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Redlegs
08-28-2011, 07:57 PM
Per the Reds postgame show.

JaxRed
08-28-2011, 07:58 PM
Vewy, Vewy, interesting.....

Redlegs
08-28-2011, 08:00 PM
Yonder let the cat out of the bag while being interviewed by the ever inquiring Jeff Piecoro.

lollipopcurve
08-28-2011, 08:01 PM
v. Halladay

kaldaniels
08-28-2011, 08:03 PM
v. Halladay

Dusty's setting him up. Hate to say it but there may be a bit of truth to that. Why finally start him against the best pitcher in the game?

Kc61
08-28-2011, 08:03 PM
Hamels is scheduled for tomorrow.

Also odd, a lefty hurler.

JaxRed
08-28-2011, 08:04 PM
Dusty's setting him up. Hate to say it but there may be a bit of truth to that. Why finally start him against the best pitcher in the game?

But I won't be watching whether Alonso can hit, I'll be watching his defense.

membengal
08-28-2011, 08:08 PM
I just dont have words at this point to capture my confusion over what they are doing with alonso.

Redlegs
08-28-2011, 08:09 PM
How nice it would be if he can play 3B. To have Alonso and Votto on the corners would be fun to watch for the last month of the season.

WVRedsFan
08-28-2011, 08:12 PM
Why not. Played third until he went to UM. The big bat is needed, but against a southpaw?

Brutus
08-28-2011, 08:13 PM
I just dont have words at this point to capture my confusion over what they are doing with alonso.

Why is it confusing? It seems clear they're not planning on trading Votto, thus they're trying to find a place on the field for Alonso.

Ron Madden
08-28-2011, 08:13 PM
I'll be happy if he defends the position as well as Cairo. ;)

WVRedsFan
08-28-2011, 08:14 PM
I'll be happy if he defends the position as well as Cairo. ;)
My thoughts exactly.

membengal
08-28-2011, 08:16 PM
:)
Why is it confusing? It seems clear they're not planning on trading Votto, thus they're trying to find a place on the field for Alonso.

Out of power following hurricane and cant type long responses on phone, but dont be obtuse. Hes practically set-up to fail. First action at 3b since high school? Insane. That was what the minors were for. Where was this then? What a cluster.

PS: Dont know why my phone is inserting smileys. Sorry.

757690
08-28-2011, 08:21 PM
How nice it would be if he can play 3B. To have Alonso and Votto on the corners would be fun to watch for the last month of the season.

That thought is making me warm and fuzzy inside :)

_Sir_Charles_
08-28-2011, 08:22 PM
ummm...wow. He's been working out there for over 2 weeks now. I think they've got a pretty good idea by now of what he can and can't do at third. Still, VERY surprising.

Superdude
08-28-2011, 08:23 PM
This is very likely to be a train wreck, but I'll certainly be rooting for the guy. What a hammer of an offense this would make.

Redlegs
08-28-2011, 08:25 PM
Can't be any worse than when Johnny Bench took a shot at 3B back in 1983.

traderumor
08-28-2011, 08:26 PM
:)

Out of power following hurricane and cant type long responses on phone, but dont be obtuse. Hes practically set-up to fail. First action at 3b since high school? Insane. That was what the minors were for. Where was this then? What a cluster.

PS: Dont know why my phone is inserting smileys. Sorry.I think the point remains that they are trying to find somewhere for him to play, and its not going to be 1b all things being equal as of today. Rolen's been working with him, why not? They obviously need to find a place for his bat and if they can't, then his hitting tryout has been successful and his value on the market has improved.

Captain Hook
08-28-2011, 08:31 PM
I like the guys attitude.He doesn't seem to be flustered one bit from all the shuffling around."Bring it on"says the young man.

Brutus
08-28-2011, 08:32 PM
:)

Out of power following hurricane and cant type long responses on phone, but dont be obtuse. Hes practically set-up to fail. First action at 3b since high school? Insane. That was what the minors were for. Where was this then? What a cluster.

PS: Dont know why my phone is inserting smileys. Sorry.

Well since you're calling me obtuse, I guess the inadvertent smileys make it all better.

I'm not sure what the big deal is. It's clear first base is occupied. Would you rather they not try anything at all? Good grief what's the alternative? It doesn't matter if they did this 2 years ago or now... it's a conclusion that can only be reached if it's actually given a trial effort.

If it fails, it fails. You probably have heard Teddy Roosevelt's famous quote. If the Reds' experiment fails, at least it will fail daring greatly. The upside is unlimited. The risk is none. If it fails, they can simply stick him in left or determine he (or Votto) must be traded. If it works... then all bets are off.

The rest is immaterial. There's no downside to trying this other than the realization it didn't work.

membengal
08-28-2011, 08:35 PM
I would have preferred they not maximize his chances to fail. But hey, whatever.

What are the minors for if not stuff like this. They KNEW votto was there and alonso blocked. The lack of planning is ridic.

traderumor
08-28-2011, 08:48 PM
I would have preferred they not maximize his chances to fail. But hey, whatever.

What are the minors for if not stuff like this. They KNEW votto was there and alonso blocked. The lack of planning is ridic.It could be that the minors were sending signals that he was serviceable in LF, so they went with that. Then, the majors saw it with their own eyes and concluded otherwise. It is not perfect handling, granted, but then sometimes our hindsight and limited facts make it difficult to analyze the decision-making process.

Brutus
08-28-2011, 08:50 PM
I would have preferred they not maximize his chances to fail. But hey, whatever.

What are the minors for if not stuff like this. They KNEW votto was there and alonso blocked. The lack of planning is ridic.

Who says they haven't been planning? It's simply possible their original plan didn't work out as they hoped.

All they're asking him to do is field a baseball and throw a baseball, just at a different position. It's not reinventing the wheel. If it doesn't work, there's nothing lost.

HokieRed
08-28-2011, 08:52 PM
I like it. I figure the more at-bats Yonder gets, the more likely the MVP is to come to the obvious conclusion about what it most likely to turn this team into a winner.

traderumor
08-28-2011, 08:55 PM
And there is a bit of "can't win" in the criticism of trying this. Not every player has to go through the developmental league to try a different position. If the Reds don't try stuff, then they're criticized for not trying things outside the box like other teams do. They want to see his bat in the majors, that seems to be the primary emphasis.

mth123
08-28-2011, 09:03 PM
So, how does this really help? Isn't 3B still occupied by a guy that the Reds will be paying $7.8 Million in 2012 (counting the 3rd installment of his signing bonus). Its not like he's going to be the 3B who solidifies the line-up every day. At best he'll get a couple days per week there. That really doesn't solve the middle of the line-up problem IMO.

IslandRed
08-28-2011, 09:03 PM
I would have preferred they not maximize his chances to fail. But hey, whatever.

What are the minors for if not stuff like this. They KNEW votto was there and alonso blocked. The lack of planning is ridic.

They spent the time in the minors trying to teach him to play left field, which seemed logical at the time, and presumably have concluded it didn't work well enough to be part of future planning. So now they'll try something else.

I figure third base has at least as much chance as left field did, since he's already used to picking up ground balls.

RedsManRick
08-28-2011, 09:29 PM
Let's say Yonder plays a decent 3B. What happens next April when Rolen is healthy?

RedLegSuperStar
08-28-2011, 09:33 PM
I hope and pray he doesn't have an error or a mishap because Dusty will eat it up. It will fuel his fire on reasons to use Alonso as a spot starter and pinch hitter. Yonder is batting .400 as a PH (4-10) and .500 as a starter (10-20). Regardless he is a potent bat in a much needed lineup. Frazier is a guy I like to watch as well and wouldn't mind him getting a shot in LF tomorrow over Sappelt who just looks over matched in games I've seen at the plate. Dusty I know will be quick to pinch hit late in the game For Alonso due to defense.. I just hope Alonso gives him reason to shove that substitute in the opposite end he sticks his tooth picks!

Brutus
08-28-2011, 09:37 PM
Let's say Yonder plays a decent 3B. What happens next April when Rolen is healthy?

Define healthy lol

Perhaps the Reds aren't anticipating too much of that going forward.

GADawg
08-28-2011, 09:42 PM
13 games out heading into September? who cares? give him a shot! I keep thinking that they already let him work out if left so I can't imagine why they just don't roll with it instead of giving time to Lewis. I like Lewis alright i suppose but do any of us really believe he has any kind of future with our Reds?

wlf WV
08-28-2011, 09:42 PM
Define healthy lol

Perhaps the Reds aren't anticipating too much of that going forward.
In light of the situation,that's a bold statement Brutus.

lollipopcurve
08-28-2011, 09:46 PM
We won't be very good over there. I just hope he's not embarrassingly bad.

The point is to get the kid in the lineup -- he deserves it.

757690
08-28-2011, 09:53 PM
Let's say Yonder plays a decent 3B. What happens next April when Rolen is healthy?

I have no problem with Alonso (assuming he can hack it) as the back up to Rolen next season. This also give the Reds a back up to Votto at first (which Votto desperately needed this season) and a strong lefty off the bench.

Even if Rolen comes back strong, Alonso will get 300-400 PA's, and give Rolen and Votto plenty of rest. Plus it gives insurance in case Rolen or Votto goes down for any long period of time, which is more likely to happen.

Of course, this all contingent on Alonso being able to play third, which seems to me to be the least likely of all these situations.

kaldaniels
08-28-2011, 09:58 PM
Its just the way the cookie crumbles sometimes, but I gotta think Alonso is seething somewhere underneath the surface. I think this is the perfect example of a player being "jerked around". He should be in the lineup everyday for a MLB team.

VR
08-28-2011, 10:01 PM
The long list of great third basemen with slow feet is.....well, non-existant.

PuffyPig
08-28-2011, 10:02 PM
Hamels is scheduled for tomorrow.

Also odd, a lefty hurler.

Not so odd considering he hits lefties just fine, actually better this season.

KronoRed
08-28-2011, 10:02 PM
Will he get 3 games there? maybe 5? :D

_Sir_Charles_
08-28-2011, 10:02 PM
Let's say Yonder plays a decent 3B. What happens next April when Rolen is healthy?

Can Rolen play left? :p

PuffyPig
08-28-2011, 10:03 PM
Its just the way the cookie crumbles sometimes, but I gotta think Alonso is seething somewhere underneath the surface. I think this is the perfect example of a player being "jerked around". He should be in the lineup everyday for a MLB team.

If he's sitting on the bench behind Votto in two years, he's being jerked around.

He has about 30 days of being in the majors.

kaldaniels
08-28-2011, 10:05 PM
If he's sitting on the bench behind Votto in two years, he's being jerked around.

He has about 30 days of being in the majors.

Being groomed for LF all season and then having the towel thrown in after 4 games is...?

Redhook
08-28-2011, 10:06 PM
I hope and pray he doesn't have an error or a mishap because Dusty will eat it up. It will fuel his fire on reasons to use Alonso as a spot starter and pinch hitter. Dusty I know will be quick to pinch hit late in the game For Alonso due to defense.. I just hope Alonso gives him reason to shove that substitute in the opposite end he sticks his tooth picks!

I agree. Dusty has been a complete [jerk] towards Yonder. I'd be pretty perturbed if I was Yonder. There's no way this kid should've had the last few days off. There's also no way he should've been given just 3 days in left field in Chicago, of all places. Dusty will be watching Yonder like a hawk and will pull him the moment he shows any semblance of an error. I can't stand Dusty for the way he's handled the Yonder Situation.

All that being said, I think Yonder will be a complete disaster at third. I think he should be playing left field everyday. After enough starts, he should be able to get to the Carlos Lee/Adam Dunn level. He'll do much less damage in left than he will at third.

Kc61
08-28-2011, 10:18 PM
Not so odd considering he hits lefties just fine, actually better this season.

No, it is odd. The whole thing is odd.

Reds draft Alonso about four years ago. It was obvious there was a potential logjam with Votto at first base.

Reds keep Alonso at first base for years. Then, suddenly, this year they try him in left in his last minor league seasons. He doesn't play 3B in the minor leagues.

Predictably, the logjam at first doesn't alleviate. So the Reds give Alonso a short MLB trial in LF. He doesn't do well. They pull the plug immediately

Now, suddenly, he's a third baseman. No minor league experience. Rolen, Cairo, Frazier, Francisco, all third basemen. Rolen signed for next year at a big salary. Cairo also signed for next year with third basically his only position.

And the topping on the cake is that they give Alonso his third base "trial" against a very tough lefty pitcher on the league's best team. Not a particularly good matchup. Kind of a weird spot to suddenly inject Alonso into the lineup.

Odd, in my view, is an understatement.

And it makes me wonder how much attention the Reds are paying to their prospects. Wasn't this whole thing predictable? Didn't the Reds have a plan for this talented guy?

membengal
08-28-2011, 10:23 PM
Full blown agreement with KC in all respects. Hes typed what i would have if had power and were not having to post from phond.

kaldaniels
08-28-2011, 10:23 PM
No, it is odd. The whole thing is odd.

Reds draft Alonso about four years ago. It was obvious there was a potential logjam with Votto at first base.

Reds keep Alonso at first base for years. Then, suddenly, this year they try him in left in his last minor league seasons. He doesn't play 3B in the minor leagues.

Predictably, the logjam at first doesn't alleviate. So the Reds give Alonso a short MLB trial in LF. He doesn't do well. They pull the plug immediately

Now, suddenly, he's a third baseman. No minor league experience. Rolen, Cairo, Frazier, Francisco, all third baseman. Rolen signed for next year at a big salary.

And the topping on the cake is that they give Alonso his third base "trial" against a very tough lefty pitcher on the league's best team. Not a particularly good matchup. Kind of a weird spot to suddenly inject Alonso into the lineup.

Odd, in my view, is an understatement.

And it makes me wonder how much attention the Reds are paying to their prospects. Wasn't this whole thing predictable? Didn't the Reds have a plan for this talented guy?

I think the Reds have handled Alonso poorly. However one point that should not be on the table in my opinion is the "We had Votto so we shouldn't have even drafted Yonder" point.

GoReds
08-28-2011, 10:27 PM
My thought is the Reds are hedging their bet on Rolen for next year in hoping that Alonso can bolster the lineup while Votto is around.

No matter what happens, I think the Reds will listen to offers for both Votto and Alonso in the offseason. If Votto is traded, the problem is solved. If Alonso is traded, problem solved. If neither are traded and Alonso is serviceable, the Reds have alternatives.

For Alonso, this can really only boost his value. If it works out, he becomes a more valuable commodity. If not, it's not like people don't already know Alonso is a quality 1B/DH. Not sure, from Alonso's perspective, where this doesn't pay off.

Does anyone know that he hasn't requested a trial?

Kc61
08-28-2011, 10:27 PM
I think the Reds have handled Alonso poorly. However one point that should not be on the table in my opinion is the "We had Votto so we shouldn't have even drafted Yonder" point.

You're correct, Kal. It was fine to draft him.

I believe in drafting the best player available at any position.

But then you have to manage your prospects. You can't just let them pile up and then, suddenly, try them out at new positions at the major league level.

Kc61
08-28-2011, 10:29 PM
My thought is the Reds are hedging their bet on Rolen for next year in hoping that Alonso can bolster the lineup while Votto is around.

No matter what happens, I think the Reds will listen to offers for both Votto and Alonso in the offseason. If Votto is traded, the problem is solved. If Alonso is traded, problem solved. If neither are traded and Alonso is serviceable, the Reds have alternatives.

For Alonso, this can really only boost his value. If it works out, he becomes a more valuable commodity. If not, it's not like people don't already know Alonso is a quality 1B/DH. Not sure, from Alonso's perspective, where this doesn't pay off.

Does anyone know that he hasn't requested a trial?

This is the major leagues. You don't hedge bets by suddenly putting a guy in a new position.

If they want to hedge their bet with Todd Frazier, fine. Understandable. Cairo, fine. Even Francisco, fine.

But putting Yonder at a brand new position makes absolutely no sense to me. Sorry.

And keep in mind this isn't an athletic shortstop being moved to second or third base. This guy is a first baseman/DH/ possible left fielder. Third base does not seem like an easy or natural move. We'll see, I guess, but this does not reflect good planning to me.

Oh well, I hope it works out. Whatever.

HokieRed
08-28-2011, 10:33 PM
To me the most important thing is to see Yonder get at-bats, but I have to agree with KC that this looks like a very much ad hoc move that's highly unlikely to succeed and really makes you wonder what they've been thinking about in the FO.

757690
08-28-2011, 10:39 PM
This is the major leagues. You don't hedge bets by suddenly putting a guy in a new position.

If they want to hedge their bet with Todd Frazier, fine. Understandable. Cairo, fine. Even Francisco, fine.

But putting this guy at a brand new position makes absolutely no sense to me. Sorry.

It's done more often than you think, especially with top prospects.

Phillips from SS to 2B
Ryan Braun from 3B to LF
Youk from 1B to 3B
Pujols from 3B to LF to 1B
M. Cabrera from 3B to 1B

That's just off the top of my head.

