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View Full Version : Now vs. the future



brm7675
08-01-2011, 06:22 PM
Last night on the ESPN sunday night game they interviewed the Cards GM and he basically said that the moves he made trade wise was for this season and he was not considering or looking how it impacted the team in the future. I think that is how GM's of pro sports teams have to approach things in today's sports world. If you are a team that has the ability or talent to win now you can't be worried what is in the future. I think Walt is working off of how teams were run in the past and while that might be okay, overall I think we are seeing a new trend in sport's managment that maybe Walt/Dusty and Bob need to get up to speed on.

R_Webb18
08-01-2011, 06:44 PM
disagree. i think the reds just have a sense on how good yonder alonzo will be and there just not going to give him away.

LeDoux
08-01-2011, 06:52 PM
I don't think things have changed all that much. Every business decides either to grab the quick buck or build a growing, sustainable enterprise. Walt chose the second path with the Reds. I applaud him for it.

Redlegs20
08-01-2011, 07:08 PM
The Reds are a small market and have done a wonderful job in the farm system. The young talent will continue to improve and we cannot "rent" players and give away the top young talent in hopes of winning it all now. I think the young talent can bring many years of quality teams to Cincinnati. If Arroyo had been healthy and Volquez would have shown up this year, we could be in first place with the good young talent we have. We cannot give away the quality young ones for one season. Walt did well.

Vottomatic
08-01-2011, 07:26 PM
Last night on the ESPN sunday night game they interviewed the Cards GM and he basically said that the moves he made trade wise was for this season and he was not considering or looking how it impacted the team in the future. I think that is how GM's of pro sports teams have to approach things in today's sports world. If you are a team that has the ability or talent to win now you can't be worried what is in the future. I think Walt is working off of how teams were run in the past and while that might be okay, overall I think we are seeing a new trend in sport's managment that maybe Walt/Dusty and Bob need to get up to speed on.

.....and if you were a GM, you'd be out of baseball and commentating on MSNBC about sports, in some 1 minute segment, probably about now.

You have to consider the long term viability of your business. I am a business owner, and I would never operate for the quick buck without considering the future. Just poor management.

brm7675
08-01-2011, 07:30 PM
.....and if you were a GM, you'd be out of baseball and commentating on MSNBC about sports, in some 1 minute segment, probably about now.

You have to consider the long term viability of your business. I am a business owner, and I would never operate for the quick buck without considering the future. Just poor management.

There is a huge difference between a normal business and the business of sports. Fans want, no demand winning now, they don't care about tomorrow. I am willing to bet that if you asked 100 Reds fans after a game, if they would give up the next 5 seasons of being good if it ment we won the WS this year, a very strong majority would say yes. The sports would is unlike other normal business.

Vottomatic
08-01-2011, 08:31 PM
There is a huge difference between a normal business and the business of sports. Fans want, no demand winning now, they don't care about tomorrow. I am willing to bet that if you asked 100 Reds fans after a game, if they would give up the next 5 seasons of being good if it ment we won the WS this year, a very strong majority would say yes. The sports would is unlike other normal business.

.......a huge hole in your argument is that there wasn't one player out there AVAILABLE that would help the Reds win the WS this year.

Therefore, they didn't mortgage the future.

And good for them.

Stray
08-01-2011, 08:38 PM
Pujols could easily walk after this season, so of course the Cardinals want to go all in this year.

brm7675
08-01-2011, 08:39 PM
.......a huge hole in your argument is that there wasn't one player out there AVAILABLE that would help the Reds win the WS this year.

Therefore, they didn't mortgage the future.

And good for them.

No there wasn't, but there was a player (Pence) who would have significantly up graded this team and cost us what? Maybe a future catcher? What other player that could have been included would have hurt us over the next 3-4 years?

Krawhitham
08-01-2011, 08:46 PM
disagree. i think the reds just have a sense on how good yonder alonzo will be and there just not going to give him away.

