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faffy42
08-11-2011, 10:08 PM
1. Who are the top 4 players/coaches most responsible for the reds collapse this year?
1. Drew stubbs 2. Volquez 3. Dusty 4. Rolen

2. Who are the top 4 players/coaches most not responsible for the collapse?
1. Cueto 2. Hernandez 3. Votto 4. Phillips

mroby85
08-11-2011, 10:17 PM
1. Arroyo 2. Rolen 3. Stubbs 4. Dusty

1. Votto 2. Cueto 3. Phillips 4. Ramon

Skreep
08-11-2011, 10:24 PM
How Jacoby isnt #1 on anyones list is crazy

texasdave
08-11-2011, 11:00 PM
Ditto Jocketty. (Even though he doesn't meet the player/coach criterion)

Eric the Red
08-11-2011, 11:17 PM
How Jacoby isnt #1 on anyones list is crazy

If we are judging the coaches, how can Bryan Price not be more responsible for the failure of the 2011 Reds than Brook Jacoby. By most every statistical category, the pitching is the primary reason for the demise. That said, I don't think either coach or Dusty for that matter is more responsible than the players.

My top 4 most responsible: 1) Arroyo 2) Rolen 3) Stubbs 4a) Volquez 4b) Masset

Top 4 not responsible: 1) Cueto 2) Votto 3) Hernandez 4) Phillips

mroby85
08-11-2011, 11:26 PM
If we are judging the coaches, how can Bryan Price not be more responsible for the failure of the 2011 Reds than Brook Jacoby. By most every statistical category, the pitching is the primary reason for the demise. That said, I don't think either coach or Dusty for that matter is more responsible than the players.

My top 4 most responsible: 1) Arroyo 2) Rolen 3) Stubbs 4a) Volquez 4b) Masset

Top 4 not responsible: 1) Cueto 2) Votto 3) Hernandez 4) Phillips

I feel like it's harder to blame Jacoby or Price because its strictly based on the results, and not what the coaches are possibly working on with them, or telling them to do. With Dusty, you can at least see in game decisions that you disagree with like leaving Gomes/Janish in the lineup for such a long period of time. That being said, I dont really hate Dusty like a lot of people, just saying I think a really good manager may have made a difference in all these 1 run games.

Skreep
08-12-2011, 12:00 AM
If we are judging the coaches, how can Bryan Price not be more responsible for the failure of the 2011 Reds than Brook Jacoby. By most every statistical category, the pitching is the primary reason for the demise. That said, I don't think either coach or Dusty for that matter is more responsible than the players.

My top 4 most responsible: 1) Arroyo 2) Rolen 3) Stubbs 4a) Volquez 4b) Masset

Top 4 not responsible: 1) Cueto 2) Votto 3) Hernandez 4) Phillips

i agree with price. whatever he taught all the pitchers in the offseason messed a lot of things up. i just look at bruces and stubbs. they still have the same broken swing. what is Jacoby doing to fix it?

nux fan
08-12-2011, 12:04 AM
1) Dusty
2) Baker
3) The idiot who thought the wscoreboard was wrong
4) The cretin who keeps batting stubbs first and janish second

mroby85
08-12-2011, 12:29 AM
i agree with price. whatever he taught all the pitchers in the offseason messed a lot of things up. i just look at bruces and stubbs. they still have the same broken swing. what is Jacoby doing to fix it?

What about Cueto though? Don't you think it could just be a coincidence that some pitchers haven't met expections? Volquez is coming of TJ surgery, and I dont personally feel like Arroyo is Healthy. I would say Leake has been as good or improved, and whose to say the league didn't just figure Wood out after his first time through? Just playing devils advocate, but I think its a possibility. Dontrelle Willis also seems to be doing better than he has in years.

Skreep
08-12-2011, 12:47 AM
What about Cueto though? Don't you think it could just be a coincidence that some pitchers haven't met expections? Volquez is coming of TJ surgery, and I dont personally feel like Arroyo is Healthy. I would say Leake has been as good or improved, and whose to say the league didn't just figure Wood out after his first time through? Just playing devils advocate, but I think its a possibility. Dontrelle Willis also seems to be doing better than he has in years.

I'm talking about the way they started the year. Willis wasnt with us, And Cueto was injured. Leake struggled with command to start the season which led him to the BP. He has been great since. If Arroyo or Volquez werent 100% to start the season, they should have never been used. Im not sure if thats a great excuse or not. Wood started the season with issues too. Massett has struggled also. i just think its a hell of a coincidence that quite a few pitchers started the season with problems. If it is, well, then that sucks

FireDusty
08-12-2011, 08:46 AM
Baker, Price, Jacoby, Jockerty (for not hiring his own man the second he came to Cincy)

Red Rover
08-12-2011, 09:23 AM
Most Responsible 1)Volquez 2)Arroyo 3)Rolen 4)Gomes

Not Responsible 1)Votto 2)Cueto 3)Bray 4)Pinch Hitters

Bruce, Stubbs, Phillips & Hanigan have not improved, but was hoping they would. (more disappointed than anything)

Hernandez has excelled, but not listed beacuse he gets some of the blame for the pitching.

swaisuc
08-12-2011, 10:10 AM
Most responsible: 1. Rolen (whether its his "fault" or not, the lack of production from that spot is huge) 2. The Janish/Renteria combo (ER is hot, but neither has hit overall and the defense has been a huge dissapointment) 3. Arroyo 4. Volquez
Not responsible: 1. Cueto 2. The rookies 3. Phillips 4. Hernandez

izzy's dad
08-12-2011, 10:41 AM
The good: Cueto, Votto, Phillips, Cairo/Hernanigan
The bad: Rolen, Stubbs, Janish, Masset
The ugly: Walt's offseason, Dusty, Volquez, Arroyo

justincredible
08-12-2011, 10:41 AM
1. Arroyo. In 23 starts he's given up 4 or more earned runs 13 times. Leake, by comparison, has only done that 5 times in his 23 starts. Arroyo has only given up 2 or fewer earned runs 5 times in his 23 starts. Leake has done this 14 times. Cueto has done it 13 times in 18 starts. If Arroyo pitches anything close to like he did last season and we'd be in a much better spot.

