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Reds1
08-06-2011, 05:06 PM
Jay Bruce! He's actually not had a very good season. His numbers basically came from one month. I don't have the stats to back it up, but I watch every game and he really seems to under perform in the clutch. I know he's young and yada yada yada, but I am trying to figure out why this team of seemingly talented young players continues to lose to some of the worst teams in baseball.

any thoughts?

OldXOhio
08-06-2011, 05:09 PM
I think his season has been ok. Not great, not really bad either. Had he not made the strides he did in the 2nd half of last year, perhaps none of us would be concerned. I just expected bigger things out of him in 2011.

Kc61
08-06-2011, 05:17 PM
I think his season has been ok. Not great, not really bad either. Had he not made the strides he did in the 2nd half of last year, perhaps none of us would be concerned. I just expected bigger things out of him in 2011.

Wishful thinking. The guy had a fabulous May but since then has been non-productive.

Put me down as one who thinks a real cleanup hitter would do wonders for Bruce. The guy is too young and, yes, still raw to constantly be up in the pressure at bats.

Put a real cleanup hitter between Votto and Bruce and I think Jay will do much better.

When and if the Reds fix their team and have a real leadoff hitter and a real cleanup hitter, I think Bruce will be ok.

As for Stubbs, I'm more concerned.

OldXOhio
08-06-2011, 05:21 PM
Wishful thinking. The guy had a fabulous May but since then has been non-productive.

Put me down as one who thinks a real cleanup hitter would do wonders for Bruce. The guy is too young and, yes, still raw to constantly be up in the pressure at bats.

Put a real cleanup hitter between Votto and Bruce and I think Jay will do much better.

When and if the Reds fix their team and have a real leadoff hitter and a real cleanup hitter, I think Bruce will be ok.

As for Stubbs, I'm more concerned.

Probably fair to say he's just not ready to be THE guy in the lineup, perhaps in another year or two. Agree that a true clean up hitter in front of him would help. Don't know how any of the team's decision makers can't see the need, but then again, it was there going into this season and the last as well.

SirFelixCat
08-06-2011, 05:56 PM
I know that we had this very same discussion last year and everyone yelled at me saying "he's still young"...how many more seasons does he get that excuse?

1 red-hot month and a whole lot of blech prior & after....

Ghosts of 1990
08-06-2011, 06:19 PM
He's been really bad. You don't even want to know his numbers if you don't include May. It just doesn't make sense. I don't understand also why Dusty won't put him hitting 2nd rather than guys like Renteria and Janish when the last time it happened it started the huge hot streak in May. Hit him in front of Votto. Just such an obvious thing that I can't even understand why Dusty won't do it.

I'm very, very concerned about Jay Bruce. We were told he would be so much more and he has not been. I don't think he'll ever hit .290, drive in 100 runs, or hit 30 home runs in a season. That's what he's shown me this year. Never have I wanted a guy to succeed so much but I'm not going to lie to myself, it's just not working out.

cincrazy
08-06-2011, 06:33 PM
He's been really bad. You don't even want to know his numbers if you don't include May. It just doesn't make sense. I don't understand also why Dusty won't put him hitting 2nd rather than guys like Renteria and Janish when the last time it happened it started the huge hot streak in May. Hit him in front of Votto. Just such an obvious thing that I can't even understand why Dusty won't do it.

I'm very, very concerned about Jay Bruce. We were told he would be so much more and he has not been. I don't think he'll ever hit .290, drive in 100 runs, or hit 30 home runs in a season. That's what he's shown me this year. Never have I wanted a guy to succeed so much but I'm not going to lie to myself, it's just not working out.

Even if he can't consistently sustain those numbers, he can still be a hell of a ballplayer. It's not Jay's fault he's being relied upon to do too much on this current team. It magnifies his struggles.

mth123
08-06-2011, 06:44 PM
Even if he can't consistently sustain those numbers, he can still be a hell of a ballplayer. It's not Jay's fault he's being relied upon to do too much on this current team. It magnifies his struggles.

Yep. The GM built a team that needed Bruce to be an MVP contender to succeed. Merely pretty good isn't good enough.

Ghosts of 1990
08-06-2011, 06:57 PM
He hasn't been 'pretty good' though, that's the thing. He's been pretty bad. He's hit .235 other than May with minimal power and barely any RBI's.

cincrazy
08-06-2011, 07:02 PM
He hasn't been 'pretty good' though, that's the thing. He's been pretty bad. He's hit .235 other than May with minimal power and barely any RBI's.

I wouldn't say pretty bad. You can't act like May never happened. True, he's been extremely inconsistent. But there are a ton of teams that would kill to have Jay Bruce starting in right field.

Jose Bautista, Jayson Werth, Nelson Cruz, .... are were guys who didn't break out until later. Bruce has been MUCH better than any of those three were at his age. Even Adrian Gonzalez didn't have a productive season until age 24, whereas Bruce has already had a couple. He's a heck of a player, even considering his struggles, and I think it's sad so many have to leap to his defense so often around here.

We rushed Paul O'Neill out of town, and how'd that end up? With 56,000 fans in Yankee Stadium chanting "Paulie, Paulie" as one of the most celebrated RFs in Yankee history wound his career up in yet another big World Series moment.

Tony Cloninger
08-06-2011, 07:29 PM
I wouldn't say pretty bad. You can't act like May never happened. True, he's been extremely inconsistent. But there are a ton of teams that would kill to have Jay Bruce starting in right field.

Jose Bautista, Jayson Werth, Nelson Cruz, .... are were guys who didn't break out until later. Bruce has been MUCH better than any of those three were at his age. Even Adrian Gonzalez didn't have a productive season until age 24, whereas Bruce has already had a couple. He's a heck of a player, even considering his struggles, and I think it's sad so many have to leap to his defense so often around here.

We rushed Paul O'Neill out of town, and how'd that end up? With 56,000 fans in Yankee Stadium chanting "Paulie, Paulie" as one of the most celebrated RFs in Yankee history wound his career up in yet another big World Series moment.


They did not rush Paul out of town. he did it himself. He started from 1988-1992....and could never figure out if he should hit for power, average or both.

He was a hothead who could not seem to get it together in his hometown.

Bowden may have made a bad trade after the fact but Paul had his own issues...in his head. For some reason he relaxed more in NYC than he did in Cincy.

He barely acts like he ever played here now.

cincrazy
08-06-2011, 08:15 PM
They did not rush Paul out of town. he did it himself. He started from 1988-1992....and could never figure out if he should hit for power, average or both.

He was a hothead who could not seem to get it together in his hometown.

Bowden may have made a bad trade after the fact but Paul had his own issues...in his head. For some reason he relaxed more in NYC than he did in Cincy.

He barely acts like he ever played here now.

Paul went out of his head for the very same reason Jay might go out of his head. An inpatient fan base that wants the next big star RIGHT NOW. Young players take time to develop. Paul leaving wasn't all the Reds fault, but I'd give them the majority of the blame for sure.

edabbs44
08-06-2011, 08:25 PM
Yep. The GM built a team that needed Bruce to be an MVP contender to succeed. Merely pretty good isn't good enough.

Most teams would have considered Jay to be that legit second big bat in the lineup this season. Smaller mkt teams need to work that way. The mythical middle of the order bat generally isn't available to those teams on demand.

But shifting the blame somehow to the FO for Jay's struggles is kind if ridiculous. He is a former #1 prospect in baseball. Expecting more than what we have seen is very warranted.

cincrazy
08-06-2011, 08:27 PM
Most teams would have considered Jay to be that legit second big bat in the lineup this season. Smaller mkt teams need to work that way. The mythical middle of the order bat generally isn't available to those teams on demand.

But shifting the blame somehow to the FO for Jay's struggles is kind if ridiculous. He is a former #1 prospect in baseball. Expecting more than what we have seen is very warranted.

The guy is still very young. It's one thing to hope for a breakout season, but to absolutely know it's coming? This game offers no such guarantees in regards to young players. Jocketty has been involved in the game long enough to where he should understand that.

cincrazy
08-06-2011, 08:28 PM
The team more or less went into the season banking on the fact that all of their young players would "take the next step." That's a recipe for disaster if you ask me. I wasn't asking for the HUGE, splashy move in the offseason. But he made absolutely no moves whatsoever to better this club in anyways other than dumpster diving. It's a lack of creativity and passivity, and quite frankly it's inexcusable for a small market team.

dougdirt
08-06-2011, 08:32 PM
Bruce has had two bad months, a great month and a good month. Inconsistent, yes. Bad? No.

edabbs44
08-06-2011, 08:37 PM
Bruce has had two bad months, a great month and a good month. Inconsistent, yes. Bad? No.

