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nemesis
08-01-2011, 12:44 AM
HOT Pitchers July

Chapman - 15.1 IP 2 H 4 BB 25 K's 0.39 WHIP 1.17 ERA 1 SV .038 BAA

LeCure - 11.1 IP 7 H 3 BB 11 K's 0.88 WHIP 0.79 ERA .171 BAA

Cueto - 41.1 IP 31 H 13 BB 19 K's 1.09 WHIP 1.52 ERA .209 BAA

Arredondo - 9 IP 5 H 2 BB 7 K's 0.78 WHIP 3.00 ERA .171 BAA


NOT Pitchers July

Arroyo - 30.1 IP 39 H 8 BB 13 K's 1.55 WHIP 7.42 ERA .315 BAA 0 Wins

Bailey - 30.1 IP 36 H 11 BB 17 K's 1.55 WHIP 5.64 ERA .303 BAA

Masset - 11.1 IP 15 H 3 BB 8 K's 1.59 WHIP 3.97 ERA .326 BAA

CoCo - 10.1 IP 12 H 5 BB 7 K's 1.65 WHIP 6.10 ERA .293 BAA 3 BS


__________________________________________________ _____________


HOT Batters July


Votto - .386/.550/.936 - 6 HR 18 RBI

Cairo - .377/.471/.848 - 2 HR 10 RBI

Lewis - .352/.426/.778 - 2 HR 7 RBI

Bruce - .363/.442/.805 - 3 HR 12 RBI - 15 BB 20 K

Stubbs - .361/.362/.723 - 2 HR 4 RBI

Renteria - .310/.429/.739 - 1 HR 8 RBI - 1 BB 12 K

Janish - .381/.389/.770 - 2 BB - 1 K


NOT Hitters July

Rolen - .229/.348/.577 - 1 HR 4 RBI

Hanigan - .333/.273/.610 - 0 HR 1 RBI

Heisey - .254/.406/.660 - 4 HR 9 RBI

Ron Madden
08-01-2011, 12:52 AM
HOT Pitchers July

Chapman - 15.1 IP 2 H 4 BB 25 K's 0.39 WHIP 1.17 ERA 1 SV .038 BAA

LeCure - 11.1 IP 7 H 3 BB 11 K's 0.88 WHIP 0.79 ERA .171 BAA

Cueto - 41.1 IP 31 H 13 BB 19 K's 1.09 WHIP 1.52 ERA .209 BAA

Arredondo - 9 IP 5 H 2 BB 7 K's 0.78 WHIP 3.00 ERA .171 BAA


NOT Pitchers July

Arroyo - 30.1 IP 39 H 8 BB 13 K's 1.55 WHIP 7.42 ERA .315 BAA 0 Wins

Bailey - 30.1 IP 36 H 11 BB 17 K's 1.55 WHIP 5.64 ERA .303 BAA

Masset - 11.1 IP 15 H 3 BB 8 K's 1.59 WHIP 3.97 ERA .326 BAA

CoCo - 10.1 IP 12 H 5 BB 7 K's 1.65 WHIP 6.10 ERA .293 BAA 3 BS


__________________________________________________ _____________


HOT Batters July


Votto - .386/.550/.936 - 6 HR 18 RBI

Cairo - .377/.471/.848 - 2 HR 10 RBI

Lewis - .352/.426/.778 - 2 HR 7 RBI

Bruce - .363/.442/.805 - 3 HR 12 RBI - 15 BB 20 K

Stubbs - .361/.362/.723 - 2 HR 4 RBI

Renteria - .310/.429/.739 - 1 HR 8 RBI - 1 BB 12 K

Janish - .381/.389/.770 - 2 BB - 1 K


NOT Hitters July

Rolen - .229/.348/.577 - 1 HR 4 RBI

Hanigan - .333/.273/.610 - 0 HR 1 RBI

Heisey - .254/.406/.660 - 4 HR 9 RBI

But all I've heard is that Jay Bruce has sucked since the month of May.

nemesis
08-01-2011, 01:16 AM
But all I've heard is that Jay Bruce has sucked since the month of May.

