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View Full Version : Bring up some pitchers - NOW



Kc61
08-09-2011, 09:53 AM
The bullpen is shot. The risk is that Dusty will push his starting pitchers too hard to rest the pen. For guys like Leake, this is a very bad idea. Dusty needs to back off the starters, not push them.

Bring up Volquez, Wood, maybe Boxberger. Some relatively fresh arms. Jordan Smith. Carlos Fisher. DL some relievers for fatigue. Ondrusek and Masset seem way overworked. Maybe Bray too.

Put some fresher arms in the pen.

I don't care if the new guys are ready for the big leagues. I don't care if they are good. If they have healthy, relatively fresh arms, get them up.

Do not risk the starters by pushing them to save the pen . Not at this stage.

wally post
08-09-2011, 10:23 AM
I agree - as bad as it is now, it could get worse if Dusty keeps auto-piloting his pitcher choices per situation.

traderumor
08-09-2011, 10:30 AM
Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt, burnt the t-shirt. I don't think we want to see more of Fisher, Smith, et al. Boxberger maybe. Recycling is better left for aluminum cans though. There is still a pitching dearth in the org., there is little to no in-house help in the near term.

If you really want to get depressed, go look at the AA roster. Its a joke.

reds1869
08-09-2011, 10:33 AM
I would like to see what one or two of the surplus starters can do in relief. Volquez in particular might be a nasty reliever if he can get his mindset right. EV has already killed most of his value as a starter so why not se what he can do in the pen, at least for the last few months of this season?

Guacarock
08-09-2011, 10:42 AM
Rather than recycling borderline pitchers from AAA, we could give the bullpen arms a rest by simply doing what every other team does and that's to have a designated a long man. Lecure began the season as a starter, so he would make the most sense to serve as our long man. But if you look, you'll see: He hasn't pitched more than two innings at a stretch for close to three months now. The last time he exceeded the two-inning ceiling was on May 22 when he went 3.1 innings.

If Dusty doesn't want Lecure as his long man, then fine, designate someone else. But no one's been handed the job. The only reliever who really got stretched out all year was Carlos Fisher when he took the loss after hurling 5+ emergency innings in our extra-inning marathon against the Phillies.

I'm not sure why the Reds are so reluctant to carry a long man. The results of that neglect are always the same: Your middle and late relievers can come on like gangbusters to start the season, but will be gassed and worn out by the All-Star break. Not the right way to run a railroad.

lollipopcurve
08-09-2011, 10:51 AM
Maloney's turn to start for Louisville. What would make the most sense would be to bring him up for tonight's game as the long man.

Kc61
08-09-2011, 10:53 AM
Maloney's turn to start for Louisville. What would make the most sense would be to bring him up for tonight's game as the long man.

Good idea.

Lecure is already functioning as a long man and he's being knocked around of late. The way Reds pitching is going, they need three long men right now.

Folks, I'm not looking to come up with new Aroldis Chapman-type super star pitchers here. I just want to avoid arm injuries by relying on overworked pitchers in a dead Reds season.

Bring up Maloney. Bring up starters. Bring up re-cycled relievers.

Just get Masset and Ondrusek and Bray out of there for awhile.

REDREAD
08-09-2011, 11:00 AM
They should start using Arrondo more often too.
They need to make a decision on whether to bring him back next year or not too.

Two factors wore out the pen this year.

1. Largely ineffective starters at the beginning of the year that did not go deep into ballgames. Volquez's poor outings really impacted the pen. Arroyo's health problems cost starting innings. Sending down Leake was a mistake as well (Leake generally gives innings).. But basically a lot of the starters this year have not gone deep.

2. The Reds were super careful with Chapman and Arrondo.. I know Dusty was trying to build up their confidence and place them in spots to help them succeed.. Well, maybe Arrondo was just a lack of confidence. In any event,
at least Arrondo could've been used in some of those games were we were down 3 runs in the 6th (instead of Logan).

Pretty incredible that we are carrying 12 pitchers, and the top 3 bullpen pitchers are all gassed. Remember back in the 80's when teams only carried 10 pitchers?

Kc61
08-09-2011, 11:04 AM
Where is Scott Sullivan when you need him? What a workhorse he was. The human bullpen saver.

Kc61
08-09-2011, 12:11 PM
Sun Deck says Travis Wood is on the way.

Great minds . . . .

Cooper
08-09-2011, 01:18 PM
Now- will Dusty use him? :) Wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't see the light of day.

traderumor
08-09-2011, 01:55 PM
Where's Horst?

Guacarock
08-09-2011, 02:00 PM
Where's Horst?

