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View Full Version : Did Walt "Fail" Today



corkedbat
07-31-2011, 06:23 PM
What is your criteria for failing?

kaldaniels
07-31-2011, 06:25 PM
I will answer your question. No. Buying teams really had to overpay this season for the most part. I think to get top-notch guys it would have been ugly when it came to who the Reds had to give up. (And Mesoraco was not untouchable for me)

Now there is another argument to be had whether long-term, has Walt done enough, but that was not the question.

corkedbat
07-31-2011, 06:31 PM
I will answer your question. No. Buying teams really had to overpay this season for the most part. I think to get top-notch guys it would have been ugly when it came to who the Reds had to give up. (And Mesoraco was not untouchable for me)

Now there is another argument to be had whether long-term, has Walt done enough, but that was not the question.

Good point and maybe I over-lapped them too much. I went with number four but could have gone with number three.

Superdude
07-31-2011, 06:36 PM
I will answer your question. No. Buying teams really had to overpay this season for the most part. I think to get top-notch guys it would have been ugly when it came to who the Reds had to give up. (And Mesoraco was not untouchable for me)

Now there is another argument to be had whether long-term, has Walt done enough, but that was not the question.

Agree with this to the tee. Not thrilled with Walt's tenure so far, but coughing up enormous packages for one player is not smart management in a market like Cincy.

vic715
07-31-2011, 06:37 PM
I will answer your question. No. Buying teams really had to overpay this season for the most part. I think to get top-notch guys it would have been ugly when it came to who the Reds had to give up. (And Mesoraco was not untouchable for me)

Now there is another argument to be had whether long-term, has Walt done enough, but that was not the question.

Thats the way I see it.There's not one of those trades that I would have emptied the farm for including Jiminez.Now I would have pushed a bit if we could have gotten Tampa to part with Shields and Upton but that didn't happen.I'm also glad they didn't trade Alonzo yet as I think this guy is going to be a hitter.Whether he can play leftfield or not remains a question,but I would like to see him get the chance to find out.

Unassisted
07-31-2011, 06:57 PM
I'd vote, but there's no poll choice for "I don't know, because I don't know what deals he passed up."

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-31-2011, 07:01 PM
I will answer your question. No. Buying teams really had to overpay this season for the most part. I think to get top-notch guys it would have been ugly when it came to who the Reds had to give up. (And Mesoraco was not untouchable for me)

Now there is another argument to be had whether long-term, has Walt done enough, but that was not the question.

The Tribe overpayed for Ubaldo, no doubt. But how did the Phillies overpay for Hunter Pence, who could have helped this club considerably this year and next.

puca
07-31-2011, 07:03 PM
I reluctantly voted 'no but he must improve the club by spring training'.

There was only one player that was traded I would have really liked for the Reds. The price for that player was steep and my not have been beatable by Walt without dealing Cueto or Leake.

I don't know what it would have taken to get Jiminez but the price the Tribe paid was considerable.

kaldaniels
07-31-2011, 07:05 PM
The Tribe overpayed for Ubaldo, no doubt. But how did the Phillies overpay for Hunter Pence, who could have helped this club considerably this year and next.

2 top 50 prospects plus some, and I don't think the Reds could comfortably add his 25 million or so payroll the next 2 years.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-31-2011, 07:10 PM
2 top 50 prospects plus some, and I don't think the Reds could comfortably add his 25 million or so payroll the next 2 years.

Even with Cordero and Hernandez off the books, the jump in attendance and Bruce signed to a club-friendly contract for the next seven years?

The Reds already got burned badly going the cheap route this year (Gomes, Lewis, Janish, Renteria) instead of upgrading. I don't really want to do that again.

dougdirt
07-31-2011, 07:21 PM
I want to say yes, but not because he didn't add someone, but because he didn't trade free agents to be.

PuffyPig
07-31-2011, 07:23 PM
Even with Cordero and Hernandez off the books, the jump in attendance and Bruce signed to a club-friendly contract for the next seven years?



