PDA

View Full Version : Deadline recap: Jayson Stark and Jeff Passan call Reds losers at the deadline.



Redsfansince72
07-31-2011, 10:40 PM
Both sports columnists Jeff Passan and Jayson Stark posted this today:


Jeff Passan
23. Florida Marlins and Cincinnati Reds, who share a slot as losers because neither bothered to do anything. The Marlins had plenty of pieces to dump. They’re holding onto them so they can look better in the new stadium that no one’s going to go to. The Reds are a mess of disappointments, ostensibly alive in the NL Central race but not helping themselves by, say, continuing to bury catcher Devin Mesoraco(notes) at Triple-A while any number of teams would like Ramon Hernandez(notes). The Reds weren’t buyers. They weren’t sellers. They were just nonentities.


Jayson Stark
The Reds have been one of baseball's biggest disappointments on the field. This week, they were also one of baseball's biggest disappointments off the field. It seemed as if they were in the mix for every big name out there -- and came away with NO names, big or small.

"And the thing is, they've got a farm system that's loaded with pieces to move, too," said one front-office man. "That's hard to understand, especially in such a winnable division."

Red Raindog
07-31-2011, 11:07 PM
Both sports columnists Jeff Passan and Jayson Stark posted this today:


Jeff Passan
23. Florida Marlins and Cincinnati Reds, who share a slot as losers because neither bothered to do anything. The Marlins had plenty of pieces to dump. They’re holding onto them so they can look better in the new stadium that no one’s going to go to. The Reds are a mess of disappointments, ostensibly alive in the NL Central race but not helping themselves by, say, continuing to bury catcher Devin Mesoraco(notes) at Triple-A while any number of teams would like Ramon Hernandez(notes). The Reds weren’t buyers. They weren’t sellers. They were just nonentities.


Jayson Stark
The Reds have been one of baseball's biggest disappointments on the field. This week, they were also one of baseball's biggest disappointments off the field. It seemed as if they were in the mix for every big name out there -- and came away with NO names, big or small.

"And the thing is, they've got a farm system that's loaded with pieces to move, too," said one front-office man. "That's hard to understand, especially in such a winnable division."

If the reports are right about what was being asked of the Reds and the returning players -- I'm happy to pass

I thought Ramon would be moved but he has been a positive this year so -- shrug

DocRed
07-31-2011, 11:07 PM
Walt=failed miserably at his job

FireDusty
07-31-2011, 11:08 PM
Walt will get the last laugh.

R_Webb18
07-31-2011, 11:10 PM
Walt will get the last laugh.

this. don't trade when were obv winning it all still.

sdwagers
07-31-2011, 11:22 PM
not to be cliche' but - sometimes the best trade is the one you don't make.

abish1572
07-31-2011, 11:25 PM
am I the only one that is happy that we didn't unload our farm systems? I mean it'd be good for us to get a good pitcher but I have said and said alot that we have enough talent to win

tobttr
07-31-2011, 11:41 PM
Like lots of posters around here, I'm REAL disappointed at the lack of action at the trade deadline, especially in light of the "We're buyers" comment.
But still, Walt is no idiot. The only thing that makes any sense to me is that he just doesn't feel the Reds have a shot this year, or that the only way they would have a shot would be to decimate the farm system. I don't know how well this strategy will play out though, because I'm sure that StL, Mil and Pit will all be trying to improve themselves over the off-season too.

R_Webb18
08-01-2011, 12:02 AM
there were only 1-2 bats i liked and 1-2 pitchers i liked. the price was to high. maybe with gomes gone we will see decent lf atleast. i also feel like there will be better bat next yr.

LeDoux
08-01-2011, 12:07 AM
Passan vs. Jocketty:

Which of these faces do you trust more in evaluating potential trades?

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSYp2Lc54VF78P89t2GGyEApONBOXmJ3 0XcsmwKcthv_cBp58mZpA

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcShaMVxxyqjAZNHpbvOocXDruUGDnBab yhs0OmfzzqNS4FjvbfF

I'm going with the guy that is old enough to drink.

