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Chip R
08-17-2011, 08:59 AM
Color me surprised.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/6866006/ponzi-schemer-nevin-shapiro-says-provided-benefits-miami-athletes (http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/6866006/ponzi-schemer-nevin-shapiro-says-provided-benefits-miami-athletes)

bucksfan2
08-17-2011, 09:19 AM
Color me surprised.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/6866006/ponzi-schemer-nevin-shapiro-says-provided-benefits-miami-athletes (http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/6866006/ponzi-schemer-nevin-shapiro-says-provided-benefits-miami-athletes)

It surprised me a little when OSU got into some big time trouble with the NCAA. It surprised me even less with the Butch Davis issues at UNC, and even less with the USC allegations.

It does not surprise me at all that The U is in trouble. That football program always seems like a recipe for disaster. I guess what else I realized from this story, when Yahoo sports comes snooping around your program your in some serious trouble.

kaldaniels
08-17-2011, 09:32 AM
In other news, the sun rose in the east today.

Chip R
08-17-2011, 09:35 AM
Makes you wonder if someone affiliated with the U did Shapiro wrong cause he's spilling his guts about every misdeed he was ever a part of. If he was such a great booster, wouldn't he keep his mouth shut?

bucksfan2
08-17-2011, 10:02 AM
Makes you wonder if someone affiliated with the U did Shapiro wrong cause he's spilling his guts about every misdeed he was ever a part of. If he was such a great booster, wouldn't he keep his mouth shut?

When your in jail for a Ponzi scheme? I would imagine some money is changing hands here in exchange for information.

Slyder
08-17-2011, 10:20 AM
Color me surprised.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/6866006/ponzi-schemer-nevin-shapiro-says-provided-benefits-miami-athletes (http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/6866006/ponzi-schemer-nevin-shapiro-says-provided-benefits-miami-athletes)


Iago, Jafar's parrot, is sarcastically surprised... - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxlhyX-4qKI)

texasdave
08-17-2011, 11:07 AM
Makes you wonder if someone affiliated with the U did Shapiro wrong cause he's spilling his guts about every misdeed he was ever a part of. If he was such a great booster, wouldn't he keep his mouth shut?


Shapiro’s chief reason for blowing the whistle? Being abandoned by many of the athletes he helped, when he believed he had forged legitimate friendships with them.



Read more: http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-football/feed/2011-08/um-violations/story/impermissable-benefits-rampant-miami-yahoo-report-nevin-shapiro?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl3%7Csec3_lnk1%7C87100#ixzz1VIbFl w1V

reds1869
08-17-2011, 11:51 AM
If the NCAA doesn't issue the death penalty here they never will again. At least not until Cleveland State has a football team.

LoganBuck
08-17-2011, 01:39 PM
The best description I heard on this versus recent transgressions of OSU, Boise, Alabama, etc

They were doing 70 MPH in a 65, Miami flew past them doing 130 in a Ferrari flipping the bird at cops.

HeatherC1212
08-17-2011, 02:01 PM
Yahoo has an entire section devoted to this story (http://sports.yahoo.com/investigations;_ylt=Aio7TGDFjSo9iwb4bxKkUXUcvrYF)

Holy crap, this sounds really bad for Miami and it appears he's got all the proof the NCAA needs too. Good luck Hurricanes. :eek: :eek: :eek:

BuckeyeRed27
08-17-2011, 02:24 PM
Wow. Now that is how you break the rules.

I love the Devin Hester quote where he said "He doesn't know the guy", yet there are two personalized autographed photos and at least 3 pictures of them together in small groups and clubs and restaurants.

bucksfan2
08-17-2011, 02:28 PM
The problem is the guys who received the improper benefits and the coaches who let it go are long gone. It would suck to be an incoming freshman or a soph who had nothing to do with these payments but are going to get hammered.

Scrap Irony
08-17-2011, 04:04 PM
The problem is the guys who received the improper benefits and the coaches who let it go are long gone. It would suck to be an incoming freshman or a soph who had nothing to do with these payments but are going to get hammered.

This. Though that didn't stop the NCAA in regards to SMU.

Yeah, this is the very definition of dirty. It'll be interesting to see what happens with Emmert's NCAA.

paintmered
08-17-2011, 04:06 PM
Could this be grounds for serious consideration of the death penalty? There's receipts, bank accounts, credit cards and other forms of corroboration to back many of these allegations. This scumbag felon obviously has an axe to grind, but he's apparently backing it up with hard facts.

No matter the name of the penalty, the NCAA schwackhammer is going to come down on The U. It's going to be painful, and it's going to linger for years.

BuckeyeRed27
08-17-2011, 04:19 PM
The problem is the guys who received the improper benefits and the coaches who let it go are long gone. It would suck to be an incoming freshman or a soph who had nothing to do with these payments but are going to get hammered.

This is actually not true. At least 6 members of the football team and one member of the basketball team are still enrolled as well as a couple players that have transfered to other schools (including Robert Marve at Purdue).

Slyder
08-17-2011, 04:33 PM
This is actually not true. At least 6 members of the football team and one member of the basketball team are still enrolled as well as a couple players that have transfered to other schools (including Robert Marve at Purdue).

One of the names ESPN reported was starting QB Jacory Harris.

UKFlounder
08-17-2011, 04:41 PM
You would think so, but this is the same NCAA that allowed Cam Newton to play because he "didn't know" what his dad was doing and that then allowed OSU to use known ineligible players in a bowl game, breaking virtually every precident in (at least recent) NCAA history. They then had the infractions committe send a 5 page letter to Kentucky about Calipari's victory total, even though that claim had nothing to do with any alleged infraction. And how long did it take them to act on the Reggie Bush case?

I agree that these findings deserve a tough penalty, but right now I'm not confident in the NCAA's decision-making.


No matter the name of the penalty, the NCAA schwackhammer is going to come down on The U. It's going to be painful, and it's going to linger for years.

Stray
08-17-2011, 04:49 PM
There would have to be proof of this scandal going really high up at Miami for them to get the death penalty. It could happen, but I really doubt it.

I don't even see it as a Miami issue or an Ohio State issue, etc... This is a problem with all of college football. There's too much of it going on and the only way anyone seems to get busted is when Yahoo Sports starts snooping around.

I don't really blame young guys that don't have any money for taking when a rich ahole is throwing it around, the problem is that those guys are allowed to be this involved in a program. The funniest part of the whole thing is how Paul Dee, the man who was on the committee that punished USC, was the AD at Miami for a lot of those years.