We have been playing for the future for 21 years, how is that working out?

markymark69
08-01-2011, 09:07 PM
We have been playing for the future for 21 years, how is that working out?

You're forgetting one thing. Previous regimes jumped on and off the plan - never stayed with anything consistent. I'm a win now guy myself - but at least the Reds have developed a game plan to try to have some sustained success - and seem to be sticking to it.

The Reds made the playoffs last year, if they don't this year but do in the next three years with some steady improvement how can anyone argue with that? I know that is supposition, but that's how the Big Red Machine was built. I'm not saying that this group will be another Big Red Machine - but they certainly could be a reason facsimile.

Razzle
08-01-2011, 10:17 PM
Pujols could easily walk after this season, so of course the Cardinals want to go all in this year.

This. The Cardinals have so much uncertainty in the coming offseason that they don't know if they will have to face a huge rebuild after the season. It's especially not smart to trade Rasmus for rentals under this scenario, but that's what Mozeliak is doing. Berkman, Pujols, Yadi, Carpenter, Jackson, etc are all potentially free agents at the end of the year, thus the Cards are thrust into this mode, but the window for the Reds with this group isn't closing immediately.

webbbj
08-01-2011, 10:23 PM
the reds are going to try to win now w/ keeping the future in tact. their not just gonna trade a $1 for a quarter like some people here seem willing to do. not to mention if ur goal is to win a WS there probably isnt a move that would make that happen this year. They stay patient and dont panic their time will come to make that big splash.

Vottomatic
08-01-2011, 11:52 PM
No there wasn't, but there was a player (Pence) who would have significantly up graded this team and cost us what? Maybe a future catcher? What other player that could have been included would have hurt us over the next 3-4 years?

Pence.....yeah, Mr. 3 HR's combined for June and July. Oh boy.

I don't know many people who wanted Pence for what Houston wanted in return.

Vottomatic
08-01-2011, 11:55 PM
This. The Cardinals have so much uncertainty in the coming offseason that they don't know if they will have to face a huge rebuild after the season. It's especially not smart to trade Rasmus for rentals under this scenario, but that's what Mozeliak is doing. Berkman, Pujols, Yadi, Carpenter, Jackson, etc are all potentially free agents at the end of the year, thus the Cards are thrust into this mode, but the window for the Reds with this group isn't closing immediately.

The scary thing is, I kind of felt like the Cards were the ones to beat after some of these trades they made. If they don't make the playoffs, those trades will really hurt. Especially trading Rasmus.

If Pujols walks, it could be interesting.

What is the status of Wainwright? I read on mlbtraderumors, under their free agent section, that Wainwright is due $12M or does he have to vest (which he won't because of injury)? Or does he become a free agent recovering from TJ surgery? They made it out like he didn't vest the $12M option, so he becomes a free agent. But maybe I misunderstood.

lidspinner
08-02-2011, 12:38 AM
Fir all we know yonder won't do squat. Heisey strikes out like his last name is Stubbs and Fred Lewis is Fred freaking Lewis.

We had a chance to get Bourn, who wouldve solved 2 problems. He'd give us a gold glove in LF or CF...either way he helps our OF them he also fills the need for a true leadoff hitter. Bourn gives this team a true identity and makes us a first inning threat each and every game. Could you imagine teams trying to defend against Stubbs and Bourn on the basepaths? lol.

Braves gave up chump change for a guy who is proven he can be a top flight player in the bigs. Prospects are never sure. A few years ago, yonder was the next votto....now we are not sure if he is the next Sean Casey or the next Kal Daniels. Yonder has not proven a darn thing. Yet we could've moved him last year Possibly or this year possibly.

Point is this, you can keep playing for the future all you want but at some point the fans will figure it out and when they do, GABP will look like a Marlins game. Empty. Our fans have came out and set records for attendance turnaround this year and yet Walt wants to sit on his thumbs and expect us to wait till next year cause our minor league players are to good to trade yet not good enough to contribute to the Reds. Fans will stop showing up and I give it till next year before fans start to revolt.