Paying top dollar in terms of money and propsects for a LF who will give us great defense and a .800 or so OPS makes zero sense for the short or long term success of the Reds.

As a hitter he's pretty similiar to Phillips in style and results.

oneupper
07-31-2011, 07:23 PM
I want to say yes, but not because he didn't add someone, but because he didn't trade free agents to be.

This. Reality says there is little chance this year. But hope can still put some butts in the seats for the remainder of the season.

corkedbat
07-31-2011, 07:35 PM
This. Reality says there is little chance this year. But hope can still put some butts in the seats for the remainder of the season.

I've got a feeling that watching the younsters might be what fans find exciting and may also be the best manner to jumpstart this team. I don't think playing Cozart and Frazier are necessarily giving up on winning by any means.

REDREAD
07-31-2011, 07:36 PM
I want to say yes, but not because he didn't add someone, but because he didn't trade free agents to be.

Well, he did dump Gomes.
Cordero was probably immovable.

I'm guessing Walt might want to leave the door open to bringing back Hernandez again next year.. Then again, if we can't get a prospect that's worth getting, why trade him..

Gomes got marginal talent back, but we had Heisey and Alsono to backfill his playing time. Maybe Walt doesn't want to bring up Mes yet and doesn't want to bring Corky up.. Keeping Hernadez is not a tragedy.

kaldaniels
07-31-2011, 07:39 PM
I want to say yes, but not because he didn't add someone, but because he didn't trade free agents to be.

I'd have loved it if we got quality prospects for Hernandez and CoCo. However, if I was an opposing GM, I wouldn't bother with Coco and I'd try to jerk Walt around with Ramon knowing that he almost has to trade him. So I don't know what to think about not dealing those 2, I really don't without knowing was on the table. You don't want to have a repuatation for being a rube. I do understand the disappointment in not dealing those 2. Having said that, getting 2 breathing human bodies for Gomes was an accomplishment, albeit probably insignificant long term.

corkedbat
07-31-2011, 07:43 PM
Well, he did dump Gomes.
Cordero was probably immovable.

I'm guessing Walt might want to leave the door open to bringing back Hernandez again next year.. Then again, if we can't get a prospect that's worth getting, why trade him..Gomes got marginal talent back, but we had Heisey and Alsono to backfill his playing time. Maybe Walt doesn't want to bring up Mes yet and doesn't want to bring Corky up.. Keeping Hernadez is not a tragedy.

I hope to goodness this is in no way true (but I have considered it). I lothe the though of dealing Meseraco, but if they spend money and bring Ramon beck, then they should just try and get a huge haul for Meseraco and go wth Grandall in 2013. Love Hernandez, but bringing him back would be a monumental waste of resources.

nemesis
07-31-2011, 07:47 PM
Dumping Gomes was a positive step forward.

Bringing up Alonso as well.

It was obviously a sellers market this year and in no way shape or form I would have been happy to see Mesoraco, Hamilton or Chapman included in any deals.

It appears to me the gap between our A list prospects and rookies...

Chapman
Mesoraco
Hamilton
Grandal
Alonso

is a huge gap between our B prospects and rookies

Cozart
Frazier
Francisco
Wood
Gregorious
Soto
H-Rod

Just not enough value in other teams eyes I guess.


But, they have to play Cozart, Frazier, Alonso and Mesoraco from here on out. You kept them now get them on the roster and in the field so you can go into the off season with a clear plan on what has to be done in the Off-Season and who it needs to be done with.


I am a bit nervous that Renteria is now "hot" in Dusty's eyes and Cozart will be sent out on Rehab until September to be "cautious"... I see it coming a mile away.

Congrats to Colorado on fleecing the Indians by the way. About the time Jimenez contract runs out in Cleveland, Colorado should have a strong 1/2 combo in the pair. Outstanding haul.

edabbs44
07-31-2011, 07:51 PM
The Tribe overpayed for Ubaldo, no doubt. But how did the Phillies overpay for Hunter Pence, who could have helped this club considerably this year and next.


e Reds were in on Michael Bourn, who went from Houston to Atlanta, and Hunter Pence, who went from Houston to Philadelphia:

One the problems in dealing with Houston was one of the few things the Astros donít need is a first baseman. Yonder Alonso, probably the best chip the Reds are willing to trade, is a first baseman.