Granted, these were all from a more difficult position to a less difficult position, but these guys are professional athletes. it's silly to treat them like porcelain dolls. If they can hit, you try to find room for them.

BCubb2003
08-28-2011, 10:41 PM
If it does work, Rolen should be Coach of the Year.

wlf WV
08-28-2011, 10:48 PM
To me the most important thing is to see Yonder get at-bats, but I have to agree with KC that this looks like a very much ad hoc move that's highly unlikely to succeed and really makes you wonder what they've been thinking about in the FO.
My sentiments . I suspect this story may bring scrutiny elsewhere.

Like Captain Hook,I admire the young man's attitude.

757690
08-28-2011, 10:49 PM
Let's remember that Alonso broke his wrist his first full year in the minors, and this year wa the first one in which he has gotten his power back. I doubt the Reds wanted to have him deal with learnig a new position, when he was still developing as a hitter.

Always Red
08-28-2011, 10:54 PM
I think the Reds have handled Alonso poorly. However one point that should not be on the table in my opinion is the "We had Votto so we shouldn't have even drafted Yonder" point.

Totally agree with this- on the day Alonso was drafted, Votto was barely halfway into his first year, and a hot 2nd half propelled him to finish 2nd in the NL Rookie of the Year voting.

Joey was no sure thing at that point.

Caveat Emperor
08-28-2011, 10:54 PM
I'm honestly baffled by how the Reds have handled Alonso -- I get that they're keeping him around because they know Votto is gone in 2 years and they need someone to man 1st base after that, but you'd think they'd have sent him down to get some game time in at 3rd base before trying this in the majors.

klw
08-28-2011, 11:05 PM
http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20110828/SPT04/308280045/Rolen-says-he-s-close-returning?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Reds
Rolen says he is close to returning.


Scott Rolen feels great, and the Reds’ regular third baseman is eager to play again soon.

Rolen, who had surgery on his left shoulder Aug. 3, has recovered enough to field grounders and hit in the cage in recent days.

“I’m close, in my opinion, to getting back on the field,” Rolen said. “What close is, I don’t know. It’s not hours.”



Rolen, 36, said he has noticed a difference even in hitting just soft-tosses in the cage.

“I’m unbelievably healthier than before I went into the surgery,” he said.

VR
08-28-2011, 11:43 PM
Can Rolen play left? :p

Rolen to first, Votto to left. Problem solved.

MikeS21
08-28-2011, 11:47 PM
No, it is odd. The whole thing is odd.

Reds draft Alonso about four years ago. It was obvious there was a potential logjam with Votto at first base.

Reds keep Alonso at first base for years. Then, suddenly, this year they try him in left in his last minor league seasons. He doesn't play 3B in the minor leagues.

Predictably, the logjam at first doesn't alleviate. So the Reds give Alonso a short MLB trial in LF. He doesn't do well. They pull the plug immediately

Now, suddenly, he's a third baseman. No minor league experience. Rolen, Cairo, Frazier, Francisco, all third basemen. Rolen signed for next year at a big salary. Cairo also signed for next year with third basically his only position.

And the topping on the cake is that they give Alonso his third base "trial" against a very tough lefty pitcher on the league's best team. Not a particularly good matchup. Kind of a weird spot to suddenly inject Alonso into the lineup.

Odd, in my view, is an understatement.

And it makes me wonder how much attention the Reds are paying to their prospects. Wasn't this whole thing predictable? Didn't the Reds have a plan for this talented guy?
IMO, you've answered your own questions.

First of all, when the Reds drafted Alonso, they drafted the player they considered the best player available. You can argue the validity of their choice until the cows come home, but that was why they went with Alonso. It had nothing to do do with a logjam at a particular position (ie. Mesoraco and Grandal). In 2008 when Alonso was drafted, Joey Votto was still a relative rookie with a promising future, and while he was an extreme fan favorite, no one expected MVP numbers out of Votto.

As far as why the Reds waited until now to try Alonso at 3B, I believe has to do with the players you mentioned: Rolen, Cairo, Frazier, Francisco. Add to that list, guys like Valaika, Costanzo, and Griffin, and you can see there are a LOT of 3B's vying for playing time in the minors.

The Reds have a lot of precedent here with the likes of Dan Dreissen and Nick Esasky. As soon as it sinks in that Votto will leave at the end of this contract, Alonso will move to 1B and this will be a moot discussion. In the meantime, expect Alonso to play a little LF and fill in for Rolen at 3B. Accept that there will be some misadventures on defense. But if he adds some offense, it might be worth it.

In fact, the real mystery here is not why the Reds are playing Alonso at 3B, but what does this mean for the likes of Frazier and Fransisco?

Guacarock
08-29-2011, 12:05 AM
Since Alonso got called up on July 26, Joey Votto has walloped 13 home runs. In other words, Votto has hit as many home runs over roughly the past month as he logged over the first four months of the season. During that time span, Votto has elevated his OPS from .909 to .994.

Maybe it's just a coincidence, but it looks to me like having a little competition spurred the reigning National League MVP to reach within and step up his game. I'm not suggesting he was mailing it in pre-Alonso. A .909 OPS is nothing to sneeze at. Still, if Votto hadn't been pushed and hadn't registered this recent spike in his performance, would anyone be suggesting him as a legitimate candidate to repeat as the NL MVP? I don't think so.

The long and short of it? It's to the Reds' advantage to get creative and find ways to keep Alonso on the roster and work him into the starting lineup, whether it be at LF or 3B, or ultimately, 1B. Whether we end up dealing Alonso, Votto, neither of them, or both of them, we're best served when we build a little competition into the equation. Some might call that redundancy or poor planning, but legitimate competition can spur productivity and give you new options that didn't exist before.

Reds/Flyers Fan
08-29-2011, 12:19 AM
I'd rather see Alonso get some more time in LF. Three games in Wrigley and one in DC (in his first games ever in those parks) is hardly a good sample.

mdccclxix
08-29-2011, 12:44 AM
I'll be looking for whether he can stay in front of balls, knock them down. Late in games that's more important than making the throw in time. Just so long as he isn't a doubles factory for the opponent, that's a good sign.

LoganBuck
08-29-2011, 01:27 AM
An interesting blast from the past thread.
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75509

marcshoe
08-29-2011, 01:43 AM
Alonso to third seems like a longshot, but you might as well find out now. Heading into 2012 expecting Rolen to carry the load at third would be a big mistake. I've been a Rolen fan since his days with the Phillies, but at this point, he's toast. He's just not physically able to take the grind.

Blitz Dorsey
08-29-2011, 01:44 AM
This whole thing is like the baseball version of what the Bengals would do. "Hey, let's try him over at third. You know, it's not hard to play the hot corner or anything. Picking it up at the MLB level after never doing it before shouldn't be a problem at all."

Blitz Dorsey
08-29-2011, 01:46 AM
Alonso to third seems like a longshot, but you might as well find out now. Heading into 2012 expecting Rolen to carry the load at third would be a big mistake. I've been a Rolen fan since his days with the Phillies, but at this point, he's toast. He's just not physically able to take the grind.

The Reds have two intriguing prospects in Frazier and Francisco to play third if Rolen has (another) injury-marred season.

marcshoe
08-29-2011, 01:49 AM
The Reds have two intriguing prospects in Frazier and Francisco to play third if Rolen has (another) injury-marred season.

If they're going to contend, they need more than possibilities. Maybe Francisco will stay healthy and play decent defense. Maybe Frazier can hit consistently. Maybe not.

If Alonso somehow ends up playing a passable third, then you've found a way to add a difference-making bat to the lineup without removing your best hitter. If not, hey, Kearns is available....;)

Caveat Emperor
08-29-2011, 02:05 AM
The Reds have two intriguing prospects in Frazier and Francisco to play third if Rolen has (another) injury-marred season.

The only thing that is even potentially intriguing about Juan Francisco is whether he'd merely break the all-time single season strikeout record with a full season of PAs, or if he'd set a number so high that no one would ever sniff breaking it again.

Kid has unbelievable power, but he has such poor pitch recognition and OB skills that he's next to useless as a ballplayer. Unless, of course, you want a player who needs to hit .280 to keep his OBP above .300...

cumberlandreds
08-29-2011, 08:44 AM
Can't be any worse than when Johnny Bench took a shot at 3B back in 1983.

That's kinda the way I look at it. Alonso at his age may be a better hitter than Bench was then too. Alonso may be bad defensively but it appears to me that this guy can flat out hit. Sometimes you have to suffer with a bad defensive person in order to get a really good to great hitter in the lineup. Look at Berkman. Terrible defenisvely, but his bat more than compensates for his defense. I hope it turns out that way for Alonso although I don't think 3b will be his ultimate position.

Caveat Emperor
08-29-2011, 09:23 AM
That's kinda the way I look at it. Alonso at his age may be a better hitter than Bench was then too. Alonso may be bad defensively but it appears to me that this guy can flat out hit. Sometimes you have to suffer with a bad defensive person in order to get a really good to great hitter in the lineup. Look at Berkman. Terrible defenisvely, but his bat more than compensates for his defense. I hope it turns out that way for Alonso although I don't think 3b will be his ultimate position.

Though, it's worth noting that this slippery slope of "trading offense for defense" was a repeated theme for this team over the majority of the last decade -- really, it wasn't until they changed that thinking and started insisting on quality defense (especially infield defense) that they finally broke through last season.

redsmetz
08-29-2011, 09:43 AM
It's done more often than you think, especially with top prospects.

Phillips from SS to 2B
Ryan Braun from 3B to LF
Youk from 1B to 3B
Pujols from 3B to LF to 1B
M. Cabrera from 3B to 1B

That's just off the top of my head.

Granted, these were all from a more difficult position to a less difficult position, but these guys are professional athletes. it's silly to treat them like porcelain dolls. If they can hit, you try to find room for them.

You left off perhaps one of the major ones, certainly from the Reds standpoint.

Pete Rose: From 2B to LF, then to RF and back to LF (even played 56 games in CF in 1969, a smattering of other games there in various seasons). Then the famous move to 3B and finally finishing out at 1B. He started in an All Star game in all five positions at that.

I agree with those saying we have nothing to lose and everything to gain. Every AB where Alonso succeeds bolsters his value. While some ambiguity remains about what Votto will ultimately do when he's eligible for free agency, finding a place somewhere in the line-up for Alonso is important if he remains on the club.

Kudos to Alonso for his maturity in dealing with his circumstances. He understands his position in the scheme of things and is showing himself to be a team player. He'll have his chance one day, whether with us or elsewhere. We're a bit schizophrenic on this board wanting him in there and decrying trying to find yet another option for putting his bat in the game.

We always so certain how things will play out around here. Personally, I'm anxious to see if Alonso can do this. Good for him being ready to do what's needed to get into games.

BCubb2003
08-29-2011, 09:43 AM
Though, it's worth noting that this slippery slope of "trading offense for defense" was a repeated theme for this team over the majority of the last decade -- really, it wasn't until they changed that thinking and started insisting on quality defense (especially infield defense) that they finally broke through last season.

I agree. We noticed the difference right away, and we noticed when Cairo and Renteria were both in.

lollipopcurve
08-29-2011, 10:09 AM
The long and short of it? It's to the Reds' advantage to get creative and find ways to keep Alonso on the roster and work him into the starting lineup, whether it be at LF or 3B, or ultimately, 1B. Whether we end up dealing Alonso, Votto, neither of them, or both of them, we're best served when we build a little competition into the equation. Some might call that redundancy or poor planning, but legitimate competition can spur productivity and give you new options that didn't exist before.

I agree with this. I remember the night they had newly signed 1st-round draft choice Yonder Alonso in the TV booth. Votto hit a monster HR into the GAB Moon deck, maybe even 2 HRs that night. Coincidence, perhaps. But the symmetry seemed notable.

The position they really need to put into competition is CF. Stubbs vs. Sappelt vs. Heisey vs. Phipps. IMO, you'd come out with a better player than they'd get just playing Stubbs every day, like they're doing now. That player could be Stubbs, but I think they need to make him sweat a little bit now.

cumberlandreds
08-29-2011, 10:13 AM
Though, it's worth noting that this slippery slope of "trading offense for defense" was a repeated theme for this team over the majority of the last decade -- really, it wasn't until they changed that thinking and started insisting on quality defense (especially infield defense) that they finally broke through last season.

I think you can trade defense for offense at one position. But if you start doing that for multiple positions then you get into trouble. Also you need to be good elsewhere defensively to compensate for the one poor defender. That poor defender also had better have a really good to great bat or it is a detriment to your team. Alonso is certainly a risk by doing this but one worth taking in September since the Reds are out of the playoff hunt.

Blitz Dorsey
08-29-2011, 10:14 AM
The only thing that is even potentially intriguing about Juan Francisco is whether he'd merely break the all-time single season strikeout record with a full season of PAs, or if he'd set a number so high that no one would ever sniff breaking it again.

Kid has unbelievable power, but he has such poor pitch recognition and OB skills that he's next to useless as a ballplayer. Unless, of course, you want a player who needs to hit .280 to keep his OBP above .300...

He's going to break the all-time strikeout record as a backup? People keep forgetting that Scott Rolen is signed through next season and will be the starting 3B whether we like it or not. Then the matter becomes finding a legit backup and we have two in-house candidates in Frazier and Francisco.

If Rolen was going to be a free agent after this season, I could understand all the talk about getting a third baseman. But the fact of the matter is Rolen will be the starter in 2012 (well, for 50 games or so including his five stops on the DL) and they'll use Frazier and Francisco (and Cairo who's also signed for another year) as the backups. No way this team goes out and tries to find a 3B. I would like it to happen, but it won't.

Blitz Dorsey
08-29-2011, 10:18 AM
If they're going to contend, they need more than possibilities. Maybe Francisco will stay healthy and play decent defense. Maybe Frazier can hit consistently. Maybe not.

If Alonso somehow ends up playing a passable third, then you've found a way to add a difference-making bat to the lineup without removing your best hitter. If not, hey, Kearns is available....;)

LMAO on the Kearns reference. (I love how we all have long memories on the ridiculous ideas the team has concocted over the years.) But keep in mind the Reds will have a total of four in-house options at 3B when the 2012 season opens: Rolen, Frazier, Francisco and Cairo.

Hey, I hope it works out for Alonso at third. I just can't imagine it happening though. We're talking about one of the toughest defensive positions on the diamond. You don't just move someone to 3B at the MLB level. Especially a guy not very athletic in Alonso who couldn't even play LF (which is much-easier in general than manning the hot corner).

chicoruiz
08-29-2011, 10:26 AM
I don't know... I'm considering the possibility that this may have been triggered by Alonso himself. Maybe he said to management, "You know, I still don't feel as comfortable in the outfield as I did back in school when I used to play third. If you're trying to get me some ABs, could I at least take a shot at third base?" I'm not saying that's how it went down, but I think it's a possibility.

The Reds are really in a no-win situation here. If they don't get him some playing time SOMEWHERE, everyone's going to say "why did you call him up if you're not going to play him?" If they play him at 3B or LF people are going to moan about his defense. Sending him back to AAA wouldn't be too popular either, and playing him at first is an obvious non-starter.

Should they have worked him at another position earlier in his minor league career? Maybe, but they seem to have made the decision to leave him at first at least until his bat came around to their expected levels, which is a relatively recent development. Up until this year, the primary question wasn't "where are we going to play him", it was "when is he going to start living up to our expectations".

traderumor
08-29-2011, 10:43 AM
No, it is odd. The whole thing is odd.

Reds draft Alonso about four years ago. It was obvious there was a potential logjam with Votto at first base.

Reds keep Alonso at first base for years. Then, suddenly, this year they try him in left in his last minor league seasons. He doesn't play 3B in the minor leagues.

Predictably, the logjam at first doesn't alleviate. So the Reds give Alonso a short MLB trial in LF. He doesn't do well. They pull the plug immediately

Now, suddenly, he's a third baseman. No minor league experience. Rolen, Cairo, Frazier, Francisco, all third basemen. Rolen signed for next year at a big salary. Cairo also signed for next year with third basically his only position.

And the topping on the cake is that they give Alonso his third base "trial" against a very tough lefty pitcher on the league's best team. Not a particularly good matchup. Kind of a weird spot to suddenly inject Alonso into the lineup.

Odd, in my view, is an understatement.

And it makes me wonder how much attention the Reds are paying to their prospects. Wasn't this whole thing predictable? Didn't the Reds have a plan for this talented guy?It just highlights the fact that the Reds are doing much better accumulating talent by drafting who they think is the best player available instead of focusing on perceived needs at a position.

traderumor
08-29-2011, 10:59 AM
The Cards endured a few years of Pujols at 3b and LF before McGwire was done and he moved to 1B. You do that with special bats, and it may be that the Reds think Alonso is that kind of special bat. It appears that many on here think he is a candidate to be a masher, so the Reds trying to find him a position at the major league level seems like a good decision to me. Is it optimal? I don't know, but I keep on hearing crying for a middle of the order bat. What if its in house?

