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View Full Version : Votto for Zimmerman, would you do it?



Redlegs
08-27-2011, 09:57 AM
If the Reds come to the conclusion they will not be able to sign Votto past his current contract, they should trade him.

Let me be clear (apologies to Pres. Obama), I would love to see Joey Votto play 1B for the Reds for a long, long time. But I cannot see trading Alonso, only to lose Votto a couple years later. With that in mind, would you trade Joey Votto for Nats 3B Ryan Zimmerman if you knew Joey was gone after 2013?

PuffyPig
08-27-2011, 10:11 AM
No, becuase his contract ends the same time as Votto's.

Redlegs
08-27-2011, 10:24 AM
No, becuase his contract ends the same time as Votto's.Would you do it if you could lock Zimmerman up for a 5 year extention?

PuffyPig
08-27-2011, 12:06 PM
Would you do it if you could lock Zimmerman up for a 5 year extention?


Yes, if I was happy with the cost.

7 years of Zimmerman > 2 years of Votto.

Plus Zimmerman plays a position that is harder to fill, Votto plays a position that (along with LF) can generally be filled cheaply with reasonable production).

RBA
08-27-2011, 12:16 PM
I think it would be dependent on both teams making long term deals with each player. I don't see Votto happy as a Nat.

HokieRed
08-27-2011, 12:17 PM
I don't think the Nats would make the deal. Zimmerman's really the face of the franchise.

Scrap Irony
08-27-2011, 12:32 PM
I'd do it, with reservations. Zimmerman has a history of being fragile, but his positional importance (and the emergence/presence of Alonso) makes the deal a win. He'd also be an ideal cleanup hitter to put between Bruce and Alonso in a suddenly balanced lineup:

Phillips 2B
Sappelt/ Heisey LF
Alonso 1B
Zimmerman 3B
Bruce RF
Stubbs CF
Mesoraco/ Hanigan C
Cozart SS

That's a cheap, productive lineup that's also nicely balanced, with power and obp throughout. The bench, too, would be outstanding, with Rolen, Frazier, Heisey, Cairo, and Hanigan providing punch (though there's no southpaw off the pine to PH).

They'd just need to find a TOR pitcher or two and a bullpen overhaul to be right there with Philadelphia and Atlanta. (A FA signing of CJ Wilson and a deal-- Soto, Grandal, and Bailey?-- for Shields would be nice to see. Then, the failed starters can either be dealt or moved to the pen in lieu of other, ineffective guys.)

Redlegs
08-27-2011, 12:37 PM
I hear a lot of talk of trading Alonso, but no talk of trading Votto. Moving Yonder would be a huge mistake in the long term.

Scrap Irony
08-27-2011, 12:45 PM
As compared to trading MVP Votto?

Really?

kaldaniels
08-27-2011, 12:51 PM
How about a rephrase of the question with anyone free to chime in.

If Ryan Zimmerman were on the team today instead of Joey Votto and if the lineup was constructed optimally, would the Reds be a better team?

Slyder
08-27-2011, 01:02 PM
How about a rephrase of the question with anyone free to chime in.

If Ryan Zimmerman were on the team today instead of Joey Votto and if the lineup was constructed optimally, would the Reds be a better team?

I don't know, I know 3b has been absolutely wretched this year but any production from Votto to Alonso is going to be pretty step. If healthy for an entire year (with Zimmerman) we are probably a better team overall. But I don't know enough about Zimmerman's injuries to really make me feel comfortable enough to trade Votto who outside of a month in 09 has been very dependable.

Zimmerman is due 12 and 14 million over the next two years compared to 9.5 mil next year and 17 mil the following year for Votto. So the cash is basically a wash, would Zimmerman be willing to negotiate an extension afterwards? If he is and he's not outrageous it is certainly worth talking about. But the Nats have been looking like they want to become a bigger spender with the new ownership in place (Dunn, Werth) they might be willing to pony up the money to keep Votto but if thats the case why trade Zimmerman?