That "good" month had about 40 pts of OBP due to 4 IBBs. He also had 3 HR and 12 RBI that month. I wouldn't really call it a "good" month, especially for what he should be doing. That should really be kind of a general baseline for a guy with his talent.

edabbs44
08-06-2011, 08:39 PM
The guy is still very young. It's one thing to hope for a breakout season, but to absolutely know it's coming? This game offers no such guarantees in regards to young players. Jocketty has been involved in the game long enough to where he should understand that.

It's not like they went all in on the guy. When you have players like him, you sometimes have to take a chance on the breakout season especially after Aug/Sept 2010. It's almost like complaining that Walt was a fool for expecting Votto to produce at a high level this season.

RedsManRick
08-06-2011, 08:42 PM
1. Yeah, he's still young. Just because people get annoyed by waiting doesn't change that.

2. He's put up the 12th highest WAR among RF, per Fangraphs. But more to the point, while he's at 2.7, only half are above 3.0.

People can cut it any way they want to, but he's had a "good" season objectively speaking. Was it good relative to expectations? No. But he's been an above average RF.

Mario-Rijo
08-06-2011, 08:42 PM
Take Jose Bautista's situation for example he said he finally got the proper instruction to make the necessary changes to become who he has currently an offensive juggernaut. Some guys simply never make these adjustments when they are right there in front of them. Jay is one of those guys who hasn't yet done it mostly because he is so hell bent on being productive instead of doing the things necessary to be productive, he keeps putting the cart before the horse. His issues are mostly all approach and mechanics.

But I have faith in the kid because A.) he wants it bad enough and B.) he's a worker. But we don't always get what we want when we want it and it's gonna happen on Jay's timetable and no one else's. However clearly Dusty and Jacoby (his 2 hitting coaches) aren't getting thru to him, and one can only speculate as to why. Perhaps something needs to change there like what happened with Bryan Price and the young pitchers.

cincrazy
08-06-2011, 09:31 PM
It's not like they went all in on the guy. When you have players like him, you sometimes have to take a chance on the breakout season especially after Aug/Sept 2010. It's almost like complaining that Walt was a fool for expecting Votto to produce at a high level this season.

I just don't see that comparision. Votto had an MVP season. And he was a stud before that season. Bruce was, and is, clearly still learning. Fact is, the guy may never develop into a star. How many of the thousands and thousands of baseball players that have ever played actually have? Even if he's not a star and doesn't "meet the hype," I'm glad to have him on my baseball team.

edabbs44
08-06-2011, 09:32 PM
I just don't see that comparision. Votto had an MVP season. And he was a stud before that season. Bruce was, and is, clearly still learning. Fact is, the guy may never develop into a star. How many of the thousands and thousands of baseball players that have ever played actually have? Even if he's not a star and doesn't "meet the hype," I'm glad to have him on my baseball team.

I don't think that many people are unhappy with him being on the roster.

Reds1
08-06-2011, 09:34 PM
Ironically, people are upset about Stubbs too and he has more hits then Bruce. I think we just got a big tease of what is hopefully to come from Bruce. There is a lot of blame to go around about this 2011 team on why we are not succeeding, but the outfield inconsistency all around has been a big part of the Reds this year. Both Stubbs and Bruce are awesome fielders though that make you be able to wait, but that's 2 spots in your top 5 hitters that this year have missed too many opportunities and a big reason the rest have lost so many 1 run games.

edabbs44
08-06-2011, 09:37 PM
Since Jay hit his OPS high water mark of .941 on June 3rd, here are his numbers:

212 PAs, 4 HR, 17 RBI, .228/.325/.370

Not good.

cincrazy
08-06-2011, 09:40 PM
Since Jay hit his OPS high water mark of .941 on June 3rd, here are his numbers:

212 PAs, 4 HR, 17 RBI, .228/.325/.370

Not good.

That can't be argued. It's a very poor stretch, and color me as one that believes his inconsistency really kills this team.

I have no doubts that his performance this year is a big part of the reason we're underachieving. My main point is, I think it's sad that it reached that point. If this lineup didn't have black sinkholes at third, short, and left, and sometimes center, his performance wouldn't look nearly as awful.