As for "what about Rolen?" What about him? How much of him have we seen this year? I'm starting to wonder if his prognosis isn't good for the shoulder.

REDREAD
08-29-2011, 11:31 AM
Let's say Yonder plays a decent 3B. What happens next April when Rolen is healthy?

I think 2012 is Rolen's last season.
If Alonso can play 3b, he can get 3-4 starts/week at 3b, 1b, LF.

I am kind of surprised the Reds are trying this, but I applaud them for trying to think outside the box. I don't think Dusty is setting up Alonso to fail by starting him against Halladay.. The Reds know Alonso can hit. It really doesn't matter which team he makes his fielding debut at 3b against.

reds44
08-29-2011, 12:39 PM
Serious question, how much different are the reaction times and reactions to balls at third than first? If Alonso can make the throws to first is their a chance he can play a passable third base?

Or is that just not going to happen?

TRF
08-29-2011, 12:40 PM
I'm going to make a simple request.

Can we not compare any player to Pete Rose? except maybe Ty Cobb? because that is his only comp offensively, career wise, from a health standpoint, longevity etc.

Yonder Alonso will be 25 at the earliest in his first full major league season, assuming he's next years starter at 3B or LF. if not he might be 26 before that happens. So can we please not compare him to Rose? for his sake? The moves Rose made all over the field don't have a lot or precedence or examples of that happening since he started playing.

Alonso MIGHT be a very good hitter. he might be a great hitter. He's had 59 MLB AB's in 2 seasons. Defensively, he doesn't excel at any position, and his natural position, 1B is kinda occupied. Also, he's not a great 1B either. I've not seen one report raving about his D at any position.

But his bat is being discussed like it was the second coming. Adam Dunn was vilified on this board and on the air for his defense, and yet by his age 25 season, he had 120+ HR's and OPS'd over .900 3 times.

I don't see Alonso as a .900+ OPS beast. I see him as an .850-.900 OPS guy, very consistent, average to below average defense. no speed and I see him as having a fairly quick dropoff too.

I do not, and have never gotten the Alonso fanboy posts. He's Todd Frazier without the versatility or speed. A nice player, but i don't wring hands worrying about getting his bat in the lineup.

Redsfan320
08-29-2011, 12:45 PM
Serious question, how much different are the reaction times and reactions to balls at third than first? If Alonso can make the throws to first is their a chance he can play a passable third base?


At 3rd, you're typically at least 10 feet closer, but it shouldn't be a huge difference, IMO.

320

Cedric
08-29-2011, 12:48 PM
Depends on ceilings I suppose. I can't remember anyone ever thinking Frazier has the upside that Yonder has. You find ways to fit Yonder Alonso type bats into your lineup and I applaud the Reds for doing this. Though I seriously doubt it works.

mdccclxix
08-29-2011, 01:01 PM
I just want to bring up the fact that many people see 3b as an offensive position when it's really not that strong of one around the league.

If Alonso has an OPS over .850, he'll be a top 5 offensive 3b in all of baseball. This year there are two 3b over .850 OPS, Youk and Aramis. Since 2009, you have Youk, Rodriguez, Zimmerman, and Longoria over .850 OPS. That's it.

3b is not the LF of the infield or anything. It's rare to find an .850, or even .800 OPS, bat to stick there. To that extent, his erring ways may be a bit more easy to make up for with the bat if he's at 3b, as compared with the rest of the league.

puca
08-29-2011, 01:03 PM
There is so little chance that this will work. I think time better spent would be having him work on his LF defense.

traderumor
08-29-2011, 01:10 PM
I'm going to make a simple request.

Can we not compare any player to Pete Rose? except maybe Ty Cobb? because that is his only comp offensively, career wise, from a health standpoint, longevity etc.

Yonder Alonso will be 25 at the earliest in his first full major league season, assuming he's next years starter at 3B or LF. if not he might be 26 before that happens. So can we please not compare him to Rose? for his sake? The moves Rose made all over the field don't have a lot or precedence or examples of that happening since he started playing.

Alonso MIGHT be a very good hitter. he might be a great hitter. He's had 59 MLB AB's in 2 seasons. Defensively, he doesn't excel at any position, and his natural position, 1B is kinda occupied. Also, he's not a great 1B either. I've not seen one report raving about his D at any position.

But his bat is being discussed like it was the second coming. Adam Dunn was vilified on this board and on the air for his defense, and yet by his age 25 season, he had 120+ HR's and OPS'd over .900 3 times.

I don't see Alonso as a .900+ OPS beast. I see him as an .850-.900 OPS guy, very consistent, average to below average defense. no speed and I see him as having a fairly quick dropoff too.

I do not, and have never gotten the Alonso fanboy posts. He's Todd Frazier without the versatility or speed. A nice player, but i don't wring hands worrying about getting his bat in the lineup.His name was mentioned in the context of position changes, which I thought was a relevant point. I didn't see an argument that he was a comp. offensively?????

I also don't get why he is incomparable. That seems a bit of an overstatement, all things considered.

mdccclxix
08-29-2011, 01:12 PM
Mark Reynolds is a terrible defender, Michael Young and David Wright aren't the greatest either, we'll have to see if Alonso falls short of even that while OPSing above .800 like them.

IslandRed
08-29-2011, 01:21 PM
Serious question, how much different are the reaction times and reactions to balls at third than first? If Alonso can make the throws to first is their a chance he can play a passable third base?

Or is that just not going to happen?

Certainly, third is a better comp to first base than left field is, since it's about reaction time and good hands, and not so much "fast" as "quick."

I'll say that if Alonso can translate his first-base ability to pick up hard-hit ground balls, and can make the throws across the diamond, he could be passable. Although we'd have to expect it to be a range-challenged flavor of passable.

Caveat Emperor
08-29-2011, 02:54 PM
...so, over / under on how many times the Phillies will bunt at him tonight?

dougdirt
08-29-2011, 02:57 PM
I do not, and have never gotten the Alonso fanboy posts. He's Todd Frazier without the versatility or speed. A nice player, but i don't wring hands worrying about getting his bat in the lineup.

I like Todd Frazier.... but he wishes that Yonder Alonso were him without the versatility or speed. Frazier doesn't have the patience of Alonso, nor the contact ability or hit tool of Alonso. Power wise, Frazier can match him. At the plate, its the only thing that he can even come close to matching him on.

Rojo
08-29-2011, 03:25 PM
It just highlights the fact that the Reds are doing much better accumulating talent by drafting who they think is the best player available instead of focusing on perceived needs at a position.

So we shouldn't have taken Lawrie?

dougdirt
08-29-2011, 03:28 PM
So we shouldn't have taken Lawrie?

He went about 10 picks after Alonso. The consensus at the time probably would have told you that Alonso > Lawrie. Hindsight is always 20/20, but even with hindsight, I think its a stretch to suggest that the Reds made a mistake in taking Alonso in favor of Lawrie.

reds44
08-29-2011, 04:25 PM
I do not, and have never gotten the Alonso fanboy posts. He's Todd Frazier without the versatility or speed. A nice player, but i don't wring hands worrying about getting his bat in the lineup.
Ehh what? Alonso is a much better hitter than Frazier. They really aren't similar players.

I also don't understand why people are using the fact the Reds have the NL MVP playing 1st base right now as a reason to rip. Yonder Alonso has a position. He's a first baseman. He can play a perfectly acceptable 1st base.

The Reds are playing meaningless games right now. Try him in left, try him third, see if there's a place he can stick. I don't get what the big deal is.

lollipopcurve
08-29-2011, 04:37 PM
Try him in left, try him third, see if there's a place he can stick. I don't get what the big deal is.

Agreed. And frankly, playing him is the right thing to do at this point.

Former 1st rounder who has kept his mouth shut and worked hard at changing positions. The organization has invested in him, and he has answered well by being willing to adapt to the organization's needs, all the while handling himself very well in the public eye. Time for the organization to at least give him the benefit of some playing time -- not to mention the fact he has raked.

Ron Madden
08-29-2011, 04:39 PM
Yonder is in the lineup tonight @ 3B hitting 5TH.

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2011/08/29/reds-lineup-166/


Three LH hitters in a row. What's gotten into Dusty?

.

Rojo
08-29-2011, 04:57 PM
He went about 10 picks after Alonso. The consensus at the time probably would have told you that Alonso > Lawrie. Hindsight is always 20/20, but even with hindsight, I think its a stretch to suggest that the Reds made a mistake in taking Alonso in favor of Lawrie.

What I'm suggesting is that Lawrie (or, to be fair, Gordon Beckham) was the "need" pick.

You win, in the long run, by picking talent over need. But I don't like picking that high up the defensive spectrum. No wiggle room.

traderumor
08-29-2011, 05:10 PM
So we shouldn't have taken Lawrie?I'm not sure I get your point. Mine was that the Reds didn't hesitate to take who THEY wanted and didn't play the "oh, but we already have a 1b game." That stuff changes too fast to get wrapped up in positions at draft time.

Well, seeing what you said above, I think we are on the same page, except that you think Alonso's D was too limited to assume a position switch would resolve any position blockage at the major league level?

TRF
08-29-2011, 05:31 PM
Ehh what? Alonso is a much better hitter than Frazier. They really aren't similar players.

I also don't understand why people are using the fact the Reds have the NL MVP playing 1st base right now as a reason to rip. Yonder Alonso has a position. He's a first baseman. He can play a perfectly acceptable 1st base.

The Reds are playing meaningless games right now. Try him in left, try him third, see if there's a place he can stick. I don't get what the big deal is.

I rip not because of Votto. I rip because he's never dominated any minor league he was in. Yes, he had the hand injury. so did Neftali Soto. Except Soto's power has come on strong while Alonso's... meh. 12 HR's in AAA this year. color me unimpressed.

The difference between Frazier and Alonso is Frazier is a year older. similar power, Alonso with a bit better OBP of late, but over their career's Frazier has actually displayed more power. Yonder MIGHT be the better player offensively, but it isn't like he's all that much better. Plus, I'd bet Frazier is better with the glove regardless of the position.

If Yonder can stick at 3B, great, but I think overall, Frazier is better at 3B than Yonder, and he'd be better in LF than Yonder.

dougdirt
08-29-2011, 05:44 PM
I rip not because of Votto. I rip because he's never dominated any minor league he was in. Yes, he had the hand injury. so did Neftali Soto. Except Soto's power has come on strong while Alonso's... meh. 12 HR's in AAA this year. color me unimpressed.

The difference between Frazier and Alonso is Frazier is a year older. similar power, Alonso with a bit better OBP of late, but over their career's Frazier has actually displayed more power. Yonder MIGHT be the better player offensively, but it isn't like he's all that much better. Plus, I'd bet Frazier is better with the glove regardless of the position.

If Yonder can stick at 3B, great, but I think overall, Frazier is better at 3B than Yonder, and he'd be better in LF than Yonder.

Since July of 2010 (the one year mark of him breaking his wrist), Yonder Alonso has hit .323/.402/.542 between AAA and the Majors with 48 doubles, 6 triples and 24 HR's in 601 at bats. That impresses me.

And yes, I would be willing to wager that Alonso is all that much better the hitter than Frazier. He is going to hit .30 points higher than him IsoD probably 20-30 more points higher than him and have similar power. That adds up to a significantly better offensive player.

TRF
08-29-2011, 06:11 PM
Since July of 2010 (the one year mark of him breaking his wrist), Yonder Alonso has hit .323/.402/.542 between AAA and the Majors with 48 doubles, 6 triples and 24 HR's in 601 at bats. That impresses me.

And yes, I would be willing to wager that Alonso is all that much better the hitter than Frazier. He is going to hit .30 points higher than him IsoD probably 20-30 more points higher than him and have similar power. That adds up to a significantly better offensive player.

Now put him at any position but 1B, because Votto is entrenched for at least 2 years, certainly 1 more year. And since we are projecting, lets go with continued improvement from Soto, Alonso and Frazier.

Has Alonso been impressive at the MLB level this year? yes. going forward, is his bat plus his defense better than Frazier? I don't believe it is.

IMO you don't turn this sept in to extended ST for Yonder just yet. I would 10 days from now with Frazier getting just as many AB's but in LF. If Yonder butchers 3B, he gets shopped as a 1B over the winter and his time as a Red is done.

dougdirt
08-29-2011, 06:15 PM
Now put him at any position but 1B, because Votto is entrenched for at least 2 years, certainly 1 more year. And since we are projecting, lets go with continued improvement from Soto, Alonso and Frazier.

Has Alonso been impressive at the MLB level this year? yes. going forward, is his bat plus his defense better than Frazier? I don't believe it is.

IMO you don't turn this sept in to extended ST for Yonder just yet. I would 10 days from now with Frazier getting just as many AB's but in LF. If Yonder butchers 3B, he gets shopped as a 1B over the winter and his time as a Red is done.

Nothing you said has anything to do with your original statement that Alonso isn't a better hitter than Frazier though. Or that you aren't impressed by his numbers.

In left field, I will take Alonso over Frazier. Defense and all. At third base, I don't know. Have never seen Alonso over there.

Rojo
08-29-2011, 06:22 PM
I'm not sure I get your point. Mine was that the Reds didn't hesitate to take who THEY wanted and didn't play the "oh, but we already have a 1b game." That stuff changes too fast to get wrapped up in positions at draft time.

Well, seeing what you said above, I think we are on the same page, except that you think Alonso's D was too limited to assume a position switch would resolve any position blockage at the major league level?

Talent over need has become axiomatic -- for good reason, it's probably correct. But I also don't like drafting slow-footed 1b/DH types for the reason we're seeing here. And corner bats aren't that hard to find unless we're talking rarified bats. Votto's one of those. Jury's out on Alonso.

TRF
08-29-2011, 06:33 PM
Nothing you said has anything to do with your original statement that Alonso isn't a better hitter than Frazier though. Or that you aren't impressed by his numbers.

In left field, I will take Alonso over Frazier. Defense and all. At third base, I don't know. Have never seen Alonso over there.

I don't think he's a better hitter. period. I think he's white hot right now in a very limited sample size, but I think he regresses and going forward in his career, IF he has one, he's an .850 OPS DH/1B.

Frazier I see in the same light, but with the ability to play multiple positions well.

dougdirt
08-29-2011, 07:13 PM
I don't think he's a better hitter. period. I think he's white hot right now in a very limited sample size, but I think he regresses and going forward in his career, IF he has one, he's an .850 OPS DH/1B.

Frazier I see in the same light, but with the ability to play multiple positions well.

While I agree that Alonso is white hot, at no point in time has Frazier ever been considered to be a similar hitter to Alonso. I just can't see what you are basing it on.

Alonso makes more contact, Alonso walks more and he has similar power. All of that suggests he is going to have a higher average, significantly higher OBP and similar power (if not more because his AVG will start out higher).

RedsManRick
08-29-2011, 07:57 PM
FWIW, career minor league numbers. Consider that Alonso's power was seriously affected by his wrist injury. Biggest difference I see is that Alonso makes more contact and will thus hit for a higher average. Similar patience and power though.



BB% K% ISO
Frazier 11.1 19.2 .196
Alonso 12.1 15.1 .173

I've always thought of them as something like .260/.320/.440 and .300/.360/.480. Alonso has the clear edge overall, but Frazier has more power upside.

kaldaniels
08-29-2011, 08:11 PM
Alonso sure seemed confident and comfortable about the 3B move during the pre-game interview. Fingers crossed.

dougdirt
08-29-2011, 08:12 PM
They walked a similar amount in the minors Rick, but in terms of pure plate discipline, I don't think the two are nearly as close as their walk rates suggest. Frazier has solid plate discipline. Alonso has borderline outstanding plate discipline.

Joseph
08-29-2011, 11:07 PM
How'd he look tonight?

Stephenk29
08-29-2011, 11:21 PM
How'd he look tonight?

After watching him take the pre-game groundballs I became quite scared. I was in and out of attention during the actual game, can't comment there.

KronoRed
08-29-2011, 11:45 PM
How'd he look tonight?

Well, he knows how to stand there.

11larkin11
08-29-2011, 11:46 PM
After watching him take the pre-game groundballs I became quite scared. I was in and out of attention during the actual game, can't comment there.

I thought the same thing. Then, I thought, these are the same easy groundballs he'd be taking at first. So I'm not really worried about ESPN cameras catching him bobble two groundballs. This isn't an outfielder learning to take groundballs, its going from one corner to the other, albeit a much tougher corner. I really would like to see how he comes in on balls and his throws. Thats what I care about.

Big Klu
08-30-2011, 12:15 AM
How'd he look tonight?

No balls hit to him tonight. Zero chances in nine innings. I guess he didn't embarrass himself.

757690
08-30-2011, 12:46 AM
How'd he look tonight?

He was literally flawless at 3B tonight.

