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View Full Version : Huge Offseason Trade Is Coming



FireDusty
08-08-2011, 01:50 PM
I was hesitant to even allow this into my brain, but it's obvious what needs to happen.

The Reds need to make a shocking trade this offseason, but contrary to what most think, it will take 2 players to get Bautista.

The Reds answer nearly every offensive and salary structure question by trading Drew Stubbs & Joey Votto to the Blue Jays for Bautista.

Toronto won't accept a Votto for Bautista and I don't blame them. They have salary certainty with Bautista, they would have none for Votto.

I absolutely gaurantee you one thing for absolutely certain. Dave Sappelt is the leadoff hitter this club has needed and he is staring us right in the face. He does something that we've forgotten can happen from the leadoff position........he puts the bat on the baseball.

Alonzo, if given 162 games at first base next year will put up very similar numbers to Votto at the same age Votto did. Give Alonzo 2 years & he's maybe winning an MVP.

Votto ain't staying here. His valaue is at an all time high. We have his replacement, and we have Stubbs replacement to.

Any Reds fan mad about Votto being traded, will have no problem with it after watching Bautista play 81 games in this wiffle ball stadium.

Problem is.....as good as Votto is.....you ain't gettin' Bautista one for one. Not with his age, production and salary certainty.

If the Reds want to get better, they have 2 players that can be used to bring in a 50 homerun bat and free up first base for a young man who is 23 years old and can flat out rake.

swingbelly
08-08-2011, 01:53 PM
Well...if they trade Votto didn't Yonder Alonso come up as a first baseman?

bubbachunk
08-08-2011, 01:54 PM
You are undervaluing Stubbs a ton imo. The only way I do that deal is if the Jays then add a solid prospect perhaps.

Who Dey Time
08-08-2011, 02:08 PM
You are undervaluing Stubbs a ton imo. The only way I do that deal is if the Jays then add a solid prospect perhaps.

This. More than likely I think a Votto-Heisey for Bautista is a viable trade. Who knows if a Cincinnati-Toronto trade was ever discussed though.

FireDusty
08-08-2011, 02:10 PM
You are undervaluing Stubbs a ton imo. The only way I do that deal is if the Jays then add a solid prospect perhaps.

A ton?

http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/_/id/29611/drew-stubbs

20 Homers, 40 Steals.......sounds good.......good defense......sounds good......209 strikesouts.....and .391 slugging %.........sucks.

Also, Stubbs will be 27 years old next opening day. I don't see the light going on for a guy who is 27 years old. Major League Players, save for only a handful, who have not arrived by 27 years old........normally never arrive.

Stubbs was horribly mishandled here. He was made to be a lead off hitter just because he's fast. If he stays, he's a rally busting 6th hitter who will hit 20 to 25 homeruns, steal 30 to 40 bases, and strikeout 175 times a year.

I just don't see the 110 strikouts a year, 30 homeruns, 30 steals, .375 OBA, .500 slugging % coming from Drew Stubbs.

Dave Sappelt is a better offensive player than Drew Stubbs. He may never hit 20 homeruns, but he'll hit the baseball & it will take Sappelt 2 years to strike out as much as Stubbs does in one year.

Defense is important, but you just can't have guys that strike out 200 times. You just cant do it.

Krawhitham
08-08-2011, 03:27 PM
.222 /w 2 HR since the break, maybe the Bautista bubble has burst

Krawhitham
08-08-2011, 03:30 PM
Well...if they trade Votto didn't Yonder Alonso come up as a first baseman?

he is below average at 1st base, he sees himself as a 3rd baseman

Vottomatic
08-08-2011, 04:07 PM
I think this is as good as it gets with Stubbs and Bruce. Might be the right time to trade them before the rest of the league finds out they're "average" or worse.

bubbachunk
08-08-2011, 04:17 PM
You can get hung up on strikeouts but I sure will not. Stubbs has had a bit of dip in his slug% this year but I expect that to trend back to what he did the first ~1.5 years, meaning he is a gold glove centerfielder putting up a .750+ OPS. Since when is that average??