Big Klu
08-06-2011, 09:58 PM
Paul went out of his head for the very same reason Jay might go out of his head. An inpatient fan base that wants the next big star RIGHT NOW. Young players take time to develop. Paul leaving wasn't all the Reds fault, but I'd give them the majority of the blame for sure.

I have to agree with Tony C. on this one. The Reds were very patient with O'Neill. He was given five years as the Reds' regular RF (age 25-29), and it didn't look like he was ever going to be more than what he was. I don't think he was ever looked upon as "the next big star", but as a solid starter in the OF--certainly not a deal-breaker. When the Reds (incorrectly, IMO) determined that Reggie Sanders (who WAS supposed to be "the next big star") had no future in CF, they had to make room for him in RF, and also had to find a new CF. Roberto Kelly was not a bad target, as he had been a highly-regarded prospect in the Yankees organization, and they had a surplus in CF with Bernie Williams coming through the system as well. However, the trade did not work out well for the Reds (even though Kelly was an All-Star his first year in Cincinnati), as O'Neill thrived in the Bronx to an extent that I don't think anyone could have predicted. I don't believe that O'Neill ever would have achieved that level of success in Cincinnati, though--sometimes a player really does need a change in scenery, and Cincinnati may have been too close to his hometown of Columbus.

Personally, I would have preferred to have kept O'Neill, and played Sanders in CF, as the 1993 lineup was too RH-heavy. (Sound familiar?) Hal Morris and the switch-hitting Bip Roberts were the only left-handed hitters in the starting lineup. But I wasn't broken up by the trade, as I had seen Kelly play for the Clippers and expected a little more out of him than what the Reds actually got.

edabbs44
08-06-2011, 10:16 PM
That can't be argued. It's a very poor stretch, and color me as one that believes his inconsistency really kills this team.

I have no doubts that his performance this year is a big part of the reason we're underachieving. My main point is, I think it's sad that it reached that point. If this lineup didn't have black sinkholes at third, short, and left, and sometimes center, his performance wouldn't look nearly as awful.

The only issue is that those positions didn't nearly have the expectations that RF had for this team. Those positions don't have a top talent in his mid 20s playing there.

While it is true that those positions have hurt the team, I think everyone saw those as potential issues. Jay is a different animal.

nate
08-06-2011, 10:16 PM
Ironically, people are upset about Stubbs too and he has more hits then Bruce.

Stubbs has 111 hits in 492 PA
Bruce has 105 hits in 451 PA


I think we just got a big tease of what is hopefully to come from Bruce. There is a lot of blame to go around about this 2011 team on why we are not succeeding, but the outfield inconsistency all around has been a big part of the Reds this year. Both Stubbs and Bruce are awesome fielders though that make you be able to wait, but that's 2 spots in your top 5 hitters that this year have missed too many opportunities and a big reason the rest have lost so many 1 run games.

Bruce has a .352 wOBA, 2nd best on the team amongst qualified batters.

Stubbs has a .326 wOBA which is a little below average but pretty much in the middle for what an MLB CF should produce.

Homer Bailey
08-06-2011, 10:22 PM
He's been really bad.

I could say "Jay Bruce is the best player in baseball" and be closer to telling the truth than this statement.

cincrazy
08-06-2011, 10:33 PM
I have to agree with Tony C. on this one. The Reds were very patient with O'Neill. He was given five years as the Reds' regular RF (age 25-29), and it didn't look like he was ever going to be more than what he was. I don't think he was ever looked upon as "the next big star", but as a solid starter in the OF--certainly not a deal-breaker. When the Reds (incorrectly, IMO) determined that Reggie Sanders (who WAS supposed to be "the next big star") had no future in CF, they had to make room for him in RF, and also had to find a new CF. Roberto Kelly was not a bad target, as he had been a highly-regarded prospect in the Yankees organization, and they had a surplus in CF with Bernie Williams coming through the system as well. However, the trade did not work out well for the Reds (even though Kelly was an All-Star his first year in Cincinnati), as O'Neill thrived in the Bronx to an extent that I don't think anyone could have predicted. I don't believe that O'Neill ever would have achieved that level of success in Cincinnati, though--sometimes a player really does need a change in scenery, and Cincinnati may have been too close to his hometown of Columbus.

