PDA

View Full Version : Hernandez placed on waivers by Reds



klw
08-24-2011, 03:46 PM
Remember this does not mean he has been released.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/08/reds-place-ramon-hernandez-on-waivers.html

The Reds have placed catcher Ramon Hernandez on waivers, according to Danny Knobler of CBSSports.com (via Twitter). Tim Dierkes listed Hernandez as one of his August trade candidates at the top of the month.

In late July, there was talk that the Reds were listening on offers for Hernandez, but GM Walt Jocketty said that the veteran would be staying put just prior to the deadline. In 286 plate appearances for the Reds this year, the 35-year-old is hitting .292/.350/.465 with eleven homeruns.

LoganBuck
08-24-2011, 04:12 PM
Sell, Sell, Sell

RedsManRick
08-24-2011, 04:16 PM
Given his Type A status, he has some real value.

OesterPoster
08-24-2011, 04:18 PM
So, any chance someone takes a stab at him before he reaches the Giants or Braves?

Guacarock
08-24-2011, 04:30 PM
So, any chance someone takes a stab at him before he reaches the Giants or Braves?

Diamondbacks might place a claim simply to block him from reaching the Giants.

oneupper
08-24-2011, 04:40 PM
Diamondbacks might place a claim simply to block him from reaching the Giants.

And what would stop the REDS from letting them just take him?
They're not getting the draft pick, because they're not going to offer arbitration.
(or am I missing something?)

Guacarock
08-24-2011, 04:44 PM
Diamondbacks might place a claim simply to block him from reaching the Giants.

Actually, I'm wrong on this score. With the Diamondbacks currently being ahead of the Giants in the NL West standings, the Diamondbacks can't place a blocking claim on Hernandez. Only a team with a worse records than the Giants could do so, say, the Rockies.

Sorry about the mixup. I remembered that preference fell to the weaker team, but somehow forgot that the Diamondbacks -- even after their recent skid --are still atop the Giants.

Blimpie
08-24-2011, 04:46 PM
If you believe some of the other RZ threads (namely John Buck and his case of the yips), maybe the Marlins will be in the market for a new catcher.

Homer Bailey
08-24-2011, 04:49 PM
And what would stop the REDS from letting them just take him?
They're not getting the draft pick, because they're not going to offer arbitration.
(or am I missing something?)

The Reds will almost surely offer him arbitration. And he's likely to decline it. And as @jluckhaupt said on twitter:


I doubt Hernandez would accept arb from #Reds. There will be a starting gig for available for a catcher that hit .295/.357/.445 last 2 yrs.

osuceltic
08-24-2011, 04:49 PM
And what would stop the REDS from letting them just take him?
They're not getting the draft pick, because they're not going to offer arbitration.
(or am I missing something?)

The fact that they would be losing a good player on a bargain contract for nothing? The fact that it would weaken the club for the rest of the season for no reason? If the Reds just let him go on a waiver claim, I'd say I'm DEFINITELY missing something.

And I'm not at all convinced they won't offer arbitration. I would. If he accepts, you have a good player for another year and buy at least another half-season of prep time for Mes. That's not a bad thing.

lollipopcurve
08-24-2011, 04:55 PM
If he accepts, you have a good player for another year and buy at least another half-season of prep time for Mes.

Mesoraco's ready. You don't hold him back any longer. Hernandez has played very well, but he's a bad knee away from losing all value. Time to cash him in -- either now or after the season (provided they're confident he won't accept arbitration).

Guacarock
08-24-2011, 05:04 PM
Mesoraco's ready. You don't hold him back any longer. Hernandez has played very well, but he's a bad knee away from losing all value. Time to cash him in -- either now or after the season (provided they're confident he won't accept arbitration).

I'm with you on this score. Hernandez has played extremely well for the Reds. But bringing him back another year would be pressing our luck. He is no spring chicken and he is, in fact, showing some signs of slowing down, particularly on defense but also offense as the season goes on.

If we didn't have Mesoraco waiting in the wings, we might need to take the risk and negotiate another one-year extension with Hernandez. But Mesoraco is ready, and looks quite capable, so there's no point in bringing Hernandez back in the fold for 2012, especially not with Hanigan remaining on a favorable contract to split time with Mesoraco.

oneupper
08-24-2011, 05:05 PM
I'm sorry, I'm lost.
Why wouldn't Ramon accept arbitration?
He's making $3 million this year.
He could shoot for $4-5 million in arb. after his fine year.
What would he expect to make as a FA?
Is a long term deal an option at his age?

PuffyPig
08-24-2011, 05:07 PM
The Reds will almost surely offer him arbitration. And he's likely to decline it. And as @jluckhaupt said on twitter:

I disagree very strongly on both counts.


No one would give up their first pick to sign Hernandez.

He'd have more value as a B type, as then I would likely offer arbitration.

mdccclxix
08-24-2011, 05:10 PM
If Rhodes could get a 2 year deal worth 4 mil per, I'd think Ramon could get 2 and 10 with a 3rd year option.

lollipopcurve
08-24-2011, 05:12 PM
Ramon is a good enough hitter that he has value as a DH and backup catcher. 2 years at 5.5 probably beats anything he could make in arbitration.

Benihana
08-24-2011, 05:33 PM
I disagree very strongly on both counts.


No one would give up their first pick to sign Hernandez.

He'd have more value as a B type, as then I would likely offer arbitration.

We've been over this before. Half of the teams in baseball wouldn't have to give up their first pick to sign him (they're protected).

reds44
08-24-2011, 05:34 PM
I don't see Ramon accepting arbitration, he's going to look for (and get) a multi year deal somewhere.

The Reds have to get something with some value back for me to trade him.

Look at what the Yankees have been trotting out at catcher this year.

osuceltic
08-24-2011, 05:48 PM
Mesoraco's ready. You don't hold him back any longer. Hernandez has played very well, but he's a bad knee away from losing all value. Time to cash him in -- either now or after the season (provided they're confident he won't accept arbitration).

They're all a bad knee away from losing value. That's sports.

Mes may or may not be ready. His AAA numbers this year are pretty darn close to Hernandez's big-league numbers. If he made the jump to the majors and did exactly what he's doing in AAA -- a tall order -- he would be giving us what Hernandez is giving us. And that isn't even considering the most important piece of the puzzle for a catcher -- how he plays defensively.

