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Skreep
08-12-2011, 04:24 PM
Would you blame them on Dusty?



Or would you blame them on the fact that our batters were hitting 37-199 (.185) with RISP in those games?

nux fan
08-12-2011, 04:33 PM
he gets the lions share of the blame for his obstreporous, obstinate, obtuse idiocy

Skreep
08-12-2011, 04:37 PM
he gets the lions share of the blame for his obstreporous, obstinate, obtuse idiocy

good job backing your argument up.

FireDusty
08-12-2011, 04:45 PM
Who made out the lineups that produced those stats?

Dusty Baker has a well known philosophy of hitting that essentially supports an approach that says "you get one pitch per at bat you can drive, look for that pitch and drive it".

He hired a hitting coach that feels the same way.

The hitting approach taken by this team is a direct reflection of how the manager wants them to do it.

Last year, that approach worked. However, over the long haul, that faulty approach is being exposed.

Different manager = different approach, different hitting coach, different lineup & different results.

Skreep
08-12-2011, 04:50 PM
Who made out the lineups that produced those stats?

Dusty Baker has a well known philosophy of hitting that essentially supports an approach that says "you get one pitch per at bat you can drive, look for that pitch and drive it".

He hired a hitting coach that feels the same way.

The hitting approach taken by this team is a direct reflection of how the manager wants them to do it.

Last year, that approach worked. However, over the long haul, that faulty approach is being exposed.

Different manager = different approach, different hitting coach, different lineup & different results.

so your actual argument is that professional baseball players, who are paid to hit the ball, will somehow not hit based on when they step to the plate, and its not their fault? LOL. OMFG.

bshall2105
08-12-2011, 04:58 PM
so your actual argument is that professional baseball players, who are paid to hit the ball, will somehow not hit based on when they step to the plate, and its not their fault? LOL. OMFG.

If they're not being taught the correct approach how are they supposed to be able to get good results?

FireDusty
08-12-2011, 04:59 PM
so your actual argument is that professional baseball players, who are paid to hit the ball, will somehow not hit based on when they step to the plate, and its not their fault? LOL. OMFG.

It's not really about 'fault", but...Yes....hitters who have shown that they are going to break the all time record for strikeouts, hitter who had one 6 week stretch that somehow warranted a lifetime contract from Dusty, #8 hitters batting 2nd, 300 hitting catchers batting 8th.......players not being called up that could help, players that can help being called up and sat, idiotic double switches........the day isn't long enough to point out all the idiocy that is Dusty Baker.

Like I have said, he will either be fired during this offseason, or after the next.

Me = Right
You = Wrong

Skreep
08-12-2011, 05:07 PM
If they're not being taught the correct approach how are they supposed to be able to get good results?

we have quite a few wins, so a majority of the players have a good enough approach to win games. this thread was basically about people who think managers are the blame for one run losses.

faffy42
08-12-2011, 05:09 PM
Partially (but a BIG partial) Dusty is responsible for making a winning line up day in and day out. I think he does that POORLY often. Pitching mngt. Is also weak imo. But even bigger..I wonder where his energy for the game is? He sits A LOT...and doesn't seem to care or get emotional during close games. Players can't help but mirror their leader with low energy, and low emotional intensity during close games. Dusty seems to want to not make waves, lay low and massage a players ego, instead of maybe creating conflict with proactice decisions that could help make the team win that night. I feel he's afraid of making the needed gut decisions to win for fear of conflict with players egos. He's a players coach..not a competiive one imo.
Partial blame lies with hitters not producing with runners on.
The hitting coach gets partial blame too I assume, although I'm not at practice.
Bullpen gets partial blame...for allowing the run or two, of the one run game.
And lastly, just bad percentage of luck. Lots of little things that happened during the season in close games that luckily went our way last year..but not this year.
Blames goes all the way around...but dusty gets a large part imo.

Skreep
08-12-2011, 05:10 PM
It's not really about 'fault", but...Yes....hitters who have shown that they are going to break the all time record for strikeouts, hitter who had one 6 week stretch that somehow warranted a lifetime contract from Dusty, #8 hitters batting 2nd, 300 hitting catchers batting 8th.......players not being called up that could help, players that can help being called up and sat, idiotic double switches........the day isn't long enough to point out all the idiocy that is Dusty Baker.

