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View Full Version : Why did WALT bring Yonder up?



batsfan
07-31-2011, 10:39 PM
Let me first say that I disagree with many of Dusty's moves, and think the Reds would be much better with a different manager. However, I don't blame his decision to not start Yonder Alonso in left. I've watched Alonso in left all year for the Bats and his defense will make you MISS Gomes (and Dunn as well). His bat may be ready for a shot as a major league starter, but his defense is nowhere near major league quality. Heisey and Lewis are both great defensive outfielders, Heisey deserves the chance as a starter, and Lewis is a proven major league bat. While I think Alonso should not have been kept on the bench for EVERY game that he has been up for, I think the question we should ask is not why Dusty won't start him, but why Walt Jocketty brought him up! Sappelt is having as good of a year or better as Alonso in AAA and is a good outfielder as well. If the 40 man issue is a problem (trade Maloney to give him the chance he deserves), then Hermida is a former quality major leaguer, who is tearing up AAA and would be a lefty bat who could provide average defense. It does not help the Reds or Alonso's development to strand him on the bench like this.

SirFelixCat
07-31-2011, 11:16 PM
If Alonso isn't playing everyday (or close to it), imo, he should be getting AB's and working on his defense in Louisville. Many of us thought he was a place holder until a move was made then he could be sent down. Seeing as that didn't happen, I have no idea why he's up here. His bat definitely plays, but he's wasting away on the bench and not getting better. :(

HokieRed
07-31-2011, 11:23 PM
He's up because he can hit. But they haven't figured out the solution yet. I'm figuring that if he gets 100 AB's the MVP will figure out that the way to win is for him to volunteer to put on a left fielder's glove. I'm sure Votto doesn't want to leave 1b, but he just might want to win enough to make way for Yonder. I'd love to go up against some of the league's righthanders with Votto, Bruce, and Alonso in the middle of the lineup.

Tom Servo
07-31-2011, 11:29 PM
I like how you capitalized WALT like it's he's a robot and WALT is an acronym.

nate
07-31-2011, 11:30 PM
I like how you capitalized WALT like it's he's a robot and WALT is an acronym.

It is:

We
Aren't
Liking
Trades

:cool:

Slyder
07-31-2011, 11:33 PM
I'll ask again did Yonder play 3b AT ALL since being drafted? Maybe give him a shot while Rolen's out? He couldn't be much worse than Juan Francisco there could he?

marcshoe
08-01-2011, 12:20 AM
I don't know. I was under the impression that Francisco had really improved his defense. Not that we've been able to see that for ourselves. And I keep hearing how bad Yonder is in left. I think it's time to see, at least on a trial basis.

I thought they brought him up to show he could play there, and that they'd then move him as part of a trade. I guess this may still be the plan, looking at an offseason deal.

Ghosts of 1990
08-01-2011, 12:28 AM
My opinion is he was brought up to strengthen the 25 man roster and make a run for things this year. Instead of a trade to bring in a 'big' LH bat, we'll bring up Alonso who can rake LH right now whether it be starting 1-2 times per week here and there or being the first guy off the bench in a big spot. And it is best for the big league club NOW, but probably not Alonso's best interest in development.

Not a surplus of LH quality hitters on this team other than Votto and Bruce. A LH hitter was needed and as soon as they pulled him up I had a feeling they were not going to go get a bat.

mth123
08-01-2011, 04:07 AM
Let me first say that I disagree with many of Dusty's moves, and think the Reds would be much better with a different manager. However, I don't blame his decision to not start Yonder Alonso in left. I've watched Alonso in left all year for the Bats and his defense will make you MISS Gomes (and Dunn as well). His bat may be ready for a shot as a major league starter, but his defense is nowhere near major league quality. Heisey and Lewis are both great defensive outfielders, Heisey deserves the chance as a starter, and Lewis is a proven major league bat. While I think Alonso should not have been kept on the bench for EVERY game that he has been up for, I think the question we should ask is not why Dusty won't start him, but why Walt Jocketty brought him up! Sappelt is having as good of a year or better as Alonso in AAA and is a good outfielder as well. If the 40 man issue is a problem (trade Maloney to give him the chance he deserves), then Hermida is a former quality major leaguer, who is tearing up AAA and would be a lefty bat who could provide average defense. It does not help the Reds or Alonso's development to strand him on the bench like this.

Interesting to hear from somebody who has watched him a lot in Louisville. Yonder needs to be on the block. That bat won't get in the line-up and the Reds can't be wasting resources having him sit around.

batsfan
08-01-2011, 09:41 AM
I'll ask again did Yonder play 3b AT ALL since being drafted? Maybe give him a shot while Rolen's out? He couldn't be much worse than Juan Francisco there could he?

