major league time before Castellanos would have. Yeah he has some talent but I'm ok with parting with him for a defensive upgrade at SS.

Reds Fanatic
07-31-2011, 11:57 AM
What the Cards gave up:


Castellanos is 24 years old (almost 25), and at AA Springfield he is hitting .319/.379/.562 for an OPS of .941, with 19 HRs so far in 2011.

A little old for his level, but that is not 'nothing'.

Cardinals are also paying $1.4M of Furcal's salary.

camisadelgolf
07-31-2011, 12:00 PM
The Cardinals are improved for 2011. As for 2012 and beyond, it depends on whether they keep Edwin Jackson around or not.

OldXOhio
07-31-2011, 12:00 PM
Mike you're never going to get much Cardinal love on a Reds board, you know that. And while the moves STL is making are debatable (I like the Furcal trade, not crazy about the Rasmus for your team) there's no arguing one thing: the Cards are in the race for the long haul and are one of the 2 prohibitive favorites to win the central. It wasn't that long ago some on here were predicting a Cardinals fade post AS break. Not hearing any mention of that now are we? Today, it's just a question of how strong can they get for the final push.

And as much as I do not like admitting this, STL is going to win the central when it's all said and done.

MikeThierry
07-31-2011, 12:11 PM
Old, there is no question the Rasmus trade could blow up in our face. I just think it became a situation that was unsustainable here because of the fan base and management. I believe if Rasmus remained in St. Louis, he would continue his prolonged slump and there was a fear that he would go from a once highly toughted prospect to that familiar story of wasted talent. I do like the fact that we got a really good lefty specialist under our control for years to come. The lefty specialist is something the Cards haven't had for several years.

OldXOhio
07-31-2011, 12:16 PM
Old, there is no question the Rasmus trade could blow up in our face. I just think it became a situation that was unsustainable here because of the fan base and management. I believe if Rasmus remained in St. Louis, he would continue his prolonged slump and there was a fear that he would go from a once highly toughted prospect to that familiar story of wasted talent. I do like the fact that we got a really good lefty specialist under our control for years to come. The lefty specialist is something the Cards haven't had for several years.

Rasmus is testament to the fact that we are reminded of every couple of years: those who challenge TLR's authority are destined to lose. I think the kid is a bigtime talent, but agree it probably wasn't going to happen for him in STL.

PuffyPig
07-31-2011, 12:56 PM
Rasmus will never live up to his potential in St. Louis .....

Well, he certainly won't now.

But you can't be certain that he wouldn't have.

And if the reason he couldn't is Larussa, you need to ship him and his giant ego on the first bus to Chicago, as I doubt he could get his ego checked through security on United.

And even if it was true, that doesn't mean Rasmus had no value.

MikeThierry
07-31-2011, 01:03 PM
Well, he certainly won't now.

But you can't be certain that he wouldn't have.

And if the reason he couldn't is Larussa, you need to ship him and his giant ego on the first bus to Chicago, as I doubt he could get his ego checked through security on United.

And even if it was true, that doesn't mean Rasmus had no value.

Well we could wait and see him live up to his "potential" or make our team better now. I choose making the team better now rather than hoping a prospect pans out.

PuffyPig
07-31-2011, 01:14 PM
Well we could wait and see him live up to his "potential" or make our team better now. I choose making the team better now rather than hoping a prospect pans out.

Rasmus was not a propsect.

He was your regular CF for the last 3 years, and gave you a well above average.771 OPS during that time (average this year in the NL is about .700).

He was making your team better right now.

camisadelgolf
07-31-2011, 01:40 PM
The "left-hand specialist" might end up being the biggest part of the trade. He has nice peripherals and is pretty young.

kaldaniels
07-31-2011, 01:58 PM
Mike,

Saying that Rasmus would never prosper in STL to rationalize the trade is missing the forest for the trees. It should have never gotten to such a standoffish point between him and Tony. The Cards are worse off for having to rid themselves of him.

kaldaniels
07-31-2011, 01:59 PM
The "left-hand specialist" might end up being the biggest part of the trade. He has nice peripherals and is pretty young.

Hey, haven't we beaten the Kearns trade to death around here. :laugh:

MikeThierry
07-31-2011, 02:05 PM
Saying that Rasmus would never prosper in STL to rationalize the trade is missing the forest for the trees. It should have never gotten to such a standoffish point between him and Tony. The Cards are worse off for having to rid themselves of him.

