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View Full Version : Walt Jocketty 'explains' the inactivity...



Brutus
07-31-2011, 04:54 PM
From Mark Sheldon, Here was his position on why no trades were made...


“We thought we were maybe yesterday. In the end, it probably was not as close as we thought it was,” Jocketty said. “We tried working on a number of big deals and some of the guys that were traded, we were in on most of them. Some of the requests for us, we felt were ridiculous and a lot more than we were willing to pay.”

The big issue was that team were asking for some coveted Reds prospects.

“Not just one or two,” Jocketty said. “It just didn’t make good sense for us in the short term or the long term. So we pulled back. We still believe we have enough talent here to win the division. I think we have to play better and I think this weekend was a great indication of what this team is capable of doing.”

http://marksheldon.mlblogs.com/2011/07/31/no-reds-trades-at-deadline/

OK I get all that. But listening to him describe it, almost feels as if he wasn't trying to wait guys out and understand the asking price is always going to start high. I doubt the Indians were being asked of just Pomeranz and White initially. The Rockies were probably also asking for Chisenhall, etc.

savafan
07-31-2011, 05:00 PM
How many times has he used this excuse now?

Brutus
07-31-2011, 05:02 PM
How many times has he used this excuse now?

I don't know. I feel like the Reds have been moving the goal posts the last few years.

If it's not one reason it's another...

Caveat Emperor
07-31-2011, 05:02 PM
http://marksheldon.mlblogs.com/2011/07/31/no-reds-trades-at-deadline/

OK I get all that. But listening to him describe it, almost feels as if he wasn't trying to wait guys out and understand the asking price is always going to start high. I doubt the Indians were being asked of just Pomeranz and White initially. The Rockies were probably also asking for Chisenhall, etc.

Could simply be a case of the Reds just not having much enticing stuff behind the "untouchable" level guys.

Someone has to want your guys for a trade to work.

Brutus
07-31-2011, 05:08 PM
Could simply be a case of the Reds just not having much enticing stuff behind the "untouchable" level guys.

Someone has to want your guys for a trade to work.

I get all that. But therein lies the problem... I don't believe anyone should have been untouchable.

Not in this situation, where they could get a stud pitcher for the next 3 1/3 years at an affordable price...

Tom Servo
07-31-2011, 05:11 PM
http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lo0s2eI6ue1qztjn5o1_500.png

Walt Jocketty and redszone's own pedro attend a trade meeting.

puca
07-31-2011, 05:12 PM
Could simply be a case of the Reds just not having much enticing stuff behind the "untouchable" level guys.

Someone has to want your guys for a trade to work.

Exactly.

I'm disappointed as the next guy that the Reds didn't do anything, but unless we hear the offers and counter offers there is no telling. I sounded like Walt was working hard, he just didn't like anything that was offered. He may have waiting for the asking price to drop on Jiminez and instead Cleveland blinked. We weren't in the room we can't tell what went on.

The Reds have some pretty nice front line young talent and then they have a bunch of guys that RedsZone is high on. No telling if any other team values Mes, Grandal, Alonso, Hamilton or even Bailey and Wood as much as we seem to. Perhaps Colorado was asking for Cueto + Mes to top the Indians offer.

KronoRed
07-31-2011, 05:13 PM
I dunno, all of this "we were in on everything" reminds of Jimbo's "we could have gotten everyone if the owners hadn't stopped me"

Call me skeptical.

puca
07-31-2011, 05:13 PM
I get all that. But therein lies the problem... I don't believe anyone should have been untouchable.

Not in this situation, where they could get a stud pitcher for the next 3 1/3 years at an affordable price...

I'm sure we could pry Jiminez from the Indians for Cueto + Votto this offseason. :)

Eric_the_Red
07-31-2011, 05:21 PM
What is worse: no moves or overpaying for the sake of making a move?

Brutus
07-31-2011, 05:26 PM
What is worse: no moves or overpaying for the sake of making a move?

Do you consider James Shields making a move for sake of making a move? He's under contract for 3 1/3 more seasons at an affordable price, FYI...

It just seems there's a lot of rhyme or reason to making such a move.

REDblooded
07-31-2011, 05:34 PM
Do you consider James Shields making a move for sake of making a move? He's under contract for 3 1/3 more seasons at an affordable price, FYI...

It just seems there's a lot of rhyme or reason to making such a move.

Did Shields get moved?

IslandRed
07-31-2011, 05:34 PM
Do you consider James Shields making a move for sake of making a move? He's under contract for 3 1/3 more seasons at an affordable price, FYI...

It just seems there's a lot of rhyme or reason to making such a move.

Coincidentally, those are the exact same reasons it's a bad idea for Tampa to trade him. There's only one thing that makes it a good idea, and that's for the other team to invite the Rays to back up a truck and take what they want.

paulrichjr
07-31-2011, 05:39 PM
I get all that. But therein lies the problem... I don't believe anyone should have been untouchable.

Not in this situation, where they could get a stud pitcher for the next 3 1/3 years at an affordable price...



OK this is a huge leap. Not one team got the "stud pitcher for the next 3 1/3 years at an affordable price

IF he was available for an affordable price do you not think at least one team would have gotten him?

I would have loved to have gotten Shields. He was the only one that I wanted that was discussed but I think it is very revealing that no one else got him either. Either he wasn't available or it was not an affordable price.

redsmetz
07-31-2011, 05:39 PM
Coincidentally, those are the exact same reasons it's a bad idea for Tampa to trade him. There's only one thing that makes it a good idea, and that's for the other team to invite the Rays to back up a truck and take what they want.

This has been my beef for several years. We propose trades here that essentially do exactly you stated. The Bedard situation is a perfect example of not jumping just to jump. This season is very likely not going to have a post-season for us. If there was something that could have been done that would have improved the club long term, then do it. But not at the price of overpaying at this particulary juncture. I'd rather they save these chips for the off-season.

corkedbat
07-31-2011, 05:39 PM
Maybe they're not just excuses. Maybe in Walt's mind they are legitimate reasons. Bottomline thought he didn;t get anything done and hasn't since he took the reigns. Mayne it's not his fault - the other kids didn't play nice. Maybe he can't get it done at all!

The question now becomes, how long do they weight until they give someone else a shot?


And no Bavasi's either!

corkedbat
07-31-2011, 05:43 PM
This has been my beef for several years. We propose trades here that essentially do exactly you stated. The Bedard situation is a perfect example of not jumping just to jump. This season is very likely not going to have a post-season for us. If there was something that could have been done that would have improved the club long term, then do it. But not at the price of overpaying at this particulary juncture. I'd rather they save these chips for the off-season.

I won't say your wrong, but again, when is it time to say enough stagnation? These sames needs were there last offseason and he ignored them completely. At some time there has to come a point when you say enough excuses - get it done or get gone.

The Operator
07-31-2011, 05:48 PM
I'm starting to think Walt Jocketty doesn't own a cell phone. But I can assure you, he WAS furiously negotiating right up until the final minute.

http://www.imrdb.org/images/9/94/Simpsons.8.12.c.jpg

The Voice of IH
07-31-2011, 05:53 PM
You know I am honestly ok with this. I said it before the Reds are in contention with what they have. And they have not even scratched the surface of what they can be. Obviously a terrible series vs the Mets did not help but I truly feel all the Reds need to do is get within 2 or 3 games by mid August and they will be in a race with a good lineup and excellent pitching (minus Arroyo)

AtomicDumpling
07-31-2011, 05:56 PM
What is worse: no moves or overpaying for the sake of making a move?

Luckily those are not the only two options.

Making a fair, balanced trade is an option the Reds have failed to deliver for a long time now.

Having a GM that could entice another team into overpaying for our players would be nice too.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-31-2011, 05:57 PM
Maybe Walt holed up in Mike Brown's wireless room at Paul Brown Stadium and kept up to date on trade deadline happenings via the ticker ...

http://marconigraph.com/titanic/wireless/marconi.gif

paulrichjr
07-31-2011, 06:02 PM
Luckily those are not the only two options.

Making a fair, balanced trade is an option the Reds have failed to deliver for a long time now.

Having a GM that could entice another team into overpaying for our players would be nice too.

A couple of things I heard on MLB radio. Dan O'Dowd stated that almost every team that talked to him tried to overly win the trade instead of trying to do things to help both teams. Now personally I think he absolutely beat up on the Indians but he stated that he felt the trade helped the Indians a lot now and helped him later. The Indians didn't try to beat him bad.

Also, and I didn't hear this but I did hear the announcers discuss it afterwards...he stated that Jimenez was a number 3 starter.... (They stated that was very revealing of what the Rockies really thought about Jimenez). They (the announcers) went on to suggest that the Rockies were very frustrated with Jimenez. Why again would we want to top the Indians offer?

kaldaniels
07-31-2011, 06:10 PM
I truly believe looking back in 2 years, the Indians will regret making this trade.

Not to say they shouldn't try to "go for it", but when all is said and done, the Rockies will be looking pretty.

GADawg
07-31-2011, 06:13 PM
not likely to happen but if Bruce starts playing to his RZ potential, Votto stays hot, Arroyo returns to form(though admittedly always a scary form), and Stubbs keep getting on base it'll be like "we" made big time deadline deals. gotta beat those bad teams to death boys

1990REDS
07-31-2011, 06:42 PM
Anyone else curious of how today would have been if we would have won 2 or 3 games against the Mets last week?

HokieRed
07-31-2011, 06:45 PM
I truly believe looking back in 2 years, the Indians will regret making this trade.

Not to say they shouldn't try to "go for it", but when all is said and done, the Rockies will be looking pretty.

I think the Tribe's regret will begin sooner.

Larkin Fan
07-31-2011, 06:46 PM
I'd rather see the Reds make no deals at all than make one just for the sake of making one and overpay in the process.

WVRedsFan
07-31-2011, 06:47 PM
I'm a firm believer in growing your owmn pitchers and avoiding overpaying in the market. Getting burned happens early and often. For every Roy Halladay or Cliff Lee, there is a Barry Zito or Eric Bedard. The Reds successful pitching came from the farm (Cueto, Leake, Bailey, etc). The big contracts of Harang and Arroyo have been iffy at best. That's why I wanted a left fielder who could hit instead of the same old mediocre or trash bin types we've had. We didn't emphasize that apparently, so here we are. I now guess that .500 is what is going to be the best we can hope for. While Walt was out there lusting after aces, the rest of the division improved themselves. I find that a sentence to 4th place unless Pittsburgh falls on it's face, because the other two teams always find a way to win. Frustrating.

OldXOhio
07-31-2011, 07:51 PM
I'm starting to think Walt Jocketty doesn't own a cell phone. But I can assure you, he WAS furiously negotiating right up until the final minute.

http://www.imrdb.org/images/9/94/Simpsons.8.12.c.jpg

Our GM outworked yours. Take that Cardinals, Pirates and Brewers!

RANDY IN INDY
07-31-2011, 07:58 PM
I'm not unhappy that the Reds didn't trade for any of the players that were traded. Don't think that any of them would have put them over the top this season and there were a lot of question marks with some that were talked about, going forward. The one player that I liked was Shields, but ultimately, he was not moved. I'm not giving up on this season, but come the off season, the Reds are in a much better position by not trading away the prospects. and having the pieces to get something that will truly strengthen the club for 2012. It's up to Walt, at that time, to improve the ballclub, as it definitely has a few holes that need to be addressed.

IslandRed
07-31-2011, 08:03 PM
Anyone else curious of how today would have been if we would have won 2 or 3 games against the Mets last week?

I think it made a difference. It certainly took all the rental players and complementary-part trades out of the discussion, leaving only the big-game hunting for next year.

Tony Cloninger
07-31-2011, 08:04 PM
Remember when ATL used to figure out a way to separate the Melvin Nieves and RoB Bells from the real prospects? Is it not time for some people in this FO to do the same?

Slyder
07-31-2011, 08:08 PM
Remember when ATL used to figure out a way to separate the Melvin Nieves and RoB Bells from the real prospects? Is it not time for some people in this FO to do the same?

+1.

_Sir_Charles_
07-31-2011, 08:27 PM
Anyone else curious of how today would have been if we would have won 2 or 3 games against the Mets last week?

I would hope it wouldn't have looked ANY different. But who knows.

_Sir_Charles_
07-31-2011, 08:47 PM
Our GM outworked yours. Take that Cardinals, Pirates and Brewers!

Let's look at that again.

The Cards brought in...

Rafael Furcal. The aging SS who's OPS this season is.... .520
Edwin Jackson. Middle to back of rotation.
Corey Patterson. Ummm...what?
Octavio Dotel. Isn't he retired?
Mark Rzypkdhgkty. Can I buy a vowel? Actually, he's pretty solid.

They sent out Rasmus (big mistake), PJ Walters, Trevor Miller, Brian Tallet & AA of Alex Castellanos. I don't see these moves as improving the club AT ALL. This is a sideways move or backwards at best IMO.

The Brewers brought in...