I'm not saying the Reds should break the bank for Hernandez or even arguing that they shouldn't trade him. I'm just saying you absolutely do not give away an asset like that as oneupper earlier suggested. If you can get something of value for him now, trade him (and a marginal prospect is not something of value). If not, hold on to him and offer him arbitration. If he declines, you get a pick. If he accepts, you get him on a one-year, tradeable deal. That also gives you the option of bringing up Mes to share time with Hernandez and learn from him -- while dealing Hanigan for help elsewhere.

Bottom line, the Reds need more players like Ramon Hernandez, not less.

PuffyPig
08-24-2011, 06:14 PM
If Rhodes could get a 2 year deal worth 4 mil per, I'd think Ramon could get 2 and 10 with a 3rd year option.

Rhodes got only 1 year at $4M, plus it didn't cost anyone a draft pick.

If Rhodes had been offered arbitration, we would have had to pay big bucks for him this year when he accepted arbitration as no one would have given up their first for him.

Apples and oranges.

Captain Hook
08-24-2011, 07:28 PM
If Rhodes could get a 2 year deal worth 4 mil per, I'd think Ramon could get 2 and 10 with a 3rd year option.

I'm no expert but I agree.There are plenty of teams that Ramon would be a clear upgrade at the C position.He also swings it good enough to DH some and also can play first base if needed.

Slyder
08-24-2011, 08:28 PM
I'm no expert but I agree.There are plenty of teams that Ramon would be a clear upgrade at the C position.He also swings it good enough to DH some and also can play first base if needed.

And could play third too if needed in an extra innings games :laugh:.

mth123
08-24-2011, 09:15 PM
1. Saving $500K and opening a spot for Mesoraco in and of itself is a reason to deal him no matter the return, but they should get a middling prospect.

2. I think Ramon would get $5 to $6 Million in arb and the Reds can't afford it. They have Mesoraco to play the role on the cheap, have about $10 to $12 Million in playflex if they let him walk to try to add an established starter and a middle of the order bat who can play an open position. There is simply no way the Reds can pay Ramon short of dealing off major pieces that would cripple the team (Votto) or have no ready replacement (Phillips). Some rich team could afford to claim him and offer arb and scoop up the picks in the unlikely event he declines. That may give him a tad more trade value, but not all that much IMO.

3. Ramon is a part time player these days (286 PAs in late August isn't exacly a full time catcher) and the last time he played "full time" he put up an OPS of .714 two years in a row. I don't see any team giving him a multi year deal at a full time gig's cost. BTW, he's below average defensively at this point and was never anything better than average at any point in his career.

lollipopcurve
08-24-2011, 09:26 PM
Nobody did last year when he was a year younger and coming off of a similar season.

He never hit the open market. Reds signed him during their exclusive negotiating window.

mth123
08-24-2011, 09:36 PM
He never hit the open market. Reds signed him during their exclusive negotiating window.

You are correct. I forgot about that one.

Kc61
08-24-2011, 10:54 PM
To give the Reds some credit - which I don't do that often - I think the decision to keep Razor this long was quite intentional and probably planned all year. Reds, I believe, never intended to interrupt Mesoraco's minor league season. They always planned, IMO, to let Mes learn his trade at AAA all season.

Now September looms. The final trade deadline is near, and the minor league season is ending.

I do believe the Reds' plan for Mes' season is accomplished and Razor will now be moved. I don't see anyway the Reds offer him arbitration. I think his run as a Red is over.

So I'm guessing that Ramon goes to the highest bidder in the next few days.

Should the Red decide next year that Mes still isn't ready, I'd guess Hanigan will have a different veteran catching partner, not Razor.

Ron Madden
08-25-2011, 05:10 AM
Has Hernandez had a good year? Yes.

Could he start for some other teams? Yes.

Would I offer him arbitration? Hell No!

Although some other teams may covet Hernandez none of them would be willing to sign him to a 5MM deal and lose two draft picks in the process.

IMHO, It would be a Bad bet to offer Ramon arbitration, if he accepts your on the hook for about 5MM for a aging catcher with bad Knees and declining defensive skills.

I would have traded him to San Francisco back in July. I'd trade him now to anyone, for any return, or non tender him in the off season rather than gamble on him turning down a sure huge pay raise that comes with arbitration.

redsmetz
08-25-2011, 06:22 AM
1. Saving $500K and opening a spot for Mesoraco in and of itself is a reason to deal him no matter the return, but they should get a middling prospect.

2. I think Ramon would get $5 to $6 Million in arb and the Reds can't afford it. They have Mesoraco to play the role on the cheap, have about $10 to $12 Million in playflex if they let him walk to try to add an established starter and a middle of the order bat who can play an open position. There is simply no way the Reds can pay Ramon short of dealing off major pieces that would cripple the team (Votto) or have no ready replacement (Phillips). Some rich team could afford to claim him and offer arb and scoop up the picks in the unlikely event he declines. That may give him a tad more trade value, but not all that much IMO.

3. Ramon is a part time player these days (286 PAs in late August isn't exacly a full time catcher) and the last time he played "full time" he put up an OPS of .714 two years in a row. I don't see any team giving him a multi year deal at a full time gig's cost. BTW, he's below average defensively at this point and was never anything better than average at any point in his career.

I think the mistake is believing that Hernandez would be treated in arbitration is if he's a full-time catcher. I don't think he makes what you believe he will, although I don't know how to isolate active catchers to compare. And I do believe there are clubs who will be willing to give him a 2 year deal for the exact role he's filling now. It may well not be in the shared duties he's doing now, but there are clubs who could benefit from his experience, his present catching abilities and match him up with a younger catching prospect. Likewise, his accepting arbitration does not preclude him and the club negotiating a contract. But I suspect your expected numbers are too high.

toledodan
08-25-2011, 12:43 PM
Rhodes got only 1 year at $4M, plus it didn't cost anyone a draft pick.

If Rhodes had been offered arbitration, we would have had to pay big bucks for him this year when he accepted arbitration as no one would have given up their first for him.

Apples and oranges.



i believe rhodes did get a two year deal.

Homer Bailey
08-25-2011, 01:21 PM
i believe rhodes did get a two year deal.

One year deal with an option that obviously did not vest.

757690
08-25-2011, 02:31 PM
If Hernamdez accepted arbitration, could the Reds trade him after that was settled? Not sure on the rules on this point, but if they could, I don't see any reason not to offer him arbitration. Many team's would gladly trade for him under a one year, market price contract.

