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View Full Version : dmitri Young... Errr, Yonder Alonso Taking Balls at 3B



Scrap Irony
08-03-2011, 09:09 PM
Shades of the Lost Decade or genius move that could get another good LH bat in the lineup?

dougdirt
08-03-2011, 09:11 PM
I just don't get it. The Reds clearly thought Alonso had shown enough in left to let him play 75% of his games in AAA out there. So he gets to the Majors and now he is being tried out at a position he has never played as a pro? This organization frustrates the crap out of me sometimes. The rest of the time I am probably asleep.

LoganBuck
08-03-2011, 09:17 PM
All because he made one bad play in left field Monday night. Done forever, confirmational bias. Of course Dusty has run Dunn, and Gomes out there without caring about what they look like.

Redsfan320
08-03-2011, 09:19 PM
At this point, I think I want Frazier and Alonso in the lineup vs RHP with Heisey replacing Alonso vs. LHP. Now whether Frazier plays 3B and Alonso LF vs. RHP or vice-versa... I don't really care, whatever works best I guess. Although at the moment, I'd go with Alonso in LF.

320

Always Red
08-03-2011, 09:20 PM
All because he made one bad play in left field Monday night. Done forever, confirmational bias. Of course Dusty has run Dunn, and Gomes out there without caring about what they look like.

Funny, I keep watching Renteria make bad play after bad play at SS. I guess LF is a more important defensive position.

Tom Servo
08-03-2011, 09:39 PM
But then where will we put our longtime star 3B Austin Kearns?

LoganBuck
08-03-2011, 09:51 PM
Funny, I keep watching Renteria make bad play after bad play at SS. I guess LF is a more important defensive position.

Yep.

Redhook
08-03-2011, 09:58 PM
Yep, this is pretty ridiculous. This has Dusty written all over it. It's beyond obvious Yonder will never be a major league 3rd basemen. At least one that is close to average. Yonder should be out there everyday playing left field. He'll never be a great left fielder, but so what. Most left fielders aren't very good. Over time, he'll become acceptable out there. It's ok to have one position on the field that doesn't excel defensively, and that position should be left field. His bat in the lineup is clearly worth the few downfalls we'll see from him in the outfield.

signalhome
08-03-2011, 10:07 PM
All because he made one bad play in left field Monday night. Done forever, confirmational bias. Of course Dusty has run Dunn, and Gomes out there without caring about what they look like.

Yep. :thumbup:

Very frustrating.

IslandRed
08-03-2011, 10:23 PM
Before we break out the torches and pitchforks, has anyone insinuated this is for non-emergency use?

Reds/Flyers Fan
08-03-2011, 10:38 PM
Before we break out the torches and pitchforks, has anyone insinuated this is for non-emergency use?

Coming on the day that injury-plagued Scott Rolen has surgery that will keep him out 4-6 weeks and possibly the rest of the season, I doubt it's for emergencies.

LvJ
08-03-2011, 10:38 PM
But then where will we put our longtime star 3B Austin Kearns?

:laugh: I wanted that cannon to play 3rd so badly. Dreams were shattered.

Brutus
08-03-2011, 10:40 PM
Coming on the day that injury-plagued Scott Rolen has surgery that will keep him out 4-6 weeks and possibly the rest of the season, I doubt it's for emergencies.

Or perhaps since they're now down a 3B, possibly for the rest of the season, that's exactly why it's for emergencies.

LoganBuck
08-03-2011, 10:40 PM
Before we break out the torches and pitchforks, has anyone insinuated this is for non-emergency use?

Whichever beat reporter was talking with Marty during second inning said it, and I think they said something about finding at bats. Admittedly I wasn't paying close attention until they said Alonso was taking grounders at third.

alloverjr
08-04-2011, 12:00 AM
Or perhaps since they're now down a 3B, possibly for the rest of the season, that's exactly why it's for emergencies.

They already have 3 guys on their 25 who can play a passable 3B in Cairo, Frazier and Janish, with Francisco out on a rehab assignment now (I believe I heard that correctly). How many third basemen does a team need? The only way I would consider trying Alonso (or Heisey earlier this year) at third would be if Rolen was not coming back next year and they were going to audition him for a permanent gig.

edabbs44
08-04-2011, 07:00 AM
All because he made one bad play in left field Monday night. Done forever, confirmational bias. Of course Dusty has run Dunn, and Gomes out there without caring about what they look like.

How long did Dunn play for Dusty? 4 or so months?

And I really doubt this had much, if anything, to do with his misplay the other night.

Griffey012
08-04-2011, 07:25 AM
From what I heard in the conversation, Alonso went to Miami as a 3rd Basemen. Then moved to first because they had a guy named Ryan Braun playing 3rd. And even Yonder said it has been an easier transition then trying to learn Left Field.

What is so bad about trying to finding more ways to get your top hitting prospect in the batting order when he is blocked by Votto at first. And with the way the season is going we have plenty of time to try Alonso in Left and at 3rd if we want.

I have a really hard time believing this was from Dusty after how much he ran Gomes out there. If it is the case that it was Dusty making Alonso take balls at 3rd over one misplayed ball, than we have a much bigger problem in our organization.

Always Red
08-04-2011, 07:51 AM
Alonso knocked in a run last night and then Arroyo went in to pinch run for him.

I realize that he represented the tying run, but has he proven that he can't run?

And if he can't play in the field, and he can't run, how on earth did he get selected in the 1st round? My guess is the Reds see him mostly as a 1B/DH.

If the Reds are looking to use the asset that is Alonso by trading him, they certainly are not polishing him up. Within the last 2 days, they have shown that they don't think he can play LF, or run the bases.

I'm confused on their approach with Alonso. The guy swings a mean bat, attacks the ball. I hope he doesn't become the next Paul Konerko for the Reds...

cumberlandreds
08-04-2011, 08:00 AM
Thinking about Yonder Alonso at 3rd base gives me flashbacks to Dan Driessen playing 3rd base back in the early to mid 70's. Not a good idea.

RANDY IN INDY
08-04-2011, 09:19 AM
Tony Perez had a stint at 3rd in the late 60's, early 70's. He played third for the 1970 National League Champs as Lee May played first. Tony was not a good third baseman,

MikeS21
08-04-2011, 09:21 AM
I have feeling this is nothing more than having another warm body that can be a part of a double switch. And if playing 3B every now and then can get Alsonso another 3-4 AB's, I'm fine with it.

chicoruiz
08-04-2011, 09:25 AM
Fun out-of-the-box idea: Rotate Alonso and Frazier at 3b and LF depending on the hitter: Frazier plays LF against guys with pop, and 3b against guys who are a threat to bunt.

It's just crazy enough to work...

IslandRed
08-04-2011, 10:12 AM
I realize that he represented the tying run, but has he proven that he can't run?

He represented the tying run with two outs in the ninth in a game that felt about as must-win as anything we've had this season. We needed a guy who could score on a double. Alonso runs like a first baseman. Arroyo is faster. I don't think there's anything much to debate there.

IslandRed
08-04-2011, 10:16 AM
I have feeling this is nothing more than having another warm body that can be a part of a double switch. And if playing 3B every now and then can get Alsonso another 3-4 AB's, I'm fine with it.

