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dougdirt
08-12-2011, 01:43 PM
Juicer and sign-stealer (http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/6837424/baseball-toronto-blue-jays-suspicion-again-stealing-signs-rogers-centre). Any wagers on bat-corking?

So only Bautista is able to take advantage of it? Why isn't the rest of the Blue Jays just crushing the ball? Why is the Blue Jays home/road splits nearly identical to the Reds? Are the Reds also stealing signs at home from the party deck?

RedFanAlways1966
08-12-2011, 02:28 PM
No, I'm not. Not at all. I'm trying to figure out how people can blindly accuse him of using steroids, when there is steroid testing in baseball. And comparing him to the stories of ten years ago when everyone had a "new workout regiment" and what now, is not a valid comparison considering there was no steroid testing in baseball back then.

So, again, I ask those that are accusing Joey Bats of roids.... how is he beating these tests? IMO, him somehow beating the steroids tests is a lot harder to believe than the belief that he is using steroids.

see post #247...

Homer Bailey
08-12-2011, 02:47 PM
see post #247...

That's legit. But how do you explain them suspending Manny Ramirez, not once but twice?

reds44
08-12-2011, 03:10 PM
No, I'm not. Not at all. I'm trying to figure out how people can blindly accuse him of using steroids, when there is steroid testing in baseball. And comparing him to the stories of ten years ago when everyone had a "new workout regiment" and what now, is not a valid comparison considering there was no steroid testing in baseball back then.

So, again, I ask those that are accusing Joey Bats of roids.... how is he beating these tests? IMO, him somehow beating the steroids tests is a lot harder to believe than the belief that he is using steroids.
Come on Homer, you're smart enough to know that only idiots get caught by MLB's current drug testing policy.

reds44
08-12-2011, 03:12 PM
That's legit. But how do you explain them suspending Manny Ramirez, not once but twice?
Because Manny Ramirez is that dumb. Steroids is old news, MLB doesn't even test for HGH.

Homer Bailey
08-12-2011, 03:14 PM
Because Manny Ramirez is that dumb. Steroids is old news, MLB doesn't even test for HGH.

So is Bautista the only one using HGH? Still doesn't check out....

reds44
08-12-2011, 03:15 PM
So is Bautista the only one using HGH? Still doesn't check out....
Oh I have no doubt he's not the only one. He's just the most obvious.

dougdirt
08-12-2011, 03:42 PM
Oh I have no doubt he's not the only one. He's just the most obvious.
Why is his stuff that much better than other guys? Again, if he were getting stuff that were truly as good as some people seem to want to make it out to be, do you really think whoever is producing it isn't out there trying to sell it to other guys for big bucks? That is why they make it. They don't make it because they want to see guys perform better, they make it to sell it and make money. If you had a product that turned Bautista from what he was to what he is, you can bet your bottom that you would be out pimping that stuff to anyone and everyone and you can also bet that a lot of people would be ponying up the money for it seeing what he has done and the fact that he hasn't tested positive for anything. But here we are and Bautista is the only guy alive playing out of his mind. So why is he the only one getting this stuff? Probably because he isn't getting any stuff.

Blitz Dorsey
08-12-2011, 05:21 PM
Yeah, players just all of a sudden have a precipitous breakout at the age of 29. Happens all the time. No way PEDs were involved.

[Sarcasm off.]

Votto is also 3 years younger than Bautista. The idea that the Reds would have to throw in an additional prospect is absurd -- especially perhaps our best pitching prospect. If Toronto wants their hometown boy, they can pay a hefty price for him ... or they can wait until 2014.

dougdirt
08-12-2011, 05:47 PM
Yeah, players just all of a sudden have a precipitous breakout at the age of 29. Happens all the time. No way PEDs were involved.

[Sarcasm off.]

Votto is also 3 years younger than Bautista. The idea that the Reds would have to throw in an additional prospect is absurd -- especially perhaps our best pitching prospect. If Toronto wants their hometown boy, they can pay a hefty price for him ... or they can wait until 2014.

It doesn't matter that it doesn't happen all the time. It happened this time and there is ZERO evidence that something fishy is up. None. Not a single ounce.

As for the trade... why wouldn't the Reds have to add more to acquire the better player (or even if you want to argue, the equal player, which I won't agree too but I know some are saying they are) with the longer contract?

reds44
08-12-2011, 08:30 PM
It doesn't matter that it doesn't happen all the time. It happened this time and there is ZERO evidence that something fishy is up. None. Not a single ounce.

As for the trade... why wouldn't the Reds have to add more to acquire the better player (or even if you want to argue, the equal player, which I won't agree too but I know some are saying they are) with the longer contract?
There is plenty of circumstantial evidence.

dougdirt
08-13-2011, 12:38 AM
There is plenty of circumstantial evidence.

I am still waiting to see something that a judge wouldn't flat out laugh at if brought to a court case.

camisadelgolf
08-13-2011, 06:51 AM
Are you all seriously losing sight of my well-researched facts? There are magic steroids.

osuceltic
08-13-2011, 04:41 PM
Why is his stuff that much better than other guys? Again, if he were getting stuff that were truly as good as some people seem to want to make it out to be, do you really think whoever is producing it isn't out there trying to sell it to other guys for big bucks? That is why they make it. They don't make it because they want to see guys perform better, they make it to sell it and make money. If you had a product that turned Bautista from what he was to what he is, you can bet your bottom that you would be out pimping that stuff to anyone and everyone and you can also bet that a lot of people would be ponying up the money for it seeing what he has done and the fact that he hasn't tested positive for anything. But here we are and Bautista is the only guy alive playing out of his mind. So why is he the only one getting this stuff? Probably because he isn't getting any stuff.

You could have used the same arguments to defend Bonds.

dougdirt
08-13-2011, 05:02 PM
You could have used the same arguments to defend Bonds.

Bonds was the only guy playing well above his previous threshold? Really?

Top it off with Bonds getting much bigger.

Johnny Footstool
08-13-2011, 05:26 PM
I'm not seeing the logic in the "no one else is obviously doing it, so Bautista can't be doing it either" argument.

camisadelgolf
08-13-2011, 05:29 PM
I don't understand why the fact that his home runs aren't traveling any further than they used to isn't being addressed by those who say he's cheating.