RedRedhawk
08-01-2011, 12:41 AM
Age of walt and the writer mean nothing. Walt is not the GM i thought we were getting. Our prospects(in AAA) can not both be to good to deal, and not good enough to help the major league team. It is one or the other. I think the Reds think to highly of what they have. We have to give up real talent to get real talent.

It is time to play Todd and Alonso and see what we have.

BluegrassRedleg
08-01-2011, 02:41 AM
Age of walt and the writer mean nothing. Walt is not the GM i thought we were getting. Our prospects(in AAA) can not both be to good to deal, and not good enough to help the major league team. It is one or the other. I think the Reds think to highly of what they have. We have to give up real talent to get real talent.

It is time to play Todd and Alonso and see what we have.

That's a great point. And we all saw how many games the Reds sacrificed earlier this season playing a LF hitting in the .100s and two SS who were struggling royally.

A wasted year.

RedsFanIN
08-01-2011, 04:26 AM
Im not too upset that we didnt make any moves. Lets face it there is no way we were going to be able to beat the Phillies in a best of 7 series so why trade off prospects for someone who will not be able to help you pass this year. There were only a few players that I wanted to see in a Reds uni:Shields, Jimenez, Pence, Bourn and Upton. All of those players could have helped this year and next. 2 of them (Pence and Bourn) were long shots to begin with because of being in the same division as the Stros. As for Hernandez, if we dont trade him this month we still should end up with a draft pick if he walks at the end of the season. I would not be shocked if he doesnt end up a type A free agent.

keeftone
08-01-2011, 09:04 AM
I'm fine with no moves. Jimenez is probably damaged good, either physically, mentally, or both, and none of the other guys mentioned except for Shields or Pence excited me at all. I've seen enough trade deadline deals bring no results at great expense to the future.

There were no Cliff Lees this time out.

bubbachunk
08-01-2011, 09:12 AM
Trade deadline deals should be evaluated like drafts slightly. A quick recap could be done a the end of the season to see which if any trades significantly helped a team win right now and also 2-3 years afterwards when prospects that were acquired show if they were really worth it or not.

Anything else is far to knee jerk of a reaction, but tis our society I suppose.

mikdavrut
08-01-2011, 09:19 AM
I'm fine with no moves. Jimenez is probably damaged good, either physically, mentally, or both, and none of the other guys mentioned except for Shields or Pence excited me at all. I've seen enough trade deadline deals bring no results at great expense to the future.

There were no Cliff Lees this time out.Agree w/you 100%. Pence & Shields were the only 2 players I was really interested in. I think what we currently have now is as good as, if not better than the Ludwicks, Uptons, etc. etc. that were available. I have no idea why so many ppl. seem to have been so high on Jiminez. I did NOT want him AT ALL. I think he is in a decline and I think the pitching we currently have is better (maybe sans Arroyo whom has simple "lost it" for whatever myriad of reasons). No way did I want to give up the talent we have in the farm for some middle of the rotation guy that seems to be on a downward spiral. Shields/Pence....VERY interested. But NOT at the expense that it would have most likely cost us. I'm perfectly content w/Walt staying put.

It's like someone in another thread pointed out; back in 2008, ppl. on this forum were wanting to trade Cueto, Votto and another player whom I am forgetting for Erik Bedard!!! ERIK FREAKIN' BEDARD :laugh: Not saying he's terrible or anything...but THOSE guys for HIM :laugh::lol: Thank GOD this board does not run the organization!

raymo
08-01-2011, 10:24 AM
The fact reds did not trade Hernandez makes us a loser. Frankly if all we did was trade Hernandez we could be winners, just like Gomez trade, addition by subtraction.

Oh wait, then we could have two of the future pieces of the franchise sitting on the bench so Dusty could play his guys. By not playing these young studs, we are hurting the franchise.

brm7675
08-01-2011, 10:57 AM
Tonight on A&E....a hoarder like no other...a man who refuses to part with things or do anything with them...a man who could have shed some unusable things for better things and all we heard was...NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Walt Jockerty on tonight's episode of Hoarders...

