Myths

[TRF]

Myth 1

--Dusty Baker has vet love. He prefers vets to kids and stunts development...

Facts, When Dusty has had talented kids, He's played them. He just really hasn't had that many talented kids in his career as a manager. He's managed teams with significant payrolls and resources to get free agents. Does he move as fast as I'd like in evaluating young players? probably not, but IMO his long term view of players and clubhouse chemistry is spot on.

Myth 2

--Walt Jocketty's ability as a GM is the reason his teams have been so successful.

errrr. ummm... hard to prove or disprove. The success of his teams seems more tied to Dave Duncan than anyone else. I mean Kyle freaking Lohse has a 3.45 ERA right now with a 1.14 WHIP. That is ALL Duncan. If Jocketty were somehow to bring LaGenius and Duncan to Cincinnati, IMO the pitching would improve so much that the Reds could with the division. offensively, they match up well with the Cards and Brewers.

Walt's best deals are when he spots an inequity. McGuire, Edmonds etc. He hasn't seen one in his tenure in Cincinnati. The Reds COULD have gotten Cliff Lee last year, but that would have been a 1 year rental. They possibly could have topped the Phillies for Roy Halladay. Perhaps they could have overpaid for Werth.

Tough to say either way. I do believe he prefers established players to youth, but that he's never had a farm as stacked as the Reds is right now.

Myth 3

--Bronson Arroyo is untradeable.

huge myth. It just depends on what the Reds need. Is it an influx of talent or salary relief or roster flexibility. I think you could put him on waivers today and he'd be claimed. Very likely by the Yankees, just to pitch him against the Red Sox.

But the Reds would have to commit to certain roster desgnations, something i don't think Walt is capable of. I think trading Haren made him want to hoard pitchers and Ankiel flaming out has made him gunshy when it comes to promoting them.

Myth 4

--Joey Votto is a headcase/doesn't want to stay in Cincinnati

The truth is simpler... Walt gave him the very best contract he could get. It made Votto rich without locking him up long term. It was a show of good faith on Jocketty's part, but it was a huge risk. It allows the Reds the option to offer him arbitration (i think) and get the pick. I think Votto just wants to win. If the opportunity to do so is in Toronto, then that is where he will be.

I'm sure there are more myths, many purported by this messageboard. Some won't agree with me that these are myths. That's ok. but haven't we gotten tired of the same stories beaten to death?

[reds1869]

My favorite myth is that the Reds were founded in 1869. I like it so much that I immortalize it in my user name.

I largely agree with your post, though I think it is fair to say that Bronson is virtually untradeable. It is my understanding the Reds would have to pay out his deferred salary as soon as they trade him; that would be a tough pill to swallow.

[westofyou]

My favorite myth is that the Reds were founded in 1869. I like it so much that I immortalize it in my user name.


Yep, oldest team in the NL... if you don't count Atlanta, Chicago, LA, San Francisco and Philadelphia.

[Homer Bailey]

If Arroyo is traded, his deferred payments are paid straight up. Not to mention that he will soon have 10 and 5.

[Brutus]

Bronson is definitely untradeable.

His salary would be hard enough to move as is, but when $15 million in deferred payments become payable as normal salary if he's traded, that means he'd have to be paid over $13 million per year.

No one will pay that.

[Always Red]

Yep, oldest team in the NL... if you don't count Atlanta, Chicago, LA, San Francisco and Philadelphia.

One could make an easy case that those 1869 Red Stockings are now the Atlanta Braves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnati_Reds#The_original_.22Red_Stockings.22_. 281866.E2.80.931889.29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanta_Braves#History

[TRF]

Bronson is definitely untradeable.

His salary would be hard enough to move as is, but when $15 million in deferred payments become payable as normal salary if he's traded, that means he'd have to be paid over $13 million per year.

No one will pay that.

If Hank Steinbrenner thought getting Arroyo makes the Yankees AL champs over Boston... In a heartbeat. Cashman might have a stroke in the process, but he's be overruled.

Also, does that apply if he's waived or just traded?