I don't think Scott Rolen could have played a better 3B tonight than Alonso did. In fact, I don't think Brooks Robinson could have played a better 3B. :)

RedLegsToday
08-30-2011, 09:10 AM
He was literally flawless at 3B tonight.

I don't think Scott Rolen could have played a better 3B tonight than Alonso did. In fact, I don't think Brooks Robinson could have played a better 3B. :)

I was at the, sitting in 417 (pretty much looking right at 3rd base). No chances. I can't believe Victorino and/or Utley didn't try to test him with a bunt. The did go back on a little flare pop up that he would have had, except Renteria called him off and took it. I have no problem with him playing third if they aren't going to hit it to him. :D

mdccclxix
08-30-2011, 11:52 AM
I was thinking about Alonso at 3b vs LF...if he misses a ball at 3b, it's most likely a single. If he misses a ball in LF, it's more likely to be a double or triple. We'll see if his arm to 1st is a problem, but it's possible he could do less damage at 3rd than LF.

_Sir_Charles_
08-30-2011, 01:07 PM
I was thinking about Alonso at 3b vs LF...if he misses a ball at 3b, it's most likely a single. If he misses a ball in LF, it's more likely to be a double or triple. We'll see if his arm to 1st is a problem, but it's possible he could do less damage at 3rd than LF.

I see where you're going with this...but it's still kind of a depressing way to look at a prospects' outlook. I think this is where he'll do the least harm...:(

Bumstead
08-30-2011, 01:12 PM
I see where you're going with this...but it's still kind of a depressing way to look at a prospects' outlook. I think this is where he'll do the least harm...:(

I don't see where he's going with this...He played 4 games in LF (3 in Wrigley)...to make a decision that Alonso has no future in LF based on that small of a sample size is a decision made by a small minded man with a short term outlook for a team with a long term outlook...it's comical really.

Bum

_Sir_Charles_
08-30-2011, 01:23 PM
I don't see where he's going with this...He played 4 games in LF (3 in Wrigley)...to make a decision that Alonso has no future in LF based on that small of a sample size is a decision made by a small minded man with a short term outlook for a team with a long term outlook...it's comical really.

Bum

They haven't made a decision on Yonder in LF for the long term...only the short term. Nobody was saying he's got no "future" in lf...it's just that right now...he's not a left fielder...in the PRESENT. Sure, we can debate whether of not he should've gotten a longer look...but the bottom line is that Dusty & Walt saw enough and it was worse than the scouting report they got from AAA...substantially. And I'd also bet that they weren't basing this assessment only on the plays during the game but also on his performance during practice. I'm sure both Dusty and Walt listen to their scouts and their minor league guys, but at the end of the day, they have to trust their OWN judgment on the kid. And that verdict was that he's simply not ready defensively for the outfield. And to be completely honest, I can't see where they'd be wrong in that assessment. Can you? Can anybody here argue that he didn't look like anything other than a butcher in left field? I sure can't. So, instead of sending him back to AAA, they switch to plan b. Let's continue to get him some AB's as a pinch hitter, and let's let him workout at third...and where better to do that than in Cincy where Scott Rolen can mentor him. Heck, Rolen didn't have anything ELSE to do right then. Sending him back to AAA right now served ZERO purpose. He's got better instructors here in Cincy and he doesn't need more AB's against AAA pitching.

This winter, he can work more on either 3rd or LF and then hone his skills even more in ST. Then we'll see where we're at. But 1B is not happening. They are NOT going to ask Votto to move and Joey isn't going to offer to move. Not when the kid hasn't proved anything as of yet. Let's see if he can hack it at 3rd or LF first. (LF has proved to be a non-option currently...but that may change)

mdccclxix
08-30-2011, 01:25 PM
I don't see where he's going with this...He played 4 games in LF (3 in Wrigley)...to make a decision that Alonso has no future in LF based on that small of a sample size is a decision made by a small minded man with a short term outlook for a team with a long term outlook...it's comical really.

Bum

Alonso's upside is as a Carlos Lee type defender out there. No thanks. It's Dusty's team, which has as many young players as you'll find in MLB, (including one that skipped the minors entirely, don't tell me he's absent from the long term mindset) and he fortunately values defense. These prospects are learning that. Believe me, it's not Dusty's problem that Alonso, Sappelt and Frazier can't crack the starting lineup more frequently. And it's a good thing the Reds aren't just telling their veterans to just pack up and go home, they might not get anyone else to sign here.

Bumstead
08-30-2011, 01:46 PM
Alonso's upside is as a Carlos Lee type defender out there. No thanks. It's Dusty's team, which has as many young players as you'll find in MLB, (including one that skipped the minors entirely, don't tell me he's absent from the long term mindset) and he fortunately values defense. These prospects are learning that. Believe me, it's not Dusty's problem that Alonso, Sappelt and Frazier can't crack the starting lineup more frequently. And it's a good thing the Reds aren't just telling their veterans to just pack up and go home, they might not get anyone else to sign here.

Last I checked Dusty filled out the lineup card...so it is Dusty that is keeping these players out of the lineup. What? No more Lewis' or Cairo's? Holy Crap! Play them everyday! I like Cairo, but he's a utility guy at best (and he knows it) and Lewis is just a 5th OF on mediocre teams. To play them and think one has a better chance to win with them over Sappelt, Frazier and/or Alonso is comical. Dusty favors defense huh? Does the word "Gomes" mean anything to you? Renterria? Hell, Lewis, Cairo? Defensive wizards they are not, but yeah, they are veterans and Dusty be damned if he would sit mediocre veterans for young guys with 3 times the potential in a season where the Reds are challenging for nothing (beating the cubs...again).

You are all right, Dusty is a genius and definitely a long term thinker...er, not.

Bum

_Sir_Charles_
08-30-2011, 02:10 PM
I like seeing the young kids play just as much as the next guy. But the amount of complaining going on here lately is a bit nuts IMO. Heck, why not bench all the starters and play rookies 100% of the time. I mean we're out of it, right? We've got to plan for next year, right? (yes, that was sarcasm)

Frazier is getting plenty of playing time. So is Sappelt. And Yonder's not exactly getting put to sleep either. If these rookies were fully, well-rounded players without holes in their games...they'd most likely be playing full time...and most likely would've been up a long time ago. But they're not. Frazier's struggled with the bat, so has Sappelt. Yonder's been an adventure with the glove. None of these guys are solid bats AND gloves like Bruce was when he came up. I don't think any of the three have done anything to deserve being considered starters on a MLB team....yet. And since they haven't, they're part-timers. Just like Cairo, Lewis, Heisey, Janish, Renteria, etc. Now if the argument was that Dusty needs to do a better job of evenly handing out the playing time...that I could buy. But there's no set formula for that. He's got to use his best judgement on the matchups and such. These kids will get their fair time in the lineup. But I don't think any of them are being treated unfairly or being forced to sit in favor of veterans. I think they're being treated just like every other part-time player on the club. Some play a bit more than others, but that will fluctuate.

Bumstead
08-30-2011, 02:28 PM
I like seeing the young kids play just as much as the next guy. But the amount of complaining going on here lately is a bit nuts IMO. Heck, why not bench all the starters and play rookies 100% of the time. I mean we're out of it, right? We've got to plan for next year, right? (yes, that was sarcasm)

Frazier is getting plenty of playing time. So is Sappelt. And Yonder's not exactly getting put to sleep either. If these rookies were fully, well-rounded players without holes in their games...they'd most likely be playing full time...and most likely would've been up a long time ago. But they're not. Frazier's struggled with the bat, so has Sappelt. Yonder's been an adventure with the glove. None of these guys are solid bats AND gloves like Bruce was when he came up. I don't think any of the three have done anything to deserve being considered starters on a MLB team....yet. And since they haven't,they're part-timers. Just like Cairo, Lewis, Heisey, Janish, Renteria, etc. Now if the argument was that Dusty needs to do a better job of evenly handing out the playing time...that I could buy. But there's no set formula for that. He's got to use his best judgement on the matchups and such. These kids will get their fair time in the lineup. But I don't think any of them are being treated unfairly or being forced to sit in favor of veterans. I think they're being treated just like every other part-time player on the club. Some play a bit more than others, but that will fluctuate.

I live up here in cubs country and I can tell you from watching Dusty here and in SF that what you are saying, with Dusty as a manager, is completely false. If Neifi Perez were on the Reds, he would play everyday, regardless of the fact that he was one of the worst players to ever play in MLB.

In reference to the "bolded" names, outside of Heisey (yet to be determined) those guys have earned part time status by showing through their playing time that they aren't good enough to be full time players at this point in their careers. The team is .500 with them; I don't think the Reds would be worse playing the younger players most of the time (clearly the mediocre veterans should be mixed in now and then); personally I think they would be better. Keep drinking Dusty's Kool-Aid, I just hope the upper management (Bob) isn't drinking it.

Bum

osuceltic
08-30-2011, 02:36 PM
I like seeing the young kids play just as much as the next guy. But the amount of complaining going on here lately is a bit nuts IMO. Heck, why not bench all the starters and play rookies 100% of the time. I mean we're out of it, right? We've got to plan for next year, right? (yes, that was sarcasm)

Frazier is getting plenty of playing time. So is Sappelt. And Yonder's not exactly getting put to sleep either. If these rookies were fully, well-rounded players without holes in their games...they'd most likely be playing full time...and most likely would've been up a long time ago. But they're not. Frazier's struggled with the bat, so has Sappelt. Yonder's been an adventure with the glove. None of these guys are solid bats AND gloves like Bruce was when he came up. I don't think any of the three have done anything to deserve being considered starters on a MLB team....yet. And since they haven't, they're part-timers. Just like Cairo, Lewis, Heisey, Janish, Renteria, etc. Now if the argument was that Dusty needs to do a better job of evenly handing out the playing time...that I could buy. But there's no set formula for that. He's got to use his best judgement on the matchups and such. These kids will get their fair time in the lineup. But I don't think any of them are being treated unfairly or being forced to sit in favor of veterans. I think they're being treated just like every other part-time player on the club. Some play a bit more than others, but that will fluctuate.

Bingo. The only young player who looks like a big league regular is Alonso and he plays the same position as the reigning MVP. I'd suggest most of the board just follow Louisville, but then they'd be crying for the next big thing from AA.

PuffyPig
08-30-2011, 02:56 PM
Play them everyday! I like Cairo, but he's a utility guy at best (and he knows it) and Lewis is just a 5th OF on mediocre teams. To play them and think one has a better chance to win with them over Sappelt, Frazier and/or Alonso is comical.


You think that, against a RH pitcher, Sappelt gives us a better chance to win than Lewis?

Play Sappelt due to "going forward", but Sapplet has shown virtually nothing so far to suggest he gives us a better chance to win today. It's certainly not "comical" to suggest this.

Bumstead
08-30-2011, 03:01 PM
You think that, against a RH pitcher, Sappelt gives us a better chance to win than Lewis?

Play Sappelt due to "going forward", but Sapplet has shown virtually nothing so far to suggest he gives us a better chance to win today. It's certainly not "comical" to suggest this.

LF Options: Lewis (5th OF on mediocre team...Reds? Cubs?), Frazier, Sappelt, Alonso.

Yeah, it is "comical," I would play Alonso myself, but would rather see any of the 3 play instead of Lewis. I have seen enough in that regard to know he isn't helping the Reds win anytime soon.

Bum

REDREAD
08-30-2011, 03:47 PM
He was literally flawless at 3B tonight.

I don't think Scott Rolen could have played a better 3B tonight than Alonso did. In fact, I don't think Brooks Robinson could have played a better 3B. :)

:lol:

Maybe the Reds are genius after all ;)

Ron Madden
08-30-2011, 03:57 PM
Tonight's lineup 8-30-11 Cairo is @ 3B hitting 5TH. Lewis in LF hitting 7TH.

Always Red
08-30-2011, 04:07 PM
Tonight's lineup 8-30-11 Cairo is @ 3B hitting 5TH. Lewis in LF hitting 7TH.

I smell a Halladay shutout.

Having said that, watch the Reds score about 8 runs tonight. :lol:

_Sir_Charles_
08-30-2011, 04:36 PM
I live up here in cubs country and I can tell you from watching Dusty here and in SF that what you are saying, with Dusty as a manager, is completely false. If Neifi Perez were on the Reds, he would play everyday, regardless of the fact that he was one of the worst players to ever play in MLB.

In reference to the "bolded" names, outside of Heisey (yet to be determined) those guys have earned part time status by showing through their playing time that they aren't good enough to be full time players at this point in their careers. The team is .500 with them; I don't think the Reds would be worse playing the younger players most of the time (clearly the mediocre veterans should be mixed in now and then); personally I think they would be better. Keep drinking Dusty's Kool-Aid, I just hope the upper management (Bob) isn't drinking it.

Bum

I'm not drinking anybody's kool-aid. I'm simply stating my opinion. Just because it differs from yours doesn't mean mine is wrong or that I'm some sort of Dusty fan-boy. I agree with you in the fact that those guys have earned the role of part time players due to not being productive enough to warrant full time positions. But regardless of your wishes and hopes for the future, Heisey, Alonso, Frazier & Sappelt have not earned anything beyond part-time players either. Sure, they're still young and have POTENTIAL...but during their playing time here with the Reds, they have yet to step up and show that they deserve to be full-time players. Yes, Alonso has hit. But his defense has been such a train wreck that it's crippled his ability to play regularly outside of first base. And if somebody here thinks that they're going to sit Votto in order to get Yonder more AB's...they're deluding themselves. Prospects are great...but producing at the AAA level does not give them automatic starting positions at the MLB level. They have to work their way into that gig just like the rest of the players do.

Now, would the Reds be a better team if the kids were playing more? Maybe. Frazier's hit a decent number of dingers....but his average is pretty pitiful. Sappelt is doing exactly what he should NOT do to be a leadoff hitter....he's not hitting, walking or getting on base. Yonder's swinging a great bat...but he's a liability with the glove...this shoves him into the pinch-hitter role for the most part. I just don't see where any of them are showing themselves worthy of a starting spot right now.

_Sir_Charles_
08-30-2011, 04:47 PM
LF Options: Lewis (5th OF on mediocre team...Reds? Cubs?), Frazier, Sappelt, Alonso.

Yeah, it is "comical," I would play Alonso myself, but would rather see any of the 3 play instead of Lewis. I have seen enough in that regard to know he isn't helping the Reds win anytime soon.

Bum

Lewis .232/.324/.320/.644
Frazier .231/.294/.474/.768
Sappelt .234/.324/.281/.539
Alonso .412/.500/.765/1.265

They've all got their warts. For LF, Yonder is out of that equation for now due to his defense or lack thereof. Lewis, Frazier & Sappelt are all pretty much equal overall. Frazier has the most power of the 3, but he's also the worst defender of the 3 in left field. I'd say it's far from "comical". Personally, I'd rather see Sappelt out there most of the time...but he's certainly not earning more of an extended shot.

RedsManRick
08-30-2011, 04:54 PM
I like seeing the young kids play just as much as the next guy. But the amount of complaining going on here lately is a bit nuts IMO. Heck, why not bench all the starters and play rookies 100% of the time. I mean we're out of it, right? We've got to plan for next year, right? (yes, that was sarcasm)

Frazier is getting plenty of playing time. So is Sappelt. And Yonder's not exactly getting put to sleep either. If these rookies were fully, well-rounded players without holes in their games...they'd most likely be playing full time...and most likely would've been up a long time ago. But they're not. Frazier's struggled with the bat, so has Sappelt. Yonder's been an adventure with the glove. None of these guys are solid bats AND gloves like Bruce was when he came up. I don't think any of the three have done anything to deserve being considered starters on a MLB team....yet. And since they haven't, they're part-timers. Just like Cairo, Lewis, Heisey, Janish, Renteria, etc. Now if the argument was that Dusty needs to do a better job of evenly handing out the playing time...that I could buy. But there's no set formula for that. He's got to use his best judgement on the matchups and such. These kids will get their fair time in the lineup. But I don't think any of them are being treated unfairly or being forced to sit in favor of veterans. I think they're being treated just like every other part-time player on the club. Some play a bit more than others, but that will fluctuate.

You cannot judge these guys' ability based on how they've played in 2 weeks worth of games -- not when we have years of knowledge about them to draw upon. Sure, we know Alfonso isn't a good defender. But clearly the Reds believed he was better than he showed in limited opportunity or they wouldn't have tried it all. Sappelt has not performed at the plate so far, but he is a plus defender in LF and we have every reason to believe he'll be a good hitter in the majors. The short answer is, if playing time decisions are being made based on an extremely limited sample of major league performance, that is short-sighted.

Even if the question is who gives us the best chance to win today, there's an argument to be made for the young guys. It's not like we're benching all-stars here. It's a question of prospects who have performed well in AAA vs. veteran backups who are known to be below average.

I just don't see any consistent logic in these seemingly random spot starts other than some sort of vague "just getting their feet wet".