The NCAA has big problems.

jojo
08-17-2011, 06:23 PM
Makes you wonder if someone affiliated with the U did Shapiro wrong cause he's spilling his guts about every misdeed he was ever a part of. If he was such a great booster, wouldn't he keep his mouth shut?

I think he called on several of his "friends" for help during his trial for bail etc and they weren't very helpful....he also appears to be working on some type of a book project/deal.... it may also be part of his legal situation too....

jojo
08-17-2011, 06:33 PM
You would think so, but this is the same NCAA that allowed Cam Newton to play because he "didn't know" what his dad was doing

To be absolutely fair, if there had been an actual special benefit given/received, the NCAA likely would've ruled differently on Cam's eligibility. The OSU decision was a little weird in how the NCAA back loaded the penalties but I don't think the NCAA could be accused of looking the other way.

Concerning Miami, i'll be surprised, if they don't get nuked. Maybe they won't get the death penalty but they're going to find it tough to be competitive for a significant period following their punishment despite the conference they play in. This might have some far reaching implications too as there are several coaches that were on Miami's staff from the period encompassing Shapiro's that would have full knowledge of major violations if the allegations are true and who have went on to become prominent members of high profile football programs throughout the US.

For the record, the USC and Miami situations are how journalists are supposed to cover these kinds of things.... don't fire all cannons until ya know what you're shooting at....

This might also have other far reaching consequences.... Texas A&M is most likely going to join the SEC... a team like Virginia Tech would be a prime target for expansion given the chance for the SEC to try to invade the DC area and they may be more prone to jump ship if the competitive nature of their conference takes a hit by a major program getting significant sanctions....

kaldaniels
08-17-2011, 06:43 PM
Yahoo is free to do as they please, but does anyone else have the feeling they could pick any school they wanted, do an investigation, and land evidence to get sanctions against that school?

jojo
08-17-2011, 06:49 PM
Yahoo is free to do as they please, but does anyone else have the feeling they could pick any school they wanted, do an investigation, and land evidence to get sanctions against that school?

The key appears to be finding a disgruntled person as a source.

paintmered
08-17-2011, 07:44 PM
The key appears to be finding a disgruntled person as a source.

The obvious solution is to keep the boosters and agents happy by allowing them perpetual unlimited access to keep them gruntled. (And in this case, also out of jail) :D


("Gruntled" should be an actual word. Maybe when I become king some day...)

15fan
08-17-2011, 08:15 PM
Miami making a strong case to be included when the SEC expands.

WMR
08-17-2011, 08:27 PM
Miami making a strong case to be included when the SEC expands.

Poor post, steeped in common misconceptions...


These are listed NCAA Major Probations by current members of these respective
conferences:

1. Big 12 Has 56 Probations; 12 members = 4.7 per institution
2. PAC 10 Has 45 Probations; 10 members (before this season) = 4.5 per institution
3. SEC Has 50 Probations; 12 members = 4.2 per institution
4. Big Ten (11) Has 42 Probations; 11 members = 3.8 per school
5. Conference USA 41 Probations; 12 members = 3.4 per school
6. ACC 35 Probations; 12 members = 2.9 per school (about to add UNC/Miami)
7. Mountain West Has 19 Probations; 9 members = 2.1 per school
8. Big East Has 32 Probations; 16 members = 2 per school
9. WAC Has 18 Probations; 9 members = 2 per school
10. Missouri Valley Has 15 Probations; 10 members = 1.5 per school
11. Atlantic 10 Has 13 Probations; 14 members = 0.9 per school

Hoosier Red
08-17-2011, 09:05 PM
Poor post, steeped in common misconceptions...

Those stats have to be out of date WMR.

The Big 10 has 12 members and the Big XII has 9 1/2 members. (Duh) :):laugh:

Todd Gack
08-17-2011, 09:08 PM
Miami isn't getting any death penalty.

Randy Shannon barred this guy from practice once he took over as HC because he was viewed as a 'questionably' character or booster by UM. It wasn't specifically him as it was a whole group of folks, but he was included. Drew Rosenhaus as well. There are a lot of holes in his story but I'm not going through all of them.

With that said, I have no doubt players were paid as its just a matter of finding a paper trail. Paul Dee was their AD at the time and he's now head of the NCAA INfractions committee. (he's the one who gave USC their punishment last year).

Scrap Irony
08-17-2011, 09:15 PM
Yahoo is free to do as they please, but does anyone else have the feeling they could pick any school they wanted, do an investigation, and land evidence to get sanctions against that school?

Yahoo has investigated at a couple midwest/ southern schools lately and found nothing interesting, according to a reporter friend of mine. (He was quite interested to see if anything would come up at one of the schools in particular.)

15fan
08-17-2011, 09:19 PM
Poor post, steeped in common misconceptions...

Charles Barkley.

(I'm paraphrasing)

"It's the SEC. If you ain't cheatin, you ain't tryin."

WMR
08-17-2011, 09:35 PM
Charles Barkley.

(I'm paraphrasing)

"It's the SEC. If you ain't cheatin, you ain't tryin."

Then he should have something really witty to say about the Big 12 and PAC-10. ;)

KronoRed
08-17-2011, 11:17 PM
It's not hard to believe this has going on in South Florida for at least 25 years.

It's a shame the NCAA is so skittish now about the death penalty, SMU got exactly what they deserved being a program built from the bottom up on cheating.

George Foster
08-18-2011, 01:11 AM
Could this be grounds for serious consideration of the death penalty? There's receipts, bank accounts, credit cards and other forms of corroboration to back many of these allegations. This scumbag felon obviously has an axe to grind, but he's apparently backing it up with hard facts.

No matter the name of the penalty, the NCAA schwackhammer is going to come down on The U. It's going to be painful, and it's going to linger for years.

Miami will not be issued the death penalty because the football team funds other non-revenue sports at Miami. To many people will be hurt...girls volleyball, softball, mens golf, etc. I look for the NCAA to go after the existing students that were given the "gifts."

On a side note the former A.D. at Miami when all of this went down was the head of the infractions committee on the NCAA...what a joke! This is the same guy that cleared Derrick Rose to play at Memphis through the clearing house then over a year later said he was ineligible...this jokers name is Paul Dee. The phase he used against Memphis was "strict liability." Coach Cal today sent out a tweet and all it said was....Paul Dee....strict liability! Classic....

