PDA

View Full Version : Do people always cry about Dusty here too?



Skreep
08-09-2011, 04:57 PM
I am on several other boards, and i hear the same tired routine every single day from reds fans there. "FIRE DUSTY", "DUSTY DESTROYS ARMS", yadda yadda yadda. If someone actually gave a legitmate reason that was supported by facts, i wouldnt mind, but its always opinionated crap.

Here are a few arguments i have heard.

"Dusty doesnt like young guys, only older players"
Two starters the other night were 30 or older, BP and Hernandez. Two of our best players. a majority were in the mid 20's.

"Dusty always benches a guy after he has a good game"
Ive seen this tons of times. Ive also come to find out, that when you look stat wise at how a batter does against the opposing starting pitcher, or the type of pitches he throws, the benching is 90% warranted. people act like Dusty, and only Dusty, has any input on this. I'm sure every single team has people watching tape, and using stats to decide the best course of action.

"Dusty destroys arms"
Most peoples default argument against him. Hard to believe someone would actually take a cities excuse for losing pitchers as a fact. This is the same city that believed one foul ball ruined their chances for a world series. Especially when Mark Prior came out publicly and said it wasnt Dustys fault. Then we get the people who tell us to look at the fact that we have had pitchers on the DL this year. If we were the only team that had this issue, then maybe i would believe you. but when asked about the amount of other pitchers who have spent time on the DL in the past 3-5 years, most "Dusty haters" wont change their tune.

"Dusty costs us close games"
just look at our teams RISP in those games and tell me who's fault it is.


There are plenty more, but i'm getting tired of typing. The fact is, Dusty doesnt really do much. We have pitching coaches who work with pitchers (Blaming dusty for a pitchers issues), Hitting coaches who work with hitters (Blaming dusty for batters not hitting the ball), a man above dusty who is responsible for the players in the dugout (People actually blaming dusty for trades not being made and players not being brought up. I'm serious, ive heard this a few times). There was even a person who blamed dusty for cueto being sick.

Dusty does mess up, and he has made mistakes, we all do. But to blame him for every single issue on this team shows a lack of baseball knowledge. Blame the batters for not making contact. Blame the major league pitchers for not being able to throw a strike and do their only job. Blame the closer for blowing games. Blame the hitting coach for players not being able to bunt, or for players having the same broken swing for months. A managers job is way overhyped and he doesnt do much besides be a punching bag.

mroby85
08-09-2011, 05:00 PM
I am on several other boards, and i hear the same tired routine every single day from reds fans there. "FIRE DUSTY", "DUSTY DESTROYS ARMS", yadda yadda yadda. If someone actually gave a legitmate reason that was supported by facts, i wouldnt mind, but its always opinionated crap.

Here are a few arguments i have heard.

"Dusty doesnt like young guys, only older players"
Two starters the other night were 30 or older, BP and Hernandez. Two of our best players. a majority were in the mid 20's.

"Dusty always benches a guy after he has a good game"
Ive seen this tons of times. Ive also come to find out, that when you look stat wise at how a batter does against the opposing starting pitcher, or the type of pitches he throws, the benching is 90% warranted. people act like Dusty, and only Dusty, has any input on this. I'm sure every single team has people watching tape, and using stats to decide the best course of action.

"Dusty destroys arms"
Most peoples default argument against him. Hard to believe someone would actually take a cities excuse for losing pitchers as a fact. This is the same city that believed one foul ball ruined their chances for a world series. Especially when Mark Prior came out publicly and said it wasnt Dustys fault. Then we get the people who tell us to look at the fact that we have had pitchers on the DL this year. If we were the only team that had this issue, then maybe i would believe you. but when asked about the amount of other pitchers who have spent time on the DL in the past 3-5 years, most "Dusty haters" wont change their tune.

"Dusty costs us close games"
just look at our teams RISP in those games and tell me who's fault it is.


There are plenty more, but i'm getting tired of typing. The fact is, Dusty doesnt really do much. We have pitching coaches who work with pitchers (Blaming dusty for a pitchers issues), Hitting coaches who work with hitters (Blaming dusty for batters not hitting the ball), a man above dusty who is responsible for the players in the dugout (People actually blaming dusty for trades not being made and players not being brought up. I'm serious, ive heard this a few times). There was even a person who blamed dusty for cueto being sick.

Dusty does mess up, and he has made mistakes, we all do. But to blame him for every single issue on this team shows a lack of baseball knowledge. Blame the batters for not making contact. Blame the major league pitchers for not being able to throw a strike and do their only job. Blame the closer for blowing games. Blame the hitting coach for players not being able to bunt, or for players having the same broken swing for months. A managers job is way overhyped and he doesnt do much besides be a punching bag.

yep lol

Who Dey Time
08-09-2011, 05:05 PM
I am on several other boards, and i hear the same tired routine every single day from reds fans there. "FIRE DUSTY", "DUSTY DESTROYS ARMS", yadda yadda yadda. If someone actually gave a legitmate reason that was supported by facts, i wouldnt mind, but its always opinionated crap.

Here are a few arguments i have heard.

"Dusty doesnt like young guys, only older players"
Two starters the other night were 30 or older, BP and Hernandez. Two of our best players. a majority were in the mid 20's.