CTA513
08-27-2011, 01:28 PM
If they could afford either guy they would probably keep Zimmerman since hes the face of the franchise.

reds44
08-27-2011, 01:51 PM
No.

mth123
08-27-2011, 02:59 PM
I hear a lot of talk of trading Alonso, but no talk of trading Votto. Moving Yonder would be a huge mistake in the long term.

Why? We're making a couple of big assumptions here.

1. The Reds can't afford or sign Votto. I think both of those are not true. There should always be budget available for the franchise players. What the Reds can't afford is to get nickeled and dimed to death with $2 Million for Renteria, $2 Million for Gomes, $2.5 Million for Nick Masset next year, going to arb with Homer Bailey or Drew Stubbs. Those interchangebale part types are the ones to deal before they get too expensive. Votto at $25 Million is a bargain compared to Renteria at $2 Million. The Reds have lots of kids who can break in as role players on the cheap. There is a ton of money to be saved on the edges of the roster. Why skimp where it really counts?

2. Alonso is a lock to provide an .850+ OPS. Jay Bruce has an OPS of .843 at the present moment, That is the 40th best OPS in all of the major leagues. Victor Martiniez at .822 is the 50th best, I think its a huge assumption that Alonso will step into the line-up and be among the top 50 or so bats in the big leagues. He might very well, but its a big gamble for a contending team to make. Its more of a rebuilding move. He may end up like Justin Smoak (.704 OPS), Brandon Belt (.754), Eric Hosmer (.751), Domonic Brown (.728) or even the relatively successful Mark Trumbo (.775). All of whom are huge drops from the poduction that Votto provides.

3. The Reds can get a similar player at another position for Votto. If I had one of the top 20 position players in baseball, I probably wouldn't be willing to deal him for 2 years of Joey Votto and the right to pay him $30 Million over those two years. Chances are I'd already have a productive 1B, my own version of Yonder Alonso coming up or would have even less ability to afford it than the Reds. If the Reds could find a match, chances are the player received would have the same problem that the Reds face with Votto. Most likely, Votto would fetch a package of mediocre veterans. Those types are nice to pick up on the cheap to fill holes but in general don't have much over the talent coming up in the system. If your dealing the best players on the team for them for monetary reasons, it basically makes you the Pirates. The most value would likely come from a package of high ceiling kids, but that is a move for a team ready to rebuild and I, for one, don't want the rebuild to start before the contending window ever gets off the ground.

This team isn't that far off. They should do this year what the should have done last winter amd that is deal some kids with no place to play (Alonso, Grandal, etc) and get the missing pieces.

HokieRed
08-27-2011, 03:10 PM
1. Considering any Votto trade to Washington seems incomplete without taking into account the Nats already have Morse with a .915 OPS.

2. I'm certainly hoping we don't need to trade Votto because we can sign him, but I also hope we don't trade Alonso because I don't think we'll get adequate value for him. Seems to me still by far the most hopeful outcome is to get them into the lineup at the same time.

RedLegSuperStar
08-27-2011, 03:25 PM
I'd rather do Ethier & Billingsley for Votto, Heisey, & Wood

KronoRed
08-27-2011, 03:30 PM
I hear a lot of talk of trading Alonso, but no talk of trading Votto. Moving Yonder would be a huge mistake in the long term.

Only if one assumes the Reds won't have another bat come up through the minors in the next 2 1/2 years that can be plopped down at 1B.

Personally I think another prospect could be found in that time to play the spot.

mth123
08-27-2011, 03:38 PM
I'd rather do Ethier & Billingsley for Votto, Heisey, & Wood

So we get a platoon player in Ethier who has an OPS of less than .575 vs. LHP, is arb eligible (off a season making $9.5 Million) and is a free agent in 2013 (a year before Votto) and Billingsley who is guaranteed $35 Million over the next 3 years and has an ERA+ of 91. Might be the worst use of a major asset that I could think of. For the cost of those guys the Reds could keep Votto and Wood and still get more production.

mth123
08-27-2011, 03:40 PM
Only if one assumes the Reds won't have another bat come up through the minors in the next 2 1/2 years that can be plopped down at 1B.