Drew Stubbs to me is essentially Mike Cameron minus the possibly roids.

bounty37h
08-08-2011, 04:58 PM
.222 /w 2 HR since the break, maybe the Bautista bubble has burst

Thats what I have been saying, expect him to come back down towards Earth/his normal career numbers. Still think he is good, but also feel he has been hyped higly lately, might overpay for that reason more than actual production.

Tuff Nut
08-08-2011, 06:46 PM
When this trade was first floated around here, I was all for it. BUT, the morethought put into it, I say pass. Not that I wouldn't trade Votto. Just not for a Bautista, and right now I'd rather trade Bruce and/or Stubbs, and still not for Bautista. This team is in dire need of another TOR pitcher. Cueto is showing his due; Leake is a legit 2a, imo, he has been the most consistant all year and will continue to improve; Willis is showing he still has something to prove, and is a great vet presence in the dugout.(anyone else, besides me, take some notice that Chapman has really controlled himself on the mound, and just looks very powerful, and in command, since D-Train has been promoted, :dunno: I really think Dontrelle has been a huge influence on this whole team...he just seems to have that attitude, imo) Arroyo is pitching better lately, and one could wonder about his mono epidemic being the reason for his late resurgence. I'll agree, but then will say he should be shut down, and recharged for next season. Bailey has had a very up and down year, and his next couple of games should dictate his future with this team. He is still young, and if shows promise, keep him, but then, he if possibly a key cog for bringing in another TOR. To me he is most tradable of the SPs.
Team Bailey with Bruce and/or Stubbs, plus a Hamilton(I feel Cozart can hang around awhile), Duran or whatever, and go for King Felix.
The call-ups, so far have really produced, and need to be getting their due time. Lets see what they can do the rest of the year, and make adjustments accordingly.

smixsell
08-08-2011, 09:28 PM
You are undervaluing Stubbs a ton imo. The only way I do that deal is if the Jays then add a solid prospect perhaps.

Spot on, but i wouldn't trade Stubbs for just any prospect. Subbs is a future (near future) all star centerfielder.

smixsell
08-08-2011, 09:44 PM
I think this is as good as it gets with Stubbs and Bruce. Might be the right time to trade them before the rest of the league finds out they're "average" or worse.

No way.

Look at what Stubbs and Bruce did last year when they had Edmunds on the bench to talk about their approach and mechanics between at bats. They both went from "almost totally lost" to "locked in and hanging out line drives to all fields" while Edmunds was here. You could see them both talking with Edmunds between at bats and see Edmonds demonstrating mechanics.

Ahhhhh, what Stubbs and Bruce (and some of our other young players) would be like with a decent major league hitting coach. As much as I think the guy is a tool, I'd have Edmonds here as a hitting coach to replace Jacoby in a heartbeat. Come to think of it, I'd have almost anybody here to replace Jacoby in an instant.

bubbachunk
08-08-2011, 11:24 PM
Stubbs showing his pop yet again when he does not have to hit leadoff, it is incredibly obvious he is miscast in that role.

SidneySlicker
08-08-2011, 11:26 PM
Spot on, but i wouldn't trade Stubbs for just any prospect. Subbs is a future (near future) all star centerfielder.

Not sure how you can say that. Stubbs has always had strikeout issues and at best he's a .250 25hr and is gonna probably strikeout 160-180. He'd have to cut his strikeouts by probably a third to sniff the all star game.

NeilHamburger
08-09-2011, 12:50 AM
Reds are really gonna be movers this offseason. Walt is gonna get going with some blockbuster deals.