"Dusty always benches a guy after he has a good game"
Ive seen this tons of times. Ive also come to find out, that when you look stat wise at how a batter does against the opposing starting pitcher, or the type of pitches he throws, the benching is 90% warranted. people act like Dusty, and only Dusty, has any input on this. I'm sure every single team has people watching tape, and using stats to decide the best course of action.

"Dusty destroys arms"
Most peoples default argument against him. Hard to believe someone would actually take a cities excuse for losing pitchers as a fact. This is the same city that believed one foul ball ruined their chances for a world series. Especially when Mark Prior came out publicly and said it wasnt Dustys fault. Then we get the people who tell us to look at the fact that we have had pitchers on the DL this year. If we were the only team that had this issue, then maybe i would believe you. but when asked about the amount of other pitchers who have spent time on the DL in the past 3-5 years, most "Dusty haters" wont change their tune.

"Dusty costs us close games"
just look at our teams RISP in those games and tell me who's fault it is.


There are plenty more, but i'm getting tired of typing. The fact is, Dusty doesnt really do much. We have pitching coaches who work with pitchers (Blaming dusty for a pitchers issues), Hitting coaches who work with hitters (Blaming dusty for batters not hitting the ball), a man above dusty who is responsible for the players in the dugout (People actually blaming dusty for trades not being made and players not being brought up. I'm serious, ive heard this a few times). There was even a person who blamed dusty for cueto being sick.

Dusty does mess up, and he has made mistakes, we all do. But to blame him for every single issue on this team shows a lack of baseball knowledge. Blame the batters for not making contact. Blame the major league pitchers for not being able to throw a strike and do their only job. Blame the closer for blowing games. Blame the hitting coach for players not being able to bunt, or for players having the same broken swing for months. A managers job is way overhyped and he doesnt do much besides be a punching bag.

Logical, well thought out posts like this are not welcome by the Bash Dusty clowns on Sun Deck. They would probably be here crying about your post but my guess is that they are over in the game thread whining about tonight's lineup.

CWRed
08-09-2011, 05:14 PM
Some of this is true but...

Renteria bats 2nd nearly every time he plays. Stupidity.

He will play a guy based on "match ups." This has included a guy being 2-4 or 4-7 or some small sample size against a certain pitcher instead of just playing the better or hotter player more frequently.

He doesn't reralize how bad guys like BP and Stubbs are against righies but yet he led Stubbs off most of the year and bats BP cleanup no matter what, so his "match up" talk doesn't hold water.

Alot of things are not Dusty's fault but he sure is an absolute moron. Ask Giants and Cubs fans. Ok forget the Cubs. :-)

P.S. Corey Patterson playing at all, Janish also batting 2nd, etc and so forth.

Skreep
08-09-2011, 05:18 PM
Some of this is true but...

Renteria bats 2nd nearly every time he plays. Stupidity.

He will play a guy based on "match ups." This has included a guy being 2-4 or 4-7 or some small sample size against a certain pitcher instead of just playing the better or hotter player more frequently.

He doesn't reralize how bad guys like BP and Stubbs are against righies but yet he led Stubbs off most of the year and bats BP cleanup no matter what, so his "match up" talk doesn't hold water.

Alot of things are not Dusty's fault but he sure is an absolute moron. Ask Giants and Cubs fans. Ok forget the Cubs. :-)

P.S. Corey Patterson playing at all, Janish also batting 2nd, etc and so forth.

a lot of the matchup material i have seen is going against the type of pitcher (mainly fastball, mainly breaking ball, etc..) and who else would you bat at cleanup? everyone cried for bruce to be there, but then got mad at dusty when that didnt work. Rolen has been a DP machine this year. who do you think honestly would improve that spot?

justincredible
08-09-2011, 05:24 PM
a lot of the matchup material i have seen is going against the type of pitcher (mainly fastball, mainly breaking ball, etc..) and who else would you bat at cleanup? everyone cried for bruce to be there, but then got mad at dusty when that didnt work. Rolen has been a DP machine this year. who do you think honestly would improve that spot?

I'd stick Frazier there for the rest of the season. Move BP up to 2nd and drop Janish/Renteria down to 8th.

izzy's dad
08-09-2011, 05:27 PM
I don't bash Dusty, but ignoring the stupid decisions he makes is not something I am willing to do. Paul Janish should never ever, ever, ever, ever bat 2nd in any lineup. I wouldn't hit Janish second on my beer league softball team.

Skreep
08-09-2011, 05:33 PM
I'd stick Frazier there for the rest of the season. Move BP up to 2nd and drop Janish/Renteria down to 8th.

i dont know what to say to that. you dont want Renteria there, but you're fine with someone batting .237 there? yea, he hits for a little power, but wouldnt you want that a little farther up in the lineup since we dont have a dependable leadoff batter?

nux fan
08-09-2011, 05:35 PM
how about a squeeze play with a 2-2 count is that OK also to think the scoreboard is incorrect

Skreep
08-09-2011, 05:37 PM
how about a squeeze play with a 2-2 count is that OK also to think the scoreboard is incorrect

with the way this team is hitting? i dont fault him for trying it. no one would expect it, kind of like the spanish inquistion

CrosleyField
08-09-2011, 05:40 PM
Neutral on Dusty. I do think he is criticized too much. I posted the other day about double switches. Its the national league its going to happen. He gets criticized for playing not playing small ball and when he does bunt he gets criticized for giving up outs. Can't win with the fans.