Frankie Rodriguez. Solid improvement...but he's going to set up?
Jerry Hairston Jr.
Felipe Lopez. A couple of bench bats?

No clue what it's going to cost them, because it's mostly PTBNL and a bunch of them. KRod is a nice addition I guess, but everything else is just fodder. And depending on who's getting sent out, this could be a VERY bad deal.

The Pirates brought in...

Derrek Lee. He's a shell of his former self. .706 OPS this year.
Ryan Ludwick. .674 OPS. Thank you Buccos.

It cost the Pirates a high A 1b Aaron Baker and some PTBNL. For a team that doesn't have much veteran presence...I guess it's a decent move. But hardly team changing ones.


So I'm not sure just how much congratulating we should be doing for the other NL Central GM's.

Walt...he shipped out Gomes to make room for better options and to take the Gomes option away from Dusty's misuse of him. This is a win in my books.

Roy Tucker
07-31-2011, 08:56 PM
I'd still liked to have seen a LF bat come in, but I'm OK. The withered Gomes branch got pruned off which will help the main trunk. Hopefull Dusty will ride a hot Lewis for a bit and spell him with Alonso or Hermida when he cools.

Plus, I haven't given up on this year. I think we're ready to see a hot streak.

Eric_the_Red
07-31-2011, 08:56 PM
Luckily those are not the only two options.

Making a fair, balanced trade is an option the Reds have failed to deliver for a long time now.

Having a GM that could entice another team into overpaying for our players would be nice too.

Two years is a long time?

If only Walt were a Jedi master. He could just wave his hand and "entice" other teams to overpay.

Tony Cloninger
07-31-2011, 09:00 PM
I recall when Scott Scudder and Jack Armstrong were crown jewels.

At least they got one very good year from Greg Swindell for them.

AtomicDumpling
07-31-2011, 09:10 PM
Two years is a long time?

If only Walt were a Jedi master. He could just wave his hand and "entice" other teams to overpay.

Yes, two years is a long time between good trades.

Other GMs find ways to improve their teams without using the Force.

Eric_the_Red
07-31-2011, 09:15 PM
Yes, two years is a long time between good trades.

Other GMs find ways to improve their teams without using the Force.

I'd be interested to see your list of the teams that have made "good trades" each of the last two years.

Tony Cloninger
07-31-2011, 09:19 PM
Was Carlos Quentin a thought? Could he have been had for Hesiey, Wood or Volquez and Fisher or Thompson?

I(heart)Freel
07-31-2011, 09:41 PM
Only disappointed Walt didn't get something for Ramon. That's my only beef with this deadline.

The club can still use its deep minor league resources to get what it needs in the offseason. Once the Rays do their player evals and look at their budgets they could still deal someone like Shields before Opening Day 2012. The Reds will be on speed dial.

Raisor
07-31-2011, 09:43 PM
Only disappointed Walt didn't get something for Ramon. That's my only beef with this deadline.

The club can still use its deep minor league resources to get what it needs in the offseason. .

Why didn't they use the deep minor league resources to get what it needed this past off season?

I(heart)Freel
07-31-2011, 09:53 PM
Why didn't they use the deep minor league resources to get what it needed this past off season?

Yonder didn't have half his current value then. Grandal wasn't trade-able. Mes needed another season in Louisville to prove he's ready to both the Reds and others. Same with Cozart. Volquez was the opening day starter. Injuries set back the Red's rotation depth. Etc.

MikeS21
07-31-2011, 10:12 PM
It's hard to imagine, but Walt has been down this road before. He knows how to make deadline deals. He has made plenty of them. He knows what he is doing.

So if he doesn't trade for Jiminez because the Rox are demanding Votto, Mesoraco, and Cueto in return, and they won't discuss a lesser deal because O'Dowd feels everyone was offering unfair deals, I'm glad Walt stood pat.

Mario-Rijo
07-31-2011, 10:15 PM
I have been saying for a long time Walt is really, really good at manipulating the fans and media and I still stand by that statement. Let's see, the one trade the guy did make (for Rolen) there was no chatter about, not from him or anyone else. But lots of chatter from him and others about many other trades that were never consummated. Interesting that a guy is given so much credit for effort when stating publicly time and again that we need this or need that or would like to do something and yet he never gets anything done during those occasions. Heck people even create excuses for him that never comes out of his mouth. 1 + 1 equals 2, we just got snookered again.

As a matter of fact you never hear about any deals he makes in advance, nice telltale for the future. If you hear about the Reds/Walt in on somebody you can forget it, chalk it up to propoganda. Start looking at others who make sense only in his and Dusty's minds.

PuffyPig
07-31-2011, 10:19 PM
I recall when Scott Scudder and Jack Armstrong were crown jewels.

At least they got one very good year from Greg Swindell for them.

And a playoff spot and a World Series from Armstrong.

The Reds don't make the playoffs that year without Armstrong, who stated the all star game that year.

kaldaniels
07-31-2011, 10:23 PM
And a playoff spot and a World Series from Armstrong.

The Reds don't make the playoffs that year without Armstrong, who stated the all star game that year.

Debatable. The Reds won the division by 5 and were 16-11 in GS by Jack. Who's to say.

Tony Cloninger
07-31-2011, 10:58 PM
And a playoff spot and a World Series from Armstrong.

The Reds don't make the playoffs that year without Armstrong, who stated the all star game that year.

He helped with the fast start.,...then after that I think he could barely go 5 innings after the AS break and was out of the rotation by end of August.

OldXOhio
07-31-2011, 11:01 PM
Let's look at that again.

The Cards brought in...

Rafael Furcal. The aging SS who's OPS this season is.... .520
Edwin Jackson. Middle to back of rotation.
Corey Patterson. Ummm...what?
Octavio Dotel. Isn't he retired?
Mark Rzypkdhgkty. Can I buy a vowel? Actually, he's pretty solid.

They sent out Rasmus (big mistake), PJ Walters, Trevor Miller, Brian Tallet & AA of Alex Castellanos. I don't see these moves as improving the club AT ALL. This is a sideways move

or backwards at best IMO.

The Brewers brought in...

Frankie Rodriguez. Solid improvement...but he's going to set up?
Jerry Hairston Jr.
Felipe Lopez. A couple of bench bats?

No clue what it's going to cost them, because it's mostly PTBNL and a bunch of them. KRod is a nice addition I guess, but everything else is just fodder. And depending on who's getting

sent out, this could be a VERY bad deal.

The Pirates brought in...

Derrek Lee. He's a shell of his former self. .706 OPS this year.
Ryan Ludwick. .674 OPS. Thank you Buccos.

It cost the Pirates a high A 1b Aaron Baker and some PTBNL. For a team that doesn't have

much veteran presence...I guess it's a decent move. But hardly team changing ones.

So I'm not sure just how much congratulating we should be doing for the other NL Central GM's.

Walt...he shipped out Gomes to make room for better options and to take the Gomes option

away from Dusty's misuse of him. This is a win in my books.

Are we allowed to consider last winter's activity by the Reds and some of its rivals in your breakdown as well?

MikeS21
07-31-2011, 11:10 PM
Let's look at that again.

So I'm not sure just how much congratulating we should be doing for the other NL Central GM's.

Walt...he shipped out Gomes to make room for better options and to take the Gomes option away from Dusty's misuse of him. This is a win in my books.
This entire post may very well best sum up the jest of all the trades.

I just don't think anybody else in the NL Central accomplished anything. Clearing Gomes off the roster may have been the absolute best move in the entire division.

Heath
08-01-2011, 12:31 AM
Wonder if Miguel Cairo's rant after the Thursday loss against the Mets would qualify as a deadline rear-chewing. Baseball is not a rah-rah, instant gratification sport like football, but Cairo's upfrontness might light a fire.

kaldaniels
08-01-2011, 12:41 AM
This entire post may very well best sum up the jest of all the trades.

I just don't think anybody else in the NL Central accomplished anything. Clearing Gomes off the roster may have been the absolute best move in the entire division.

You obviously haven't met MikeTheirry, MikeS21...he will enlighten you....:laugh:

Who am I kidding I wish the Reds were only 2.5 out. ;)

fearofpopvol1
08-01-2011, 01:12 AM
I'm torn. On the one hand, I'm thrilled we didn't try to go for Bourn or Ludwick or a player in that vein that was essentially a rental. But, to have landed a Jiminez or Shields type would've have really been good beyond this year. I wonder if we may still see a waiver deal in August? I'm sure hoping so.

Slyder
08-01-2011, 01:39 AM
Are we allowed to consider last winter's activity by the Reds and some of its rivals in your breakdown as well?

I would say so because it has more to do with how this season has progressed as anything that happened before the deadline.

Mario-Rijo
08-01-2011, 02:44 AM
Let's look at that again.

The Cards brought in...

Rafael Furcal. The aging SS who's OPS this season is.... .520
Edwin Jackson. Middle to back of rotation.
Corey Patterson. Ummm...what?
Octavio Dotel. Isn't he retired?
Mark Rzypkdhgkty. Can I buy a vowel? Actually, he's pretty solid.

They sent out Rasmus (big mistake), PJ Walters, Trevor Miller, Brian Tallet & AA of Alex Castellanos. I don't see these moves as improving the club AT ALL. This is a sideways move or backwards at best IMO.

The Brewers brought in...

Frankie Rodriguez. Solid improvement...but he's going to set up?
Jerry Hairston Jr.
Felipe Lopez. A couple of bench bats?

No clue what it's going to cost them, because it's mostly PTBNL and a bunch of them. KRod is a nice addition I guess, but everything else is just fodder. And depending on who's getting sent out, this could be a VERY bad deal.

The Pirates brought in...

Derrek Lee. He's a shell of his former self. .706 OPS this year.
Ryan Ludwick. .674 OPS. Thank you Buccos.

It cost the Pirates a high A 1b Aaron Baker and some PTBNL. For a team that doesn't have much veteran presence...I guess it's a decent move. But hardly team changing ones.


So I'm not sure just how much congratulating we should be doing for the other NL Central GM's.

Walt...he shipped out Gomes to make room for better options and to take the Gomes option away from Dusty's misuse of him. This is a win in my books.

I think this is mostly a fair representation of the deals. Though I think you aren't giving any creedence whatsoever to change of scenery for Ludwick and Lee whose numbers could improve due to park/division factors. And Edwin Jackson can come in at any time and pitch like an ace so I think he gets a bit of a bad rap, he is about like a Lohse type of guy who has greater ability than production but I always felt Lohse was a #3 or better and the same for Edwin, not a back end guy at all IMO. And his production could always improve and the odds of that happening increase with a deal to Duncan. Duncan may not be as great at reclamation projects as we thought but he has a pretty solid track record with guys who have some talent.

However since this is a Reds forum it would stand to reason that I (and many others) would only be pleased or disappointed by what they do/don't do. And since the teams you mention are really the chased but not the chasers then they don't have to do as much. That they did anything can have a positive impact on their players even if the acquisitions don't produce.

I don't mind being a bit conservative (I can certainly understand why a small market team would be) but this regime we have is borderline ridiculous with how they watch pennies and/or have other failings which prevent them from making acquisitions. I think it's a combination of mediocre at best talent evaluations, personal F.O. shortcomings like overrating such things as chemistry and budget hawking. Whatever it is it needs addressed and unfortunately as much as I think Bob Castellini means well he doesn't appear equipped to evaluate baseball men himself. If it ain't one thing (Lindner) in Redsland it's another (Bob).

redsmetz
08-01-2011, 05:00 AM
Anyone else curious of how today would have been if we would have won 2 or 3 games against the Mets last week?

Couple that with the two blown saves in Milwaukee and you're absolutely right. Frankly there have been a host of games in the "we should have won" category that give this season a whole different look.

MikeS21
08-01-2011, 08:29 AM
Couple that with the two blown saves in Milwaukee and you're absolutely right. Frankly there have been a host of games in the "we should have won" category that give this season a whole different look.
Actually, you can boil this entire season down to about 8-9 bad innings, and this team is in first place.

Roy Tucker
08-01-2011, 08:54 AM
Actually, you can boil this entire season down to about 8-9 bad innings, and this team is in first place.

Besides that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? ;)

I do agree with you though. All along, I've felt this team has played better than its record. Bad luck, bad timing, brain farts, and some head-scratching tactical decisions by Dusty has this team snake-bit in 1-run games.

I keep waiting for that to turn around. A hot streak would get the Reds past the Pirates and Cards and then they could put their sights on the Brewers. Its August now though. The urgency cog just got ratcheted up a couple clicks. Let's go, boys.

I(heart)Freel
08-01-2011, 10:44 AM
The Reds committed to a long-term plan of growing talent a few years ago. To bag that philosophy now would be short-sighted. It's selling Apple stock when it passed $100. Yea, you made a profit. But there's a lot more to be made.

I'm as bummed as the next person that the Reds didn't land that superstar at the deadline but only they know what it would have cost. And they are the ones with the plan. If they decided Mes is untouchable because he projects to truly help this team (for a fraction of his value's true cost) from 2012-17, then I respect that.