Yep and Dunn was a Bum who only posted a .900 OPS in his years in Cincy.

3rd All Time behind:

1) Votto .955

2) Robinson .943

3) Dunn .900

4) Morgan .885

5) ED .877

4 out of the Top 5 was or will be run out of town.

Cincy fans throughout the decades are never happy with what they have. It's always the next guy...

BTW Bruce .808 - Lifetime

Better than Griffey, Rose, Parker, Bell, A.Boone, Sabo, O'Neil and a tick behind, Vinson, May, Larkin, Bench, Perez and Post as Reds.

AT 24. That's some pretty heavy hitters in Reds history.

kaldaniels
08-01-2011, 01:20 AM
Stunned at Bruce's numbers for the month of July. Based on comments around here I thought he was slumping.

kaldaniels
08-01-2011, 01:22 AM
Those numbers are not correct. Bruce hit .250 in July. Hanigan hit .227.

I'd start the whole thing over.

kaldaniels
08-01-2011, 01:23 AM
I think the numbers listed may be OBP/SLG/OPS.

BA is the first part of a slash line, right?

nemesis
08-01-2011, 01:29 AM
I think the numbers listed may be OBP/SLG/OPS.

BA is the first part of a slash line, right?

No. I go with the SABER slash of OBP+SLG% = OPS

BA plays into the OBP.

kaldaniels
08-01-2011, 09:08 AM
No. I go with the SABER slash of OBP+SLG% = OPS

BA plays into the OBP.

Fair enough. I'm used to the BA/OBP/SLG that fangraphs uses. The SABER slash seems redundant to me as you can just add the first 2 numbers together to get the 3rd. The more info you get the better if you are just using 3 numbers in my opinion.

Is there consensus on what slash line to use?

signalhome
08-01-2011, 01:01 PM
Fair enough. I'm used to the BA/OBP/SLG that fangraphs uses. The SABER slash seems redundant to me as you can just add the first 2 numbers together to get the 3rd. The more info you get the better if you are just using 3 numbers in my opinion.

Is there consensus on what slash line to use?

I've seen slash lines presented this way a few times, though yeah, more often than not it's BA/OBP/SLG. I'd say just go with BA/OBP/SLG/OPS, so you've covered all the bases.

Chapman's numbers in July are absolutely sick: 14.67 K/9, 2.35 BB/9, 6.25 K/BB, 47.6% GB%, 1.37 FIP, 1.05 xFIP. I know I'm just beating a dead horse by saying this, but the Reds have to get him in the rotation next year.

signalhome
08-01-2011, 01:04 PM
Bruce - .363/.442/.805 - 3 HR 12 RBI - 15 BB 20 K

That's a 14.7% BB%, 19.6% K%, and 0.75 BB/K for July. More of that, please.

OnBaseMachine
08-01-2011, 01:31 PM
Chapman: Six baserunners in 15.1 innings with 25 K's. Sick. Just sick. He's been fun to watch since returning from the minors. Too bad he's not pitching 6+ innings every fifth day.

Arredondo has really come around too as expected. I love his stuff...he'll be a big part of next seasons bullpen.

Superdude
08-01-2011, 01:46 PM
Fair enough. I'm used to the BA/OBP/SLG that fangraphs uses. The SABER slash seems redundant to me as you can just add the first 2 numbers together to get the 3rd. The more info you get the better if you are just using 3 numbers in my opinion.

Is there consensus on what slash line to use?

I can't stand OBP/SLG/OPS. It throws me off and just isn't as useful. I was wondering how we even lost a game in July when I first saw this thread. :D

Rojo
08-01-2011, 01:47 PM
Too bad he's not pitching 6+ innings every fifth day.

Maybe. But the flipside is getting to use him 3 times a week. This team has a woeful one-run record, worst in the league.

Tom Servo
08-01-2011, 01:49 PM
I wish Dusty would use LeCure a bit more.