My real complaint is pitching. Two years ago the 18 inning game against the Padres he pitched Harang and Volquez with little or no rest over four innings each. probably should have let an outfielder pitch and called it a day. Harang never recovered that year.

I despise Renteria, but that is another story.

Skreep
08-09-2011, 05:41 PM
Neutral on Dusty. I do think he is criticized too much. I posted the other day about double switches. Its the national league its going to happen. He gets criticized for playing not playing small ball and when he does bunt he gets criticized for giving up outs. Can't win with the fans.

My real complaint is pitching. Two years ago the 18 inning game against the Padres he pitched Harang and Volquez with little or no rest over four innings each. probably should have let an outfielder pitch and called it a day. Harang never recovered that year.

I despise Renteria, but that is another story.

i have mixed feelings about that game with harang pitching. Harang offered to pitch, but he was never the same after that. Plus, the amount of crap he got for "giving up" in the phillies game this year would have been the same thing.

dthomas24
08-09-2011, 05:45 PM
Neutral on Dusty. I do think he is criticized too much. I posted the other day about double switches. Its the national league its going to happen. He gets criticized for playing not playing small ball and when he does bunt he gets criticized for giving up outs. Can't win with the fans.

My real complaint is pitching. Two years ago the 18 inning game against the Padres he pitched Harang and Volquez with little or no rest over four innings each. probably should have let an outfielder pitch and called it a day. Harang never recovered that year.

I despise Renteria, but that is another story.

Saw David Weathers yelling and throwing things a couple of years ago in the bullpen in a tie game because in an obvious bunt situation Dusty had a weak hitter not bunting. He yelled rather loudly towards the dugout, "Bunt him! That's bad baseball!" It was hilarious!

Skreep
08-09-2011, 05:51 PM
Saw David Weathers yelling and throwing things a couple of years ago in the bullpen in a tie game because in an obvious bunt situation Dusty had a weak hitter not bunting. He yelled rather loudly towards the dugout, "Bunt him! That's bad baseball!" It was hilarious!

bringing david weathers into a game was bad baseball. my wife would leave the room if he came into a game

Krawhitham
08-09-2011, 06:04 PM
This team has a +32 run differential, with that run differential and an average manager they should be 7 games over .500

Anything above the pythagorean expectation you credit to a good manager, anything below is a bad manager

The Reds are 5 games under .500, that is a 12 swing from pythagorean expectation. Dusty is not the worse manager but he is by no means a good or even average manager

In 18 years he has won a grand total of 1 Pennant, In 18 years his teams have finish in 1st place just 4 times and 2 of them were powered by Baroid.


Two starters the other night were 30 or older, BP and Hernandez. Two of our best players. a majority were in the mid 20's.

It is not like he had many other options, But people are talking about Gomes over Hi-C, Patterson over younger guys, Taveras over younger guys, Rolen over anyone who could swing a bat with full motion


"Dusty always benches a guy after he has a good game"

And he does you admit that, you have play the hot hand most sample sizes for BVP are too small to make a good judgment. Who cares if someone is 0-4 vs a pitcher, if the hitter goes 2-2 he is suddenly a .333 hitter vs the pitcher. It does take some guys more at bats before feeling comfortable against a pitcher. But all 0-4 means is the pitcher either had a good day or the hitter had a bad day, it does not mean the hitter will always struggle against him


"Dusty destroys arms"
Have you seen the bullpen lately? He has wore them to the bone. And destroy is such a terminate term, some pitchers are just side lined for a few years like Harang & Wood. He did destroy Prior arm and the jury is still out on EV



"Dusty costs us close games"
just look at our teams RISP in those games and tell me who's fault it is.

Who hired the hitting coach, who makes out the lineup. Why do most players over time do worse on RISP the more time the spend around dusty and his coaches?

nux fan
08-09-2011, 06:11 PM
dusty should be sent to the skreep heap

justincredible
08-09-2011, 06:20 PM
i dont know what to say to that. you dont want Renteria there, but you're fine with someone batting .237 there? yea, he hits for a little power, but wouldnt you want that a little farther up in the lineup since we dont have a dependable leadoff batter?

You don't know what to say yet you said something anyway? Makes sense, I guess.

Frazier's started yesterday with a .265 BA. With his limited ABs one bad night can drop him 30 points. Had he gone 4-4 he'd have a .342 BA. He only has 38 ABs, kinda hard to judge his BA right now.

Skreep
08-09-2011, 06:27 PM
You don't know what to say yet you said something anyway? Makes sense, I guess.

Frazier's started yesterday with a .265 BA. With his limited ABs one bad night can drop him 30 points. Had he gone 4-4 he'd have a .342 BA. He only has 38 ABs, kinda hard to judge his BA right now.

my point exactly. you have no idea how hes going to pan out. he could be worse in the 2 hole. it would be hard, but it could happen

justincredible
08-09-2011, 06:31 PM
my point exactly. you have no idea how hes going to pan out. he could be worse in the 2 hole. it would be hard, but it could happen

What are you talking about with the 2 hole?