Like I have said, he will either be fired during this offseason, or after the next.

Me = Right
You = Wrong

who did we have to replace stubbs? Gomes? Heisey? Lewis? Its not Dustys job to call up or sign a replacement.

Also, smart guy, you want a good batter hitting 8th. If you have runners on, you want a chance to knock them in before the pitcher comes to bat. Whats the point of having two men on, two men out, and having your two worst hitters coming to the plate?

nux fan
08-12-2011, 05:12 PM
nice job by baker putting strike out artists in front of votto

bshall2105
08-12-2011, 05:15 PM
nice job by baker putting strike out artists in front of votto

Yeah I still can't get over Stubbs being in the leadoff spot all year when it has been clear for the past 2 years that he is an awful lead off hitter.

Red Rover
08-12-2011, 05:16 PM
Yeah I still can't get over Stubbs being in the leadoff spot all year when it has been clear for the past 2 years that he is an awful lead off hitter.

Who currently on this team would be better?

bshall2105
08-12-2011, 05:17 PM
Who currently on this team would be better?

Heisey, Phillips, Bruce, Lewis, I'd even take Cairo.

Captain13
08-12-2011, 05:18 PM
Heisey, Phillips, Bruce, Lewis, I'd even take Cairo.

Heisey and Bruce strike out almost as often, plus can you imagine the backlash if Bruce was leading off instead of batting in the middle of the order. The Dusty-haters would go berzerk.

Red Rover
08-12-2011, 05:24 PM
Heisey, Phillips, Bruce, Lewis, I'd even take Cairo.

Heisey has a lower OBP than Stubbs.

Lewis and Phillips OBP are pretty much the same as Stubbs, but they can't steal a base.

Bruce, I might agree with, but you are wasting alot of power in the lead off position.

Skreep
08-12-2011, 05:31 PM
Heisey and Bruce strike out almost as often, plus can you imagine the backlash if Bruce was leading off instead of batting in the middle of the order. The Dusty-haters would go berzerk.

like how they went crazy and called dusty stupid for not putting bruce in cleanup, then went crazy and called him stupid when bruce failed.

bshall2105
08-12-2011, 05:33 PM
Heisey has a lower OBP than Stubbs.

Lewis and Phillips OBP are pretty much the same as Stubbs, but they can't steal a base.

Bruce, I might agree with, but you are wasting alot of power in the lead off position.

I'm talking about maximizing what you get out of Stubbs. I think he is a better run producer than a lot of guys right now including Bruce.

faffy42
08-12-2011, 05:36 PM
Heisey has a lower OBP than Stubbs.

Lewis and Phillips OBP are pretty much the same as Stubbs, but they can't steal a base.

Bruce, I might agree with, but you are wasting alot of power in the lead off position.

I don't think bruce can hit very well right now. He's streaky. Still hasn't developed the mental approach, same as stubbs. Id give heisey the spot (and hesiey can bunt).

Skreep
08-12-2011, 05:46 PM
I don't think bruce can hit very well right now. He's streaky. Still hasn't developed the mental approach, same as stubbs. Id give heisey the spot (and hesiey can bunt).

bruce is starting to go on another streak, but his swing needs so much work. Heisey still isnt the answer. Great pinch hitter, but not the greatest in a starting position

Stray
08-12-2011, 05:52 PM
Why do so many people try to put the blame in one area? That's seriously the dumbest thing I've ever heard. To underachieve as much as we have it takes a collective effort from everyone.

Also, I read so much about guys batting out of order (and some I agree with). But for something to be wrong, there has to be a right.

Stubbs leading off sucked sure, but what options are clearly better? Fred Lewis, most people don't think he should even be on the team, but I would have liked to see more of him playing. Chris Heisey, was given the starting LF job and leadoff spot, but he also strikes out a ton and his numbers as a starter aren't really all that good. Dave Sappelt, too early to judge, but he's been far from an on base machine since getting his chance.