Johnny Footstool
08-13-2011, 05:34 PM
I don't understand why the fact that his home runs aren't traveling any further than they used to isn't being addressed by those who say he's cheating.

Because it's clear that he hasn't added bulk.

As addressed earlier in this thread, PEDs don't just make you stronger.

camisadelgolf
08-13-2011, 05:44 PM
Because it's clear that he hasn't added bulk.

As addressed earlier in this thread, PEDs don't just make you stronger.
If you're hitting balls pretty much the same way as before, how can you increase your bat speed without hitting the ball farther?

signalhome
08-13-2011, 06:00 PM
I don't understand why the fact that his home runs aren't traveling any further than they used to isn't being addressed by those who say he's cheating.

This is key. His HR spray chart, in my opinion, is the biggest piece of evidence that he is not cheating, but that he's simply found a much more solid approach at the plate.

RedsManRick
08-13-2011, 06:35 PM
Personally, I find these recent accusations of sign stealing a much more compelling explanation for why he was SO good. That is to say, what if his approach turned him in to a 40 HR guy and he picked up another dozen on pitches he knew were coming?

AtomicDumpling
08-13-2011, 07:51 PM
Because it's clear that he hasn't added bulk.

As addressed earlier in this thread, PEDs don't just make you stronger.

Then what aspect of the PEDs is causing him to hit more home runs?

The reason hitters take PEDs is to make them bigger, faster and stronger so they can hit the ball further. Bautista is not bigger, not stronger, not quicker and doesn't hit the ball further than he did before.

Is it your contention that he is taking PEDs that improve his endurance or help him recover from injury faster and that is why he is hitting more home runs?

PEDs work by causing physical changes in a player's body (and usually visible side effects as well). Those physical changes result in improved strength, quickness or endurance. If there are no physical changes how do you propose the PEDs would make Bautista hit more home runs?

edabbs44
08-13-2011, 08:40 PM
I think we can all agree that Jose Bautista is a HUGE outlier in the history of the game. HUGE. We have seen things like this before in recent times and much of that (if not all) was attributable to PEDs. I am unaware of anyone in the history of the game coming out of nowhere to become the best hitter in the game this late in their career.

So, if it really is him figuring something out with his swing, don't you think that this would have happened more frequently in the past? Or does he have a "magic" batting coach?

And for those who think that he is clean, Manny first got busted in 2009, 4 or so years after testing went live. Just because he hasn't gotten busted yet doesn't mean he is clean.

AtomicDumpling
08-13-2011, 08:58 PM
I think we can all agree that Jose Bautista is a HUGE outlier in the history of the game. HUGE. We have seen things like this before in recent times and much of that (if not all) was attributable to PEDs. I am unaware of anyone in the history of the game coming out of nowhere to become the best hitter in the game this late in their career.

So, if it really is him figuring something out with his swing, don't you think that this would have happened more frequently in the past? Or does he have a "magic" batting coach?

And for those who think that he is clean, Manny first got busted in 2009, 4 or so years after testing went live. Just because he hasn't gotten busted yet doesn't mean he is clean.

I think it is a little unfair to lump Bautista in with known cheaters like Manny and Bonds and McGwire. Those guys showed all the tell-tale physical and emotional indicators of PEDs usage, whereas Bautista does not. All previous chemically-induced power surges were accompanied by physical and emotional changes as well as increased distance on home runs. Bautista isn't even hitting the ball further than he was before. Not only is there a complete lack of tangible evidence that Bautista is using PEDs, but there is a great deal of evidence that Bautista is not taking PEDs.

Ravenlord
08-13-2011, 11:16 PM
this thread illustrates why i haven't really posted on the baseball side of this board in around two years. before there was discussion, now there are end-all-be-all camps; just like Congress.

its sad, but normal given the age of the board.

Johnny Footstool
08-14-2011, 02:37 AM
this thread illustrates why i haven't really posted on the baseball side of this board in around two years. before there was discussion, now there are end-all-be-all camps; just like Congress.

its sad, but normal given the age of the board.

Good to hear from you, Ravenlord, even under these circumstances.

reds44
08-16-2011, 12:37 AM
I am still waiting to see something that a judge wouldn't flat out laugh at if brought to a court case.
This isn't a court case.

dougdirt
08-16-2011, 02:11 AM
This isn't a court case.

No, it isn't. But if someone is going to try and bring an argument to the table, "well I think so" doesn't work much. Show something with actual facts behind it.

reds44
08-16-2011, 02:43 AM
No, it isn't. But if someone is going to try and bring an argument to the table, "well I think so" doesn't work much. Show something with actual facts behind it.
So you're telling me if it comes out tomorrow he tested positive for something you'd be surprised?

We both know the answer to that question.

AtomicDumpling
08-16-2011, 05:12 AM
The whole Bautista using PEDs scenario essentially got blown to bits in the Jose Bautista: Clean or PED User? thread. If anyone would like to continue discussing that topic maybe they could do it in that thread instead of hijacking this one?

Mario-Rijo
08-16-2011, 07:50 AM
Personally, I find these recent accusations of sign stealing a much more compelling explanation for why he was SO good. That is to say, what if his approach turned him in to a 40 HR guy and he picked up another dozen on pitches he knew were coming?

Which takes him from being "the best hitter in baseball" to no better than Votto and very, very likely not nearly as good as Votto. Which given the fact he isn't as good a hitter for avg. I find to be extremely likely.

dougdirt
08-16-2011, 06:09 PM
So you're telling me if it comes out tomorrow he tested positive for something you'd be surprised?

We both know the answer to that question.

Yes, I would be surprised. Nothing points to him being a user. Nothing.

edabbs44
08-16-2011, 07:11 PM
Yes, I would be surprised. Nothing points to him being a user. Nothing.

Except that he is doing something that has never been done before outside of the PED heyday. There is a pretty decent shot that something is up, from PEDs to corking to sign stealing to something really cool that I don't even know about.

We are in a very progressive era here, sometimes results are the best evidence until the cops have had a chance to catch up with the offenders. Bonds could have passed numerous drug tests during the era of Barry...why do you think it was called "the clear"?

dougdirt
08-16-2011, 08:25 PM
Except that he is doing something that has never been done before outside of the PED heyday. There is a pretty decent shot that something is up, from PEDs to corking to sign stealing to something really cool that I don't even know about.