PuffyPig
08-25-2011, 02:59 PM
If Hernamdez accepted arbitration, could the Reds trade him after that was settled? Not sure on the rules on this point, but if they could, I don't see any reason not to offer him arbitration. Many team's would gladly trade for him under a one year, market price contract.

IIRC, you can't trade him until sometime after the season starts.

But don't confuse arbitration with market price.

He would likely get more in arbitration than the market would pay him.

REDREAD
08-25-2011, 03:02 PM
Honestly.. if Walt wants to bring Ramon back next year, I think the Reds will reach an agreement without arbitration.

If the Reds don't want to bring Ramon back (as many predict).. why offer him arbitration? I have said this many times.. the compensation picks you get for a FA are not worth offering arb to a player that you don't want to return. Only offer arb to players that you want to come back . At least 95% of the time, that is sound reasoning.. The Braves got burned by offering Maddux arb.. Other clubs have been burned too. Arbitration often gives the players more money than they'd get in the free market. Most compensation draft picks do not pan out, and if you've got money to sign a comp pick, you can get comparable talent later in the draft or internationally if you are willing to spend the same amount of money.

Guacarock
08-26-2011, 02:09 PM
Reds reportedly open to trading Hernandez.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/08/heyman-on-cubs-valverde-bell-hernandez.html#disqus_thread

Heyman also says he expects someone to make a claim on Hernandez.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/jon_heyman/08/26/cubs.general.manager/index.html?eref=writers

757690
08-26-2011, 02:59 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/08/ramon-hernandez-claimed-on-waivers.html

Hernandez claimed off waivers but pulled back by Reds, according to this report.

medford
08-26-2011, 03:05 PM
I wonder who claimed him, and if they'd be willing to give up something in return, or are blocking someone else from claiming him and have no intentions of offering anything of value.

PuffyPig
08-26-2011, 03:13 PM
I wonder who claimed him, and if they'd be willing to give up something in return, or are blocking someone else from claiming him and have no intentions of offering anything of value.

He was pulled back, so he won't be traded now.

crazybob60
08-26-2011, 03:20 PM
Well....there goes that shot.

Guacarock
08-26-2011, 04:00 PM
Anyone care to speculate on which team made the claim? Someone blocking the Giants? One of the Reds' antagonists? Or just a cheap, cheesy trading partner?

I(heart)Freel
08-26-2011, 04:05 PM
Arizona for the block. That's my guess.

HotCorner
08-26-2011, 04:15 PM
Arizona for the block. That's my guess.

Arizona's claim would have come after SF due to their current records.

bucksfan2
08-26-2011, 04:34 PM
What is the value of type A FA who declines arbitration? Ramon would have cost roughly 500K for the rest of the season. Would that have been worth the sup. picks?

Brutus
08-26-2011, 04:48 PM
What is the value of type A FA who declines arbitration? Ramon would have cost roughly 500K for the rest of the season. Would that have been worth the sup. picks?

I believe I saw someone post here once an article that found the value of Type-A picks to be worth roughly $5 million.

Kc61
08-26-2011, 04:57 PM
So, presumably:

Somebody selected Razor off waivers, not really to obtain him but to block others.

That team didn't offer much for Razor.

Reds decided it wasn't worth trading him for so little, and kept Razor.

OesterPoster
08-26-2011, 05:03 PM
I wouldn't be shocked if it was STL.

PuffyPig
08-26-2011, 05:09 PM
So, presumably:

Somebody selected Razor off waivers, not really to obtain him but to block others.

That team didn't offer much for Razor.

Reds decided it wasn't worth trading him for so little, and kept Razor.


May well have offered nothing. We may never know.

Mario-Rijo
08-26-2011, 05:23 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/08/ramon-hernandez-claimed-on-waivers.html

Hernandez claimed off waivers but pulled back by Reds, according to this report.

They have absolutely lost their daggone minds. He's gonna be 36 years old in May next season. There is no way he doesn't accept arbitration if offered. So perhaps they will simply non-tender him after the season. No doubt whoever claimed it was to block, had to be.

LoganBuck
08-26-2011, 05:31 PM
They should have dealt him in July.

I am sorry, but this front office gets an F for this season. A massive failure.

Walt's contract expires at the end of the season. Dusty at the end of next season. Who wants another helping?

Redhook
08-26-2011, 05:34 PM
They should have dealt him in July.

I am sorry, but this front office gets an F for this season. A massive failure.

Walt's contract expires at the end of the season. Dusty at the end of next season. Who wants another helping?

Yep.

Patrick Bateman
08-26-2011, 05:43 PM
Well it depends on what the offer was at the deadline.
If the offers were kind of filler type prospects, it probably wasn't a bad idea to hold onto him as at the time there was still some chance of making the playoffs and gave more time for Mes to develop in AAA as there is no need to rush his defensive development to the majors. Considering the general lack of prospects being thrown around, I don't hate the fact that Ramon would be kept in those types of circumstances. Obviously at this point it's not a seller's market, so once the deadline passed we should have been keeping expectations in check.

dougdirt
08-26-2011, 06:18 PM
Well it depends on what the offer was at the deadline.
If the offers were kind of filler type prospects, it probably wasn't a bad idea to hold onto him as at the time there was still some chance of making the playoffs and gave more time for Mes to develop in AAA as there is no need to rush his defensive development to the majors. Considering the general lack of prospects being thrown around, I don't hate the fact that Ramon would be kept in those types of circumstances. Obviously at this point it's not a seller's market, so once the deadline passed we should have been keeping expectations in check.

It would have taken an absolute miracle for the Reds to win it even at the end of July. He should have been traded because they aren't offering him arbitration and they knew it. They also really should have known they weren't winning the division. Even if the Brewers didn't go all '27 Yankees in August, the Reds chances were minuscule of coming back. Just a poor plan by the Reds front office.

OnBaseMachine
08-26-2011, 07:20 PM
They should have dealt him in July.

I am sorry, but this front office gets an F for this season. A massive failure.

Walt's contract expires at the end of the season. Dusty at the end of next season. Who wants another helping?

Agreed.

Tom Servo
08-26-2011, 07:25 PM
I think people here are overreacting, to be honest.

Larkin Fan
08-26-2011, 07:50 PM
I think people here are overreacting, to be honest.

What's new?