Oh yes he could. Juan has trouble getting and picking up the ball, but his arm is as good as any in baseball. Yonder would have bad range and a bad arm.

PuffyPig
08-01-2011, 09:46 AM
I'll ask again did Yonder play 3b AT ALL since being drafted? Maybe give him a shot while Rolen's out? He couldn't be much worse than Juan Francisco there could he?


Alonso has trouble playing a passable LF, and you want to try him at third when he has never played the position before?

Slyder
08-01-2011, 09:48 AM
Alonso has trouble playing a passable LF, and you want to try him at third when he has never played the position before?

I remember reading somewhere he played 3rd sparingly at the University of Miami and was just wandering if he had played there since being drafted is all.

osuceltic
08-01-2011, 11:09 AM
He's up because he can hit. But they haven't figured out the solution yet. I'm figuring that if he gets 100 AB's the MVP will figure out that the way to win is for him to volunteer to put on a left fielder's glove. I'm sure Votto doesn't want to leave 1b, but he just might want to win enough to make way for Yonder. I'd love to go up against some of the league's righthanders with Votto, Bruce, and Alonso in the middle of the lineup.

Not happening.

corkedbat
08-01-2011, 11:23 AM
I wante to see Alonso up to see if he can handle LF. If he just here to PH and backup JV, I'd rather see him hitting everyday in L'ville

_Sir_Charles_
08-01-2011, 11:41 AM
Interesting to hear from somebody who has watched him a lot in Louisville. Yonder needs to be on the block. That bat won't get in the line-up and the Reds can't be wasting resources having him sit around.

I agree that it's interesting to hear this info from an avid Bats watcher. However...listing Lewis as a "great defensive outfielder" makes me take the opinion with a grain of salt. No offense to the original poster...but to me Lewis is anything BUT a great defensive outfielder.

TRF
08-01-2011, 12:25 PM
Alonso as a Red, is as the team's next 1B. Period. He's reportedly not a good defender in LF. In fact, I haven't ever read a good review of his defense at 1B either. Reports suggest he has old player skills/body type. He's a DH in the making. He COULD be Votto's replacement in a couple of years ala Ryan Howard/Thome, but i really see no fit for him now or in the future. Next year's starting 3B is probably Frasier. He's getting his audition now. SS is Cozart's to lose, just as it was Janish's to lose, and well, he did. the OF is likely Heisey, Stubbs and Bruce barring a trade, and Stubbs is the guy most likely to be traded, as he would bring back the most talent without the reds giving up too much.

It's time the Reds started looking at moving Alonso, JF, Dorn (Free Danny Dorn!) Maloney and a few others. Sappelt might be the LF if Stubbs is traded with Heisey moving to CF.

But as for Alonso, He'll never bring the value to the Reds that they paid to draft him. I don't think he has contributed enough to the Reds to justify his signing bonus, and he won't bring back enough in trade either. Maybe he'll be better than Justin Smoak, but the Mariners didn't think so, and Smoak isn't tearing up the AL by any means.

Honestly, since the Reds made zero moves, and Alonso really didn't play, It made almost no sense to bring him up.

HokieRed
08-01-2011, 12:31 PM
Not happening.

Why not? Is the MVP both managing and Gming this team? I'm not saying Votto should be forced to move; I'm saying give Alonso 100 AB's and let's see how good he is.

batsfan
08-01-2011, 12:43 PM
I agree that it's interesting to hear this info from an avid Bats watcher. However...listing Lewis as a "great defensive outfielder" makes me take the opinion with a grain of salt. No offense to the original poster...but to me Lewis is anything BUT a great defensive outfielder.

I have not really seen Lewis enough to judge his defense, but his UZR in left is high. Maybe I should have said that Heisey is a great defensive outfielder, and Lewis is at least an average replacement in left who is also a veteran. I am anything but at scout, so my opinion about Alonso's defense may be wrong, but it seems like there have been countless times this year where Alonso has not been able to reach the ball, misjudged the ball, or made an easy play look hard.

RedsManRick
08-01-2011, 01:52 PM
I think the answer is that Walt brought him up to:

1) Strengthen the bench. Particularly when Lewis was starts, there are no other lefties on the bench.