We are in a very progressive era here, sometimes results are the best evidence until the cops have had a chance to catch up with the offenders. Bonds could have passed numerous drug tests during the era of Barry...why do you think it was called "the clear"?


Bonds may have been able to pass a test, but he also had plenty of other evidence with it. He was MUCH bigger than before. His head was also much bigger. He was linked to a trainer who was a known dealer.

Bautista is playing incredibly well. That is all you have. The comparison to Bonds simply isn't a good one.

edabbs44
08-16-2011, 09:50 PM
Bonds may have been able to pass a test, but he also had plenty of other evidence with it. He was MUCH bigger than before. His head was also much bigger. He was linked to a trainer who was a known dealer.

Bautista is playing incredibly well. That is all you have. The comparison to Bonds simply isn't a good one.

How big was ARod's head in 2002? Was he hanging with known dealers? Was Greg Anderson even known as anything back in the late 90s?

PED usage is the most popular hypothesis because of the time we live in but it could be something else. It's just almost unbelievable to think that this is 100% legit. If it is possible to go from 2 time Pittsburgh castoff to the best player in baseball at the age of 30 because of some work on your approach at the plate, you would think that there might be other examples like this in the 100+ years of major league baseball.

reds44
08-17-2011, 12:58 AM
How big was ARod's head in 2002? Was he hanging with known dealers? Was Greg Anderson even known as anything back in the late 90s?

PED usage is the most popular hypothesis because of the time we live in but it could be something else. It's just almost unbelievable to think that this is 100% legit. If it is possible to go from 2 time Pittsburgh castoff to the best player in baseball at the age of 30 because of some work on your approach at the plate, you would think that there might be other examples like this in the 100+ years of major league baseball.
This.

dougdirt
08-17-2011, 02:20 AM
How big was ARod's head in 2002? Was he hanging with known dealers? Was Greg Anderson even known as anything back in the late 90s?

PED usage is the most popular hypothesis because of the time we live in but it could be something else. It's just almost unbelievable to think that this is 100% legit. If it is possible to go from 2 time Pittsburgh castoff to the best player in baseball at the age of 30 because of some work on your approach at the plate, you would think that there might be other examples like this in the 100+ years of major league baseball.

You are missing the point that has been brought up a hundred times. Age doesn't have much to do with changing your approach. Bautista finally found what works for his approach. Most guys find it much sooner than he did. So the fact that no one else has found it this late (or those who did simply didn't have the talent to make such a dramatic difference) doesn't mean that he hasn't or couldn't.

AtomicDumpling
08-17-2011, 04:10 AM
How big was ARod's head in 2002? Was he hanging with known dealers? Was Greg Anderson even known as anything back in the late 90s?

PED usage is the most popular hypothesis because of the time we live in but it could be something else. It's just almost unbelievable to think that this is 100% legit. If it is possible to go from 2 time Pittsburgh castoff to the best player in baseball at the age of 30 because of some work on your approach at the plate, you would think that there might be other examples like this in the 100+ years of major league baseball.

Actually he was 28.

It is more believable than the assertion that he was the only guy given a chance to take a brand new PED that turned him into the best player in baseball one day late in the season without any physical or emotional changes at all and also without hitting the ball any further than he did before and at the exact moment he changed his approach at the plate.

I guess the mad scientist that secretly developed this undetectable drug that instantly causes you to hit more home runs by hitting the ball down the line without making you bigger, stronger or faster decided that he would only give it to Jose Bautista. Is this perfectly plausible? Is the fact that this happened on the exact same day that Bautista was given permission to swing for the fences and try to yank everything down the left field line entirely coincidental?

KronoRed
08-17-2011, 04:21 AM
You know who I think was using steroids?

Barry Larkin in 1996.

Chip R
08-17-2011, 10:04 AM
Perhaps Bautista is dirty but is there another reason for his turnaround?

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/6837424/baseball-toronto-blue-jays-suspicion-again-stealing-signs-rogers-centre

RedFanAlways1966
08-17-2011, 11:01 AM
Perhaps Bautista is dirty but is there another reason for his turnaround?

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/6837424/baseball-toronto-blue-jays-suspicion-again-stealing-signs-rogers-centre

With all teams televising games, someone has to have video of this "man-in-white" doing this if it is true.

puca
08-17-2011, 12:19 PM
With all teams televising games, someone has to have video of this "man-in-white" doing this if it is true.

If a team really believed this was happening why wouldn't they video tape this "man in white" themselves, or even report it to the MLB offices?

jojo
08-17-2011, 02:16 PM
Canadians don't cheat.

Eric_the_Red
08-17-2011, 08:15 PM
Canadians don't cheat.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/35891/793092-dudley_do_right_large.jpg

edabbs44
08-17-2011, 10:26 PM
You are missing the point that has been brought up a hundred times. Age doesn't have much to do with changing your approach. Bautista finally found what works for his approach. Most guys find it much sooner than he did. So the fact that no one else has found it this late (or those who did simply didn't have the talent to make such a dramatic difference) doesn't mean that he hasn't or couldn't.

So here's what we are saying: His approach, and only his approach, was the difference between not being good enough to play for the dregs of the majors to becoming the best hitter that we have seen in years.

edabbs44
08-17-2011, 10:27 PM
Actually he was 28.

It is more believable than the assertion that he was the only guy given a chance to take a brand new PED that turned him into the best player in baseball one day late in the season without any physical or emotional changes at all and also without hitting the ball any further than he did before and at the exact moment he changed his approach at the plate.

I guess the mad scientist that secretly developed this undetectable drug that instantly causes you to hit more home runs by hitting the ball down the line without making you bigger, stronger or faster decided that he would only give it to Jose Bautista. Is this perfectly plausible? Is the fact that this happened on the exact same day that Bautista was given permission to swing for the fences and try to yank everything down the left field line entirely coincidental?

Maybe it isn't a brand new PED. Maybe it is a new way to conceal an old PED.

It could be a lot of things.

AtomicDumpling
08-17-2011, 10:31 PM
So here's what we are saying: His approach, and only his approach, was the difference between not being good enough to play for the dregs of the majors to becoming the best hitter that we have seen in years.

Jose Bautista was an average or better major league hitter before he caught fire. His career OPS was about .740 before he changed his approach.

