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redsof72
08-25-2011, 01:05 PM
Billy Hamilton's last four FIRST INNINGS of games:

Sunday: Singled to start game, stole second on first pitch, stole third on second pitch.
Monday: Singled to start game, stole second on first pitch, stole third on second pitch.
Tuesday: Singled to start game, stole second on first pitch.
Wednesday: Singled to start game, stole second on first pitch.

He also stole a base in the first inning Saturday, just not on the first pitch. So that's seven stolen bases in the first inning alone over five games (six of them on the first pitch available).

Some of these, of course, are on pitchouts and every possible defensive effort to prevent it from happening again. Yet it did.

You would have to go awhile to see anything like this again.

izzy's dad
08-25-2011, 01:19 PM
Never seen or heard of anything like this on any level of baseball.

fearofpopvol1
08-25-2011, 01:55 PM
Is Hamilton faster than Henderson?

medford
08-25-2011, 02:00 PM
Wake me up when he steals 2nd on the 1st pitch, 3rd on the 2nd pitch and home on the 3rd pitch.

redsof72
08-25-2011, 02:01 PM
Oh, yes, Billy is much faster. Of course, Henderson is over 50 years old. Sorry, that's an old Ty Cobb line.

Hard to really say, you might be splitting hairs. Only a few people have ever watched Henderson and Hamilton enough to say, and their memories might be fuzzy. Was Henderson actually the fastest player? Faster than Deion? Or was he the best at knowing how to translate that speed into the art of base stealing? Billy has blazing speed, but the difference between Billy and even Theo Bowe is just a blink of the eye, but Billy has something that others don't.

lollipopcurve
08-25-2011, 02:12 PM
72, how do you like his bat at this point?

redsof72
08-25-2011, 02:48 PM
Improved dramatically from the left side, which is now his stronger side. Hit .233 overall in the first half, now at .307 in the second half.

In the last three games, 10 hits, none were infield hits, and that is a big step forward.

Hard player to evaluate through stats because he does so much. He has forced more errors than any player in baseball. He leads the league in runs scored. When the team needs a run, he usually can find a way to get it. Delino feels he is the league MVP, which says a lot considering he is a guy who struggled to get to .260 with no power. But when you watch his impact, day in and day out, he is the straw that stirs the drink on a team that is now 20 games over .500. Certainly in the second half, a strong case could be made that he has been the league MVP. In a stat driven world, he would never get that award. But if you ask the managers which player is truly the "most valuable," in the second half, he would probably be the guy.

medford
08-25-2011, 02:56 PM
Who votes for MVP in the minors? For some reason, I thought it was the managers thru the league, rather than the media which I'll assume could be hit/miss in many of the markets Dayton plays in.

lollipopcurve
08-25-2011, 03:17 PM
In the last three games, 10 hits, none were infield hits, and that is a big step forward.

That's kind of what I was wondering about -- thanks for nailing it.

Is this a guy you think they'll try to move quickly?

mace
08-25-2011, 03:20 PM
Improved dramatically from the left side, which is now his stronger side. Hit .233 overall in the first half, now at .307 in the second half.

In the last three games, 10 hits, none were infield hits, and that is a big step forward.

Hard player to evaluate through stats because he does so much. He has forced more errors than any player in baseball. He leads the league in runs scored. When the team needs a run, he usually can find a way to get it. Delino feels he is the league MVP, which says a lot considering he is a guy who struggled to get to .260 with no power. But when you watch his impact, day in and day out, he is the straw that stirs the drink on a team that is now 20 games over .500. Certainly in the second half, a strong case could be made that he has been the league MVP. In a stat driven world, he would never get that award. But if you ask the managers which player is truly the "most valuable," in the second half, he would probably be the guy.

Good stuff. I'd just noticed that his splits show a hitter decidedly better from the left side, which was surprising. It also suggests that he's still heading upwards on that curve, having only recently begun to concentrate on swinging that way.

Question, 72: While it's nice to see that he's getting legitimate hits, is he a good drag bunter? (Although, he probably wouldn't need to actually drag it. Just drop it out there.)

One of your observations, in particular, got my attention: the fact that he induces so many errors. When you look at it that way, it's a little easier to tolerate the errors that Hamilton himself commits (which I'm sure will decrease as he matures).

Lastly, I'm somewhat surprised that Hamilton is receiving so much credit as opposed to Torreyes. While Slidin' Billy has had a superb second half, that began when Torreyes arrived; and Torreyes, of course, has put up terrific numbers himself, while ostensibly playing excellent middle-infield defense. In general, Dayton's surge can be dated almost to the day that Torreyes got there.

texasdave
08-25-2011, 03:49 PM
In general, Dayton's surge can be dated almost to the day that Torreyes got there.

