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View Full Version : between Sappelt, Frazier, Alonso, Cozart, who's the most impressive?



icehole3
08-08-2011, 05:50 AM
after seeing Frazier throw out a runner from LF the other day I have to go with him good all around game and he's got some serious pop in that bat, has hit nearly everything hard somewhere :)

redsfandan
08-08-2011, 06:51 AM
Frazier or Cozart. Sappelt JUST came up and while Alonso has impressed with the bat, he's also done a nice job showing off his defensive inability. Still, it's a nice situation to finally see these guys showing off what they can do.

buckeyenut
08-08-2011, 07:13 AM
If I am a team out there with a need at DH or 1B, I am drolling over Alonso this offseason. Kid can flat out hit.

That said, Frazier has been a lot more impressive than I anticipated. He could be a great utility guy for this team long term. Not convinced yet he can play every day, but as a utility guy, he adds a lot to the team.

reds1869
08-08-2011, 08:43 AM
Frazier looks like he can be a solid regular, or at worst an upgraded Miguel Cairo. Long term I think Alonso has the highest ceiling of the three. I kind of view it as even between those two at the moment though Cozart and Sappelt look great too.

cumberlandreds
08-08-2011, 08:46 AM
I'll not comment on Sappelt after one game. So I will leave him alone.

Frazier probably is the most impressive to me. He's got some real pop in his bat and he looks comfortable at every position he has played. He could be an extremly valuable member of the Reds from this point forward.

Alonso can flat out hit. No doubt about that. But he's either 1st baseman or a DH. It's apparent LF is just not for him. No foot speed whatsoever and just looks clumsy out there. Not his fault. I'm sure he's trying as hard as he can but if can't play the position then he shouldn't be ask to play it. The Reds have a franchise decision on whether to trade Alonso or Votto. This will be the most interesting thing the Reds do this winter.

Cozart looked really good in short time he received. It's just a terrible break he was injured. He looked smooth in the field and had some good life in his bat. Looks like a better than average SS to me.

The one thing about all of these guys when they came up is that they looked ready to play the MLB level. No deer in the headlights look from any of them. They look like they belong here. That's a credit to the Reds organization as a whole, IMO. Also shows where patience in bringing up players really pays off.

PuffyPig
08-08-2011, 09:11 AM
Alonso has been as advertised. He can hit, his defense LF is very poor, but I'd rather see more.

Sappelt has played one game, no comment.

Cozart has shown zero played discipline, with no walks, so his stats will take a no dive when his BABIP equalizes. His defense has been good, so he's a vialble choice for SS next year as long as don't expect too much hitting.

Frazier has shown a lot of versatilty, not looking out of place at 3B or LF. He's asure bet to make the team next year, and may end up seeing lots of action at 3B if Rolen is injured. A great back up plan.

A really smal sample size, but Frazier has impressed me the most.

lollipopcurve
08-08-2011, 09:47 AM
Sappelt -- For me, the big question is, can he play CF? Not sure we'll get to see much of that. He'll hit. Love him in the leadoff spot.

Cozart -- Solid. Most pleased with his very consistent play on defense and the occasional power. Possible SS solution for several years, pending development of others in the system

Frazier -- Not convinced he's a starter, mostly given what looks like subpar defense at 3B. Deserves to be given a shot to compete with Francisco there. Bat not great, but good enough. Organization might have made the right call in prepping him as a multiposition guy.

Alonso -- Bat looks ready. No Votto, but he'll produce enough to be a legit 1B solution if JV is gone.

All in all, I think the early returns on this crop are very positive, with Mesoraco yet to come.

wlf WV
08-08-2011, 09:53 AM
Sappelt,I saw spring training.Why didn't they come up two months ago when it meant something?Is the only way we see change attrition?( they're always reactive,instead of being proactive)I think Baker's and Jocketty's biggest mistake since winter has been under utilizing the farm,whatever the reason.I still hate having to put draft picks we sign on the 40 man roster.I would rather give them more money.I wish MLB would outlaw it.I don't think it's good for the game,unless you're the prospect.

wlf WV
08-08-2011, 10:12 AM
duplicate.