And of course I have no idea how he's going to pan out. No one does. The Reds need start playing for 2012, why not give Frazier an audition at cleanup when the games are essentially meaningless? If he fails, who cares? Everyone else has failed at cleanup, too.

Krawhitham
08-09-2011, 06:33 PM
bringing david weathers into a game was bad baseball. my wife would leave the room if he came into a game

You just proved you do not have a clue

In his last stint (2005-2009) with the Reds he never had an ERA over 4 and his last 2 season he had 3.25 & 3.32

He had a positive WAR every year in the run

in that time only 27% of Inherited Runners scored when the league average (2005-2009) was 35%

ervinsm84
08-09-2011, 06:50 PM
with the way this team is hitting? i dont fault him for trying it. no one would expect it, kind of like the spanish inquistion

what?

a. the decision to squeeze in that game was dumb even if he had the count right. it was extremely early in the game and maximizing runs scored at that point is more important than tacking one additional run.

b.cairo "had" a 3-1 count and had been one of the best hitters on the team at that time production wise

c. its not like the pitcher was up next.

d. cairos the ultimate pro and even a decent bunter, but how many times has he squeezed or practiced squeezing. id bank on hardly any.

the op is however correct that a lot of the dusty criticisms from random joe fan are poor logic and extreme short term over results orientedness. That doesnt mean that he does do not legit stupid things.

the man still thinks slow people who get on base a bunch are a problem bc they clog up the bases rofl. he may be great at managing egos, but strategically he is the worst at maximizing his teams winning % chances.

truthfully I think, and thought at the time last year, that he made a ton of terrible matchup decisions based on lol sample sizes and gut feelings/hunches. Reds were just lucky enough that either they worked last year or found a way to overcome it.

remember the guy who hits with 20 in blackjack and hits an ace did NOT make the right decision. This is the problem with evaluating baseball managers is even the "bad " decisions will not have a ridiculous impact on the outcome of an individual game, or the "bad choices" may run hot in a small sample, which just breeds more hunches and terrible logic and decision making

Jr's Boy
08-09-2011, 07:54 PM
Calling BRM7576.You are on deck.:D

markymark69
08-09-2011, 11:13 PM
This team has a +32 run differential, with that run differential and an average manager they should be 7 games over .500

Anything above the pythagorean expectation you credit to a good manager, anything below is a bad manager

The Reds are 5 games under .500, that is a 12 swing from pythagorean expectation. Dusty is not the worse manager but he is by no means a good or even average manager

In 18 years he has won a grand total of 1 Pennant, In 18 years his teams have finish in 1st place just 4 times and 2 of them were powered by Baroid.



It is not like he had many other options, But people are talking about Gomes over Hi-C, Patterson over younger guys, Taveras over younger guys, Rolen over anyone who could swing a bat with full motion



And he does you admit that, you have play the hot hand most sample sizes for BVP are too small to make a good judgment. Who cares if someone is 0-4 vs a pitcher, if the hitter goes 2-2 he is suddenly a .333 hitter vs the pitcher. It does take some guys more at bats before feeling comfortable against a pitcher. But all 0-4 means is the pitcher either had a good day or the hitter had a bad day, it does not mean the hitter will always struggle against him


Have you seen the bullpen lately? He has wore them to the bone. And destroy is such a terminate term, some pitchers are just side lined for a few years like Harang & Wood. He did destroy Prior arm and the jury is still out on EV



Who hired the hitting coach, who makes out the lineup. Why do most players over time do worse on RISP the more time the spend around dusty and his coaches?


To argue your point - nobody has said that Dusty was perfect and that he doesn't make some head-scratching moves - the original post didn't say that.

He has won the manager of the year three times and should have won it last year - interesting how that point is never brought up by those on the other side of the issue. They don't just give those out for any reason. I don't hear very many, if any Giant fans talking about how bad he was. Cub fans need to get over themselves. Dusty got them closer to the World Series than anyone has in 100 years. Even Sweet Lou didn't do that. The Reds weren't exactly beating down the post-season door prior to last year, either.

Gomes over Heisey - I concede that point, but not that Heisey is the end-all, be-all in a player. You're bringing up Patterson, dude hasn't been here for three years, get over that one.

Burning out the bullpen - is debateable at best. Many on here go and on and on and on about Dusty left (insert starter) in too long - if he had taken him out earlier than we could've, would've, should've won that game. You can't have it both ways. Not that he's perfect with how he handles the 'pen, but he also has who he has down there.

If Mark Prior doesn't blame Dusty why does anyone else get to? And even if that's the case - that's one pitcher out of hundreds that he has managed. .

Btw, Dusty didn't hire Brook Jacoby, the hitting coach, Dusty has been the manager four years, Jacoby, the hitting coach, five years. You can argue that he kept him around - but I have a suspicion those decisions may be out of Dusty's hands.

Vottomatic
08-10-2011, 12:21 AM
Defending Dusty is a crime in my book.

Worst strategical manager I've ever seen in my 46 years of life.