2) Showcase him for the off-season. Assuming the Reds believe in his bat, getting him a chance to do some damage against major league teams will enhance his trade value.

dougdirt
08-01-2011, 02:59 PM
Yonder Alonso can play left field. It isn't good, but it isn't to the point where he is going to clearly be the worst defender in the league either. He should absolutely get at a bare minimum of 125 PA's the rest of the season in the Majors. There is no excuse that I will listen to other than injury that is acceptable.

marcshoe
08-01-2011, 04:42 PM
Looks like he's starting in left tonight.

_Sir_Charles_
08-01-2011, 04:44 PM
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2011/08/01/were-the-reds-working-on-something-big/


A reader tipped me a while back that he has a friend in baseball who told him the Reds were talking to the Blue Jays about a trade Jose Bautista-for-Joey Votto trade. The Reds would have had to kick in a prospect as well.

Caveat Emperor
08-01-2011, 04:48 PM
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2011/08/01/were-the-reds-working-on-something-big/

I'd have pulled the trigger.

Big Klu
08-01-2011, 05:27 PM
I think too much has been made over why Alonso hasn't been in the starting lineup yet. He has only been up for six games so far:



Tuesday, July 26: Alonso didn't arrive until the game had already started due to the trade of Jonny Gomes. Also the Mets started LHP Jonathan Niese, so when Gomes was scratched Heisey became the logical starter in LF.

Wednesday, July 27: Heisey started again, this time against Mets RHP Mike Pelfrey. It is not unusual for a young player to sit for a couple of days after being called up to get his bearings. Besides, Heisey deserves a shot.

Thursday, July 28: Heisey started again, as the Mets started LHP Chris Capuano.

Friday, July 29: Lewis started in LF vs. Giants RHP Ryan Vogelsong. I was mildly surprised, as I expected Alonso to start. But Baker made the right call, as Lewis was 3-for-4 with a double and a run scored. It has been suggested by others that the Reds preferred Lewis over Alonso defensively for that game, as well. While I think Lewis is pretty abysmal defensively, I will concede that he likely has better range than Alonso. (I know that a lot of fans are saying that we don't know how bad Alonso is in LF because we haven't seen him yet. But the Reds have seen him--they have people at Louisville who evaluate players on a daily basis. They know all about Alonso's defensive skills and potential shortcomings.)

Saturday, July 30: Heisey started vs. Giants LHP Madison Bumgarner.

Sunday, July 31: Heisey started vs. Giants LHP Barry Zito.



So the Reds have faced a LHP in four of the six games since Alonso has joined the club, and one of the two games against a RHP was his first full day after his callup. Additionally, Heisey (who the public has been calling for) has started five of the those six games in LF, while Lewis was 3-for-4 in the other game. Patience, everyone. Alonso will get his chance--reports are that he is starting tonight.

dougdirt
08-01-2011, 05:37 PM
So the Reds have faced a LHP in four of the six games since Alonso has joined the club, and one of the two games against a RHP was his first full day after his callup. Additionally, Heisey (who the public has been calling for) has started five of the those six games in LF, while Lewis was 3-for-4 in the other game. Patience, everyone. Alonso will get his chance--reports are that he is starting tonight.

Yonder Alonso vs LHP in AAA this season: .313/.380/.527 with 13 walks and 19 strikeouts in 126 PA.

Big Klu
08-01-2011, 05:44 PM
Yonder Alonso vs LHP in AAA this season: .313/.380/.527 with 13 walks and 19 strikeouts in 126 PA.

Good for him. But he's not going to see much action against LHP's here--at least this season. Heisey, Stubbs, and Bruce will be the OF vs. lefties.

dougdirt
08-01-2011, 05:55 PM
Good for him. But he's not going to see much action against LHP's here--at least this season. Heisey, Stubbs, and Bruce will be the OF vs. lefties.

Why should Heisey get starts vs LHP? .610 OPS this season against them. .546 OPS against them last year. He can't hit them. At all.

TRF
08-01-2011, 06:11 PM
Why should Heisey get starts vs LHP? .610 OPS this season against them. .546 OPS against them last year. He can't hit them. At all.

oy flippin vey.

you mean the 38 AB's this year? and the 89 AB's last year, his rookie year? in sporadic undefined playing time? Please.

He hit .345 against them in 55 AB's at AAA in 2009. I'd no more believe that was what he will hit against them than the numbers he's posted this year.

Small Sample Size... ya think?

dougdirt
08-01-2011, 06:16 PM
oy flippin vey.

you mean the 38 AB's this year? and the 89 AB's last year, his rookie year? in sporadic undefined playing time? Please.

He hit .345 against them in 55 AB's at AAA in 2009. I'd no more believe that was what he will hit against them than the numbers he's posted this year.

Small Sample Size... ya think?