[westofyou]

One could make an easy case that those 1869 Red Stockings are now the Atlanta Braves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnati_Reds#The_original_.22Red_Stockings.22_. 281866.E2.80.931889.29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanta_Braves#History

They could, but then I could also say the 1887 Detroit Wolverines were the Buffalo Bisons too because of the “The Big Four” they acquired.

It's debate worthy but the ownership group changed and that's a linchpin.

[Brutus]

If Hank Steinbrenner thought getting Arroyo makes the Yankees AL champs over Boston... In a heartbeat. Cashman might have a stroke in the process, but he's be overruled.

Also, does that apply if he's waived or just traded?

It applies if he's assigned in any capacity -- waivers, traded, etc.

I am not saying the money alone would make him untradeable, but he's not a pitcher that's good enough to precipitate any team taking on that salary. Any pitcher making $13 million would have to be a bonafide ace to be traded for. Short of the Reds picking up most of that salary, there simply isn't any way a team would have interest in Arroyo.

[PuffyPig]

Yep, oldest team in the NL... if you don't count Atlanta, Chicago, LA, San Francisco and Philadelphia.

I belive it is stated that they are the oldest professional team in baseball.

Not oldest team.

[Mario-Rijo]

Lord knows I agree with ya on the Walt thing, it's always been my point of view. He is a good GM because he is everything an owner/manager wants in a GM except for the talent evaluation part IMO. He kind of allows his manager to construct the team in theory and then goes gets what his manager wants/needs.

Arroyo, yeah I'd probably agree that basically any player is tradeable. Pretty much agree with your view of Votto as well.

Dusty OTOH I disagree with in a sense. Dusty prefers a known commodity over the unknown (to him). Established (over the hill or not) Vet over up and coming young vet, both over youngster (no matter how good the youngster might be), youngster over more experienced youngster etc. Prefers experience over talent.

ON the Reds and 1869, why would Reds fans of all people have a problem with it if no one else seems to care? The Cincy club was the 1st and we are the current Cincy club, good enough for me.

[westofyou]

I belive it is stated that they are the oldest professional team in baseball.

Not oldest team.
Then that's wrong too, they have zero connection to the 1869 team, they didn't even have a team for a few years.

First professional team... yes.

Anything else is a myth.

[KronoRed]

There is nothing wrong with being tied for the 5th oldest team in the league, never understood the 'spiritual' bit to claim the mythical oldest trophy.

You don't see the Mets claiming the 1876 New York Mutuals as an ancestor.

[LoganBuck]

Browns fans ignore the fact that the Ravens won a Super Bowl. Deep down, I know it bugs them, but they just treat their existence like there was a short hiatus during the late nineties. Earnest Byner still haunts them today.

Same thing for the Reds.

[Red in Chicago]

Do those in Boston still look at the Braves as one of their own? Anyone really following them in Milwaukee? Franchises that move city to city bother me when they reference things from their past. I bet there aren't many in DC thinking how good Gary Carter was back in the day.

[camisadelgolf]

Myth 3

--Bronson Arroyo is untradeable.

huge myth. It just depends on what the Reds need. Is it an influx of talent or salary relief or roster flexibility. I think you could put him on waivers today and he'd be claimed. Very likely by the Yankees, just to pitch him against the Red Sox.

But the Reds would have to commit to certain roster desgnations, something i don't think Walt is capable of. I think trading Haren made him want to hoard pitchers and Ankiel flaming out has made him gunshy when it comes to promoting them.
What player could conceivably be offered for Arroyo to warrant the $13M paycheck the Reds would need to write just to trade him?

[wlf WV]

Well 3 out of 4 aint bad TRF(so far).I personally agree about Votto.He seemed genuinely candid about his contract and intentions.

[GADawg]

if Votto wants to win why would he go to Toronto? Even with many aging stars I don't see NY or Boston doing the rebuilding thing anytime soon

[wolfboy]

Myth 2

I mean Kyle freaking Lohse has a 3.45 ERA right now with a 1.14 WHIP. That is ALL Duncan. If Jocketty were somehow to bring LaGenius and Duncan to Cincinnati, IMO the pitching would improve so much that the Reds could with the division. offensively, they match up well with the Cards and Brewers

I'm not buying the Duncan sorcery, especially when it comes to Lohse. Lohse's K/9 is a strikeout under his career average, his xFIP is much higher than his ERA, and he's the beneficiary of a very low BABIP.