In other words, since El Raton started swinging El Baton???

mace
08-25-2011, 04:08 PM
In other words, since El Raton started swinging El Baton???

That's one el of a post.

nate1213
08-25-2011, 04:20 PM
That's kind of what I was wondering about -- thanks for nailing it.

Is this a guy you think they'll try to move quickly?

Before the season started, Bavasi said that Hamilton will be one player they will try and move quickly.

<http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110119&content_id=16459324&vkey=news_cin&c_id=cin>>

redsof72
08-25-2011, 04:28 PM
Torreyes deserves a ton of credit, make no mistake about it. But Hamilton's impact on the game is so strong. For example, part of the reason Ronald is hitting .356 is that he is getting a lot of fastballs with Billy on base. And Hamilton brings so much energy to the dugout that it rubs off on everyone else and they play with more energy too. And the pressure he puts on the opposition, just with his presence, in terms of inducing balks and wild pick-off throws. When Billy is playing well, and right now he is playing well, his impact on the game is enormous.

Number of errors forced is not a measurable stat but I would guess there have been 20 times this season when an infielder, knowing Hamilton was running, rushed either the pick-up or the throw and got an error, and on Hamilton's batting average it says 0 for 1, but with anyone else, there never would have been an error.

As far as defense, I still say the same things I have said all year. Will make some plays that no one else makes. But I am not sold on his hands yet. He has a ways to go there. To assume he is a major league shortstop at this point is too much of an assumption. Too early to say. Could wind up at second or in center, or could improve and stay at short. Time will tell.

As far as fast-tracking him, no. One level at a time. Look at how long it took him this year to catch up to this level. He is an athlete, not a great hitter. It is coming, slowly.

For anyone, me, you, the scouts, or anyone else, to try to predict at this point what kind of player Billy will be when all is said and done is just a stab in the dark. There is no track record for this profile. He could end up stalling at any level of the minors you want to pick and become Gookie Dawkins, or he could end up showing the same improvement from year to year as he has this season, and then you have a very special player. All I know is what I see right now, and I see a player that every team in the league fears to the point of complete fluster.

dougdirt
08-25-2011, 04:29 PM
Before the season started, Bavasi said that Hamilton will be one player they will try and move quickly.

<http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110119&content_id=16459324&vkey=news_cin&c_id=cin>>

I think it will be a mistake if they try that move and I think we saw why in the first half. He is just so raw, even still.

redsof72
08-25-2011, 04:34 PM
Couple things I left out: he is not a good bunter right now. Once in a while, he gets a good bunt down.

MVP vote: Strictly managers vote. Billy won't get it because of the numbers. His value is way too intangible for an MVP vote. And half the managers in the league only saw him for three games this season. Probably will go to Arbello of South Bend.

lollipopcurve
08-25-2011, 04:39 PM
Great stuff, 72. That's as good a scouting report as we can get on the guy. Thanks very much.

redsof72
08-25-2011, 04:41 PM
For those who saw him a couple of times this season and were not impressed, you are right, he can look like anything but a prospect if you see him on the right day. But the full body of work...see the first post in this thread.

Scrap Irony
08-25-2011, 04:47 PM
Great report, 72.

Makes me think he might be something special in a few years.

He and Torreyes are my absolute favorite guys right now because they do so many things that no one else does anymore. Fun to see.

dougdirt
08-25-2011, 05:05 PM
For those who saw him a couple of times this season and were not impressed, you are right, he can look like anything but a prospect if you see him on the right day. But the full body of work...see the first post in this thread.

Agreed. But this is also why I think it would be a bad idea to try to rush him up through the system.

_Sir_Charles_
08-26-2011, 11:07 PM
Oh, yes, Billy is much faster. Of course, Henderson is over 50 years old. Sorry, that's an old Ty Cobb line.

Hard to really say, you might be splitting hairs. Only a few people have ever watched Henderson and Hamilton enough to say, and their memories might be fuzzy. Was Henderson actually the fastest player? Faster than Deion? Or was he the best at knowing how to translate that speed into the art of base stealing? Billy has blazing speed, but the difference between Billy and even Theo Bowe is just a blink of the eye, but Billy has something that others don't.

Ricky was fast...no doubt. But he wasn't the base stealer he was because of his speed. His jumps and reads off the pitchers were phenomenal. THAT'S what differentiates Henderson from the others. Now if Ricky had Hamilton's speed....Oh, Dear GOD!