Someone else mentioned earlier (or on another thread) that this board was equally outraged at deadline-inactivity in the past, when the cost would have been Votto, Cueto or Bruce. The Reds did absolutely the right thing then. And therefore, they get my vote of confidence now.

I'm in it for the long haul.

HokieRed
08-01-2011, 11:40 AM
The Reds committed to a long-term plan of growing talent a few years ago. To bag that philosophy now would be short-sighted. It's selling Apple stock when it passed $100. Yea, you made a profit. But there's a lot more to be made.

I'm as bummed as the next person that the Reds didn't land that superstar at the deadline but only they know what it would have cost. And they are the ones with the plan. If they decided Mes is untouchable because he projects to truly help this team (for a fraction of his value's true cost) from 2012-17, then I respect that.

Someone else mentioned earlier (or on another thread) that this board was equally outraged at deadline-inactivity in the past, when the cost would have been Votto, Cueto or Bruce. The Reds did absolutely the right thing then. And therefore, they get my vote of confidence now.

I'm in it for the long haul.


Agree. This team has been improved tremendously over the last seven years by intelligent player acquisition and use of the draft, especially the critical first two rounds. If you can then make a smart shorter term acquisition, then you should, and I trust WJ was out there trying to do just that. But to compromise the real source of the team's becoming competitive for one of those players seems to me very destructive. I think we have no way of evaluating WJ's supposed "inactivity" unless we know a lot more than we do about the specifics of various deals.

wolfboy
08-01-2011, 11:43 AM
Agree. This team has been improved tremendously over the last seven years by intelligent player acquisition and use of the draft, especially the critical first two rounds. If you can then make a smart shorter term acquisition, then you should, and I trust WJ was out there trying to do just that. But to compromise the real source of the team's becoming competitive for one of those players seems to me very destructive. I think we have no way of evaluating WJ's supposed "inactivity" unless we know a lot more than we do about the specifics of various deals.

Great post. :beerme:

Caveat Emperor
08-01-2011, 01:00 PM
I'm torn. On the one hand, I'm thrilled we didn't try to go for Bourn or Ludwick or a player in that vein that was essentially a rental. But, to have landed a Jiminez or Shields type would've have really been good beyond this year. I wonder if we may still see a waiver deal in August? I'm sure hoping so.

Shields was probably never seriously available -- it's not like he moved in one of those "D'oh, why couldn't we have done that?!" moves.

And, frankly, I'm OK with us missing Jimenez. There has to be a reason Colorado sold him when he had such a team-friendly deal over the next 3 years.

fearofpopvol1
08-01-2011, 01:10 PM
Shields was probably never seriously available -- it's not like he moved in one of those "D'oh, why couldn't we have done that?!" moves.

And, frankly, I'm OK with us missing Jimenez. There has to be a reason Colorado sold him when he had such a team-friendly deal over the next 3 years.

I think with the Rays being out of their race, Shields would have been available. The Rays are looking to improve for next year and beyond as well.

RANDY IN INDY
08-01-2011, 01:44 PM
I would have liked Shields and he may have been available, but the cost may have been prohibitive and a stupid deal for the Reds. I don't have a problem if that was the case.

Caveat Emperor
08-01-2011, 02:03 PM
I think with the Rays being out of their race, Shields would have been available. The Rays are looking to improve for next year and beyond as well.

With the number of teams "in" on Jimenez, I find it hard to believe that if Shields was really available that he wouldn't have wound up on some other team.

And really, with Shields contract being what it is, the Rays can afford to hold onto him and move him in the offseason if they need to.

IslandRed
08-01-2011, 02:18 PM
I think with the Rays being out of their race, Shields would have been available. The Rays are looking to improve for next year and beyond as well.

The Rays have Shields under control through 2014 if they want him, so if they want to improve for the next few years, trading him is a big initial step in the wrong direction unless they can pull a bank job on the other club.

Now, that presumes talent is the only consideration. With the Rays, that's not always the case. They may end up under some budget pressure for 2012 and decide even his reasonable contract doesn't fit. If he goes on the market for real, the Reds need to be all over it.

Reds/Flyers Fan
08-01-2011, 02:49 PM
An interesting comparison was posted on Lance McAllister's blog today regarding the one Walt trade that everyone gives him credit for, including me.

But this is interesting:

Since Aug 1, 2010
Rolen .246 in 423 AB's with 7 HR and .388 SLG
Encarnacion .264 in 428 AB's with 20 HR and .474 SLG

AtomicDumpling
08-01-2011, 02:54 PM
Still hearing lots of excuses for the Reds' inability to improve the team for years now. I guess mediocrity is good enough for many Reds fans.

The NL Central is very weak again this year. The division champ is likely going to be an 85-90 win team. This division was eminently winnable this season if the Reds had even slightly improved the team in the offseason or early during the season. Instead they remained idle month after month and continually squandered every opportunity to improve the team while their mediocre competition made upgrades in the winter, spring and summer.

The Cardinals, Brewers and even the Pirates all found ways to revamp their lineups, plug gaps and make upgrades even while being hit harder by injuries than the Reds have. The Reds' inaction has left them in the dust once again.

AtomicDumpling
08-01-2011, 02:59 PM
An interesting comparison was posted on Lance McAllister's blog today regarding the one Walt trade that everyone gives him credit for, including me.

But this is interesting:

Since Aug 1, 2010
Rolen .246 in 423 AB's with 7 HR and .388 SLG
Encarnacion .264 in 428 AB's with 20 HR and .474 SLG

Very good point. Encarnacion has been hitting well indeed. If you factor in Rolen's great defense and veteran leadership intangibles contrasted with EE's horrific defense it tilts things back in favor of Rolen in my opinion. But when you factor in Rolen's higher salary and the fact we gave up Zach Stewart in the deal as well you can definitely make a good case that the trade didn't work out as favorably as we were thinking last year when Rolen was playing well.

kaldaniels
08-01-2011, 03:02 PM
An interesting comparison was posted on Lance McAllister's blog today regarding the one Walt trade that everyone gives him credit for, including me.

But this is interesting:

Since Aug 1, 2010
Rolen .246 in 423 AB's with 7 HR and .388 SLG
Encarnacion .264 in 428 AB's with 20 HR and .474 SLG

Not totally suprised to see that, Rolen fell off a cliff late last season. Probably be best though, to show their stats since the trade, not just the last year.

Brutus
08-01-2011, 03:03 PM
Not totally suprised to see that, Rolen fell off a cliff late last season. Probably be best though, to show their stats since the trade, not just the last year.

Yeah it's cherry-picking if I've ever seen it; especially since it's unlikely the Reds make the playoffs last year if not for having Scott Rolen given his production the first four months of the season.

Always Red
08-01-2011, 03:07 PM
An interesting comparison was posted on Lance McAllister's blog today regarding the one Walt trade that everyone gives him credit for, including me.

But this is interesting:

Since Aug 1, 2010
Rolen .246 in 423 AB's with 7 HR and .388 SLG
Encarnacion .264 in 428 AB's with 20 HR and .474 SLG

Rolen has played 3B exclusively.

Edwin played 3B all of Aug and Sept 2010, but this year has DH'd 39 games, played 3B for 31 games, and 1B for 13 games.

Edwin is no longer a full time 3B; so I think comparison is a moot point.

Everyone knows Edwin can hit- the reason he is no longer a Red (or maybe even in the NL) is because he couldn't play 3B.

Kc61
08-01-2011, 03:20 PM
Still hearing lots of excuses for the Reds' inability to improve the team for years now. I guess mediocrity is good enough for many Reds fans.

The NL Central is very weak again this year. The division champ is likely going to be an 85-90 win team. This division was eminently winnable this season if the Reds had even slightly improved the team in the offseason or early during the season. Instead they remained idle month after month and continually squandered every opportunity to improve the team while their mediocre competition made upgrades in the winter, spring and summer.

The Cardinals, Brewers and even the Pirates all found ways to revamp their lineups, plug gaps and make upgrades even while being hit harder by injuries than the Reds have. The Reds' inaction has left them in the dust once again.

Yeah, I agree.

Here's what I fear. The Reds can't/won't trade Alonso, Wood, Frazier, Francisco, Sappelt, Valaika, Grandal, Soto.

These guys get older, readier. Their agents insist that they play major league ball or be traded. Or their arbitration years get close.

Reds can't find room for some on the 25-man roster. Others make the roster but sit on the bench, to the disdain of the player and his agent.

Reds won't pull the trigger on a big deal.

So Reds wind up trading these guys off, piecemeal, for lower level prospects who are a long way from helping.

Reds need a plan for these prospects. Probably have a plan for Mes, but beyond him who knows?

A lot of talent could disappear without a meaningful return if they don't move some of these guys, or instead make them regular players in appropriate situations.

remdog
08-01-2011, 03:21 PM
Walt is being prudent about laying a long term foundation for this team. He, apparently, feels that if the players perform to their percieved ability, this team has a legitimate chance at winning the division/making the playoffs. Why mortgage the future for a 'rent-a-wreck' for two months? I.E, Beltran hasn't exactly been lighting things up in San Francisco so far.

Personally, I agree with Walt.

Dusty, OTOH, I'd punt him in the next 10 minutes if I could.

Rem

TRF
08-01-2011, 03:22 PM
I've been very critical of Jocketty. I think standing pat was absolutely the right move here. I think Cleveland will be kicking themselves over this for a decade. That said, IF you believe you have the right players in your system then put them in the right roles.

I don't believe Alonso is the answer in LF, and Dusty now has to show loyalty to Heisey. It's how Dusty operates. But he needs to go all strict platoon here, just as he was starting to do with Gomes. Alonso has to be in there against every RH pitcher, both to show what he has and prove his worth.

If the Reds drop to 10 back, Chapman has to be stretched out immediately. He needs 2-3 starts in Sept. as a Red too, not just as a Louisville Bat. I'd also suggest winter ball, maybe in the DR.

Bailey has 2 months to show he can stay healthy and progress as a pitcher before the Reds need to find him a new home.

If Willis finishes the season in the rotation, that's about 9-10 starts. If his numbers are strong, good peripherals, then the Reds need to offer him a contract with the idea planted that they helped him more than the Tigers, Diamondbacks and Giants organizations did. That Dusty and Walt had/have faith in him. His arm is not in question, just his head, but remember, Willis only threw 73 innings in the majors and minors combined. He's just over 98 IP right now, and could throw another 60 innings. He's only 29, but this is the best he's thrown since 2006. If he is now becoming a #3 starter, a legit #3 with flashes, he'll improve the rotation greatly.

I think everyone believes Arroyo's year is largely due to the mono. I think he rebounds next year, but if the Reds get to 10 back, I'd shut him down or put him in the pen for the remainder of the season. He's killing the club and the Reds need to evaluate Wood and Chapman as starters at the MLB level.

Todd Frazier over Cairo. Everyday.Cairo should be there for spot starts ONLY, to allow Frazier perspective on his game, and to let him see a veteran in action. Next year, Rolen to the bench.

Mesoraco should be in tandem with someone in 2011.

Just my 2 cents.

Kc61
08-01-2011, 03:23 PM
Walt is being prudent about laying a long term foundation for this team. He, apparently, feels that if the players perform to their percieved ability, this team has a legitimate chance at winning the division/making the playoffs. Why mortgage the future for a 'rent-a-wreck' for two months? I.E, Beltran hasn't exactly been lighting things up in San Francisco so far.

Personally, I agree with Walt.

Dusty, OTOH, I'd punt him in the next 10 minutes if I could.

Rem


Classic straw man argument. So the upside here was to trade good prospects for a "rent a wreck" for two months?

Or was the objective to acquire controllable players who would enhance the club.

I think the latter.

remdog
08-01-2011, 03:28 PM
No straw man argument at all. Personal observation and objectiveness.

Rem

Plus Plus
08-01-2011, 03:48 PM
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2011/08/01/were-the-reds-working-on-something-big/


A reader tipped me a while back that he has a friend in baseball who told him the Reds were talking to the Blue Jays about a trade Jose Bautista-for-Joey Votto trade. The Reds would have had to kick in a prospect as well.

I get tips like that from time to time. I usually dismiss them. But the fact that the Blue Jays sent a scout to Dayton to specifically watch Daniel Corcino, probably the Reds best pitching prospect, tells me they were talking trade with the Reds.

AtomicDumpling
08-01-2011, 03:49 PM
Classic straw man argument. So the upside here was to trade good prospects for a "rent a wreck" for two months?

Or was the objective to acquire controllable players who would enhance the club.

I think the latter.

It seems the people defending the Reds inability to find a way to improve the team want to paint a scenario where the only other alternative is to "mortgage the future and overpay for a rental".

Brutus
08-01-2011, 04:00 PM
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2011/08/01/were-the-reds-working-on-something-big/

That's very interesting but I doubt its veracity. The Reds were looking at Jason Frasor and a few other guys from the Blue Jays, so that probably explains the scouts being in attendance.

fearofpopvol1
08-01-2011, 04:02 PM
With the number of teams "in" on Jimenez, I find it hard to believe that if Shields was really available that he wouldn't have wound up on some other team.