He didn't get any bigger, stronger or faster and he doesn't hit the ball further than he did before. So the evidence all points in the direction away from PEDs.

edabbs44
08-17-2011, 10:37 PM
Jose Bautista was an average or better major league hitter before he caught fire. His career OPS was about .740 before he changed his approach.

He didn't get any bigger, stronger or faster and he doesn't hit the ball further than he did before. So the evidence all points in the direction away from PEDs.

All the evidence except the fact that he is doing something that has only been done in recent times by users.

And he was never better than average.

AtomicDumpling
08-17-2011, 10:47 PM
All the evidence except the fact that he is doing something that has only been done in recent times by users.

And he was never better than average.

.740 OPS is average or better in MLB.

What users started hitting all their fly balls down the line? Which users started hitting lots of home runs without showing any telltale signs of PEDs usage? Which users suddenly started hitting home runs midseason?

The facts show Jose Bautista does not fit the profile of a PEDs user.

edabbs44
08-17-2011, 10:52 PM
.740 OPS is average or better in MLB.

What users started hitting all their fly balls down the line? Which users started hitting lots of home runs without showing any telltale signs of PEDs usage? Which users suddenly started hitting home runs midseason?

The facts show Jose Bautista does not fit the profile of a PEDs user.

As I said, something is likely up. Maybe it is PEDs, maybe it isn't.

But I can play that game as well. What hitters in the past 25 years increased their numbers like Bautista has w/o PEDs?

Tony Cloninger
08-18-2011, 12:15 AM
As I said, something is likely up. Maybe it is PEDs, maybe it isn't.

But I can play that game as well. What hitters in the past 25 years increased their numbers like Bautista has w/o PEDs?

Curtis Granderson?

Going back even further....if you would have seen George Foster in 1974-75 and even 1976 would you have thought a season like 1977 was possible?

Roger Maris from 1958-59 to what he did in 1960-61?

Those last 2 you had possible explanations like expansion, ball park affects (Maris)

Blitz Dorsey
08-31-2011, 02:19 AM
Oh, and there's exactly as much evidence Jose is on the juice as there is Joey Votto himself is on the juice -- which is to say, none whatsoever.

I love when the "evidence" card is pulled. You are correct -- I do not have a urine sample from Bautista that I have tested. (Thankfully.) It reminds me of the Barry Bonds and Lance Armstrong supporters. "Hey, he's never failed a test. Where's the proof?" OK, let's remove common sense from the discussion. That's always a wise decision.

Maybe our definition of "evidence" is different when it comes to baseball players. I'm not talking about 100 percent rock-solid evidence, but when a below-average player suddenly turns into a 1.000 OPS/50+ HR guy at the age of 29, that is what is called circumstantial evidence.

You bring up Votto, who has been consistent throughout his young career thus far and keeps getting better. Votto does not have any warning signs that he might be using PEDs. Votto was good in the minors, good when he arrived in MLB and is now considered one of the great players in the game. He had an MVP season at the age of 26 and is still only 27. He never had some two-year surge out of nowhere. We don't know for sure that Votto is not on the juice, but he sure as hell is a lot less suspicious than Jose Bautista. Would you not concur? I would love to see a poll across Major League Baseball to see what the masses believe on that front. Baseball fans aren't stupid. Fans and reporters turned a blind eye for far too long to obvious red flags but those days are over IMO. If you want to believe Bautista magically turned into a great player at the age of 29, good for you. I think there's a much-better chance he found a really good HGH supplier.

jojo
08-31-2011, 09:05 AM
I think there's a much-better chance he found a really good HGH supplier.

If that's your critical premise, then the conclusion needs reevaluated given what is known about HGH and how his game has changed.

Roy Tucker
08-31-2011, 09:37 AM
Going back even further....if you would have seen George Foster in 1974-75 and even 1976 would you have thought a season like 1977 was possible?




It was the cork transplant into his forearms.

;)

dougdirt
08-31-2011, 10:17 AM
I love when the "evidence" card is pulled. You are correct -- I do not have a urine sample from Bautista that I have tested. (Thankfully.) It reminds me of the Barry Bonds and Lance Armstrong supporters. "Hey, he's never failed a test. Where's the proof?" OK, let's remove common sense from the discussion. That's always a wise decision.

Maybe our definition of "evidence" is different when it comes to baseball players. I'm not talking about 100 percent rock-solid evidence, but when a below-average player suddenly turns into a 1.000 OPS/50+ HR guy at the age of 29, that is what is called circumstantial evidence.

You bring up Votto, who has been consistent throughout his young career thus far and keeps getting better. Votto does not have any warning signs that he might be using PEDs. Votto was good in the minors, good when he arrived in MLB and is now considered one of the great players in the game. He had an MVP season at the age of 26 and is still only 27. He never had some two-year surge out of nowhere. We don't know for sure that Votto is not on the juice, but he sure as hell is a lot less suspicious than Jose Bautista. Would you not concur? I would love to see a poll across Major League Baseball to see what the masses believe on that front. Baseball fans aren't stupid. Fans and reporters turned a blind eye for far too long to obvious red flags but those days are over IMO. If you want to believe Bautista magically turned into a great player at the age of 29, good for you. I think there's a much-better chance he found a really good HGH supplier.
Why is Jose Bautista the only athlete to go from a no one to a seeming HOF type of talent?

If we are going to bring up "circumstancial evidence" I will put on my lawyer hat and ask this: What would lead anyone to believe that the alleged supplier of PED's to Jose Bautista is not out telling anyone and everyone he can that he has the drugs that have turned him from, as you put it "a below average player" to what is looking like a true HOF type of talent? The people that produce these drugs aren't doing it for fun. They are doing it for money. BIG MONEY. So why isn't this alleged supplier out there pushing this wonder drug to everyone? If he is, why isn't it working for anyone else?

Your theory has major holes in it. In fact, I would argue that your theory actually shows that its more likely that Bautista ISN'T on anything. If he were, then others would also be getting their hands on it and also be exploding into super players. But they aren't. Not a single one. Just Bautista.

And really, with Bonds and Armstrong, there was a lot more than "well he is really good". Armstrong has had people in his life claiming he was cheating for years. He has had many reporters come up with actual evidence suggesting he was cheating. Bonds, it was clear. The guy got huge. His head and feet grew at ages when those things simply don't grow naturally. That is evidence. A guy getting really good without any signs at all or any evidence at all isn't evidence.