Reds1
08-08-2011, 10:15 AM
I haven't seen enough of these guys to give a solid answer. It's what you might expect. I like Alonso's AB, but he's had some defensive issues. I like the future of the Reds that should include many of these guys. Sappelt is one that interest me. That catch he made in LF no other fielder would have made that of any of the new guys or starters this year. He also looks good at the plate, but not enough bats to really know much yet. It's exciting to see these guys though. I'm VERY happy we didn't trade all these guys for say a Bourne or even Pence.

Unassisted
08-08-2011, 10:28 AM
Too soon to tell, but Frazier and Cozart have both impressed me about equally so far.

The one thing Sappelt accomplished in one game was to highlight Alonso's defensive shortcomings in LF.

I hope Alonso gets a trial at 3B, since he claims that was his natural position for most of his baseball life.

OesterPoster
08-08-2011, 11:27 AM
Nice article from Frazier's hometown paper yesterday.

http://www.tomsrivernjonline.com/2011/08/07/tr-magazine-exclusive-todd-frazier-talks-about-his-major-league-experience/


Life in the major leagues also means time away from home for Frazier, and he says he misses a lot about the Toms River area. “Food. There’s nothing like Jersey food anywhere else. I also miss the beach and the boardwalk and my family.” he said “When I got sent back down in Philly I took a few days and came back home and went to the beach and had some Seaside boardwalk food. You can’t find Italian food like in New Jersey anywhere else.”

Scrap Irony
08-08-2011, 12:12 PM
I really like Sappelt's short swing and contact bat. His defense also looks to be above average, as well as his leadoff capabilities. Still, way too early to tell. Ask back after September, when he plays both CF and LF enough to gauge.

Alonso can hit, but simply can't play LF. He's cost the Reds around five runs already, a huge number considering the few innings he's logged out there. But his bat is very good. Reminds me of the Hal MacRae situation.

Todd Frazier looks like he has good power. His glove also looks adequate for LF and 1B, but below average for the hot corner. (Slow on shots.) Won't hit with the same BA as either Alonso or Sappelt, but the power is similar. Insurance for Alonso, Stubbs, Bruce, Votto, Rolen, and Sappelt, IMO.

Cozart surprised me the most. Shows very good power for a SS and his BB rate in the minors suggests that will improve as well. Good, short stroke. Solid defensively as well, able to make all the plays.

So far, IMO, the Reds have brought up four legitimate major leaguers with upside and cost certainty. None of them are ill-prepared, nor are they over their heads. There are two and a half above average starters there, with the possibility of a few All-Star nods. This doesn't include the most likely impact bat/ position player nor does it include another 3B who exhibitis a plus hit tool and plus plus power.

This off-season should be interesting, as all six are ready but only four will have spots on the team. That means two go back to AAA for more (uneeded) seasoning, or they get dealt.

bucksfan2
08-08-2011, 12:28 PM
Alonso can hit, but thats about all. He is very slow, pretty poor out in LF, and 1b is still up for debate. I think he profiles more as a DH than anything else.

Nasty_Boy
08-08-2011, 01:30 PM
Alonso does look pretty unsure of himself in LF, which is to be expected when he's only logged a handful of games out there... I played INF through HS and college and ended up playing some OF in a summer league due to an injury, and although I didn't have any Alonso-esque mistakes I felt very uncomfortable. Hopefully the Reds make the right decision on the Alonso-Votto, Frazier-Francisco, Sappelt-Stubbs position log jams... I love Joey Votto and I want him to stay a Red but I can't help but wonder if trading him, say for Bautista and moving Alonso to 1B makes the Reds better in the long run due to contracts. I do know Alonso have been extremely impressive at the plate in a very short amount of time.

traderumor
08-08-2011, 01:31 PM
Glaringly absent from this list are first peeks at pitchers.