If it were just a simple poor BABIP thing for the numbers, I would say ok....

But he has 8 walks and 39 strikeouts against LHP in 141 PA against them. That is a strikeout in 27% of his PA's and a walk in just 5.6% of them. That suggests he has problems seeing the ball from lefties or picking up the spin on the ball from lefties. Maybe I am wrong. But I just think the guy struggles to see the ball from lefties for some reason because his plate discipline vs RHP is fine and its very poor against LHP.

TRF
08-01-2011, 06:25 PM
I disagree. I think it is a combination of small sample, erratic PT and that he is a second year player. Now, you could be right. it is possible that he simply cannot hit LH pitching. I'd also counter that with when did he enter the game during those AB's? Off the bench or as a starter? IMO there isn't enough data on Heisey at the major league level to state that, when he never had a problem hitting LH pitching in the minors.

RedsManRick
08-01-2011, 10:56 PM
If it were just a simple poor BABIP thing for the numbers, I would say ok....

But he has 8 walks and 39 strikeouts against LHP in 141 PA against them. That is a strikeout in 27% of his PA's and a walk in just 5.6% of them. That suggests he has problems seeing the ball from lefties or picking up the spin on the ball from lefties. Maybe I am wrong. But I just think the guy struggles to see the ball from lefties for some reason because his plate discipline vs RHP is fine and its very poor against LHP.

Remember Jonny Gomes' walk and strikeout rates early this season? I wouldn't dismiss the possibility that Heisey has a reverse platoon split, but the history of MLB tells us that that's pretty rate.

In the FWIW department, he has struggled against change ups so far in his career -- though again, SSS.

nemesis
08-01-2011, 11:15 PM
My thought today on the subject came to this:

Alonso will get his time in LF as the season progresses. A spot start here and there at 1B.

IF he hits well, it may prompt Walt to go ahead and move Votto and parts in the Off-Season say for Mike Trout, Dan Haren and parts.

I think this is a back door audition for him.

edabbs44
08-05-2011, 09:45 PM
Yonder Alonso can play left field. It isn't good, but it isn't to the point where he is going to clearly be the worst defender in the league either. He should absolutely get at a bare minimum of 125 PA's the rest of the season in the Majors. There is no excuse that I will listen to other than injury that is acceptable.

He's had a less than impressive start out there.

Kc61
08-05-2011, 09:51 PM
He's had a less than impressive start out there.

Maybe but this guy can hit. Right now in a clutch situation I would rather see Yonder up there than guys like Stubbs and Bruce.

Many teams have slow guys in LF, I can live with it. Frankly, the Reds need his bat particularly from the left side.

I would be patient with Alonso out there and start him there most days.

dougdirt
08-05-2011, 09:55 PM
He's had a less than impressive start out there.

He had one bad play out there on a strange hop in Wrigley. I feel comfortable saying that he isn't the only left fielder in baseball who turns that ball into an inside the park job. If there were 3 more feet out there between the line and the wall, that is a double at best.

edabbs44
08-05-2011, 09:55 PM
Maybe but this guy can hit. Right now in a clutch situation I would rather see Yonder up there than guys like Stubbs and Bruce.

Many teams have slow guys in LF, I can live with it. Frankly, the Reds need his bat particularly from the left side.

I would be patient with Alonso out there and start him there most days.

Yep, he can hit. That's for sure. But he better be taking flies out there all winter.

edabbs44
08-05-2011, 10:00 PM
He had one bad play out there on a strange hop in Wrigley. I feel comfortable saying that he isn't the only left fielder in baseball who turns that ball into an inside the park job. If there were 3 more feet out there between the line and the wall, that is a double at best.

He misplayed a fly ball the other night as well. But I think you are giving him too much credit. That play was pretty bad today. He might have just had a bad go of it so far, but he hasn't looked good at all out there.

mattfeet
08-05-2011, 10:00 PM
He had one bad play out there on a strange hop in Wrigley. I feel comfortable saying that he isn't the only left fielder in baseball who turns that ball into an inside the park job. If there were 3 more feet out there between the line and the wall, that is a double at best.

And in Alonso's defense on that play, Marty B said that the Cubs' TV announcers told him that has happened to at least 5-7 other LF'ers from opposing teams this season alone. It honestly was just an unlucky bounce that got away from Alonso. It was the perfect storm allowing Campana the inside-the-park HR with his speed, combined with a horrific bounce, with Alonso's lack of foot speed.

-Matt

Kc61
08-05-2011, 10:01 PM
Yep, he can hit. That's for sure. But he better be taking flies out there all winter.