Patrick Bateman
08-26-2011, 07:52 PM
It would have taken an absolute miracle for the Reds to win it even at the end of July. He should have been traded because they aren't offering him arbitration and they knew it. They also really should have known they weren't winning the division. Even if the Brewers didn't go all '27 Yankees in August, the Reds chances were minuscule of coming back. Just a poor plan by the Reds front office.

Selling for the best offer is not always the best idea in all circumstances.

If you show the willingness to part your free agents to be for scraps then you will never get anything decent.

I happen to be of the opinion of keeping Mes downstairs until the end of the season so he can continue his development.

Therefore if the best offers for Hernandez are going to have minimal impact on the future, then I don't think it's insane to keep him and not throw the white flag out, or at least keep some consistency in the position for the sake of the developing pitchers.

All I'm saying is that some context should be considered in the matter before we go on another Walt is a moron tirade.

dougdirt
08-26-2011, 08:25 PM
I happen to be of the opinion of keeping Mes downstairs until the end of the season so he can continue his development.


Right now, there are less than two weeks left in the season.

mth123
08-26-2011, 08:31 PM
I think Mes on the major league roster getting as much time as possible with the pitching staff is more valuable than anything that the Reds could have possibly hoped for with Ramon. Ramon is in the way at this point. The Reds should have taken some cost savings, put it toward next season's budget and let Mes have time to get some of the adjustments to the majors out of the way.

Now he'll probably still be up in September, but his time behind the plate working with the staff will be limited by Ramon on the roster. The Reds can't afford Ramon in 2012 and can't risk that he'll accept arb a la David Weathers. There is absolutely no reason to keep him around no matter the return IMO.

Patrick Bateman
08-26-2011, 09:10 PM
Right now, there are less than two weeks left in the season.

Wow, Doug why are you trying to pick a fight with me?

I was CLEARLY evaluating the decision to not trade him at the JULY deadline.
There were more than 2 weeks left in the season at that point. Obviously if you could trade Hernandez right now for anything of value it would be a good idea, however, considering the fact that he was claimed, who knows if that team was even interested in his services.

At the original deadline, all I'm saying is that if the only offers were that of mild prospects, then I would have considered keeping Hernandez with the intent of developing out pitchers this season and not rushing Mes. There are clearly two sides to a transaction of likely minor implications, sorry if you only see one of them. If Brandon belt was being offered, or whatever people wanted for Hernandez I'm 100% sure he was sent packing.

But that simply is not the market for a 2 month rental of a good part time catcher.

dougdirt
08-26-2011, 09:13 PM
Wow, Doug why are you trying to pick a fight with me?

I was CLEARLY evaluating the decision to not trade him at the JULY deadline.
There were more than 2 weeks left in the season at that point. Obviously if you could trade Hernandez right now for anything of value it would be a good idea, however, considering the fact that he was claimed, who knows if that team was even interested in his services.

At the original deadline, all I'm saying is that if the only offers were that of mild prospects, then I would have considered keeping Hernandez with the intent of developing out pitchers this season and not rushing Mes. There are clearly two sides to a transaction of likely minor implications, sorry if you only see one of them. If Brandon belt was being offered, or whatever people wanted for Hernandez I'm 100% sure he was sent packing.

But that simply is not the market for a 2 month rental of a good part time catcher.
Sensitive much?

I didn't read it the way you meant it.

At this point, the Reds should have just taken the cash savings by not having to pay him, let him go to whatever team claimed him and brought up Mesoraco.

757690
08-26-2011, 09:43 PM
If the Reds don't offer Ramon arbitration this off-season, this is a puzzling move. Why place him on waivers, if you are going to pull him back if he gets claimed?

I think this suggests that they plan on offering him arbitration. I'm guessing they hope he would get through to the Giants and had a deal worked out, but someone before them put in a claim, so they pulled him back.

I really don't see the problem with them offering arbitration. I seriously doubt he would accept, since he would want to go someplace where he can get more playing time at the very least. I also think he will easily get a two year deal if he hits the open market. Even if he can't catch much in a year, he still can be a nice bat off the bench.

757690
08-26-2011, 10:18 PM
According to Hal, pulling him back means a trade still could happen.


On Friday morning, the Reds withdrew the waivers, meaning somebody probably tried to claim him, probably the San Francisco Giants. The Reds and Giants still could make a trade involving Hernandez.

THEY HAVE 48 hours after withdrawing waivers to make a trade and, surprise, surprise, a San Francisco scout was at Friday’s game.

Anyone know if this is correct?

kaldaniels
08-26-2011, 10:53 PM
I'm wondering it if should be written in stone that the Reds will not offer arbitration. Much like I wonder if it should be written in stone that should the Reds offer arbitration, Hernandez will surely accept.

We shall see I suppose.

Brutus
08-26-2011, 10:56 PM
According to Hal, pulling him back means a trade still could happen.



Anyone know if this is correct?

Edit:

Technically speaking, at the end of the 48-hour claim period, once a club is notified of a claim, they have 48 business hours to withdrawal a claim. However, the rules state that a club must not witndrawal a claim for it to be rescinded. In fact, a claim is withdrawn automatically by the commissioner's office, so the club doesn't need to act if it's withdrawing a waiver request.

So what Hal says about 48 hours is true, but it means the Reds likely did NOT withdrawl the waiver request, as there would be no reason to do so. They'd continue to work on a trade for a 48-hour period and the claim would simply withdrawl itself at the end of the period...

Here are the relevant portions of the Major League Rules on waivers


(2) Notice to Requesting Club. At the conclusion of the claiming period, the Commissioner or the Commissioner's designee shall notify the requesting Club of any claims.

(3) Withdrawal of Request. In the event of one or more claims, unless otherwise prohibited by these Rules, the Commissioner or the Commissioner’s designee shall enter a withdrawal automatically, on behalf of the requesting Club, at the conclusion of the withdrawal period, unless the requesting Club has notified the Commissioner or the Commissioner’s designee, in writing or by approved electronic means, before the expiration of the withdrawal period that the requesting Club does not wish the request to be withdrawn. In the case of a withdrawal, the claim is null and void. ..(end of relevant portion)

So as you can see here, a withdrawal means a claim is null and void. By this language, I have to assume a withdrawal, would nullify the ability to trade a player. So my hunch is that indeed, the Reds have no reason to withdrawal a claim if they are still talking over a trade with the claiming party.

My take: the Reds did not withdrawal their waiver request. There's no reason to do so. They could continue working out a trade and if it's not done in 48 hours, the request would be withdrawn automatically.