You either play the youngsters or trade them for proven talent. One way or the other, the window is closing and closing fast.

Razzle
08-02-2011, 01:52 AM
The scary thing is, I kind of felt like the Cards were the ones to beat after some of these trades they made. If they don't make the playoffs, those trades will really hurt. Especially trading Rasmus.

If Pujols walks, it could be interesting.

What is the status of Wainwright? I read on mlbtraderumors, under their free agent section, that Wainwright is due $12M or does he have to vest (which he won't because of injury)? Or does he become a free agent recovering from TJ surgery? They made it out like he didn't vest the $12M option, so he becomes a free agent. But maybe I misunderstood.

I was alright with the team trading Rasmus (as I'm alright with them trading anyone for the right price), but the haul they got marginally upgraded the team this year while severely weakening the team in the following three. I think the Brewers and Cards are in a similar boat with regards to next year although they have more players under control, but losing Fielder, which is almost assuredly going to happen, will likely kill them. I don't like the outlooks of the Cards either, but they do have a bit of a higher payroll to patch things than do the Brewers.

As far as Wainwright goes, I've heard the same rumors that you point out here, however everything I've researched on it has pretty much explained that the team has an option for Wainwright if he finishes the season on the DL. Otherwise the next two years vest. Earlier in the year I remember people wondering if Wainwright was worth 2 years and $21 million seven months removed from TJ surgery. It's absolutely silly imo, especially with the recovery rate of Tommy John these days. In the second year alone he could be worth near that amount if he recovers well. There is no way you risk losing a player of Wainwright's caliber because you don't want to risk $21 mil over two years. I hope this helps and am not 100% sure on this, but I'm pretty sure this is the case regarding his contract situation.

BluegrassRedleg
08-02-2011, 03:19 AM
I understand how difficult the now vs. future question is for an organization, but the most disappointing thing about this scenario is how the Reds took a step back this season... and a pretty significant one. Not only are they not going to win the division, but they're under .500, which is a reflection on Walt not addressing the future in this previous offseason.

FireDusty
08-02-2011, 09:17 AM
There is a huge difference between a normal business and the business of sports. Fans want, no demand winning now, they don't care about tomorrow. I am willing to bet that if you asked 100 Reds fans after a game, if they would give up the next 5 seasons of being good if it ment we won the WS this year, a very strong majority would say yes. The sports would is unlike other normal business.

But there weren't enough moves this year to make us a WS team.

If we were a player away and could pull the trigger on that guy, I would be all for it.

The issue is that you wanted the Reds to make a move, any move, just so you could read a headline that said "Reds Trade For Rayn Ludwick". You would have got thrill for a few seconds and then the realization that we weren't any better would have hit you.

The truth is that the requirements to get Jimenez were ridiculous. Other teams can sense how close the Reds are to bringing the next wave up, and they want to weaken the Reds as much as possible.

That's why teams want more from the Reds. They see how good we are getting ready to be and they are trying to take advantage of any chance they can get to weaken us.

Krawhitham
08-02-2011, 01:26 PM
You're forgetting one thing. Previous regimes jumped on and off the plan - never stayed with anything consistent.

and assuming this regime will do differently is crazy



The Reds made the playoffs last year, if they don't this year but do in the next three years with some steady improvement how can anyone argue with that? I know that is supposition, but that's how the Big Red Machine was built. I'm not saying that this group will be another Big Red Machine - but they certainly could be a reason facsimile.

We made the playoffs in 1995 too

And the Big Red Machine was before Free Agency

brm7675
08-02-2011, 01:39 PM
Fir all we know yonder won't do squat. Heisey strikes out like his last name is Stubbs and Fred Lewis is Fred freaking Lewis.