Could be. I mean, if he can play first base, he can pick up ground balls hit at him... if he can also throw the ball to first base, then he could play third in a pinch. Not permanently, or primarily, but in a pinch. If the white flag is being prepared and we're about to slip into garbage time where we really don't care if he butchers a play here and there if it means getting him some extra at-bats, then... whatever. :cool:

_Sir_Charles_
08-04-2011, 10:33 AM
Before we break out the torches and pitchforks, has anyone insinuated this is for non-emergency use?

This is what I was thinking. But they've got 3 options right now without Rolen. Cairo, Frazier and Janish. I'm not sure what the need would be for a 4th guy.

Sea Ray
08-04-2011, 11:33 AM
Just because he's taking balls there doesn't mean we'll see him there in a starting lineup. That remains to be seen

Guacarock
08-04-2011, 11:40 AM
Alonso knocked in a run last night and then Arroyo went in to pinch run for him.

I realize that he represented the tying run, but has he proven that he can't run?

And if he can't play in the field, and he can't run, how on earth did he get selected in the 1st round?

The more important question: Can he bunt?

REDREAD
08-04-2011, 01:09 PM
Before we break out the torches and pitchforks, has anyone insinuated this is for non-emergency use?

That's what I think too. This is for emergency use only.. Much like when Ramon took groundballs at 3b, and Freel practiced at Catcher.
Alonso will never get a start at 3b as long as there's a healthy infielder.

PuffyPig
08-04-2011, 01:24 PM
Alonso knocked in a run last night and then Arroyo went in to pinch run for him.

I realize that he represented the tying run, but has he proven that he can't run?



You said it, he represented the tying run.

Arroyo often pinch runs when the game is on the line.

It has nothing to do with "proving he can't run".

He took a few ground balls at third, everyone needs to stop freaking out. It doesn't mean he'll never play first or LF ever again.

Caveat Emperor
08-04-2011, 01:39 PM
Did someone make an Austin Kearns joke already?

OK, good. Just checking.

Scrap Irony
08-04-2011, 01:42 PM
I'll say the same thing I said about Young and Kearns long ago:

If he can play the position passably, his bat makes him extremely intriguing. A 300/375/475 3B is a perennial All-Star and probable Hall of Fame member. A 1B with that same line is simply above average.

The key is whether he can play the position passably. It gives me hope that he's played it before. And 3B and 1B are similar in reaction time. Alonso has shown an accurate arm with a fairly quick release, at least in LF.

Too, with Cozart at SS and Phillips at 2B, is a Gold Glove needed at the hot corner? I'd argue that Alonso could drop a -8 WAR at third and still be a great move.

Captain Hook
08-04-2011, 06:04 PM
Maybe they're just trying to get Voto to volunteer to try to play some OF.I'd make sure Joey is watching every time Alonso practices just in case he thinks he can do any better.

Always Red
08-04-2011, 07:38 PM
Maybe they're just trying to get Voto to volunteer to try to play some OF.I'd make sure Joey is watching every time Alonso practices just in case he thinks he can do any better.

Lately, I wonder if Yonder might play a better 1B than Joey.

But Votto sure is heating up with the bat. :thumbup:

thatcoolguy_22
08-05-2011, 12:35 AM
I might be one of the few, but I hope this 3B idea works. It makes more sense than him in LF. Next season with Rolen back, he can start 3 of 7 games spelling Votto some as well. It would take pressure off of WJ to find a LF and let him focus on upgrading the rotation with the prospects.

Let him play and see what happens.

Slyder
08-05-2011, 01:28 AM
I might be one of the few, but I hope this 3B idea works. It makes more sense than him in LF. Next season with Rolen back, he can start 3 of 7 games spelling Votto some as well. It would take pressure off of WJ to find a LF and let him focus on upgrading the rotation with the prospects.

Let him play and see what happens.

Would Aramis Ramirez be a comp to Yonder if this 3b thing is more than the Reds doing due diligence in an attempt to try and find Yonder more consistant ABs?

thatcoolguy_22
08-05-2011, 01:45 AM
Would Aramis Ramirez be a comp to Yonder if this 3b thing is more than the Reds doing due diligence in an attempt to try and find Yonder more consistant ABs?

I think that would be accurate. I would put Yonder down for an 800ish OPS with below average defense. Well spotted. With his hitting potential, this could be a huge WAR surplus for the next few years. This is exactly the type of risk a mid market team like the Reds needs to succeed long term.

REDSEER
08-07-2011, 03:39 PM
Thom mentioned during the broadcast today that, during a conversation he had with Alonso, that Yonder mentioned that he played 3B his whole life until he got to Miami, and the only reason he played 1B there is because Danny Valencia (now with the Twins) wasn't comfortable at third. He said he still considers himself a third baseman.

I'm sure a lot of that is Yonder vying for some PT, but maybe he wouldn't be as bad as we think...?

dougdirt
08-07-2011, 03:42 PM
Thom mentioned during the broadcast today that, during a conversation he had with Alonso, that Yonder mentioned that he played 3B his whole life until he got to Miami, and the only reason he played 1B there is because Danny Valencia (now with the Twins) wasn't comfortable at third. He said he still considers himself a third baseman.

I'm sure a lot of that is Yonder vying for some PT, but maybe he wouldn't be as bad as we think...?

Maybe. Maybe not. High school third base is a whole lot different than pro third base. But, playing first base at the pro level probably does help some. It isn't like he hasn't seen a liner or 100 pulled to him at first.

nate
08-07-2011, 03:45 PM
If Yonder can play 3B (make the "if" as large as your disbelief suspension requires) passably, that would be, shall we say, huge.

REDSEER
08-07-2011, 03:45 PM
Maybe. Maybe not. High school third base is a whole lot different than pro third base. But, playing first base at the pro level probably does help some. It isn't like he hasn't seen a liner or 100 pulled to him at first.

Absolutely. And color me skeptical about Alonso's ability to come in and make a barehanded play and throw the ball to first on the run.

dougdirt
08-07-2011, 03:48 PM
Absolutely. And color me skeptical about Alonso's ability to come in and make a barehanded play and throw the ball to first on the run.

Yeah. I am still thinking its a long shot. First and third are two very different position. At first, you play deeper on most plays. You don't often have to make the coming in bare handed play as you noted.

Will M
08-08-2011, 12:35 AM
i know this is an unpopular opinion but i think the Reds would be a better team going forward if Votto played LF & Alonso played 1B. no trade is needed to get a middle of the order bat: just use Alonso. no need to put up with Alonso's poor defense in left: he plays 1B.

then spend the offseason trying to package Grandal, Wood/Volquez & Stubbs/Sapplet for the best starter we can find.

Guacarock
08-08-2011, 01:09 AM
i know this is an unpopular opinion but i think the Reds would be a better team going forward if Votto played LF & Alonso played 1B. no trade is needed to get a middle of the order bat: just use Alonso. no need to put up with Alonso's poor defense in left: he plays 1B.

then spend the offseason trying to package Grandal, Wood/Volquez & Stubbs/Sapplet for the best starter we can find.

I'm not so sure Reds fans would oppose that solution. In fact, it would likely be wholeheartedly embraced by the public if presented in the right way. The solution does recall the heyday of the Big Red Machine when some of our best players, including Rose and Perez, agreed to move around the diamond to allow us to get our most powerful bats into the lineup.