Patrick Bateman
08-27-2011, 12:30 AM
Sensitive much?

I didn't read it the way you meant it.

At this point, the Reds should have just taken the cash savings by not having to pay him, let him go to whatever team claimed him and brought up Mesoraco.

Sensitive?
You have made posts to me 3 times where you have twisted my words, it's very difficult to have a discussion when one side is not really reading what the other is saying.

Slyder
08-27-2011, 12:43 AM
I wouldn't be shocked if it was STL.

They would be "classy" enough to pull a stunt like that. We should put Bronson out there and dump him on St Louis if they claim him.

dougdirt
08-27-2011, 12:50 AM
Sensitive?
You have made posts to me 3 times where you have twisted my words, it's very difficult to have a discussion when one side is not really reading what the other is saying.

You made the comment that you are in favor of keeping Mesoraco down all year to continue his development. I responded with "there are two weeks left in the season". Not sure what I wasn't reading there. Regardless of whether you were talking about the event in July or today, your statement still works for both situations.

Patrick Bateman
08-27-2011, 03:53 AM
You made the comment that you are in favor of keeping Mesoraco down all year to continue his development. I responded with "there are two weeks left in the season". Not sure what I wasn't reading there. Regardless of whether you were talking about the event in July or today, your statement still works for both situations.

My overall opinion was discussion the opinion of whether "it was a poor plan by management to keep Hernandez" at the deadline.

Ron Madden
08-27-2011, 04:57 AM
I think Mes on the major league roster getting as much time as possible with the pitching staff is more valuable than anything that the Reds could have possibly hoped for with Ramon. Ramon is in the way at this point. The Reds should have taken some cost savings, put it toward next season's budget and let Mes have time to get some of the adjustments to the majors out of the way.

Now he'll probably still be up in September, but his time behind the plate working with the staff will be limited by Ramon on the roster. The Reds can't afford Ramon in 2012 and can't risk that he'll accept arb a la David Weathers. There is absolutely no reason to keep him around no matter the return IMO.

I agree wholeheartedly. we should have traded him to the Giants back in July.

Ron Madden
08-27-2011, 05:18 AM
If the Reds don't offer Ramon arbitration this off-season, this is a puzzling move. Why place him on waivers, if you are going to pull him back if he gets claimed?

I think this suggests that they plan on offering him arbitration. I'm guessing they hope he would get through to the Giants and had a deal worked out, but someone before them put in a claim, so they pulled him back.

I really don't see the problem with them offering arbitration. I seriously doubt he would accept, since he would want to go someplace where he can get more playing time at the very least. I also think he will easily get a two year deal if he hits the open market. Even if he can't catch much in a year, he still can be a nice bat off the bench.

It would be foolish to offer arbitration to Hernandez and he would be even more foolish for turning it down. Ramon could be awarded a 4-5 MM deal for 2012 in arbitration. That would be far more than any club will offer him as a FA and a HUGE waste of resources on the part of the Reds.

lollipopcurve
08-27-2011, 08:24 AM
Well, if it's true the Giants claimed him and the Reds are now trying to work a deal with them, it seems to me Walt would have played this well. The Giants are likely more intent on making a deal now than they were a month ago.

Whatever works out, I'm confident Walt is not going to part with catching surplus for peanuts or "whatever he can get."

BTW, Surkamp has been called up to start today.

wlf WV
08-27-2011, 09:40 AM
The best scenario is the Reds have a mutual agreement with Hernandez about turning down arbitration. I assume Jocketty felt he got low balled at the deadline,so he didn't deal. Also they tried to pass him through waivers to a contender(or someone he had a deal with) and he was claimed by another. Culmination of a tough year.

Blitz Dorsey
08-27-2011, 01:18 PM
The only surprising thing here is that the Reds didn't trade him before July 31 when it was obvious they should have. Now, perhaps San Fran didn't offer much, but that would have been insane on their part considering Whiteside is horrible (and they're without Posey for the rest of the year).

This is one of those deals that was an obvious move for both sides to make a month ago. Amazing how dense some of these GMs can be. And spare me the "Brian Sabean is a good GM because he won a World Series" stuff. Anyone who breaks the bank for Barry Zito is not a good GM. Most other teams couldn't give a horrible contract like that to someone and still recover. But San Fran is basically a big-market team. They're not the Yankees or Red Sox, but they always have plenty of cash to throw around. Sabean would be terrible if he had a budget like the Reds.

PuffyPig
08-27-2011, 03:24 PM
The best scenario is the Reds have a mutual agreement with Hernandez about turning down arbitration.

So, Hernandez will turn down arbitration and the Reds will....do what for him.

If Hernandez is aType A and turns down arbitration, it's going to be rough for him. Not many (if anyone) wouild give up a first (or second for a non-contender) to sign Hernandez to a 1-2 year contract.

Hernandez' right to accept arbitraion is a huge bullet to give up, considering his age.

If would be great if he has promised that, I'm just not sure he would have.

757690
08-27-2011, 03:46 PM
So, Hernandez will turn down arbitration and the Reds will....do what for him.

If Hernandez is aType A and turns down arbitration, it's going to be rough for him. Not many (if anyone) wouild give up a first (or second for a non-contender) to sign Hernandez to a 1-2 year contract.

Hernandez' right to accept arbitraion is a huge bullet to give up, considering his age.

If would be great if he has promised that, I'm just not sure he would have.

There are less than 10 catchers in the major who are as productive as Ramon, and the fact that he's now been this productive two years in a row makes him even more attractive. How many good catchers will be available this off-season?

I would bet that a few team's would gladly give up top draft picks to improve their catching.

LoganBuck
08-27-2011, 04:00 PM
There are less than 10 catchers in the major who are as productive as Ramon, and the fact that he's now been this productive two years in a row makes him even more attractive. How many good catchers will be available this off-season?

I would bet that a few team's would gladly give up top draft picks to improve their catching.

Two links on the problem with Type A free agent status for a guy like Ramon Hernandez.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/sky_andrecheck/11/19/free.agents/index.html

http://www.businessinsider.com/some-free-agents-lose-money-because-they-are-good-at-baseball-2010-11

_Sir_Charles_
08-27-2011, 04:02 PM
Has anybody considered that the Reds want to keep Ramon? Hanigan's contract is VERY team friendly. Grandal should be ready in a couple of years at the most. Maybe they offer Ramon arbitration, if he accepts, we keep him and deal Ryan and bring up Mesoraco. The following year after Ramon leaves, Grandal (or a cheap 1 year backup) is playing behind Mesoraco. If Ramon declines arbitration, we let him walk and take the picks. And we've still got the team friendly contract of Hanigan to back up Mesoraco until Grandal is ready.