We had a chance to get Bourn, who wouldve solved 2 problems. He'd give us a gold glove in LF or CF...either way he helps our OF them he also fills the need for a true leadoff hitter. Bourn gives this team a true identity and makes us a first inning threat each and every game. Could you imagine teams trying to defend against Stubbs and Bourn on the basepaths? lol.

there are two HUGE problems with Bourn. First is his contract I believe only goes through next year, so you are basically getting him for one year because his AGENT is the second problem. His agent is Scott Boras and there would be zero chance the Reds could afford what Boras will get for him, sorry for those two reason alone you stay away from him.

brm7675
08-02-2011, 01:41 PM
But there weren't enough moves this year to make us a WS team.

If we were a player away and could pull the trigger on that guy, I would be all for it.

The issue is that you wanted the Reds to make a move, any move, just so you could read a headline that said "Reds Trade For Rayn Ludwick". You would have got thrill for a few seconds and then the realization that we weren't any better would have hit you.

The truth is that the requirements to get Jimenez were ridiculous. Other teams can sense how close the Reds are to bringing the next wave up, and they want to weaken the Reds as much as possible.

That's why teams want more from the Reds. They see how good we are getting ready to be and they are trying to take advantage of any chance they can get to weaken us.

Not true, I would have not considered anyone outside of Pence who ended up being traded. I believe his abilities would have helped this team not only this season but for then next 3-4 years. He brought us a player who would have strgenthed both our defense and offense.

berryluther
08-02-2011, 02:04 PM
First off......We should be in future mode. We lost to a bunch of minor leaguers last night.

This off season I offer Votto a long term contract. If he declines I inform him that he will be playing LF for the remainder of his current deal. I give the job to Yonder and find the best deal I can for Votto.

brm7675
08-02-2011, 02:34 PM
First off......We should be in future mode. We lost to a bunch of minor leaguers last night.

This off season I offer Votto a long term contract. If he declines I inform him that he will be playing LF for the remainder of his current deal. I give the job to Yonder and find the best deal I can for Votto.

Problem is you don't do that to an MVP.

markymark69
08-02-2011, 05:09 PM
and assuming this regime will do differently is crazy




We made the playoffs in 1995 too

And the Big Red Machine was before Free Agency


1. The fact that they have a plan and are sticking with it - is doing something differently.

2. The majority of 1995 team was not home grown, i.e. not built with farm team. The plan is to build for sustained success, don't know whether it will happen, but these young guys (Cozart, Alonso, Mesoraco) are getting ready to knock the MLB door down. Walt was not prepared to stray from this plan. Also, to this point - trading Hernandez, Arroyo, Rolen or Cordero wouldn't have really netted them an impact player.

Trading - which is what we're dealing with (the trade deadline) is not free agency. So even with FA being after the Big Red Machine - the point holds no water - we're talking about trading not free agency.

Vottomatic
08-02-2011, 05:45 PM
1. The fact that they have a plan and are sticking with it - is doing something differently.

2. The majority of 1995 team was not home grown, i.e. not built with farm team. The plan is to build for sustained success, don't know whether it will happen, but these young guys (Cozart, Alonso, Mesoraco) are getting ready to knock the MLB door down. Walt was not prepared to stray from this plan. Also, to this point - trading Hernandez, Arroyo, Rolen or Cordero wouldn't have really netted them an impact player.

Trading - which is what we're dealing with (the trade deadline) is not free agency. So even with FA being after the Big Red Machine - the point holds no water - we're talking about trading not free agency.

Geez. How soon people forget. From about 1994 to 2007, this was a team a retreads and cheap offseason pickups.

Have people forgotten some of the pathetic opening day starters we've had in that time frame? Or all of the revolving door outfielders we had from Alex Ochoa, Kevin Mitchell, Greg Vaughn, Ron Gant, Bichette, Sierra......to other positions.

This organization has direction. Dare I say it, but they may have put together the best farm system in all of the major leagues, so no wonder other teams want to fleece them in trade.

This team made the playoffs ahead of schedule. They regressed some this season. Hopefully this offseason, management seeks to fix the problems and strengthen this team. And I believe offseason trades are usually more equitable.