Renteria 2nd is supposedly an awful decision too. Well what is the right call then? Keep in mind that hitting BP second takes away the only RH bat in our lineup that can give Votto even a touch of protection, even though it's something he's not good at and it's obvious Dusty doesn't like hitting him there. Should we bat a catcher 2nd? I think the idea is that Votto can easily score that guy with an extra base hit when he's on 1st. Or we could look at how Renteria has played offensively since getting consistent time...and he's played very well. Along with Ramon, he's the best at hitting the hole a runner on 1st opens up.

So yeah, I laugh so hard at reading all of these complaints about TERRIBLY stupid decisions, but there's rarely any mention of what the right one would have been. Lets be realistic and understand that the guys on this team don't fit together, so guys are naturally going to have to hit out of place.

faffy42
08-12-2011, 08:50 PM
I think heisey could be a good lead off hitter. He's got much more plate discipline than stubbs. He hasn't had a legit shot at starting this season. Too few games played with the lef field circus rotation, and then injury. If he gets more time playing/starting, I think he's got good plate discipline to be a good lead off hitter.

webbbj
08-12-2011, 10:47 PM
Going into next year id like to see

1. Sappelt RF
2. Phiilips 2B
3. Bruce RF
4. Votto 1B
5. Alonso 3B
6. Stubbs CF
7. Meseraco C
8. Cozart SS

Skreep
08-13-2011, 12:10 AM
Going into next year id like to see

1. Sappelt RF
2. Phiilips 2B
3. Bruce RF
4. Votto 1B
5. Alonso 3B
6. Stubbs CF
7. Meseraco C
8. Cozart SS

i like that lineup. i really hope they keep hernandez for awhile to help Meseraco.

texasdave
08-13-2011, 01:25 AM
Keep in mind that hitting BP second takes away the only RH bat in our lineup that can give Votto even a touch of protection.

Razor.

UCBrownsfan
08-13-2011, 10:07 AM
Going into next year id like to see

1. Sappelt RF
2. Phiilips 2B
3. Bruce RF
4. Votto 1B
5. Alonso 3B
6. Stubbs CF
7. Meseraco C
8. Cozart SS

Bruce's defense has struggled a little bit this year... but I don't think he needs help in right.

LexRedsFan
08-13-2011, 10:11 AM
Bruce's defense has struggled a little bit this year... but I don't think he needs help in right.

I was about to say, we're going to be the best defensive team in the majors when teams stack lefties against us. :laugh:

Stray
08-13-2011, 02:49 PM
Razor.

Im actually surprised we never tried that. The only reason I can think of is because he isn't an everyday player. Still though, we really don't have a true 4 hitter to protect votto, some guys might be marginally better than other options, but eh. Its a hole that has to be filled before next season.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk

Skreep
08-13-2011, 04:04 PM
Im actually surprised we never tried that. The only reason I can think of is because he isn't an everyday player. Still though, we really don't have a true 4 hitter to protect votto, some guys might be marginally better than other options, but eh. Its a hole that has to be filled before next season.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk

Is there a free version of Tapatalk in the app market?

Stray
08-13-2011, 06:19 PM
Is there a free version of Tapatalk in the app market?

I think there are some, but I wouldn't expect much from them. If you'll use it a lot tapatalk is worth the 2 bucks or whatever it is.

Skreep
08-13-2011, 11:00 PM
I think there are some, but I wouldn't expect much from them. If you'll use it a lot tapatalk is worth the 2 bucks or whatever it is.

i was debating on it. but ill give a free version a try and if i like it, buy it. appreciate it

nux fan
08-14-2011, 01:56 PM
there are many one run losses because the "manager" and his primitive source of intelligence, his toothpick, cannot possibly show fluidity in reasoning, if a pitcher pitches a 1-2-3 inning but that inning is the seventh , then that pitcher must be removed, if the game is tied 3-3 then the closer must not be used, better to lose the game with Ondruszek and save the closer for tomorrows 11-1 defeat

Stray
08-14-2011, 02:37 PM
there are many one run losses because the "manager" and his primitive source of intelligence, his toothpick, cannot possibly show fluidity in reasoning, if a pitcher pitches a 1-2-3 inning but that inning is the seventh , then that pitcher must be removed, if the game is tied 3-3 then the closer must not be used, better to lose the game with Ondruszek and save the closer for tomorrows 11-1 defeat

Gotta be honest, I'm not 100% sure what you're trying to say. But...