TRF
08-01-2011, 02:57 PM
someone want to tell me when a .723 OPS suddenly made a player hot? That slash line for Stubbs might be better than Heisey's, but without context, like the fact that Stubbs had roughly 30 more AB's, One might think Stubbs was more productive than Heisey in July.

Which is simply not true.

signalhome
08-01-2011, 03:29 PM
someone want to tell me when a .723 OPS suddenly made a player hot? That slash line for Stubbs might be better than Heisey's, but without context, like the fact that Stubbs had roughly 30 more AB's, One might think Stubbs was more productive than Heisey in July.

Which is simply not true.

July numbers:

Stubbs: .361 OBP, .323 wOBA, 100 wRC+
Heisey: .254 OBP, .287 wOBA, 75 wRC+

Heisey has been good this year, but I think it's absolutely true that Stubbs was the much more productive player in July. The fact that he received 37 more PAs than Heisey in July doesn't really play into rate stats, and any rate stat you choose to look at (apart from SLG) says Heisey was absolutely atrocious in July.

RedsManRick
08-01-2011, 03:31 PM
Fair enough. I'm used to the BA/OBP/SLG that fangraphs uses. The SABER slash seems redundant to me as you can just add the first 2 numbers together to get the 3rd. The more info you get the better if you are just using 3 numbers in my opinion.

Is there consensus on what slash line to use?

While I'm certainly Saber, I agree that the OBP/SLG/OPS version is silly. From the persective of understanding a player's production, the traditional AVG/OBP/SLG is much more useful. And if we're worried that people can't add, we can always tack OPS on. Personally though, if we want to share overall production, I'd rather see wOBA which not only accounts for the different weights of OBP and SLG but incorporates base-running.

Here's an alternate version:

Name PA AVG/OBP/SLG wOBA BABIP HR R RBI SB
Joey Votto 114 .320/.386/.550 .401 .325 6 14 18 0
Miguel Cairo 61 .275/.377/.471 .367 .267 2 9 10 0
Zack Cozart 38 .324/.324/.486 .354 .345 2 6 3 0
Jay Bruce 102 .256/.363/.442 .339 .297 3 10 12 1
Ramon Hernandez 58 .288/.345/.442 .339 .283 2 6 8 0
Fred Lewis 55 .255/.352/.426 .336 .303 2 6 7 1
Edgar Renteria 61 .286/.310/.429 .324 .366 1 12 8 0
Drew Stubbs 109 .266/.361/.362 .323 .354 2 17 4 3
DatDudeBP 113 .260/.286/.462 .302 .284 4 11 17 3
Ryan Hanigan 51 .227/.333/.273 .277 .263 0 1 1 0
Scott Rolen 48 .196/.229/.348 .254 .211 1 2 4 0
Chris Heisey 72 .188/.254/.406 .287 .186 4 10 9 1
Jonny Gomes 31 .111/.226/.111 .176 .188 0 0 0 0

TRF
08-01-2011, 03:41 PM
July numbers:

Stubbs: .361 OBP, .323 wOBA, 100 wRC+
Heisey: .254 OBP, .287 wOBA, 75 wRC+

Heisey has been good this year, but I think it's absolutely true that Stubbs was the much more productive player in July. The fact that he received 37 more PAs than Heisey in July doesn't really play into rate stats, and any rate stat you choose to look at (apart from SLG) says Heisey was absolutely atrocious in July.

Even up the PA's and Heisey likely has 6HR for the month, 14 RBI, maybe 5-6 doubles. Stubbs was better at getting on base, Heisey better at driving runners in. Heisey's playing time has been sporadic, Stubbs more secure.

Heisey struggled to get on base, yet Stubbs did not take advantage of being on base to help the Reds: 3 SB, 3 CS.i don't know if CS factors into wOBA, but a 50% rate is atrocious in and of itself.

_Sir_Charles_
08-01-2011, 03:47 PM
FWIW...Votto was named NL player of the week this past week. :O) I guess that puts him in the "hot" category.