Todd Gack
08-18-2011, 07:42 AM
It's not hard to believe this has going on in South Florida for at least 25 years.

It's a shame the NCAA is so skittish now about the death penalty, SMU got exactly what they deserved being a program built from the bottom up on cheating.

Miami is a small private school. Their boosters pale in comparison to FSU and Florida and the rest of the SEC. They have been mediocre the last 5-10 years. UM lost many recruits to LSU and the likes because of a last second 'change of heart.' If they're paying recruits, then they're doing an awful job at it.

bucksfan2
08-18-2011, 09:01 AM
Miami is a small private school. Their boosters pale in comparison to FSU and Florida and the rest of the SEC. They have been mediocre the last 5-10 years. UM lost many recruits to LSU and the likes because of a last second 'change of heart.' If they're paying recruits, then they're doing an awful job at it.

I don't really buy this. You can say schools like Harvard, Yale, Princeton are small private schools yet they have endowments topped by no one.

South Beach is a cesspool of people who want to flaunt their money and be famous. I haven't been to Gainsville or Tallahassee but I would imagine there is more money and flaunting down in Miami than in either of those two cities combined.

Sea Ray
08-18-2011, 10:34 AM
This. Though that didn't stop the NCAA in regards to SMU.

Yeah, this is the very definition of dirty. It'll be interesting to see what happens with Emmert's NCAA.

SMU was different in that the payoffs could be traced to the University, not just boosters and their recruits had a paper trail--yes signed contracts of what they were to receive. It was over the top

Stray
08-18-2011, 11:26 AM
I think it's kinda silly to even talk about Miami deserving the death penalty right now. The SMU scandal was really really bad.

jojo
08-18-2011, 11:48 AM
I think it's kinda silly to even talk about Miami deserving the death penalty right now. The SMU scandal was really really bad.

The SMU scandal was about as bad as it possibly could get...

IslandRed
08-18-2011, 01:17 PM
On a side note the former A.D. at Miami when all of this went down was the head of the infractions committee on the NCAA...what a joke! This is the same guy that cleared Derrick Rose to play at Memphis through the clearing house then over a year later said he was ineligible...this jokers name is Paul Dee. The phase he used against Memphis was "strict liability." Coach Cal today sent out a tweet and all it said was....Paul Dee....strict liability! Classic....

I expect Miami will be hoisted on Dee's own petard, so to speak, since the primary logic behind USC's sanctions was that the only way USC could not have known about the Bush and Mayo situations was for compliance to actively avoid doing their jobs. Hammer, meet another nail.

However, I will quibble with one thing -- the infractions committee does not have anything to do with clearinghouse operations, so it's not factual to say that Dee cleared Rose to play. And I doubt any other leader of the infractions committee would have made a different decision given what the organization's rules are.

cumberlandreds
08-18-2011, 01:24 PM
The SMU scandal was about as bad as it possibly could get...

Yes it was. For anyone who has not seen it,they should watch the 30 for 30 program produced by ESPN about the SMU scandal.

Scrap Irony
08-18-2011, 03:40 PM
Miami is a small private school. Their boosters pale in comparison to FSU and Florida and the rest of the SEC. They have been mediocre the last 5-10 years. UM lost many recruits to LSU and the likes because of a last second 'change of heart.' If they're paying recruits, then they're doing an awful job at it.

Proof?

Todd Gack
08-18-2011, 06:04 PM
Proof?

Of course I don't. If I did, I'd be working for Yahoo!

HeatherC1212
08-18-2011, 09:59 PM
Yes it was. For anyone who has not seen it,they should watch the 30 for 30 program produced by ESPN about the SMU scandal.

It's called "Pony Excess" and I agree that it was an incredible movie. It wouldn't surprise me if in the wake of all these college football things that they reair it sometime very soon. Really great film. Riveting IMO.

paintmered
08-18-2011, 11:46 PM
And the death penalty is not off the table...


Mark Emmert says he's 'fine with' death penalty

Posted by Jerry Hinnen

NCAA vice president of enforcement Julie Roe Lach said Wednesday the "majority of ... support" she encounters within the organization is for sanctions like bowl bans and scholarship reductions that stop short of the death penalty--even in the event of mammoth scandals like the one unfolding at Miami. But apparently, she didn't talk to the NCAA's own president.


http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/24156338/31398694



This being said, the death penalty isn't necessary to drive a stake through the heart of the Miami football program. With serious sanctions coming down the pipe, The U is certainly going to lose some recruits they previous thought they had, and future recruits will be less likely to consider Miami. Al Golden is probably out the door as soon as the season ends. So even if the investigation takes 2-3 years, Miami will start to feel the effects much sooner. A five-year bowl ban and a loss of 10 scholarships per incoming class for at least that long will have a similar impact as the death penalty without all the messy details (scheduling, TV contracts, conference realignment, etc.). It would take Miami a decade to recover from a punishment that severe.

George Foster
08-19-2011, 12:40 AM
There are many reasons to follow and mock the Miami Hurricanes scandal, ranging from the large dollar amounts to the spectacle of a 40 year old man sad that his college “friends” would forget about him after he stopped giving them money. But in addition to the national part of the story, there are many local angles as well. We have talked a great deal about Clint Hurtt, the Louisville Recruiting Coordinator who is at the center of the scandal, but UK fans should not forget about the former Miami Athletic Director’s role as well. Paul Dee was in charge of the Miami program for 15 years, from 1993-2008 and as such, had the job of overseeing the out of control Hurricane ship. He hired Butch Davis, followed him up with Larry Coker and then finished the sundae with Randy Shannon. In addition, he headed many fundraising efforts and became very close with one Nevin Shapiro, the booster who is alleged to have given over $2,000,000 in illegal inducements to Miami athletes.

Shapiro’s relationship with the players has been well-documented in the thorough Yahoo Sports report But Shapiro was also very close to Dee himself, taking a number of donations from the booster and at one point, having Shapiro lead the Hurricanes on the field before the game. He either knew of Shapiro’s relationship with the players or was willfully negligent in discovering why this 40 year old man seemed to be “boys” with all of his football players, while donating huge sums of money to the school.

The Yahoo story shows that Dee is clearly an incompetent, or potentially dirty, Athletics Director. However it is also clear that Dee is a hypocrite in every sense of the word. From 2008-2010, Dee was in charge of the NCAA Committee on Infractions. He oversaw two high profile cases in USC football and Memphis basketball. During those two hearings, Dee decided to use his power to move the NCAA into a different realm of enforcement than it had previously ever enter into. Whereas before, some form of knowledge was usually required to give a school sanctions, Dee began the notion of “strict liability” in NCAA enforcement. He essentially claimed that anything that happens on a school’s campus or in connection with its programs, should be known by the administrators and if it is not…well that is tough.