Or they can trade him. But this team lacks hitters like Alonso. He appears to me to be a gifted hitter, similar to a young Sean Casey.

The Reds lack hitters like this. They lack guys who make consistent contact. What's more, Yonder can take a walk.

Dusty, using a seniority system, hit Yonder seventh today. I'd rather see him hit fifth in this lineup.

I agree Yonder needs to work on LF but a couple of bad plays early on don't worry me too much.

We are talking left field here. Left field.

Orenda
08-05-2011, 10:08 PM
Dusty, using a seniority system, hit Yonder seventh today. I'd rather see him hit fifth in this lineup.

I.

I wouldn't sweat that, I recall when Dusty Baker hit prove em wrong AAAA 1b Joey Votto 7th, until he kept hitting. Meanwhile BA player of the year, Jay Bruce was inserted into the middle of the order. If he keeps hitting... eventually Dusty will notice his ability. But I wouldn't bank on 2 lefties in a row, let's be realistic

edabbs44
08-05-2011, 10:14 PM
And in Alonso's defense on that play, Marty B said that the Cubs' TV announcers told him that has happened to at least 5-7 other LF'ers from opposing teams this season alone. It honestly was just an unlucky bounce that got away from Alonso. It was the perfect storm allowing Campana the inside-the-park HR with his speed, combined with a horrific bounce, with Alonso's lack of foot speed.

-Matt

I would love to see that list. It's not like it is a surprise that there isn't much foul territory out there.

Kc61
08-05-2011, 10:15 PM
For the stub end of this season, against RHP, get Alonso and Francisco in there and suddenly some runs will score. Against LHP get Sappelt and Frazier in there and it will help.

And, although still young, try Mesoraco behind the plate and there may be even more production.

If you won't sign free agents or make trades, try some new bats (or should I say Bats). The current ones ain't working.

dougdirt
08-05-2011, 10:53 PM
He misplayed a fly ball the other night as well. But I think you are giving him too much credit. That play was pretty bad today. He might have just had a bad go of it so far, but he hasn't looked good at all out there.

I missed that one apparently. Someone else mentioned it to me the other day and I couldn't recall it then either. Must have walked out of the room for a minute. Care to describe it?

And really, even if he did. I still don't think he is brutal out there. He isn't good. But I don't think his routes are all that bad for a left fielder. He made a good play at the wall in todays game and the inside the park HR, he took an excellent angle on and got to it pretty quickly. Just bad luck with the ricochet.

osuceltic
08-05-2011, 11:49 PM
I missed that one apparently. Someone else mentioned it to me the other day and I couldn't recall it then either. Must have walked out of the room for a minute. Care to describe it?

And really, even if he did. I still don't think he is brutal out there. He isn't good. But I don't think his routes are all that bad for a left fielder. He made a good play at the wall in todays game and the inside the park HR, he took an excellent angle on and got to it pretty quickly. Just bad luck with the ricochet.

That's an unbelievably kind description of his play on that ball. He butchered it. I don't blame him -- he's not an outfielder. He's a one-position player. The sooner the Reds realize it and cash in that asset (or Votto, if they choose to go that route), the better. They've waited too long already.

dougdirt
08-06-2011, 12:16 AM
That's an unbelievably kind description of his play on that ball. He butchered it. I don't blame him -- he's not an outfielder. He's a one-position player. The sooner the Reds realize it and cash in that asset (or Votto, if they choose to go that route), the better. They've waited too long already.

He should have made the play. But he is far from the only left fielder to make a similar play this season in Wrigley. So far we have one, perhaps two plays that people are using to suggest he absolutely has no chance of playing left field. I have seen him play left field about 50 times this season. He isn't good out there, but I believe that he can absolutely play out there and not kill you. His play today didn't even cost the Reds a run. The next batter doubled and both runners would have scored anyways.

Guacarock
08-06-2011, 01:17 AM
Geez, you guys are tough! Alonso's hitting .462 with a .500 OBP, .615 SLG and 1.115 OPS. And some of you want to dump him because he didn't scoop up one crazy ricochet shot off the wall at Wrigley!

Using that line of reasoning, we should have dealt Chapman immediately after his meltdown in May when he walked four Cardinals and surrendered four earned runs in one-third of an inning.

Even if this one play foreshadows more defensive challenges, it's premature to rush to judge on Alonso, when he might yet make an enormous contribution with the Reds. Maybe we will have to shade him some in LF, using him only in selective situations and replacing him late in games with Frazier, Heisey or Lewis. If he can outhit them .100 or more basis points across the board, then you do what you have to do to get his bat into the lineup when you can. When you can't, you make him your Numero Uno pinch hitter and designated 1B sub when Votto needs a breather.