[hebroncougar]

if Votto wants to win why would he go to Toronto? Even with many aging stars I don't see NY or Boston doing the rebuilding thing anytime soon

Toronto is building a monster up there. I'm betting their payroll increases significantly the next few years. After all, they will have a whole country behind them.

[Blitz Dorsey]

What does Walt really do? The scouting department/draft is all turned over to Buckley and his staff. Dusty has full reign over the roster it seems. There's no one to tell Dusty "Hey, Johnnie B., never do anything absurd like bat Paul Janish in the two hole. Never. I know you have this hangup on always wanting to bat the SS in the two hole (not a myth) but it can't happen when we're unfortunate enough to have Soft J in the lineup."

Jocketty is still living off what he did in St. Louis. And the irony there is that he was basically fired by the Cardinals. He made a few great deals and signings when he was with the Cardinals (McGwire, Edmonds, Carpenter) but he hasn't done much of anything since joining the Reds.

So, is that a myth or the truth? Walt Jocketty hasn't done much of anything since taking over as Cincinnati's GM. I say it's the truth. There was the Rolen deal and the Chapman signing. Then? Crickets, at least in terms of important moves.

[Blitz Dorsey]

if Votto wants to win why would he go to Toronto? Even with many aging stars I don't see NY or Boston doing the rebuilding thing anytime soon

Yeah, if Votto "wants to win" good luck with all that going to the AL East unless you have "New York" or "Red Sox" on your uniform. His best bet to win is to stay in Cincinnati and be the leader of this incredible crop of young players we have coming up in the system. (Unless he wants to go to NY or Boston ... which would then give him his best chance to win. But they have Teixiera and Gonzalez, respectively, tied up for a while at first base.)

And hey Joey, how did "going home" work out for Ken Griffey Jr?

[Blitz Dorsey]

BTW... Myth or Reality:

Ken Griffey Jr. really told a reporter one time: "Stretching? I don't stretch. Does a cheetah stretch before it chases its prey?"

[westofyou]

Do those in Boston still look at the Braves as one of their own? Anyone really following them in Milwaukee? Franchises that move city to city bother me when they reference things from their past. I bet there aren't many in DC thinking how good Gary Carter was back in the day.

That has nothing to do with it.

The fact is the franchises have been running continuously since they started. While the Reds were not a member of any league prior to the NL and then got kicked out of the NL and then entered the AA with a different owner (and players) then they had when they were in the NL.

[Blitz Dorsey]

It's all semantics. Cincinnati was home of the first professional baseball team. Was that team the "Reds" that we still have today? No. But the fact remains that the Cincinnati Red Stockings were the first professional baseball team in the world.

So, were the "Reds" the first team ever? No. But Cincinnati is still home to the first.

[Blitz Dorsey]

(Disclaimer: This is a joke, all meant in good fun, not mean-spirited, and I will delete it if anyone wants me to.)

WestofYou: Can you share some of your first-hand recollections from the Red Stockings' season-opener in 1869? Thanks.

[westofyou]

It's all semantics. Cincinnati was home of the first professional baseball team. Was that team the "Reds" that we still have today? No. But the fact remains that the Cincinnati Red Stockings were the first professional baseball team in the world.

So, were the "Reds" the first team ever? No. But Cincinnati is still home to the first.

That's been noted, the claim that is a myth is that the Reds are the oldest team in baseball.

Which they are not.

[Blitz Dorsey]

That's been noted, the claim that is a myth is that the Reds are the oldest team in baseball.

Which they are not.

I get that. Which of the existing teams are the "oldest"? The Braves from their Boston days?

[westofyou]

I get that. Which of the existing teams are the "oldest"? The Braves from their Boston days?