Personally, I would have preferred to have kept O'Neill, and played Sanders in CF, as the 1993 lineup was too RH-heavy. (Sound familiar?) Hal Morris and the switch-hitting Bip Roberts were the only left-handed hitters in the starting lineup. But I wasn't broken up by the trade, as I had seen Kelly play for the Clippers and expected a little more out of him than what the Reds actually got.

I'll give both of you the benefit of the doubt on this. I'm not old enough to remember the 1990 team, so I'm a bit out of my league when it comes to this discussion :).

dougdirt
08-07-2011, 12:18 AM
Player A at age 24: 125 OPS+
Jay Bruce at age 24: 122 OPS+ (coming into today, it probably went up slightly with a 1-3, 2B, BB day).

Player A (highlight the next selection to see who it is): ____Joey Votto____.

kaldaniels
08-07-2011, 12:25 AM
Player A at age 24: 125 OPS+
Jay Bruce at age 24: 122 OPS+ (coming into today, it probably went up slightly with a 1-3, 2B, BB day).

Player A (highlight the next selection to see who it is): ____Joey Votto____.

Let me save some people some effort.

"But Doug, this is Jay's 4th year in the big leagues"

:D

Reds1
08-07-2011, 01:18 AM
Stubbs has 111 hits in 492 PA
Bruce has 105 hits in 451 PA



Bruce has a .352 wOBA, 2nd best on the team amongst qualified batters.

Stubbs has a .326 wOBA which is a little below average but pretty much in the middle for what an MLB CF should produce.

One is a leadoff hitter and the other is the run producer in the 5 hole.

stubbs has scored 16 more runs scored and IMO has played a better defensive outfield. Not what I was expecting this year. Stubbs gets 2 more years of service and compare numbers and I hope he's blowing away bruce

nate
08-07-2011, 01:26 AM
One is a leadoff hitter and the other is the run producer in the 5 hole.

I have no idea what this has to do with my comment. I was making two points:

1. It's a bit silly to compare hits between players with such a different number of PAs.

2. Bruce accumulates hits at a higher rate than Stubbs.

That their manager has no idea how to correctly utilize these two player's strengths is no fault of theirs.

mth123
08-07-2011, 01:36 AM
One is a leadoff hitter and the other is the run producer in the 5 hole.

stubbs has scored 16 more runs scored and IMO has played a better defensive outfield. Not what I was expecting this year. Stubbs gets 2 more years of service and compare numbers and I hope he's blowing away bruce

Stubbs is already 26. Bruce is 24. One or both of these guys may still improve, but its more likely Bruce than Stubbs. Currently, Stubbs is speed and defense away from being Jonny Gomes. He's a very splitty lefty killer who has occassional power, poor contact and huge K numbers. He's below average in both OBP and Slugging percentage. He has value because he can play CF with those numbers and be a bottom of the order contributor, but he doesn't have the OBP to lead-off and his low BA holds his slugging numbers down too much for him to be a run producer. He'd need to improve a lot to simply be what Bruce already is.

corkedbat
08-07-2011, 02:55 AM
Bruce is very streaky. I expect another torrid sreak the last month and a half of the season to givee hm a midseadingly good-looking final line.

Eric_the_Red
08-07-2011, 08:18 AM
This thread is Redzone's groundhog day. Instead of "I Got You, Babe", it is "Aside from when he is hot, Jay Bruce isn't very good."

http://blog.incontextmultimedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/groundhog_day.jpg

Is Jay Bruce in danger of becoming the next Dunn here?

Reds1
08-07-2011, 09:22 AM
I think everyone pretty much agrees - Dusty uses them wrong and both have underperformed and a big contributor to this years losing season. Both show signs of greatness and both play great defense. For sure they are worth playing, but as I look at this VERY disappointing season I was trying to figure out what happened and as I continually watch these games Bruce seems to be up in a key situation and does not come through.