Will playing Cairo/Lewis/Renteria result in more wins this year? To what extent does that matter? My answers: Maybe, maybe not & very little. An extra win or two is basically meaningless.

Will playing Cairo/Lewis/Renteria result in a better understanding of how to construct the 2012 team? To what extent does that matter? My answers: Certainly not. A fair bit. LF in particular is a giant question mark at the moment and looks to be one for 2012 as well. Add in the leadoff question and the case for giving Sappelt a more thorough look makes all the more sense.

Will benching Alonso/Frazier/Sappelt help them improve upon their weaknesses so that they perform better in their next opportunity? My answer: I seriously doubt it. Certainly their skills won't improve by not playing. I could see an argument about not handing them jobs to keep them hungry, but is that really a problem? Is Todd Frazier going to loaf if he's playing everyday? Are we really worried about them getting spoiled and lazy? I think spending the bulk of the year in AAA sent a pretty clear message that you have to earn your opportunity. The question is whether your AAA performance and the team's evaluation of your skills only gets you in the door or whether it can merit an extended look -- not a guaranteed job, mind you -- just a trial period that includes regular playing time.

The only reasons not to play those guys every day, as far as I can tell are:

Maybe winning more games
Keeping the vets happy / Clubhouse management


And those don't strike me as compelling reasons. Again, it's not like we'd be benching guys who have been starters all year and have a legitimate expectation to be "the guy". They all know they're role players. In the end, it's just a handful of games. It probably doesn't make much of a difference in the long run. But it's just one more of those marginal things, the extra 2%, that Dusty is letting go.

bucksfan2
08-30-2011, 05:01 PM
I'm not drinking anybody's kool-aid. I'm simply stating my opinion. Just because it differs from yours doesn't mean mine is wrong or that I'm some sort of Dusty fan-boy. I agree with you in the fact that those guys have earned the role of part time players due to not being productive enough to warrant full time positions. But regardless of your wishes and hopes for the future, Heisey, Alonso, Frazier & Sappelt have not earned anything beyond part-time players either. Sure, they're still young and have POTENTIAL...but during their playing time here with the Reds, they have yet to step up and show that they deserve to be full-time players. Yes, Alonso has hit. But his defense has been such a train wreck that it's crippled his ability to play regularly outside of first base. And if somebody here thinks that they're going to sit Votto in order to get Yonder more AB's...they're deluding themselves. Prospects are great...but producing at the AAA level does not give them automatic starting positions at the MLB level. They have to work their way into that gig just like the rest of the players do.

Now, would the Reds be a better team if the kids were playing more? Maybe. Frazier's hit a decent number of dingers....but his average is pretty pitiful. Sappelt is doing exactly what he should NOT do to be a leadoff hitter....he's not hitting, walking or getting on base. Yonder's swinging a great bat...but he's a liability with the glove...this shoves him into the pinch-hitter role for the most part. I just don't see where any of them are showing themselves worthy of a starting spot right now.

I agree with this. I think that the Dusty "vet love" is overplayed by his detractors 100%. As a hardcore Reds fan I want to see Sappelt and Heisey and Alonso and Frazier. But as to right now none them have played their way into the every day lineup. I don't have an issue with any manager who wants a young player to play themselves into the every day lineup without just handing it to them.

dougdirt
08-30-2011, 05:04 PM
I agree with this. I think that the Dusty "vet love" is overplayed by his detractors 100%. As a hardcore Reds fan I want to see Sappelt and Heisey and Alonso and Frazier. But as to right now none them have played their way into the every day lineup. I don't have an issue with any manager who wants a young player to play themselves into the every day lineup without just handing it to them.

At the same time, have Cairo or Lewis played their way into the line up? Don't get me wrong, I have absolutely no problem with either being on the team. I just think both are back ups. Get them 1-2 starts per week.

_Sir_Charles_
08-30-2011, 05:25 PM
You cannot judge these guys' ability based on how they've played in 2 weeks worth of games -- not when we have years of knowledge about them to draw upon. Sure, we know Alfonso isn't a good defender. But clearly the Reds believed he was better than he showed in limited opportunity or they wouldn't have tried it all. Sappelt has not performed at the plate so far, but he is a plus defender in LF and we have every reason to believe he'll be a good hitter in the majors. The short answer is, if playing time decisions are being made based on an extremely limited sample of major league performance, that is short-sighted.

I agree. I was "trying" to say that they haven't shown the ability in the big AS OF YET that they can both hit AND field. Not a one of them. I think all 3 of them (4 if you count Hi-C) have the ability to step into that mold...but they're not there yet. At least not against MLB pitching. An the playing time decisions are being made based on winning the game that day. These kids will all get some playing time this season to give Dusty some one-on-one observation time of his own instead of relying totally on the reports from others. Next season should be more of a full "shot" for these guys.


Even if the question is who gives us the best chance to win today, there's an argument to be made for the young guys. It's not like we're benching all-stars here. It's a question of prospects who have performed well in AAA vs. veteran backups who are known to be below average.

Well, from my perspective, it looks like Dusty is trying to get the kids AND the vets playing time. Since none of them have stepped up and TOOK the spot for themselves...he's dishing out the starts based on matchups it seems. Is it right or wrong? I don't know. But just because the kids are getting limited playing time now doesn't mean that they're being shortsighted or putting them to sleep. It just means that when they DO get a chance...they need to take advantage of it and force Dusty's hand to play them MORE. People are acting like this is all Dusty's fault...but from my point of view, it's the fault of the players for not grabbing the brass ring when it's in front of them.


I just don't see any consistent logic in these seemingly random spot starts other than some sort of vague "just getting their feet wet".

Will playing Cairo/Lewis/Renteria result in more wins this year? To what extent does that matter? My answers: Maybe, maybe not & very little. An extra win or two is basically meaningless.

I agree. But since none of them have stepped up...I don't think it would be fair to play the kids and put the vets to sleep either...do you? Dusty wants to try to keep everybody somewhat happy.


Will playing Cairo/Lewis/Renteria result in a better understanding of how to construct the 2012 team? To what extent does that matter? My answers: Certainly not. A fair bit. LF in particular is a giant question mark at the moment and looks to be one for 2012 as well. Add in the leadoff question and the case for giving Sappelt a more thorough look makes all the more sense.

Again, I agree with you...but Dusty's not looking towards 2012 right now...he's playing for the game of Aug. 30th. Just like he SHOULD be. I mean what about 2013? Should we sit Phillips because he's not going to be a fixture in 2013? You can't always look to the future....the present will pass you by. IMO they're doing it the right way. Dusty is looking at the present...it's WALT'S job to look towards the future.


Will benching Alonso/Frazier/Sappelt help them improve upon their weaknesses so that they perform better in their next opportunity? My answer: I seriously doubt it. Certainly their skills won't improve by not playing. I could see an argument about not handing them jobs to keep them hungry, but is that really a problem? Is Todd Frazier going to loaf if he's playing everyday? Are we really worried about them getting spoiled and lazy? I think spending the bulk of the year in AAA sent a pretty clear message that you have to earn your opportunity. The question is whether your AAA performance and the team's evaluation of your skills only gets you in the door or whether it can merit an extended look -- not a guaranteed job, mind you -- just a trial period that includes regular playing time.

No, of course benching them won't improve their weaknesses. But being with the Reds and being with the coaches will help them in many aspects. Getting the opportunity to face MLB pitching will help them in the future. Giving Dusty & the coaches the opportunity to see them play in the field and during practice will help them to see what they need to work on to prepare them for the future.


The only reasons not to play those guys every day, as far as I can tell are:

Maybe winning more games
Keeping the vets happy / Clubhouse management


And those don't strike me as compelling reasons. Again, it's not like we'd be benching guys who have been starters all year and have a legitimate expectation to be "the guy". They all know they're role players. In the end, it's just a handful of games. It probably doesn't make much of a difference in the long run. But it's just one more of those marginal things, the extra 2%, that Dusty is letting go.

Not only do I think those are compelling reasons, I think they're very VALID reasons for playing both the kids and the vets. Cairo will be back next year. Do you want to make him a non-factor next season by putting him to sleep this season? Heck, Lewis might be back as well. If Yonder is clearly not ready to play the outfield, do you really want to kill what limited confidence he may have by setting the 'boo birds' on him at the MLB level? Sappelt is struggling so badly on offense right now, not playing him might be the best thing for him in terms of his future development. This short stint in the bigs could also hurt his confidence moving forward. When a kid is in a slump, sometimes you need to shake things up to snap him out of it or he may dig himself into an even deeper hole. Some people on here seem to be looking at these kids in a sort of a vacuum. There's a bigger picture here and several more people involved than just those 3 kids. This is a team game and that needs to be kept in the forefront of our minds. You can't give one of your children a treat and ignore the rest of them. At some point in time you've got to give them all a treat or you're going to have a mutiny on your hands. Spread the love around. :O)

_Sir_Charles_
08-30-2011, 05:30 PM
At the same time, have Cairo or Lewis played their way into the line up? Don't get me wrong, I have absolutely no problem with either being on the team. I just think both are back ups. Get them 1-2 starts per week.

No, they haven't either. Which is why they're all getting some starts. Is it a bit unbalanced? Sure. But there are more factors involved than just saying okay you each get 2 starts per week. Because while all that is going on, Dusty's still trying to get the team W's. So matchups play a big role too. And that will make the starts uneven. But pinch hitting, defensive subs and such will help even things out a bit. Yonder's more suited to PH'ing due to his defensive problems, Sappelt's more suited to defensive subbing due to his outstanding range, Frazier is easier to fit into starting roles due to his versatility, etc.

bucksfan2
08-30-2011, 05:46 PM
At the same time, have Cairo or Lewis played their way into the line up? Don't get me wrong, I have absolutely no problem with either being on the team. I just think both are back ups. Get them 1-2 starts per week.

Cairo has shown the ability to be productive in the role he is playing right now. I have absolutely no issue with Cairo getting 3-4 starts per week.

As for Lewis in a prefect world he doesn't shouldn't be getting as many starts as he is, but, no one is proving they deserve more. When Sappelt or Frazier prove they are an upgrade over Lewis then they will get the starts. As of now they are getting some starts and have yet to prove that they deserve more.

dougdirt
08-30-2011, 07:29 PM
No, they haven't either. Which is why they're all getting some starts. Is it a bit unbalanced? Sure. But there are more factors involved than just saying okay you each get 2 starts per week. Because while all that is going on, Dusty's still trying to get the team W's. So matchups play a big role too. And that will make the starts uneven. But pinch hitting, defensive subs and such will help even things out a bit. Yonder's more suited to PH'ing due to his defensive problems, Sappelt's more suited to defensive subbing due to his outstanding range, Frazier is easier to fit into starting roles due to his versatility, etc.
I guess my point is that guys in their mid 30's shouldn't ever play their ways into a line up. You know what they are at that point in time.

_Sir_Charles_
08-30-2011, 07:32 PM
I guess my point is that guys in their mid 30's shouldn't ever play their ways into a line up. You know what they are at that point in time.

That's a fair point. I guess I just look at it like if all of these guys are currently playing like part-timers then why not treat them all as such until someone steps out of that role and takes a step forward. If we're going to sit the vets in favor of the rook's...we might as well release the vets so that they can play somewhere else. If they're on the roster, Dusty's going to try to play everybody as equally as possible considering their situation. Unfortunately, all these guys are in the same situation currently.

757690
08-30-2011, 07:51 PM
I don't know why we are assuming that playing everyday is what's best for the young guys. Many feel it's best to ease them into the MLB game, to let them get acclimated in their first few months. I don't know enough about player development to take a side on this issue, so I would love to hear what others who do know more have to say on this.

Big Klu
08-30-2011, 08:18 PM
I guess my point is that guys in their mid 30's shouldn't ever play their ways into a line up. You know what they are at that point in time.

http://magnetowasright.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/logan1.jpg

mth123
08-30-2011, 09:36 PM
Lewis .232/.324/.320/.644
Frazier .231/.294/.474/.768
Sappelt .234/.324/.281/.539
Alonso .412/.500/.765/1.265

They've all got their warts. For LF, Yonder is out of that equation for now due to his defense or lack thereof. Lewis, Frazier & Sappelt are all pretty much equal overall. Frazier has the most power of the 3, but he's also the worst defender of the 3 in left field. I'd say it's far from "comical". Personally, I'd rather see Sappelt out there most of the time...but he's certainly not earning more of an extended shot.

I'm not going to get into this entire debate, but it took the Reds bringing up Yonder and playing him out of position for Fred Lewis to be a better defender than anyone on this year's roster. Gomes was better, Sappelt is tons better and Frazier is better. Fred Lewis is not, I repeat not, a decent defiensive OF.

Lewis is a major league player who has his uses in the right situation, but Cinconnati is not that situation. When the seaon started, there was some promise in a Lewis/Gomes iron glove platoon, but that ship has sailed. The Reds have a number of younger players who've got another season of minor league experience under their belt and who call the OF home. There is no longer a need for a stopgap OF of the Lewis variety. Frazier, Sappelt, sometimes Alonso and soon Heisey and Phipps should all get as many ABs as possible (I'd sit Stubbs 3 or 4 days a week to give these guys a look). Lewis should be the guy to go to make room for Mesoraco on the roster. It not only opens the spot on the roster, but thins the crowd looking for PT in the OF.

While we're at it, I'd like to see Frazier get a few starts at SS. I don't want him playing 2 or 3 days in a row there, but the Reds roster would look a lot better in 2012 if Frazier could be the back-up SS as well as other super sub duties. The spot could be created by removing Janish from the 25 man roster. Janish is the SS version of Corky Miller IMO. A guy to stash at AAA and call him up to field the position when the starter is hurt. Frazier could be on the 25 getting a start when Cozart needs rest or gets dinged up. If Cozart was to miss significant time, Janish (or some other AAAA defense first vet) would be added to the roster as the starter while Frazier's role remains the same as it was before the injury.

Blitz Dorsey
08-31-2011, 02:55 AM
I have never been a "Dusty basher" but he sure does something every week that makes me understand where those fans are coming from. (The ones that want him gone.) Why in the world would they finally give Alonso a start at third -- in a game where he didn't have any chances to make a defensive play -- and then sit him on the bench the following game? Play Alonso almost every day the rest of the year and see what happens. The Reds are eliminated from playoff contention and they need to find out what they have in Alonso. What about this is so complicated for Dusty? I am slowly turning from a Dusty supporter to a Dusty-needs-to-go guy. (Actually, I want to see Dusty have one more crack at this team next year, I'm just saying he does stuff all the time that is unwise. Like the unfortunate times Janish has to play ... and Dusty bats him in the two hole. Nothing like batting the worst hitter in MLB in the two hole.)

I've always used a phrase about the NFL football team that plays in Cincinnati. "Only the Bengals." As in "Only the Bengals would have done something that stupid." Or "Only the Bengals would hold on to Carson Palmer instead of trade him for a good draft pick." "Only the Bengals..."

"Only Dusty."

Ron Madden
08-31-2011, 04:17 AM
You cannot judge these guys' ability based on how they've played in 2 weeks worth of games -- not when we have years of knowledge about them to draw upon. Sure, we know Alfonso isn't a good defender. But clearly the Reds believed he was better than he showed in limited opportunity or they wouldn't have tried it all. Sappelt has not performed at the plate so far, but he is a plus defender in LF and we have every reason to believe he'll be a good hitter in the majors. The short answer is, if playing time decisions are being made based on an extremely limited sample of major league performance, that is short-sighted.

Even if the question is who gives us the best chance to win today, there's an argument to be made for the young guys. It's not like we're benching all-stars here. It's a question of prospects who have performed well in AAA vs. veteran backups who are known to be below average.

I just don't see any consistent logic in these seemingly random spot starts other than some sort of vague "just getting their feet wet".

Will playing Cairo/Lewis/Renteria result in more wins this year? To what extent does that matter? My answers: Maybe, maybe not & very little. An extra win or two is basically meaningless.

Will playing Cairo/Lewis/Renteria result in a better understanding of how to construct the 2012 team? To what extent does that matter? My answers: Certainly not. A fair bit. LF in particular is a giant question mark at the moment and looks to be one for 2012 as well. Add in the leadoff question and the case for giving Sappelt a more thorough look makes all the more sense.

Will benching Alonso/Frazier/Sappelt help them improve upon their weaknesses so that they perform better in their next opportunity? My answer: I seriously doubt it. Certainly their skills won't improve by not playing. I could see an argument about not handing them jobs to keep them hungry, but is that really a problem? Is Todd Frazier going to loaf if he's playing everyday? Are we really worried about them getting spoiled and lazy? I think spending the bulk of the year in AAA sent a pretty clear message that you have to earn your opportunity. The question is whether your AAA performance and the team's evaluation of your skills only gets you in the door or whether it can merit an extended look -- not a guaranteed job, mind you -- just a trial period that includes regular playing time.