I'd much rather hide a special bat like that on our 25-man roster than a Rule 5 pickup, particularly knowing that Votto could be gone sooner than any of us would like. If so, then we'll be in fine shape if we hold onto Alonso, but up a creek without a paddle if we trade him off in a knee-jerk style that minimizes his value. We did that with Konerko and that was one of the dumbest trades the Reds ever made, especially so because the wound was long-term (contributing heavily to our Lost Decade) and self-inflicted.

Some of my favorite Reds' outfielders of all time had major defensive warts. Adam Dunn comes to mind, but also Deion Sanders and, more recently, Jonny Gomes. Not every player is an all-around player. Ideally, you seek balance, but if a player is a game-changer on offense, or on defense, you compensate for the shortfalls by surrounding that player with supporting, complementary platoon mates. It's not rocket science, but it does require some smarts.

Let's see what we've got, and what we need to do to maximize what we have, before possibly throwing the Babe out with the beer-stenched, Wrigley bath water.

kaldaniels
08-06-2011, 01:18 AM
Alonso has that look of a tough out. I know that is hard to back up with numbers, but it seems he has a chance every at-bat.

edabbs44
08-06-2011, 02:44 AM
I missed that one apparently. Someone else mentioned it to me the other day and I couldn't recall it then either. Must have walked out of the room for a minute. Care to describe it?

And really, even if he did. I still don't think he is brutal out there. He isn't good. But I don't think his routes are all that bad for a left fielder. He made a good play at the wall in todays game and the inside the park HR, he took an excellent angle on and got to it pretty quickly. Just bad luck with the ricochet.

Houston, lazy liner to left, he takes a step back, freezes and then comes in. Ball drops right in front of him. Iirc, 2 runs score.

edabbs44
08-06-2011, 02:45 AM
He should have made the play. But he is far from the only left fielder to make a similar play this season in Wrigley. So far we have one, perhaps two plays that people are using to suggest he absolutely has no chance of playing left field. I have seen him play left field about 50 times this season. He isn't good out there, but I believe that he can absolutely play out there and not kill you. His play today didn't even cost the Reds a run. The next batter doubled and both runners would have scored anyways.

You can't assume that the next guy doubles if he holds the runners at 2nd and 3rd.

dougdirt
08-06-2011, 03:20 AM
Houston, lazy liner to left, he takes a step back, freezes and then comes in. Ball drops right in front of him. Iirc, 2 runs score.

Ok, that is what I was hoping you were talking about. I have seen Gomes do that 15 times this year. Alonso isn't the only guy who does that.

dougdirt
08-06-2011, 03:25 AM
You can't assume that the next guy doubles if he holds the runners at 2nd and 3rd.

Well if we are going to play hypotheticals, I want to just assume that Pena hits a 3 run bomb because Leake worries about the runners on the bases and grooves an even better one.

What we actually know though is that the next batter crushed a ball for a double. If Alonso gets charged with an error on that play instead of it being ruled a HR, the runs still go down as earned on Leake.

edabbs44
08-06-2011, 09:04 AM
Ok, that is what I was hoping you were talking about. I have seen Gomes do that 15 times this year. Alonso isn't the only guy who does that.

15 might be a little high.

edabbs44
08-06-2011, 09:07 AM
Well if we are going to play hypotheticals, I want to just assume that Pena hits a 3 run bomb because Leake worries about the runners on the bases and grooves an even better one.

What we actually know though is that the next batter crushed a ball for a double. If Alonso gets charged with an error on that play instead of it being ruled a HR, the runs still go down as earned on Leake.

You are the one playing hypotheticals. If Leake gets abused all inning after that play, then I agree. But he didn't.

I get the feeling that you are overly defending those plays bc you stuck your neck out saying he wasn't that bad in the field. He has looked that bad to date, but it doesn't mean he is that bad. That determination will be able o be made after we see him in action some more.

buckeyenut
08-06-2011, 09:37 AM
Yeah, it was a bad play, but the far more important thing I have seen from Yonder is that he can absolutely RAKE at the plate. I know it is too early to know anything for sure, but he sure does have a nice swing.

reds1869
08-06-2011, 10:14 AM
Ok, that is what I was hoping you were talking about. I have seen Gomes do that 15 times this year. Alonso isn't the only guy who does that.