I'm not a fan of this strategy, but I firmly believe this is what we'll see happen.

LoganBuck
08-27-2011, 04:11 PM
Has anybody considered that the Reds want to keep Ramon? Hanigan's contract is VERY team friendly. Grandal should be ready in a couple of years at the most. Maybe they offer Ramon arbitration, if he accepts, we keep him and deal Ryan and bring up Mesoraco. The following year after Ramon leaves, Grandal (or a cheap 1 year backup) is playing behind Mesoraco. If Ramon declines arbitration, we let him walk and take the picks. And we've still got the team friendly contract of Hanigan to back up Mesoraco until Grandal is ready.

I'm not a fan of this strategy, but I firmly believe this is what we'll see happen.
It does satisfy the catcher that can speak Spanish requirement. :rolleyes:

EDIT: My phone put the rolleyes emoticon in the wrong spot. I wasn't aiming that at SirCharles, rather at the mindset, that my post represents.

_Sir_Charles_
08-27-2011, 04:17 PM
:rolleyes:

It does satisfy the catcher that can speak Spanish requirement. rolleyes:

The more I think about it, the more sure I am that this is what they'll do. Sure, it's a monetary gamble if Ramon accepts arbitration, but not a prohibitive one. They'll recoup some of the money on dealing Ryan Hanigan. Regardless, whichever one goes (Hanny or Razor), Mesoraco will be given the starting gig and the other will be the backup. And whichever backup we go with...they won't be needed longer than a year or two due to Grandal.

Scrap Irony
08-27-2011, 04:21 PM
the following 8 teams could use a guy like Hernandez as either a primary catcher or platoon catcher/DH/backup 1B:

Seattle
Washington
Los Angeles
New York (NL)
Chicago
Pittsburgh
Oakland
Chicago (AL)

Oh, and none of them would lose a 1st round pick if they signed him:


Compensatory picks that one team gives another via this method are the highest available pick that team has, with the exception of picks in the top half of the first round.[26] These picks are protected from being used as compensation. If a team that picks in the top half of the first draft signs a Type A free agent, they would give up their second round pick.

dougdirt
08-27-2011, 04:22 PM
And whichever backup we go with...they won't be needed longer than a year or two due to Grandal.

I think that is a pretty big assumption. If Mesoraco becomes the catcher people believe he will, I don't see the Reds doing anything but trading Grandal. This won't be an Alonso situation.... everyone needs catching and its a very premium position defensively. You aren't going to bury him on the roster as a back up when you could flip him for a strong haul.

Scrap Irony
08-27-2011, 04:59 PM
An argument could be made for keeping Grandal and playing each of the young catchers around half the time. It keeps both fresh.

I could see a case for dealing Grandal (or Mesoraco, for that matter), but it's not a matter of course.

On that same note, the idea that Jocketty and company are looking at Hernandez as a backup to Mesoraco isn't all that far-fetched, IMO. He's getting older and taking more than half the season off in order to extend his career might be appealing, especially in a place (and for a GM) he likes. I could see a backroom deal between Jocketty and Hernandez, with Ramon willing to come back as a backup/mentor to Mesoraco in 2012. It would likely cost $4 million or so, and, while I wouldn't put the money in that particular spot, I could see the reasoning behind it.

mth123
08-27-2011, 05:14 PM
An argument could be made for keeping Grandal and playing each of the young catchers around half the time. It keeps both fresh.

I could see a case for dealing Grandal (or Mesoraco, for that matter), but it's not a matter of course.

On that same note, the idea that Jocketty and company are looking at Hernandez as a backup to Mesoraco isn't all that far-fetched, IMO. He's getting older and taking more than half the season off in order to extend his career might be appealing, especially in a place (and for a GM) he likes. I could see a backroom deal between Jocketty and Hernandez, with Ramon willing to come back as a backup/mentor to Mesoraco in 2012. It would likely cost $4 million or so, and, while I wouldn't put the money in that particular spot, I could see the reasoning behind it.

Too much money and the back up catcher needs to be a good defender and a good handler of pitchers. Neither of those describe Ramon and fit Hanigan to a tee. Ramon did a better job here than I thought he would. Lets not push our luck. We have an elite defender who gets on base on the cheap for a couple years (Hanigan) and one of the top ten prospects in the game (Mesoraco) with another top prospect to deal (Grandal). There is even another good defender who gets on base coming up in two or three years when its time for Hanigan to go (Barnhardt). No need to tie up millions in Ramon for a decline that is bound to happen sooner or later. Let somebody else pay for it and if he has another good year, good for them. No regrets.

_Sir_Charles_
08-27-2011, 07:27 PM
I think that is a pretty big assumption. If Mesoraco becomes the catcher people believe he will, I don't see the Reds doing anything but trading Grandal. This won't be an Alonso situation.... everyone needs catching and its a very premium position defensively. You aren't going to bury him on the roster as a back up when you could flip him for a strong haul.

That's very true. But we're talking about a backup catcher...not a starter. There are several possible backups we could use in 2 years. Heck Tucker Barnhart, Kevin Coddington and some of the other lower minors catcher could fill that void. And yes, I do think that if both Devin & Yasmani pan out like we hope, Grandal gets dealt. But the scenario I'm talking about is still a couple of years away anyway.

_Sir_Charles_
08-27-2011, 07:40 PM
Too much money and the back up catcher needs to be a good defender and a good handler of pitchers. Neither of those describe Ramon and fit Hanigan to a tee. Ramon did a better job here than I thought he would. Lets not push our luck. We have an elite defender who gets on base on the cheap for a couple years (Hanigan) and one of the top ten prospects in the game (Mesoraco) with another top prospect to deal (Grandal). There is even another good defender who gets on base coming up in two or three years when its time for Hanigan to go (Barnhardt). No need to tie up millions in Ramon for a decline that is bound to happen sooner or later. Let somebody else pay for it and if he has another good year, good for them. No regrets.

In a perfect world, sure. But first off, we don't know what kind of offers Ramon's been drawing. We'd hate to see him leave and get nothing in return at all by not offering him arbitration. He WILL be wanted by other teams without a doubt. And with the season he's had, he'll certainly be a type-A.