But, don't get me wrong - I don't blame him. Heck, look at our starting pitching and inconsistent bull pen, injuries with Rolen have been huge with no back up at 3B. ON and ON, but that's another thread. Thanks for the observations.

cumberlandreds
08-07-2011, 09:37 AM
Bruce is an extremely streaky player. There have been many MLB players over the years that have made a good living playing streaky. Many have that one great season that they put it all together, hitting .300 +, 40 HRs and 120 RBI's. Will Bruce ever do that and will the Reds be able to be patient enough to see if he will do that? I think yes to the first part and no to the 2nd. The Reds will probably give up on him at some point and he will have that one big year elsewhere.

cincrazy
08-07-2011, 09:55 AM
Batting in the 5 hole, what on earth has Bruce had as protection all season long? Not much to keep the pitchers up at night. I'd just as soon see him hitting in the 2 hole so that pitchers have to come at him with Votto on deck. But to me, this exemplifies the team's need for another good bat. After Votto, it's a team full of mistake hitters who good pitchers are going to wipe off the map more often than not.

nate
08-07-2011, 10:17 AM
I think everyone pretty much agrees - Dusty uses them wrong and both have underperformed and a big contributor to this years losing season.

As part of everyone, I don't agree with the second half of that in any way.

The biggest contributor to this year's losing season outside of luck/nature is starting pitching. The second biggest contributor is probably the left side of the offense. To me, the weight of those three elements is something like 50/35/15; Bruce and Stubbs don't even make the edge of the "problem radar."

Roy Tucker
08-07-2011, 11:24 AM
I just think its a mistake for the Reds to depend upon him as a consistent middle-of-the-lineup run producer. I don't think he's there yet. He's underperformed according the the general RZ expectations (including me) but in retrospect, maybe we're expecting too much too soon.

A guy like Votto, you could see the geometric progression of him as a hitter. It was a linear incline of him getting better AB by AB, game by game. But Votto is a very disciplined, very studious, very intelligent, very hard working guy. Not to mentions a Junior-esque gorgeous swing. Bruce seems a little more scatter-shot. More instinctual, more gut feel, less able to make adjustments, and still learning the science of hitting. And I'm not sure he'll ever be the equal of Votto.

Talented? You bet. Good future? I think so. Lead-man-in-the-lifeboat type guy? Not yet. Don't make him be that before he's ready.

Tony Cloninger
08-07-2011, 11:57 AM
Paul went out of his head for the very same reason Jay might go out of his head. An inpatient fan base that wants the next big star RIGHT NOW. Young players take time to develop. Paul leaving wasn't all the Reds fault, but I'd give them the majority of the blame for sure.

He did not nearly the pressure, expectations that Jay was given. They waited 5 years for him to develop and he had Larkin and Davis for every year but 1992 to help shield him from unreasonable expectations.

As far as protection and Dusty using him wrong? If the guy can only hit if he has protection than yes....we sure did overvalue him. No good hitter should always need protection. I did not say great or HOF, i just expect good ... maybe very good but he does not have to be great or one of the best in baseball. He should not always need protection either to hit.

Sure as the Cubs will not win the WS any time soon..... the majority of people will now start the... Baker is using them wrong... reasoning to justify how Bruce and Stubbs are being used.

if anything....Baker has been very patient with them and not buried them.
People would complain if Jay was being batted 6th and sat against more LHP or if Stubbs was buried 7th or 8th. Well he is giving them all the opportunities to bust out and pretty soon that is what will start happening and then of course it will be Baker's fault....or the next manager's fault.
We cannot be blaming the young player and hurting his delicate sensibilities.

edabbs44
08-07-2011, 12:08 PM
Batting in the 5 hole, what on earth has Bruce had as protection all season long? Not much to keep the pitchers up at night. I'd just as soon see him hitting in the 2 hole so that pitchers have to come at him with Votto on deck. But to me, this exemplifies the team's need for another good bat. After Votto, it's a team full of mistake hitters who good pitchers are going to wipe off the map more often than not.

He had the same protection that he had when he was tearing up the league in May.

Tony Cloninger
08-07-2011, 12:09 PM
I'll give both of you the benefit of the doubt on this. I'm not old enough to remember the 1990 team, so I'm a bit out of my league when it comes to this discussion :).


I sound like a know it all. I do remember that Parker was traded for much needed pitching and they felt paul could step in and replace his production close enough...to help the team. Eric D was the one that expectations never were going to be realized. he had the pressure on him a lot more.

edabbs44
08-07-2011, 12:30 PM
As part of everyone, I don't agree with the second half of that in any way.

The biggest contributor to this year's losing season outside of luck/nature is starting pitching. The second biggest contributor is probably the left side of the offense. To me, the weight of those three elements is something like 50/35/15; Bruce and Stubbs don't even make the edge of the "problem radar."

When you more or less get what you expect out of a position, it is difficult to say it is problematic. Which position is more disappointing overall when factoring in expectations? LF, 3B or RF?