Chicago Cubs 1876 (NL)
Atlanta Braves 1876 (NL)
St. Louis Cardinals 1882 (AA) (NL) 1892
Pittsburgh Pirates 1882 (AA) (NL) 1887
Cincinnati Reds 1882 (AA) (NL) 1890
San Francisco Giants 1883 (NL)
Philadelphia Phillies 1883 (NL)
Los Angeles Dodgers 1884 (AA) (NL) 1890

[westofyou]

(Disclaimer: This is a joke, all meant in good fun, not mean-spirited, and I will delete it if anyone wants me to.)

WestofYou: Can you share some of your first-hand recollections from the Red Stockings' season-opener in 1869? Thanks.

Alas I can't, I was too busy fighting the suffrage movement in Wyoming that summer.

[Blitz Dorsey]

Alas I can't, I was too busy fighting the suffrage movement in Wyoming that summer.

Ha! You're a good sport.

:beerme:

[Blitz Dorsey]

BTW: The Griffey stretching/cheetah comment is not a myth ... well, unless a reporter made it up. But that was a published quote. Kind of gives some insight on all the hamstring injuries. The truth about Junior is that he just let his body go and didn't work hard enough. Yes, he also had some bad luck in the injury department, but I submit some of those injuries could have been prevented if he had been a harder worker in the weight room and just stayed in better shape in general. He was getting flat out chubby soon after arriving in Cincinnati -- had a double chin and everything.

Anyway, I've heard some people say that all of that was a myth ("Does a cheetah stretch before it chases its prey?") or that if Griffey did say it he was joking. But the writer insisted Griff was being dead serious. Kind of like, "I'm too good to stretch."

[Griffey012]

BTW: The Griffey stretching/cheetah comment is not a myth ... well, unless a reporter made it up. But that was a published quote. Kind of gives some insight on all the hamstring injuries. The truth about Junior is that he just let his body go and didn't work hard enough. Yes, he also had some bad luck in the injury department, but I submit some of those injuries could have been prevented if he had been a harder worker in the weight room and just stayed in better shape in general. He was getting flat out chubby soon after arriving in Cincinnati -- had a double chin and everything.

Anyway, I've heard some people say that all of that was a myth ("Does a cheetah stretch before it chases its prey?") or that if Griffey did say it he was joking. But the writer insisted Griff was being dead serious. Kind of like, "I'm too good to stretch."

Very likely 100% true. That was a big reason he was deemed "The Natural" He just went out and played, hit, made great catches, etc. Wasn't into weight lifting, stretching, and all that. That's not to say he didn't practice and put in time, he just put in his time in the cage, on tees, doing soft toss, shagging flys, basically just doing baseball activities.

[nate]

Very likely 100% true. That was a big reason he was deemed "The Natural" He just went out and played, hit, made great catches, etc. Wasn't into weight lifting, stretching, and all that. That's not to say he didn't practice and put in time, he just put in his time in the cage, on tees, doing soft toss, shagging flys, basically just doing baseball activities.

Very likely, 100% untrue.

[Griffey012]

Very likely, 100% untrue.

Any reason why you say this?

[nate]

Any reason why you say this?

I don't believe Griffey was lazy or not a hard worker during his rehab time with the Reds. I believe he did his best to come back from his injury and it was remarkable he made the recovery that he did.

[Griffey012]

I don't believe Griffey was lazy or not a hard worker during his rehab time with the Reds. I believe he did his best to come back from his injury and it was remarkable he made the recovery that he did.

I was not at all trying to imply he was not a hard worker. He simply went about his training and work differently than the norm. As I stated he put in his time in the cage, on the tee, doing soft toss, working on fielding, working on getting better jumps, etc...his training was baseball activities, not weight lifting and speed training.

Once he was in Cincinnati and began to get bit by the injury bug he started doing some weight lifting and and body related exercises.

During his heyday in Seattle, I doubt he touched a weight, except for maybe a weighted bat.

[nate]

I was not at all trying to imply he was not a hard worker. He simply went about his training and work differently than the norm. As I stated he put in his time in the cage, on the tee, doing soft toss, working on fielding, working on getting better jumps, etc...his training was baseball activities, not weight lifting and speed training.

Once he was in Cincinnati and began to get bit by the injury bug he started doing some weight lifting and and body related exercises.