ďThe other thing with Houston, I donít think the really wanted to trade in the division,Ē Jocketty said.


http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/

oneupper
07-31-2011, 07:56 PM
As for Hernandez, bringing up Mes would have started the clock on him (correct me if I'm wrong) and options and all those things.

Walt punted on 2011. He just didn't want to make it look that way. Quite smart if you think about it.

Captain Hook
07-31-2011, 07:57 PM
I voted no and that "I like Pat".

It seems that considering the timing of the poll that it suggest that the team needs improved by making trades although it doesn't really say that.I don't believe the Reds should be trading any prospect they feel can help the big league team at any point.If Walt could get some team to take some C prospects because the other team just wants to dump payroll then fine.I just don't think a team with such payroll restraints can afford to be trading guys that can contribute to winning baseball on the cheap.I hate being terrible and regardless of what anyone says this team is far from terrible.

dougdirt
07-31-2011, 08:14 PM
As for Hernandez, bringing up Mes would have started the clock on him (correct me if I'm wrong) and options and all those things.

Walt punted on 2011. He just didn't want to make it look that way. Quite smart if you think about it.

Started his clock, yes. Started his options, no. He only uses the option if he gets sent back down.

mth123
07-31-2011, 08:41 PM
I voted no and that "I like Pat".

It seems that considering the timing of the poll that it suggest that the team needs improved by making trades although it doesn't really say that.I don't believe the Reds should be trading any prospect they feel can help the big league team at any point.If Walt could get some team to take some C prospects because the other team just wants to dump payroll then fine.I just don't think a team with such payroll restraints can afford to be trading guys that can contribute to winning baseball on the cheap.I hate being terrible and regardless of what anyone says this team is far from terrible.

I keep hearing this a lot today. Here are my questions about these prospects.

1. Where does Alonso play? Judging by how the Reds treated him in 2010 when they were down to 2 OF and so far in this call-up, its not LF.
2. If Mes is the catcher, where does Grandal play?
3. Rolen and Cairo are both back in 2012. Francsco and Frazier both look ready for the big leagues. How do they keep them all?
4. David Sappelt looks ready for an OF spot. He's best suited for CF. Given other needs, does it make sense to hoard all three of Sappelt, Heisey and Stubbs (with Denis Phipps possibly emerging as a guy for some point in 2012.)
5. The Reds need a top starter. Cueto and Leake seem like locks for a spot. Bailey too if he's healthy. Arroyo is signed to a stupid deal so he's in. Willis might be a nice reclamation project that should get invited back for 2012. Volquez may actually be getting to the point of having enough time between his surgery and now to have regained most of his arm strength. Travis Wood was a pretty solid prospect in 2010 and then put up 100 good innings. He's still in the picture. Aroldis Chapman may change the entire picture. Can they really justify keeping Wood around?

Holding all of this excess when there are holes to fill seems to be just as much a kiss of death as not having a pipeline at all. Teams that can't afford to go out and buy what they need with cash, surely can't waste resources by leaving them sit and not be utilized. Everyone is afraid to overpay. That's exactly why you have all these kids. They are the currency used to acquire talent when there isn't cash to do it instead. Sometimes that means an extra prospect needs to be included to get the guy who is not only the missing piece, but also affordable.

I voted fail, but it's more about no moves the last off-season than right now. I get the idea of not making a deal just to make a deal. I agree with that. But its just as wrong to hold all the prospects just to hold all the prospects. Excess is dealt for need. Its nearly as old as baseball itself.

Redsfan320
07-31-2011, 08:42 PM
I said "Yes, but he's got another chance", just because its certainly "Yes", but "done with the Reds until he's gone" seems a bit extreme for my feelings about his failing.

320

IslandRed
07-31-2011, 08:44 PM
I voted "no, but he must improve the club by spring training."