It was just more than him and TLR. Rasmus wasn't listening to the coaching staff and his father issues were a mess. I think also what started this whole thing is him demanding a trade last season. Like I said before, I know many here think TLR is the devil incarnate but in this situation, the blame really goes on Rasmus's shoulders.


Rasmus was not a propsect.

He was your regular CF for the last 3 years, and gave you a well above average.771 OPS during that time (average this year in the NL is about .700).

He was making your team better right now.

He was making our team better by going 0-4 with 2 k's and taking bad reads off of balls hit to him in center? Maybe from Reds fans standpoints keeping him on the team would have been a good thing because he was an automatic out in the lineup.

Patrick Bateman
07-31-2011, 02:28 PM
Mike, I find your constant flip flopping on the evaluation of Cards players somewhat humerous. Here are your thoughts on the great combo of Theriot and Tallet upon being acquired by the Cardinals:

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2300904&postcount=8

Looks like that SS hole doesn't need much fixing...........

And here are some further thoughts on Tallet solidfying the Cardinals bullpen. Sure doesn't seem like a bullpen that requires trading Rasmus to "fix":

"If you also look at the off season move of getting Brian Tallet from the Jays, that kind of solves the left handed issue you were talking about. While his numbers might not look impressive from the outside, when you delve in deeper the Cardinals kind of got a good find. The Jays were using him as a starter/long relief last year where as Duncan is putting him in the pen where he kind of should have been in the first place. Look at his stats against left handed hitters. Lefties had a .176 BA against him and he has a 4.67 SO/BB ratio. His splits are noticeably different against right handers."


Lastly, as of February of THIS year (read that, 5 months ago), you were ready to include Rasmus in the discussion for the next "big thing in baseball", and made the argument that he was a very strong comp for Jay Bruce:


http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2322598&postcount=19


Yet, here we are all of 5 months later, and Rasmus is basically dead weight and the Cards should be comended for getting much of anything for value for him.

In reality, the actual trade value of these guys has not really changed much in the last year. Theriot was acquired for garbage, and provided the expected value of a below average starting SS. That was always a compromise.

Tallet was acquired for nothing because nobody else wanted him and held little value to a team. It's no surprise that he had to be included as a salary dump, rather than being considered a bullpen fixture as you apparently did just a few months ago.

As far as Rasmus, a few extra months of struggling shouldn't take a guy out from being a generational stud to trade fodder. The reality is that he still holds that huge upside, and the Cards should not be comended for making him feel uncomfortable, leading to decreased production, and forcing a trade outside of the St. Louis for pennies on the dollar.

IMO, the only thing that has changed in relation that has changed in relation to your analysis is the jerseys that the players are now wearing, or in the case of Theriot, a convenient excuse to justify the year's SS transactions.

MikeThierry
07-31-2011, 03:51 PM
So its not possible to change your mind about players 8 months after you made a post? That is a bit unfair, in my opinion, to call someone a flip flopper on an issue when situations are fluid. Heck, even on this board, people were ready to name Jay Bruce NL MVP just 2 months ago and now some here are frustrated by his play right now.

Patrick, it is a bit unfair of you to take a thread that was started last November and apply it to the current situation we have now. I could go through any number of members of the RedZone and point out predictions that have went wrong for the Reds or any other players on the Reds. To hold someone accountable for a prediction they had 8 months ago and expecting them not to change their opinion on a given issue with the situation at hand is a bit unreasonable. Heck, I was roundly criticized here for saying David Freese will have a more productive year than Scott Rolen. Freese missed two months of the season and is already outproducing him. Should I hold people accountable for being wrong on that prediction before the season started? Absolutely not.

I thought Theriot would get a fresh start here. For about 2-3 months, his defense was livable because he was an excellent leadoff hitter. He has taken a tailspin since then and it was clear things needed to change. If Ryan Theriot was still hitting over .300, the Cards wouldn't have made the trade for Furcal and all of this is a mute point. The situation isn't that way though and I have to adapt my opinion to what is actually being played out on the field. Furthermore, if you look at it from the context of 8 months ago, Theriot was an upgrade to Brendan Ryan who had a horrible year even with his good defense.