And really, with Shields contract being what it is, the Rays can afford to hold onto him and move him in the offseason if they need to.

I think the best suitors for the Rays outside of the Reds would have been the Yanks and Bo Sox, a place he wouldn't have been traded to. I suppose St. Louis could have tried to of made a splash, but their cupboard is a lot more bare than ours is.

fearofpopvol1
08-01-2011, 04:04 PM
The Rays have Shields under control through 2014 if they want him, so if they want to improve for the next few years, trading him is a big initial step in the wrong direction unless they can pull a bank job on the other club.

Now, that presumes talent is the only consideration. With the Rays, that's not always the case. They may end up under some budget pressure for 2012 and decide even his reasonable contract doesn't fit. If he goes on the market for real, the Reds need to be all over it.

Finances are always a concern for the Rays and not making the playoffs this year will solidify that. The Rays have plenty of pitching...they need bats.

remdog
08-01-2011, 04:15 PM
It seems the people defending the Reds inability to find a way to improve the team want to paint a scenario where the only other alternative is to "mortgage the future and overpay for a rental".

It seems to me that the people that are critical of the team seem to want to undercut the long-term future of the franchise. Wasn't 1976-1990 brutal enough for you? Or maybe you preferred 1990-2010.

I know I want a strong farm system with players that can step in if needed. I also know that the Reds have prospects that could be delt but we (you, me and any other poster on this board) don't know what the asking price for a particular player was. Jocketty does. I'm trusting him before I trust you.

If there is any fault here it's in Dustys' manageing and the hesitancy to move a couple of the prospects up. But, IMO, you don't give up solid players (Joey Votto who was mentioned above) or prospects like Mesaraco for the likes of detritus like Derrek Lee, Ryan Ludwig and Erik Bedard

Rem

AtomicDumpling
08-01-2011, 05:39 PM
It seems to me that the people that are critical of the team seem to want to undercut the long-term future of the franchise. Wasn't 1976-1990 brutal enough for you? Or maybe you preferred 1990-2010.

I know I want a strong farm system with players that can step in if needed. I also know that the Reds have prospects that could be delt but we (you, me and any other poster on this board) don't know what the asking price for a particular player was. Jocketty does. I'm trusting him before I trust you.

If there is any fault here it's in Dustys' manageing and the hesitancy to move a couple of the prospects up. But, IMO, you don't give up solid players (Joey Votto who was mentioned above) or prospects like Mesaraco for the likes of detritus like Derrek Lee, Ryan Ludwig and Erik Bedard

Rem

Nobody wants to undercut the long-term future of the franchise.

I haven't heard anyone suggesting we should give up Mesoraco for the likes of Lee, Ludwig or Bedard. That is a gross distortion of the position held by those of us who think the Reds could have done something to improve the team in the last two years.

You are setting up a straw man argument -- mischaracterize the position of those that disagree with you, then belittle the mischaracterization.

There are plenty of ways to improve the team without pillaging the farm system. Doing nothing while the Cardinals and Brewers improve and the Reds flounder is not working. All but one of the Reds top-notch prospects are already in the majors and the team still has a losing record. Several other teams have better players in the minors than do the Reds. Relying solely on the farm system to elevate this team into a real contender is doomed to failure. We need to supplement our farmhands with some talent from outside the organization.

RedlegJake
08-01-2011, 06:23 PM
It amazes me. Walt Jocketty has run two winning organizations before he came to Cincinnati and yet...the GMs on Redszone can do a better job than him, seemingly all day every day. They can acquire Shields for next to nothing. Jiminez would be ours for whatever they'd like to send Colorado's way. Jocketty, of course is lying to us when he says their asking price was too steep. Walt also overvalues our prospects, as we know several other teams have better players in the minors than the Reds do, so Walt just watches while the Cards and Brewers get better and better. Walt isn't even trying to get players we can control who would enhance the club. But the GMs here would get it done. Yesterday. Walt just didn't try. Don't trust the guy's winning record - his judgement - his years as a winning executive - or the year's of futility before he got here - just remember there is a switch you throw to make a trade. And he is sleeping beside it.

dougdirt
08-01-2011, 07:49 PM
It amazes me. Walt Jocketty has run two winning organizations before he came to Cincinnati and yet...the GMs on Redszone can do a better job than him, seemingly all day every day. They can acquire Shields for next to nothing. Jiminez would be ours for whatever they'd like to send Colorado's way. Jocketty, of course is lying to us when he says their asking price was too steep. Walt also overvalues our prospects, as we know several other teams have better players in the minors than the Reds do, so Walt just watches while the Cards and Brewers get better and better. Walt isn't even trying to get players we can control who would enhance the club. But the GMs here would get it done. Yesterday. Walt just didn't try. Don't trust the guy's winning record - his judgement - his years as a winning executive - or the year's of futility before he got here - just remember there is a switch you throw to make a trade. And he is sleeping beside it.

Maybe it was LaRussa in those places that made them win? Maybe it was the trainer they have had in both places that seems to be able to find that special juice for their players? Maybe it is Dave Duncan getting things out of other pitchers that no one else was able to do. Maybe it was a good combo of all of those things?

I don't mind Walt as our GM. I think he has done a solid job. I think he could have done better, but I think he could have done a lot worse too.

But the "winning record" argument is very old. Dusty has a winning record as a manager too and I think he is one of the worst managers in baseball.

AtomicDumpling
08-01-2011, 08:03 PM
Maybe it was LaRussa in those places that made them win? Maybe it was the trainer they have had in both places that seems to be able to find that special juice for their players? Maybe it is Dave Duncan getting things out of other pitchers that no one else was able to do. Maybe it was a good combo of all of those things?

I don't mind Walt as our GM. I think he has done a solid job. I think he could have done better, but I think he could have done a lot worse too.

But the "winning record" argument is very old. Dusty has a winning record as a manager too and I think he is one of the worst managers in baseball.

The Cardinals thought so highly of Jocketty that they fired him.

Mario-Rijo
08-01-2011, 09:56 PM
It amazes me. Walt Jocketty has run two winning organizations before he came to Cincinnati and yet...the GMs on Redszone can do a better job than him, seemingly all day every day. They can acquire Shields for next to nothing. Jiminez would be ours for whatever they'd like to send Colorado's way. Jocketty, of course is lying to us when he says their asking price was too steep. Walt also overvalues our prospects, as we know several other teams have better players in the minors than the Reds do, so Walt just watches while the Cards and Brewers get better and better. Walt isn't even trying to get players we can control who would enhance the club. But the GMs here would get it done. Yesterday. Walt just didn't try. Don't trust the guy's winning record - his judgement - his years as a winning executive - or the year's of futility before he got here - just remember there is a switch you throw to make a trade. And he is sleeping beside it.

Good to see you Jake, welcome back. But in true RZ fashion I'll greet you with a disagreement. But I'll leave it at that.

I(heart)Freel
08-01-2011, 11:56 PM
The Cardinals thought so highly of Jocketty that they fired him.

Visit a Cards message board in the past week and you'll see the public opinion favoring the Jocketty years to Mo's tenure.

So what was your point?

The Cards and Brewers are going all in. Walt is choosing to sit out this hand and save his bank. I think it's the smartest thing he can do. It's not a strategy for a knee-jerk, alarmist fan, but it may well be the right one in 3-5 years. Only time will tell.

OldXOhio
08-01-2011, 11:59 PM
Visit a Cards message board in the past week and you'll see the public opinion favoring the Jocketty years to Mo's tenure.

So what was your point?

The Cards and Brewers are going all in. Walt is choosing to sit out this hand and save his bank. I think it's the smartest thing he can do. It's not a strategy for a knee-jerk, alarmist fan, but it may well be the right one in 3-5 years. Only time will tell.

Because these windows of opportunity remain open for prolonged periods of time, right? I mean why win now when we can do it for the next 5 years instead.

Remind me of this philosophy again next year when the Cardinals are again in the race after blowing it all in 2011.

Reds/Flyers Fan
08-02-2011, 12:07 AM
Visit a Cards message board in the past week and you'll see the public opinion favoring the Jocketty years to Mo's tenure.

So what was your point?

The Cards and Brewers are going all in. Walt is choosing to sit out this hand and save his bank. I think it's the smartest thing he can do. It's not a strategy for a knee-jerk, alarmist fan, but it may well be the right one in 3-5 years. Only time will tell.

And in 3-5 years, Yonder Alonso may end up being the best player on a really bad fifth-place team.

If history (not to mention modern-day baseball economics) shows us anything, it's that other than the 1970s this franchise really hasn't ever sustained winning for long stretches at all. To be planning for this team to remain a viable contender through 2017-2018 is really rather unrealistic.

AtomicDumpling
08-02-2011, 12:07 AM
Visit a Cards message board in the past week and you'll see the public opinion favoring the Jocketty years to Mo's tenure.

So what was your point?

The Cards and Brewers are going all in. Walt is choosing to sit out this hand and save his bank. I think it's the smartest thing he can do. It's not a strategy for a knee-jerk, alarmist fan, but it may well be the right one in 3-5 years. Only time will tell.

Walt has been sitting out hand after hand for years now. It is not like fans are getting restless just because he didn't make a trade at this deadline. This inactivity goes much further back than that.

How long do we have to give him between trades before we can no longer be accused of knee-jerk reactions? 6 months? A year? 2 years? 3 years? It has now been two years since Walt's last meaningful trade.

I have to believe a skilled General Manager could creatively find a way to at least slightly improve the team once a year at a minimum.

Reds/Flyers Fan
08-02-2011, 12:13 AM
Walt has been sitting out hand after hand for years now. It is not like fans are getting restless just because he didn't make a trade at this deadline. This inactivity goes much further back than that.

How long do we have to give him between trades before we can no longer be accused of knee-jerk reactions? 6 months? A year? 2 years? 3 years? It has now been two years since Walt's last meaningful trade.

I have to believe a skilled General Manager could creatively find a way to at least slightly improve the team once a year at a minimum.

Agreed.

Even if Walt didn't go for the big July 31 splash, is this team really so perfect that some minor tinkering wouldn't have done it any good?

Who knows, maybe a slight bullpen upgrade last week could have turned tonight's loss into a win. It's no secret that Logan Ondrusek isn't really all that effective right now.

AtomicDumpling
08-02-2011, 12:21 AM
Agreed.

Even if Walt didn't go for the big July 31 splash, is this team really so perfect that some minor tinkering wouldn't have done it any good?

Who knows, maybe a slight bullpen upgrade last week could have turned tonight's loss into a win. It's no secret that Logan Ondrusek isn't really all that effective right now.

Yep. It doesn't have to be a James Shields or Ubaldo Jimenez splash. Occasional upgrades or slight improvements during the off-season, during Spring Training, during the season or at the trade deadline can add up to noticeable improvement in the standings over time. Extended periods of inactivity lasting months or years give your opponents plenty of time to pass you by -- and that is exactly what has happened to the Reds. The division is very weak and it would only have taken minor adjustments for the Reds to be at the top of the NL Central if they had only made those adjustments promptly when it became apparent that changes were needed, which was months ago. Ideally the GM would be able to anticipate that changes should be made before they become apparent.

Tony Cloninger
08-02-2011, 12:22 AM
Because these windows of opportunity remain open for prolonged periods of time, right? I mean why win now when we can do it for the next 5 years instead.

Remind me of this philosophy again next year when the Cardinals are again in the race after blowing it all in 2011.


You know...I know that a lot of people here, myself as well.... really like the 1990 or love that 1990 team..... Yet we have the same scenarios playing out again BEFORE 1990....that we have going on here.

GM or GM's unwilling to make big trades.....save the crown jewels.... and if 1990 does not happen... that what a waste that was or should have been....of a good crop of players, all beacuse they vastly overrated some of their younger players.

That good crop of players contributed to 1 WS and hardly any pennant races at all, in fact in 1990 they turned a 33-12 start and then a 66-38 start into a pennant race. Besides that they were always eating the Dodgers (85/88) Giants (87), Astros (86) or Braves (92) dust most of the time by August.

When did they put it all together with only Larkin, Rijo and Morris as part of those teams left from those teams?
When they signed or traded for veteran players. Sure some were scrap heap cheap or coming off bad years (Kevin Mitchell) but at least they realized....by necessity mainly due to a poor farm system.. that they could not just sit around and hope that it happens or comes together.

I think Walt has realized that and will do better this off season and make some trades and hopefully better FA signings ...where needed.

GAC
08-02-2011, 04:30 AM
Did Shields get moved?

Exactly. When this "rumor" was started I couldn't find anything to show TB was dangling him, or why they would even consider trading him, looking at his contract.

It's nothing but pure speculation and conjecture to say that Walt didn't do enough unless we saw WHO these other teams were demanding in return.

Would have loved to had Bourn, but the Astros weren't going to trade him to a division rival and, from what I've read, they therefore put a high price tag on the Reds. Worth it for a guy who was probably going to walk into FA after next season?