The toughest sell wouldn't be the public, but Joey Votto. I get the distinct impression he doesn't want to move off 1B. He is more athletic than Alonso and did play some LF at Louisville, but he wasn't particularly adept out there. So Votto's apprehension might not just be an ego thing, but grounded on a legitimate fear of failing.

The other wrinkle with this solution: If we want the best starter we can find, we can't just restrict our offer to Grandal, a CF and one of our pitching suspects. Let's say a decent SP is available this off-season, and the team willing to trade that pitcher doesn't need a CF, or a C, or even a pitcher. What if they really are hankering to acquire a power bat, and specifically a 1B? Should we automatically declare Alonso off-limits for discussion purposes? I don't think so, not if the return warrants including him into the package.

At this point, we have to stay open to the possibilities, but also recognize that it's time to begin sorting out the keepers from those we might be open to deal from our apparent areas of surplus:

C -- Mesoraco or Grandal
1B -- Votto or Alonso
CF -- Stubbs or Sappelt
SP -- Wood or Volquez, or in the right higher-end deal, Leake or Bailey

Guacarock
08-08-2011, 01:27 AM
We had a fifth area of surplus, with both Francisco and Frazier vying for the right to caddy for Rolen in 2012. But now we might need both of them if Rolen decides to retire or can't bounce back from his chronic shoulder problem.

It's also probably not an ideal time to deal Francisco, seeing as how he's freshly off the DL himself, and his trade value can't be at its peak. The long and short of it: I wouldn't focus this winter on sorting out the Frazier and Francisco competition, and wouldn't be inclined to move either one. But you never say never, especially if it allowed us to hold onto another trading chip (say Grandal) we valued more highly.

Will M
08-08-2011, 01:36 AM
I'm not so sure Reds fans would oppose that solution. In fact, it would likely be wholeheartedly embraced by the public if presented in the right way. The solution does recall the heyday of the Big Red Machine when some of our best players, including Rose and Perez, agreed to move around the diamond to allow us to get our most powerful bats into the lineup.

The toughest sell wouldn't be the public, but Joey Votto. I get the distinct impression he doesn't want to move off 1B. He is more athletic than Alonso and did play some LF at Louisville, but he wasn't particularly adept out there. So Votto's apprehension might not just be an ego thing, but grounded on a legitimate fear of failing.

The other wrinkle with this solution: If we want the best starter we can find, we can't just restrict our offer to Grandal, a CF and one of our pitching suspects. Let's say a decent SP is available this off-season, and the team willing to trade that pitcher doesn't need a CF, or a C, or even a pitcher. What if they really are hankering to acquire a power bat, and specifically a 1B? Should we automatically declare Alonso off-limits for discussion purposes? I don't think so, not if the return warrants including him into the package.

At this point, we have to stay open to the possibilities, but also recognize that it's time to begin sorting out the keepers from those we might be open to deal from our apparent areas of surplus:

C -- Mesoraco or Grandal
1B -- Votto or Alonso
CF -- Stubbs or Sappelt
SP -- Wood or Volquez, or in the right higher-end deal, Leake or Bailey


We had a fifth area of surplus, with both Francisco and Frazier vying for the right to caddy for Rolen in 2012. But now we might need both of them if Rolen decides to retire or can't bounce back from his chronic shoulder problem.

It's also probably not an ideal time to deal Francisco, seeing as how he's freshly off the DL himself, and his trade value can't be at its peak. The long and short of it: I wouldn't focus this winter on sorting out the Frazier and Francisco competition, and wouldn't be inclined to move either one. But you never say never, especially if it allowed us to hold onto another trading chip (say Grandal) we valued more highly.

i generally agree with you. the only 2 starters i wouldn't deal are Cueto & Leake. i'd move Bailey in the right deal only because of his injury history.

i like what i have seen so far from Frazier. the last 7 weeks of the season should hopefully tell us something about guys like him, Alonso, Sappelt, Cozart (when he gets better), etc. then we can plan for 2012.

Eric_the_Red
08-08-2011, 10:53 AM
Are the doubts about Yonder at thrid due to his size, glove, arm, all of the above or something else?

I think if he can play first, then he should be able to field at third. His arm would be the concern there.

But if Pablo Sandoval (5'11", 246 lb) and Scott Rolen (6'4", 245 lb) can play third at their size, then I think size isn't Alonso's problem (6'2", 240 lb).

Besides, how many chances did EE get to prove that he wasn't cut out for third? I'd give Alonso a shot at least, provided he isn't too dreadful out there. I'd like to see what he could do with Rolen there another year to teach him the ropes.

Nasty_Boy
08-08-2011, 12:45 PM
His build reminds me of Ty Wigginton

OnBaseMachine
08-08-2011, 03:28 PM
From John Fay:

Alonso taking balls at third. Looks OK. Not making throws, however. #reds

http://twitter.com/#!/johnfayman

osuceltic
08-08-2011, 04:19 PM
From John Fay:

Alonso taking balls at third. Looks OK. Not making throws, however. #reds

http://twitter.com/#!/johnfayman

This cracks me up.

CTA513
08-08-2011, 04:21 PM
From John Fay:

Alonso taking balls at third. Looks OK. Not making throws, however. #reds

http://twitter.com/#!/johnfayman

Maybe hes going to be the 1st ever 3rd baseman that never throws the ball?

:D

Redsfan320
08-08-2011, 04:46 PM
Maybe hes going to be the 1st ever 3rd baseman that never throws the ball?

Maybe he could use the pitcher as a cut-off man? ;)

320

CTA513
08-08-2011, 05:17 PM
Alonso done in left, on to third
4:58 pm, Aug 8, 2011 by jfay

It sounds like the Yonder Alonso experiment in left field is over and the Yonder Alonso experiment at third base is about to begin.

Asked if Alonso would play left again, Dusty Baker said: “Not in the near future.”

Alonso had a rough time of it in his three starts in the left field on the road trip. He missed played three balls and made an error.

Alonso was at Great American Ball Park early taking balls at third base. He may eventually play there, but, again, not in the near future.

“You don’t want to do it in the big leagues,” Baker said. “But that’s the position he started at. It’s an mirror image of first base really. You get more plays. Most first baseman are at first base because they’re left-handed or they don’t have the arm to play third.

“We’ll see. We’re trying to find the best place to get his bat in the lineup.”


http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2011/08/08/alonso-done-in-left-on-to-third/

KronoRed
08-08-2011, 05:44 PM
Next stop: Catcher ;)

Caveat Emperor
08-08-2011, 06:09 PM
Over under on how many times he gets bunted at during his first game?

Tom Servo
08-08-2011, 06:11 PM
Doesn't really seem fair to completely judge Alonso on two misplays in Chicago given all of the playing time and bad plays/routes made by Gomes over the better part of 3 seasons.

_Sir_Charles_
08-08-2011, 06:16 PM
Maybe hes going to be the 1st ever 3rd baseman that never throws the ball?

:D

Why not. Everytime he gets a hit, they pinch run for him. Pinch thrower? :O)

REDSEER
08-08-2011, 06:38 PM
According to Fay, we won't be seeing Alonso as the regular first baseman for at least 2 years.


Votto hasn’t been asked about a move

“I think I’m a pretty good first baseman,” Votto said. “And I think one the best attributes as a team is infield defense. We have four very good — and obviously as second and third — great defenders.”