Huge move: Bring back Freddy Lewis

Game Changer: New Spicy Cheese Nachos served at MULTIPLE concession stands

Honestly, it's good to be back in the 01-09 mood again. I didn't like actually caring about baseball last year. The good news is I haven't spent, and won't spend a dime on the team since June. Have fun fruity bob and Walt "i don't want to trade prospects" Jocketty. Seriously, Walt has the easiest job in the world. He gets paid to do nothing for 12 months out of the year. The Reds should save some money this offseason and not even go the Winter meetings.

nux fan
08-09-2011, 01:05 AM
agree jocketty is an arrogant pompous windbag, has the gall to not answer questions about prospects and keep trotting out the same wormed over garbage, how many years is homer bailey going to be a prospect

plowshareredfan
08-09-2011, 11:09 AM
At this point I would be willing to make any trade that would send Stubbs packing. How can a player have made it this far in his career and have to guess on every pitch that is thrown to him. Does he need contacts? Can he not see the rotation on the baseball to determine if it is a fastball or breaking ball. As long as he is a guess hitter he will continue to strike out at an alarming rate. With this time left in the season lets play Sappelt as much as possible to see if he can at least put the ball in play and use his speed to get on base.

Ohioballplayer
08-11-2011, 02:20 PM
I cant see trading Stubbs just, yet, unfortunately I really think he will pan out, maybe if we had an actual hitting coach, that actually knew how to hit or teach them how to adjust, yes?

I also agree with trading Votto, sorry guys, Joey will not stay here when his contract is up - period. I am not saying trade him for Bautista, but maybe multiple other players, yeah I am thinking Yonder would suffice in that role.

Time for our front office to be baseball savvy, look around the league, do some actual scouting, find 2 good players maybe 3 for one Joey Votto, 3B, LF, and a prospect for future placement?

And to make sure the 3B or LF is considered a RH power Hitter type.

I don't know we can all guess, and guess, and propose, and hint, and beg, and maybe if we knew anything we could be working for the Reds in the FO, not saying some of us couldn't but are any of us doing that at this time?

to be continued........by someone.........

Vottomatic
08-11-2011, 06:11 PM
Reds are really gonna be movers this offseason. Walt is gonna get going with some blockbuster deals.

Huge move: Bring back Freddy Lewis

Game Changer: New Spicy Cheese Nachos served at MULTIPLE concession stands

Honestly, it's good to be back in the 01-09 mood again. I didn't like actually caring about baseball last year. The good news is I haven't spent, and won't spend a dime on the team since June. Have fun fruity bob and Walt "i don't want to trade prospects" Jocketty. Seriously, Walt has the easiest job in the world. He gets paid to do nothing for 12 months out of the year. The Reds should save some money this offseason and not even go the Winter meetings.

Yeah, Bob C. said the other day on WLW that they're happy with the team and they might just skip the Winter Meetings to save money, since attendance is down lately.

;)

nux fan
08-11-2011, 06:15 PM
yeah they love the shortstop position and Darrell Chaney

texasdave
08-11-2011, 06:50 PM
...and it won't involve the Reds. I expect basically the same team in 2012. Along with the obligatory Walt Jocketty quote, "There was nothing out there that made any sense for this club. We didn't want to overpay. We would rather be stacked at Louisville than win on the major league level."

Billy Hamilton's Legs
08-12-2011, 01:55 AM
I don't like the idea of trading Votto simply because I don't like trading away a player that is executing. I believe Yonder will be a very good player, but is he a guarantee? No. plain and simple. Is anyone, most likely a contending team, going to part with another major piece of their lineup that is the reason for their success already? Maybe, but in that situation the player is likely flawed (injury, aging that isn't obvious to other teams, etc).

For example, you're the Reds and you want to acquire the best hitter on the market in the offseason in a trade. He's gotta be young too. Say justin upton. If you're the reds, and you're vying to compete next season, are you going to give up a major bats to get him? Would you trade Bruce? I wouldn't, because overall your team is getting better, but not by a whole lot and again you're getting another clubs player and that comes with more mystery than you would guess. I think a lot of teams would be willing to send guys that are secretly damaged goods, maybe like an Ubaldo Jimenez except no clear indication of something off (like velocity in his case). I just don't trust another team, as the buyer, to send me back equal value for a guy we KNOW is the real deal. I think many would agree a deal of two superstars like that is unlikely. Obviously a guy like Bautista is appealing, but is he really available? How often do star for star trades happen? Rarely.