IslandRed
08-08-2011, 01:59 PM
Glaringly absent from this list are first peeks at pitchers.

Yep. With the exception of Boxberger, who just got there, every pitcher at AAA with a possible future in Cincinnati is someone we've already seen. If we do the reconfiguring over the offseason we need to do, it wouldn't hurt if we added a couple of high-minors arms in the process.

Tom Servo
08-08-2011, 02:24 PM
Alonso looks to be a very productive everyday player and Fraizer could potentially be a Chone Figgins type in terms of playing most days even if in a different position. Ideally if Sappelt could hit it could give Walt the opportunity to shop Stubbs around (who I like but could potentially be expandable in this scenario) and Cozart would hit 8th and provide good defense in this dream scenario of mine.

dougdirt
08-08-2011, 02:26 PM
Alonso is the most impressive.
Then Sappelt.
Then Cozart and Frazier.

I like them all.

REDblooded
08-08-2011, 02:37 PM
Least impressive?

Walt and Dusty for stubbornly rejecting the notion that these guys could've helped this team 2 months ago.

bucksfan2
08-08-2011, 03:31 PM
Alonso is the most impressive.
Then Sappelt.
Then Cozart and Frazier.

I like them all.

Besides for your love of Reds prospects, what has Alonso done that was impressive? He can hit but thats about it. He can't run or field. After watching him play he looks like a DH to me. For a NL team that isn't impressive.

Roy Tucker
08-08-2011, 05:36 PM
I think Alonso has shown enough as a hitter to say he could be very good. But its difficult to judge his fielding based on some real adventures in LF when he just isn't a LF. I'd like to see him at 1B to see him field at a position where he's really been trained.

IslandRed
08-08-2011, 05:48 PM
I agree. Even if it's granted he's a bad left fielder, it doesn't logically follow that he's a bad first baseman also.

Scrap Irony
08-08-2011, 06:07 PM
He's not just a bad LF, he's horrid.

I cannot imagine how poor his UZR would be if given a "real chance" in the OF.

He simply cannot play out there.

He'd have to go 950 OPS to even make it plausible, where other options are available.

Sappelt's LF D would be well above average (perhaps not Brett Gardner, but ahead of Holliday, IMO). Add his power and batting eye (an 800ish OPS range) and ability to leadoff and he'd be remarkably valuable.

PuffyPig
08-08-2011, 07:06 PM
Sappelt's LF D would be well above average (perhaps not Brett Gardner, but ahead of Holliday, IMO). Add his power and batting eye (an 800ish OPS range) and ability to leadoff and he'd be remarkably valuable.

I'm not sure I'd concede that Sappelt is an .800 OPS guy.

I'd rather wait and see more than 5 AB's out of the guy. He's been about .840 at AAA.

dougdirt
08-08-2011, 08:40 PM
Besides for your love of Reds prospects, what has Alonso done that was impressive? He can hit but thats about it. He can't run or field. After watching him play he looks like a DH to me. For a NL team that isn't impressive.

Well for starters, my love for prospects that has anything to do with my assessment.

As for what has Alonso done that is impressive.... well as you said, he can hit. As for running, I care about running slightly more than I care if a guy shaves. Running is an absolutely complimentary skill in baseball.

As for your assessment of his defense, I will just say that you haven't seen enough of him. Alonso looked bad in the three games in the Majors in left. He wasn't nearly that bad in Louisville in left. Joey Votto looked like a DH to me two weeks ago in the field. But of course if we are only looking at 10 plays we are missing a whole lot of other things. Don't mistake this for me saying Alonso is a good left fielder. He isn't. But he isn't nearly as bad as his 3 games suggested he is either.