Stubbs does it several times a night. He just gets away with it because of his speed. Alonso is a bad fielder but I think he can learn to be passable out there given time. His bat says he deserves the chance.

mth123
08-06-2011, 01:20 PM
I don't understand why there is a debate at this point.

1. Alonso should play LF every day.
2. If he proves he can play out there great.
3. If not, he still needs to have his bat in the line-up to show that he can hit ML pitching.
4. If he can play OK, the huge problem of LF and middle of the order offense is solved.
5. If he proves to be a butcher, he still shows a capable bat that will facilitate a deal to some offense challenged team that would want him to play 1B or DH.
6. If he proves to be unable to hit, back to AAA for another shot down the road.

In any event, more time in AAA now or on the bench in the big leagues doesn't do anything to advance the plan for Yonder and the Reds.

remdog
08-06-2011, 01:44 PM
I have no idea if Yonder can play the outfield (although I seriously doubt it) but that play actually had me laughing. He looked like a big, lumbering bear on roller skates.

I'm guessing that Walt is trying to see if Yonder can hit in bigs and, if so, either he or Votto are gone over the winter.

Just a thought.

Rem

OldXOhio
08-06-2011, 02:07 PM
I have no idea if Yonder can play the outfield (although I seriously doubt it) but that play actually had me laughing. He looked like a bid, lumbering bear on roller skates.

I'm guessing that Walt is trying to see if Yonder can hit in bigs and, if so, either he or Votto are gone over the winter.

Just a thought.

Rem

Who is this "Walt" guy you keep referring to?

RedsManRick
08-06-2011, 02:41 PM
It just occurred to me that Alonso is a left-handed, Cuban Billy Butler. Built the same way, both can take a walk, both make good contact, both have 20-25 HR power. I suppose I'm not the first person to make that comp and it doesn't really mean anything, but just came to mind.

hebroncougar
08-06-2011, 02:46 PM
I don't understand why there is a debate at this point.

1. Alonso should play LF every day.
2. If he proves he can play out there great.
3. If not, he still needs to have his bat in the line-up to show that he can hit ML pitching.
4. If he can play OK, the huge problem of LF and middle of the order offense is solved.
5. If he proves to be a butcher, he still shows a capable bat that will facilitate a deal to some offense challenged team that would want him to play 1B or DH.
6. If he proves to be unable to hit, back to AAA for another shot down the road.

In any event, more time in AAA now or on the bench in the big leagues doesn't do anything to advance the plan for Yonder and the Reds.


Yes, this X 1000. From now until the the end of the year. Cut the guy a break for God's sake. He had never played in Wrigley, it was the first game of the series, probably hadn't even practiced caroms at the field. I, for one, want to know if he can hack it. But a 3 day sample size, WHILE, he's learning to hit major league pitching is a tough row to hoe for anyone.

thatcoolguy_22
08-06-2011, 03:07 PM
I'm really liking Alonso's approach at the plate. He reminds me of a young Lance Berkman. Same eye for the strike zone, similar power potential, and te swings even look close.

I want to see Alonso in at least 3 of every 5 games to finish the year.

RedsManRick
08-06-2011, 04:01 PM
Quick question, just to put it out there. Is there any chance that if he embarrases himself in LF it would hurt his trade value -- even as a 1B? That is, might teams view his LF defense and consciously or subconsciously think less of his ability to play 1B?

LoganBuck
08-06-2011, 04:06 PM
Ok Yonder scares the crap out of me every time a ball goes up in the air. Maybe he can get better. But yikes. Votto used to play a passable left. Maybe he should volunteer, because I am sick of watching him play first as well.

osuceltic
08-06-2011, 04:06 PM
It just occurred to me that Alonso is a left-handed, Cuban Billy Butler. Built the same way, both can take a walk, both make good contact, both have 20-25 HR power. I suppose I'm not the first person to make that comp and it doesn't really mean anything, but just came to mind.

Reminds me of Scott Hatteberg at the plate -- and I mean that as a compliment. Good approach, good swing, good hitter. Just not seeing tremendous power yet -- although that could develop.

traderumor
08-06-2011, 04:09 PM
I don't know, but he is certainly making me think of Lonnie Smith's nickname, "Skates," out there.

I'm sure he isn't showing anything here that any other team of interest hasn't already seen in Louisville.

What will happen is that he will back the Reds into a corner on who they deal, though, Alonso or Votto. The answer to me is all about the return, which I can tell you which is going to get you more on the trade market.

dougdirt
08-06-2011, 04:09 PM
That one was bad....

But I still maintain that he isn't nearly as bad as he has looked out there this series.

lollipopcurve
08-06-2011, 04:15 PM
Well, the Votto/Alonso logjam will be resolved by April 2012. Count on it.