The only reasons not to play those guys every day, as far as I can tell are:

Maybe winning more games
Keeping the vets happy / Clubhouse management


And those don't strike me as compelling reasons. Again, it's not like we'd be benching guys who have been starters all year and have a legitimate expectation to be "the guy". They all know they're role players. In the end, it's just a handful of games. It probably doesn't make much of a difference in the long run. But it's just one more of those marginal things, the extra 2%, that Dusty is letting go.

I agree with each and every point RMR has makes here.

In my humble and honest opinion this is truth in a nutshell. :beerme:

Ron Madden
08-31-2011, 04:40 AM
The way I see it Cairo and Lewis have already established themselves over the years as below league average players who can help a team coming off the bench.

Alonso, Sappelt and Frazier haven't had the chance to play for a consistent enough amount of time for anyone to make any declaration that they have failed to step up.

.

Ron Madden
08-31-2011, 05:29 AM
Ya gotta read this to believe it.

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2011/08/30/wheres-alonso/

mth123
08-31-2011, 05:43 AM
Ya gotta read this to believe it.

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2011/08/30/wheres-alonso/

Sounds to me like they know he can't really play there and are just trying to pick some spots to get him some ABs until something is done in the offseason to move either Alonso or Votto.

He's not geting a serious audition there IMO.

oneupper
08-31-2011, 07:41 AM
Sounds to me like they know he can't really play there and are just trying to pick some spots to get him some ABs until something is done in the offseason to move either Alonso or Votto.

He's not geting a serious audition there IMO.

Baker's main goal as a manager is to not be embarrassed. That's why he sticks to his ways and never makes a zwischenzug.

This has little to do with what Alonso can actually go at third.

edabbs44
08-31-2011, 08:19 AM
I agree with each and every point RMR has makes here.

In my humble and honest opinion this is truth in a nutshell. :beerme:

I am responding to this post due to the difficulties of replying to a long post on a phone, but I disagree with 2 of RMR's points there;

1) We may need more than 2 weeks to determine exactly what a player can or cannot do, but managers, scouts and other FO personnel have to make those determinations, for the most part, before they get on the field. Everyone was screaming for Sappelt earlier this year like they were holding down Bryce Harper. He now gets a chance equivalent to roughly 10% of a season and provides a sample which is SoJ (South of Janish). the same thing happened last year while Cincy was idiotically starting Cabrera over Janish. Maybe these guys have an idea of who these players really are? Maybe they have a clue that, in the majors guys like Sappelt will not produce like they did in AA.

2) In the grand scheme a win or two here or there likely won't make much of a difference, but I think they are currently in a different situation than if we were talking about going from 72 to 74 wins. One thing you hear often are things about how a team hasn't had a winning record in x years or back to back winning seasons in y years. Back to back winning seasons would take some of the drink off of the past years of futility and at least get this team to some level of consistent success. Someone mentioned before that the youngsters aren't rotting away on the bench and I believe that to be true. The only one who is really forcing the FO's hand is Alonso and it is a shame that he has nowhere to play right now. I think that what they are doing is unorthodox but it does make sense. They need to showcase his bat since it is obvious that they need to move him this offseason. They can't bench Votto so they have to get creative. If he is going to single handedly lose games in the field, it will be difficult to play him there.

mdccclxix
08-31-2011, 10:34 AM
So Baker is trying to put Alonso in when the ball won’t be hit his way. That really doesn’t make ideal to determine how well he can play the position. You’d think the Reds would want him to get a tough test at third

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/201...wheres-alonso/

I'm sure Baker didn't plan for no balls to be hit to Alonso, first of all. Second of all, the way the media is jumping all over Dusty about this is so typical of them - trying to create hysteria. Mind you, Lance McAllister has notches he keeps on managers that "he has fired". He's an ego maniac and before long he wants to see if his opinions can force management to make moves. Anyway, I ask Lance and the other Dusty bashers on this topic who find it "disgusting", "inexcusable", "sad", "incompetent", is it possible, despite the hours you do spend following the Reds, that people even closer to the situation, who have seen Alonso in practice over the last 4 weeks, have talked with Alonso himself, have talked with scouts, with baseball people, actually know it's worse than you think. I mean, if it was a bad idea not to try him there earlier in the minors, what makes it a bad idea to tread lightly with the idea in the highest level of baseball on the planet? Don't let the hysteria color your perception.

Danny Serafini
08-31-2011, 11:26 AM
Ya gotta read this to believe it.

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2011/08/30/wheres-alonso/

I don't have any problem with it. It makes a lot more sense to try and ease him into the spot than to throw him into a game where they expect him to get hammered out there.

cumberlandreds
08-31-2011, 11:33 AM
Ya gotta read this to believe it.

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2011/08/30/wheres-alonso/ (http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2011/08/30/wheres-alonso/)

I read it and couldn't believe it either. All Dusty is doing is trying to justify not playing Alonso. You could have the ultimate fly ball pitcher going and still could give up a bunch of ground balls to third. It was just the luck of the draw that Alonso didn't have any balls hit his way. How many times has that ever happened that a 3rd baseman doesn't have one ball hit in his direction? IMO, Baker just sounds foolish making that statement and its just erodes my confidence in him that much more.

Blitz Dorsey
08-31-2011, 11:35 AM
I'm sure Baker didn't plan for no balls to be hit to Alonso, first of all. Second of all, the way the media is jumping all over Dusty about this is so typical of them - trying to create hysteria. Mind you, Lance McAllister has notches he keeps on managers that "he has fired". He's an ego maniac and before long he wants to see if his opinions can force management to make moves. Anyway, I ask Lance and the other Dusty bashers on this topic who find it "disgusting", "inexcusable", "sad", "incompetent", is it possible, despite the hours you do spend following the Reds, that people even closer to the situation, who have seen Alonso in practice over the last 4 weeks, have talked with Alonso himself, have talked with scouts, with baseball people, actually know it's worse than you think. I mean, if it was a bad idea not to try him there earlier in the minors, what makes it a bad idea to tread lightly with the idea in the highest level of baseball on the planet? Don't let the hysteria color your perception.

What is the downside though? In case you haven't noticed, the Reds have been eliminated from playoff contention (unless you think they're going to go undefeated the rest of the way). So, even is Alonso is bad at third, please explain the downside of playing him there for the rest of the season. Once you're out of the playoffs, you better get ready for next season. And that includes finding out exactly what you've got out of a top-10 overall draft pick. Again, there is NO downside to playing Alonso everyday the rest of the season. McAllister is exactly right here. (And I'm no Dusty basher.) Dusty needs to not be concerned about massaging a 37-year-old player's ego right now. No one cares if Miguel Cairo doesn't play again this season. He's a pro's pro, but the Reds are out of the race. People want to see Alonso play. And those "people" should include the manager, GM ... the guys actually running the show.

lollipopcurve
08-31-2011, 11:38 AM
It will be very interesting to see what happens at 3B once Francisco is promoted. It's been pretty clear that Baker likes his potential.

Slyder
08-31-2011, 11:41 AM
It will be very interesting to see what happens at 3B once Francisco is promoted. It's been pretty clear that Baker likes his potential.

You know Dusty loves him some guys who don't clog the bases. I like Alonso's ceilling better than I do Francisco's if Alonso were remotely similar to Francisco at 3b I would stick with Alonso every day of the week and it's not even close in my eyes who has the better hitting style.

mdccclxix
08-31-2011, 11:49 AM
What is the downside though? In case you haven't noticed, the Reds have been eliminated from playoff contention (unless you think they're going to go undefeated the rest of the way). So, even is Alonso is bad at third, please explain the downside of playing him there for the rest of the season. Once you're out of the playoffs, you better get ready for next season. And that includes finding out exactly what you've got out of a top-10 overall draft pick. Again, there is NO downside to playing Alonso everyday the rest of the season. McAllister is exactly right here. (And I'm no Dusty basher.) Dusty needs to not be concerned about massaging a 37-year-old player's ego right now. No one cares if Miguel Cairo doesn't play again this season. He's a pro's pro, but the Reds are out of the race. People want to see Alonso play. And those "people" should include the manager, GM ... the guys actually running the show.

The fact they're even trying Alonso at 3b in the majors isn't enough? Dusty has to manage his players and manage this team to win games. I see not problem with limiting a players exposure to failure. What's Alonso going to learn from having a 3 error game or something of the like? What about a months worth of errors at 3b? What's that going to do to the team and the pitching staff? "Oh what the heck, live and let live, we're not playing for anything this year anyway." This team has to still play for pride and a strong finish.

REDREAD
08-31-2011, 11:51 AM
I guess my point is that guys in their mid 30's shouldn't ever play their ways into a line up. You know what they are at that point in time.

Not necessarily. Last spring, everyone thought Cairo was finished. Walt took a chance on him. Cairo played his way onto the team and has pretty much earned playing time. If there was a crystal ball that could've predicted how good Cairo was going to play, he would've been in greater demand.

The Reds need to decide if they want to bring Lewis back or not next year. I think he's arb eligible. It's easy to just say "Lewis is a 5th OF, who cares?" but the team still lacks depth in the OF. Sapplet is more likely to end up being the next Tavaras than the next Jay Bruce. That's not to say that I am giving up on him, but not all prospects pan out. Reds management clearly saw warts in Sappelt's game in spring training and sent him to AAA despite his good hitting in the spring. My guess is that Walt and Dusty do not want to be in a position where they are forced to rely on Sappelt next season. Heck, the Reds owe the rights to Sappelt next year.. They have to decide to spend the money on Lewis or not.

Chip R
08-31-2011, 11:52 AM
I'm sure Baker didn't plan for no balls to be hit to Alonso, first of all. Second of all, the way the media is jumping all over Dusty about this is so typical of them - trying to create hysteria. Mind you, Lance McAllister has notches he keeps on managers that "he has fired". He's an ego maniac and before long he wants to see if his opinions can force management to make moves. Anyway, I ask Lance and the other Dusty bashers on this topic who find it "disgusting", "inexcusable", "sad", "incompetent", is it possible, despite the hours you do spend following the Reds, that people even closer to the situation, who have seen Alonso in practice over the last 4 weeks, have talked with Alonso himself, have talked with scouts, with baseball people, actually know it's worse than you think. I mean, if it was a bad idea not to try him there earlier in the minors, what makes it a bad idea to tread lightly with the idea in the highest level of baseball on the planet? Don't let the hysteria color your perception.

Well said.

It appears that Dusty is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't in regards to Alonso. People complained about how Dusty started Alonso in Wrigley and Houston where LF is no picnic to play. What they don't take into account is that unless there's radical realingment, the Reds are going to play the majority of their road games in those two parks - along with Busch Stadium, Miller and PNC Parks. So why not give him a taste of what it's going to be like playing LF there? As for playing him at 3rd when he won't get a lot of ground balls, isn't Dusty's first priority to win games? He probably feels that if he can start Alonso at 3rd when he won't get too many ground balls, it gives the Reds a better chance to win. I think that's what we all want. Save the player development for the minor leagues. I suppose if Dusty has Alonso play 3rd when there will be a lot of ground balls hit his way and he boots a few, Dusty will be picking on him and not putting him in a position to succeed.

I'm not sure if the "Dusty hates young players" rap is fair. I'm sure any manager would have a problem with a player on his roster who is an unfinished product.

REDREAD
08-31-2011, 11:58 AM
Ya gotta read this to believe it.

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2011/08/30/wheres-alonso/

I actually think this is defensible.
Dusty is trying to get Alonso into the game, but easing him in.
Dusty doesn't want Alonso to have 7 errors in one game or a similiar disaster.
In an ideal world. Alonso starts off getting 3-4 chances per game to avoid a possible avalanche effect.

IslandRed
08-31-2011, 12:27 PM
Sounds to me like they know he can't really play there and are just trying to pick some spots to get him some ABs until something is done in the offseason to move either Alonso or Votto.

He's not geting a serious audition there IMO.

That's entirely possible. It would be disappointing, since the 1B>3B move is at least theoretically practical depending on the player's arm, but maybe that's what it is.

In any event, I do feel as if some people are trying to apply "small sample size" arguments to fielding in the same manner they apply it to hitting. It's not apples and oranges there, in my opinion.

We can watch any hitter over a sample of a few weeks, or even longer, and not be able to discern differences, and maybe get an outright misleading take.

But fielding-wise, at the major league level, 98% or more of a fielder's chances are expected to be made successfully. If we hit a bunch of balls at a fielder and he looks like he has no idea what he's doing on half of them, the probability of him being an adequate defender at that spot is very, very low.

It may take advanced metrics to parse and quantify the differences between two defenders, and it takes time to separate the reliable from the error-prone. But determining whether someone has the plausible ability to play a position in the first place is something the eyeball test is adequately suited for. We don't really need to see him flail around for half a season to know Votto isn't a shortstop, right?

Roy Tucker
08-31-2011, 01:11 PM
Dusty subscribes to Herm Edwards' "you play to win the game" theory.

So his modus operandi is just to put players out there who he thinks are the best and have earned the right to play and to win the games. Anything that goes contrary to that he has a hard time with.

So when it comes time to play a player who has been deemed to give a tryout at a position at, I think he tries to go along with it but it really goes contrary to all his managing tenets. Hence, we see Dusty seem conflicted about playing a guy.

Do we know who made the decision to play Alonso at 3B?

RedsManRick
08-31-2011, 01:28 PM
Well said.

It appears that Dusty is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't in regards to Alonso. People complained about how Dusty started Alonso in Wrigley and Houston where LF is no picnic to play.

Which people? As far as I can tell, there's a group of people who just want Alonso to be given an extended opportunity and a group of people who don't think he's got a prayer of working out at LF or 3B and don't care to see it tried at any length, if at all.

Sure, somebody is going to complain no matter what Dusty does. So maybe he should just do what's best for the Reds and ignore what the fans think about it.

It comes back to a few basic questions:
- Are the Reds serious about Alonso possibly moving to LF or 3B?
- If they are, what's the best way to accomplish that?

If the answer to question #1 is "no", then this is just a sideshow, which strikes me as quite silly. If the answer is "yes", then is the best to assess his readiness by playing him infrequently?

It seems to me that Dusty is treating this situation with kid gloves, like it's a bomb ready to go off. I can appreciate that these are real people involved, but at some point, you just have to let the players play and let the chits fall where they may. The Reds have wasted too much time already trying to have their cake and eat it too. Decisions need to be made and playing Cairo, Lewis and Renteria at the expense of giving young players playing time isn't going to help in either the short or long term.

For me, the team takes priority over the players. While I'm sure Cairo et. al might think it "unfair" if "unproven" rookies get playing time over them, that's life. What's best for the organization is figuring out what these young guys can do in the big leagues. And you simply cannot assess that in fits and starts. Making a guy who earned a promotion though his AAA play "earn" regular playing time in the majors without actually giving him a solid chunk of time to do so it is simply asking for luck to play a major role in your assessment. And when you're already out of the race and the players who you're playing instead are proven backups, all I can ask is 'to what end?" What is gained by playing Cairo instead of Alonso other than not hurting Cairo's feelings?

For me, it comes down Dusty wanting to win games and being extremely hesitant to do anything that he thinks lowers his team's chance to win that day's game. As we've all observed, he remains a player at heart and treats his players the way he'd like to be treated. In my opinion, he needs to be prioritizing the team's long term needs at this point -- he's just not willing to do it except for where it aligns with his existing desires.

757690
08-31-2011, 01:42 PM
- Are the Reds serious about Alonso possibly moving to LF or 3B?
- If they are, what's the best way to accomplish that?

If the answer to question #1 is "no", then this is just a sideshow, which strikes me as quite silly. If the answer is "yes", then is the best to assess his readiness by playing him infrequently?

The Reds aren't just trying to assess his readiness, they know he isn't ready, how could he be after just a few weeks of working on it on the side?

They are trying to get him ready to play 3B, while trying to see if he can play 3B. I thought it was a very shrewd move to have him play his first game at 3B on a day when he probably won't get many chances. This gets him used to being there in game conditions, and gets the butterflies out.

And I still don't understand why it's a given that the best way to develop these young guys is to play them everyday. There are around 30 games left, and I don't see how them playing in 20 more games is any worse to their development that playing in 30.

WMR
08-31-2011, 01:50 PM
I am responding to this post due to the difficulties of replying to a long post on a phone, but I disagree with 2 of RMR's points there;

1) We may need more than 2 weeks to determine exactly what a player can or cannot do, but managers, scouts and other FO personnel have to make those determinations, for the most part, before they get on the field. Everyone was screaming for Sappelt earlier this year like they were holding down Bryce Harper. He now gets a chance equivalent to roughly 10% of a season and provides a sample which is SoJ (South of Janish). the same thing happened last year while Cincy was idiotically starting Cabrera over Janish. Maybe these guys have an idea of who these players really are? Maybe they have a clue that, in the majors guys like Sappelt will not produce like they did in AA.