He left the door open for making a run against the weak August schedule, but chose not to bother with rentals. Kind of a neither-nor strategy but I'm guessing there was some ownership prodding involved. Mostly, after the Mets sweep, it took rentals and complementary players off the trade board, and it's hard for me to argue with that. That left moves targeted at 2012. If there weren't any trades out there this time because the supply and demand was out of whack, so be it. It's not 2012 yet.

But.

If the Reds are going to win big next season, there's work to do. They really need to add another good pitcher, the lineup needs some reconfiguring, and they need to look at that logjam of prospects in the high minors and sort them out. Time to decide who to hold and who to fold.

In the end, the time to judge the work of preparing the Reds for 2012 is when I see what the 2012 Reds will be. If it's still the same bunch with the same flaws and the same stacked-up depth to no useful purpose, then I'll pronounce failure.

Eric_the_Red
07-31-2011, 09:06 PM
I want to know which 2 RZers are "done with the Reds". Should've been a public poll.

MikeS21
07-31-2011, 09:51 PM
I voted, "I like Pat." I honestly saw no one who was traded as a substantial upgrade for the Reds, with the possible exception of Jiminez, and I was seeing all sorts of red flags over his declining numbers.

The simple law of averages tell me this team will improve in August and September, and probably will run away with the division in 2012 with a couple minor adjustments: 1) Move Chapman to the rotation; and 2) Allow Ramon to walk and get us an additional high draft pick, replace Ramon with Mes, allowing Mes to be the primary catcher.

oneupper
07-31-2011, 09:56 PM
Started his clock, yes. Started his options, no. He only uses the option if he gets sent back down.

OK. Thanks for clearing that up.

If he's left in AAA all year does that mean a full year more before arbitration?
(as opposed to bringing him up now and assuming he's never sent down again).

That could be worth something.

Captain Hook
07-31-2011, 10:40 PM
I keep hearing this a lot today. Here are my questions about these prospects.

1. Where does Alonso play? Judging by how the Reds treated him in 2010 when they were down to 2 OF and so far in this call-up, its not LF.
2. If Mes is the catcher, where does Grandal play?
3. Rolen and Cairo are both back in 2012. Francsco and Frazier both look ready for the big leagues. How do they keep them all?
4. David Sappelt looks ready for an OF spot. He's best suited for CF. Given other needs, does it make sense to hoard all three of Sappelt, Heisey and Stubbs (with Denis Phipps possibly emerging as a guy for some point in 2012.)
5. The Reds need a top starter. Cueto and Leake seem like locks for a spot. Bailey too if he's healthy. Arroyo is signed to a stupid deal so he's in. Willis might be a nice reclamation project that should get invited back for 2012. Volquez may actually be getting to the point of having enough time between his surgery and now to have regained most of his arm strength. Travis Wood was a pretty solid prospect in 2010 and then put up 100 good innings. He's still in the picture. Aroldis Chapman may change the entire picture. Can they really justify keeping Wood around?

Holding all of this excess when there are holes to fill seems to be just as much a kiss of death as not having a pipeline at all. Teams that can't afford to go out and buy what they need with cash, surely can't waste resources by leaving them sit and not be utilized. Everyone is afraid to overpay. That's exactly why you have all these kids. They are the currency used to acquire talent when there isn't cash to do it instead. Sometimes that means an extra prospect needs to be included to get the guy who is not only the missing piece, but also affordable.

I voted fail, but it's more about no moves the last off-season than right now. I get the idea of not making a deal just to make a deal. I agree with that. But its just as wrong to hold all the prospects just to hold all the prospects. Excess is dealt for need. Its nearly as old as baseball itself.

Like I said, they shouldn't trade anyone that can help the team.I agree on Alonso and would hope that this off season Walt trades him to get someone more useful to them.That is unless Walt goes to Joey Voto this off season to discuss a longer contract only to get the cold shoulder again.I'm not saying they need to get something done but I'd at least like to know Joey would consider a longer deal at a rate the Reds could afford.If it gets to the point that looks unlikely I'd seriously consider seeing what teams would be willing to give up for Joey.I just don't see how you trade guys like Hamilton or Alonso when it's likely you won't be able to afford guys like Phillips and Voto in the next few years.