TheBigLebowski
08-01-2011, 11:22 AM
Let's take an honest look at the "big names" that were out there this year.

Ubaldo Jimenez. Damaged goods. Rocks would not let potential buyers evaluate him physically. High price tag. One great year with little else. 4.47 era at present. No thanks, despite the favorable contract.

James Shields. Rays put him on the block but apparently snatched him back just as quickly. Having a career year that is not representative of his entire body of work. Good 2/3 starter but not a game changer and not worth the price he would command.

Vargas/Fister. Neither an upgrade. At all.

Bell/Adams. Both would be nice additions but not worth the price. I don't think our bullpen is as good as most people believe, but it's not an area of weakness and the Padres were commanding top prospects for both.

BJ Upton. Low BA, high K, athletic guy, good defender with some pop. I think I've heard of this guy before....the name Drew Stubbs comes to mind.

Mike Bourn. Great WAR, fast as hell, great defender. Only under control through next year. Would have been a nice addition but they probably wanted Stubbs/Alonso+ in return. Not a huge miss.

Pence. Probably the best all-around non-pitcher available and commanded an unreasonably high price due to this. Again, would have been a nice add, but I'd hate to see what we'd have had to give up for him.

I will, however, express my disappointment that Walt didn't move Ramon and Cordero. No reason not to. We have good in-house replacements for both and their value will never be higher. Plus, moving them would not be seen by the fanbase as any type of concession. Just good, solid baseball moves.

I'm not wringing my hands about not making a bad deal; but I would love to know what the F/O and ownership feel we are now.....were we in buy or sell mode?

brm7675
08-01-2011, 11:43 AM
Let's take an honest look at the "big names" that were out there this year.

Ubaldo Jimenez. Damaged goods. Rocks would not let potential buyers evaluate him physically. High price tag. One great year with little else. 4.47 era at present. No thanks, despite the favorable contract.

James Shields. Rays put him on the block but apparently snatched him back just as quickly. Having a career year that is not representative of his entire body of work. Good 2/3 starter but not a game changer and not worth the price he would command.

Vargas/Fister. Neither an upgrade. At all.

Bell/Adams. Both would be nice additions but not worth the price. I don't think our bullpen is as good as most people believe, but it's not an area of weakness and the Padres were commanding top prospects for both.

BJ Upton. Low BA, high K, athletic guy, good defender with some pop. I think I've heard of this guy before....the name Drew Stubbs comes to mind.

Mike Bourn. Great WAR, fast as hell, great defender. Only under control through next year. Would have been a nice addition but they probably wanted Stubbs/Alonso+ in return. Not a huge miss.

Pence. Probably the best all-around non-pitcher available and commanded an unreasonably high price due to this. Again, would have been a nice add, but I'd hate to see what we'd have had to give up for him.

I will, however, express my disappointment that Walt didn't move Ramon and Cordero. No reason not to. We have good in-house replacements for both and their value will never be higher. Plus, moving them would not be seen by the fanbase as any type of concession. Just good, solid baseball moves.

I'm not wringing my hands about not making a bad deal; but I would love to know what the F/O and ownership feel we are now.....were we in buy or sell mode?

We would have had to give up prospects, players who have about maybe if lucky a 50/50 shot of making the major leagues then even a lesser chance of being good. We know Pence is good on teh major league level. Difference between Phillies and Reds....one GM understand you win now and worry about tomorrow.....well tomorrow.

FireDusty
08-01-2011, 11:53 AM
We would have had to give up prospects, players who have about maybe if lucky a 50/50 shot of making the major leagues then even a lesser chance of being good. We know Pence is good on teh major league level. Difference between Phillies and Reds....one GM understand you win now and worry about tomorrow.....well tomorrow.

Name for me please the top prospects that you consider to have a 50/50 shot of even making it to the major leagues?

Girevik
08-01-2011, 11:55 AM
I will, however, express my disappointment that Walt didn't move Ramon and Cordero. No reason not to. We have good in-house replacements for both and their value will never be higher. Plus, moving them would not be seen by the fanbase as any type of concession. Just good, solid baseball moves.