RedsManRick
08-01-2011, 03:51 PM
someone want to tell me when a .723 OPS suddenly made a player hot? That slash line for Stubbs might be better than Heisey's, but without context, like the fact that Stubbs had roughly 30 more AB's, One might think Stubbs was more productive than Heisey in July.

Which is simply not true.

Except that if you measure the things that they player does which are under his control, Stubbs actually was a better hitter during the month than Heisey. Heisey may have had an ok month for converting RBI opportunities, but he sure as heck didn't create very many for the guys behind him.

TRF
08-01-2011, 04:00 PM
Except that if you measure the things that they player does which are under his control, Stubbs actually was a better hitter during the month than Heisey. Heisey may have had an ok month for converting RBI opportunities, but he sure as heck didn't create very many for the guys behind him.

I'm not saying he did, nor that he was very good. I dispute the claim that Stubbs was "Hot" in july. IMO he kinda sucked. no power, negated some of his OBP with the 3 CS, and his .356 BABIP contrasts sharply with Heisey's .186 BABIP... In other words, Stubbs had some luck that Heisey didn't. Heisey was 6 hits from a .281 BA

6 hits. He didn't get on alot, but Stubbs was hitting a pretty empty .266.

truth is, neither guy was good, but if Heisey had the 30 extra AB's, I think his overall numbers would have been better... and that they still probably would have been poor.

Essentially, a .723 OPS is not "Hot".

nemesis
08-01-2011, 05:23 PM
I'm not saying he did, nor that he was very good. I dispute the claim that Stubbs was "Hot" in july. IMO he kinda sucked. no power, negated some of his OBP with the 3 CS, and his .356 BABIP contrasts sharply with Heisey's .186 BABIP... In other words, Stubbs had some luck that Heisey didn't. Heisey was 6 hits from a .281 BA

6 hits. He didn't get on alot, but Stubbs was hitting a pretty empty .266.

truth is, neither guy was good, but if Heisey had the 30 extra AB's, I think his overall numbers would have been better... and that they still probably would have been poor.

Essentially, a .723 OPS is not "Hot".

Stubbs is a leadoff guy. He got on base at a .361 clip. That is pretty freaking good for the guy. I'll take a lower SLG % from him if the Reds could get that month in and out.

RedsManRick
08-01-2011, 05:51 PM
I'm not saying he did, nor that he was very good. I dispute the claim that Stubbs was "Hot" in july. IMO he kinda sucked. no power, negated some of his OBP with the 3 CS, and his .356 BABIP contrasts sharply with Heisey's .186 BABIP... In other words, Stubbs had some luck that Heisey didn't. Heisey was 6 hits from a .281 BA

6 hits. He didn't get on alot, but Stubbs was hitting a pretty empty .266.

truth is, neither guy was good, but if Heisey had the 30 extra AB's, I think his overall numbers would have been better... and that they still probably would have been poor.

Essentially, a .723 OPS is not "Hot".

I wasn't taking issue with the claim that Stubbs was not hot, he clearly wasn't. But if we're talking what they actually produced at the plate in July, Stubbs was measurably more productive, even on a per/PA basis.

I can only assume you're looking partly at the counting stats. Counting stats like R and RBI judge players in no small part based on the production of the guys around them in the lineup. Even subtracting out HR, Stubbs scored 43% of the time he was on base; Heisey 50%. Who deserves credit for that?

And looking at BABIP on a monthly basis is somewhat explanatory in terms of understanding what happened, but it would be a bad idea try and neutralize it as you do. Over the course of a month, it's entirely reasonable for a guy to deserve a crazy low or crazy high BABIP, so it doesn't tell us that a guy was necessarily lucky or unlucky. Case in point is Heisey's 6.8 LD% and 23.8 IFFB% It's not that he was unlucky, it's that he rarely made good contact. Over larger samples, those things tend to normalize, but a guy can absolutely earn a .186 BABIP over 70 PA, as Heisey did.