The Reds have a well-stocked farm system no doubt. And teams that were being eyed by the Reds, IMO, were playing hardball with Walt trying to pry as many of those prospects as they could.

I have no problem with Walt not making a deal if the cost was deemed too high, or even ridiculous, from our perspective.

REDREAD
08-05-2011, 12:49 PM
The Cardinals thought so highly of Jocketty that they fired him.

And look at what they got.
Mo is a step down.
The Cardinals were an elete franchise under Walt, and for the most part, they are trending down now.

I'm glad Walt didn't trade Stubbs to rent Edwin Jackson.

Walt took a franchise that was floundering and improved it significantly.
The team overachieved last year, and now everyone's expecations are elevated. Thus the disappointment this year.

So, IMO, the Cards made a huge mistake getting rid of Walt. Their "boy wonder" made a good move signing Berkman, but that's about all I can recall now.

OldXOhio
08-05-2011, 03:44 PM
So, IMO, the Cards made a huge mistake getting rid of Walt. Their "boy wonder" made a good move signing Berkman, but that's about all I can recall now.

Matt Holliday

dougdirt
08-05-2011, 04:20 PM
And look at what they got.
Mo is a step down.
The Cardinals were an elete franchise under Walt, and for the most part, they are trending down now.

I'm glad Walt didn't trade Stubbs to rent Edwin Jackson.

Walt took a franchise that was floundering and improved it significantly.
The team overachieved last year, and now everyone's expecations are elevated. Thus the disappointment this year.

So, IMO, the Cards made a huge mistake getting rid of Walt. Their "boy wonder" made a good move signing Berkman, but that's about all I can recall now.

Can you give me an example of what Jocketty has done to improve it significantly? What player has he added that has been a significant help? Rolen? Well sure, for about 3 months. The rest of his time here, he has been terrible.

I guess we could include Chapman there as a good move. What else? The fact that he didn't trade guys counts I guess, but I wouldn't say that has significantly improved the team.

Not that I dislike Jocketty. I don't like all of his moves, but I am never going to like all of a GM's moves. But I just don't see where he has been the reason this franchise has gone where it has the last two years.

cincrazy
08-05-2011, 05:56 PM
And look at what they got.
Mo is a step down.
The Cardinals were an elete franchise under Walt, and for the most part, they are trending down now.

I'm glad Walt didn't trade Stubbs to rent Edwin Jackson.

Walt took a franchise that was floundering and improved it significantly.
The team overachieved last year, and now everyone's expecations are elevated. Thus the disappointment this year.

So, IMO, the Cards made a huge mistake getting rid of Walt. Their "boy wonder" made a good move signing Berkman, but that's about all I can recall now.

I'm not interested in Jocketty's St. Louis years. The past is the past. He did the job for the Cards. He's not doing the job well for us. Point blank. Maybe he's got a grand master plan and will surprise all of us in the end. But right now, I don't see it, and I think he's fair game to be roundly criticized.

_Sir_Charles_
08-05-2011, 05:57 PM
Can you give me an example of what Jocketty has done to improve it significantly? What player has he added that has been a significant help? Rolen? Well sure, for about 3 months. The rest of his time here, he has been terrible.

I guess we could include Chapman there as a good move. What else? The fact that he didn't trade guys counts I guess, but I wouldn't say that has significantly improved the team.

Not that I dislike Jocketty. I don't like all of his moves, but I am never going to like all of a GM's moves. But I just don't see where he has been the reason this franchise has gone where it has the last two years.

Agreed. I like Jocketty and yes he does have a good track record...but since taking over he's done little to nothing. I certainly don't point to him as why the team is where it is right now. Previous GM's have had MUCH more to do with the team's successes than Walt. FAR more.

But to expect him to wheel and deal like he did with Stl....prepare for disappointment. He's got nowhere close to the budget that he did in Stl.

Redhook
08-05-2011, 08:36 PM
I'm not interested in Jocketty's St. Louis years. The past is the past. He did the job for the Cards. He's not doing the job well for us. Point blank. Maybe he's got a grand master plan and will surprise all of us in the end. But right now, I don't see it, and I think he's fair game to be roundly criticized.

This.

Jocketty has flat-out stunk. He's done nothing. Any GM can make a trade for an aging 3rd basemen and sign young players to long-term deals. That's really not that difficult in the GM world. What has he actually done to improve the team? Nothing. Zippo. He's been the most disappointing Red, to me, over the past few years. I had much higher expectations for him, unfortunately.

Brutus
08-05-2011, 08:42 PM
I'm not interested in Jocketty's St. Louis years. The past is the past. He did the job for the Cards. He's not doing the job well for us. Point blank. Maybe he's got a grand master plan and will surprise all of us in the end. But right now, I don't see it, and I think he's fair game to be roundly criticized.

He probably deserves some criticism (and I'm the one that started this thread so certainly I'm guilty of levying some of it). But to be fair, he was the first GM in 15 seasons to get the Reds to the playoffs. Even if it wasn't all his doing, whatever combinations of circumstances existed prior to his arriving, no GM was able to accomplish such a feat and he did. So from that alone, he has to be given at least some credit.

757690
08-05-2011, 08:49 PM
It's not what has Jocketty done, it's what he hasn't done. He hasn't made any stupid trades or signings that made it impossible for the Reds to compete.

The best trades are always the ones never made.

It might sound trite, but that philosophy is what built every competitive team in my lifetime.

Kc61
08-05-2011, 09:26 PM
It's not what has Jocketty done, it's what he hasn't done. He hasn't made any stupid trades or signings that made it impossible for the Reds to compete.

The best trades are always the ones never made.

It might sound trite, but that philosophy is what built every competitive team in my lifetime.

Walt's job was to take all the young talent his predecessors brought in and make decisions on them resulting in a winning team.

Decide who stays. Trade some for proven talent. Add more good draft choices. And use all these assets to mold a winner.

Basically, Walt has sat still. That could work out long term. But I had hoped for a more active style of management.

RedLegSuperStar
08-05-2011, 09:29 PM
It's not what has Jocketty done, it's what he hasn't done. He hasn't made any stupid trades or signings that made it impossible for the Reds to compete.

The best trades are always the ones never made.

It might sound trite, but that philosophy is what built every competitive team in my lifetime.

But doing something and doing nothing are two different things. This team comes out and says they will put a winner on the field year after year; yet sit on their hands durring key times (Winter Meetings & Trade Deadlines). They have as many major league ready prospects as any team out there if not more.. but all are seemingly blocked by a position player currently at the big league level.

I ask you.. Are you content with minor league free agents and 35+ year olds clogging up major league ready talent at the AAA level? One winning season in over ten years.. might suggest not.

I'm not suggesting trading the farm or dealing untouchables.. but certain pieces can net you a big gain. Heisey, Wood, Bailey, Leake, Alonso, Grandel, Frazier, Francisco, Sappelt, Soto, & Broxberger can be plenty to fill voids and needs for this club if put in the right deal.

This team has got to have a plan set. Either you are a low level buget team like the Marlins who build around 2-3 players or you are a team not afraid to spend $90+ Million a year and put a winner out there. Players don't come here not because of the city.. they don't sign here because this team hasn't proven itself as commited to winning. This team put itself on the map last year and should of capitalized on its success by bringing in talent and continuing that trend. Instead it went and resigned its core players and signed Edgar Renteria, Dontrelle Willis, and Jeremy Hermida (All former Marlins with rings but declining production). It missed the boat and could of dealt a prospect or two and gotten something more concrete. Sign a Josh Willingham, trade for a JJ Hardy or Zack Grienke. Something; anything could of been better then the moves they've made in the past 14 months.

You can keep feeding yourself as long as we don't make dumb deals or stupid signing we are not in a bad situation. Yet we pick at the Bronson Arroyo deal and the Scott Rolen renogiating of his contract. At the time it was probably not overly favored.. but it wasn't considered bad. Every move, every signing is a gamble.. you have to be willing to take that gamble if you wish to see results.

The Yankees rebuilt there organization by going out there and getting big time talent at no cost. St. Louis isn't afraid to bring in talent and they seemingly do it every year. Boston & Philly are all in every year. Mets try but they have to because of the Yankees. If this team WANTED to win like the say they do.. they wouldn't hold back either with the wallet or the value of prospects.

AtomicDumpling
08-05-2011, 11:19 PM
It's not what has Jocketty done, it's what he hasn't done. He hasn't made any stupid trades or signings that made it impossible for the Reds to compete.

The best trades are always the ones never made.

It might sound trite, but that philosophy is what built every competitive team in my lifetime.

So why do teams have General Managers if the best way to run a team is to avoid making any moves?

AtomicDumpling
08-05-2011, 11:28 PM
Can you give me an example of what Jocketty has done to improve it significantly? What player has he added that has been a significant help? Rolen? Well sure, for about 3 months. The rest of his time here, he has been terrible.

I guess we could include Chapman there as a good move. What else? The fact that he didn't trade guys counts I guess, but I wouldn't say that has significantly improved the team.

Not that I dislike Jocketty. I don't like all of his moves, but I am never going to like all of a GM's moves. But I just don't see where he has been the reason this franchise has gone where it has the last two years.

Yeah the Rolen trade was very nice for a very short time period. The best move of Jocketty's tenure was the Freel for Ramon Hernandez trade. The signing of Aroldis Chapman may turn out to be a great deal or a bust. Jocketty paid top dollar to get Chapman spending $30+ million to get him -- basically the Reds free agent budget for multiple years. Aroldis has been exciting and has pitched very well, but he has only pitched 45 innings so far. He will have to start producing at a much greater level if he is going to come anywhere close to justifying the amount of cash Jocketty spent on him.

Jocketty has now spent 4 years at the helm of the Reds and we have precious little to show for it. He has been riding the wave of the up and coming young players that were already here when he took over. He inherited a great core and I anticipated that he would add to and upgrade that core on a regular basis. So far he has done almost nothing. I know I was hoping for much more out of Jocketty. I think he has been a major disappointment.

kaldaniels
08-06-2011, 12:27 AM
Rolen? Well sure, for about 3 months. The rest of his time here, he has been terrible.
.

I know Rolen isn't one of your boys Doug but at least acknowledge that is not true.

.765 OPS coupled with his defense over the last 2 months of 2009.

OPS no lower than .856 during the first 4 months of 2010.

I wouldn't classify any of that as "terrible"

It hasn't been pretty lately, but no way would you let such a remark slide about one of your guys Doug.

dougdirt
08-06-2011, 02:11 AM
I know Rolen isn't one of your boys Doug but at least acknowledge that is not true.

.765 OPS coupled with his defense over the last 2 months of 2009.

OPS no lower than .856 during the first 4 months of 2010.

I wouldn't classify any of that as "terrible"

It hasn't been pretty lately, but no way would you let such a remark slide about one of your guys Doug.

How about we count the trade for Rolen as a good one, but the extension of Rolen as a bad one? Is that more fair?

RedLegSuperStar
08-06-2011, 08:00 AM
How about we count the trade for Rolen as a good one, but the extension of Rolen as a bad one? Is that more fair?

I don't think the resigning should be viewed as a negative. I believe Rolen was set to make around 11 million for 2010 and they found a way to restructure it so the Reds had extra money to spend. Soon after the restructured contract the Reds signed Aroldis Chapman. Then later in spring training they signed OCab. Two keys to the playoff push. Plus if you look at the Reds record with Rolen from the August 1st 2009 to the end of the 2010 season and you might think different (122-98 .555)

kaldaniels
08-06-2011, 08:26 AM
How about we count the trade for Rolen as a good one, but the extension of Rolen as a bad one? Is that more fair?

Absolutely. :beerme:

RANDY IN INDY
08-06-2011, 08:42 AM
Will the Reds front office remain inactive this winter and tell us that a couple of the prospects that they kept are ready to step up to fill the holes in 2012?

Mario-Rijo
08-06-2011, 08:47 AM
Will the Reds front office remain inactive this winter and tell us that a couple of the prospects that they kept are ready to step up to fill the holes in 2012?

If they do they will have lost what little momentum (towards ticket sales) that they have started to see if they haven't already. They may feel pressured to do something splashy. Otherwise I'd expect just that.

RANDY IN INDY
08-06-2011, 08:55 AM
I'm walking a fine line between thinking that Walt may have made a prudent decision by not making a trade at the deadline, to thinking that it is the same old tired, cheap, tight fisted, management style that many Reds fans have grown used to.

OldXOhio
08-06-2011, 10:23 AM
NM

OldXOhio
08-06-2011, 10:48 AM
Will the Reds front office remain inactive this winter and tell us that a couple of the prospects that they kept are ready to step up to fill the holes in 2012?

What have we seen from this FO recently to make us think otherwise? If Walt wasn't willing to add to a playoff team trying to take the next step (last winter) or one screaming for a life line like this year's team, when exactly does he act? When we're cellar dwellers looking to fire sale?

dsmith421
08-06-2011, 12:23 PM
I'm walking a fine line between thinking that Walt may have made a prudent decision by not making a trade at the deadline, to thinking that it is the same old tired, cheap, tight fisted, management style that many Reds fans have grown used to.