During his heyday in Seattle, I doubt he touch a weight, except for maybe a weighted bat.

I doubt you, I or anyone except for those close to him knows what sort of preparations he made in order to play baseball at amongst the highest levels in the history of the game.

[REDREAD]

Jocketty is still living off what he did in St. Louis..

He brought us the first division title in a long time last year.
Jocketty addtions: Ramon, Rolen, OCab, Rhodes, Leake, etc played a big part in that.
He also held and played the right players in the farm system.
For those that claim "any GM could've won the division last year".. how do you explain this season's flop, with basically the same roster?

The Reds will never have enough money to be a sure thing. They will always be dependent on having a few things fall into place. Walt is doing a good job.

It's kind of early to evaluate the long term contracts he gave out over the winter. Cueto and Cairo are looking good.. Bruce might be a disappointment (too early to tell)

[PuffyPig]

It's kind of early to evaluate the long term contracts he gave out over the winter. Cueto and Cairo are looking good.. Bruce might be a disappointment (too early to tell)

If Bruce continues hitting around a .850 OPS, his contract will be a bargain.

[camisadelgolf]

What player could conceivably be offered for Arroyo to warrant the $13M paycheck the Reds would need to write just to trade him?

[Chip R]

I get that. Which of the existing teams are the "oldest"? The Braves from their Boston days? The Braves can trace their lineaage to the early 1870s. However it is not accurate to say that the Cincinnati Red StockIngs club moved en masse to Boston. That would be like saying that if the Pirates folded and several of those players went to the Mets the Mets would be the Pirates. The Red Stockings were originally part of a local social club known as the Cincinnati Club and they started playing base ball even before Harry Wright came to town. The Red Stockings nickname came because local sporting goods merchant and base ball player Harry Ellard fitted the club with knickers and red stockings. Most teams wore long pants. Pretty much all the top clubs were part of social clubs but to gain a competitive advantage the top clubs would hire players to play for them and pay them under the table. By the late 1860s there were clubs who paid all their players under the table. In the winter before the 1869 season, the governing body of base ball clubs said it was OK to pay players above the table. The Cincinnati Club was the only one to take advantage of the new rule. They didn't exactly sign an all-star team. Harry Wright came over to the Cincinnati club a couple of years before as a Cricket instructor. Base ball turned out to be more popular than Cricket and he formed the Cincinnati Club (Red Stockings) into a good - but not elite - club. The addition of his brother George - the top player of the day - plus some other additions made the club into one of the best - of not the best - in the country. At the end of 1869, the team made the Cincinnati club approximately $1.25. In 1870, they continued undefeated until they were beaten in Brooklyn. That took a lot of the shine off the club locally and subsequent losses didn't help either. At the end of the year the Cincinnati Club big wigs decided not to have a professional club for 1870 because they were losing money and the glory of the 1869 season had faded. The players were all free agents. About 4-5 - including both Wright brothers - went to Boston and the rest went to Washington. So from 1871 to 1876 there was no professional base ball team in Cincinnati. Cincinnati was a charter member of the National League in 1876 but were forced out due to the NL not wanting alcohol served in the parks and a jump in ticket proces to $.50 from $.25. Cincinnati was prominent in founding the American Association - a major league - but after a few years, it gets a bit murky until the American Association and Players League disbanded.

[reds1869]

19th Century baseball can be extremely messy to explain. I highly recommend John Thorn's recent book Baseball in the Garden of Eden for anyone interested in the era. It is the best I've read so far.

[CySeymour]

19th Century baseball can be extremely messy to explain. I highly recommend John Thorn's recent book Baseball in the Garden of Eden for anyone interested in the era. It is the best I've read so far.

Thanks for the suggestion. Gonna check it out.

[Blitz Dorsey]

Thanks for the suggestion. Gonna check it out.

Ditto that.

[WebScorpion]

19th Century baseball can be extremely messy to explain. I highly recommend John Thorn's recent book Baseball in the Garden of Eden for anyone interested in the era. It is the best I've read so far.Baseball Inna-Gadda-Da-Vida? ;)