2) In the grand scheme a win or two here or there likely won't make much of a difference, but I think they are currently in a different situation than if we were talking about going from 72 to 74 wins. One thing you hear often are things about how a team hasn't had a winning record in x years or back to back winning seasons in y years. Back to back winning seasons would take some of the drink off of the past years of futility and at least get this team to some level of consistent success. Someone mentioned before that the youngsters aren't rotting away on the bench and I believe that to be true. The only one who is really forcing the FO's hand is Alonso and it is a shame that he has nowhere to play right now. I think that what they are doing is unorthodox but it does make sense. They need to showcase his bat since it is obvious that they need to move him this offseason. They can't bench Votto so they have to get creative. If he is going to single handedly lose games in the field, it will be difficult to play him there.

Back to back winning seasons? What a sad benchmark to strive for...

Winning the WS in 2012 SHOULD BE the goal and everything done in the latter part of this lost season should have been done with that ulterior goal in mind, not trying to somehow scrape together 82 wins.

_Sir_Charles_
08-31-2011, 02:00 PM
The fact they're even trying Alonso at 3b in the majors isn't enough? Dusty has to manage his players and manage this team to win games. I see not problem with limiting a players exposure to failure. What's Alonso going to learn from having a 3 error game or something of the like? What about a months worth of errors at 3b? What's that going to do to the team and the pitching staff? "Oh what the heck, live and let live, we're not playing for anything this year anyway." This team has to still play for pride and a strong finish.

Not to mention Alonso's confidence moving forward. If they don't care about it at all and only want to see him hit...fine. Send him out there without a glove even. Since it doesn't matter. /Sarcasm

Bumstead
08-31-2011, 02:08 PM
Not to mention Alonso's confidence moving forward. If they don't care about it at all and only want to see him hit...fine. Send him out there without a glove even. Since it doesn't matter. /Sarcasm

His confidence? Really? That's laughable. He spent 50-75 games at AAA this year playing LF. He plays 4 games this year and Dusty deems him incapable of manning LF....How's that for his confidence? Or, when Yonder starts A game and gets 3 hits and the winning hit, he sits the next 4 days...how's that on his confidence? Yonder seems like a pretty level-headed guy to me; I think he will be fine at either position for 20-25 games.

Bum

_Sir_Charles_
08-31-2011, 02:21 PM
His confidence? Really? That's laughable. He spent 50-75 games at AAA this year playing LF. He plays 4 games this year and Dusty deems him incapable of manning LF....How's that for his confidence? Or, when Yonder starts A game and gets 3 hits and the winning hit, he sits the next 4 days...how's that on his confidence? Yonder seems like a pretty level-headed guy to me; I think he will be fine at either position for 20-25 games.

Bum

It's bad for his confidence. Of course. But so would be sending him out again and again only to fail.

You and several others also feel that he will be fine at either position for 20-25 games. But the thing is, it's not up to you or us. It's up to the people who actually see him more in depth and more often. And from what I'm seeing, they don't feel he's ready at EITHER position. So why put him in a position to fail? What does that accomplish? It gets him practice? Is that really what the big leagues are for?

They brought up Yonder because they needed another bat and his was certainly ready. So he's filling in on the bench as a pinch hitter and spot starter. Where is the problem with this? They didn't bring him up to start. If Votto was injured, they would've. But if they were wanting to bring up someone to start in left field...I'm fairly sure it would've been Hermida. He's been hitting the cover off the ball AND he can field his position (something Yonder doesn't have outside of 1B). He was brought up as an extra bat off the bench. But since they have brought him up, he's proven that his bat is extremely ready...so now they're experimenting with new ideas to try to get him MORE at bats. But it's a work in progress. So he'll still get spot starts and some pinch hitting duties instead of doing the OTHER option...which is to send him back down to work on 3rd. From what I've seen, they've nearly eliminated the left field option for him at this point.

Bumstead
08-31-2011, 02:33 PM
It's bad for his confidence. Of course. But so would be sending him out again and again only to fail.

You and several others also feel that he will be fine at either position for 20-25 games. But the thing is, it's not up to you or us. It's up to the people who actually see him more in depth and more often. And from what I'm seeing, they don't feel he's ready at EITHER position. So why put him in a position to fail? What does that accomplish? It gets him practice? Is that really what the big leagues are for?

They brought up Yonder because they needed another bat and his was certainly ready. So he's filling in on the bench as a pinch hitter and spot starter. Where is the problem with this? They didn't bring him up to start. If Votto was injured, they would've. But if they were wanting to bring up someone to start in left field...I'm fairly sure it would've been Hermida. He's been hitting the cover off the ball AND he can field his position (something Yonder doesn't have outside of 1B). He was brought up as an extra bat off the bench. But since they have brought him up, he's proven that his bat is extremely ready...so now they're experimenting with new ideas to try to get him MORE at bats. But it's a work in progress. So he'll still get spot starts and some pinch hitting duties instead of doing the OTHER option...which is to send him back down to work on 3rd. From what I've seen, they've nearly eliminated the left field option for him at this point.

Your entire last paragraph is your opinion, certainly not a fact. If you go back to when Superstar Gomes (and defensive wizard) was traded, you find that Jockety brought Alonso up to play. One person has decided that's a bad idea, at first out of annoyance at losing his pet, and now his excuse is the 4 games he put Yonder in LF...and then starting him at 3B against Hamels...it's all pretty rich. Hopefully Walt can get through to Bob and an extrication can be made at the "manager" level. Enough is enough. Cairo was hitting .300-ish before Dusty started playing his utility guy/Neifi Perez everyday. What's he hitting now? What? oh... .268...smokin'. And was that an error he had last night? Hard to believe from such a "great" defensive player like Cairo...The arguments for continuing to put mediocrity onto the field for the sake of "winning" is comical/Cub-like. They haven't won with these guys and that's not going to change by running them out there everyday. How hard is that to figure out?

Bum

_Sir_Charles_
08-31-2011, 02:56 PM
Your entire last paragraph is your opinion, certainly not a fact.

Fine, let's go with facts then. Here's what Jocketty had to say when Yonder was brought up...


“He’s improve a lot,” Jocketty said. “He’ll be able to spell Joey from time to time. He’ll play some left field. H’ell be a left-handed hitter off the bench. The one thing we do know about Yonder is he can hit. He can flat out hit.”

Jocketty would not say Alonso will play every day in the left field. Chris Heisey and Fred Lewis will still get time.


“We felt we needed another left-handed bat,” Jocketty said. “Yonder’s done a terrific job at Louisville and has deserved the opportunity to come up here and see if he can contribute to the major league club.”


Nowhere in that does it say that he was brought up to be the starter. It basically says what I said. Pinch hitter, spot starter at 1b & LF. But that was prior to the LF debacle in Chicago. What Walt & Dusty saw there changed their minds on where and when those spot starts would occur.

Bumstead
08-31-2011, 03:01 PM
Fine, let's go with facts then. Here's what Jocketty had to say when Yonder was brought up...




Nowhere in that does it say that he was brought up to be the starter. It basically says what I said. Pinch hitter, spot starter at 1b & LF. But that was prior to the LF debacle in Chicago. What Walt & Dusty saw there changed their minds on where and when those spot starts would occur.

It didn't say he was brought up to sit either, it said he was brought up to contribute. He has mostly sat. Why is that? Because Cairo and Lewis are so good? Is that why? I have seen them play many times. They are mediocre or worse...including defensively...makes zero sense at this point in the season while the Reds continue to chase after nothing.

Bum

_Sir_Charles_
08-31-2011, 03:02 PM
It didn't say he was brought up to sit either, it said he was brought up to contribute. He has mostly sat. Why is that? Because Cairo and Lewis are so good? Is that why? I have seen them play many times. They are mediocre or worse...including defensively...makes zero sense at this point in the season while the Reds continue to chase after nothing.

Bum

He hasn't just "sat". He's played. But you have to remember that the plan when he was brought up...it CHANGED. Not due to Dusty or Walt...but due to Yonder's play in left field. If you want to point a finger...point it at Yonder. If he didn't put on a butcher-like display in left, he'd be seeing more starts.

Bumstead
08-31-2011, 03:08 PM
He hasn't just "sat". He's played. But you have to remember that the plan when he was brought up...it CHANGED. Not due to Dusty or Walt...but due to Yonder's play in left field. If you want to point a finger...point it at Yonder. If he didn't put on a butcher-like display in left, he'd be seeing more starts.

4 freakin' games...ridiculous. Carry-on. Dusty has "managed" this team so poorly the 2nd half of this season it is unbelievable, let alone the 2 months of Gomes. I'm tired of hearing the defending of him. He needs to go. This team could not finish with a worse record if Alonso played SS most likely and he would probably have the same range as Renterria! And if they happened to lose an extra 2 games? Who really cares?

Bum

Cedric
08-31-2011, 03:18 PM
4 freakin' games...ridiculous. Carry-on. Dusty has "managed" this team so poorly the 2nd half of this season it is unbelievable, let alone the 2 months of Gomes. I'm tired of hearing the defending of him. He needs to go. This team could not finish with a worse record if Alonso played SS most likely and he would probably have the same range as Renterria! And if they happened to lose an extra 2 games? Who really cares?

Bum

I haven't bashed Dusty before this year but I can't help it now. He has done such a miserable job in every way this season that I see no reason to not hammer him for Yonder also.

It's just been bad all the way around. Dusty was supposed to carry value for the off the field stuff and this year he's managed to botch a piece of that also.

_Sir_Charles_
08-31-2011, 03:20 PM
4 freakin' games...ridiculous. Carry-on. Dusty has "managed" this team so poorly the 2nd half of this season it is unbelievable, let alone the 2 months of Gomes. I'm tired of hearing the defending of him. He needs to go. This team could not finish with a worse record if Alonso played SS most likely and he would probably have the same range as Renterria! And if they happened to lose an extra 2 games? Who really cares?

Bum

Okay, since Yonder has come up, we've played 29 games total. Yonder has played in 23 of them. That's not sitting. He's gotten 6 starts. 4 in left, 1 at first and 1 at third. My point is that if he hadn't been so blatantly bad in left field in those 4 games, he would've gotten MORE starts. Have Frazier & Sappelt gotten more starts? Sure, but they don't have to be taken out for defensive reasons either. They're not relegated to more pinch hitting roles.

And btw, I'm not "defending" Baker. I'm only stating facts and my opinions. Have I said something that's NOT TRUE about Dusty?

Bumstead
08-31-2011, 03:24 PM
Okay, since Yonder has come up, we've played 29 games total. Yonder has played in 23 of them. That's not sitting. He's gotten 6 starts. 4 in left, 1 at first and 1 at third. My point is that if he hadn't been so blatantly bad in left field in those 4 games, he would've gotten MORE starts. Have Frazier & Sappelt gotten more starts? Sure, but they don't have to be taken out for defensive reasons either. They're not relegated to more pinch hitting roles.

I have nothing more to say to you. If you and Dusty are going to make decisions based on 4 games, then let the short-sighted rule I guess. So Yonder has started 6 games out of 29...and pinch hit in 17...yeah, that's not sitting...:bang:

_Sir_Charles_
08-31-2011, 03:44 PM
I have nothing more to say to you. If you and Dusty are going to make decisions based on 4 games, then let the short-sighted rule I guess. So Yonder has started 6 games out of 29...and pinch hit in 17...yeah, that's not sitting...:bang:

LOL. I think somebody need to step back and take a calming breath. You're getting ridiculously overworked about the playing time of a ROOKIE!

As for me, I'm not making any decisions. Only observations. And personally, I don't think Dusty has made any long term plans for Yonder either...only short-term ones.

Okay, let's make this simple. Do YOU think that Yonder Alonso can handle left field permanently defensively without costing the team wins? If you do, then you disagree with Dusty. But that doesn't make him OR YOU wrong. And he certainly shouldn't be vilified for having a different opinion than yours (and btw...his opinion is a bit more of an experts' opinion I'd guess). But feel free to vent and overreact...it's becoming par for the course at RZ. Disappointing seasons seem to bring out the worst in this board unfortunately.

757690
08-31-2011, 04:08 PM
I know Doug says that Alonso played decent LF in Louisville, and I trust him, as Doug as been right about nearly all of his reports.

However, I can't blame the Reds for dropping the Alonso in LF experiment after four games. Those four games that Alonso played LF were the most embarrassing four games I have ever seen any player play defense at any position. He didn't just play badly, he showed that he doesn't have the necessary physical ability to cover a MLB LF. What stood out for me were not his miss plays, but his inability to get to the common fly balls to left.

As I said before, it was like watching William Hung sing on American Idol. You don't need to hear him more then a few times to know that he's not going to cut it.

mdccclxix
08-31-2011, 04:15 PM
Yeah, firing a manager for not playing a 1b/DH in LF or 3b every game at the expense of the pitching and team is not going to happen. You can blame him all you want, but he's only one piece to this organization full of people that want to win games and keep this team relevant and believing in itself next year.

Bumstead
08-31-2011, 04:17 PM
LOL. I think somebody need to step back and take a calming breath. You're getting ridiculously overworked about the playing time of a ROOKIE!

As for me, I'm not making any decisions. Only observations. And personally, I don't think Dusty has made any long term plans for Yonder either...only short-term ones.

Okay, let's make this simple. Do YOU think that Yonder Alonso can handle left field permanently defensively without costing the team wins? If you do, then you disagree with Dusty. But that doesn't make him OR YOU wrong. And he certainly shouldn't be vilified for having a different opinion than yours (and btw...his opinion is a bit more of an experts' opinion I'd guess). But feel free to vent and overreact...it's becoming par for the course at RZ. Disappointing seasons seem to bring out the worst in this board unfortunately.

I may or may not be getting overworked. I am watching a team that is playing 15 or so games below its capabilities. And Dusty's solution is to continue to run the same guys out there, like that is going to change anything. I'm smart enough to know that doing the same thing that causes you to fail is not going to suddenly allow you to succeed. Dusty is all about Short Term. The Reds are all about Long Term. They aren't and don't mesh.

I am suggesting that the Reds play a ROOKIE that has a ton of potential and based on what he has done at AAA and so far in the majors appears to be ready to contribute consistently. Do I think he can be the permanent LF? No. Do I think that it's possible that he could play 2 years in LF or at 3B (contributing positively) until Votto leaves or doesn't or some decision is made? I think it is possible. Do I think 4 games can determine one way or the other? NO WAY! Do I think it is going to hurt the Red's fanbase or the Reds win total playing him at 3B or in LF 20-25 games (starting) the rest of the way? Not a chance. He would have to be absolutely horrible to make us worse than we are playing Lewis and Cairo most days.

To me, I see a team that is being built for the long haul. To me, I see a manager that is managing theoretically for the short haul. I am a frustrated Reds fan. I am as tired of losing as the next guy, but playing Cairo and Lewis over Alonso, Sappelt, and Frazier the rest of this season doesn't show me even an effort to get better in the short term. It just shows closed-minded-ness and pig-headed-ness and probably still sour grapes over the Gomes trade. Dusty is doing a dis-service to Alonso, the Reds, and the rest of the players on the team, by not trying to do something different to win now and not finding out how good these guys can be going into next year. What is it that losing 2 more games is going to change anyway?

Bum

Bumstead
08-31-2011, 04:21 PM
Yeah, firing a manager for not playing a 1b/DH in LF or 3b every game at the expense of the pitching and team is not going to happen. You can blame him all you want, but he's only one piece to this organization full of people that want to win games and keep this team relevant and believing in itself next year.

How many more games could we possibly lose? If the Reds won 81 games instead of 83 games, what difference would that make to the fanbase? The Reds are already under .500 trotting the same guys out there everyday. Why continue to do the same thing? You really believe doing the same thing that causes one to fail can suddenly lead to success?

Bum

mdccclxix
08-31-2011, 04:30 PM
How many more games could we possibly lose? If the Reds won 81 games instead of 83 games, what difference would that make to the fanbase? The Reds are already under .500 trotting the same guys out there everyday. Why continue to do the same thing? You really believe doing the same thing that causes one to fail can suddenly lead to success?

Bum

Well, the pitching has been shown to be the biggest problem with 2011, so I know we can't pin their record on Lewis, Gomes, Cairo, etc. Lot's of things went wrong elsewhere among the regulars as well to prevent a winning season so far. I think you continue to play most of your best players and work in some of the rookies where they can succeed. There are a few instances I will agree that Dusty could be permitting more exposure for his rookies, but it's not clear cut and it certainly is laughable to think he'd get fired for his handling of this situation. He has 3 rookies, all with incomplete games, and he's putting them in where he can.

Bumstead
08-31-2011, 04:39 PM
Well, the pitching has been shown to be the biggest problem with 2011, so I know we can't pin their record on Lewis, Gomes, Cairo, etc. Lot's of things went wrong elsewhere among the regulars as well to prevent a winning season so far. I think you continue to play most of your best players and work in some of the rookies where they can succeed. There are a few instances I will agree that Dusty could be permitting more exposure for his rookies, but it's not clear cut and it certainly is laughable to think he'd get fired for his handling of this situation. He has 3 rookies, all with incomplete games, and he's putting them in where he can.