So the way I look at it, Jocketty has 3 options.

1) Letting Ramon go and getting nothing in return whatsoever by not offering arbitration. Going with Mes & Ryan for 2012.

2) Offering arbitration and having Ramon decline thus making him a type A free agent. If he signs with another team (and he will) we'll get compensation picks for him. Much better than getting nothing in return. And then going with Mes & Ryan for 2012. If for some odd reason Ramon doesn't get signed after declining...at worst, we've reverted to option #1 basically.

3) Offering arbitration and having Ramon accept. The amount he'd get won't be as high as some of the numbers I've seen tossed around here I think simply due to the fact that he's a part time player. Regardless, this makes Ryan Hanigan expendable and EXTREMELY tradeable due to his very friendly contract. We should be able to get some decent prospects or even a MLB player for Ryan. He's been around long enough for GM's to know how valuable he is and that contract is drool-worthy. This means going with Mes & Ramon for 2012. We'd take on some additional salary due to Ramon's arbitration bump, we'd lose some salary due to Ryan being traded too which should alleviate the Hernandez raise somewhat.

It's a small gamble financially, but for one season it wouldn't be that cumbersome. Considering the fact that to not take that gamble, we get zilch in return...it's a risk thats worth taking.

In regards to Hernandez's defense, I agree that it's not as good as Ryan's. But IMO he handles the staff fine and his much more potent bat offsets the defense discrepancy. Also, since he'd be a part-time player he's a better pinch hitter than Ryan AND he can fill in at 1st if need be too. They're different players to be sure, but of nearly equal value IMO.

Kc61
08-27-2011, 08:04 PM
I wonder if Reds are keeping Razor to alternate with Hanigan again next year. With Mes back at AAA and Grandal back at AA.

The Reds are so very cautious in their approach to these things. Particularly at a position like catcher.

It would seem that Mes should be a Red next year. But that may be too dramatic for this organization.

Just wondering.

Mario-Rijo
08-27-2011, 08:12 PM
Don't know if it was noted though don't believe it matters a whole lot. I figure since this is a waivers discussion to some extent I'd throw it in here.

Players who have cleared waivers:


Bronson Arroyo, Reds - His peripheral stats haven't changed much, but Arroyo has a 5.31 ERA as of August 15th. $15MM of his $35MM contract is deferred through 2021 without interest. The deferrals are voided if he's traded, however. At any rate, expect Arroyo to stay put.

MLB TR Link (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/08/players-who-cleared-waivers.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+MlbTradeRumors+%28MLB+Trade+R umors%29)

Will M
08-27-2011, 09:08 PM
I wonder if Reds are keeping Razor to alternate with Hanigan again next year. With Mes back at AAA and Grandal back at AA.

The Reds are so very cautious in their approach to these things. Particularly at a position like catcher.

It would seem that Mes should be a Red next year. But that may be too dramatic for this organization.

Just wondering.

I was thinking this too. The Reds are very conservative. Bob, Walt & Dusty have all been spotted with "I like Ike" buttons.

mth123
08-27-2011, 09:08 PM
In a perfect world, sure. But first off, we don't know what kind of offers Ramon's been drawing. We'd hate to see him leave and get nothing in return at all by not offering him arbitration. He WILL be wanted by other teams without a doubt. And with the season he's had, he'll certainly be a type-A.

So the way I look at it, Jocketty has 3 options.

1) Letting Ramon go and getting nothing in return whatsoever by not offering arbitration. Going with Mes & Ryan for 2012.

2) Offering arbitration and having Ramon decline thus making him a type A free agent. If he signs with another team (and he will) we'll get compensation picks for him. Much better than getting nothing in return. And then going with Mes & Ryan for 2012. If for some odd reason Ramon doesn't get signed after declining...at worst, we've reverted to option #1 basically.

3) Offering arbitration and having Ramon accept. The amount he'd get won't be as high as some of the numbers I've seen tossed around here I think simply due to the fact that he's a part time player. Regardless, this makes Ryan Hanigan expendable and EXTREMELY tradeable due to his very friendly contract. We should be able to get some decent prospects or even a MLB player for Ryan. He's been around long enough for GM's to know how valuable he is and that contract is drool-worthy. This means going with Mes & Ramon for 2012. We'd take on some additional salary due to Ramon's arbitration bump, we'd lose some salary due to Ryan being traded too which should alleviate the Hernandez raise somewhat.

It's a small gamble financially, but for one season it wouldn't be that cumbersome. Considering the fact that to not take that gamble, we get zilch in return...it's a risk thats worth taking.

In regards to Hernandez's defense, I agree that it's not as good as Ryan's. But IMO he handles the staff fine and his much more potent bat offsets the defense discrepancy. Also, since he'd be a part-time player he's a better pinch hitter than Ryan AND he can fill in at 1st if need be too. They're different players to be sure, but of nearly equal value IMO.

First. Hernandez is not a good defensive catcher. The staff is worse when he's out there.

Second, as for his bat, he's a GABP creation. His home OPS is .963 while his OPS away from GABP is .668. Away from GABP he's a weak hitting, part-time catcher with declining defensive skills in his late 30s.

Nobody is going to give up their first or second round draft choice to sign him to any deal that he'd probably want and the arb award that keeps him in his hitters paradise will be too attractive. I still think that award will be in excess of $5 Million that the Reds need to put toward the pitching staff and the clean-up spot. Bottom of the order bats this team has in spades. If you open it up to guys who can't field very well, they can get them whenever they want to.

_Sir_Charles_
08-27-2011, 11:18 PM
First. Hernandez is not a good defensive catcher. The staff is worse when he's out there.

Well, I didn't say he was a good defensive catcher. But I don't include the way a catcher handles a pitching staff to be part of his defense. And I think he handles the pitchers quite well. We apparently disagree. No biggie.


Second, as for his bat, he's a GABP creation. His home OPS is .963 while his OPS away from GABP is .668. Away from GABP he's a weak hitting, part-time catcher with declining defensive skills in his late 30s.

His home/away splits are more exaggerated this season, I'll grant you that. But last season, they were much closer and still quite good. As for this year, it's been odd. He's hit more HR's on the road, more 2B's on the road, but he's hit for a much better average and walked more at home. That doesn't scream "GABP creation" to me. Maybe "more comfortable at home", but it's not like he's getting cheap HR's to pad his stats at home. He's getting more singles at home. GABP is not known to give up more singles than other places, so I'm not seeing a correlation there. Just a fluke occurrence I'm thinking.