That answers that.

Caveat Emperor
08-08-2011, 06:53 PM
According to Fay, we won't be seeing Alonso as the regular first baseman for at least 2 years.

If Alonso can hit, and there are deals like Votto for Bautista out there to be made, I don't know that you'll have to wait that long to see Yonder manning 1st.

alloverjr
08-08-2011, 07:17 PM
If Dusty is not going to play him at any position, why not send him back to AAA to play 3B, or LF, or Pitcher, or whatever. This season's lost. If he sits the bench, how can you judge what you have in game conditions?

And if Votto sees himself as a good defender, he should watch some tape.

Will M
08-08-2011, 07:57 PM
IMO the Reds management has made some pretty stupid moves this season. Yonder will NEVER be an adequate major league third baseman. lets see. he looks like a DH who we hope will be ok at 1B. we try him in left but he's not athletic enough. so we...try him at 3B!

if i ran the team one of 3 things would happen between now and opening day:
1. Votto is traded
2. Alonso is traded
3. Votto moves to LF & Alonso plays 1B.

Always Red
08-08-2011, 08:11 PM
IMO the Reds management has made some pretty stupid moves this season. Yonder will NEVER be an adequate major league third baseman. lets see. he looks like a DH who we hope will be ok at 1B. we try him in left but he's not athletic enough. so we...try him at 3B!

if i ran the team one of 3 things would happen between now and opening day:
1. Votto is traded
2. Alonso is traded
3. Votto moves to LF & Alonso plays 1B.

IMO, the FO is looking like an amateur outfit with the way they are handling Yonder Alonso. He hasn't changed, he is the same player they wanted and drafted. And boy can he hit.

Hal McRae comes to mind. Good stick, and he couldn't play in the field.

It's far too soon to give up on Alonso in LF. He had no errors out there this year in Louisville.

#3 is not going to happen- Votto said as much today.

I don't have enough faith in Alonso's stick yet to trade a sure thing for the next 2 years in Votto.

My problem with the FO is this: why are they intent in proving to everyone that Alonso is a defensive liability everywhere, especially given Dusty's comments today that Alonso is done in LF, thus lessening any value in a trade? It just doesn't seem to be a very intelligent use of what is/was a rather large asset.

I see a trade coming to an AL team.

kaldaniels
08-08-2011, 08:30 PM
Would the Reds be better as a team if Votto was in LF and Alonso was at 1B? I've been on record saying that if Votto doesn't want to move, he doesn't have to. But that speaks volumes about how Pujols was willing to move to 3B for a bit this season. I can't and won't rip Votto for not giving LF a shot as he has earned the starting 1B job, but man I would give him a standing ovation if he tried it.

Again, wouldn't the Reds be better if that was the end result?

nate
08-08-2011, 08:42 PM
If Dusty is not going to play him at any position, why not send him back to AAA to play 3B, or LF, or Pitcher, or whatever. This season's lost. If he sits the bench, how can you judge what you have in game conditions?

And if Votto sees himself as a good defender, he should watch some tape.

I see Votto as a good defender.

IslandRed
08-08-2011, 08:45 PM
My problem with the FO is this: why are they intent in proving to everyone that Alonso is a defensive liability everywhere, especially given Dusty's comments today that Alonso is done in LF, thus lessening any value in a trade? It just doesn't seem to be a very intelligent use of what is/was a rather large asset.

I see a trade coming to an AL team.

I don't think any other club in baseball was under the illusion that Alonso was suited to play anywhere other than first base. Nor have I seen reputable sources say he can't play first base. But he can't play first base, here, now, and the reason wears number 19. So they're just trying to find him at-bats at other positions while doing the least possible damage afield.

In that respect, the risk-reward here is his performance at the plate. If he hits like a first baseman, no problem, that's what he is. If he doesn't, problem. So far so good on this score.

signalhome
08-08-2011, 09:51 PM
I see Votto as a good defender.

UZR also sees Votto as a good defender. 4.6 UZR this year, 12.5 UZR for his career.

CTA513
08-09-2011, 01:12 AM
Would the Reds be better as a team if Votto was in LF and Alonso was at 1B? I've been on record saying that if Votto doesn't want to move, he doesn't have to. But that speaks volumes about how Pujols was willing to move to 3B for a bit this season. I can't and won't rip Votto for not giving LF a shot as he has earned the starting 1B job, but man I would give him a standing ovation if he tried it.

Again, wouldn't the Reds be better if that was the end result?

The Cardinals have a proven player while the Reds have a rookie and that experiment didn't last long.

kaldaniels
08-09-2011, 01:17 AM
The Cardinals have a proven player while the Reds have a rookie and that experiment didn't last long.

But you realize Albert did not have to do it, and if he didn't want to we would have never have even known about it. I'm just saying while it is not a negative that Joey doesn't entertain the notion of playing left field, if he tried it (or even mentioned that he would do it if Dusty asked him to) it would earn him an extra star in my book.

And I would ask that since you responded to my comment, answer the question that I posed, feelings aside, would the Reds be fielding a better team if Votto played LF and Alonso manned 1B? I say yes, though I realize politics are involved, no ones fault on that.

CTA513
08-09-2011, 01:29 AM
But you realize Albert did not have to do it, and if he didn't want to we would have never have even known about it. I'm just saying while it is not a negative that Joey doesn't entertain the notion of playing left field, if he tried it (or even mentioned that he would do it if Dusty asked him to) it would earn him an extra star in my book.

And I would ask that since you responded to my comment, answer the question that I posed, feelings aside, would the Reds be fielding a better team if Votto played LF and Alonso manned 1B? I say yes, though I realize politics are involved, no ones fault on that.

Better hitting team but we don't know if Votto can play left or how good or bad Alonso is at 1st.
It could end up hurting the Reds defensively at 2 spots instead of 1.

My guess is that Votto might be willing to make the move but only if he can work on playing left in the offseason instead of likely embarrassing himself by trying to learn a new position during the season.

Ron Madden
08-09-2011, 05:28 AM
I don't believe Alonso will ever be an above average defender in LF. But...

Is three games a fair trial?

If so, why did they waste all that time playing him there in Louisville?

What did they see in those three games that they didn't or couldn't see in all those games in AAA?

Seems like a failure to communicate and an awful waste of developmental time to me.

wlf WV
08-09-2011, 07:16 AM
I don't believe Alonso will ever be an above average defender in LF. But...

Is three games a fair trial?

If so, why did they waste all that time playing him there in Louisville?

What did they see in those three games that they didn't or couldn't see in all those games in AAA?

Seems like a failure to communicate and an awful waste of developmental time to me.
This .FO and management are coming apart at the seams,at least it appears somebody is not on the same page.

edabbs44
08-09-2011, 07:36 AM
I don't believe Alonso will ever be an above average defender in LF. But...

Is three games a fair trial?

If so, why did they waste all that time playing him there in Louisville?

What did they see in those three games that they didn't or couldn't see in all those games in AAA?

Seems like a failure to communicate and an awful waste of developmental time to me.

Probably a few things. Maybe they hoped he could be passable in LF for a month or two while getting his bay in the lineup. Due to how the games play out, a poor fielder can sometimes seem not awful. But he looked like a clown at times out there. Hard to justify.