On the road you save you closer in a tie game, at home you use him and work your bullpen backwards. Dusty does this, all managers do this. Unless someone is unavailable that night.

nux fan
08-14-2011, 02:51 PM
says who, you try to win the game, the yanks routinely use rivera in tie games or pitch him more than one inning, that "rule" is recent

Skreep
08-14-2011, 06:27 PM
says who, you try to win the game, the yanks routinely use rivera in tie games or pitch him more than one inning, that "rule" is recent

routinely use him more than one inning?

Last 3 seasons

IP = 171.1
Appearances = 174

Since his primary role is a closer, him going two innings only happen when the game goes into extras. its only happened 3 times this season.

He has come into the 8th TWICE this season. Both times it was for the final out.

Once again, this is baseball. there is a stat for everything that happens on the field. USE THEM

nux fan
08-14-2011, 06:46 PM
heres a stat how many teams bat the hitter who strikes out the most in the lead off spot and the batter with the lowest batting average second, both in fron of the best rbi man

maybe the phils have figured out something they bat victorino, utley and polanco in FRONT of howard to enhance his rbi opportunities,

your hero Bakers does the reverse

Skreep
08-14-2011, 06:58 PM
heres a stat how many teams bat the hitter who strikes out the most in the lead off spot and the batter with the lowest batting average second, both in fron of the best rbi man

maybe the phils have figured out something they bat victorino, utley and polanco in FRONT of howard to enhance his rbi opportunities,

your hero Bakers does the reverse

awww, you throw out something like we have a better option at lead off. lets forget that stubbs has a higher OBP than many other lead off hitters in the league.

Stats, use them

nux fan
08-14-2011, 07:08 PM
I guess its ok for janish for the two spot because his ops is so elevated ,, brains, use them

Skreep
08-14-2011, 07:13 PM
I guess its ok for janish for the two spot because his ops is so elevated ,, brains, use them

you realize janish has started a game batting second 8 games this year right? you probably already did, thats why you're not making a big deal out of it.

Vottomatic
08-14-2011, 07:14 PM
I guess its ok for janish for the two spot because his ops is so elevated ,, brains, use them

Dude. You're dead on.

I've watched a reliever come in, throw lights out for an inning.........with his spot in the batting order not coming up for a pinch hitter, and Dusty still yank him, and put in the reliever who clearly doesn't have it and loses the game.

Happens alot under Dusty.

Batting the SS second on this team has been a constant stupidity for 2 or 3 years now. Just absurd.

Skreep
08-14-2011, 07:19 PM
Dude. You're dead on.

I've watched a reliever come in, throw lights out for an inning.........with his spot in the batting order not coming up for a pinch hitter, and Dusty still yank him, and put in the reliever who clearly doesn't have it and loses the game.

Happens alot under Dusty.

Batting the SS second on this team has been a constant stupidity for 2 or 3 years now. Just absurd.

Janish and Renteria combined have bat second less than one third of the year.

Vottomatic
08-14-2011, 07:21 PM
Janish and Renteria combined have bat second less than one third of the year.

One third too much. :p :beerme:

How anyone can defend Dusty is beyond me. I swear you must be dating his daughter. Seriously.

The game has passed Dusty by.

Skreep
08-14-2011, 07:26 PM
One third too much. :p :beerme:

How anyone can defend Dusty is beyond me. I swear you must be dating his daughter. Seriously.

The game has passed Dusty by.

not defending him. you wont read one post by me where i said he has done something that i like. i just like making people who talk about stuff they nothing about look stupid. i.e. nuxxy boy. everything he says i find a stat to prove otherwise. its so much fun.

Stray
08-14-2011, 07:27 PM
says who, you try to win the game, the yanks routinely use rivera in tie games or pitch him more than one inning, that "rule" is recent

Lol I could only imagine your reaction if we had to close out an extra inning win on the road and our closer had already been used.