Blitz Dorsey
08-31-2011, 11:21 AM
Why is Jose Bautista the only athlete to go from a no one to a seeming HOF type of talent?

If we are going to bring up "circumstancial evidence" I will put on my lawyer hat and ask this: What would lead anyone to believe that the alleged supplier of PED's to Jose Bautista is not out telling anyone and everyone he can that he has the drugs that have turned him from, as you put it "a below average player" to what is looking like a true HOF type of talent? The people that produce these drugs aren't doing it for fun. They are doing it for money. BIG MONEY. So why isn't this alleged supplier out there pushing this wonder drug to everyone? If he is, why isn't it working for anyone else?

Your theory has major holes in it. In fact, I would argue that your theory actually shows that its more likely that Bautista ISN'T on anything. If he were, then others would also be getting their hands on it and also be exploding into super players. But they aren't. Not a single one. Just Bautista.

And really, with Bonds and Armstrong, there was a lot more than "well he is really good". Armstrong has had people in his life claiming he was cheating for years. He has had many reporters come up with actual evidence suggesting he was cheating. Bonds, it was clear. The guy got huge. His head and feet grew at ages when those things simply don't grow naturally. That is evidence. A guy getting really good without any signs at all or any evidence at all isn't evidence.

That's your opinion, Doug. It's my opinion that Bautista suddenly going from below-average to great at the age of 29 was likely PED-induced. It's not like his breakout season happened at 25 or 26, it happened at 29. Give me the list of the players in MLB history that had such a precipitous breakout so late in their career -- especially during the PED era (which I do not believe is over). It will be a short list. It might include one person and his first name is Jose (not Canseco, not Cruz, but the one you're thinking of).

It's too bad Brady Anderson got off the juice so quickly or maybe he would've had people like you convinced he just suddenly became a power hitter. If Brady Anderson could have just had two good years like Bautista in his career instead of one, it would have removed all suspicion. (Or not.)

puca
08-31-2011, 11:42 AM
First off, let me say this, I have no idea whether Bautista is clean or a PED user. And I very much doubt any of you do either. I do know he is a very good baseball player.

It appears that the only evidence put forth that he is a PED user is that he accomplished something that very few players (that aren't themselves suspected or known to be PED users) have ever done. The argument has already been made that with that broad of a brush there should be many suspected PED users through the anals of baseball history. For example other than Maris only known/suspected PED users ever hit more than 60 HRs in a season ergo Maris must have used PEDs. Maybe time-travel explains how he got a hold of them.

Let me throw out another counter-argument. If Jose Bautista is the type of guy that would take PEDs to improve his performance, why would he have waited until they started testing for PEDs before he actually started using them? Why wouldn't he have been using PEDs all along? Just think, if he had used PEDs in the mid/late 90s and become a star at the age of 22, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Caveat Emperor
08-31-2011, 01:46 PM
A friend put the argument to me this way, and I've been in the Bautista is probably clean camp ever since:

Given the environment of suspicion regarding PEDs in baseball right now, how dumb would Bautista be to start using and immediately let his numbers explode the way he did? Wouldn't you ease into things to give at least the impression of a natural progression to deflect suspicion?

RedFanAlways1966
08-31-2011, 02:18 PM
A friend put the argument to me this way, and I've been in the Bautista is probably clean camp ever since:

Given the environment of suspicion regarding PEDs in baseball right now, how dumb would Bautista be to start using and immediately let his numbers explode the way he did? Wouldn't you ease into things to give at least the impression of a natural progression to deflect suspicion?

<not meant directly at you, CE> How are we certain PEDs are being PROPERLY TESTED FOR in MLB? Do we really believe that PEDs are not being used in the NFL (they test too, right?)? I gave an example long ago in this thread of an NFL'er that was told 90 days prior to his testing that he would be tested. Plenty of time to clean the system.

Obviously the gaudy HR numbers have dropped (no more chasing Maris if you will). Something has changed from the 1990's to early 2000's. However, why should I (a MLB fan) trust anyone/anything related to MLB in this regard? That trust was broken when you got me all excited with Sosa-McGwire and all the other BS that I am convinced you knew about and hid from me and more importantly my wallet. It might take a decade or two (3?), but I have no problems with any fan questioning how legit anything like this is in the game we love. Blame Bud and the boys... not the fans.

klw
08-31-2011, 02:28 PM
That's your opinion, Doug. It's my opinion that Bautista suddenly going from below-average to great at the age of 29 was likely PED-induced. It's not like his breakout season happened at 25 or 26, it happened at 29. Give me the list of the players in MLB history that had such a precipitous breakout so late in their career -- especially during the PED era (which I do not believe is over). It will be a short list. It might include one person and his first name is Jose (not Canseco, not Cruz, but the one you're thinking of).
)

The person I immediately thought of was Steve Findley.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/f/finlest01.shtml
He suddenly became a 30 hr run guy at age 31 in 1996. (Not suspicious at all there :rolleyes:) I think he previous career high was 11 despite full playing time for a few years.

About Bautista I have no idea if he is clean or not but I hope and believe he is. Findley I think juiced.

Homer Bailey
08-31-2011, 03:45 PM
There is clearly no convincing many of you guys that accuse JB of steroids because a lot of you can't look past the "he got really really good late in his career" aspect of this story, but if you actually want to do some research, then please, PLEASE read this article. Seriously, do yourself a favor, and read it, and explain to me why his hitting coach from the Pirates is saying things like this:


"What stood out with Jose was his amazing bat speed," Manto says. "It was way, way off the charts. We'd watch this guy and think, If this ever clicks, look out.... But you say that about a lot of guys. For some of them, it never does click."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1187578/1/index.htm

Superdude
08-31-2011, 06:13 PM
There is clearly no convincing many of you guys

Exactly. This argument has been played out ten times over. Agreeing to disagree is really the only way this is going to end. Stay classy redszone...and thanks for stopping by...but mainly stay classy

CTA513
08-31-2011, 06:24 PM
If Bautista is off limits then I guess Pujols can no longer be accused on here.

jojo
08-31-2011, 06:41 PM
If Bautista is off limits then I guess Pujols can no longer be accused on here.

Why should Pujols be accused in the first place?