The oter thing to factor is the Rolen surgery. They are probably just trying to see if they can get his bat in the lineup somewhere as kong as he isnt embarrassing himself.

Cooper
08-09-2011, 12:26 PM
I believe strongly that good teams have their 3rd base situation resolved. It's always the bad teams that try to squeeze 3 guys into the position in the hopes that something will work out.

I'm paraphrasing James but he said something along the lines of "the yankees would play a guy at 3rd, become frustrated, sit him down and then try him again in 2 weeks to see if he learned how to play it by watching from the bench".

Their are numerous options in LF, but finding a solution at 3rd takes time and energy. It takes some teams 70 years to figure out 3rd. This is the most important everyday position the team needs to address and i fear they're gonna try "3 guys and the frustrations" (sounds like a band name).

westofyou
08-09-2011, 02:28 PM
Tony Perez made 30 errors a few times at 3rd, just brutal.

Alonso has impressed with his bat, some crazy stuff in the 70 pitches he's seen.


Pitches Seen
70

Taken
37 - 53%

Swung At
33 - 47%

Pitches Taken

Taken for a Strike
7 - 19%

Called a ball
30 - 81%

Swung At

Missed
4 - 12%

Fouled Off
13 - 39%

Put in Play
16 - 48%

westofyou
08-09-2011, 02:34 PM
Their are numerous options in LF, but finding a solution at 3rd takes time and energy. It takes some teams 70 years to figure out 3rd. This is the most important everyday position the team needs to address and i fear they're gonna try "3 guys and the frustrations" (sounds like a band name).


In the Bill James Historical Abstract, James goes into great detail recanting the woes of the Dodgers to find a third baseman over the years, he touches the great White Sox washout between Willie Kamm and Robin Ventura and tells of the Mets woes in finding a steady contributor at the hot corner since their inception in the early 1960’s.

What he doesn’t touch on is the Reds utter and complete lack of a history at 3rd base, at least one that isn’t fraught with odd tales, odd balls and converts. Even Rob Neyer (unknowingly) notes the lack of solid candidates for the Reds all time team (in his Big Book of Baseball Lineups) when he names Billy Werber as the Reds #2 third sacker of all time. Werber played a grand total of 399 games as a Red in three seasons, as many as Leo Durocher did, a man most forget was a Red much alone a player on some of the worst Reds teams of all time. In Reds history both are tied for 136th in games played by non-pitchers, hardly enough time spent to be considered as an “all time” Red.

Simply put the Reds history at 3rd base is a freak show, a Carney act that is a wonder to look at in several different ways, to start I’m going to look at games played as the first benchmark. That’s where I got my first surprise, and by compiling a list of the top ten Reds 3rd basemen in games played I found a whole other laundry list of minutia that interested me.

Below is the list of the top games played in by Reds 3rd sackers, since they entered the American Association in 1882.


GAMES G OPS
1 Heine Groh 955 .106
2 Hick Carpenter 892 -.021
3 Chris Sabo 818 .056
4 Harry Steinfeldt 806 .001
5 Tony Perez 792 .138
6 Grady Hatton 758 .006
7 Arlie Latham 696 -.020
8 Aaron Boone 668 .007
9 Babe Pinelli 648 -.078
10 Pete Rose 645 .100

To start we’re going to look at the number of games played, 1000 games played and divided by 154 would be 6.5 seasons, the Reds are led by Heine Groh (a converted 2nd basemen) and his games played stands at 955 games.

The Reds are the only franchise that isn’t an expansion team that doesn’t have a 3rd basemen with 1000 games played. In fact some franchises (Giants, Phillies, Yankees and Red Sox) have three players with at least 1000 games played at 3rd base. A few teams even have players with 2000 games played at third base.

But not the Reds, they have a leader who last played for the team in 1921, 86 years ago, a player who in classic Reds fashion became too expensive to keep and thus was sent off to a team in a bigger city, with the biggest checkbook.

Second on the list is one of the greatest anomalies of the Reds (and perhaps the games long and storied history) In this case we are talking about Hick Carpenter, the man who played third for the team when they were in the American Association.

Like Heine, Hick was on a championship team (1882 Reds) unlike Heine Hick played without a glove and unlike almost every man in the history of the game Hick played over 1000 games at 3rd bas

Even furthering this madness is the fact that the Reds have only three players that exceeded 100 games played at 3rd base 6 times in their Reds career, and none have played since the spitball was abolished.

http://baseballminutia.com/blog/2007/06/06/reds-history-third-base-what-a-mess/

dougdirt
08-09-2011, 03:52 PM
Matt Andrews, Bats radio announcer, is on with Lance McAllister on 1530 right now. Said that Alonso was ok in left for Louisville. Surprised that Dusty has thrown in the towel on it right now. Doesn't believe that its a thing that is over forever though because he didn't think Alonso was truly that bad out there. Not good, but not terrible.

edabbs44
08-09-2011, 05:34 PM
Matt Andrews, Bats radio announcer, is on with Lance McAllister on 1530 right now. Said that Alonso was ok in left for Louisville. Surprised that Dusty has thrown in the towel on it right now. Doesn't believe that its a thing that is over forever though because he didn't think Alonso was truly that bad out there. Not good, but not terrible.

Well, if Matt Andrews said it...

Sorry, that's too easy.

dougdirt
08-09-2011, 05:41 PM
Well, if Matt Andrews said it...

Sorry, that's too easy.

Well if someone makes a decision based on 3 games....

Sorry, that's too easy.

RANDY IN INDY
08-09-2011, 05:54 PM
I think Dusty and Walt are at odds.

edabbs44
08-09-2011, 05:58 PM
Well if someone makes a decision based on 3 games....

Sorry, that's too easy.

Doubtful it was only based on 3 games.

RedsManRick
08-09-2011, 06:00 PM
I think Dusty and Walt are at odds.

That certainly seems to be the case. Walt wants to start looking forward while Dusty is loathe to signal that the season is functionally over. He's said it numerous times in some format that this isn't AAA and he's going to play the guys who he has the most confidence in. Sure, he'll give lip service to playing them, but he's not going to do so at the expense of a vet who has "earned' his spot.

I sympathize with Dusty. I can only imagine how hard it must be to try and keep guys motivated in the dog days of August when the playoffs are out of reach. And it must be harder still when you're just close enough that there's still a glimmer of hope. But frankly, that's part of the job. The Alonso things strikes me as Dusty not wanting to look Fred Lewis in the eye and say "sorry, we're going to play this young, converted 1B out there instead of you because your'e not a part of our future". Part of the way he keeps things upbeat is by avoiding conflict. That works well when things are optimistic. Not so much when it's time for change.

dougdirt
08-09-2011, 06:02 PM
Doubtful it was only based on 3 games.

The Bats seemed just fine trotting Alonso out in left all season. That suggests Rick Sweet and the minor league coaches/coordinators thought he wasn't the worst left fielder in the history of the game. Dusty has seen Alonso out there three times and his mind is already made up despite what the minor league guys who have seen him a bunch more apparently have thought about him out there.

Caveat Emperor
08-09-2011, 06:08 PM
The Bats seemed just fine trotting Alonso out in left all season. That suggests Rick Sweet and the minor league coaches/coordinators thought he wasn't the worst left fielder in the history of the game.

Or, they were under marching orders to trot Alonso out there every night no matter what it looked like because the parent club was attempting to see if he could play there.