I was excited about Briant Tallet because if you looked at this splits against left handed hitters, he was excellent in Toronto. I felt at the time, again in NOVEMBER, that this could be a very good lefty specialist in the bullpen. I was clearly wrong. He has been injured and he hasn't been good. Something needed to be done. Even in that thread you pointed out, I said I was intrigued by the acquisition of Brian Tallet. I never even said that he was going to be a fixture in the pen or someone. That said, Denny's Reyes was horrible and even the production we got from Tallet this season was better than anything we got from Reyes last season. From that standpoint, he was an upgrade. Now we can argue if a pile of trash that has banana's in it is better than a pile of trash that has cow dung in it is better and that might be the situation when we are comparing Tallet to Reyes.

On the Rasmus issue, I thought he was going to take off, just as many here thought Bruce was going to take off. I thought things were patched up in the off season with Rasmus and TLR but they reared their ugly head again. Furthermore, he looked more lost this year than anytime last year and it was clear as time went on that the situation was unsustainable. It is unfair of you to say that I am essentially throwing him under the bus because even in this thread I said the Rasmus trade could bit the Cards in the butt down the road. He still has a lot of upside. My opinion on that hasn't changed. He could be a superstar and could be the next big thing. My only question is if he has the mental approach to reach that upside and I don't think he would have reached it here.

PuffyPig
07-31-2011, 04:01 PM
So its not possible to change your mind about players 8 months after you made a post? That is a bit unfair, in my opinion, to call someone a flip flopper on an issue when situations are fluid. Heck, even on this board, people were ready to name Jay Bruce NL MVP just 2 months ago and now some here are frustrated by his play right now.

Patrick, it is a bit unfair of you to take a thread that was started last November and apply it to the current situation we have now. I could go through any number of members of the RedZone and point out predictions that have went wrong for the Reds or any other players on the Reds. To hold someone accountable for a prediction they had 8 months ago and expecting them not to change their opinion on a given issue with the situation at hand is a bit unreasonable. Heck, I was roundly criticized here for saying David Freese will have a more productive year than Scott Rolen. Freese missed two months of the season and is already outproducing him. Should I hold people accountable for being wrong on that prediction before the season started? Absolutely not.

I thought Theriot would get a fresh start here. For about 2-3 months, his defense was livable because he was an excellent leadoff hitter. He has taken a tailspin since then and it was clear things needed to change. If Ryan Theriot was still hitting over .300, the Cards wouldn't have made the trade for Furcal and all of this is a mute point. The situation isn't that way though and I have to adapt my opinion to what is actually being played out on the field. Furthermore, if you look at it from the context of 8 months ago, Theriot was an upgrade to Brendan Ryan who had a horrible year even with his good defense.

I was excited about Briant Tallet because if you looked at this splits against left handed hitters, he was excellent in Toronto. I felt at the time, again in NOVEMBER, that this could be a very good lefty specialist in the bullpen. I was clearly wrong. He has been injured and he hasn't been good. Something needed to be done. Even in that thread you pointed out, I said I was intrigued by the acquisition of Brian Tallet. I never even said that he was going to be a fixture in the pen or someone. That said, Denny's Reyes was horrible and even the production we got from Tallet this season was better than anything we got from Reyes last season. From that standpoint, he was an upgrade. Now we can argue if a pile of trash that has banana's in it is better than a pile of trash that has cow dung in it is better and that might be the situation when we are comparing Tallet to Reyes.

On the Rasmus issue, I thought he was going to take off, just as many here thought Bruce was going to take off. I thought things were patched up in the off season with Rasmus and TLR but they reared their ugly head again. Furthermore, he looked more lost this year than anytime last year and it was clear as time went on that the situation was unsustainable. It is unfair of you to say that I am essentially throwing him under the bus because even in this thread I said the Rasmus trade could bit the Cards in the butt down the road. He still has a lot of upside. My opinion on that hasn't changed. He could be a superstar and could be the next big thing. My only question is if he has the mental approach to reach that upside and I don't think he would have reached it here.

Mike, I think the point my son is making is those players actually didn't change, only your opinion did.

Theriot and Tallett are the exact same players thery were when they came to St. Louis. They didn't get worse, they played to their ability.

Your opinion changed when they changed jerseys.

And Theriot was never a better alternative than Ryan. and least not to those that subscribe to the theorty that SS need to catch at least some of the baseballs that come their way. Theriot is actually out hitting what should have been exepcted of him. His OPS is up 30 points from last year

Patrick Bateman
07-31-2011, 04:01 PM
Everyone is free to change their opinions.

I just find it humerous that your opinions changed entirely on the activity of the Carinals moves (rather than the relative merits of the players free from bias), even when the value of those players has changed minimally over the course of the season.

It's not like Theroit or Tallet were expected to be good this season. Yet they are considered good moves when the Cards implement them in key roles, yet, when they aren't they stink again. 5 months ago, Colby is an MVP candidate, now he's trade bait for middle relievers? Maybe Reds fans have soured on Bruce, but not one person on the board thinks that trading him for middle relievers and 2 month rental is a locked in good move, or reasonable value for the potential held.

PuffyPig
07-31-2011, 04:02 PM
He was making our team better by going 0-4 with 2 k's.....

Hard to image how a player who never gets a hit had a OPS 70 points above the league average.

Brutus
07-31-2011, 04:02 PM
No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try.

You yourself said they were "trying."

So shouldn't you have said "doing?"

PuffyPig
07-31-2011, 04:07 PM
I was excited about Brian Tallet......

And I thought Reds fans had low expectations. :laugh:

If the thought of Brian Tallent pitching key outs in your bullpen excited you, you might want to sit back and consider why it actually did. He was arguably the worse pitcher in the league last year.

MikeThierry
07-31-2011, 05:08 PM
I just find it humerous that your opinions changed entirely on the activity of the Carinals moves (rather than the relative merits of the players free from bias), even when the value of those players has changed minimally over the course of the season.

Actually, my opinion changed based on production on the field rather than any transactions the Cardinals made. My opinion of Theriot soured when he couldn't actually hit a ball out of the infield and we had to put up with his horrible defense as well. I looked at his career numbers when the trade was made and thought he could mirror what he did in Chicago as 2010 was a down year for him. Its not like yesterday I was happy Theriot was on the team and now that we have Furcal, I'm throwing him under the bus. Same with Rasmus. He has the potential but as the season went on and his attitude soured, so too did my opinion of him. I started to feel as the season went on that Rasmus is just another case of BJ Upton. All the talent in the world but unable to put it together due to his mentality. I thought going into this season that he may have matured some but that clearly wasn't the case as time went on. Again, nothing to do with the players being in different uniforms now.

At the time, Tallet has excellent splits against left handed batters. In 2010, left handed batters were hitting just .176 against him with a .343 SLG. Even if you look at his career splits against left handed batters they were decent. I thought the Cardinals, esp. Dave Duncan, could turn him into a lefty specialist as it looked like he was being used in Toronto wrong. That is why I was intrigued by Tallet. This season though, he broke his hand and was on the DL several times. When he came back from the DL he wasn't effective at all. Maybe his horrible year was due to injury and he never got it going, I don't know.

MikeThierry
07-31-2011, 05:17 PM
Maybe Reds fans have soured on Bruce, but not one person on the board thinks that trading him for middle relievers and 2 month rental is a locked in good move, or reasonable value for the potential held.

I think this is where Cardinals fans and Reds fans just have a different thought process about how to build their teams. If Colby was on the Reds it would be stupid to move him because of cost effectiveness. However, I think the Cardinals are in a different financial position than the Reds to where if the Cards give up a talented player, they have the money to go out and get a replacement level player, much like the Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, or any number of the large payroll teams. The Cardinals payroll will be over $100 million for the foreseeable future where as the Reds are struggling to break $80 million. I'm not saying that is a bad thing. My only point in this is losing a young, cost control player like a Rasmus or a Bruce will hurt the Reds more than it would the Cards. I can see why you feel the way you do being a fan of a team that doesn't have a high payroll and won't for the foreseeable future.

I think a perfect example of this difference in how we look at our teams is the Lance Berkman deal. Many here were saying it was stupid for the Cards to give Berkman $8 million. I was of the opinion of why not take a flyer on a guy that has proven to be a very good player, its only $8 million. To Reds fans, spending $8 million would be a lot but to Cards fans its not a whole lot.

I just know that in the off season, the Cards will do something to bolster their roster to replace said player, if Jon Jay doesn't work out of course.

PuffyPig
07-31-2011, 05:49 PM
My opinion of Theriot soured when he couldn't actually hit a ball out of the infield and we had to put up with his horrible defense as well.

He couldn't hit a ball out of the infield in 2010, his power numbers actualy inproved this year. He couldn't play SS last year also, the Dodgers replaced him with vertern player who had seldom played SS.

Theriot is the same player this year as last.