Votto makes this team legitimate. I like the idea of overall value (keeping yonder and trading votto and saving money), but you take your guarantees and you hold onto them. Joey Votto is one of them.

Old NDN
08-13-2011, 11:11 AM
...and it won't involve the Reds. I expect basically the same team in 2012. Along with the obligatory Walt Jocketty quote, "There was nothing out there that made any sense for this club. We didn't want to overpay. We would rather be stacked at Louisville than win on the major league level."

This. Just about every contending team in MLB uses their minor leagues to trade for immediate MLB help....except the Reds.

Hillsdale87
08-13-2011, 11:24 AM
This. Just about every contending team in MLB uses their minor leagues to trade for immediate MLB help....except the Reds.

Except 2 years ago when they go Scott Rolen... They tried last year with Cliff Lee. They are not unwilling to give up prospects, but they don't want to overpay, which is smart. They were clearly going after Shields and Jiminez. I'm fine with not taking Jiminez. He's enough of a question mark that I wouldn't want to give up too much for him. Shields was just taken off the table. A small deal for a reliever or 4th starter wouldn't have helped the Reds this year. They needed a big deal, and none was available at the right price. Nobody else in the MLB made a big deal either at the deadline, and a lot of teams need help.

Also, many fans wanted the Reds to make a big free agent signing in the offseason. None of those have been good deals, and the Reds couldn't have afforded them anyway. There was a lot of clamoring to go after somebody like DeJesus, Willingham, or Bartlett. None of those guys are having good seasons at all. The Reds were done in this year by some very disappointing offensive years from 3B and SS and by abysmal starting pitching. Arroyo, Wood, and Volquez regressed significantly from last year's numbers, which was completely unexpected. Arroyo is generally solid. Many on here were calling Wood the ace of the staff. And Volquez gave a lot of hope at the end of last year that he was getting back to 2008 form.
I would like to see a deal, and I expect one in the offseason, but I don't want a team that is working on a small payroll to overpay significantly by giving up good, cheap prospects

Old NDN
08-13-2011, 11:52 AM
Did I imagine this?

Beltran to the Giants
Pence to the Phillies
Jiminez to the Indians
Ludwick, Lee to the Pirates
Dotel, Rypzinski, Furcal,etc. to the Cards
Bedard to the Red Sox
Bourne to the Braves
KRod to the Brewers

I'm sure I'm leaving some out. I understand it would take more than one player to fill the needs of this team. My point is, these and other teams are willing to trade prospects to improve their team NOW.
Rolen was a fine addition. People screamed we gave up too much to get him. I don't think the Reds could have won without him last year. You have to be willing to take a chance. Nobody wants to get fleeced in a trade. But to sit and worry about that, while hanging on to those "good, cheap prospects", hoping they will someday fill a need, will keep the Reds in the middle of the Central pack, IMO.

Hillsdale87
08-13-2011, 01:21 PM
Did I imagine this?

Beltran to the Giants
Pence to the Phillies
Jiminez to the Indians
Ludwick, Lee to the Pirates
Dotel, Rypzinski, Furcal,etc. to the Cards
Bedard to the Red Sox
Bourne to the Braves
KRod to the Brewers

I'm sure I'm leaving some out. I understand it would take more than one player to fill the needs of this team. My point is, these and other teams are willing to trade prospects to improve their team NOW.
Rolen was a fine addition. People screamed we gave up too much to get him. I don't think the Reds could have won without him last year. You have to be willing to take a chance. Nobody wants to get fleeced in a trade. But to sit and worry about that, while hanging on to those "good, cheap prospects", hoping they will someday fill a need, will keep the Reds in the middle of the Central pack, IMO.

Nobody on that list would have been a fit for the Reds except Bourn and Pence, and it was clear that they had no interest in trading within the division. And most of those moves would not have improved the team in any way. Walt shouldn't be making moves just for the sake of making moves.