KronoRed
08-09-2011, 06:13 PM
Or, they were under marching orders to trot Alonso out there every night no matter what it looked like because the parent club was attempting to see if he could play there.

*DINGDINGDING*

Rick Sweet isn't trying to win a championship, he's trying to keep his job.

Always Red
08-09-2011, 06:14 PM
I think Dusty and Walt are at odds.

Me too

dougdirt
08-09-2011, 06:16 PM
Or, they were under marching orders to trot Alonso out there every night no matter what it looked like because the parent club was attempting to see if he could play there.

Perhaps. But I didn't see him as being brutal out there. Not good. But not anywhere near what some seem to think he is like out there who are basing their opinions on three games. Seems that Matt Andrews who watched him every day in Louisville thinks the same way.

edabbs44
08-09-2011, 06:25 PM
Perhaps. But I didn't see him as being brutal out there. Not good. But not anywhere near what some seem to think he is like out there who are basing their opinions on three games. Seems that Matt Andrews who watched him every day in Louisville thinks the same way.

Thom is/was a huge Gomes fan out in LF.

dougdirt
08-09-2011, 06:29 PM
Thom is/was a huge Gomes fan out in LF.

That is true.

Here is what I know though.... when the Reds traded Gomes, the GM said it was to make room for Alonso. The fact that the manager has now said that isn't happening after 3 games is pretty telling about the disconnect somewhere. Somewhere between the minor league coaches/coordinators, the GM and the manager, something is getting crossed up pretty well.

edabbs44
08-09-2011, 06:40 PM
That is true.

Here is what I know though.... when the Reds traded Gomes, the GM said it was to make room for Alonso. The fact that the manager has now said that isn't happening after 3 games is pretty telling about the disconnect somewhere. Somewhere between the minor league coaches/coordinators, the GM and the manager, something is getting crossed up pretty well.

Or is it telling about how bad his performance out there was? Not only during tha games, but maybe while getting some extra work out there with the staff. And then they just prayed he could be passable while getting his bat in the lineup for a few weeks. And then he was just murder out there.

dougdirt
08-09-2011, 06:45 PM
Or is it telling about how bad his performance out there was? Not only during tha games, but maybe while getting some extra work out there with the staff. And then they just prayed he could be passable while getting his bat in the lineup for a few weeks. And then he was just murder out there.

I don't think if he were that bad all the time, or even often, that they would have continued to run him out there in Louisville. I watched him play 50 times this year in left field (give or take 5 games). I don't recall him looking close to that bad in any stretch during that time.

Maybe I am wrong, but this is the same crew that took Todd Frazier off of second base because he couldn't handle it.

lollipopcurve
08-09-2011, 06:59 PM
The Alonso things strikes me as Dusty not wanting to look Fred Lewis in the eye and say "sorry, we're going to play this young, converted 1B out there instead of you because your'e not a part of our future". Part of the way he keeps things upbeat is by avoiding conflict. That works well when things are optimistic. Not so much when it's time for change.

Agree 100%. Not sure Baker is the best guy to move this team forward with a younger cast.

Cooper
08-09-2011, 10:21 PM
Maybe the biggest issue is Dusty's declaration. He didn't leave himself any out or wiggle room so now if he does want to put him back out there it makes the issue even bigger than it already is.

It was a silly thing to say and it didn't help solve any problems: Dusty got to feel strongly about his stmt but he cornered himself during the time of the season when cornering yourself is silly. He lost his temper- plain and simple.

osuceltic
08-09-2011, 11:18 PM
That certainly seems to be the case. Walt wants to start looking forward while Dusty is loathe to signal that the season is functionally over. He's said it numerous times in some format that this isn't AAA and he's going to play the guys who he has the most confidence in. Sure, he'll give lip service to playing them, but he's not going to do so at the expense of a vet who has "earned' his spot.

I sympathize with Dusty. I can only imagine how hard it must be to try and keep guys motivated in the dog days of August when the playoffs are out of reach. And it must be harder still when you're just close enough that there's still a glimmer of hope. But frankly, that's part of the job. The Alonso things strikes me as Dusty not wanting to look Fred Lewis in the eye and say "sorry, we're going to play this young, converted 1B out there instead of you because your'e not a part of our future". Part of the way he keeps things upbeat is by avoiding conflict. That works well when things are optimistic. Not so much when it's time for change.

It's not just Fred Lewis he has to look in the eye. It's every pitcher who goes out there with Alonso on skates behind him. It's every other player out there still grinding and trying to win. It's not September. It's early August. There's a lot of season left. You can't send the signal that we're having extended tryouts. It's a disservice to everyone else in that clubhouse -- not to mention the fans buying tickets.

Baseball has this wonderful minor league system for developing players. The big leagues are about winning games.

I wonder how many here who are crucifying Dusty for this actually believe Alonso has any kind of future at all in left field. My guess is not many. They just want to see him hit and, since they've decided the results of the games don't matter anymore, they're willing to sacrifice defense along the way. Dusty can't operate that way.

Redszone's constant outcry for the next great thing is out of control. I'm already seeing the pitchforks coming out for Votto in order to make room for Alonso. The insinuations about his defense at first, his "selfishness" and everything else. There are arguments to be made for trading Votto, but they all involve his contract and pricetag.

dougdirt
08-09-2011, 11:23 PM
I wonder how many here who are crucifying Dusty for this actually believe Alonso has any kind of future at all in left field. My guess is not many. They just want to see him hit and, since they've decided the results of the games don't matter anymore, they're willing to sacrifice defense along the way. Dusty can't operate that way.


Teams operate that way all the time. They do it every season. To pretend otherwise is burying your head in the sand.

mth123
08-09-2011, 11:46 PM
It's not just Fred Lewis he has to look in the eye. It's every pitcher who goes out there with Alonso on skates behind him. It's every other player out there still grinding and trying to win. It's not September. It's early August. There's a lot of season left. You can't send the signal that we're having extended tryouts. It's a disservice to everyone else in that clubhouse -- not to mention the fans buying tickets.

Baseball has this wonderful minor league system for developing players. The big leagues are about winning games.

I wonder how many here who are crucifying Dusty for this actually believe Alonso has any kind of future at all in left field. My guess is not many. They just want to see him hit and, since they've decided the results of the games don't matter anymore, they're willing to sacrifice defense along the way. Dusty can't operate that way.

Redszone's constant outcry for the next great thing is out of control. I'm already seeing the pitchforks coming out for Votto in order to make room for Alonso. The insinuations about his defense at first, his "selfishness" and everything else. There are arguments to be made for trading Votto, but they all involve his contract and pricetag.

I agree with this. I'm guessing the organization made this decision and not Dusty alone.

membengal
08-10-2011, 06:54 AM
It's not just Fred Lewis he has to look in the eye. It's every pitcher who goes out there with Alonso on skates behind him. It's every other player out there still grinding and trying to win. It's not September. It's early August. There's a lot of season left. You can't send the signal that we're having extended tryouts. It's a disservice to everyone else in that clubhouse -- not to mention the fans buying tickets.

Baseball has this wonderful minor league system for developing players. The big leagues are about winning games.