CTA513
08-31-2011, 06:42 PM
Why should Pujols be accused in the first place?

Ask the people who accuse him

Tony Cloninger
09-01-2011, 12:38 PM
Again I ask......why no one is accusing Granderson of this? It's a joke what he is doing right now.

Superdude
09-01-2011, 01:04 PM
Again I ask......why no one is accusing Granderson of this? It's a joke what he is doing right now.

Because you're only allowed to improve so much as a baseball player before it becomes obvious you're a steroids user. Granderson fits just below the line so no questioning is necessary at all, whereas Bautista has basically indicted himself regardless of any logical evidence to the contrary. *sarcasm off*

dougdirt
09-01-2011, 04:40 PM
Again I ask......why no one is accusing Granderson of this? It's a joke what he is doing right now.

Granderson is likely benefiting from Yankee Stadium as a lefty. His HR's are traveling less than they did last year, suggesting he is getting a bit lucky on his HR's.

It also isn't like he hasn't shown power before either. He has had two season where he showed very good power prior to this season. He has 1 thirty HR season under his belt coming into the year. Then one year with 38 doubles, 23 triples and 23 HR's. As a lefty, letting him pull everything in Yankee Stadium is going to help some of those doubles turn into HR's.

bucksfan2
09-01-2011, 05:10 PM
Again I ask......why no one is accusing Granderson of this? It's a joke what he is doing right now.

I think Granderson escapes a lot of criticism and accusations because for the most part he is a likeable guy. Every story you read about him is positive and people in general want to root for guys like that. They get the benefit of the doubt where a-holes don't.

AtomicDumpling
09-01-2011, 05:57 PM
Again I ask......why no one is accusing Granderson of this? It's a joke what he is doing right now.

Much like Bautista, Granderson has been pulling almost all of his home runs down the line to the short porch. Neither Bautista nor Granderson is hitting the ball further than did before their home run surges.

The real PEDs users like McGuire, Sosa, ARod, Manny Ramirez, Barry Bonds and others were hitting the ball a country mile -- sometimes literally out of the stadium. Those guys bulked up with huge muscles, associated with unsavory characters and showed emotional and physical signs of PEDs usage. Bautista and Granderson have done none of those things.

jojo
09-01-2011, 06:26 PM
I think Granderson escapes a lot of criticism and accusations because for the most part he is a likeable guy. Every story you read about him is positive and people in general want to root for guys like that. They get the benefit of the doubt where a-holes don't.

Bautista is a nice guy though.

Mario-Rijo
09-01-2011, 06:26 PM
I think Granderson escapes a lot of criticism and accusations because for the most part he is a likeable guy. Every story you read about him is positive and people in general want to root for guys like that. They get the benefit of the doubt where a-holes don't.

This may or may not be true, I don't know either of them or have a sense of which category either falls into but no way is this a part of the issue, big time reach BF2.

Big Klu
09-01-2011, 09:38 PM
If Bautista is pulling everything, aren't pitchers eventually going to adjust?

dougdirt
09-01-2011, 09:45 PM
If Bautista is pulling everything, aren't pitchers eventually going to adjust?

How much can you adjust when he can pull both the inside strike and the outside strike?

Big Klu
09-01-2011, 10:03 PM
How much can you adjust when he can pull both the inside strike and the outside strike?

Then you have to get him off the plate. If that means you stick one in his ribs every game, then that's what you do.

kaldaniels
09-01-2011, 10:11 PM
Then you have to get him off the plate. If that means you stick one in his ribs every game, then that's what you do.

I used to be a big believer in stuff like that but I am coming around to the fact that that strategy just wouldn't fly in this era of 100 million dollar contracts.

Big Klu
09-01-2011, 10:19 PM
I used to be a big believer in stuff like that but I am coming around to the fact that that strategy just wouldn't fly in this era of 100 million dollar contracts.

I know, but I can't see letting him stand on top of the plate and serving it up to him like it's on a tee.

dougdirt
09-02-2011, 01:26 AM
I know, but I can't see letting him stand on top of the plate and serving it up to him like it's on a tee.

He doesn't stand on top of the plate though. Not anymore than anyone else does.

Big Klu
09-02-2011, 01:58 AM
He doesn't stand on top of the plate though. Not anymore than anyone else does.

Then he shouldn't be able to yank an outside pitch with that kind of authority. Pitchers somehow have to establish half of the plate.

On an unrelated note, Bautista seemed very ordinary in the three-game series at GABP earlier this season. He reminded me of the Jose Bautista who used to play for the Pirates.

Superdude
09-02-2011, 02:40 AM
On an unrelated note, Bautista seemed very ordinary in the three-game series at GABP earlier this season. He reminded me of the Jose Bautista who used to play for the Pirates.

Really? I don't remember how he did results wise, but his swing seemed just downright ferocious. Don't really recall many of his Pirate days though

dougdirt
09-02-2011, 02:45 AM
Really? I don't remember how he did results wise, but his swing seemed just downright ferocious. Don't really recall many of his Pirate days though

He went 5-12 with a double in the series vs the Reds.

Blitz Dorsey
09-02-2011, 09:51 AM
Why should Pujols be accused in the first place?

Because he's an obvious user IMO. He's right up there with guys like Clemens before they got caught. I remember thinking "There is no doubt Clemens is on the juice." I feel the exact same way about Pujols. I have no doubt if there were HGH testing he would have been busted long ago. He's just not dumb enough like people such as Manny Ramirez who still take the stuff they test for. The smart PED users are taking HGH because there is no test for it in MLB.

jojo
09-02-2011, 11:32 AM
Because he's an obvious user IMO. He's right up there with guys like Clemens before they got caught. I remember thinking "There is no doubt Clemens is on the juice." I feel the exact same way about Pujols. I have no doubt if there were HGH testing he would have been busted long ago. He's just not dumb enough like people such as Manny Ramirez who still take the stuff they test for. The smart PED users are taking HGH because there is no test for it in MLB.

That argument hinges upon the premise that HGH is actually an effective PED for baseball players in their prime which is a claim that simply isn't well supported (in fact there is significant evidence to suggest it not an effective PED for baseball players).

It also suggests Pujols started taking HGH sometime before 2000 (his first year in pro ball...his only year in the minors in fact). Steroids weren't being tested for back then. Why would he take HGH? To argue that, one would have to believe Pujols either has been taking HGH all along or he switched to HGH after testing was implemented and HGH did the exact same thing for him that his previous designer steroids were doing.