RedsManRick
07-31-2011, 11:19 PM
The Reds are not close enough to justify an 'all-in' type of move and frankly, the prices were so high that he would have had to pay to steep a price.

As far as I see it, the challenge facing Walt is that this isn't really a team that can be improved on the margins. It needs an impact piece or two and that's not going to be easy.

Ron Madden
07-31-2011, 11:26 PM
I wouldn't give Walt an F on his report card, wouldn't give him an A either.

If anything I'd give him a C for his body of work since joining the Reds.

Patrick Bateman
07-31-2011, 11:49 PM
I voted "no, but he must improve the club by spring training."

He left the door open for making a run against the weak August schedule, but chose not to bother with rentals. Kind of a neither-nor strategy but I'm guessing there was some ownership prodding involved. Mostly, after the Mets sweep, it took rentals and complementary players off the trade board, and it's hard for me to argue with that. That left moves targeted at 2012. If there weren't any trades out there this time because the supply and demand was out of whack, so be it. It's not 2012 yet.

But.

If the Reds are going to win big next season, there's work to do. They really need to add another good pitcher, the lineup needs some reconfiguring, and they need to look at that logjam of prospects in the high minors and sort them out. Time to decide who to hold and who to fold.

In the end, the time to judge the work of preparing the Reds for 2012 is when I see what the 2012 Reds will be. If it's still the same bunch with the same flaws and the same stacked-up depth to no useful purpose, then I'll pronounce failure.

That's where I stand to Island. Even those mostly frustrated with the Reds right now, are mostly upset because we didn't add a piece for the next 2 years. It's difficult for me to be upset without seeing the on field product for 2012.

I think it's clear that Jocketty sees the weaknesses with the teams and wants to upgrade. Generally speaking the Reds aren't linked to aces such as Jiminez or Shields, so I think the Reds are in agreement with Redszone about what the answer is.

I cna't see any way that the price of said pitchers in the offseason is going to be higher. As such, without seeing specific details of what the offers are, I stand by the notion of not making a move right now. At the same time, the Reds should be positioned to compete next season, and it would be frustrating to see no improvements being made before the start of the 2012 season.

Kc61
07-31-2011, 11:53 PM
Walt has a bunch of prospects to deal with now. He can't keep them at AAA forever. Eventually, they have to become Reds, be traded, or be cut.

So far, he has dealt with this situation by deferring the outcome.

At some point, he has to do something with these guys.

IMO trading them for pieces that fit is the best route. I guess that's not happening.

So Walt needs to figure out how to use these assets or they will eventually lose value.

corkedbat
08-01-2011, 11:45 AM
Like I said, they shouldn't trade anyone that can help the team.I agree on Alonso and would hope that this off season Walt trades him to get someone more useful to them.That is unless Walt goes to Joey Voto this off season to discuss a longer contract only to get the cold shoulder again.I'm not saying they need to get something done but I'd at least like to know Joey would consider a longer deal at a rate the Reds could afford.If it gets to the point that looks unlikely I'd seriously consider seeing what teams would be willing to give up for Joey.I just don't see how you trade guys like Hamilton or Alonso when it's likely you won't be able to afford guys like Phillips and Voto in the next few years.

Two or three years are an eternity in 1B years. Unless you know you are dealing Votto over the offseason, you don't hesitate to deal Yonder if the price is right. He;s very talented, but first base is on position that is relatively easy to fill if need be.

Caveat Emperor
08-01-2011, 01:02 PM
As far as I see it, the challenge facing Walt is that this isn't really a team that can be improved on the margins. It needs an impact piece or two and that's not going to be easy.

The Reds need a hammer at the top of the rotation and another bopper in the middle of the lineup.

They held their cards and didn't overplay this hand, but if they want to be taken seriously in 2012, they're going to have to find some way to get those two pieces in place.