Tom Servo
08-06-2011, 04:17 PM
There's the power. 1st homer of his career.

signalhome
08-06-2011, 04:33 PM
There's the power. 1st homer of his career.

And he is rewarded by being double-switched out of the game. The only thing that's going to fix his below-average defense in left is more playing time. This season is over, and this game is certainly over, so why not just leave him out there and get him some work in?

dougdirt
08-06-2011, 04:36 PM
And he is rewarded by being double-switched out of the game. The only thing that's going to fix his below-average defense in left is more playing time. This season is over, and this game is certainly over, so why not just leave him out there and get him some work in?

Hey now, its only 10-3. They can still come back, so you have to make the double switch!

IslandRed
08-06-2011, 04:37 PM
And he is rewarded by being double-switched out of the game. The only thing that's going to fix his below-average defense in left is more playing time. This season is over, and this game is certainly over, so why not just leave him out there and get him some work in?

Until roster expansion, every out we give away in garbage time is more pitches for an already tired bullpen to throw.

Not saying it was the right call, mind you, but shoddy defense is not a victimless crime.

Kc61
08-06-2011, 04:40 PM
And he is rewarded by being double-switched out of the game. The only thing that's going to fix his below-average defense in left is more playing time. This season is over, and this game is certainly over, so why not just leave him out there and get him some work in?

I'm afraid that more playing time in left may not help Yonder, but may only result in more runs being allowed. Having watched him today - pretty brutal.

Reds really need to resolve the Alonso - Votto situation. You just can't accumulate players who don't fit together. This was predictable when Yonder was drafted.

Still, the front office makes no move . . . .

OldXOhio
08-06-2011, 04:57 PM
And he is rewarded by being double-switched out of the game. The only thing that's going to fix his below-average defense in left is more playing time. This season is over, and this game is certainly over, so why not just leave him out there and get him some work in?

Or put him at 1st and give Votto a rest.

OnBaseMachine
08-06-2011, 04:59 PM
There's the power. 1st homer of his career.

That was impressive. It was a no doubter off the bat. I really like his swing and plate approach.

Joseph
08-06-2011, 05:14 PM
That one was bad....

But I still maintain that he isn't nearly as bad as he has looked out there this series.

I'll second that. I've seen him several times in Louisville and he hasn't been this bad. Pin one on Dusty for starting him in the Windy City for his first extended action.

reds44
08-06-2011, 05:17 PM
As somebody who has been as opposed to trading Votto as can be, if Yonder hits these last two months, you really have to consider it.

traderumor
08-06-2011, 05:17 PM
I'll second that. I've seen him several times in Louisville and he hasn't been this bad. Pin one on Dusty for starting him in the Windy City for his first extended action.
Oh, come on. Those plays had nothing to do with LF at Wrigley today. The thread is started wondering why they bring him up, now Dusty is an idiot for playing him. Amazing.

reds44
08-06-2011, 05:18 PM
Btw, just saw Alonso's homer and dude was limping around the bases. I'm sure that has something to do with why he was double switched out.

Griffey012
08-06-2011, 05:20 PM
I'll second that. I've seen him several times in Louisville and he hasn't been this bad. Pin one on Dusty for starting him in the Windy City for his first extended action.

Yup, Pin everything on Dusty

mth123
08-06-2011, 05:22 PM
Quick question, just to put it out there. Is there any chance that if he embarrases himself in LF it would hurt his trade value -- even as a 1B? That is, might teams view his LF defense and consciously or subconsciously think less of his ability to play 1B?

He played 1B in college and in the minors. Teams already know what he can do there. Its more important to show that he can make the jump to hitting off of big league pitching.

Any team that transfers Alonso's struggles in LF to his established 1B skillset is probably going to be too difficult to deal with anyway.

lollipopcurve
08-06-2011, 05:40 PM
Btw, just saw Alonso's homer and dude was limping around the bases. I'm sure that has something to do with why he was double switched out.

Agreed. Looked like he had at least strained something.

CrackerJack
08-06-2011, 06:06 PM
Agreed. Looked like he had at least strained something.

Yeah I hope that isn't what he normally looks like running the bases...

OldXOhio
08-06-2011, 06:11 PM
Oh, come on. Those plays had nothing to do with LF at Wrigley today. The thread is started wondering why they bring him up, now Dusty is an idiot for playing him. Amazing.

Yeah, i'll be the first to admit i'm not an avid fan of Dusty, but come on is right. You bring him up to play him, particularly when he's hitting like YA is.