Scrap Irony
08-08-2011, 08:50 PM
As for your assessment of his defense, I will just say that you haven't seen enough of him. Alonso looked bad in the three games in the Majors in left. He wasn't nearly that bad in Louisville in left.

Agree to disagree on this one, doug.

He'd be the worst defensively in LF in the majors by a wide, wide margin.

I said it before he came up. I'll say it again. He's not close to serviceable in that position.

Really, really poor routes, extremely slow, and no knack for judging fly balls off the bat makes for a perennial DH or 1B.

Now, perhaps he can play 3B (I have my doubts), but that's the only way he's going to see much time in Cincinnati (assuming the Reds don't deal Votto).

dougdirt
08-08-2011, 10:15 PM
Agree to disagree on this one, doug.

He'd be the worst defensively in LF in the majors by a wide, wide margin.

I said it before he came up. I'll say it again. He's not close to serviceable in that position.

Really, really poor routes, extremely slow, and no knack for judging fly balls off the bat makes for a perennial DH or 1B.

Now, perhaps he can play 3B (I have my doubts), but that's the only way he's going to see much time in Cincinnati (assuming the Reds don't deal Votto).

We are going to disagree because I have seen him take plenty of good routes to baseballs. Heck, the route he took to the inside the park HR was a great route until he found out there was no foul territory right there. The catch he made leaping at the wall in Chicago was a fine route. I have watched him in Louisville take plenty of good routes. Yeah, he takes some poor ones too. Most outfielders will. I saw Stubbs take a poor route a few days ago on a baseball. He took quite a few steps backwards before coming in on the ball. It happens to nearly everyone. The guy is never going to be confused with a good fielder. His foot speed isn't that good, but what he has done in three games in the majors in left isn't a fair representation of his abilities.

Scrap Irony
08-08-2011, 10:22 PM
My father-inp-law has season tickets to Louisville, doug, and I go about 40 times a season.

I'm guessing I've seen him in LF more than you have.

He's the worst OF I've ever seen in professional baseball.

And it's not particularly close.

If it were, he'd be playing LF in Cincinnati.

After all, they've played Dunn and Gomes out there. They're okay with really bad defense in left as long as that bat hits.

The question isn't whether Alonso can hit. He can. At worst, he's an 800-850 OPS masher.

But his glove just won't get him there.

edabbs44
08-08-2011, 10:23 PM
We are going to disagree because I have seen him take plenty of good routes to baseballs. Heck, the route he took to the inside the park HR was a great route until he found out there was no foul territory right there. The catch he made leaping at the wall in Chicago was a fine route. I have watched him in Louisville take plenty of good routes. Yeah, he takes some poor ones too. Most outfielders will. I saw Stubbs take a poor route a few days ago on a baseball. He took quite a few steps backwards before coming in on the ball. It happens to nearly everyone. The guy is never going to be confused with a good fielder. His foot speed isn't that good, but what he has done in three games in the majors in left isn't a fair representation of his abilities.

No disrespect, but don't you think the organization would have a better, more complete view of Alonso as a fielder?

dougdirt
08-08-2011, 10:28 PM
No disrespect, but don't you think the organization would have a better, more complete view of Alonso as a fielder?

The organization, yes. The organization ran him out there every day in Louisville. So they clearly didn't think it was just a waste.

Dusty? Well, he is starting Fred Lewis in left field tonight. So no, I don't think he has a better, more complete view of anything.

edabbs44
08-08-2011, 10:38 PM
The organization, yes. The organization ran him out there every day in Louisville. So they clearly didn't think it was just a waste.

Dusty? Well, he is starting Fred Lewis in left field tonight. So no, I don't think he has a better, more complete view of anything.

I doubt Dusty made the decision on his own to kill the LF project.

Brutus
08-08-2011, 10:42 PM
I haven't particularly been impressed with Alonso thus far. Certainly not his defense and I still maintain his bat, at least to this point, is still a bit over hyped as well. I believe he has the potential to be a great hitter, but I haven't been wowed by him just yet.