Skreep
08-10-2011, 12:49 AM
i figured i should post this in here.

Ondrusek was on pace for the least worked season in his career.
Nick Masset is on pace to match his workload from last season, which was the least work hes done in his career.

but keep throwing out the ol "DUSTY IS OVERUSING THE PEN" argument out there. if its repeated enough, it might stick. it worked for cubs fans

Vottomatic
08-10-2011, 12:52 AM
i figured i should post this in here.

Ondrusek was on pace for the least worked season in his career.
Nick Masset is on pace to match his workload from last season, which was the least work hes done in his career.

but keep throwing out the ol "DUSTY IS OVERUSING THE PEN" argument out there. if its repeated enough, it might stick. it worked for cubs fans

Are you dating Dusty's daughter?

DocRed
08-10-2011, 12:54 AM
Honestly I don't get the point of threads like this. There are Dusty Haters and Dusty Backers....and the two group will never agree on anything regarding him. Kind of like Democrats and Republicans.....

Skreep
08-10-2011, 12:55 AM
Are you dating Dusty's daughter?

i really, really hate stupid, uneducated cincy fans. they give us all a bad name. ask any major board which city has the worst fans and cincy is always high on that list.

Skreep
08-10-2011, 12:56 AM
Honestly I don't get the point of threads like this. There are Dusty Haters and Dusty Backers....and the two group will never agree on anything regarding him. Kind of like Democrats and Republicans.....

i'm not a dusty backer. the man needs to be held accountable for mistakes he makes, just like everyone else on the field. but when he is the only one getting blame, it takes the heat off of the players actually making the mistakes.

Vottomatic
08-10-2011, 12:59 AM
i really, really hate stupid, uneducated cincy fans. they give us all a bad name. ask any major board which city has the worst fans and cincy is always high on that list.

I too hate stupid fans.

And if you were a Cincy fan, you'd get the joke.

That joke has been used over and over and over and over and over. And you still don't get it.

Cincinnati fans do not have a bad reputation. You made that crap up.

Your stay on this board won't be long. Trust me. I see troll tracks behind every one of your posts.

bshall2105
08-10-2011, 12:59 AM
i really, really hate stupid, uneducated cincy fans. they give us all a bad name. ask any major board which city has the worst fans and cincy is always high on that list.

You will not be taken seriously by signing up today and calling a guy that has been here for two years uneducated.

Vottomatic
08-10-2011, 01:01 AM
You will not be taken seriously by signing up today and calling a guy that has been here for two years uneducated.

:beerme: :thumbup:

Skreep
08-10-2011, 01:03 AM
:beerme: :thumbup:

you two are cute. but did you see where i quoted him and called him stupid? i'm talking about in GENERAL. you know, like people everywhere, on everyboard, and in every office. the people who you hate talking to because when they complain, its obvious they have no clue what they are complaining about. and let me know where a thought out post like my first one reeks of trolling?

bshall2105
08-10-2011, 01:16 AM
you two are cute. but did you see where i quoted him and called him stupid? i'm talking about in GENERAL. you know, like people everywhere, on everyboard, and in every office. the people who you hate talking to because when they complain, its obvious they have no clue what they are complaining about. and let me know where a thought out post like my first one reeks of trolling?

You have no idea if any of us know what we're complaining about or not. This is your first day reading this board, and acting like you are the most knowledgeable person in the world will bring trolling accusations.

Skreep
08-10-2011, 01:21 AM
You have no idea if any of us know what we're complaining about or not. This is your first day reading this board, and acting like you are the most knowledgeable person in the world will bring trolling accusations.

when my op is asking if people here post the same crap i see everywhere else, then posting examples of what i see all the time and backing it up with facts. yea, that reeeeeks of trolling.

Stray
08-10-2011, 01:34 AM
He gets a lot criticism on here that's for sure.

What I've learned is this. There's always a minor leaguer that is better than a struggling starter. Every move that doesn't work is clearly a stupid move. He won't play young players. Yada yada yada, stuff like that. All you need to look at is how we demanded Heisey get more playing time and then moved on to the new flavor of the month 'Yonder Alonso' when Heisey hit .200 for a month.

That's not to say Dusty has done a good job this year, I think he's sucked pretty hard. From the FO down throughout the entire organization....it's been a collective effort. Either way, it doesn't really matter. When you're a manager and your team isn't playing up to expectations you're going to get a lot of heat, whether it's fair or unfair doesn't matter.

I think our problems are centered around a flawed lineup with a lot of pieces that don't seem to fit. Mix that up with a below average pitching in a launchpad of a stadium...then top it with around 30 1 run losses and a million dudes LOB and you get our season.

joshua
08-11-2011, 05:26 AM
If you don't like people talking bad about Dusty, think most of us are stupid and want to talk **** about Reds fans being some of the worst in baseball then do all of us a favor...delete your account, GTFO and never come back.

But you won't do that because you're nothing but a troll.

Is there an ignore feature on here? I don't know because I haven't had to use it until now.

FireDusty
08-11-2011, 09:44 AM
You = Wrong
Me = Right

Dusty Baker will either be fired this offseason, or let go after next.

Take it to the bank.