He's off on a new adventure with Waldo.

jojo
08-09-2011, 02:11 PM
Here is some interesting perspective.... The Reds pen has thrown the 6th highest number of innings in the majors. Coming into the season, depth in the rotation was thought to be one of the Reds bigger strengths. Their rotation is ranked 27th in the majors by FIP and 26th in the majors by xFIP and is ranked 20th in the majors (11th in the NL) by number of innings thrown.

Is this a flaw of building for depth vs TOR arms to pin the rotation? Or is this just a case of depth largely not performing?

jojo
08-09-2011, 02:12 PM
Where's Horst?

Isn't he hearing a who?

traderumor
08-09-2011, 02:15 PM
Here is some interesting perspective.... The Reds pen has thrown the 6th highest number of innings in the majors. Coming into the season, depth in the rotation was thought to be one of the Reds bigger strengths. Their rotation is ranked 27th in the majors by FIP and 26th in the majors by xFIP and is ranked 20th in the majors (11th in the NL) by number of innings thrown.

Is this a flaw of building for depth vs TOR arms to pin the rotation? Or is this just a case of depth largely not performing?My quick and dirty thoughts on our staff: rotation can't strike anyone out, so if the bloops fall or the D fails or fly balls fly out, then its gonna be a long night for the starter. Bullpen is issuing too many walks to survive. Yet last year, low walks was a strength of the entire staff. That begs the question of resolving it. Where do you start? What do you expect? Glad my paycheck isn't dependent on figuring that out.

traderumor
08-09-2011, 02:17 PM
Isn't he hearing a who?Metaphorically, he's Tigger, getting bounced around so much that I can't keep track of him.

traderumor
08-09-2011, 02:18 PM
Totally unrelated to baseball, but I highly recommend that Donato's Italian Grinder. Their new sub offering that I just devoured. I get no kickbacks for that, so I hope I didn't break any rules :)

Kc61
08-09-2011, 03:02 PM
My quick and dirty thoughts on our staff: rotation can't strike anyone out, so if the bloops fall or the D fails or fly balls fly out, then its gonna be a long night for the starter. Bullpen is issuing too many walks to survive. Yet last year, low walks was a strength of the entire staff. That begs the question of resolving it. Where do you start? What do you expect? Glad my paycheck isn't dependent on figuring that out.

I agree with you on the bullpen, which needs to be re-tooled if only because of Coco's contract status and the heavy overuse of guys like Masset and Ondrusek.

But the Reds' starting rotation this year was a tryout camp. Bailey, Wood, Leake were all unproven guys. V was coming back from TJ surgery and had not yet returned to form. Willis was coming off bad seasons.

The only two "proven" guys were Cueto (started season hurt) and Arroyo (started season recovering from mono). Bad luck there.

The Reds actually got lucky that Leake and ultimately Willis did so well. But they really had no right to assume that with so many question marks the rotation would be good.

Build with youth and cheaper veterans, sure, but don't expect too much. That's perhaps why the Brewers chose to get two proven starters in the off-season.

Rojo
08-09-2011, 05:30 PM
Is this a flaw of building for depth vs TOR arms to pin the rotation? Or is this just a case of depth largely not performing?

Both. But I'd lean toward the latter. I don't think it unrealistic to imagine getting at least three stable starters out of Volquez, Arroyo, Leake, Wood, Bailey, Cueto, Lecure, and maybe, Chapman. What we got was a lucky Cueto and a so-so Leak -- both of them missing playing time.

And we largely did build for TOR -- Volquez, Bailey, Cueto and Chapman all have 1A stuff. Maybe the question is "should we have gone for a few more Leake's".

_Sir_Charles_
08-09-2011, 05:52 PM
They just DL'd Ondrusek and called up Wood. So your wish is granted. :O)

mth123
08-09-2011, 08:54 PM
Here is some interesting perspective.... The Reds pen has thrown the 6th highest number of innings in the majors. Coming into the season, depth in the rotation was thought to be one of the Reds bigger strengths. Their rotation is ranked 27th in the majors by FIP and 26th in the majors by xFIP and is ranked 20th in the majors (11th in the NL) by number of innings thrown.

Is this a flaw of building for depth vs TOR arms to pin the rotation? Or is this just a case of depth largely not performing?

It a flaw of assuming quantity equals quality. The Reds didn't add depth to the rotation, they simply had 7 or 8 question marks as opposed to the normal 1 or 2, TOR would have been great, but a proven solid starter would have been huge for this team. People want James Shields and they are right and he is not a TOR starter, He's a solid proven major league starter and even just one would have gone a long way toward preventing the collapse that we've seen in this bullpen.

Its on Walt.