Tom Servo
08-07-2011, 01:05 PM
Is Jay Bruce in danger of becoming the next Dunn here?
I think so. The biggest problem with Dunn that people seemed to have is that he wasn't an Albert Pujols or Lance Berkman type of player. Instead of appreciating Dunn for the things he could do, a lot of people hated him for what he couldn't do. He wasn't THAT superstar guy, but he was still a valuable bat to have in the lineup.

mth123
08-07-2011, 01:11 PM
He had the same protection that he had when he was tearing up the league in May.

Not really. His hot streak started when he was hitting second and he put up a 1.004 in the 2 hole for about a weak. Getting good pitches to hit got him going. They moved him back down and it carried over for a while, but after a while he started chasing all the junk he wasn't seeing in the 2 hole with Votto after him.

I really like Bruce a lot, but at this point he's not a main man. He's a very good complementary player. Votto is the only guy who can be a line-up cornerstone now. The Reds need another bat to take the heat and some of these other complementary types will improve with Bruce being the primary beneficiary. This is exactly what many feared when Walt didn't add a bat in the off-season.

Tony Cloninger
08-07-2011, 01:15 PM
I think so. The biggest problem with Dunn that people seemed to have is that he wasn't an Albert Pujols or Lance Berkman type of player. Instead of appreciating Dunn for the things he could do, a lot of people hated him for what he couldn't do. He wasn't THAT superstar guy, but he was still a valuable bat to have in the lineup.

Please....I would love for Bruce to be like Dunn on offense. Already making excuses for him when it ha sot even happened yet is a bad sign.

Ghosts of 1990
08-07-2011, 01:19 PM
Jay Bruce doesn't have anywhere near the power of Adam Dunn. Dunn never had month and two month stretches at a time where he went without homering like Jay does annually. I never had the angst watching Dunn through his time here that I do with Jay now.

Ron Madden
08-07-2011, 01:48 PM
They did not rush Paul out of town. he did it himself. He started from 1988-1992....and could never figure out if he should hit for power, average or both.

He was a hothead who could not seem to get it together in his hometown.

Bowden may have made a bad trade after the fact but Paul had his own issues...in his head. For some reason he relaxed more in NYC than he did in Cincy.

He barely acts like he ever played here now.

I think his biggest problem was Lou Piniella trying to turn him into a power hitter instead of letting him be himself like they did in NY. (JMHO)

dougdirt
08-07-2011, 01:53 PM
Jay Bruce doesn't have anywhere near the power of Adam Dunn. Dunn never had month and two month stretches at a time where he went without homering like Jay does annually. I never had the angst watching Dunn through his time here that I do with Jay now.

That is probably because you never built up Dunn in your mind to be a superstar of superstars.

Also, August is the only month so far that Bruce doesn't have a HR this year.

traderumor
08-07-2011, 01:58 PM
They did not rush Paul out of town. he did it himself. He started from 1988-1992....and could never figure out if he should hit for power, average or both.

He was a hothead who could not seem to get it together in his hometown.

Bowden may have made a bad trade after the fact but Paul had his own issues...in his head. For some reason he relaxed more in NYC than he did in Cincy.

He barely acts like he ever played here now.For the record, Paul O'Neill went to Columbus Brookhaven HS, so he is local, but not hometown. He had a pretty sweet LH jumper.

Big Klu
08-07-2011, 02:16 PM
I think his biggest problem was Lou Piniella trying to turn him into a power hitter instead of letting him be himself like they did in NY. (JMHO)

I also think that Piniella and O'Neill didn't always see eye-to-eye, which is ironic since they were so similar in temperament.

traderumor
08-07-2011, 02:28 PM
I also think that Piniella and O'Neill didn't always see eye-to-eye, which is ironic since they were so similar in temperament.Similar temperaments often clash in the same environment.

BCubb2003
08-07-2011, 08:20 PM
For the record, Paul O'Neill went to Columbus Brookhaven HS, so he is local, but not hometown. He had a pretty sweet LH jumper.

Doesn't he live in Cincinnati now?

dabvu2498
08-07-2011, 10:00 PM
Doesn't he live in Cincinnati now?

Yes. His son is playing for one of the small private schools in town. Seven Hills I think. Scouting reports say the kid is just as quick-tempered as dad was.