In both the USC and Memphis cases, knowledge of the infringing actions was never shown, and in the Memphis case never alleged. Still Dee took the position that the programs and coaches such as Calipari should be punished on a strict liability basis. He famously said, “high profile players demand high profile compliance.” While making those comments, Dee set himself out to be a new renegade enforcer of college athletics, sick of excuses and forcing compliance to all rules. And yet now we find out that Dee oversaw what potentially may be the most egregious rule-breaking over the past two decades in college athletics. Whereas USC had one main player (Reggie Bush) who took money from outside boosters/agents and Memphis had one player (Derrick Rose) whose ACT score was in question, Miami has 72 CONFIRMED players who took illegal benefits. And all of those benefits were taken from a booster so connected to the program that he was allowed to run out on the field with the team at a home game.

Hypocrisy is a word thrown around all the time in the world and it is often not appropriate for the situation. But in this case, hypocrisy doesn’t even seem a strong enough term. Paul Dee oversaw a committee that took down John Calipari and the Memphis basketball program by creating a new “no knowledge needed” standard never before enforced. Now Calipari is somewhere likely seething as this same man who took away his program’s accomplishments with a self-righteous standard that he was clearly not capable of following, is now proven to have been the head of the greatest rogue program of them all. All Miami games should, and one would presume will, be vacated and the program must receive the maximum punishment. But more importantly, Paul Dee has been shown to be the worst type of leader, a hypocritical weasel of a man who believes his calling is to chastise others while he willfully neglects the own rot under his nose. Matt Jones....Kentucky sports radio 8-18-11:thumbup::thumbup::beerme:

Todd Gack
08-19-2011, 06:20 AM
Trust me. Miami isn't getting the death penalty. I'm not going through everything, but the whole story is based on pretty flimsy evidence and the word of a convicted felon/liar. I'll give you an example:

There were 33 texts between Phillips and Shapiro between May and December of 2009 and Phillips was a frequent guest at Shapiro's house and boat. What's the problem with this argument? Phillips was playing in the NFL at this time. How is this a problem?



And the death penalty is not off the table...




This being said, the death penalty isn't necessary to drive a stake through the heart of the Miami football program. With serious sanctions coming down the pipe, The U is certainly going to lose some recruits they previous thought they had, and future recruits will be less likely to consider Miami. Al Golden is probably out the door as soon as the season ends. So even if the investigation takes 2-3 years, Miami will start to feel the effects much sooner. A five-year bowl ban and a loss of 10 scholarships per incoming class for at least that long will have a similar impact as the death penalty without all the messy details (scheduling, TV contracts, conference realignment, etc.). It would take Miami a decade to recover from a punishment that severe.

Chip R
08-19-2011, 09:11 AM
Trust me. Miami isn't getting the death penalty. I'm not going through everything, but the whole story is based on pretty flimsy evidence and the word of a convicted felon/liar. I'll give you an example:


Looks like there are a lot of specifics in these charges. Names, amounts of money exchanged, specific services received, etc. Two former Miami players confirmed that Shapiro paid prostitutes, escorts or strippers to have sex with football players in various settings. Multiple sources who interacted with Shapiro corroborated in detail the manner in which the booster doled out specific benefits as he violated NCAA rules. Does this look like just some felon blowing smoke?

cumberlandreds
08-19-2011, 10:04 AM
It's called "Pony Excess" and I agree that it was an incredible movie. It wouldn't surprise me if in the wake of all these college football things that they reair it sometime very soon. Really great film. Riveting IMO.

In that show the NCAA all but said they would never give another death penalty to a program. The whole process of going through it took a heavy toll on the NCAA investigators. The lead person,I forget his name,passed out after stepping off the stage from giving the official announcement, from all of the stress he had endured. Miami will get some heavy,heavy penalties but I doubt they will be given the death blow.

WVRed
08-19-2011, 11:03 AM
There are many reasons to follow and mock the Miami Hurricanes scandal, ranging from the large dollar amounts to the spectacle of a 40 year old man sad that his college “friends” would forget about him after he stopped giving them money. But in addition to the national part of the story, there are many local angles as well. We have talked a great deal about Clint Hurtt, the Louisville Recruiting Coordinator who is at the center of the scandal, but UK fans should not forget about the former Miami Athletic Director’s role as well. Paul Dee was in charge of the Miami program for 15 years, from 1993-2008 and as such, had the job of overseeing the out of control Hurricane ship. He hired Butch Davis, followed him up with Larry Coker and then finished the sundae with Randy Shannon. In addition, he headed many fundraising efforts and became very close with one Nevin Shapiro, the booster who is alleged to have given over $2,000,000 in illegal inducements to Miami athletes.

Shapiro’s relationship with the players has been well-documented in the thorough Yahoo Sports report But Shapiro was also very close to Dee himself, taking a number of donations from the booster and at one point, having Shapiro lead the Hurricanes on the field before the game. He either knew of Shapiro’s relationship with the players or was willfully negligent in discovering why this 40 year old man seemed to be “boys” with all of his football players, while donating huge sums of money to the school.

The Yahoo story shows that Dee is clearly an incompetent, or potentially dirty, Athletics Director. However it is also clear that Dee is a hypocrite in every sense of the word. From 2008-2010, Dee was in charge of the NCAA Committee on Infractions. He oversaw two high profile cases in USC football and Memphis basketball. During those two hearings, Dee decided to use his power to move the NCAA into a different realm of enforcement than it had previously ever enter into. Whereas before, some form of knowledge was usually required to give a school sanctions, Dee began the notion of “strict liability” in NCAA enforcement. He essentially claimed that anything that happens on a school’s campus or in connection with its programs, should be known by the administrators and if it is not…well that is tough.

In both the USC and Memphis cases, knowledge of the infringing actions was never shown, and in the Memphis case never alleged. Still Dee took the position that the programs and coaches such as Calipari should be punished on a strict liability basis. He famously said, “high profile players demand high profile compliance.” While making those comments, Dee set himself out to be a new renegade enforcer of college athletics, sick of excuses and forcing compliance to all rules. And yet now we find out that Dee oversaw what potentially may be the most egregious rule-breaking over the past two decades in college athletics. Whereas USC had one main player (Reggie Bush) who took money from outside boosters/agents and Memphis had one player (Derrick Rose) whose ACT score was in question, Miami has 72 CONFIRMED players who took illegal benefits. And all of those benefits were taken from a booster so connected to the program that he was allowed to run out on the field with the team at a home game.