For me, Todd Frazier is the guy I've been more impressed with. I don't expect an all-star ceiling out of him, but I think he can settle into a productive 3B after Rolen retires, or just can't be productive anymore.

kaldaniels
08-09-2011, 12:13 AM
I haven't particularly been impressed with Alonso thus far. Certainly not his defense and I still maintain his bat, at least to this point, is still a bit over hyped as well. I believe he has the potential to be a great hitter, but I haven't been wowed by him just yet.

For me, Todd Frazier is the guy I've been more impressed with. I don't expect an all-star ceiling out of him, but I think he can settle into a productive 3B after Rolen retires, or just can't be productive anymore.

If you said Yonder hasn't had the at-bats in order to wow you I would understand. But the guy is hitting .500 with an OPS of over 1.300. Yet you are more impressed with a guy with less than 40 at bats who is batting .237.

- And to be fair, Yonder has been a butcher in the field in his short amount of time.

Brutus
08-09-2011, 01:37 AM
If you said Yonder hasn't had the at-bats in order to wow you I would understand. But the guy is hitting .500 with an OPS of over 1.300. Yet you are more impressed with a guy with less than 40 at bats who is batting .237.

- And to be fair, Yonder has been a butcher in the field in his short amount of time.

Curious why you didn't use Frazier's OPS instead of his batting average when mentioning him (.862)?

Nonetheless, it should be noted that I'm using their entire season, both AAA and Majors combined to form my assessment, not the small samples either have in Cincinnati.

kaldaniels
08-09-2011, 01:53 AM
Curious why you didn't use Frazier's OPS instead of his batting average when mentioning him (.862)?

Nonetheless, it should be noted that I'm using their entire season, both AAA and Majors combined to form my assessment, not the small samples either have in Cincinnati.

If you are questioning my motives, it was simply that it was what I had accessible following the game on MLB gameday. Yonder was not playing so I had his full up to date stats available. Fair enough explaination though. But Yonder does have the better bat of the two, no? Thats all I was really getting at.

Albeit the spirit of this thread has been to dicuss how the players have been so far in the Majors (hence many people deferring on Sappelt) so I guess I didn't follow your thinking.

Cooper
08-09-2011, 02:08 AM
Chicago is a brutal placeto evaluate an outfielder -heck Marlon Byrd blew 2 plays because the wind. The Cubs catcher and 1st baseman gave up on a ball that blew back in-and there were many plays where a player had to corral an infield fly. Evaluating him there and then calling it the experiment over is silly- the whole Alonzo "thing" is showing the effects of a FO that can not make up it's mind and, at the very least, showing not prepare a player for success. A good and smart organization makes a plan, everyone gets behind the plan, and then they support the player in being successful as possible.

Dusty is NOT the organization and he is waaaay toooo over reactive to make decisions that good organizations make. he needs to play the young guys and try to support their growth.

Yonder playing 3rd does not help him succeed. The approach does not even help him prepare to succeed. This is what small minded baseball teams do. Embarrassing.

Yonder is the best hitter and a stud. If he plays 3rd -play him there when he is facing a RHer. Make sure a RHer is pitching for the Reds. Make sure Janish is there to help cover for Yonder's deficits. Make sure Sappelt is in left to insure that Yonder does not have to cover a ton of ground (foul ground) Lastly, support the decision and "make" it work. If you cannot live with him doing poorly in the field for 40 or 50 games (minimum) then don't mess with him at 3rd. I doubt he has the skills but don't let your manager sabotage the plan in 2 days.

I love Sappelt and think he fits into a space and a need.

Brutus
08-09-2011, 02:28 AM
If you are questioning my motives, it was simply that it was what I had accessible following the game on MLB gameday. Yonder was not playing so I had his full up to date stats available. Fair enough explaination though. But Yonder does have the better bat of the two, no? Thats all I was really getting at.