That is all.

kfm
08-11-2011, 01:44 PM
He gets a lot criticism on here that's for sure.

What I've learned is this. There's always a minor leaguer that is better than a struggling starter. Every move that doesn't work is clearly a stupid move. He won't play young players. Yada yada yada, stuff like that. All you need to look at is how we demanded Heisey get more playing time and then moved on to the new flavor of the month 'Yonder Alonso' when Heisey hit .200 for a month.

That's not to say Dusty has done a good job this year, I think he's sucked pretty hard. From the FO down throughout the entire organization....it's been a collective effort. Either way, it doesn't really matter. When you're a manager and your team isn't playing up to expectations you're going to get a lot of heat, whether it's fair or unfair doesn't matter.

I think our problems are centered around a flawed lineup with a lot of pieces that don't seem to fit. Mix that up with a below average pitching in a launchpad of a stadium...then top it with around 30 1 run losses and a million dudes LOB and you get our season.

I love this post. If you refuse to blame only Dusty then you are a dusty supporter who may have dated a family member in the past. The entire organization has stunk this year and Dusty has made a number of head scratchers but I think this post hits the nail on the head of what the Reds have been this year. No leadoff hitter, no fourth place hitter, starters who dont go deep enough, and are not good enough, and hitters who never get the big hit and a stagnant front office who either cant or refuses to make a move. Dusty bashers ignore all of this and just blame dusty, but the rest of us put blame where it should be on the entire organization including Dusty. On this board that makes you a Dusty supporter, you know its the old "you are either with us or against us argument."

Skreep
08-11-2011, 02:14 PM
If you don't like people talking bad about Dusty, think most of us are stupid and want to talk **** about Reds fans being some of the worst in baseball then do all of us a favor...delete your account, GTFO and never come back.

But you won't do that because you're nothing but a troll.

Is there an ignore feature on here? I don't know because I haven't had to use it until now.

lol, your entire post is incorrect. let me know where i said anything you mentioned. please ignore me, i will miss your 9 posts a year.

LeDoux
08-12-2011, 12:48 AM
lol, your entire post is incorrect. let me know where i said anything you mentioned. please ignore me, i will miss your 9 posts a year.

So who were you before you signed up as Skreep? It really makes no sense to call out the guy that has been a member for 5 years and has several times more posts unless you are more familiar with this forum than you are letting on.

You believe Baker has done an adequate job. That's fine. There are those on here who agree with you. But I am not sure why you insist everyone else should see things your way. I suspect you realize this has been a longstanding debate in the Sundeck. Why not listen to the rationale behind other's opinions before you attack them? I am pretty sure that approach will win you more friends in the longrun - regardless of your position on Dusty Baker as manager.

Skreep
08-12-2011, 01:04 AM
So who were you before you signed up as Skreep? It really makes no sense to call out the guy that has been a member for 5 years and has several times more posts unless you are more familiar with this forum than you are letting on.

You believe Baker has done an adequate job. That's fine. There are those on here who agree with you. But I am not sure why you insist everyone else should see things your way. I suspect you realize this has been a longstanding debate in the Sundeck. Why not listen to the rationale behind other's opinions before you attack them? I am pretty sure that approach will win you more friends in the longrun - regardless of your position on Dusty Baker as manager.

i used to be on here years ago, but i forgot my login and i cant access the email i used to sign up. i've been on other boards for years, and i came here to ask if this is just like every other reds board ive been on. then i mentioned the arguments i hear a lot, and said my piece on them. I've heard a ton of different arguments on blaming dusty, and quite a few of them have been disproven using stats. i dont insist on seeing thing my way. if you have an argument, then find something to back up your argument. just stating the same crap over and over again without evidence to back up your claim means you have no idea what you are talking about. Those are the people i cant stand. i never attacked anyone personally, and if someone felt i did, then apparently my argument hit home for them.

Since some people still dont understand my position on dusty, ill spell it out for you. Baseball managers are glorified for someone who really doesnt do much. It shouldnt matter where in the lineup you're batting. If you are being paid major league money, then you better be able to perform at a major league level. Blaming the manager for a loss, while the team as a whole left 10 men on base, is a silly notion. You are blaming someone who did not have a direct impact on the game. The players are out there playing, the coach just writes a number by your name, and thats when you go to bat. Before all the "I HATE DUSTY FOR SOME REASON" threads came up where im at, i couldnt care less about the man. I hate people who make up claims out of thin air. If i am going to take the time to back up my argument with evidence, you should too, and if my argument is incorrect, ill accept your stance.

LeDoux
08-12-2011, 03:09 AM
i used to be on here years ago, but i forgot my login and i cant access the email i used to sign up. i've been on other boards for years, and i came here to ask if this is just like every other reds board ive been on. then i mentioned the arguments i hear a lot, and said my piece on them. I've heard a ton of different arguments on blaming dusty, and quite a few of them have been disproven using stats. i dont insist on seeing thing my way. if you have an argument, then find something to back up your argument. just stating the same crap over and over again without evidence to back up your claim means you have no idea what you are talking about. Those are the people i cant stand. i never attacked anyone personally, and if someone felt i did, then apparently my argument hit home for them.