None of that really makes much sense IMHO.

In the end, it's basically calling Pujols a cheater without any proof and using arguments constructed upon pretty weak assumptions.

Blitz Dorsey
09-02-2011, 12:25 PM
That argument hinges upon the premise that HGH is actually an effective PED for baseball players in their prime which is a claim that simply isn't well supported (in fact there is significant evidence to suggest it not an effective PED for baseball players).

It also suggests Pujols started taking HGH sometime before 2000 (his first year in pro ball...his only year in the minors in fact). Steroids weren't being tested for back then. Why would he take HGH? To argue that, one would have to believe Pujols either has been taking HGH all along or he switched to HGH after testing was implemented and HGH did the exact same thing for him that his previous designer steroids were doing.

None of that really makes much sense IMHO.

In the end, it's basically calling Pujols a cheater without any proof and using arguments constructed upon pretty weak assumptions.

That's fine. You say my assumptions are weak. I counter with you're naive if you think Pujols is clean. No need in me writing out a 5-page novel of why I think there is plenty of circumstantial evidence that Pujols HAS been juicing since perhaps his final year playing JUCO ball, but it wouldn't change anyone's mind, so it's not worth it. I'm convinced he's on the juice, you're not, fair enough.

Superdude
09-02-2011, 03:51 PM
That's fine. You say my assumptions are weak. I counter with you're naive if you think Pujols is clean. No need in me writing out a 5-page novel of why I think there is plenty of circumstantial evidence that Pujols HAS been juicing since perhaps his final year playing JUCO ball, but it wouldn't change anyone's mind, so it's not worth it. I'm convinced he's on the juice, you're not, fair enough.

No one's naive for refusing to buy into an argument based on weak assumptions. If anything, your obstinate, sweeping conclusions make you look incredibly biased and jaded.

signalhome
09-02-2011, 06:21 PM
That's fine. You say my assumptions are weak. I counter with you're naive if you think Pujols is clean. No need in me writing out a 5-page novel of why I think there is plenty of circumstantial evidence that Pujols HAS been juicing since perhaps his final year playing JUCO ball, but it wouldn't change anyone's mind, so it's not worth it. I'm convinced he's on the juice, you're not, fair enough.

I guess I'm naive.

Of course Pujols could be juicing. As I've stated before, there isn't a single player that upon testing positive for PEDs would elicit even the slightest amount of surprise from me. However, that doesn't mean I just assume that every non-Reds player (why assume Pujols is using but Votto isn't, especially considering Votto has the more volatile personality) with a wOBA over .400 is doing so through illicit means. Until given a pretty damn good reason to think otherwise, I tend to err on the side of a player being clean, Pujols included.

Jpup
09-02-2011, 06:35 PM
Pujols former trainer is a known PED peddler.

camisadelgolf
09-02-2011, 09:16 PM
Granderson made a big adjustment in his swing against lhp. It's kind of like what Bautista did, but Bautista had shown almost no prior history of success which automatically means he's using PEDs.

Brutus
09-03-2011, 02:05 AM
Granderson made a big adjustment in his swing against lhp. It's kind of like what Bautista did, but Bautista had shown almost no prior history of success which automatically means he's using PEDs.

I think it's that in 40 years prior, his breakout slugging season at 28 years or older was more than 30 points greater than any single player, outside of a 5-year steroid-rampant era, had ever had relative to their previous career slugging.

We're not just talking about not having prior success, and then having success. We're talking about unprecedented success matched only by known steroid users.

Johnny Footstool
09-03-2011, 02:28 AM
I think it's that in 40 years prior, his breakout slugging season at 28 years or older was more than 30 points greater than any single player, outside of a 5-year steroid-rampant era, had ever had relative to their previous career slugging.

We're not just talking about not having prior success, and then having success. We're talking about unprecedented success matched only by known steroid users.

Bautista couldn't even crack the lineup of (arguably) one of the worst MLB franchises (the Pirates), and now he's all-world?

Brutus
09-03-2011, 02:33 AM
Bautista couldn't even crack the lineup of (arguably) one of the worst MLB franchises (the Pirates), and now he's all-world?

Yeah it defies logic. And it's not like many, many hitters haven't had potential that was manifested through a swing adjustment. That's happened a lot. But history tells us that the impact isn't anything remotely like what we're seeing with Bautista.

Patrick Bateman
09-03-2011, 12:59 PM
Yeah it defies logic. And it's not like many, many hitters haven't had potential that was manifested through a swing adjustment. That's happened a lot. But history tells us that the impact isn't anything remotely like what we're seeing with Bautista.

But at the sametime, you look at Albert Pujols who basically had unpresidented production (for the era) when he came into the league straight from A ball (where he didn't flat out dominate.

Or Josh Hamilton who went from crappy stats in A ball, to cocaine for 5 years and badly mistreating his body, then straight to the major leagues putting up MVP production basically immediately.

Unpresidented stuff happens in many circumstances, and in some cases it's the result of PEDS, and in some circumstances it's not.

Is it reasonable hypothesis? Sure.

But there are also other reasonable ways out there that explain Bautista's production and I think it's more than a little obtuse not to at least recognize other ideas when there is no tangible evidence to support the PED/HGH claim.

Brutus
09-03-2011, 04:46 PM
But at the sametime, you look at Albert Pujols who basically had unpresidented production (for the era) when he came into the league straight from A ball (where he didn't flat out dominate.

Or Josh Hamilton who went from crappy stats in A ball, to cocaine for 5 years and badly mistreating his body, then straight to the major leagues putting up MVP production basically immediately.

Unpresidented stuff happens in many circumstances, and in some cases it's the result of PEDS, and in some circumstances it's not.

Is it reasonable hypothesis? Sure.

But there are also other reasonable ways out there that explain Bautista's production and I think it's more than a little obtuse not to at least recognize other ideas when there is no tangible evidence to support the PED/HGH claim.

While these are fair points, consider the guys you mentioned clearly possessed a lot of talent all along. Josh Hamilton was a No. 1-draft pick for a reason. While his story is amazing, talent was never his problem. It was the off-the-field stuff that held him back.