At home you use him early and work backwards through your bullpen, on the road you don't.

texasdave
08-15-2011, 01:13 AM
JMO, but if someone tries to justify an action by saying everyone else does it, then they have offered up no justification whatsoever.

nux fan
08-16-2011, 02:06 PM
the road , home split is non sense where is the proof, the idea is to win games not preserve some antiquated baseball lore

smixsell
08-16-2011, 02:22 PM
Who made out the lineups that produced those stats?

Dusty Baker has a well known philosophy of hitting that essentially supports an approach that says "you get one pitch per at bat you can drive, look for that pitch and drive it".

He hired a hitting coach that feels the same way.

The hitting approach taken by this team is a direct reflection of how the manager wants them to do it.

Last year, that approach worked. However, over the long haul, that faulty approach is being exposed.

Different manager = different approach, different hitting coach, different lineup & different results.

Largely correct. The young players are not even being trained in the art of professional (situational) hitting, which is one of the most important qualities necessary to do well in close games.

ALSO Dusty's inept handling of the bullpen (leaving in starters too long when they've obviously lost it, pulling starters who are still throwing well, bringing in several relievers to pitch to one or two batters in a tie game ignoring the very real possibility that the game will remain tied and go several extra innnings, yanking relievers who are obviously "on" and leaving relievers who obviosly dont have their good stuff (or decent command) in too long, getting relievers hot in the bullpen and then changing his mind and leaving the starter in for another inning or two and then bringing in the same reliever after getting him warm for a second time in the same night, batting Hernandez (our second best RBI guy, RISP BA guy, career clutch hitter) 8th most of the time when he plays, etc. etc etc.

And finally, Guess what---The head honcho is ULTIMATELY responsible for everthing that goes on beneath him in the chain of command. This team makes little league mental mistakes regularly and players get little or no discipline, so they keep right on doing it. Dusty had vet leadership to make up for his lack last year (Read Cabrera and Rolen) and this year he has no "cover" so his weakness is this area made more apparent.

IT IS DUSTY'S FAULT

smixsell
08-16-2011, 02:24 PM
there are many one run losses because the "manager" and his primitive source of intelligence, his toothpick, cannot possibly show fluidity in reasoning, if a pitcher pitches a 1-2-3 inning but that inning is the seventh , then that pitcher must be removed, if the game is tied 3-3 then the closer must not be used, better to lose the game with Ondruszek and save the closer for tomorrows 11-1 defeat

Nailed it.

smixsell
08-16-2011, 02:29 PM
[QUOTE=Vottomatic;2466685]Dude. You're dead on.

I've watched a reliever come in, throw lights out for an inning.........with his spot in the batting order not coming up for a pinch hitter, and Dusty still yank him, and put in the reliever who clearly doesn't have it and loses the game.

Happens alot under Dusty.

QUOTE]

Nailed it again. The man is a moron when it comes to hadling pitchers. He frequently takes out guys who are "locked in" and leaves guys in who have poor stuff or no command on the day.

nux fan
08-16-2011, 03:01 PM
perfect reasoning, a complete 2400 SAT performance

FireDusty
08-16-2011, 07:18 PM
awww, you throw out something like we have a better option at lead off. lets forget that stubbs has a higher OBP than many other lead off hitters in the league.

Stats, use themOk, Dusty has a losing record with the Reds.

Wow, that works!

texasdave
08-16-2011, 07:39 PM
This would be his 3rd sub-.500 season out of 4. If the manager really does not have much effect on a team's performance why are the Reds paying 3 million a year for that sort of record? That alone seems to me to be reason enough to let Dusty go. Paying someone else a million a year and plowing the 2 million dollar yearly difference back into payroll development seems a far wiser usage of funds for a small-market team.

Skreep
08-16-2011, 07:52 PM
Ok, Dusty has a losing record with the Reds.

Wow, that works!

So dusty is responsible for the crappy players the reds had his first year? or do you think that blame lies with the GM?

Your logic would imply that if dusty became the manager of the yankees, and they won the division, it would be only because of him, and not the players.