I'm starting to mull this over myself. Last year the team was flying at the deadline and it was perhaps understandable that management didn't want to upset chemistry. Of course, they played very mediocre ball for the remainder of the season. I could probably give them a pass for this deadline as well, given that the team rolled over and died during the critical week for negotiating trades, effectively ending their chances for this season and changing the paradigm for the deadline. But this offseason there is no excuse. We don't need a heart transplant, but we do need some surgery.

LoganBuck
08-06-2011, 12:31 PM
Did I hear right yesterday that Ramon Hernandez cleared waivers? Admittedly I was driving and only caught the tail end of an ESPN OR FOX SPORTSradio guest yesterday afternoon.

If true Walt has to trade him

remdog
08-06-2011, 12:52 PM
There is a move that Walt can make right after the game today that doesn't require a wavier wire---fire Dusty. I don't think Baker was his choice but he was kind of stuck with him after the '10 season success.

Even if you have to bring in an interim manager for the rest of the season, it's something that needs correcting and it's better to get it out of the way now than wait until the winter.

Rem

IslandRed
08-06-2011, 02:51 PM
I'm starting to mull this over myself. Last year the team was flying at the deadline and it was perhaps understandable that management didn't want to upset chemistry. Of course, they played very mediocre ball for the remainder of the season. I could probably give them a pass for this deadline as well, given that the team rolled over and died during the critical week for negotiating trades, effectively ending their chances for this season and changing the paradigm for the deadline. But this offseason there is no excuse. We don't need a heart transplant, but we do need some surgery.

One minor disagreement -- last season, their winning percentage after July 31 was better than it was before.

Otherwise, you are correct -- there will be work to do, and no championitis to get in the way, so I'd like to see the work get done.

RedLegSuperStar
08-06-2011, 05:17 PM
Did I hear right yesterday that Ramon Hernandez cleared waivers? Admittedly I was driving and only caught the tail end of an ESPN OR FOX SPORTSradio guest yesterday afternoon.

If true Walt has to trade him

If thats true I agree.. but I think the Reds think they are still in it.. *sarcasm*

Reds/Flyers Fan
08-15-2011, 11:13 AM
Posted on Lance McCalister's blog:

According to Buster Olney of ESPN, Bronson Arroyo has cleared waivers.
The Reds could trade him to any team that is interested.

He is signed for 3 years at $35M through 2013.
'11: $6.5M
'12: $7.0M
'13: $6.5M
He signed an extension December 4, 2010, reworking option year in previous contract. He deferred $15M, without interest, paid through 2021, reducing present-day AAV to $28.9M (per Cot's Baseball). If traded, deferrals are voided and paid up-front

Mario-Rijo
08-15-2011, 12:20 PM
Posted on Lance McCalister's blog:

According to Buster Olney of ESPN, Bronson Arroyo has cleared waivers.
The Reds could trade him to any team that is interested.

He is signed for 3 years at $35M through 2013.
'11: $6.5M
'12: $7.0M
'13: $6.5M
He signed an extension December 4, 2010, reworking option year in previous contract. He deferred $15M, without interest, paid through 2021, reducing present-day AAV to $28.9M (per Cot's Baseball). If traded, deferrals are voided and paid up-front

Well then that ain't gonna happen.

Guacarock
08-15-2011, 01:33 PM
Well then that ain't gonna happen.

Bingo. He probably isn't going anywhere.

The only way I can see a trade happening involving Arroyo is if he agrees to waive the more onerous terms in his contract. He doesn't have much incentive to do so, as those terms provide airtight job security for him. But he might agree to some tweaking and reworking of the contract if a trade landed him in a destination where he wanted to be, say, a high-profile, big-market team like the Yankees or Red Sox.

Both appear pitching-short as they approach the playoffs, but is Arroyo the answer to their needs? Not likely, but if he strings together 3-4 spectacular starts, you never know. Stranger things have happened in baseball.

Reds1
08-15-2011, 02:03 PM
After seeing Brewers win 16 of 18 I'm glad we didn't do a deal that gets rid of the young talent for a rental. The Reds get to look at the talent and maybe can work a smarter deal with more options in the offseason. I do like some of the young players.

LoganBuck
08-15-2011, 02:17 PM
Ramon Hernandez not being traded was a bad thing. No way around it. The team is out of contention, and he is going to walk at the end of the season, and the Reds won't get squat.

Kc61
08-15-2011, 02:17 PM
After seeing Brewers win 16 of 18 I'm glad we didn't do a deal that gets rid of the young talent for a rental. The Reds get to look at the talent and maybe can work a smarter deal with more options in the offseason. I do like some of the young players.

I agree that a rental wouldn't have been wise, as I said all along.

As for the young talent, though, I have to disagree slightly. The only guy who has "wowed" is Cozart. He looks like a keeper.

I'm not sure the others have helped their trade value. Sappelt surely hasn't, he looks like a guy with little power who doesn't walk much. Not a great combination. Has skills, for sure, but has looked ordinary so far.

Alonso surely can hit, but not sure he has helped his value. His stint in the majors will only cement his reputation as a first baseman/DH without much versatility.

Frazier has power but he is hitting .212 in limited at bats. To me, the Reds were very wise to let Todd play multiple positions. His calling card will be his versatility, as a "super utility" guy with power. Has his value increased by virtue of his callup? Probably not.

While it is fun to watch these young guys play and root for them, I'm not sure overall that the Reds will get more in a trade for them now. In fact, the Reds could get less in some cases.

No, IMO, the Reds should have been more active last off-season and at the deadline. Not for rentals, surely. And, again, if the deals were unfair, then Walt was correct not to bite.

But we'll see if the Reds get any real benefit next off-season from this approach.

Kc61
08-15-2011, 02:23 PM
Ramon Hernandez not being traded was a bad thing. No way around it. The team is out of contention, and he is going to walk at the end of the season, and the Reds won't get squat.

I agree with you on Ramon. He should have been traded.

Ramon's trade value has probably dropped. If he goes in a waiver deal, the Reds will get next to nothing.

The peak of Razor's value was at the ASB. He had a hot first half offensively.

Now, his offense has calmed down.

IMO, Razor's defense has slipped this year. Hanigan is a much better defender now.

I also believe the Reds kept Razor because they want Mesoraco to play the full season at AAA.

Guacarock
08-15-2011, 02:32 PM
Ramon Hernandez not being traded was a bad thing. No way around it. The team is out of contention, and he is going to walk at the end of the season, and the Reds won't get squat.

Hernandez can still be dealt if he clears waivers or is claimed by a team, say the Giants, who have wanted him all along, or the Diamondbacks, trying to block the Giants. You're right in a sense, though. The return for Hernandez's services won't be as great as we could have expected had we traded him in July.

If it's the Giants who go after Hernandez, I'd still ask for Surkamp in return, knowing we'd have to sweeten the pot to land the pitching prospect. We might need to package Hernandez with Francisco or Hermida (either of whom could give them a cheap left-handed insurance bat if Beltran's hand injury persists, clouding his usefulness to the Giants in their bid to return to the post-season).

TRF
08-15-2011, 02:35 PM
Frazier has power but he is hitting .212 in limited at bats. To me, the Reds were very wise to let Todd play multiple positions. His calling card will be his versatility, as a "super utility" guy with power. Has his value increased by virtue of his callup? Probably not.

well...

He's played 1 game at 1B, 2 in LF. 9 innings at 1B, 9 innings in LF. The rest has been at 3B. in 40 AB's he's posted this line: .225 .340 .600 .940

umm. yes please.

Defensively in 14 games at 3B, 1 error. yep, small sample and hard to really extrapolate, but 3B is his best position defensively.

I'd say he's the front runner to replace Rolen, and should get the bulk of the PT at 3B the rest of the year.

Kc61
08-15-2011, 03:06 PM
well...

He's played 1 game at 1B, 2 in LF. 9 innings at 1B, 9 innings in LF. The rest has been at 3B. in 40 AB's he's posted this line: .225 .340 .600 .940

umm. yes please.

Defensively in 14 games at 3B, 1 error. yep, small sample and hard to really extrapolate, but 3B is his best position defensively.

I'd say he's the front runner to replace Rolen, and should get the bulk of the PT at 3B the rest of the year.

It is a small sample but you are looking at old stats.

Frazier has 52 official at bats. .212/.305/.500/.805. According to MLB. com

Front runner to replace Rolen? I'd say he is the front runner to replace Cairo as a very good bench player.

RedsManRick
08-15-2011, 03:09 PM
Frazier has power but he is hitting .212 in limited at bats. To me, the Reds were very wise to let Todd play multiple positions. His calling card will be his versatility, as a "super utility" guy with power. Has his value increased by virtue of his callup? Probably not.

Frazier has a .189 BABIP despite a 20% LD%. He's walked over 10% of the time and struck out less than 20%. Those are all positive signs.

Really it's not smart to draw any stats based conclusions on 1/10 of a season's worth of PA. But despite the low AVG, I'd say he's acquitted himself quite well.

Kc61
08-15-2011, 03:15 PM
Frazier has a .189 BABIP despite a 20% LD%. He's walked over 10% of the time and struck out less than 20%. Those are all positive signs.

Really it's not smart to draw any stats based conclusions on 1/10 of a season's worth of PA. But despite the low AVG, I'd say he's acquitted himself quite well.

Frazier has done fine. But I still think the guy is destined to be super utility type.

And he can be a valuable one. His ability to play many positions, even SS and 2B in a pinch, will help his value.

But I don't think his major league stay has boosted his trade value.
And that's my point. I think Walt should have been more active in trades last off-season and this trade deadline. I don't think he improved the overall value of these prospects but bringing them up to the major leagues.

osuceltic
08-15-2011, 03:19 PM
I agree that a rental wouldn't have been wise, as I said all along.

As for the young talent, though, I have to disagree slightly. The only guy who has "wowed" is Cozart. He looks like a keeper.

I'm not sure the others have helped their trade value. Sappelt surely hasn't, he looks like a guy with little power who doesn't walk much. Not a great combination. Has skills, for sure, but has looked ordinary so far.

Alonso surely can hit, but not sure he has helped his value. His stint in the majors will only cement his reputation as a first baseman/DH without much versatility.

Frazier has power but he is hitting .212 in limited at bats. To me, the Reds were very wise to let Todd play multiple positions. His calling card will be his versatility, as a "super utility" guy with power. Has his value increased by virtue of his callup? Probably not.

While it is fun to watch these young guys play and root for them, I'm not sure overall that the Reds will get more in a trade for them now. In fact, the Reds could get less in some cases.

No, IMO, the Reds should have been more active last off-season and at the deadline. Not for rentals, surely. And, again, if the deals were unfair, then Walt was correct not to bite.

But we'll see if the Reds get any real benefit next off-season from this approach.

Completely agree. Alonso looks like a big-league regular, but that's it. And he's blocked by Votto. That makes him completely expendable, but only to a team needing a first baseman or DH. And the Reds' leverage is hurt because everyone knows the team's only option, other than trading him, is to have him wilt on the vine in AAA.

Frazier looks like a solid utility guy. That has value, but isn't much of a trade asset. Sappelt ... not seeing it. Cozart is a maybe to me. He's underwhelming at shortstop defensively. The bat is a question mark. His future may be at second base -- if he hits enough.

I'm a little surprised Francisco isn't on his way up yet. Might be an OK time to give him an extended trial at third.

Anyway, I'm not sure any of this big league PT really helped the Reds or increased anyone's value. Alonso maybe. Other than that, I think it exposed these guys somewhat -- although I will say that other teams scout these players enough that they already have a pretty good book on them.

I'm starting to wonder if the only real high-end positional value in the minor league system is Alonso, Mes and Hamilton (and maybe Grandal). If Walt really was making Mes and Hamilton untouchable, it's not surprising he couldn't get a deal done at the deadline.

TRF
08-15-2011, 03:22 PM
It is a small sample but you are looking at old stats.

Frazier has 52 official at bats. .212/.305/.500/.805. According to MLB. com

Front runner to replace Rolen? I'd say he is the front runner to replace Cairo as a very good bench player.

No I'm not. As a 3B his line is .225 .340 .600 .940

I'm discounting his1 game at 1B and his 2 games, 9 total innings in LF, as a rookie. I'm concentrating on the position he has the most AB's at, and the one he has stated he feels the most comfortable.

Kc61
08-15-2011, 03:24 PM
No I'm not. As a 3B his line is .225 .340 .600 .940

I'm discounting his1 game at 1B and his 2 games, 9 total innings in LF, as a rookie. I'm concentrating on the position he has the most AB's at, and the one he has stated he feels the most comfortable.

Oh, I guess playing third base helps Todd's offense.

Ok. Sure.

TRF
08-15-2011, 03:25 PM
Oh, I guess playing third base helps Todd's offense.

Ok. Sure.

Yeah, comfort level has nothing to do with baseball. I wonder how well Scott Rolen would hit if he were suddenly the everyday 2B?