Hypocrisy is a word thrown around all the time in the world and it is often not appropriate for the situation. But in this case, hypocrisy doesn’t even seem a strong enough term. Paul Dee oversaw a committee that took down John Calipari and the Memphis basketball program by creating a new “no knowledge needed” standard never before enforced. Now Calipari is somewhere likely seething as this same man who took away his program’s accomplishments with a self-righteous standard that he was clearly not capable of following, is now proven to have been the head of the greatest rogue program of them all. All Miami games should, and one would presume will, be vacated and the program must receive the maximum punishment. But more importantly, Paul Dee has been shown to be the worst type of leader, a hypocritical weasel of a man who believes his calling is to chastise others while he willfully neglects the own rot under his nose. Matt Jones....Kentucky sports radio 8-18-11:thumbup::thumbup::beerme:

Here's the link

http://kentuckysportsradio.com/?p=90036

I don't see Miami getting the death penalty because the NCAA is afraid of exercising too much power, especially if Ohio State gets off with a lesser sentence. It would give more creedence to the superconference idea proposed by Calipari in which the major conferences kick the NCAA to the curb.

Should Miami get the death penalty? Absolutely. I do think they won't be able to field a competitive team for awhile though once this is finished.

BuckeyeRed27
08-19-2011, 12:10 PM
The only way Miami gets the death penalty is if there is hard evidence that not only did coaches and administrators know about Shapiro, but they were active in driving players and recruits to him to recieve benefits. Simply knowing he existed I don't think will be enough to kill the program.

Todd Gack
08-19-2011, 12:18 PM
Looks like there are a lot of specifics in these charges. Names, amounts of money exchanged, specific services received, etc. Two former Miami players confirmed that Shapiro paid prostitutes, escorts or strippers to have sex with football players in various settings. Multiple sources who interacted with Shapiro corroborated in detail the manner in which the booster doled out specific benefits as he violated NCAA rules. Does this look like just some felon blowing smoke?

Basically, I believe some were paid, but not the extent that's being reported by Yahoo! Look up Vegas franklin's profile as one of the 72 athletes 'involved.' This is prime example #1 why this isn't a big of deal as reported by Yahoo! A bit sensationalized IMO.


Miami booster Nevin Shapiro alleges he provided a handful of extra benefits to Vegas Franklin during his career with the Hurricanes. Among the benefits he claimed to have provided:

• Drinks and VIP access in nightclubs.

Corroborating accounts

• One source corroborated Shapiro entertaining Vegas Franklin with drinks and VIP access in nightclubs.

In Shapiro’s words

• “Vegas Franklin was a nice kid. He came from Louisiana. [I] saw him in the club a number of times. [I] never got real close [personally].”

that's it? A booster paying for drinks and VIP access? Oh the humanity.

Todd Gack
08-19-2011, 12:27 PM
Here's the link

Should Miami get the death penalty? Absolutely. I do think they won't be able to field a competitive team for awhile though once this is finished.

Tell me again, why should they get the death penalty? Just because it's Miami?

Chip R
08-19-2011, 01:02 PM
Basically, I believe some were paid, but not the extent that's being reported by Yahoo! Look up Vegas franklin's profile as one of the 72 athletes 'involved.' This is prime example #1 why this isn't a big of deal as reported by Yahoo! A bit sensationalized IMO.


that's it? A booster paying for drinks and VIP access? Oh the humanity.

So before you intimated that this was just the ramblings of a felon and the evidence is flimsy. Now you say there was something going on but not as bad as Yahoo has reported. Which one is it?

It doesn't matter whether or not you believe it's a bad thing for Shapiro to give these players money, cars, buy them drinks, take them on his yacht, etc. It's against NCAA rules and that's why Miami is going to get nailed.

jojo
08-19-2011, 01:30 PM
So before you intimated that this was just the ramblings of a felon and the evidence is flimsy. Now you say there was something going on but not as bad as Yahoo has reported. Which one is it?

It doesn't matter whether or not you believe it's a bad thing for Shapiro to give these players money, cars, buy them drinks, take them on his yacht, etc. It's against NCAA rules and that's why Miami is going to get nailed.

The problem for Miami is that there is corroborated evidence (i.e. witness testimony consistent with a paper trail of bank/phone records etc) of substantial special benefits being received by a large group of players with the knowledge of key members on the coaching staff.

WVRed
08-19-2011, 01:58 PM
Tell me again, why should they get the death penalty? Just because it's Miami?

I think the previous two posts before this one sums it up.

Are you a Hurricanes fan? Judging by your responses it would seem that way.

Reds4Life
08-21-2011, 09:31 AM
The sad part, stuff like this goes on at every major D1 program, and the NCAA lets some get away with it, and other pay through the nose. The NCAA is about one thing....cash. Truck loads of it. If your school is creating lots of cash, you can get away with murder. If you aren't, then watch out.

I agree that there are many schools that need radical reform in their athletic departments, etc, but first the NCAA needs to take a look in the mirror and start reforming itself first. I find it a little odd that it's ok for the NCAA to make millions marketing student athletes, but if a 20 year old kid accepts a "gift", they get hammered for it.

WVRed
08-21-2011, 09:19 PM
The sad part, stuff like this goes on at every major D1 program, and the NCAA lets some get away with it, and other pay through the nose. The NCAA is about one thing....cash. Truck loads of it. If your school is creating lots of cash, you can get away with murder. If you aren't, then watch out.

I agree that there are many schools that need radical reform in their athletic departments, etc, but first the NCAA needs to take a look in the mirror and start reforming itself first. I find it a little odd that it's ok for the NCAA to make millions marketing student athletes, but if a 20 year old kid accepts a "gift", they get hammered for it.

Cartman slave...I mean, student athlete owner - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uOfhHcRjF8)

texasdave
08-22-2011, 07:36 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/football/ncaa/08/22/miami-investigation.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a5&eref=sihp

Todd Gack
08-30-2011, 06:47 PM
So before you intimated that this was just the ramblings of a felon and the evidence is flimsy. Now you say there was something going on but not as bad as Yahoo has reported. Which one is it?