I wouldn't have been crushed to see those guys traded, but I don't see how moving your #1 catcher and/or closer can be seen (by the current players as well as the fans) as anything BUT a statement that this year is lost and it's time to start looking to 2012.

Girevik
08-01-2011, 11:57 AM
Name for me please the top prospects that you consider to have a 50/50 shot of even making it to the major leagues?

50/50 of even making it may be a little harsh, but in general I think prospects are WAY over valued. People want to put a price tag on them that is more indicative of what they MIGHT become if he lives up to all projections, rather than a more realistic projection of what he's likely to become.

No GM wants to be the guy who gives away the "next superstar".

krm1580
08-01-2011, 11:58 AM
For me its pretty simple, the only deals I want to see are for guys that offer significant upgrade over what they Reds currently have and can help for multiple years. No marginal upgrades, no rentals.

Of the guys that changed hands Jimenez was the only guy that fits the bill and I can't see how the Reds would have matched Cleveland's offer since it was built on young high end pitching and not position prospects.

From that perpective I am not sure what people wanted to see.

Red Raindog
08-01-2011, 11:59 AM
Let's take an honest look at the "big names" that were out there this year.

Ubaldo Jimenez. Damaged goods. Rocks would not let potential buyers evaluate him physically. High price tag. One great year with little else. 4.47 era at present. No thanks, despite the favorable contract.

James Shields. Rays put him on the block but apparently snatched him back just as quickly. Having a career year that is not representative of his entire body of work. Good 2/3 starter but not a game changer and not worth the price he would command.

Vargas/Fister. Neither an upgrade. At all.

Bell/Adams. Both would be nice additions but not worth the price. I don't think our bullpen is as good as most people believe, but it's not an area of weakness and the Padres were commanding top prospects for both.

BJ Upton. Low BA, high K, athletic guy, good defender with some pop. I think I've heard of this guy before....the name Drew Stubbs comes to mind.

Mike Bourn. Great WAR, fast as hell, great defender. Only under control through next year. Would have been a nice addition but they probably wanted Stubbs/Alonso+ in return. Not a huge miss.

Pence. Probably the best all-around non-pitcher available and commanded an unreasonably high price due to this. Again, would have been a nice add, but I'd hate to see what we'd have had to give up for him.

I will, however, express my disappointment that Walt didn't move Ramon and Cordero. No reason not to. We have good in-house replacements for both and their value will never be higher. Plus, moving them would not be seen by the fanbase as any type of concession. Just good, solid baseball moves.

I'm not wringing my hands about not making a bad deal; but I would love to know what the F/O and ownership feel we are now.....were we in buy or sell mode?

ditto

brm7675
08-01-2011, 12:03 PM
Name for me please the top prospects that you consider to have a 50/50 shot of even making it to the major leagues?

I consider Yonder a prospect and I think Devin will make the majors as will Billy Hamilton. there is a relief pitcher in teh Reds organization that I keep hearing as a future closer and I also still consider both cozart and Frazier as top prospects in our organization.

TheBigLebowski
08-01-2011, 12:04 PM
I consider Yonder a prospect and I think Devin will make the majors as will Billy Hamilton. there is a relief pitcher in teh Reds organization that I keep hearing as a future closer and I also still consider both cozart and Frazier as top prospects in our organization.

Boxberger

brm7675
08-01-2011, 12:05 PM
50/50 of even making it may be a little harsh, but in general I think prospects are WAY over valued. People want to put a price tag on them that is more indicative of what they MIGHT become if he lives up to all projections, rather than a more realistic projection of what he's likely to become.

No GM wants to be the guy who gives away the "next superstar".

Can anyone here remember the last prospect traded by any team that went on to be a "superstar"?

krm1580
08-01-2011, 12:09 PM
Let's take an honest look at the "big names" that were out there this year.

Ubaldo Jimenez. Damaged goods. Rocks would not let potential buyers evaluate him physically. High price tag. One great year with little else. 4.47 era at present. No thanks, despite the favorable contract.