I wonder how many here who are crucifying Dusty for this actually believe Alonso has any kind of future at all in left field. My guess is not many. They just want to see him hit and, since they've decided the results of the games don't matter anymore, they're willing to sacrifice defense along the way. Dusty can't operate that way.

Redszone's constant outcry for the next great thing is out of control. I'm already seeing the pitchforks coming out for Votto in order to make room for Alonso. The insinuations about his defense at first, his "selfishness" and everything else. There are arguments to be made for trading Votto, but they all involve his contract and pricetag.

Just out of curiosity, what fan is buying a ticket to see Fred Lewis?

redsfandan
08-10-2011, 07:37 AM
Just out of curiosity, what fan is buying a ticket to see Fred Lewis?

Dustys daughter?

edabbs44
08-10-2011, 07:56 AM
Teams operate that way all the time. They do it every season. To pretend otherwise is burying your head in the sand.

They play guys at positions who look as bad as Alonso in LF?

osuceltic
08-10-2011, 08:02 AM
Just out of curiosity, what fan is buying a ticket to see Fred Lewis?

They're buying tickets to see the Reds win. Alonso stumbling around in LF game after game doesn't help.

hebroncougar
08-10-2011, 08:09 AM
They're buying tickets to see the Reds win. Alonso stumbling around in LF game after game doesn't help.

Neither does watching Arroyo give up dinger after dinger, or watching Gomes in LF, or watching Renteria play SS while Janish is on 2b or 3b, but Dusty doesn't mind that......

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk

lollipopcurve
08-10-2011, 08:46 AM
IMO, Alonso is not as bad as he looked in the games in Wrigley. On the ball he misplayed badly, he stepped on a sprinkler head and that disrupted his approach to the ball. Watch the replay -- it's clear he would have played the ball differently if not for that.

I don't buy that Stubbs and Bruce need to be in there every single day, given that both guys have not shown improvement this year. Sappelt can play all 3 spots, so move him around and work Alonso into the LF rotation now and then. Give him a start or two at 3B to see how that goes, too. The Cards went outside the box to play Pujols there -- why can't the Reds experiment? The kid has earned a shot to do more than pinch hit. Meanwhile guys like Bruce and Stubbs should get the message that they need to consider doing what's necessary in order to improve, because there are good ballplayers behind them.

The team needs some shaking up, because what they've assumed would be an improved bunch has not delivered. If that's not Baker's style, they need to find somebody who can manage that way when necessary.

OnBaseMachine
08-12-2011, 04:00 PM
From Tom Groeschen:


– The third base education of Yonder Alonso continued today. Scott Rolen worked with Alonso in some pre-game drills today on the field at Great American Ball Park. Coach Chris Speier supervised and also hit grounders to Alonso, who was on the field about four hours before tonight’s scheduled first pitch.



http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2011/08/12/cozart-has-surgery/

lollipopcurve
08-12-2011, 04:47 PM
– The third base education of Yonder Alonso continued today. Scott Rolen worked with Alonso in some pre-game drills today on the field at Great American Ball Park. Coach Chris Speier supervised and also hit grounders to Alonso, who was on the field about four hours before tonight’s scheduled first pitch.

This is encouraging. However, it remains to be seen if Baker will actually let Alonso on the field at 3B. It's well-known Dusty likes Juan Francisco, and he's healthy again, playing 3B every day at Louisville.

klw
08-12-2011, 04:49 PM
Fay asks Why not Louisville?

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2011/08/12/how-about-alonso-at-3b-in-louisville/


Yonder Alonso continues to work out at third base during pre-game drills, but he is not getting any playing time there. Manager Dusty Baker was asked today whether the Reds have considered sending Alonso to play some third base for Triple-A Louisville.

“There’s a chance we discussed that,” Baker said. “You’d rather do it there than here.”

klw
08-12-2011, 07:20 PM
Yes, Alonso is blocked at first base by Joey Votto. But the Reds still balked at including Alonso in a Jimenez package, and they still project Alonso as a special bat. So with Votto's long-term future in Cincinnati a very large question mark, the Reds' quest isn't to find somebody to trade this guy to. It's to find a place Alonso can play as long as Votto is hanging out at first.http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/page/rumblings110812/mlb-postseason-problems-revisited

RedsManRick
08-12-2011, 10:33 PM
Frazier's been flashing some glove at 3B.

dougdirt
08-12-2011, 11:36 PM
Frazier's been flashing some glove at 3B.
Despite not playing there much, the Reds brass has always maintained that he could play the position just fine and since they knew he could, they let Francisco play there since Frazier could also play elsewhere.

Will M
08-13-2011, 01:52 AM
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/page/rumblings110812/mlb-postseason-problems-revisited

this is characteristic of the Reds. Votto can (or will) only play 1B. So they tried Alonso in LF. OK sounds good. Reports from AAA on his 'glove' in left were not good. So whats the plan now? Have him pinch hit for the next 6-7 weeks? Then try again during spring training?? It seems to me that the Reds management needs a plan other than 'we'll see how it all works out'. If Alonso really can only play 1B then some trade needs to be made. Alonso can't pinch hit for 2 years just to keep him around until Votto leaves. Strike that, he could but I'd prefer that he not do that.

Ron Madden
08-13-2011, 04:40 AM
Maybe it would be best to call Francisco up and send Alonso down to play 3B everyday until they can recall him in September, then send him to AFL to worrk at 3B.

redsfandan
08-16-2011, 06:35 PM
Apparently Alonso never played 3rd when he was at Miami. Just heard that on WLW.

Hopefully he does better in left tonight.

_Sir_Charles_
08-16-2011, 07:06 PM
Apparently Alonso never played 3rd when he was at Miami. Just heard that on WLW.

Hopefully he does better in left tonight.

From everything I've read, he played it alot in high school...not college. He moved off it in college because they had somebody else on that team who fit at third better or something along those lines.

Cooper
08-16-2011, 07:11 PM
a bad fielding 3rd baseman just kills ya. even if he hits. i rarely ever make a stmt not based on some sabermetric analysis--but i have never seen a team overcome a bad fielding 3rd baseman (i'm talking in the bottom 25%). it's as if the position becomes representative of the teams weaknesses. 3rd takes on a life of it's own, an almost synergystic effect. yonder would be in the bottom 25% fielding.

mth123
08-16-2011, 07:42 PM
a bad fielding 3rd baseman just kills ya. even if he hits. i rarely ever make a stmt not based on some sabermetric analysis--but i have never seen a team overcome a bad fielding 3rd baseman (i'm talking in the bottom 25%). it's as if the position becomes representative of the teams weaknesses. 3rd takes on a life of it's own, an almost synergystic effect. yonder would be in the bottom 25% fielding.

Reds history says maybe a team can. The 1970 Reds went to the World Series with a poor fieding Tony Perez there. The 1975 and 1976 Reds were pretty good with an out of position, poor throwing Pete Rose there.

chicoruiz
08-16-2011, 07:49 PM
i have never seen a team overcome a bad fielding 3rd baseman

Tony Perez in 1970 comes to mind of course, as does Bob Horner, a blob of protoplasm who stood in the area of 3b for some pretty good Atlanta teams. But the biggest exception to the rule would have to be Jim Ray Hart, who played with some very successful Giant teams in the '60s. Jim Ray was probably in the bottom 1% defensively of third basemen in modern history.