It doesn't matter whether or not you believe it's a bad thing for Shapiro to give these players money, cars, buy them drinks, take them on his yacht, etc. It's against NCAA rules and that's why Miami is going to get nailed.

So we go from 72 players in the report, down to 12 possible players, down to 8 players suspended by the NCAA to only 3 guys being suspended more than 1 game.

Yup. That appears to be pretty flimsy evidence.

DEATH PENALTY!



NCAA News Release
Eight Miami Football Student-Athletes Must Sit Out Games and Repay Benefits

For Immediate Release

Tuesday, August 30, 2011

Contact(s)

Stacey Osburn
Associate Director of Public and Media Relations
317/917-6117

INDIANAPOLIS---Eight University of Miami football student-athletes must miss competition and repay benefits as a condition of becoming eligible to play again, according to a decision today by the NCAA student-athlete reinstatement staff. The student-athletes received varying levels of recruiting inducements and extra benefits from university booster Nevin Shapiro and athletics personnel, according to the facts of the case.

Reinstatement decisions are independent of the NCAA enforcement process and typically are made once the facts of the student-athlete’s involvement are determined. This is typically well in advance of infractions decisions. The enforcement investigation into the University of Miami is ongoing.

Of the eight football student-athletes, three received substantial benefits as prospective student-athletes from Shapiro and athletics personnel to entice them to enroll at the university, which are considered some of the most serious recruiting violations within the NCAA.

Olivier Vernon, who received more than $1,200 in benefits primarily from Shapiro, must miss six games and make repayment of the value of the benefits. These recruitment benefits included meals, transportation, access to Shapiro’s game suite, drinks, as well as cover charges at two different nightclubs, among others.

Two other student-athletes, Aravious Armstrong and Dyron Dye, will miss four games and must make repayment. Armstrong received approximately $788 in extra benefits from Shapiro and athletics personnel during his recruitment. Dye received approximately $738. These student-athletes’ benefits included five nights of impermissible lodging from institutional staff during their unofficial visits, transportation, multiple meals, and entertainment at a gentleman’s club.

Different than the first three student-athletes, five other student-athletes received impermissible benefits while currently enrolled at the university.

These five student-athletes – Marcus Forston, Sean Ryan Spence, Adewale Ojomo, Travis Benjamin and Jacory Harris – must miss one game and make repayment. Forston received more than $400 in extra benefits from Shapiro and athletic personnel, including athletic equipment, meals, nightclub cover charges and entertainment at a gentleman’s club. Spence received approximately $275 in benefits, including meals, transportation, as well as cover charges and entertainment at a gentleman’s club. Ojomo received $240 in extra benefits, including a meal and nightclub cover charges. Benjamin received more than $150 in extra benefits, including meals and entertainment. Harris received more than $140 in benefits from meals, entertainment, transportation and nightclub cover charges.

During the student-athlete reinstatement process, the staff considers a number of factors including guidelines established by the Division I NCAA Committee on Student-Athlete Reinstatement for the type of violations and value of benefits, if a significant competitive advantage was gained, the student-athlete’s responsibility for the violations and any mitigating circumstances presented by the school, among other factors.

“From regular reviews of our rules to the presidential retreat earlier this month, our members have continually stressed that involvement of third parties during recruitment will not be tolerated, and there must be accountability for inappropriate behavior,” said Kevin Lennon, NCAA vice president of academic and membership affairs.

When a school discovers an NCAA rules violation has occurred, it must declare the student-athlete ineligible and may request the student-athlete’s eligibility be reinstated. The NCAA staff reviews each student-athlete’s reinstatement request individually based on its own merits and set of specific facts, which are agreed upon by the university and the NCAA enforcement staff. The University of Miami has not submitted any additional reinstatement requests at this time.

"The NCAA has informed the University of Miami of their decisions regarding the reinstatement of eight student-athletes who were declared ineligible by the University last week,” said University of Miami Director of Athletics Shawn Eichorst. “The student-athletes involved have acknowledged receiving improper benefits and will now be responsible for restitution and, in some cases, the student-athletes will also serve game suspensions. They understand that their actions demand consequences.

"This university has the highest standards in all of our academic and athletic endeavors. We will remain steadfast in our commitment to continue to build winning programs with the utmost of integrity. We will be more vigilant in our compliance and continue to work with the NCAA on the joint investigation to determine the facts.

"We appreciate the diligence and understanding of the NCAA staff and its handling of the student-athlete eligibility issues in an expeditious manner. I would also like to thank Coach Golden and his staff for their professionalism and leadership over the past few weeks."

The reinstatement process typically concludes prior to the close of the enforcement investigation, which must determine the university’s responsibility for violations. While it depends on the complexity of the case, most student-athlete reinstatement requests are resolved in about a week after the school has provided a complete request and the reinstatement staff has all the necessary information. In contrast an enforcement investigation, which also varies in length depending on the complexity, must look at the totality of issues and takes an average of 11 months. For this reason, student-athlete reinstatement decisions do not signal that an enforcement investigation is complete.

The university can appeal any student-athlete reinstatement decision to the Committee on Student-Athlete Reinstatement, an independent panel comprised of representatives from NCAA member colleges, university and athletic conferences who are not directly affiliated with the university. This committee can reduce or remove the condition, but it cannot increase the staff-imposed conditions. If appealed, the student-athlete remains ineligible until the conclusion of the appeals process.

Read more about the NCAA student-athlete reinstatement process at ncaa.org.

Todd Gack
08-30-2011, 06:49 PM
As I said, I wasn't going to go through all of the instances where there was pretty flimsy evidence and most of the situations made no sense, but the NCAA pretty believes what I believed. A little sensationalization from Yahoo!


Of the eight football student-athletes, three received substantial benefits as prospective student-athletes from Shapiro and athletics personnel to entice them to enroll at the university, which are considered some of the most serious recruiting violations within the NCAA.



1. Olivier Vernon = received more than $1,200 in benefits...recruitment benefits included meals, transportation, access to Shapiro’s game suite, drinks, as well as cover charges at two different nightclubs, among others.



2. Aravious Armstrong = received approximately $788 in extra benefits from Shapiro and athletics personnel during his recruitment.



3. Dyron Dye = received approximately $738. These student-athletes’ benefits included five nights of impermissible lodging from institutional staff during their unofficial visits, transportation, multiple meals, and entertainment at a gentleman’s club.