2. Brook Jacoby. Does he work with the hitters? Ever? What exactly is he getting paid to do?

3. Dusty Baker. His use of the bullpen has been brutal this season. His insistence that the CF bat 1st and SS bat 2nd.

4. Janish/Renteria. They essentially wasted the entire first half of the season from SS by not hitting or fielding. They've both been better since the break, especially Renteria, but the entire first half they were a black hole of production. A .227 BA and a .277 OBP. Batting 2nd, of course. See #3.

Vottomatic
08-12-2011, 11:53 AM
1. Arroyo 2. Rolen 3. Stubbs 4. Dusty

1. Votto 2. Cueto 3. Phillips 4. Ramon

1. Dusty 2. Rolen 3. Arroyo 4. Bullpen

Least responsible?

1. Cueto 2. Ramon Hernandez 3. Votto 4. Cordero

realistic
08-13-2011, 07:02 PM
baker
arroyo
ondrusek
gomes


cueto
votto
chapman
phillips

R_Webb18
08-13-2011, 07:10 PM
2. Brook Jacoby. Does he work with the hitters? Ever? What exactly is he getting paid to do?



o my im glad to hear its that easy.

code
08-13-2011, 08:03 PM
Who are the top 4 players/coaches most responsible for the reds collapse this year?
1. Dusty
2. Masett / Ondrusek
3. Left Field
4. Bruce

Who are the top 4 players/coaches most not responsible for the collapse?
1. Cueto
2. Hernandez
3. Votto
4. Phillips

DocRed
08-14-2011, 09:41 AM
No particular order.....Arroyo, Volquez, Dusty, Gomes

New York Red
08-14-2011, 03:45 PM
I think you need to expand the first list to maybe 9 or 10, to be honest. I would definitely include Jay Bruce and Bronson Arroyo. Bruce had one monster month, but has otherwise been pretty bad, and Bronson has just been bad, period. Plenty of blame to go around.

justincredible
08-14-2011, 05:13 PM
o my im glad to hear its that easy.

What?

freestyle55
08-17-2011, 01:41 PM
Wow, I just don't understand people who say that guys like Stubbs, Bruce, and Ondrusek are the ones who made the season "collapse"...

Stubbs plays spectacular defense and while he's not lighting the world on fire with his offense, he's still going to likely go 20-30 and possibly lead the league in runs scored. He's the 13th best CF in baseball based on WAR, so he's obviously not the worst player in the league. He's definitely miscast as leadoff though...

Bruce, while he can go on some slumps, is still OPS'ing .870 and will likely hit 30 HR, drive in 100 runs and score 80-90 runs. He's the 8th best RF in baseball according to WAR as well, so he's obviously not the worst player in the league either.

Ondrusek, who is obviously getting overused, still has an ERA under 3 (and was under 2 as of a couple weeks ago), and has one of the best LOB% numbers on the team.

Guys like Rolen, Janish and Renteria (in the first half), Gomes, Masset, Chapman (in the first half), Arroyo, and even internet favorite Heisey (who's done nothing much other than a few big games) are more the culprits than Stubbs, Bruce, and Ondrusek.

BLark = HOF
08-17-2011, 02:24 PM
1. Dusty Baker
2. Walt Jocketty
3. Scott Rolen
4. Jonny Gomes
5. ER/Janish
6. Bronson Arroyo
7. Nick Masset
8. Drew Stubbs

Reds
08-17-2011, 04:00 PM
Rolen
Arroyo
SS
LF

gilpdawg
08-19-2011, 01:00 AM
Wow, I just don't understand people who say that guys like Stubbs, Bruce, and Ondrusek are the ones who made the season "collapse"...

Stubbs plays spectacular defense and while he's not lighting the world on fire with his offense, he's still going to likely go 20-30 and possibly lead the league in runs scored. He's the 13th best CF in baseball based on WAR, so he's obviously not the worst player in the league. He's definitely miscast as leadoff though...

Bruce, while he can go on some slumps, is still OPS'ing .870 and will likely hit 30 HR, drive in 100 runs and score 80-90 runs. He's the 8th best RF in baseball according to WAR as well, so he's obviously not the worst player in the league either.

Ondrusek, who is obviously getting overused, still has an ERA under 3 (and was under 2 as of a couple weeks ago), and has one of the best LOB% numbers on the team.

Guys like Rolen, Janish and Renteria (in the first half), Gomes, Masset, Chapman (in the first half), Arroyo, and even internet favorite Heisey (who's done nothing much other than a few big games) are more the culprits than Stubbs, Bruce, and Ondrusek.

Hey, the Sun Deck is no place for logic and reasoning. That's why it's the Sun Deck.:laugh: