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Kc61
08-18-2011, 11:08 PM
Reds are dismal to watch.

Bring up Francisco who brings needed pop against righty pitching. This is not to debate the merits of JF. But he will add some excitement and power.

Bring up Mes already. He will add excitement too. Reds top prospect, catcher of the future. Let's see him already.

These moves might help us watch the paint dry.

toledodan
08-18-2011, 11:42 PM
i agree 100% i'm also tired of watching this team play short handed. i would release lewis friday and bring those 2 up.

1)phillips 2B
2)alonso LF
3)voto 1B
4)bruce RF
5)mes C
6)francisco 3B
7)stubbs CF
8)frazier SS

there's my batting order the rest of the season. maybe split the left handers up but i'm cool with the way that is. go ahead blast away.:D

Matt700wlw
08-18-2011, 11:44 PM
i agree 100% i'm also tired of watching this team play short handed. i would release lewis friday and bring those 2 up.

1)phillips 2B
2)alonso LF
3)voto 1B
4)bruce RF
5)mes C
6)francisco 3B
7)stubbs CF
8)frazier SS

there's my batting order the rest of the season. maybe split the left handers up but i'm cool with the way that is. go ahead blast away.:D

Back to back to back lefties may cause Dusty to have convulsions.

toledodan
08-18-2011, 11:50 PM
Back to back to back lefties may cause Dusty to have convulsions.


no doubt. however something has got to give. alonso getting 1 AB per game is not cutting it. he needs to be in there somewhere. the season is over. heck even the royals are smart enough to play their young kids. give the youngsters extended looks.

fearofpopvol1
08-19-2011, 01:39 AM
It is simply outrageous at this point that Mez isn't brought up. Option Janish back to AAA and bring up Mez. We need to find out what we have at The Show.

reds44
08-19-2011, 02:01 AM
Alonso isn't going to play LF, Frazier isn't going to play SS.

IslandRed
08-19-2011, 09:20 AM
It is simply outrageous at this point that Mez isn't brought up. Option Janish back to AAA and bring up Mez. We need to find out what we have at The Show.

So we're going to carry three good catchers and one aging, gimpy shortstop? Even garbage time needs a little structure. :p

Yeah, I want to see Mesoraco too, but September 1 is only twelve days away.

traderumor
08-19-2011, 10:23 AM
Reds are dismal to watch.

Bring up Francisco who brings needed pop against righty pitching. This is not to debate the merits of JF. But he will add some excitement and power.

Bring up Mes already. He will add excitement too. Reds top prospect, catcher of the future. Let's see him already.

These moves might help us watch the paint dry.Done playing with the other prospects already? Like I said, prospects are like toys at Christmas. Can't wait to see what you got, then looking for new toys by New Year's Day.

toledodan
08-19-2011, 10:30 AM
Alonso isn't going to play LF, Frazier isn't going to play SS.

only because of toothpick.

RANDY IN INDY
08-19-2011, 11:16 AM
Watched Francisco vs Indianapolis last night. What I saw was a very lazy player with more attitude than the rest of the team, combined. Didn't run out ground balls. Walked to his position every inning. Got one single after which he flipped his bat toward the dugout and ran to first like he had hit a home run. Very disinterested in the field with a very scattered looking arm. Swung at a lot of bad pitches at the plate. I came away not liking what I saw.

Mesoraco, on the other hand, was totally into the game. Hustled at his position and acted like a hungry minor leaguer looking for his shot at the big leagues. Was even hard on himself after his throws to second each inning that weren't perfect, while still very good. His arm looked accurate and strong with a nice quick release. Very impressed. Looked to have a good understanding of the strike zone at the plate and a very quick bat. Was walked intentionally, twice. Look forward to seeing him behind the plate with the Reds.

Chip R
08-19-2011, 11:20 AM
Reds are dismal to watch.

Bring up Francisco who brings needed pop against righty pitching. This is not to debate the merits of JF. But he will add some excitement and power.

Bring up Mes already. He will add excitement too. Reds top prospect, catcher of the future. Let's see him already.

These moves might help us watch the paint dry.

Where are they going to play? Frazier and Cairo are at 3rd until Rolen comes back. Hanigan and Hernandez are catching. I don't see how it does them any good to sit on the bench in the big leagues. I would agree if they would start most of the time but they won't.

Kc61
08-19-2011, 11:24 AM
Where are they going to play? Frazier and Cairo are at 3rd until Rolen comes back. Hanigan and Hernandez are catching. I don't see how it does them any good to sit on the bench in the big leagues. I would agree if they would start most of the time but they won't.

Easy.

Hernandez should be waived or traded for a prospect right now. Overdue. That makes room for Mes.

Lewis should be waived or traded for a prospect right now. Overdue. That makes room for JF.

Mes would get plenty of playing time at catcher sharing with Hanigan.

Francisco would get plenty of playing time at third base platooning with Cairo. Frazier can play left field. Sappelt can play back up, which, IMO, is his proper position.

Rolen? I'll believe it when I see him.

Chip R
08-19-2011, 11:42 AM
Easy.

Hernandez should be waived or traded for a prospect right now. Overdue. That makes room for Mes.

Lewis should be waived or traded for a prospect right now. Overdue. That makes room for JF.

Mes would get plenty of playing time at catcher sharing with Hanigan.

Francisco would get plenty of playing time at third base platooning with Cairo. Frazier can play left field. Sappelt can play back up, which, IMO, is his proper position.

Rolen? I'll believe it when I see him.


All easier said than done. If Hernandez or Lewis aren't traded or released in the case of Lewis - which they probably won't be - you still have the same problems. If Francisco is up here I don't want to see him platooning. I want to see him hit lefties and righties. As for LF, people have been screaming for Sappelt since ST amd now you want to have him sit on the bench? What about Alonso? Isn't he going to play LF? Or is he going to play 3rd? If he's playing 3rd then there are 3 guys for 1 position - 4 when Rolen comes back which he probably will. If we could play with a rover like in softball or with 12 guys in the field, I'd be more than happy to bring them up but they aren't going to play so why bother?

Kc61
08-19-2011, 11:51 AM
All easier said than done. If Hernandez or Lewis aren't traded or released in the case of Lewis - which they probably won't be - you still have the same problems. If Francisco is up here I don't want to see him platooning. I want to see him hit lefties and righties. As for LF, people have been screaming for Sappelt since ST amd now you want to have him sit on the bench? What about Alonso? Isn't he going to play LF? Or is he going to play 3rd? If he's playing 3rd then there are 3 guys for 1 position - 4 when Rolen comes back which he probably will. If we could play with a rover like in softball or with 12 guys in the field, I'd be more than happy to bring them up but they aren't going to play so why bother?

Well, it's a matter of prioritizing.

Personally, I think Sappelt is a pure backup. He will get hot with singles and doubles occasionally. But he doesn't walk and has little power. He doesn't need to play every day.

Alonso has no position on this team. His status needs to be handled off the field -- yes front office, this might entail a PLAYER TRANSACTION. I'd be happy for him to play, but there's no place on the field for him right now.

Frazier is IMO a potential Mark Loretta type, a super utility guy with pop, could be a valuable guy. (Reds did him a BIG FAVOR in my view letting him roam around the field as a kid.) I would give Frazier playing time, but at various positions.

Cozart (who I like), Rolen, Heisey are all hurt. I'll worry about them when they return.

Cairo and Renteria don't need a lot of at bats right now.

Oddly, if you want to talk third base, there is no battle among youngsters for playing time. CAIRO is getting most of the reps. That doesn't make sense to me at this time of year.

If one follows this scheme and sells off guys like Hernandez and Lewis, as I suggest, there will be plenty of playing time to go around.

Thing is, it has to be a priority for the ballclub. Right now, it is not. The priority seems to be having a respectable record this season, using veterans. Kids are mostly playing due to injury, not design. If that mindset changes, there will be room for all the major AAA prospects.

fearofpopvol1
08-19-2011, 03:26 PM
So we're going to carry three good catchers and one aging, gimpy shortstop? Even garbage time needs a little structure. :p

Yeah, I want to see Mesoraco too, but September 1 is only twelve days away.

You've got Cairo who can play there as well. DFA Fred Lewis. There are plenty of options to get him up here and the Reds aren't exactly vying for a playoff spot.

Orenda
08-19-2011, 03:57 PM
Watched Francisco vs Indianapolis last night. What I saw was a very lazy player with more attitude than the rest of the team, combined. Didn't run out ground balls. Walked to his position every inning. Got one single after which he flipped his bat toward the dugout and ran to first like he had hit a home run. Very disinterested in the field with a very scattered looking arm. Swung at a lot of bad pitches at the plate. I came away not liking what I saw.



The Louisville Indy series has been televised in my area so I was flipping back and forth from the Reds and the Bats trying to get glimpses of Francisco, Mesoraco, etc.

Two games ago I watched Francisco work the count 3-0 taking some close pitches, then he swings 3-0 at a fastball... AND was LATE, popping it out of play, before singling on the next pitch. Yesterday he works the count 3-1 putting himself into the drivers seat before the opposing pitcher gets him to strikeout on two fastballs at his feet.

I don't want to count him out, but someone on that coaching staff needs to get him to realize that taking a BB is not a bad thing, because to me it looked like it wasn't that he had no clue of the strikezone but that he'd rather try to drive the ball than take a BB. I know this is something other posters have mentioned who follow these guys more closely but in the very slim sample I saw, that is what it looked like.

RANDY IN INDY
08-19-2011, 04:00 PM
Someone on that coaching staff needs to let him know that he is not "entitled" to a big league job. Very cocky, lot of antics before the game and trash talking.

dougdirt
08-19-2011, 04:16 PM
The Louisville Indy series has been televised in my area so I was flipping back and forth from the Reds and the Bats trying to get glimpses of Francisco, Mesoraco, etc.

Two games ago I watched Francisco work the count 3-0 taking some close pitches, then he swings 3-0 at a fastball... AND was LATE, popping it out of play, before singling on the next pitch. Yesterday he works the count 3-1 putting himself into the drivers seat before the opposing pitcher gets him to strikeout on two fastballs at his feet.

I don't want to count him out, but someone on that coaching staff needs to get him to realize that taking a BB is not a bad thing, because to me it looked like it wasn't that he had no clue of the strikezone but that he'd rather try to drive the ball than take a BB. I know this is something other posters have mentioned who follow these guys more closely but in the very slim sample I saw, that is what it looked like.

That is exactly what I see when watching him. His strikezone judgement isn't as bad as the K/BB ratio makes it look. But man, he simply refuses to take ball four unless its an incredibly poor pitch.

Kc61
08-19-2011, 04:28 PM
JF has been trashed on RedsZone for years. Posters can trash him forever, but it doesn't change one thing.

The current Cincinnati Reds cannot score runs to save their lives. They have no attack other than Joey Votto and occasionally Jay Bruce. The team is dull, fails constantly in the clutch, and loses repeatedly to the worst teams in the league.

Francisco can belt the ball against right handers. Against RHP he can supply some power and maybe some excitement into this offense.

The other lefty hitter they did bring up, Alonso, happens to be blocked at his only position. Good planning, there.

So for the rest of this season bring up Francisco and Mesoraco. Add some excitement, maybe some long balls.

Ultimately, if the FO holds JF in the same disdain as many posters, he will be gone.

But for now, I'd much rather watch JF at the plate against righties than most of the players on this ballclub.

Unless Dusty thinks Fred Lewis' veteran presence is more important right now.

PuffyPig
08-19-2011, 05:55 PM
It is simply outrageous at this point that Mez isn't brought up. Option Janish back to AAA and bring up Mez. We need to find out what we have at The Show.


That would be fun, playing without a SS, as Renteria is injured.

757690
08-19-2011, 06:01 PM
That would be fun, playing without a SS, as Renteria is injured.

That might inflate the pitcher's BABIP just a bit. lol

CTA513
08-19-2011, 06:58 PM
That would be fun, playing without a SS, as Renteria is injured.

Move Votto to shortstop

;)

IslandRed
08-19-2011, 08:20 PM
That might inflate the pitcher's BABIP just a bit. lol

Agreed. Until September 1 when we can add arms to the bullpen, if we're giving away outs by the bushel, we're piling more work onto an already tired staff. "Who cares about defense" can only go so far without collateral damage.

edabbs44
08-19-2011, 08:23 PM
Move Votto to shortstop

;)

He's selfish. He wouldn't play there.

CTA513
08-19-2011, 08:53 PM
He's selfish. He wouldn't play there.

You just have to ask him in Canadian

Redhook
08-19-2011, 08:56 PM
My gut tells me I've seen enough of Fransisco to know I don't want him on my team. He's a complete hacker at the plate. I'm not a fan of that.

Kc61
08-19-2011, 09:06 PM
My gut tells me I've seen enough of Fransisco to know I don't want him on my team. He's a complete hacker at the plate. I'm not a fan of that.

Yeah, let's stick with Sappelt, Frazier and the rest of the sub-.200 club. They are not hackers. They are smooth.

PuffyPig
08-19-2011, 10:45 PM
Yeah, let's stick with Sappelt, Frazier and the rest of the sub-.200 club. They are not hackers. They are smooth.

When you use BA to rate offensive players, you lose credabilty.

Frazier's OPS of .746 is quite a bit above average.

And who's the rest?

Kc61
08-19-2011, 10:57 PM
When you use BA to rate offensive players, you lose credabilty.

Frazier's OPS of .746 is quite a bit above average.

And who's the rest?

Well, when a guy is below .200 BA I think it matters. But these are small samples.

I just think JF and DMes should be with the big club. That's my only point here.

I certainly wish Sappelt and Frazier and Alonso success with the Reds too.

PuffyPig
08-19-2011, 11:58 PM
Well, when a guy is below .200 BA I think it matters. But these are small samples.

I just think JF and DMes should be with the big club. That's my only point here.

I certainly wish Sappelt and Frazier and Alonso success with the Reds too.

A below .200 BA doesn't matter when the OPS is .750.

Your point was to complain about below .200 averages, when you failed to look at more meaningful stats.

And again, who are those others below .200 who need to be replaced?

Kc61
08-20-2011, 12:10 AM
A below .200 BA doesn't matter when the OPS is .750.

Your point was to complain about below .200 averages, when you failed to look at more meaningful stats.

And again, who are those others below .200 who need to be replaced?

Despite your position, any major league hitter below the Mendoza line has a problem.

Before tonight's game Frazier and Sappelt were both in that category.

And the point of this thread, which I started, is clear. I won't debate it with you. Just read the title and initial post.

Thanks.

PuffyPig
08-20-2011, 12:28 AM
Despite your position, any major league hitter below the Mendoza line has a problem.



My point is that BA is a very poor way to judge offensice abilty, especially in a small sample size.

Especially when the player you were berating has a OPS close to 50 points above the league average.

Kc61
08-20-2011, 12:40 AM
My point is that BA is a very poor way to judge offensice abilty, especially in a small sample size.

Especially when the player you were berating has a OPS close to 50 points above the league average.

Not berating anyone. Just think the Reds could use Francisco and Mes.

And I wouldn't replace any rookies right now, despite some poor early numbers.

I would replace Razor and Lewis, who aren't the future. As I said earlier in the thread.

pahster
08-20-2011, 01:38 PM
JF has been trashed on RedsZone for years. Posters can trash him forever, but it doesn't change one thing.

The current Cincinnati Reds cannot score runs to save their lives. They have no attack other than Joey Votto and occasionally Jay Bruce. The team is dull, fails constantly in the clutch, and loses repeatedly to the worst teams in the league.

Francisco can belt the ball against right handers. Against RHP he can supply some power and maybe some excitement into this offense.

The other lefty hitter they did bring up, Alonso, happens to be blocked at his only position. Good planning, there.

So for the rest of this season bring up Francisco and Mesoraco. Add some excitement, maybe some long balls.

Ultimately, if the FO holds JF in the same disdain as many posters, he will be gone.

But for now, I'd much rather watch JF at the plate against righties than most of the players on this ballclub.

Unless Dusty thinks Fred Lewis' veteran presence is more important right now.

If that's true, what do you think about the 14 NL offenses that have scored fewer runs so far this season?

Reds Freak
08-20-2011, 01:47 PM
Well, it's a matter of prioritizing.

Personally, I think Sappelt is a pure backup. He will get hot with singles and doubles occasionally. But he doesn't walk and has little power. He doesn't need to play every day.

Alonso has no position on this team. His status needs to be handled off the field -- yes front office, this might entail a PLAYER TRANSACTION. I'd be happy for him to play, but there's no place on the field for him right now.

Frazier is IMO a potential Mark Loretta type, a super utility guy with pop, could be a valuable guy. (Reds did him a BIG FAVOR in my view letting him roam around the field as a kid.) I would give Frazier playing time, but at various positions.

Cozart (who I like), Rolen, Heisey are all hurt. I'll worry about them when they return.

Cairo and Renteria don't need a lot of at bats right now.



I find it funny that you created this thread a few weeks ago: http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90849&highlight=sappelt

A few weeks in the bigs for Sappelt and Alonso and now you're done with them?

Kc61
08-20-2011, 02:39 PM
I find it funny that you created this thread a few weeks ago: http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90849&highlight=sappelt

A few weeks in the bigs for Sappelt and Alonso and now you're done with them?

If you've read my posts, you'd see that I am entirely consistent in wanting the Reds to bring up young players at this stage of the season. I would have preferred trades for proven guys, didn't happen, so I wanted Alonso, Sappelt and now I want Francisco and Mes.

As for Yonder and Sappelt, I'm not "through" with them. What I've said is that Alonso is hopelessly blocked by Votto. I do not think playing Yonder in LF or 3B will work. And I am concerned that the front office hasn't yet addressed the issue with a trade.

As for Sappelt, having watched him these few weeks, I think he will be a major leaguer but likely a backup player. I'm happy he's on the team getting a chance, but I don't think he requires daily play. I would just as soon see Frazier get some LF time.

In any event, even with Alonso and Sappelt on the ballclub, by shedding veterans there should be room for Francisco and Mes. As I've explained, I think they would both be positive additions for the rest of 2011.

Kc61
08-20-2011, 02:56 PM
If that's true, what do you think about the 14 NL offenses that have scored fewer runs so far this season?

I just don't think the Reds "runs scored" column tells the whole story.

For one thing, the Reds play in a home run stadium so naturally they should hit a high number of homers and score a lot of runs. Doesn't take a great offense to do so when you play 81 games at GABP. (And the Reds NEED to score more than other teams because their pitchers must throw in a home run stadium.)

Also, without any statistical backup, the Reds do seem to have scored bunches of runs in lopsided wins or against weaker pitchers. The offense hasn't seemed to come through frequently in tight ballgames this year. I know others have said this and it seems true to me. Certainly Dusty has said it.

But most important, just as a matter of lineup construction, the Reds have a hole in the middle. They have two enormously gifted guys in Votto and Bruce. Yet they lack a potent force hitting between them. IMO this would help the offense. I remember the days of Kevin Mitchell, and Ron Gant, and Dave Parker, and Greg Vaughn -- mid order hitters from other teams who still had gas in the tank when they became Reds. I think a new one is needed at this stage.

The Reds also have too many guys who don't hit righty pitching well. Their stats against righty pitching are very ordinary. I have detailed this in some of my stats threads which I do every 10 games.

So, yes, the team has scored runs. I don't think it is the complete answer. The offense IMO is inconsistent and needs improvement.

I hope that responds to your question.

dougdirt
08-20-2011, 03:26 PM
I just don't think the Reds "runs scored" column tells the whole story.

For one thing, the Reds play in a home run stadium so naturally they should hit a high number of homers and score a lot of runs. Doesn't take a great offense to do so when you play 81 games at GABP. (And the Reds NEED to score more than other teams because their pitchers must throw in a home run stadium.)

The Reds are 4th in the NL in OPS+, which negates any home field advantage.

jojo
08-20-2011, 03:33 PM
I think Francisco might get brutalized in the majors right now.

Guacarock
08-20-2011, 07:47 PM
Can't see bringing them up if Baker isn't going to play them. He left all three rookie callups -- Sappelt, Alonso and Frazier -- on the bench for today's matchup in Pittsburgh. Eventually, Sappelt saw a little action as a pinch runner and defensive sub in LF, but Alonso and Frazier just rode the pines all day.

Who played? Cairo, Lewis, even Renteria as a pinch hitter.

Kc61
08-20-2011, 11:14 PM
Can't see bringing them up if Baker isn't going to play them. He left all three rookie callups -- Sappelt, Alonso and Frazier -- on the bench for today's matchup in Pittsburgh. Eventually, Sappelt saw a little action as a pinch runner and defensive sub in LF, but Alonso and Frazier just rode the pines all day.

Who played? Cairo, Lewis, even Renteria as a pinch hitter.

Well, this series is for all the marbles (3rd place). So it is veteran time.

Meanwhile at AAA Francisco had 3 for 5 with 5 RBI tonight and Mes was on base a bunch of times.

Guacarock
08-21-2011, 12:16 AM
Francisco is looking more like trade bait. A possible destination for him: the Marlins. They've already let it be known they're fishing for a new 3B and they might also have an opening in LF with their young slugger Morrison having fallen into Jack McKeon's doghouse owing to his tweetin' intemperance.

A deal involving Francisco and Morrison would work for both clubs as LF has proven a chronic problem for the Reds.

Better yet if the deal could be expanded to net one of their TOR arms (Johnson, Sanchez, Nolasco). They don't want to relinquish any of the three before moving into their new stadium. But I wonder if the idea of landing Volquez and Wood for one of their guys might tempt them to reconsider. If not, maybe subbing Bailey for Wood would get it done.

We fit well as a potential trading partner with the Marlins, and we're at the point where we can offer them 3-4 guys for the right 2 of theirs. Hopefully, Jocketty will keep a hotline open to Miami this winter. I dunno that we can kill two birds with one stone, and acquire both a LF and TOR arm from them. But even if the haul only consists of Morrison, that's worth pursuing. Wonder who would be the Reds' Twitter king -- him or DatDude!

CrackerJack
08-21-2011, 02:50 AM
Not berating anyone. Just think the Reds could use Francisco and Mes.

And I wouldn't replace any rookies right now, despite some poor early numbers.

I would replace Razor and Lewis, who aren't the future. As I said earlier in the thread.

Dusty wants to win games, it's all about him, not the franchise or developing players in a lost season...whatever it takes to make Dusty's "legacy" and career record better.

No one in the Reds' org right now seems to be on the same page at all, it's pretty ridiculous.

toledodan
08-21-2011, 03:06 AM
Dusty wants to win games, it's all about him, not the franchise or developing players in a lost season...whatever it takes to make Dusty's "legacy" and career record better.

No one in the Reds' org right now seems to be on the same page at all, it's pretty ridiculous.

so true. when i saw fred lewis starting today i didn't bother with the game. there is no reason for him to be starting. 2 days in a row none the less. dusty is about dusty and its getting old. i'm really looking forward to the bengals.:help::barf:

fearofpopvol1
08-21-2011, 04:09 AM
I've said for a very long time that I think Francisco is overrated. The power potential is great, but again, he's just Wily Mo redux with a better arm.

Brutus
08-21-2011, 08:13 AM
Just say 'no' to 'cisco.

RANDY IN INDY
08-21-2011, 08:53 AM
I've said for a very long time that I think Francisco is overrated. The power potential is great, but again, he's just Wily Mo redux with a better arm.

Hope his left arm is better than his right. ;)

Ron Madden
08-22-2011, 01:04 AM
Rick Sweet says here Francisco is playing better than he ever has:

http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20110820/SPORTS07/308200092/Some-Bats-could-called-up-soon?odyssey=nav|head

Kc61
08-22-2011, 09:29 AM
Rick Sweet says here Francisco is playing better than he ever has:

http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20110820/SPORTS07/308200092/Some-Bats-could-called-up-soon?odyssey=nav|head

Actually, Francisco's numbers are better than reflected in the article. His overall BA today is .309 and his OPS is .878.

And the Reds' OPS against RHP is ninth in the NL at .714.

Putting aside Francisco and Mesoraco - do you think the Reds have focused on the fact that their good offensive statistics are largely based on success against LHP? And that against RHP, which they face most of the time, the team's hitting statistics are generally around average for the league?

They must have understood that having three lefty hitters among position players on the whole team (before the Alonso call up) was lopsided. I would think.

kaldaniels
08-22-2011, 09:38 AM
Hey Kc61, do you mind filling in the blank for me...

The Reds' offense is ____________ best in the NL. (ex. 1st, 7th, 14th, whatever you think)

We all think it could be improved, but I just want to know where you truly think it ranks.

Kc61
08-22-2011, 09:52 AM
Hey Kc61, do you mind filling in the blank for me...

The Reds' offense is ____________ best in the NL. (ex. 1st, 7th, 14th, whatever you think)

We all think it could be improved, but I just want to know where you truly think it ranks.

Kal, I haven't calculated. In terms of overall stats, it's pretty good. Probably around fourth or fifth or so.

But I see particular, glaring problems. The offense is too weak against RHP, a major concern. The offense is inconsistent. I won't get into clutch hitting, which may just be a fluke of 2011.

Also, I think the Reds need a particularly good offense to succeed. (They had a better one last season.) This is because the pitchers have an uphill task hurling at GABP. So being fourth or fifth in the NLon offense may not be good enough. Certainly they are not good enough against RHP.

Folks are misunderstanding me. I'm not just upset about the offense, but also the pitching. (I like the defense.)

My overall problem with this team is that many of the issues were foreseeable and the team is so very slow to address needs. This is my real issue. Here we have Joey Votto, a great hitter, on this ballclub for two more years - seize the opportunity and fill the holes! That's my issue, both offensively and pitching-wise.

The Francisco piece is just an example. The team needs hitting against righties. Francisco destroys righties. Rolen is hurt. Why not have him in there right now? Even if he is not the long term answer - I think it would help the Reds now and make the rest of the season more enjoyable.

I like pro-active management. I have a lot of trouble watching the Brewers and Cards aggressively fill needs while the Reds sit still. That is my issue.

Thanks for listening to my rant.

traderumor
08-22-2011, 10:44 AM
Here's a puzzling phenomenon.

Lineup thread: "Looks like a ST lineup" or "man, that's a Boone Sunday Special."

Now, I read this, and folks are clamoring to see the AAA lineup every day? The game just doesn't work this way, folks. Punting the rest of the season, just throwing in young guys to "see what they'll do." Really? Is it fair to "see what they'll do" by inserting the best you have at AAA all in the lineup at the same time? Recipe for disaster and nice way to stunt the development of newbies.

Bring them up, give them some experience, let them compete for jobs, and let them learn. And they may even learn from those who some are proposing as useless right now. Fortunately, the Reds seem to understand that, and I'm sure not going to criticize them for continuing to compete with the best they got while giving some PT to young guys who are knocking on the door to be help in the near term.

oregonred
08-22-2011, 12:25 PM
Hey Kc61, do you mind filling in the blank for me...

The Reds' offense is ____________ best in the NL. (ex. 1st, 7th, 14th, whatever you think)

We all think it could be improved, but I just want to know where you truly think it ranks.

The Reds offense is 4th in the NL at a .737 OPS, BUT it is very unbalanced and Redszone has nailed that issue. The issue is the offense is great against LHP and league average vs. RHP but that is 80% of the AB's and more importantly the central division is very RHP centric...

LHP: .826 OPS, 1st, 898 ABs
RHP: .714 OPS, 9th, 3495 ABs

NL League Average .709 OPS

Note: Milwuakee and St Louis are 1/2 in the NL vs. RHP...

RedLegsToday
08-22-2011, 01:03 PM
RHP: .714 OPS, 9th, 3495 ABs

vs RHP:
Stubbs .231/.300/.354 450PA's, most from the leadoff spot
Renteria .227/.286/.315 199PA's
Janish .232/.277/.291 259 PA's Janteria has spent far too much time in the 2nd spot

That's over 900 pa's of around .620 OPS right there. Find a shortstop that can hit at all and find a righty mashing 4th outfielder and most of the Reds struggles against right handers are gone.

edit: Reds have 3933 PA's against righties, 2887 of those have come from right handed batters

10 of those righthanded batters have at least 196 pa's against righty pitchers, compared to 2 lefties (Votto and Bruce)
5 of those righthanded batters have a .654 or lower OPS with the SS's combining for a sub-.600 OPS
Of those righties, the two best, by far, (Razor and Phillips) could both be gone next year.

Are the Reds too right-handed? Should Yonder (put up a .839 OPS against righties) be playing against RHP, defense be damned?

Also, how is it that the Reds 3 best lefthanded hitters (Votto, Bruce, Alonso) all hit better against lefties than righties?

Kc61
08-22-2011, 01:38 PM
vs RHP:

Also, how is it that the Reds 3 best lefthanded hitters (Votto, Bruce, Alonso) all hit better against lefties than righties?

On the subject of the Reds' shortage of lefty hitting:

GABP has a short right field porch. If anything, that would suggest the need for left handed hitters.

(And some righty hitters too who can use the right field area for dingers.)

The Yankees always seemed to be built with lefty hitters who could make use of the short right field. Yet the Reds have been built with an abundance of right handed hitters.

toledodan
08-22-2011, 02:59 PM
i'm just glad dusty was forced to play frazier at SS.:D i hope he gets a few starts over there.

mth123
08-22-2011, 08:21 PM
Put me down for thinking the Reds offense is a hugely over-rated mirage. This team is largely a function of killing lefties and playing in the NL Central and GABP. In a neutral ballpark, I'd put the reds around 9th or 10th in the NL (at least against RHP which is most of the time).

If you look at the individual players using OPS plus which adjusts for parks and comapares the hitters to the rest of the league the Reds have 3 regular players (over 300 PAs as of last Friday or so) with an OPS plus over 100 (Votto, Bruce, Phillips) a 4th position - Catcher - is also over 100 with Hanigan (thanks to his recent hot streak) and Hernandez both over 100 OPS+. The only other bench bats (over 100 PAs) over 100 are Chris Heisey and Miguel Cairo. The Reds 3 everyday players above league average at the plate is the least among play-off caliber teams. Milwaukee (Weeks, Fielder, Braun, Lucroy, and Hart) St. Louis (Berkman, Holiday, Pujols, Molina and Jay), Philly (Howard, Utley, Rollins, Victorino and Pence), Arizona (Upton, Roberts, Montero, Parra and Young), Atlanta (McCann, Freeman, Jones, Uggla and Bourn) and Colorado (Tulowitzki, Helton, Gonzalez, Smith and Iannetta) each have 5. San Francisco (Sandoval, Ross, Beltran and Schierholtz) and Florida (Stanton, Morrison, Sanchez and Bonafacio) have 4. The other teams include Chicago (6) Wash, LA, HOU, Pitt, SD (3 each) and the Mets with just 2 after dealing off Beltran. St. Louis, SF and the Mets join the Reds with 4 part time guys, Atlanta has 3, Pittsburgh and San Diego two each, Miwaukee, Philly, Colorado, Chicago and Houston each have 1 while Arizona, Washington and LA have no bench players above 100 OPS+.

These numbers, of course, are infuenced by injuries. Guys like Buster Posey, David Wright, Ike Davis, Nyjer Morgan, Skip Schumaker and David Freese are among the regular players over 100 OPS+ who have spent too much time on the DL to reach 300 PAs. Trades have also had an impact. Jonny Gomes was above 100 OPS+ for the Reds while he was here, the Cardinals dealt Rasmus, the Mets dealt Beltran and Houston had Pence, Bourn and Keppinger (Part Time player) all dealt away.

Facts are, many days the Reds are running a team out there with 5 line-up spots below the incredibly low standard of league average. This is largely due to miscalcualtions on the offensive potential of Scott Rolen (OPS+ of 82) and Drew Stubbs (91). Given the long slumps that both Bruce and Phillips tend to go into and the fact that Hanigan just reached 100 on the strength of a hot streak, there were lots of days when Joey Votto was a one man show in the line-up. The Reds simply need to lengthen the tough part of the batting order. One more big hitter would go a long, long way. I wouldn't count on kids or comebacks as a part of the plan to add one (hoping is fine, but counting on it tends to leave the team short just as it did in both the line-up and rotation this year) but, IMO, the kids should be getting as much PT as possible to see what they have and to show them off for any off-season dealings.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-22-2011, 08:31 PM
Put me down for thinking the Reds offense is a hugely over-rated mirage. This team is largely a function of killing lefties and playing in the NL Central and GABP. In a neutral ballpark, I'd put the reds around 9th or 10th in the NL (at least against RHP which is most of the time).

If you look at the individual players using OPS plus which adjusts for parks and comapares the hitters to the rest of the league the Reds have 3 regular players (over 300 PAs as of last Friday or so) with an OPS plus over 100 (Votto, Bruce, Phillips) a 4th position - Catcher - is also over 100 with Hanigan (thanks to his recent hot streak) and Hernandez both over 100 OPS+. The only other bench bats (over 100 PAs) over 100 are Chris Heisey and Miguel Cairo. The Reds 3 everyday players above league average at the plate is the least among play-off caliber teams. Milwaukee (Weeks, Fielder, Braun, Lucroy, and Hart) St. Louis (Berkman, Holiday, Pujols, Molina and Jay), Philly (Howard, Utley, Rollins, Victorino and Pence), Arizona (Upton, Roberts, Montero, Parra and Young), Atlanta (McCann, Freeman, Jones, Uggla and Bourn) and Colorado (Tulowitzki, Helton, Gonzalez, Smith and Iannetta) each have 5. San Francisco (Sandoval, Ross, Beltran and Schierholtz) and Florida (Stanton, Morrison, Sanchez and Bonafacio) have 4. The other teams include Chicago (6) Wash, LA, HOU, Pitt, SD (3 each) and the Mets with just 2 after dealing off Beltran. St. Louis, SF and the Mets join the Reds with 4 part time guys, Atlanta has 3, Pittsburgh and San Diego two each, Miwaukee, Philly, Colorado, Chicago and Houston each have 1 while Arizona, Washington and LA have no bench players above 100 OPS+.

These numbers, of course, are infuenced by injuries (guys like Buster Posey, David Wright, Ike Davis, Nyjer Morgan, Skip Schumaker and David Freese are among the regular players over 100 OPS+ who have spent to much time on the DL to reach 300 PAs. Trades have also had an impact. Jonny Gomes was above 100 OPS+ for the Reds while he was here, the Cardinals dealt Rasmus, the Mets dealt Beltran and Houston had Pence, Bourn and Keppinger (Part Time player) all dealt away.

Facts are, many days the Reds are running a team out there with 5 line-up spots below the incredibly low standard of league average. This is largely due to miscalcualtions on the offensive potential of Scott Rolen (OPS+ of 82) and Drew Stubbs (91). Given the long slumps that both Bruce and Phillips tend to go into and the fact that Hanigan just reached 100 on the strength of a hot streak, there were lots of days when Joey Votto was a one man show in the line-up. The Reds simply need to lengthen the tough part of the batting order. One more big hitter would go a long, long way. I wouldn't count on kids or comebacks as a part of the plan to add one (hoping is fine, but counting on it tends to leave the team short just as it did in both the line-up and rotation this year) but, IMO, the kids should be getting as much PT as possible to see what they have and to show them off for any off-season dealings.

Hall of Fame post!

:beerme:

Kc61
08-22-2011, 09:29 PM
Hall of Fame post!

:beerme:

It is a hall of fame post.

By the way, Francisco has two more hits tonight, is at .312 BA and approaching .900 OPS. He is on fire at AAA. Somehow I think that his left handed bat might help the Reds about now.

RedsManRick
08-22-2011, 10:48 PM
NL Team road performance for the year:

Team BB% K% AVG OBP SLG OPS ISO BABIP wOBA wRC+
Cardinals 8.7% 16.7% .274 .341 .439 .780 .165 .307 .338 115
Mets 8.7% 16.2% .265 .333 .389 .722 .123 .305 .321 102
Cubs 5.8% 19.9% .264 .313 .405 .718 .141 .311 .315 91
Dodgers 8.1% 18.2% .265 .328 .384 .712 .120 .308 .315 98
Reds 9.0% 19.3% .250 .324 .378 .703 .129 .294 .310 90
Phillies 8.0% 16.1% .248 .315 .382 .697 .134 .277 .310 91
Marlins 8.3% 18.8% .244 .312 .391 .703 .146 .281 .309 91
Padres 7.7% 21.1% .258 .320 .370 .690 .112 .318 .309 100
Pirates 8.9% 23.9% .243 .314 .367 .681 .124 .310 .303 88
Diamondbacks 8.5% 21.7% .237 .304 .379 .683 .142 .282 .302 82
Brewers 7.1% 17.9% .243 .302 .379 .681 .136 .276 .300 87
Rockies 8.6% 20.3% .236 .307 .369 .676 .133 .279 .299 77
Braves 7.7% 19.9% .236 .297 .379 .676 .143 .272 .297 85
Giants 7.4% 19.2% .238 .300 .367 .667 .129 .277 .295 82
Nationals 7.9% 22.8% .228 .298 .357 .656 .129 .281 .294 82
Astros 6.1% 19.8% .251 .301 .359 .660 .108 .304 .293 83

The offense surely isn't the best in the NL, but it isn't a "mirage" either. The Votto had to do it alone story is nice, but the good times happened too. Bruce carried the offense for the entire month of May. Other guys have had their times as well. As good as last year? Nope. But not a mirage either.

757690
08-22-2011, 11:24 PM
According to Baseball-Reference team batting splits, under Defensive Positions, here are how many positions each contending team has, that is producing a OPS+ of 99 or higher:

Cardinals - 7
D-backs - 6
Reds - 5
Braves - 5
Phillies - 5
Brewers - 4
Giants - 1

mth123
08-23-2011, 05:59 AM
NL Team road performance for the year:

Team BB% K% AVG OBP SLG OPS ISO BABIP wOBA wRC+
Cardinals 8.7% 16.7% .274 .341 .439 .780 .165 .307 .338 115
Mets 8.7% 16.2% .265 .333 .389 .722 .123 .305 .321 102
Cubs 5.8% 19.9% .264 .313 .405 .718 .141 .311 .315 91
Dodgers 8.1% 18.2% .265 .328 .384 .712 .120 .308 .315 98
Reds 9.0% 19.3% .250 .324 .378 .703 .129 .294 .310 90
Phillies 8.0% 16.1% .248 .315 .382 .697 .134 .277 .310 91
Marlins 8.3% 18.8% .244 .312 .391 .703 .146 .281 .309 91
Padres 7.7% 21.1% .258 .320 .370 .690 .112 .318 .309 100
Pirates 8.9% 23.9% .243 .314 .367 .681 .124 .310 .303 88
Diamondbacks 8.5% 21.7% .237 .304 .379 .683 .142 .282 .302 82
Brewers 7.1% 17.9% .243 .302 .379 .681 .136 .276 .300 87
Rockies 8.6% 20.3% .236 .307 .369 .676 .133 .279 .299 77
Braves 7.7% 19.9% .236 .297 .379 .676 .143 .272 .297 85
Giants 7.4% 19.2% .238 .300 .367 .667 .129 .277 .295 82
Nationals 7.9% 22.8% .228 .298 .357 .656 .129 .281 .294 82
Astros 6.1% 19.8% .251 .301 .359 .660 .108 .304 .293 83

The offense surely isn't the best in the NL, but it isn't a "mirage" either. The Votto had to do it alone story is nice, but the good times happened too. Bruce carried the offense for the entire month of May. Other guys have had their times as well. As good as last year? Nope. But not a mirage either.

The "mirage" is largely a function of the home park and the road parks that they play in most of the time. Stats that aren't park adjusted do little in shedding any light on the problems with this team's offense. Looking at wRC+ (which is park adjusted), the Reds are 8th in the league. Looking deeper, they are 1st versus LHP and 8th vs RHP. wOBA, which this list seems to be sorted by, is not park adjusted and would seem to obscure the huge advantage of GABP and the NL Central in general. Sorting by wRC+ would put the Reds 8th and a far cry from the "2nd in runs scored' claim that we repeatedly hear when discussing the team's offense. So, yes, the idea that this team is some kind of offensive powerhouse, which seems to be the point of all the "2nd in runs scored" posts I keep reading, is a complete "mirage."

Lets look at a typical Reds line-up that they went into the season with.

Stubbs CF (OPS+ 91)
Phillips 2B (OPS+ 109)
Votto 1B (OPS+ 163)
Rolen 3B (OPS+ 82)
Bruce RF (OPS+ 128)
Gomes LF (OPS+ 100)
Hanigan C (OPS+ 100)
Janish SS (OPS+ 47)
Pitcher

Counting the pitcher, that is 4 spots below 100, two right at 100 and 1 guy barely above 100. Add that the top of the order and the clean-up spot are both below average offensive performers and you have a very thin line-up. When Bruce is slumping, spots 4 through 1 (7 guys in a row) are very easy to pitch to. Phillips, at 109, isn't really anything to get excited about or worry an opposing pitcher. The OPS+ standard of 100 itself is fairly low for a regular player on a contending team given that pitchers and weak hitting utility IF all play into the overall average. The team's offense is somewhat better when Hernandez, Cairo and Heisey play (Heisey's OPS+ of 104 isn't really all that much of an upgrade over Gomes and doesn't really solve the bigger offensive issue), but they are all part time players, whose numbers, IMO, would be worse if they were in there every day.

This team needs to solve its problem at the top of the order and get somebody in the middle who can provide some production for these claims of being anything above a pedestrian offense to have any validity. Ideally, it would add two every day players who can provide that production, but a decent platoon in LF and the 5 hole would help a lot as well, provided the team's Manager could figure out how to use it. I'm not holding my breath. The plan seems to be to keep running these flawed guys or unproven kids out there and hoping. "Second in the league in runs scored" is a complete mirage.

lollipopcurve
08-23-2011, 06:59 AM
The "mirage" is largely a function of the home park and the road parks that they play in most of the time.

Good point.

puca
08-23-2011, 08:37 AM
It is a hall of fame post.

By the way, Francisco has two more hits tonight, is at .312 BA and approaching .900 OPS. He is on fire at AAA. Somehow I think that his left handed bat might help the Reds about now.

The Reds already have a better left-handed bat rotting on the bench right now because he was judged not to be good enough defensively to play regularly anywhere his bat would be an upgrade.

Francisco is EE without the range at 3b. Last time we saw Francisco it it looked to me that neither his bat nor his glove were of ML caliber. Now granted the same size was extremely small, and I'm no scout, but he had fairly significant holes in his swing and his glove looked substantially sub-standard at 3b.

lollipopcurve
08-23-2011, 09:04 AM
Francisco is EE without the range at 3b. Last time we saw Francisco it it looked to me that neither his bat nor his glove were of ML caliber. Now granted the same size was extremely small, and I'm no scout, but he had fairly significant holes in his swing and his glove looked substantially sub-standard at 3b.

Better glove than EdE because he his arm is more accurate. EdE just could not make the throw consistently.

Francisco is a very high ceiling bat. If he learns to take ball 4, he could be a monster in the NL Central.

PuffyPig
08-23-2011, 09:10 AM
Better glove than EdE because he his arm is more accurate. EdE just could not make the throw consistently.