TRF
08-15-2011, 03:28 PM
Alonso looks like a big-league regular, but that's it. And he's blocked by Votto. That makes him completely expendable, but only to a team needing a first baseman or DH. And the Reds' leverage is hurt because everyone knows the team's only option, other than trading him, is to have him wilt on the vine in AAA.

19 AB's is enough to tell you he looks like a big league regular? It tells me he is so unbelievably bad defensively at every position EXCEPT 1B (where he isn't noted for being stellar) that his bat does not offset his defense. Alonso is a DH. Send him to a team that needs one. But every team now sees his shortcomings in the field and that is going to lower his value. He's no Carlos Pena defensively. He's not even Joey Votto with the glove, and I doubt he's going to be as good at the plate.

_Sir_Charles_
08-15-2011, 04:32 PM
@ Kc61 The way I look at it, the Reds aren't trying to showcase these kids in order to increase their trade value. They're trying to see what they have for their OWN use. A rookie coming to the bigs and struggling at the plate...certainly not an unfamiliar occurrence. And also not one to doom that player going forward. Sappelt has shown excellent defense, the ability to hit the ball hard against big league pitching but hasn't yet shown the patience we saw at Louisville. Give him time. Same for Cozart. Frazier...IMO, what the Reds did to him by shuffling him around actually is type-casting him into a utility role. His best position defensively is third. It always has been. He wasn't getting regular playing time there due to his versatility and the fact that the Reds needed to see other guys at third who DIDN'T have his versatility. But his position is third...with some flexibility. Of the 4, the only guy who hasn't helped his own cause is Yonder IMO. His horrific display on defense only solidified what many already thought. But as we also guessed...the bat is legit.

I just don't know why you're repeatedly referring to these guys' trade values...other than Yonder, who of these 4 are suspected to be traded any time soon? And even Yonder...it looks to me like the Reds are doing everything in their power to find a way to get his bat in the lineup...not deal it off somewhere. Right or wrong...that's certainly the way it looks. So if anything, it's the NON-young players who should be concerned about their trade value IMO. Because it doesn't appear the kids are going anywhere.

Kc61
08-15-2011, 04:41 PM
I just don't know why you're repeatedly referring to these guys' trade values...other than Yonder, who of these 4 are suspected to be traded any time soon? And even Yonder...it looks to me like the Reds are doing everything in their power to find a way to get his bat in the lineup...not deal it off somewhere. Right or wrong...that's certainly the way it looks. So if anything, it's the NON-young players who should be concerned about their trade value IMO. Because it doesn't appear the kids are going anywhere.

I was responding to an earlier post that suggested that it helps trade value to have these guys in the majors. Or at least that's how I read it.

I guess I'm also responding to two thoughts.

First off, I hope, perhaps wrongly, that the Reds would use organizational depth to trade for a proven hitter and a proven pitcher. I think the team could contend if it made these moves. So I view some of these prospects as trade bait.

Secondly, if you add Francisco, Mesoraco, maybe Phipps, Boxberger to the mix, along with Frazier, Cozart, Sappelt, Alonso, Wood, I just think there is an overload of young players. So I would expect some of these prospects to be dealt just to relieve the overload - before they are 26 or 27 year old prospects who lose value.

I could definitely be wrong. We could see the Reds trade off salaried guys and keep the prospects in another cost cutting move.

But mainly, I had hoped that the team would now focus primarily on filling holes mostly with proven players, and would trade off some prosects, yes.

_Sir_Charles_
08-15-2011, 04:55 PM
I was responding to an earlier post that suggested that it helps trade value to have these guys in the majors. Or at least that's how I read it.

My apologies. I must've misread that as well.


I guess I'm also responding to two thoughts.

First off, I hope, perhaps wrongly, that the Reds would use organizational depth to trade for a proven hitter and a proven pitcher. I think the team could contend if it made these moves. So I view some of these prospects as trade bait.

I agree somewhat...but the thing is, it looks to me like the Reds want to see if some of this organizational depth has the chance to BECOME that proven hitter or proven pitcher. It might not be what I'd do, but I certainly can't fault them for wanting to see what their own players can do first.


Secondly, if you add Francisco, Mesoraco, maybe Phipps, Boxberger to the mix, along with Frazier, Cozart, Sappelt, Alonso, Wood, I just think there is an overload of young players. So I would expect some of these prospects to be dealt just to relieve the overload - before they are 26 or 27 year old prospects who lose value.

I could definitely be wrong. We could see the Reds trade off salaried guys and keep the prospects in another cost cutting move.

But mainly, I had hoped that the team would now focus primarily on filling holes mostly with proven players, and would trade off some prosects, yes.

I think we're on the same page here, but considering we don't really know what goes on behind closed doors in regards with Walt...maybe dealing the vets and holding onto the youth IS the right move. Who knows. But if we can't all play armchair GM...what's the point of the forum. :O) :beerme:

TRF
08-15-2011, 05:06 PM
Some proven players acquired in the last 3 seasons...

Edgar Renteria
Willy Tavares
Johnny Gomes
Kevin Barker
Scott Rolen (well, He's... um... breathing?)
Laynce Nix
Micah Owings
Orlando Cabrera
Jim Edmonds (he fixed Jay Bruce. I read it on the internets)
Drew Sutton
Russ Springer
Fred Lewis
Jeremy Hermida (his OPS is 40 points lower than Joey Votto's OBP)
Dontrelle Willis

Kc61, who do you want Jocketty to move to make way for the next version of the above?

Kc61
08-15-2011, 05:12 PM
Some proven players acquired in the last 3 seasons...

Edgar Renteria
Willy Tavares
Johnny Gomes
Kevin Barker
Scott Rolen (well, He's... um... breathing?)
Laynce Nix
Micah Owings
Orlando Cabrera
Jim Edmonds (he fixed Jay Bruce. I read it on the internets)
Drew Sutton
Russ Springer
Fred Lewis
Jeremy Hermida (his OPS is 40 points lower than Joey Votto's OBP)
Dontrelle Willis

Kc61, who do you want Jocketty to move to make way for the next version of the above?


Well, now, we don't want to rule out all player acquisitions because of the past, do we?

I would hope as a devout Reds fan that the tide has turned. That the team is now looking pretty good and a couple of proven guys are now fair game.

You know, everyone always says build with youth and then, when you need the missing pieces from the outside, go after them.

Now in all likelihood, I am just whistling in the dark. In all likelihood, veterans acquired this off-season will again be the low-cost guys either "on the downside" or "never weres". But I can hope, right?

Let me say that I do believe in using young players. I believe in aggressively managing them, keeping some, trading some, molding a team by smart decisions -- to trade or not to trade.

But my hope for the Reds is that the statement that the "losing stops now" is for real and that this next off-season the team's ownership will insist on meaningful improvement, even at some cost in trade pieces and money.

REDREAD
08-15-2011, 05:16 PM
Can you give me an example of what Jocketty has done to improve it significantly? What player has he added that has been a significant help? Rolen? Well sure, for about 3 months. The rest of his time here, he has been terrible.
.

Well, taking a team team to a division title last year was an accomplishment.
No need to relist all the transactions done to accomplish that.

Again, over last offseason, I heard a lot of demands to dump Leake. I sure am glad we didn't do that.. Also, I heard a lot of calls to bring in some OF that ended up being worse than Gomes. Sure, it's easy to say "GET AN ACE", but that's hard to do without giving up the farm.

Why would you say that he's terribe? Should he have forseen that Wood, Stubbs and Bruce would've regressed this year? Should he have forseen that Volquez would've been totally useless? We all knew that Rolen is a dice roll with the Shoulder injury he has. We won last year, got bit this year. That's the breaks in the game.. that's why we were able to get him so cheaply from Toronto..there was some risk.

So why do you think he's terrible?

REDREAD
08-15-2011, 05:23 PM
This.

Jocketty has flat-out stunk. He's done nothing. Any GM can make a trade for an aging 3rd basemen and sign young players to long-term deals. That's really not that difficult in the GM world. What has he actually done to improve the team? Nothing. Zippo. He's been the most disappointing Red, to me, over the past few years. I had much higher expectations for him, unfortunately.

When was the last time we won a division title? 1995

Walt must've done something right last year.

What has he done? Well, since he arrived, we have a new starter at every position except Phillips (Hat was still dragging the team down when Walt got here).. Got to give him credit for that.

Walt has turned over the bullpen too.
Now, it's true that he's inherited some good talent, but to say he's done "nothing" is silly.

Look, this year has been disappointing, we had high expectations, so now everyone wants WAlt and Dusty canned. Fans have a short memory.. Thankfully Cast is not so impulsive. I have no desire to go back to the Wayne K and Jerry Narron way of doing things.

Kc61
08-15-2011, 05:29 PM
I don't see how anyone can blame Jocketty. Or Baker even.

It's ownership - their financial situation and their organizational mindset.

The Reds have decided to build with prospects with very occasional additions from the outside. That is clear. It is a financial decision that fits with the conservative attitude of the top brass.

I have no doubt that Walt has tight constraints. Give him a different payroll, and a different mindset by ownership, and he would be a completely different GM.

Walt is very capable. It's the situation he is in.

REDREAD
08-15-2011, 05:30 PM
How about we count the trade for Rolen as a good one, but the extension of Rolen as a bad one? Is that more fair?

Well, how do we have Rolen last year if we don't extend him?
We got him as a pending FA.. I'm not sure a one year "take it or leave it"
offer would've gotten Scott to come back.

Also, I think Rolen this year, even hurt would've likely been better than the alternative.. Who would've played 3b this year.. Do you give the job to Cairo full time? Janish? Rolen was OPSing a little over average for a 3b, so his defense makes him above average. I doubt the Reds expected him to maintain MVP level production over the length of his contract.

Extending Rolen was not a bad move.

_Sir_Charles_
08-15-2011, 05:30 PM
Well, taking a team team to a division title last year was an accomplishment.
No need to relist all the transactions done to accomplish that.

Again, over last offseason, I heard a lot of demands to dump Leake. I sure am glad we didn't do that.. Also, I heard a lot of calls to bring in some OF that ended up being worse than Gomes. Sure, it's easy to say "GET AN ACE", but that's hard to do without giving up the farm.

Why would you say that he's terribe? Should he have forseen that Wood, Stubbs and Bruce would've regressed this year? Should he have forseen that Volquez would've been totally useless? We all knew that Rolen is a dice roll with the Shoulder injury he has. We won last year, got bit this year. That's the breaks in the game.. that's why we were able to get him so cheaply from Toronto..there was some risk.

So why do you think he's terrible?

Yes, the team won the division last year. But what did Walt have to do with that personally? Not much. What personnel did he bring in to affect that change? Not many. This club was designed by previous GM's and Walt is getting the credit for "turning the club around" per se. Overall, he's sat on his hands. Now I'm not complaining really. Sometimes the best deal is the deal you DON'T make and since we really don't know the real specifics of the trade talks...it's hard to make any determinations as to whether Walt is doing well or poorly. But from the outside looking in...he hasn't done hardly anything since taking over. At least hardly anything positive.

Sure, the drafts have been good, but they were good before him too. That's on the people who handle the draft...not Walt. From my perspective, Krivsky has done more for this franchise than Jocketty.

And as for Rolen...Doug's right. Other than the first 3 months of last year...he's been pretty abysmal at the plate during his Reds tenure. And that's the feather in Jocketty's cap right now. Kind of pitiful.

TRF
08-15-2011, 05:34 PM
When was the last time we won a division title? 1995

Walt must've done something right last year.

What has he done? Well, since he arrived, we have a new starter at every position except Phillips (Hat was still dragging the team down when Walt got here).. Got to give him credit for that.

Walt has turned over the bullpen too.
Now, it's true that he's inherited some good talent, but to say he's done "nothing" is silly.

Look, this year has been disappointing, we had high expectations, so now everyone wants WAlt and Dusty canned. Fans have a short memory.. Thankfully Cast is not so impulsive. I have no desire to go back to the Wayne K and Jerry Narron way of doing things.

Interesting that you mention 1995. So was JimBo a good GM because the Reds won in 1995 (1994 too really) or was it sort of sustained success from the late 80's into the early 90's. From 1985 to 1995, 2 5th place finishes, 5 2nd place and 3 1st place finishes. It certainly wasn't JimBo that caused that, otherwise the success would have kept coming.

So is Jocketty responsible for 2010 or did he reap what his predecessors left him; a strong talent base, a young team, and an odd downturn for the division giant, the Cardinals?

REDREAD
08-15-2011, 05:42 PM
Yes, the team won the division last year. But what did Walt have to do with that personally? Not much. .

Added:

Ramon
Rolen
OCab
Chapman
Leake
Masset
Rhodes
Cairo

Brought up many young players at the right time also. Example.. brought up Stubbs and trusted him for CF. Knew he was ready, this is in contrast to the past where young players that were not capable/ready were given jobs.

IMO, that's more than "not much".

mdccclxix
08-15-2011, 05:43 PM
Interesting that you mention 1995. So was JimBo a good GM because the Reds won in 1995 (1994 too really) or was it sort of sustained success from the late 80's into the early 90's. From 1985 to 1995, 2 5th place finishes, 5 2nd place and 3 1st place finishes. It certainly wasn't JimBo that caused that, otherwise the success would have kept coming.

So is Jocketty responsible for 2010 or did he reap what his predecessors left him; a strong talent base, a young team, and an odd downturn for the division giant, the Cardinals?

It's worth noting.

REDREAD
08-15-2011, 05:47 PM
Interesting that you mention 1995. So was JimBo a good GM because the Reds won in 1995 (1994 too really) or was it sort of sustained success from the late 80's into the early 90's. From 1985 to 1995, 2 5th place finishes, 5 2nd place and 3 1st place finishes. It certainly wasn't JimBo that caused that, otherwise the success would have kept coming.

So is Jocketty responsible for 2010 or did he reap what his predecessors left him; a strong talent base, a young team, and an odd downturn for the division giant, the Cardinals?

Yes, Bowden was a great GM until 2000 when the money stopped because Carl knew Jr could sell tickets on a crappy team. Don't forget about 1999
Bowden tore down the 1997 team and rebuilt a contender as soon as 1999.

Was Bowden a role model you'd want your kid to emulate? Of course not, but he was a great GM. He won pretty consistently until the owner decided to pinch pennies. No GM would've won on the Reds from 2001 to the time Carl sold. The Reds extended Casey and Graves as a PR move prior to opening the stadium. Allen's plan all along was to dump players as soon as the advanced ticket sales were over. Bowden was ordered by Allen before the season started to dump Sullivan and White before the season started, but refused.
That's why Bowden was canned. He refused to have the 2003 firesale.

TRF
08-15-2011, 06:01 PM
Yes, Bowden was a great GM until 2000 when the money stopped because Carl knew Jr could sell tickets on a crappy team. Don't forget about 1999
Bowden tore down the 1997 team and rebuilt a contender as soon as 1999.

Was Bowden a role model you'd want your kid to emulate? Of course not, but he was a great GM. He won pretty consistently until the owner decided to pinch pennies. No GM would've won on the Reds from 2001 to the time Carl sold. The Reds extended Casey and Graves as a PR move prior to opening the stadium. Allen's plan all along was to dump players as soon as the advanced ticket sales were over. Bowden was ordered by Allen before the season started to dump Sullivan and White before the season started, but refused.
That's why Bowden was canned. He refused to have the 2003 firesale.

Then why didn't he win in Washington? Why didn't he keep winning in 1996, 97, 98?

_Sir_Charles_
08-15-2011, 06:12 PM
Added:

Ramon
Rolen
OCab
Chapman
Leake
Masset
Rhodes
Cairo

Brought up many young players at the right time also. Example.. brought up Stubbs and trusted him for CF. Knew he was ready, this is in contrast to the past where young players that were not capable/ready were given jobs.

IMO, that's more than "not much".

Also added: Willy Taveras, Wilkin Castillo, Micah Owings, Drew Sutton, Russ Springer, Jason Isringhausen, Aaron Miles, Jim Edmonds

Also lost: Adam Dunn, Adam Rosales, Jeff Keppinger, Edwin Encarnacion, Zack Stewart, Josh Roenicke, Justin Turner, Brandon Waring

The point is that he hasn't done much to substantially improve the team. The Ramon Hernandez trade was a good one. Sure, it cost us Justin Turner who looks to be becoming a solid player, but overall a very good deal. The Rolen trade cost us two promising young arms for 3 months of very good production. I'll even put that one in the "win" column. But the rest...meh! For every Miguel Cairo he brought in, he also added a Russ Springer. Sure, some of the "has been's" have worked out, but most didn't. He has shown a propensity for wanting to rebuild his glory years by hoarding old St. Louis players who've obviously past their prime.

As for the draft...I'm not going to give him credit for that...because realistically it's in the hands of other people. I want to say Buckley? The Chapman acquisition...I'm not sure who orchestrated that one, but I'm fine with giving him credit for that one. But at the same time, shouldn't he take the blame for how Chapman's been mismanaged? Do you really want to see that kind of money on a small market club go to a set-up guy?

From my point of view, it looks to me like Walt really doesn't know how to function very well as a GM with a "budget". He can't be a free spender like he was in StL...and it seems to stay his hand on the trigger.

IslandRed
08-15-2011, 07:14 PM
It tells me he is so unbelievably bad defensively at every position EXCEPT 1B (where he isn't noted for being stellar) that his bat does not offset his defense. Alonso is a DH. Send him to a team that needs one. But every team now sees his shortcomings in the field and that is going to lower his value.

Disagree completely on the trade value part.

For one thing, his inability to play elsewhere doesn't mean he can't play first base. I've yet to see a single source I trust say he can't handle first. Maybe he'll never win a Gold Glove, but that's not the bar he has to clear.

The other thing is, there are such things as minor league scouts, and I doubt any other team was ever willing to kick in extra in a trade because they suffered the delusion Alonso could play something other than first base.

The real risk the Reds took bringing him up was that he wouldn't hit. Luckily, so far so good.

Mario-Rijo
08-15-2011, 07:15 PM
Then why didn't he win in Washington? Why didn't he keep winning in 1996, 97, 98?

Game, Set, Match:

In a heated debate, your side makes a point and then a counter-point is made by the opposing team. You dish out another point only to be countered by....nothing. If enough time goes by and no valid counter-points have been made, or nothing has even been said, then it's time for you to say, "game, set, match."

There's been over 8 seconds of silence from the opposition. You've won. Celebrate.

Synonymous with: For the Win. To school.
A: We should really replace our lightbulbs with compact florescents.

B: How much money do you think it would cost to replace these technologies, and how much e-waste would that produce?

A: This one-time thing? Compact florescents last much longer than typical lightbulbs so we'd actually be saving money and producing less e-waste.


B: ....

A: Game, Set, Match.

REDREAD
08-16-2011, 10:41 AM
Then why didn't he win in Washington? Why didn't he keep winning in 1996, 97, 98?

1997.. the team decided to rebuild.. the fruit of that effort came in 1999.

Why didn't he win in Washington? When he was let go, Kasten said that Bowden was given nothing and still found players. I think you know that no GM was going to win in Washington with that budget.

REDREAD
08-16-2011, 10:44 AM
Also added: Willy Taveras, Wilkin Castillo, Micah Owings, Drew Sutton, Russ Springer, Jason Isringhausen, Aaron Miles, Jim Edmonds

Also lost: Adam Dunn, Adam Rosales, Jeff Keppinger, Edwin Encarnacion, Zack Stewart, Josh Roenicke, Justin Turner, Brandon Waring

.

I guess I don't see the point of this comment. Sure, Taveras was a mistake. The other "adds" were no descript garbage dumps that cost the team nothing.

Losses? Does anyone really wish the Reds had signed Dunn instead of letting him walk? Dunn had very little value, which was proven when Wash was the only team to offer him a 2 year deal. Are you upset over losing Rosales and Ede (or anyone else on that list)? I guess I don't get the point

_Sir_Charles_
08-16-2011, 11:19 AM
I guess I don't see the point of this comment. Sure, Taveras was a mistake. The other "adds" were no descript garbage dumps that cost the team nothing.

Losses? Does anyone really wish the Reds had signed Dunn instead of letting him walk? Dunn had very little value, which was proven when Wash was the only team to offer him a 2 year deal. Are you upset over losing Rosales and Ede (or anyone else on that list)? I guess I don't get the point

I'm pointing out the fact that he has done very little of actual SUBSTANCE. Yeah, he's made some small signings and such, he's let go of some guys who were probably more valuable than the guys he brought in. The bottom line is that he hasn't done anything substantial to change the makeup of the club. Hernandez is really the only one that comes close IMO. For 3 months, Rolen was a difference maker, but that was it basically. I just don't see the "added" list that was originally posted as being a positive. Ocab? Really?

paulrichjr
08-16-2011, 11:26 AM
I have no idea if it would have or could have worked but I would have loved to have seen the Krivsky/Jocketty tandem tried a little longer. Numerous teams have Ex-GMs in a position over the GM. Krivsky could turn over a roster faster than anyone I have ever seen and very often made good/amazing deals. I think he just needed someone to play Devil's Advocate with him every once in awhile.

Mario-Rijo
08-16-2011, 11:36 AM
I have no idea if it would have or could have worked but I would have loved to have seen the Krivsky/Jocketty tandem tried a little longer. Numerous teams have Ex-GMs in a position over the GM. Krivsky could turn over a roster faster than anyone I have ever seen and very often made good/amazing deals. I think he just needed someone to play Devil's Advocate with him every once in awhile.

If you could meld them together you'd have an excellent GM Walt is excellent at everything except talent evaluation IMO and Wayne was pretty darn good in that area.

WVRedsFan
08-16-2011, 01:50 PM
I really don't understand the love for Krivisky. His talent evaluation is one thing, but the results were simply less than good. Rome wasn't built in a day, but in the end the only evaluation that means anything is wins and losses. They didn't come. And the atmosphere around the front office was horrible when he was here. The guy wasn't ready and he saw the Reds as the Minnesota Twins. I'd rather compete for a World Series than just be good during the regular season and tank in the playoffs (see 2010). As long as Philly and St.Louis have unlimited money to work with, and we refuse to take chances on free agents, this is our fate. Walt may not work well with a limited budget, but who does--except the Twins who will forever win lots of games and tank in October. That's not what I want and only spending on players to help the club will make us a winner throughout, I wont hold my breath,,,

Mario-Rijo
08-16-2011, 02:43 PM
I really don't understand the love for Krivisky. His talent evaluation is one thing, but the results were simply less than good. Rome wasn't built in a day, but in the end the only evaluation that means anything is wins and losses. They didn't come. And the atmosphere around the front office was horrible when he was here. The guy wasn't ready and he saw the Reds as the Minnesota Twins. I'd rather compete for a World Series than just be good during the regular season and tank in the playoffs (see 2010). As long as Philly and St.Louis have unlimited money to work with, and we refuse to take chances on free agents, this is our fate. Walt may not work well with a limited budget, but who does--except the Twins who will forever win lots of games and tank in October. That's not what I want and only spending on players to help the club will make us a winner throughout, I wont hold my breath,,,

Well I think you answered your own question with the Rome wasn't built in a day point. But let's just look at it a different way. We don't really know what the restrictions were or were not for Krivsky. But we do know he did not have a team one can win with when he started and we do know that the pitching it took just to make us competitive last year had to mostly be groomed/homegrown. So I just believe that anyone who calls out wins and losses as a fair measuring stick during such an example is either being unfair or simply doesn't think pitching is the key to winning and losing. And in either case they are wrong. The key to winning is acquiring talent, the key to acquiring talent is evaluation (both yours and everyone else's) and he was much better IMO than Jocketty is in this regard. It might be the only area he was better than Walt but it's a huge, huge area. We could probably get by alright if someone close to the GM could evaluate talent but apparently that isn't the case because we continue to sit on our hands with a 40 man about to explode and a 25 man short on tangible help in the now.

Blitz Dorsey
08-16-2011, 02:53 PM
It's not what has Jocketty done, it's what he hasn't done. He hasn't made any stupid trades or signings that made it impossible for the Reds to compete.

The best trades are always the ones never made.

It might sound trite, but that philosophy is what built every competitive team in my lifetime.

For example: He hasn't done anything insane like trade Josh Hamilton for Edinson Volquez.

Mario-Rijo
08-16-2011, 03:16 PM
It's not what has Jocketty done, it's what he hasn't done. He hasn't made any stupid trades or signings that made it impossible for the Reds to compete.

The best trades are always the ones never made.

It might sound trite, but that philosophy is what built every competitive team in my lifetime.

So we should have never made the Lee May for Joe Morgan trade? The best trades aren't always the ones never made. The best trades are usually the one where someone has an eye for talent and the other someone does not.

TRF
08-16-2011, 03:55 PM
1997.. the team decided to rebuild.. the fruit of that effort came in 1999.

Why didn't he win in Washington? When he was let go, Kasten said that Bowden was given nothing and still found players. I think you know that no GM was going to win in Washington with that budget.

But good GM's rebuild without blowing it up. Since 2001, the Twins, another small market team, has been competitive every year. Lose your best starter in Johan Santana? Have an even better record the next year. Only once in the last 10 years have they finished below .500. That could happen again this year, but they look like they are retooling. I'd expect Nathan to be gone soon, perhaps at the end of the year, with Capps in place as the closer.

But I digress. How much of the Reds success up till 1995 was because of Bowden? How much was it him riding what was dealt to him?

I'm sorry, but if anyone really thinks the acquisitions Jocketty made in 2009 and in season for 2010 led to a title... ummm... not really. What did it was Arroyo, Cueto, a hot month in May, Votto's MVP and a sharp regression by the division king, STL. Rolen added a bunch in the first half, a lot less in the second half. Ramon was ok, Hanigan much better. Funny that the best player on the team was drafted by JimBo's group.