4. Marcus Forston = Forston received more than $400 in extra benefits from Shapiro and athletic personnel, including athletic equipment, meals, nightclub cover charges and entertainment at a gentleman’s club.

5. Sean Ryan Spence = Spence received approximately $275 in benefits, including meals, transportation, as well as cover charges and entertainment at a gentleman’s club.

6. Adewale Ojomo = Ojomo received $240 in extra benefits, including a meal and nightclub cover charges.

7. Travis Benjamin = Benjamin received more than $150 in extra benefits, including meals and entertainment.

8. Jacory Harris = Harris received more than $140 in benefits from meals, entertainment, transportation and nightclub cover charges.

BuckeyeRed27
08-30-2011, 07:01 PM
As I said, I wasn't going to go through all of the instances where there was pretty flimsy evidence and most of the situations made no sense, but the NCAA pretty believes what I believed. A little sensationalization from Yahoo!

I'm not sure how you can spin this into a good thing for Miami. It starts to validate the story. The NCAA can't penalize 72 players because many of them aren't in school anymore. So they punished the 8 they could prove or admitted to wrong doing.

Todd Gack
08-30-2011, 09:48 PM
I'm not sure how you can spin this into a good thing for Miami. It starts to validate the story. The NCAA can't penalize 72 players because many of them aren't in school anymore. So they punished the 8 they could prove or admitted to wrong doing.


Of course they were paid. Out of these 8 players suspended, there was a total of $4,000 in benefits provided not including 4 players who were given less than $100 who were not suspended and are allowed to pay the money back.

The NCAA has been investigating this for 5 months. It's not like they just started. What basically happened is that the administration and coaches knew about the guy, but they couldn't keep him away from the kids in public. Randy Shannon banned this guy from practice and warned them multiple times to stay away from him.

The only bad part to come from this story is that Jacory harris was only suspended one game. :)

Chip R
10-22-2013, 11:12 AM
Bottom line is the football team is going to lose a few schollys over the next 3 years.

http://news.yahoo.com/ap-source-miami-football-hoops-lose-scholarships-133253402--spt.html

WMR
10-22-2013, 12:54 PM
Wow, how dirty can UL get??

Going to keep Mr. Show Cause Hurtt on staff and just not let him recruit until his show cause lapses...

Dumbfounded.

You can cheat while recruiting players at Miami, have those players you cheated to recruit follow you to your new school, get CAUGHT cheating, and STILL keep your job? SMH.

Of course, this is the AD and President that kept Pitino after his abortions, using a staff position to pay off a dude for marrying his floozy, etc. etc.

Makes you wonder what dirt Hurtt has on Strong and UL. What are the chances he actually quit all of his cheating at UL? He probably knows where enough of the bodies are buried to screw UL majorly. (Wonder how much he paid for Bridgewater?)

Boston Red
10-22-2013, 01:42 PM
Dumbfounded.


My exact emotion when I saw that it was someone other than you who had resurfaced this topic earlier today. I can't believe you were so slow to respond.

jojo
10-22-2013, 02:07 PM
This sounds like a wrist slap but Miami already self-imposed a 2 year post season ban including a potential ACC championship and it's uncertain how many scholarships that Miami has already stripped from their program.

Sea Ray
10-22-2013, 03:12 PM
That's a far cry from the Gloom and Doom predictions earlier in this thread that warned of a 5 yr ban, 10 scholarships a year and maybe even a death penalty. Seems to me that the program is humming along just fine

BuckeyeRed27
10-22-2013, 04:10 PM
That's a far cry from the Gloom and Doom predictions earlier in this thread that warned of a 5 yr ban, 10 scholarships a year and maybe even a death penalty. Seems to me that the program is humming along just fine

The NCAA massively screwed up this investigation. Given all their missteps it's pretty amazing they even passed down this punishment.

Chip R
10-22-2013, 04:21 PM
The NCAA massively screwed up this investigation. Given all their missteps it's pretty amazing they even passed down this punishment.

Yeah. If that was a criminal case, it would have been thrown out of court.

KronoRed
10-22-2013, 04:31 PM
Sad to see the Ncaa become a paper tiger, absolutely no danger anymore in programs blatantly engaging in cheating.

jojo
10-22-2013, 05:05 PM
The NCAA massively screwed up this investigation. Given all their missteps it's pretty amazing they even passed down this punishment.

And lets be honest, if the NCAA's transgressions weren't revealed, Miami would've been tattooed.

Revering4Blue
10-22-2013, 05:19 PM
And lets be honest, if the NCAA's transgressions weren't revealed, Miami would've been tattooed.

Maybe. Maybe not.

As your previous post states, The "U" took it upon themselves with significant self-imposed penalties.

Contrast this with USC's situation, where upon the Trojan powers-that-be (instead of self-imposing and accepting responsibility -- knowing full well that they were guilty) appealed the process, stocking up on high-rated recruits in the process before the hammer fell. That's why scholarships were not recently renewed via Pat Haden's recent appeal, which played a major factor in the severity of punishment.

WMR
10-22-2013, 05:33 PM
My exact emotion when I saw that it was someone other than you who had resurfaced this topic earlier today. I can't believe you were so slow to respond.

I take this response to mean that you're okay with keeping Hurtt on staff despite him being levied with a Show Cause?

If he was a coach at UK, I would want him gone.

Did you read Jurich's "statement"? :eek:

Boston Red
10-22-2013, 05:36 PM
I would have preferred they let him go. If he commits a violation at Louisville, it's going to be major trouble. Not sure he's worth that risk.

improbus
10-22-2013, 05:38 PM
The "threat" of NCAA sanctions hovering over Miami were penalty enough. Al Golden had to convince years worth of recruits to come to a school potentially facing major sanctions. This, along with the self-imposed bowl ban, was enough.

On a side note, why would any school "self-impose" penalties anymore? The NCAA is feckless and doesn't have the credibility to impose any real sanctions on schools. In the past few years, they botched the Miami situation (relying on a convicted felon amongst other things) and completely overstepped their authority in the Penn State situation.

BuckeyeRed27
10-22-2013, 06:08 PM
The "threat" of NCAA sanctions hovering over Miami were penalty enough. Al Golden had to convince years worth of recruits to come to a school potentially facing major sanctions. This, along with the self-imposed bowl ban, was enough.

On a side note, why would any school "self-impose" penalties anymore? The NCAA is feckless and doesn't have the credibility to impose any real sanctions on schools. In the past few years, they botched the Miami situation (relying on a convicted felon amongst other things) and completely overstepped their authority in the Penn State situation.