I agree with the general premise, though. A third baseman who can't field the bunt and make an accurate throw is a soul-killer to watch. And every ground ball to their right that they can't get is two bases. It used to be a defense-first position like shortstop.

Redhook
08-16-2011, 08:01 PM
I can't believe how bad the Reds are butchering the Yonder and Aroldis situations right now. It's a damn shame. Leave Yonder if LF and let him learn. Start stretching Aroldis out. It's not that hard. It's really isn't.

Sea Ray
08-18-2011, 11:58 AM
We don't need sabermetrics or reports from 40 yrs ago to know what a bad fielding 3B looks like. We saw plenty of it with Edwin E and Brandon Larson. I think we have to expect Yonder to be even worse. Is that going to be palatable?

Superdude
08-18-2011, 01:07 PM
I can't believe how bad the Reds are butchering the Yonder and Aroldis situations right now. It's a damn shame. Leave Yonder if LF and let him learn. Start stretching Aroldis out. It's not that hard. It's really isn't.

It's really frustrating to watch this organization stuff issues to the back of the closet instead of addressing them. The way Jocketty and Baker talk, you'd think Chapman is just gonna show up one day, after two years in the bullpen, and throw 200 innings. We'll be lucky to get one full season out of him before his contract is up.

And no one seems to have any idea what to do with Alonso besides suggesting unrealistic positions for him to play. Some semblance of a plan regarding anything would be really nice to see.

Cooper
08-18-2011, 01:42 PM
Teams may get by for a season or two, but the decision begins to fester. They wonder if they can get by with someone better or different. 5 times out of 10 it begins to mess with the mind of the guy playing 3rd and eventually hurts his bat.

I thought Rose was bad too but then i re-watched some games from 75 and 76 and he is not near as bad as a thought. Granted he got by on guts and paste, but he made the plays he was supposed to. I've seen Pete Rose play 3rd and Yonder is no Pete Rose.

Chip R
08-18-2011, 02:22 PM
Teams may get by for a season or two, but the decision begins to fester. They wonder if they can get by with someone better or different. 5 times out of 10 it begins to mess with the mind of the guy playing 3rd and eventually hurts his bat.

I thought Rose was bad too but then i re-watched some games from 75 and 76 and he is not near as bad as a thought. Granted he got by on guts and paste, but he made the plays he was supposed to. I've seen Pete Rose play 3rd and Yonder is no Pete Rose.

Rose was originally an infielder and he was tried several seasons before at 3rd before stating he didn't want to play there. So he had professional experience in the infield plus he had one of the brightest baseball minds and work ethics there was. Yonder may work hard and be a bright guy but guys like Rose don't grow on trees. Yonder has a better chance at being a passable LFer than a 3B.

TRF
08-18-2011, 04:51 PM
Speaking of Easy E... Is there a hitter hotter than Encarnacion since the ASB? He's white hot right now.

lollipopcurve
08-18-2011, 04:57 PM
Speaking of Easy E... Is there a hitter hotter than Encarnacion since the ASB? He's white hot right now.

On fire. As a DH.

TRF
08-18-2011, 05:01 PM
On fire. As a DH.

there is talk of moving him to LF. Wish the Reds had the sense to think of that. the difference between Edwin and Yonder in the field, well, Edwin would likely be a decent LF. maybe above average.

klw
08-18-2011, 05:06 PM
Speaking of Easy E... Is there a hitter hotter than Encarnacion since the ASB? He's white hot right now.
Not many.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/split/182/sort/OPS/order/true/minpa/100

lollipopcurve
08-18-2011, 05:07 PM
there is talk of moving him to LF. Wish the Reds had the sense to think of that. the difference between Edwin and Yonder in the field, well, Edwin would likely be a decent LF. maybe above average.

I figure if he'd make an above average outfielder it would have been tried by now. I'll believe Edwin can play the field regularly when I see it.

TRF
08-18-2011, 05:42 PM
I figure if he'd make an above average outfielder it would have been tried by now. I'll believe Edwin can play the field regularly when I see it.

well, he's got a cannon for an arm, but properly throwing across the diamond from 3B is a bit more challenging than throwing home from LF. As a defender, getting to balls, Encarnacion was, IMO, cat like. very quick. He's a good athlete, has some decent speed too.

And think about this, he's healthy. His wrists were injured two years ago, and he finally seems healthy. He went from the NL Central to the AL East and got better as a hitter. Who does that? Since the ASB, he's been a better hitter than the reigning NL MVP in a tougher division.

He's only 28, and at this point in say, Nelson Cruz's career, he hadn't posted nearly the numbers Edwin has. Some guys bloom late.

edabbs44
08-18-2011, 06:04 PM
Ridiculous stat of the year: Edwin has 2 HR and 5 RBI in 191 away PAs this season. Maybe the man in white doesn't travel?

klw
08-18-2011, 06:24 PM
Ridiculous stat of the year: Edwin has 2 HR and 5 RBI in 191 away PAs this season. Maybe the man in white doesn't travel?

Nah Adam Dunn v. lefties is hard to beat.

By Breakdown AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB HBP SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
vs. Left 80 3 3 0 0 0 2 16 1 36 0 0 .038 .206 .038 .244

Ron Madden
08-19-2011, 05:10 AM
I bet Edwin has put up offensive numbers as good or pretty close to those that Rolen has produced since the trade.

edabbs44
08-19-2011, 07:56 AM
I bet Edwin has put up offensive numbers as good or pretty close to those that Rolen has produced since the trade.

I bet we are still in a playoff drought if Edwin was still on the team.

TRF
08-19-2011, 09:43 AM
I bet we are still in a playoff drought if Edwin was still on the team.

I bet there is zero chance you could actually prove that. Rolen was hot the first half and pretty cold after the break. Edwin was the opposite. Rolen was light years better in the field, but put Edwin in LF instead of Gomes... well maybe there is something to that idea.

Always Red
08-19-2011, 09:48 AM
I bet Edwin has put up offensive numbers as good or pretty close to those that Rolen has produced since the trade.

True, but he's not playing 3B much at all.

Everyone knows Edwin can hit- that wasn't his real problem here with the Reds, or why he was traded to an AL team.

TRF
08-19-2011, 09:56 AM
Ryan Braun moved from 3B to LF.

Edwin would be a better defender than Braun in LF. Not saying he has the same bat, but EE looks to be on one of his half season tears. right now, he's one of the top 2 hitters in the game since the break, #1 in the AL.

Alex Gordon also made this move, and he's finally hitting. Perhaps, just perhaps that particular position isn't so demanding.

Sea Ray
08-19-2011, 10:07 AM
I bet there is zero chance you could actually prove that. Rolen was hot the first half and pretty cold after the break. Edwin was the opposite. Rolen was light years better in the field, but put Edwin in LF instead of Gomes... well maybe there is something to that idea.

There's very little to sports that can be "proven" but so what? I couldn't "prove" 5 years ago that Adam Dunn wasn't going to the Hall of Fame but my projection differed from others here. That's what we do as fans

TRF
08-19-2011, 12:12 PM
fine. i disagree. I think EE's production, which was similar to Rolens for the year in 2010, and has FAR exceeded his production in 2011 says he'd have been more valuable. Cairo, Frazier, Francisco and even Janish could have rotated at 3B this year and last with EE in LF. They'd have made the playoffs last year and would have had a better overall offense this year.