Since some people still dont understand my position on dusty, ill spell it out for you. Baseball managers are glorified for someone who really doesnt do much. It shouldnt matter where in the lineup you're batting. If you are being paid major league money, then you better be able to perform at a major league level. Blaming the manager for a loss, while the team as a whole left 10 men on base, is a silly notion. You are blaming someone who did not have a direct impact on the game. The players are out there playing, the coach just writes a number by your name, and thats when you go to bat. Before all the "I HATE DUSTY FOR SOME REASON" threads came up where im at, i couldnt care less about the man. I hate people who make up claims out of thin air. If i am going to take the time to back up my argument with evidence, you should too, and if my argument is incorrect, ill accept your stance.


I believe Mr. Baker should lose his job, but I did not reach this conclusion because I believe he is to blame for all the misfortunes of 2011. There is plenty of blame to go around on this team and Dusty is only part of the problem.

However, I do believe Dusty should be let go because of his poor field management and missing "esprit de corps" (low morale) of the ballclub. Neither of these things are easily quantifiable. As I watch and listen to games I notice how many times Dusty does a double switch with no real advantage, plays Gomes vs. RHP, brings in an struggling and overworked reliever, etc. We talk about them in the game threads quite often. But
how do I assign an objective value to decisions like these? I cannot know what would have happened otherwise. What statistics reveal that a team that believes that they have no hope for this season? I don't know of any. We are forced to rely upon our own intuitions at this point. And my intuition believes it is time to cut ties.

I do not Blame Dusty for all the ills of the season. But I do believe he has hurt the team and that is enough to fire him; and politically, between now and SP is the best time to do it.

Skreep
08-12-2011, 03:43 AM
I believe Mr. Baker should lose his job, but I did not reach this conclusion because I believe he is to blame for all the misfortunes of 2011. There is plenty of blame to go around on this team and Dusty is only part of the problem.

However, I do believe Dusty should be let go because of his poor field management and missing "esprit de corps" (low morale) of the ballclub. Neither of these things are easily quantifiable. As I watch and listen to games I notice how many times Dusty does a double switch with no real advantage, plays Gomes vs. RHP, brings in an struggling and overworked reliever, etc. We talk about them in the game threads quite often. But
how do I assign an objective value to decisions like these? I cannot know what would have happened otherwise. What statistics reveal that a team that believes that they have no hope for this season? I don't know of any. We are forced to rely upon our own intuitions at this point. And my intuition believes it is time to cut ties.

I do not Blame Dusty for all the ills of the season. But I do believe he has hurt the team and that is enough to fire him; and politically, between now and SP is the best time to do it.

If everyone who didnt like dusty expressed it in the way you did, i wouldnt mind it one bit. that was the best argument against dusty that didnt have any supporting facts i have seen. Thanks.

Last year we were helped by batters hitting in crucial times and driving in runs. This year, our clutch his almost non existant. Stubbs K's and Bruce's streakiness isnt helping much either.

smixsell
08-12-2011, 03:44 PM
Some of this is true but...

Renteria bats 2nd nearly every time he plays. Stupidity.

He will play a guy based on "match ups." This has included a guy being 2-4 or 4-7 or some small sample size against a certain pitcher instead of just playing the better or hotter player more frequently.

He doesn't reralize how bad guys like BP and Stubbs are against righies but yet he led Stubbs off most of the year and bats BP cleanup no matter what, so his "match up" talk doesn't hold water.

Alot of things are not Dusty's fault but he sure is an absolute moron. Ask Giants and Cubs fans. Ok forget the Cubs. :-)

P.S. Corey Patterson playing at all, Janish also batting 2nd, etc and so forth.

Spot on. Dusty is a moronic "anti-manager." Some (most?) on this board don't know enough about baseball to spot his many egregious tactical errors.

And BTW Dusty is absolutely moronic at handling the pitching staff. Not "burning out arms," but knowing when to take a pitcher out and when to leave him in. Absolute idiot in this department.

With a decent ML manager the Reds would have been in first by 8-10 games by the All Star break.

nux fan
08-12-2011, 03:53 PM
exactly true, the smarter a fan is the more egregious the idiocy of dusty is revealed

Stray
08-12-2011, 03:59 PM
To everyone complaining about Renteria batting 2nd, just curious who you would prefer there?

It's not like he's been an everyday player till Cozart got injured, and he's been hitting over .300 recently. Right now I think having him 2nd is a good thing.


Spot on. Dusty is a moronic "anti-manager." Some (most?) on this board don't know enough about baseball to spot his many egregious tactical errors.

And BTW Dusty is absolutely moronic at handling the pitching staff. Not "burning out arms," but knowing when to take a pitcher out and when to leave him in. Absolute idiot in this department.

Our bullpen was overworked in the first part of the season because our starters were horrible. We're paying for that now. If our starters can't go 110 pitches and 7 full innings (in a game where they're pitching well) then we have bigger problems. I agree he's left a few guys in too long, but at some point our guys need to go deep into games so we don't kill our pen

With a decent ML manager the Reds would have been in first by 8-10 games by the All Star break.