Well a big part of the reason that the NCAA sanctions were so light was because Miami self imposed a 2 year bowl ban. Had they not done that, this would have been far worse than USC.

WVRed
10-23-2013, 02:45 PM
I take this response to mean that you're okay with keeping Hurtt on staff despite him being levied with a Show Cause?

If he was a coach at UK, I would want him gone.

Did you read Jurich's "statement"? :eek:

http://www.wdrb.com/story/23758344/bozich-

Good to see somebody in the Louisville media stand up to Papa Tom.

I seriously wouldn't be shocked if within the next five years something comes out about Bridgewater that puts Louisville on probation and I would say this even if I didn't pull for a rival team. Louisville and Jurich made their bed with Hurtt and I really wouldn't be shocked if there isn't more to the story. I'd say when it happens Charlie Strong and Clint Hurtt will be nowhere around either.

I absolutely love some of the pictures out there by the way:

http://ksr.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/bathurtt.jpg

The reason for this one is Hurtt called his unregistered cell phone the "Batphone".

http://ksr.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/four-core-values.jpg

All I know is no Louisville fan should ever call Calipari into question again.

paintmered
10-24-2013, 08:23 PM
So let's assume that Louisville is doing something illegal, and committing the worst violations in NCAA history (that's a high bar). The growth in their program the last five years got them into the ACC and the extra $20+ million per year that comes along with it. No sanction thrown at them will take that away. Worth it.

So why would anyone play by the rules again?

joshnky
10-25-2013, 10:16 AM
So let's assume that Louisville is doing something illegal, and committing the worst violations in NCAA history (that's a high bar). The growth in their program the last five years got them into the ACC and the extra $20+ million per year that comes along with it. No sanction thrown at them will take that away. Worth it.

So why would anyone play by the rules again?

And let's be clear, despite Clint hurtt being under a microscope, there is no evidence that he or anyone else has committed any violations at UofL.

Violations like these occur at schools with booster "problems". UofL (and UK) don't have the same issues with boosters as Miami, USC, or Ohio State because people aren't as crazy about football.

BuckeyeRed27
10-25-2013, 01:26 PM
And let's be clear, despite Clint hurtt being under a microscope, there is no evidence that he or anyone else has committed any violations at UofL.

Violations like these occur at schools with booster "problems". UofL (and UK) don't have the same issues with boosters as Miami, USC, or Ohio State because people aren't as crazy about football.

Keep telling yourself that.

New York Red
10-25-2013, 01:27 PM
The Miami ruling is a joke. A decade of cheating, involving multiple coaches, multiple sports, and over 100 recruits and/or players, and the result is a loss of 12 schollies over a three-year period (9 in football and 3 in basketball)? What kind of cheating is going to have to take place now in order for a school to get hit hard? Anything short of a Penn State type scandal is apparently now considered nothing. The NCAA should just close their doors and let college sports become an outlaw organization (more so than it already is in some places).

Clint Hurrt lied to NCAA investigators while employed by the University of Louisville, so lets not pretend he's been clean at UofL. Louisville and Tom Jurich showed everyone when they kept Pitino after the Karen Sypher fiasco that they place winning above everything else, and by keeping Clint Hurtt on staff, they're showing everyone things haven't changed at the Ville. That's just a dirty athletics department all around.

Boston Red
10-25-2013, 01:42 PM
The national outcry over the "dirty" Louisville athletic department is deafening. It's been AT LEAST a week since I've seen a national writer claim that Tom Jurich is the best athletic director in America. The number of times Louisville has been on probation since he's been on campus is shameful. Clearly, he's not trying.

New York Red
10-25-2013, 02:26 PM
The national outcry over the "dirty" Louisville athletic department is deafening. It's been AT LEAST a week since I've seen a national writer claim that Tom Jurich is the best athletic director in America. The number of times Louisville has been on probation since he's been on campus is shameful. Clearly, he's not trying.
Two things:

National outcry? No one in this country, outiside Jefferson County and rival's internet message boards, give a moment's thought to UofL.

It's basically become impossible to get on "probation" now. The fact Miami will be playing in a bowl game this year is all the reminder you need. It's obviously possible to be dirty without paying a price for it. See the North Carolina athletics department for another example.

bucksfan2
10-25-2013, 02:30 PM
As an OSU fan who IMO got hit hard with a penalty this should bother me. But it really doesn't. The U has had this investigation hovering over them for a number of years now. They have punished themselves already and the players who are on the team now have done nothing wrong. I hope the NCAA acts more in line with this for the next investigation. Don't draw the investigation out for years and then hammer the team on top of that.

New York Red
10-25-2013, 02:40 PM
As an OSU fan who IMO got hit hard with a penalty this should bother me. But it really doesn't. The U has had this investigation hovering over them for a number of years now. They have punished themselves already and the players who are on the team now have done nothing wrong. I hope the NCAA acts more in line with this for the next investigation. Don't draw the investigation out for years and then hammer the team on top of that.
If this investigation was a sign of how things are going to be from this point forward, the NCAA just needs to shut down and let schools police themselves.

Boston Red
10-25-2013, 02:59 PM
National outcry? No one in this country, outiside Jefferson County and rival's internet message boards, give a moment's thought to UofL.


Hah, no one watched the Final Four last year? Or the Sugar Bowl? Or the Women's national championship (you may have me there)? Or the College World Series?

That's interesting to note. It's amazing Louisville was able to con their way into the ACC with that being the case.

New York Red
10-25-2013, 03:54 PM
Hah, no one watched the Final Four last year? Or the Sugar Bowl? Or the Women's national championship (you may have me there)? Or the College World Series?

That's interesting to note. It's amazing Louisville was able to con their way into the ACC with that being the case.
You're right. No one was going to watch those events if UofL wasn't there. :p

Also, I'm glad UofL wound up in a legitimate conference, but there wasn't much left to choose from when the ACC invited them.

Boston Red
10-25-2013, 04:20 PM
You're right. No one was going to watch those events if UofL wasn't there. :p


But they were. In all of them. Interesting to note that people are so able to turn off their brains and not give Louisville a thought while constantly watching them play.

jojo
10-25-2013, 04:29 PM
But they were. In all of them. Interesting to note that people are so able to turn off their brains and not give Louisville a thought while constantly watching them play.

I tried to watch Louisville play football this year but fell asleep at the start of the second quarter. I did have a dream with Kate Upton in it though so there's that.