Pujols is certainly a good example in that he was a 14th round pick, though I'd argue that since Pujols did it at 21 years old, it was clear he had that talent all along.

Bautista was never even a top-100 prospect by Baseball America and had a career slugging of .400 at 28 years old. Then suddenly at 29 he turns into the best hitter in the game? Unprecedented is one thing, miraculous is another. Bautista would need some talent to have this kind of breakthrough, as PEDs alone wouldn't accomplish it. And I'm sure a swing adjustment can be responsible for improvement as well. There's no questioning that. But I just don't think a swing adjustment alone can harvest that kind of untapped potential at 29 years old that wasn't exhibited in 10 years of professional baseball.

jojo
09-03-2011, 05:14 PM
It's sad that it's considered acceptable to accuse and condemn someone's character and integrity without any evidence whatsoever. And no, it's not "their own fault".

Patrick Bateman
09-03-2011, 07:35 PM
While these are fair points, consider the guys you mentioned clearly possessed a lot of talent all along. Josh Hamilton was a No. 1-draft pick for a reason. While his story is amazing, talent was never his problem. It was the off-the-field stuff that held him back.

Pujols is certainly a good example in that he was a 14th round pick, though I'd argue that since Pujols did it at 21 years old, it was clear he had that talent all along.

Bautista was never even a top-100 prospect by Baseball America and had a career slugging of .400 at 28 years old. Then suddenly at 29 he turns into the best hitter in the game? Unprecedented is one thing, miraculous is another. Bautista would need some talent to have this kind of breakthrough, as PEDs alone wouldn't accomplish it. And I'm sure a swing adjustment can be responsible for improvement as well. There's no questioning that. But I just don't think a swing adjustment alone can harvest that kind of untapped potential at 29 years old that wasn't exhibited in 10 years of professional baseball.

Maybe there is more than the articles tell.

Maybe he really wasn't that well of a conditioned athlete.
Maybe he didn't do a lot of weights.
Maybe he had a crap diet.
Etc, etc, etc.

We likely don't know the whole story, but maybe he brought his fitness, conditioning, ans strength to another level he had never been at before, that in unison with a new swing, allowed him to do everything faster and stronger.

Who knows. My point at bringing up those other players is that there is an exception to every rule.

Maybe they are exceptions in different ways, but I find it no more difficult to believe that a marginal starting player's production exploded than I can believe that a player with a drug ridden body and little to no exposure to above A ball pitching could suddenly come back from a 5 year hiatus as an MVP type of player. Of course in Hamilton's case the talent was still there, but he had still never faced elite pitching, and yet with literally no practice (similar to Pujols) was an instant sensation.

It's a different type of exception, but still very abnormal/rare, and difficult to fathom. Humans are unpredictable, and in the case of Bautista he's just done it in a very particular way.

So again, why is it impossible that he coldn't have done this without the way of drugs? Weird stuff happens in every sport.

I'm not saying it's not possible that he has used drugs, or that it shouldn't even be imagined, but to suggest there is only 1 potential way this could have happened is simply not correct.

Johnny Footstool
09-04-2011, 03:13 AM
But at the sametime, you look at Albert Pujols who basically had unpresidented production (for the era) when he came into the league straight from A ball (where he didn't flat out dominate.

Or Josh Hamilton who went from crappy stats in A ball, to cocaine for 5 years and badly mistreating his body, then straight to the major leagues putting up MVP production basically immediately.

Unpresidented stuff happens in many circumstances, and in some cases it's the result of PEDS, and in some circumstances it's not.

Is it reasonable hypothesis? Sure.

But there are also other reasonable ways out there that explain Bautista's production and I think it's more than a little obtuse not to at least recognize other ideas when there is no tangible evidence to support the PED/HGH claim.

If you're trying to distance Bautista from PEDs, you probably shouldn't compare him to Pujols, who has a pretty big PED shadow following him.

Hamilton was a highly-regarded prospect who had to deal with drug abuse. That's an apples-and-oranges comparison.

Patrick Bateman
09-04-2011, 01:33 PM
If you're trying to distance Bautista from PEDs, you probably shouldn't compare him to Pujols, who has a pretty big PED shadow following him.

Hamilton was a highly-regarded prospect who had to deal with drug abuse. That's an apples-and-oranges comparison.

I'm not saying it's an apples-apples comparison.

All I'm suggesting is that there are numerous other situations where there was a huge misnomer in the way that we would normally evaluate players and that it can happen in numerous different fashions.

And in regards to Pujols, he's been tested for 10+ years and not been caught yet. So again, he's not someone that should automatically be thrown in the PED bin.

osuceltic
09-04-2011, 07:22 PM
I'm not saying it's an apples-apples comparison.

All I'm suggesting is that there are numerous other situations where there was a huge misnomer in the way that we would normally evaluate players and that it can happen in numerous different fashions.

And in regards to Pujols, he's been tested for 10+ years and not been caught yet. So again, he's not someone that should automatically be thrown in the PED bin.
Nothing sounds more naive than the "he has never tested positive" argument. Guys have been getting around those tests for years.

nate
09-04-2011, 07:35 PM
Nothing sounds more naive than the "he has never tested positive" argument. Guys have been getting around those tests for years.

Oh, there are things that sound more naive than that.

Patrick Bateman
09-04-2011, 07:49 PM
Nothing sounds more naive than the "he has never tested positive" argument. Guys have been getting around those tests for years.

Then why do so many guys get caught?

And why does it even matter that he is on PED's?

If he isn't going to get caught and likely to continue his production, why does anybody even care.

Under your assessment, it will never be proven, so this whole discussion isn't even relevant anyways. It would simply be non fact discourse based on nothing that is irrelvent to anything.

puca
09-04-2011, 09:54 PM
Furthermore if it is so easy to get away with isn't it pretty likely that many players are using? And if you think many players are using, more than likely some are wearing Reds uniforms. So, who on the Reds do you think is using?

Patrick Bateman
09-04-2011, 10:01 PM
Furthermore if it is so easy to get away with isn't it pretty likely that many players are using? And if you think many players are using, more than likely some are wearing Reds uniforms. So, who on the Reds do you think is using?

Clearly Votto since his AAA stats based on his age did not project to becoming an MVP player, and was once bandied about in trades for Blanton and Ryan Garko, when Votto wasn't even considered the gem of the deal.