Nobody is going to give up their first or second round draft choice to sign him to any deal that he'd probably want and the arb award that keeps him in his hitters paradise will be too attractive. I still think that award will be in excess of $5 Million that the Reds need to put toward the pitching staff and the clean-up spot. Bottom of the order bats this team has in spades. If you open it up to guys who can't field very well, they can get them whenever they want to.

Well, ideally we'd deal him for something worthwhile. Or we'd offer arbitration and he'd decline. But I do think he'll get some offers. More than one. He's not a gold glover back there for sure, but he's also not a hack. And his bat the past 2 years is WELL above average for catchers...full time OR part time. But I'm also thinking his arbitration total will be substantially lower than 5 million. So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

PuffyPig
08-28-2011, 12:19 AM
Well, I didn't say he was a good defensive catcher. But I don't include the way a catcher handles a pitching staff to be part of his defense.

That's like saying that a SS's range isn't consisered a part of his defensive package, and just look at fielding %.

A catcher\s abilty to handle a pitching staff is likely 80% of his defensive value.

oneupper
08-28-2011, 10:29 AM
Part of Hernandez' value is that he speaks Spanish. When 2011 started 2 of the 5 starters on the team were Latin american (Cueto Volquez). Cueto speaks little English from what I've seen. Ditto for Chapman. Volquez, so-so.

It may not be the main factor concerning decisions surrounding Hernandez, but it is part of the equation. You may notice there are a lot of Latin catchers in the majors.

_Sir_Charles_
08-28-2011, 01:14 PM
That's like saying that a SS's range isn't consisered a part of his defensive package, and just look at fielding %.

A catcher\s abilty to handle a pitching staff is likely 80% of his defensive value.

Ummm...okay. When I think defensive skills of a catcher, I'm thinking of his ability to catch the ball, to throw the ball, his arm strength, the speed of his release and pop-up, his lateral movement for blocking balls in the dirt, and the small things like framing pitches and such.

His ability to calm down pitchers, calling pitches when the managers don't, spot problems with pitchers' deliveries, realizing when they're overthrowing, tiring, lacking confidence, etc....these are the things I think of when talking about how he handles a pitching staff. And I think of them as completely separate. Maybe I'm alone in that. Who knows.

nate
08-28-2011, 01:34 PM
Part of Hernandez' value is that he speaks Spanish. When 2011 started 2 of the 5 starters on the team were Latin american (Cueto Volquez). Cueto speaks little English from what I've seen. Ditto for Chapman. Volquez, so-so.

It may not be the main factor concerning decisions surrounding Hernandez, but it is part of the equation. You may notice there are a lot of Latin catchers in the majors.

It's an advantage but I'd put a fraction of the money saved by not re-signing him into Rosetta Stone/Berlitz/some other way to learn Spanish for Hanigan and Mesoraco.

757690
08-28-2011, 02:25 PM
It's an advantage but I'd put a fraction of the money saved by not re-signing him into Rosetta Stone/Berlitz/some other way to learn Spanish for Hanigan and Mesoraco.

I've been telling that joke for years, and it's a good one. High five!

But I think a much bigger issue is the cultural comfort level. I know I feel much more comfortable discussing work with a native English speaker than I do with someone with an accent it who just learned it.

dougdirt
08-28-2011, 02:40 PM
Part of Hernandez' value is that he speaks Spanish. When 2011 started 2 of the 5 starters on the team were Latin american (Cueto Volquez). Cueto speaks little English from what I've seen. Ditto for Chapman. Volquez, so-so.

It may not be the main factor concerning decisions surrounding Hernandez, but it is part of the equation. You may notice there are a lot of Latin catchers in the majors.

Devin Mesoraco has been catching Volquez in AAA with no issues at all. When Cueto was on rehab, Mesoraco caught 3 of his 4 starts. Cueto had a 1.42 ERA in those three games with 13 strikesouts/4 walks in 12.7 innings.

Far too much is made about the language barrier that doesn't really exist on the Reds. I know that you aren't making it a big deal. Just wanted to point that out.

nate
08-28-2011, 03:00 PM
Devin Mesoraco has been catching Volquez in AAA with no issues at all. When Cueto was on rehab, Mesoraco caught 3 of his 4 starts. Cueto had a 1.42 ERA in those three games with 13 strikesouts/4 walks in 12.7 innings.

Far too much is made about the language barrier that doesn't really exist on the Reds. I know that you aren't making it a big deal. Just wanted to point that out.

Yeah. I don't think it's a big deal. I do believe in the club trying to do as much as possible to make the communication easier though.

I(heart)Freel
08-29-2011, 11:25 AM
Ramon banged up apparently.

Any chance DevMes gets the call up before Thursday???

REDREAD
08-29-2011, 11:46 AM
At this point, the Reds should have just taken the cash savings by not having to pay him, let him go to whatever team claimed him and brought up Mesoraco.

And then the next time Walt waives a veteran in August, teams will expect the "cheap" Reds to give them that vet for nothing. Also, it will be more difficult to sign veteran FAs to fill in the roster once the Reds get a repuation for just dumping them in August. I'm sure Ramon would not be thrilled if he got sent to a team that didn't want him, but was just trying to hurt the Giants.

Saving 500k or so on Hernandez is a minimal benefit. No need to nickle and dime the payroll. Some people on this thread are failing to look at the big picture.
It's not going to kill Mes to wait until Sept callups. It's not going to kill the Reds to pay the rest of Ramon's salary.

Redsfan320
08-29-2011, 12:38 PM
Didn't Hanny learn Spanish last off-season anyway? Seems I saw something about that.

320

oneupper
08-29-2011, 01:58 PM
Devin Mesoraco has been catching Volquez in AAA with no issues at all. When Cueto was on rehab, Mesoraco caught 3 of his 4 starts. Cueto had a 1.42 ERA in those three games with 13 strikesouts/4 walks in 12.7 innings.

Far too much is made about the language barrier that doesn't really exist on the Reds. I know that you aren't making it a big deal. Just wanted to point that out.

Guys like Hernandez are good to have around, was more the point. Even if they're not playing they can help with the game plans and they help make the clubhouse more cohesive. A team with young Latin players can use a Ramon Hernandez.

Cairo would be another such player (and Cabrera last year).