Do you really believe that a manager accounts for that many games?

realistic
08-12-2011, 10:12 PM
how many other teams with 4 all stars are under .500?

its a managers job to win games, he has more than enough talent to win the NL Central. hes simply failed

kfm
08-12-2011, 10:49 PM
how many other teams with 4 all stars are under .500?

its a managers job to win games, he has more than enough talent to win the NL Central. hes simply failed

Come on man. Scott Rolen was on the all star team but he did not play at an all star level at all. Jay Bruce had an all star month and has been pedestrian the rest of the season. If these two guys had truly been playing at an all star level they would not be where they are. I could care less if they keep or can Dusty but you have to admit this argument is weak. They had two legitimate all stars.

realistic
08-12-2011, 11:01 PM
Come on man. Scott Rolen was on the all star team but he did not play at an all star level at all. Jay Bruce had an all star month and has been pedestrian the rest of the season. If these two guys had truly been playing at an all star level they would not be where they are. I could care less if they keep or can Dusty but you have to admit this argument is weak. They had two legitimate all stars.

its not an "argument". its a fact, this team is too talented to be 4 games under .500 with even an average manager. dusty has not done a good job, the team has underachieved by all accounts. its no secret.

kfm
08-12-2011, 11:09 PM
exactly true, the smarter a fan is the more egregious the idiocy of dusty is revealed

I love the ole you don't agree with me so you are stupid argument. I don't think there are many people who are not emotionally invested in the Reds who believe that the reds with no leadoff hitter, no fourth place hitter, typical Homer bailey, one month Jay Bruce, Old Scott Rolen, Bad Bronson Arroyo, inconsistent Travis Wood, lousy offensive and defensive shortstop play, and starters who cant pitch deep enough into a game so that their relievers don't get burned out and hitters who cant get a clutch hit in a close game to save their mama's lives absolutely don't matter whatsoever and have no impact on where they are in the standings. All of that has been trumped by Dusty batting his shorstop second, pitching chapman in a game when they were behind, and putting on a squeeze bunt with two strikes all things that were stupid . If you actually believe that then do not post that the Reds need to trade for this guy or that guy or sign this guy or that guy because all they need to do to win this division by 8 to 10 games is fire Dusty. Last years team won 91 games and over and over people came to this board and posted that Dusty lost a game and that he was responsible for at least half of the Reds losses last year. So by the logic of the smart people the reds last year should have won`126 games last year. Any one know the most games the big red machine, or the 27 yankees won in a season?

kfm
08-12-2011, 11:15 PM
its not an "argument". its a fact, this team is too talented to be 4 games under .500 with even an average manager. dusty has not done a good job, the team has underachieved by all accounts. its no secret.

Yes, your point of view is technically correct, but on the field of play it is not even close to being accurate. These guys were all stars, but you know that only Phillips and Votto deserved to be all stars. My point is not to let Dusty off the hook, but my point is that if you just ignore the flaws on this team that go way beyond the manager get ready to be dissappointed when Dusty is finally gone and this team is still hovering in this range. It has too many holes, I trully don't understand how you guys cannot see this. If you really feel this way then you will be happy to have Rolen back at third next year and you don't think this team needs to make any moves because nothing else matters and it is Dusty. So don't post lets trade for this guy or sign this guy because none of that matters, it is just getting rid of Dusty. I feel like I am talking to a buddy of mine who just despised George W. Bush and all of his terroist "scare tactics". One day I just told him, you know you dont' have to make a choice. You can hate George Bush and feel terroism is an actual threat, you don't have to choose. So I say this to you too, you can hate Dusty and still recognize that this team has some serious flaws you don't have to make a choice.

realistic
08-12-2011, 11:30 PM
i dont hate Dusty at all, i think hes a great guy and probably fun to play for. he's just not doing a good job. the goal of the game is to win, and the Reds are not winning. its the managers JOB to fix the holes and make the team produce. Bobby Cox would have this team 15 games above .500 , so would Larussa. i dont see why you dont understand this. hes had 1 winning season in the past 6 years as a manager. he won some in the 90's while Barry Bonds was dominating the game in a weak division beating up on two expansion teams.

kfm
08-12-2011, 11:38 PM
i dont hate Dusty at all, i think hes a great guy and probably fun to play for. he's just not doing a good job. the goal of the game is to win, and the Reds are not winning. its the managers JOB to fix the holes and make the team produce. Bobby Cox would have this team 15 games above .500 , so would Larussa. i dont see why you dont understand this. hes had 1 winning season in the past 6 years as a manager. he won some in the 90's while Barry Bonds was dominating the game in a weak division beating up on two expansion teams.

I am sorry, but I just don't think that is a realistic point of view, no pun intended. My argument actually has very little to do with Dusty Baker but more to do with the holes on this team, I just cant ignore them or pretend someone else can magically fix them. They would probably be better with Tony Larussa because Dave Duncan would have these pitchers performing better and better pitching always means more wins. You must believe that with a different manager these players would hit much more in the clutch in close games because it has been their inability to get the big hit in close games that has them in this situation. Maybe things are just evening out from last year when they got so many big hits and big two out hits. Whatever the case, the problems are bigger than Dusty. And for the record, it is the GM's job to fix the holes on a team and you clearly never said you hated Dusty. I know many on this board do and feel very comfortable demeaning his intelligence constantly.