Albeit the spirit of this thread has been to dicuss how the players have been so far in the Majors (hence many people deferring on Sappelt) so I guess I didn't follow your thinking.

Yeah you're probably right about the intent. I didn't consider Frazier's 40 plate appearances or especially Alonso's 18 PAs to be sufficient to make a judgment, so I'm going by a combination of what I've seen in Cincinnati and what they did in Louisville.

I'll admit I'm partially more impressed by Frazier simply because I have much lower expectations. I think it's key for the Reds to find a suitable long-term replacement for Rolen, and Frazier is showing himself to be (potentially) that guy. Alonso can hit, but I'm still on the fence as to how much and whether it will be enough to make it worth rolling the dice and trading Votto.

To this point, I just think Alonso has fallen below expectations. That is not to say he won't eventually become what I think most of us think he can be, but I'm just not yet overwhelmed by him.

Ron Madden
08-09-2011, 04:38 AM
In my humble and honest opinion we may never know the true answer to the question in this thread title until these guys are given a legitimate amount of playing time.

Dusty can help by letting these guys play the rest of the season.

.

puca
08-09-2011, 06:39 AM
Magic 8-ball says: Ask again later

Roy Tucker
08-09-2011, 09:06 AM
Evaluating him there and then calling it the experiment over is silly- the whole Alonzo "thing" is showing the effects of a FO that can not make up it's mind and, at the very least, showing not prepare a player for success. A good and smart organization makes a plan, everyone gets behind the plan, and then they support the player in being successful as possible.



I agree with this. I think the Reds (FO and manager) are looking like a bunch of clowns and clueless as to how to evaluate Alonso. They're changing their minds about as often as my daughter trying to pick out a hairband to wear to school.

Plan the plan, make sure you have the proverbial buy-in from everyone (i.e. everyone around the table looks you in the eye and nods yes), and then work the plan. Make sure you give the player a fighting chance to look good. It does nobody any good to toss someone into the frying pan when its not necessary.

Guacarock
08-09-2011, 10:12 AM
Baker has gone overboard with his antics to sandbag Alonso. Something else could be going on here that supersedes a manager being frustrated with a prospect's shortcomings. If Baker was legitimately trying to school Alonso, he'd be more collected and cool in his approach.

What we're seeing is quite possibly the outward manifestation of a deeper fissure between Baker and Jocketty. Maybe Baker is venting because he's picked up the vibes and senses he might be on his way out. I'm not saying that's the case, but it were, wouldn't surprise me.

PuffyPig
08-09-2011, 10:58 AM
No disrespect, but don't you think the organization would have a better, more complete view of Alonso as a fielder?

So, I'm guessing that when the "organization" has Renteria and Janish playing SS over Cozart you are on board?

When has the "organization" taken priority over what posters here think?

If the answer is always "the organization knows best", this board will explode, won't it?

Cooper
08-09-2011, 12:48 PM
Guacarock: i think your right- it does appear that Dusty is overreacting and his approach toward Yonder may be about something else. I've heard him say for weeks that he is tired of hearing suggestions for who to play in left field and i'm speculating that maybe he has grown tired of hearing recommendations.

My question is: why the heck is Dusty mad? I'm a believer in good organizations making a plan by hearing other voices and then making the a plan and seeing it through. Dusty appears to love playing the small sample size hunch -so we get Lewis in the lineup because he is 7 for 9 lifetime against the starting pitcher. Even if Lewis goes 4 for 4 does it help the team solve organizational goals/objectives. Of course the other side of that is the organization telling the middle manager (Dusty) that if he goes along with organizational plans he will not be held accountable if those plans do not work out (yonder in left field).

Lastly, when a team starts losing -players stop listening. Does Dusty have the clubs ear's? I kind of doubt it. Nobody likes hearing the same voice for 4 or 5 years. That's not Dusty's fault- it's just the way human's work and perceive.