James Shields. Rays put him on the block but apparently snatched him back just as quickly. Having a career year that is not representative of his entire body of work. Good 2/3 starter but not a game changer and not worth the price he would command.

Vargas/Fister. Neither an upgrade. At all.

Bell/Adams. Both would be nice additions but not worth the price. I don't think our bullpen is as good as most people believe, but it's not an area of weakness and the Padres were commanding top prospects for both.

BJ Upton. Low BA, high K, athletic guy, good defender with some pop. I think I've heard of this guy before....the name Drew Stubbs comes to mind.

Mike Bourn. Great WAR, fast as hell, great defender. Only under control through next year. Would have been a nice addition but they probably wanted Stubbs/Alonso+ in return. Not a huge miss.

Pence. Probably the best all-around non-pitcher available and commanded an unreasonably high price due to this. Again, would have been a nice add, but I'd hate to see what we'd have had to give up for him.

I will, however, express my disappointment that Walt didn't move Ramon and Cordero. No reason not to. We have good in-house replacements for both and their value will never be higher. Plus, moving them would not be seen by the fanbase as any type of concession. Just good, solid baseball moves.

I'm not wringing my hands about not making a bad deal; but I would love to know what the F/O and ownership feel we are now.....were we in buy or sell mode?

Well done. I probably could not have summed it up any better. A couple of things I would add.

1.) Houston probably would have commanded an intradivision premium above what they got for Pence and Bourn so the price was probably pretty huge. Frankly I am not interested in helping Houston get better.

2.) I would also agree with the only disappointment in not selling on Hernandez and Cordero. I would add though that the waiver trade deadline is still a month out and its possible both could still get dealt. I would think we will have a much better idea of the Reds playoff chances then as well.

TheBigLebowski
08-01-2011, 12:23 PM
Well done. I probably could not have summed it up any better. A couple of things I would add.

1.) Houston probably would have commanded an intradivision premium above what they got for Pence and Bourn so the price was probably pretty huge. Frankly I am not interested in helping Houston get better.

2.) I would also agree with the only disappointment in not selling on Hernandez and Cordero. I would add though that the waiver trade deadline is still a month out and its possible both could still get dealt. I would think we will have a much better idea of the Reds playoff chances then as well.

Yeah, I didn't even consider the intra-divisional price hike. Good add.

Cordero would likely pass waivers, but Razor's contract is too attractive for him to make it through. We've got him the rest of the year.

mikdavrut
08-01-2011, 12:38 PM
Tonight on A&E....a hoarder like no other...a man who refuses to part with things or do anything with them...a man who could have shed some unusable things for better things and all we heard was...NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Walt Jockerty on tonight's episode of Hoarders...You would have found something to complain about if he had made a trade.

powersackers
08-01-2011, 01:02 PM
Fister/Pauley/Brett Myers/Ubaldo/a box of baseballs would all have been an upgrade over Bronson Arroyo.

Why is that so easily forgotten?

TheBigLebowski
08-01-2011, 02:06 PM
Fister/Pauley/Brett Myers/Ubaldo/a box of baseballs would all have been an upgrade over Bronson Arroyo.

Why is that so easily forgotten?

We have in-house options who would be upgrades. Why pay for such a thing when there is no need?

Vottomatic
08-01-2011, 03:38 PM
Let's take an honest look at the "big names" that were out there this year.

Ubaldo Jimenez. Damaged goods. Rocks would not let potential buyers evaluate him physically. High price tag. One great year with little else. 4.47 era at present. No thanks, despite the favorable contract.

James Shields. Rays put him on the block but apparently snatched him back just as quickly. Having a career year that is not representative of his entire body of work. Good 2/3 starter but not a game changer and not worth the price he would command.

Vargas/Fister. Neither an upgrade. At all.

Bell/Adams. Both would be nice additions but not worth the price. I don't think our bullpen is as good as most people believe, but it's not an area of weakness and the Padres were commanding top prospects for both.

BJ Upton. Low BA, high K, athletic guy, good defender with some pop. I think I've heard of this guy before....the name Drew Stubbs comes to mind.