Francisco is a very high ceiling bat. If he learns to take ball 4, he could be a monster in the NL Central.

His problem isn't so much taking ball 4, it's taking ball 1.

Kc61
08-23-2011, 09:11 AM
The Reds already have a better left-handed bat rotting on the bench right now because he was judged not to be good enough defensively to play regularly anywhere his bat would be an upgrade.

Francisco is EE without the range at 3b. Last time we saw Francisco it it looked to me that neither his bat nor his glove were of ML caliber. Now granted the same size was extremely small, and I'm no scout, but he had fairly significant holes in his swing and his glove looked substantially sub-standard at 3b.

I find it amazing that folks are so negative about bringing a potential impact bat up for six weeks. They would rather watch Dave Sappelt who has far more limited upside. Remarkable to me the negative attitude toward a 24 year old guy who mashes RHP.

JF has had three stints in the majors. He did great his first time, pretty good his second. This year, he played very few games and had a slow start. Why should that dictate his future?

JF's current stats against RHP right now are .346/.364/.592/.956. He's not good enough to platoon for six weeks at third base with those numbers?

And by the way with runners on base his OPS is .960.
With runners in scoring position his OPS is 1.089.
Those numbers are against all kinds of pitching.
Not worth six weeks against RHP?

And I don't have his fielding stats available right now, but it seems from reading the box scores that he is making fewer errors.

The EE comparisons ignore the basic reality -- EE had a throwing problem. JF has a gun and an accurate one at that.

It's very simple. The Reds need lefty hitting against RHP. This guy can supply it. Yet, fans don't even want to try him out.

Have to go now, but let's say I disagree.

lollipopcurve
08-23-2011, 09:14 AM
JF's current stats against RHP right now are .346/.364/.592/.956. He's not good enough to platoon for six weeks at third base with those numbers?

And by the way with runners on base his OPS is .960.
With runners in scoring position his OPS is 1.089.
Those numbers are against all kinds of pitching.
Not worth six weeks against RHP?

Couldn't agree more. Then again, minds have been made up against Francisco since he was in A ball.

puca
08-23-2011, 10:02 AM
nm

dougdirt
08-23-2011, 10:07 AM
His problem isn't so much taking ball 4, it's taking ball 1.

No, it really is taking ball four. The guy has actually been working counts in AAA for about two years now. But, it seems that whenever he gets to a 3 ball count he does everything he can to not walk. He takes pitches 3 inches outside before he has a 3 ball count, but will then swing at pitches 8 inches outside when he is about to take a walk. His plate discipline is a lot better than his numbers would indicate.

lollipopcurve
08-23-2011, 10:27 AM
No, it really is taking ball four. The guy has actually been working counts in AAA for about two years now. But, it seems that whenever he gets to a 3 ball count he does everything he can to not walk. He takes pitches 3 inches outside before he has a 3 ball count, but will then swing at pitches 8 inches outside when he is about to take a walk. His plate discipline is a lot better than his numbers would indicate.

I am not surprised to hear this. In the majors, he's always seemed to have an OK eye, generally speaking. Not to say he won't chase, because he will -- but he won't chase all the time. So, it seems a matter of discipline and being consistent. What worries me is that Baker seems to have a hankering for an "RBI guy." And I think he might put that on Francisco, who we know he likes. That kind of "tutelege" would work against Francisco's development, IMO.

IslandRed
08-23-2011, 10:41 AM
My position on Francisco:

1. The Reds need to figure out who's going to be part of their team next year. The fact that the lineup is currently weak against RHP is true, and also irrelevant. We're out of the race.

2. Which leads to the next question -- is Francisco part of the discussion about next year's team? I'm not sure. To me, until he fixes that can't-take-ball-four problem Doug mentioned, he's going to be an easy mark at the major-league level unless he magically develops a Vladimir Guerrero-like ability to hit crappy pitches. And he shouldn't be part of the major-league mix until he shows in AAA that he's fixed it. As for defense, opinions vary and I'm not going to pretend I know the truth of the matter.

3. And in any case, he's probably behind Todd Frazier in the 1B/3B/LF backup pecking order, and that's without considering the potential Alonso experiment and the fact that, for 2012 at least, Rolen will play when he's healthy.

So I'm thinking Francisco is probably headed for another team this winter. We've talked over and over about how it's time to clear out some positional logjams and figure out who to hold and who to fold. I'm thinking it's at least 5-1 in favor of "fold" where JF is concerned.

klw
08-23-2011, 12:24 PM
The Reds have promoted Mudcats catcher James Skelton to Triple-A Louisville. Skelton was batting .236 in 49 games for the Mudcats this season with two home runs and 16 RBIs. This is Skelton's first trip to AAA.
Muddie posted the above in the minor league forum. Is this a sign we are getting some interesting news today?

Bored blatant speculation on my part.

osuceltic
08-23-2011, 01:21 PM
Muddie posted the above in the minor league forum. Is this a sign we are getting some interesting news today?

Bored blatant speculation on my part.

I'm cautiously optimisitic about Mesoraco, but the reality is his AAA numbers look a lot like Ramon Hernandez's big-league numbers. I think if anyone sees him as the answer in the middle of the order, they may be expecting too much (although, in hindsight, Ramon would have been our best cleanup option this season).

Having said that, I'm hoping they bring Mes up when the rosters expand. Same with Francisco -- in fact, with Cisco, the sooner the better.

lollipopcurve
08-23-2011, 01:28 PM
Muddie posted the above in the minor league forum. Is this a sign we are getting some interesting news today?

Bored blatant speculation on my part.

They'll move Mes up soon enough. Doubt it's before Sept 1, but we'll see.

TRF
08-23-2011, 02:07 PM
Right now there is a guy that plays LF. He'll be 27 next year. His numbers this year: .258 .340 .537 with 25 HR's in 326 AB's

I still have no idea why Wladimir Balentien is not the starting LF for the Reds.

klw
08-23-2011, 04:04 PM
LouisvilleBats Louisville Bats
by johnfayman
@SeanOMcNally @johnfayman Corky Miller was placed on the DL today with left thumb strain, reason for Skelton promotion
26 minutes ago
Nothing to see here. You may go about your business.

mth123
08-23-2011, 07:57 PM
His problem isn't so much taking ball 4, it's taking ball 1.

Not really. He works deep into counts but won't take the walk.