Personally I think another prospect could be found in that time to play the spot.

Exactly. It might be Soto. A dark horse may be Juan Duram.

Scrap Irony
08-27-2011, 03:53 PM
I'd rather do Ethier & Billingsley for Votto, Heisey, & Wood

Yuck.

Overpaying at the extreme.

Kemp for Votto? Okay, maybe. But only because Kemp can play CF passably well for his 900 OPS bat to make a difference. Votto is the better player, especially considering career arcs.

RedLegSuperStar
08-27-2011, 06:51 PM
Yuck.

Overpaying at the extreme.

Kemp for Votto? Okay, maybe. But only because Kemp can play CF passably well for his 900 OPS bat to make a difference. Votto is the better player, especially considering career arcs.

But Trading for an injury prone 3rd baseman is all gravy! Welp.. color me stupid. I'd included Kemp but I wouldn't think talks would get far.

RANDY IN INDY
08-28-2011, 12:40 AM
I'm not sure why so many are clamoring to trade the best player on the team, or demand that he play another position. Doesn't make sense to me. Still have 2 years on the contract. Try to surround him with better players and make a run while the chance to win is there. Make a commitment to win. He may just want to stay.

mth123
08-28-2011, 01:03 AM
I'm not sure why so many are clamoring to trade the best player on the team, or demand that he play another position. Doesn't make sense to me. Still have 2 years on the contract. Try to surround him with better players and make a run while the chance to win is there. Make a commitment to win. He may just want to stay.

:thumbup::thumbup:

Redlegs
08-28-2011, 08:31 AM
I'm not sure why so many are clamoring to trade the best player on the team, or demand that he play another position. Doesn't make sense to me. Still have 2 years on the contract. Try to surround him with better players and make a run while the chance to win is there. Make a commitment to win. He may just want to stay.

In years past, it wouldn't be an issue. We have a talented young player in Yonder Alonso. I'm just fearful of the Reds trading him away and losing Votto in 2013. Signing Votto might be the best news we could get as long as it doesn't cripple the rest of the roster.

wlf WV
08-28-2011, 09:30 AM
In years past, it wouldn't be an issue. We have a talented young player in Yonder Alonso. I'm just fearful of the Reds trading him away and losing Votto in 2013. Signing Votto might be the best news we could get as long as it doesn't cripple the rest of the roster.I thought Castellini wanted a winner. Spend money. I don't understand almost casually wanting to trade one of ,if not,the best hitters in baseball.HOF talent is in short supply.

Redlegs
08-28-2011, 09:53 AM
I thought Castellini wanted a winner. Spend money. I don't understand almost casually wanting to trade one of ,if not,the best hitters in baseball.HOF talent is in short supply.

Votto's the best player on the team and one that should be the cornerstone of the franchise. It's unfortunate that teams like the Reds still have to decide to pay the light bill or the gas bill each month when the Yanks, Red Sox, and others can leave every light in the house on.

Castellini is the best owner we've had in years. I have no doubt he wants to win. I think they'll make an effort to extend Votto, but not confident they'll be able to do it. For what it's worth, Marty Brennaman doesn't seem to think they'll even be able to afford the final year of his current contract.

nate
08-28-2011, 12:26 PM
I thought Castellini wanted a winner. Spend money. I don't understand almost casually wanting to trade one of ,if not,the best hitters in baseball.HOF talent is in short supply.

I don't understand shutting off any option of creating a better team.

Votto is an excellent player but if he can bring back players who net improve the team, we'll all pitch in on some hankies for Heather's tears and bid him adieu.

Also, let's not prepare his "Hall of Popularity with Baseball Writers" bust just yet.

Reds1
08-28-2011, 08:05 PM
No.

agree