Mike Bourn. Great WAR, fast as hell, great defender. Only under control through next year. Would have been a nice addition but they probably wanted Stubbs/Alonso+ in return. Not a huge miss.

Pence. Probably the best all-around non-pitcher available and commanded an unreasonably high price due to this. Again, would have been a nice add, but I'd hate to see what we'd have had to give up for him.

I will, however, express my disappointment that Walt didn't move Ramon and Cordero. No reason not to. We have good in-house replacements for both and their value will never be higher. Plus, moving them would not be seen by the fanbase as any type of concession. Just good, solid baseball moves.

I'm not wringing my hands about not making a bad deal; but I would love to know what the F/O and ownership feel we are now.....were we in buy or sell mode?

I couldn't have said it better.

And for those still lamenting not getting Pence. I read many posters claiming him to be the 4-hole hitter we needed. What a joke. The guy has hit 3 HR's in all of June and July, total. He ain't that guy.

It amazes me some people want to OVERPAY for these guys. None of them were going to get the Reds past the Phillies, Red Sox or Yankees.

Some people on here just want to win the division, because they say it's WEAK AND THERE FOR THE TAKING. Big frickin' deal. Who wants to win the worst division? Alot of good that did for us last year.

I say go to war with what we got and if we don't win it, it wasn't meant to be. Tweak the roster in the offseason and get what we need. I think trade partners will be more reasonable in the offseason than at the desperate trading deadline. Plus, you have free agents too.

I'm with you on Ramon though. I'm surprised he wasn't dealt. My only complaint.

Vottomatic
08-01-2011, 03:39 PM
Tonight on A&E....a hoarder like no other...a man who refuses to part with things or do anything with them...a man who could have shed some unusable things for better things and all we heard was...NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Walt Jockerty on tonight's episode of Hoarders...

You can bury the horse now. The horse has been officially beaten to death.

Sean_CaseyRules
08-01-2011, 03:52 PM
Some food for thought.

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/


A reader tipped me a while back that he has a friend in baseball who told him the Reds were talking to the Blue Jays about a trade Jose Bautista-for-Joey Votto trade. The Reds would have had to kick in a prospect as well.

I would've been on board with this.

sammonator
08-01-2011, 04:00 PM
I would have kicked in the prospect for sure and made that deal.

Phillips
Cozart
Bautista
Bruce
Mesoraco
Alonso
Rolen
Stubbs


Wow!!!!

brm7675
08-01-2011, 04:25 PM
Why does the 4th slot hitter have to be a homerun hitter?

Vottomatic
08-01-2011, 04:31 PM
Why does the 4th slot hitter have to be a homerun hitter?

True. Sparky used to bat Pete Rose and occasionally Davey Concepcion fourth alot.

(Sarcasm abounds) :lol: :laugh:

SidneySlicker
08-01-2011, 05:09 PM
Passan and Stark have no interest or stake in the Reds long term success.

Kingspoint
08-01-2011, 07:05 PM
Passan vs. Jocketty:

Which of these faces do you trust more in evaluating potential trades?

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSYp2Lc54VF78P89t2GGyEApONBOXmJ3 0XcsmwKcthv_cBp58mZpA

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcShaMVxxyqjAZNHpbvOocXDruUGDnBab yhs0OmfzzqNS4FjvbfF

I'm going with the guy that is old enough to drink.

Nice post.

Kingspoint
08-01-2011, 07:06 PM
Walt gets a pass from me. I trust him, his knowledge, and his fatherly attitude about the organization. I'm sure he did what was best for it.

LeDoux
08-01-2011, 07:06 PM
Age of walt and the writer mean nothing. Walt is not the GM i thought we were getting. Our prospects(in AAA) can not both be to good to deal, and not good enough to help the major league team. It is one or the other. I think the Reds think to highly of what they have. We have to give up real talent to get real talent.

It is time to play Todd and Alonso and see what we have.

I would like to see what the young guys can do as well. But, I also think Passan has little or no insight into the trade options of the Reds. His articles are the People magazine of baseball. There is little substance in his analysis.