It's not laughable at all that he would be relieved of his position. This team is at least 15 games worse than it should be and his "management" has lead directly to that result. Gomes and his continuation of sending mediocrity onto the field have played a huge role. If you can't stop teams from scoring you have to score more runs. Dusty has not given the Reds a better chance to do that. And it is not about defense because the guys he is sending out there are really not very good defensively or offensively.

And it's not laughable that someone gets let go whose goals are in direct contradiction to the management above him.

Bum

REDREAD
08-31-2011, 04:59 PM
And if they happened to lose an extra 2 games? Who really cares?

Bum

This boils it down.
You don't care how many games they lose the rest of the season.
Do the players care? Yes.
Would the pitchers like the rest of the games with Alonso at 3b, Frasier at SS, and
Sapplet in LF? That's a horrible left side of defense.. Remember how demoralizing (defensively) it was with EdE at 3b, Keppinger at SS and Dunn in LF?

Frankly, I think the Reds know that Sappelt and Fraser are marginal prospects.
They have to fight for their lives to get playing time, as it should be.

Alonso is blocked at 1b.. so they are giving him spot starts when his defensive
shortcomings are minimized. Sounds like a good plan to me.

And then there's the whole argument that the Reds are still trying to keep fans interested. Most fans don't want to see some marginal prospects that they've never heard of.

Also, I can't see why people are complaining about Renturia playing. He's better than Janish and the only other legit SS option.

Chip R
08-31-2011, 05:12 PM
This boils it down.
You don't care how many games they lose the rest of the season.
Do the players care? Yes.
Would the pitchers like the rest of the games with Alonso at 3b, Frasier at SS, and
Sapplet in LF? That's a horrible right side of defense.. Remember how demoralizing (defensively) it was with EdE at 3b, Keppinger at SS and Dunn in LF?

Frankly, I think the Reds know that Sappelt and Fraser are marginal prospects.
They have to fight for their lives to get playing time, as it should be.

Alonso is blocked at 1b.. so they are giving him spot starts when his defensive
shortcomings are minimized. Sounds like a good plan to me.

And then there's the whole argument that the Reds are still trying to keep fans interested. Most fans don't want to see some marginal prospects that they've never heard of.

Also, I can't see why people are complaining about Renturia playing. He's better than Janish and the only other legit SS option.

Well said, REDREAD.

You know who else cares about their win-loss record? Dusty. If this rift between him and Walt is real, he may not be able to save his job. What he can do is win as many games as possible between now and the end of the season. Makes him look better as a manager and if he does get fired a few more wins may land him in a better spot if he chooses to keep managing.

Bumstead
08-31-2011, 05:21 PM
Well said, REDREAD.

You know who else cares about their win-loss record? Dusty. If this rift between him and Walt is real, he may not be able to save his job. What he can do is win as many games as possible between now and the end of the season. Makes him look better as a manager and if he does get fired a few more wins may land him in a better spot if he chooses to keep managing.

So, then you and readread must believe that Cairo (while spiraling from .300 to .268) and Lewis (.232 empty) and their marginal defense give the Reds the best chance to win. See, readread and you are both wrong about my thoughts and my "lack of caring." I don't think they will lose less games, I'm just asking the questions. The players are going to be disappointed with 85 or 83 wins; you really believe Cairo and Lewis give the Reds a better chance to win 85 games? The same players that have helped lead them to a 67-68 record? What's going to change to where they are going to become better players?

I bet every night Joey Votto says, "awesome, 2 utility players starting again tonight! We are definitely going to play better with these same guys tonight!" Hilarious.

Bum

RedsManRick
08-31-2011, 05:38 PM
Option 1: Stay the course, play the proven backups most of the time, learn very little about the young guys, miss the playoffs by at least a dozen games. Enter ST 2012 with question marks and not much of an idea about whether or not the current crop of rookies could be part of the solution. Begin 2012 with either new "proven veterans" or untested rookies who may or may not get playing time.

Option 2: Give the rookies an extended trial, get much greater insight in to their ability to hack it, miss the playoffs by at least 12 games. Enter ST 2012 with a much better idea about whether or not the current crop of rookies could be part of the solution or if the Reds need to move in a different direction.

I honestly cannot belief that people would rather see Cairo and Fred Lewis everyday then give young players with a chance to be contributors an extended opportunity to play. I mean, why is this even a debate? How can we expect any player to perform well against a new level of competition and at a new position if he only gets to play there once or twice a week? And why are we protecting the feelings and "production" from career backups who we KNOW aren't the answer? Is Alonso or Sappelt an answer at 3B/LF? Maybe not. But I know who most certainly isn't. It like's there's Stockholm Syndrome with Dusty or something.

I can picture the press conference now. Bronson Arroyo gives up 5 runs, 4 earned, over 6 innings in a meaningless game against the Astros in late September.

Arroyo: "I really don't know what to think anymore. I thought people here cared about winning. But instead of Fred Lewis, Edgar Renteria and Miguel Cairo, I got Dave Sappelt and Todd Frazier out there. Ridiculous. Who do these kids think they are? If I had my guys out there, we would've won."

Reporter: "Bronson, all 5 runs scored on HRs that you allowed. Two of the 3 runs we scored we on homers by Yonder and Todd. Is it really fair to blame them?"

Arroyo: "No, I blame Dusty. He should be playing the guys who have earned their starting positions."

Reporter: "You mean the guys who are starting because of the other guys we have those positions either sucking or being hurt?"

Arroyo: "Ummm, yeah. Stupid rookies. I sure hope they aren't around here next year. I know for sure that I'm not going anywhere..."

757690
08-31-2011, 05:48 PM
Option 1: Stay the course, play the proven backups most of the time, learn very little about the young guys, miss the playoffs by at least a dozen games. Enter ST 2012 with question marks and not much of an idea about whether or not the current crop of rookies could be part of the solution. Begin 2012 with either new "proven veterans" or untested rookies who may or may not get playing time.

Option 2: Give the rookies an extended trial, get much greater insight in to their ability to hack it, miss the playoffs by at least 12 games. Enter ST 2012 with a much better idea about whether or not the current crop of rookies could be part of the solution or if the Reds need to move in a different direction.

I honestly cannot belief that people would rather see Cairo and Fred Lewis everyday then give young players with a chance to be contributors an extended opportunity to play. I mean, why is this even a debate? How can we expect any player to perform well against a new level of competition and at a new position if he only gets to play there once or twice a week? And why are we protecting the feelings and "production" from career backups who we KNOW aren't the answer? It like's there's Stockholm Syndrome with Dusty or something.

Option 3: Split time between the rookies and the vets, which is what has happened.

Frazier has had 19 starts and Sappelt 12.
Cairo has had 21 starts and Lewis 10 since the rookies were called up.

Alonso needs to find a place to play, and that clearly is what they are working on.

It's not like Frazier and Sappelt are getting playing time, or the Reds aren't getting a good look at what they can do.

osuceltic
08-31-2011, 06:08 PM
Option 1: Stay the course, play the proven backups most of the time, learn very little about the young guys, miss the playoffs by at least a dozen games. Enter ST 2012 with question marks and not much of an idea about whether or not the current crop of rookies could be part of the solution. Begin 2012 with either new "proven veterans" or untested rookies who may or may not get playing time.

Option 2: Give the rookies an extended trial, get much greater insight in to their ability to hack it, miss the playoffs by at least 12 games. Enter ST 2012 with a much better idea about whether or not the current crop of rookies could be part of the solution or if the Reds need to move in a different direction.

I honestly cannot belief that people would rather see Cairo and Fred Lewis everyday then give young players with a chance to be contributors an extended opportunity to play. I mean, why is this even a debate? How can we expect any player to perform well against a new level of competition and at a new position if he only gets to play there once or twice a week? And why are we protecting the feelings and "production" from career backups who we KNOW aren't the answer? Is Alonso or Sappelt an answer at 3B/LF? Maybe not. But I know who most certainly isn't. It like's there's Stockholm Syndrome with Dusty or something.

I can picture the press conference now. Bronson Arroyo gives up 5 runs, 4 earned, over 6 innings in a meaningless game against the Astros in late September.

Arroyo: "I really don't know what to think anymore. I thought people here cared about winning. But instead of Fred Lewis, Edgar Renteria and Miguel Cairo, I got Dave Sappelt and Todd Frazier out there. Ridiculous. Who do these kids think they are? If I had my guys out there, we would've won."

Reporter: "Bronson, all 5 runs scored on HRs that you allowed. Two of the 3 runs we scored we on homers by Yonder and Todd. Is it really fair to blame them?"

Arroyo: "No, I blame Dusty. He should be playing the guys who have earned their starting positions."

Reporter: "You mean the guys who are starting because of the other guys we have those positions either sucking or being hurt?"

Arroyo: "Ummm, yeah. Stupid rookies. I sure hope they aren't around here next year. I know for sure that I'm not going anywhere..."

Here's what I think you're missing: The Reds very likely know what they have. You may not be sure, but I think they've made up their minds. And I understand that. I've seen enough to make me think Todd Frazier is a younger Cairo and Sappelt may or may not ever be as good as Fred Lewis -- the upside for both guys is "starter you're always looking to replace."

The one guy in the bunch who is different is Alonso, and it's clear he's a one-position player. That's it. And the Reds are not going to bench their best player and reigning MVP. As much as you can't understand people arguing for the vets (and no one really is arguing for the vets ... they're understanding the reality of the situation), many of us can't understand how anyone who has watched Alonso at all can believe he could be an acceptable left fielder or third baseman. He is what he is -- a one-position player whose only value to the Reds is what he can bring in trade or as a Votto replacement. That's it. And there's nothing wrong with that. The Reds just have to make a decision and go with it.

Chip R
08-31-2011, 06:12 PM
So, then you and readread must believe that Cairo (while spiraling from .300 to .268) and Lewis (.232 empty) and their marginal defense give the Reds the best chance to win. See, readread and you are both wrong about my thoughts and my "lack of caring." I don't think they will lose less games, I'm just asking the questions. The players are going to be disappointed with 85 or 83 wins; you really believe Cairo and Lewis give the Reds a better chance to win 85 games? The same players that have helped lead them to a 67-68 record? What's going to change to where they are going to become better players?

I bet every night Joey Votto says, "awesome, 2 utility players starting again tonight! We are definitely going to play better with these same guys tonight!" Hilarious.

Bum

Doesn't matter what we believe since we don't make out the lineup card. It only matters what Dusty believes and apparantly he believes that starting Cairo and Lewis gives the Reds a better chance to win than starting Alonso and/or Sappelt and/or Frazier. I'd personally like to see Frazier and Sappelt get more starts. I'd also like to see Alonso in LOU playing LF or 3rd. But I don't think Sappelt and Frazier are going to give you much different results than Lewis and Cairo and they are more than likely going to end up being the same type of players if they stick. And that's what Dusty cares about. This is a team one year removed from a division championship. The days of rebuilding are over so they evidently feel they don't need to develop guys like Frazier and Sappelt and Alonso at the big league level. If they were finished products like Bruce was, that would be a different thing. The closest thing to a finished product is Frazier but .225/.287/.463 isn't going to get people excited.

_Sir_Charles_
08-31-2011, 06:34 PM
It's not laughable at all that he would be relieved of his position. This team is at least 15 games worse than it should be and his "management" has lead directly to that result. Gomes and his continuation of sending mediocrity onto the field have played a huge role. If you can't stop teams from scoring you have to score more runs. Dusty has not given the Reds a better chance to do that. And it is not about defense because the guys he is sending out there are really not very good defensively or offensively.

And it's not laughable that someone gets let go whose goals are in direct contradiction to the management above him.

Bum

You really think that us being 15 games worse than we "should be" is due to Dusty? Really? Personally, I think it's due to our players not playing as well as they did last year. I think it's due to some poor luck and bad timing. I think it's due to this team simply never clicking on all cylinders. I think it's the fact that when the pitching was solid, the defense/bullpen/offense disappeared. I think it's the fact that when the offense was solid, the pitching disappeared. All Dusty controls is who plays when basically. But at the end of the day it's up to the players to perform...and this year, they haven't performed as expected.

Would a shake-up of the roster help? Maybe. I was certainly all for one a few months ago. Now? Not sure if there's a point to it. So right now, for these rookies, it's just a cup of joe to knock off some of the butterflies for next season. It's getting a first hand glimpse of what some of them can do against MLB pitching/hitting. But what it's not about is forfeiting the rest of the season. Looking towards the future and playing for today don't have to be mutually exclusive concepts...they can both be done at the same time. But you have to mesh the two together...it's not all or the other. As long as the rookies are up and getting some time on the field without costing the team games by making rookie mistakes...where's the problem?

In regards to Dusty and his handling of the team, just remember that all he can do is play the guys that Walt gives him. Gomes, while deservedly has a reputation as a bad defender, is nowhere close to as bad as what we saw from Alonso. I know he only got 1 error, but the balls that got past him and ruled for hits...several of those even Gomes would've gotten...and that's saying something. For most of the season, what were Dusty's options for LF? Gomes, Lewis, Heisey. None of them were great options. Someone should've been brought up MUCH sooner IMO. And that's on Walt. If anybody has dropped the proverbial ball this season...it's been Mr. Jocketty. Of course we don't know what goes on behind closed doors, but imagine what "could have been" if we'd seen Cozart sooner, Sappelt sooner, etc, etc. Imagine if we'd seen less Volquez earlier, less Wood earlier, more Willis earlier. IMO, Dusty's been pretty handcuffed most of the year. But don't get me wrong, this has been Dusty's worst year that I've seen here too. He's certainly not blameless....but enough to get back on the managerial merry-go-round...god I hope not. I hate managerial turn-over.

TRF
08-31-2011, 06:34 PM
This boils it down.
You don't care how many games they lose the rest of the season.
Do the players care? Yes.
Would the pitchers like the rest of the games with Alonso at 3b, Frasier at SS, and
Sapplet in LF? That's a horrible left side of defense.. Remember how demoralizing (defensively) it was with EdE at 3b, Keppinger at SS and Dunn in LF?

Frankly, I think the Reds know that Sappelt and Fraser are marginal prospects.
They have to fight for their lives to get playing time, as it should be.

Alonso is blocked at 1b.. so they are giving him spot starts when his defensive
shortcomings are minimized. Sounds like a good plan to me.

And then there's the whole argument that the Reds are still trying to keep fans interested. Most fans don't want to see some marginal prospects that they've never heard of.

Also, I can't see why people are complaining about Renturia playing. He's better than Janish and the only other legit SS option.

I don't think it was all that demoralizing having Adam Dunn and his .900+ OPS 40 HR bat in LF. Somebody wake me when the reds have said bat out there.

cuz neither Lewis, Alonso, Heisey or Gomes EVER fit that bill.

_Sir_Charles_
08-31-2011, 06:40 PM
Option 3: Split time between the rookies and the vets, which is what has happened.

Frazier has had 19 starts and Sappelt 12.
Cairo has had 21 starts and Lewis 10 since the rookies were called up.

Alonso needs to find a place to play, and that clearly is what they are working on.

It's not like Frazier and Sappelt are getting playing time, or the Reds aren't getting a good look at what they can do.

:clap: Exactly. The only one who's not getting lots of starts is the guy who doesn't have position to start at. We don't have a DH and we're not sitting Votto.

membengal
08-31-2011, 08:21 PM
This boils it down.
You don't care how many games they lose the rest of the season.
Do the players care? Yes.
Would the pitchers like the rest of the games with Alonso at 3b, Frasier at SS, and
Sapplet in LF? That's a horrible left side of defense.. Remember how demoralizing (defensively) it was with EdE at 3b, Keppinger at SS and Dunn in LF?

Frankly, I think the Reds know that Sappelt and Fraser are marginal prospects.
They have to fight for their lives to get playing time, as it should be.

Alonso is blocked at 1b.. so they are giving him spot starts when his defensive
shortcomings are minimized. Sounds like a good plan to me.

And then there's the whole argument that the Reds are still trying to keep fans interested. Most fans don't want to see some marginal prospects that they've never heard of.

Also, I can't see why people are complaining about Renturia playing. He's better than Janish and the only other legit SS option.

And a lot of other fans would be thrilled to see the prospects instead of more Lewis and Cairo. I for darn sure would. I have basically tuned this crap team out for the last month. I tuned back in when Alonso came up, and when it became clear he wasn't going to be allowed to play so the immortal Fred Lewis could keep playing, I tuned back out again. I may tune in for that one start a week Dusty might give Mes.

Yay.

Redhook
08-31-2011, 08:49 PM
And a lot of other fans would be thrilled to see the prospects instead of more Lewis and Cairo. I for darn sure would. I have basically tuned this crap team out for the last month. I tuned back in when Alonso came up, and when it became clear he wasn't going to be allowed to play so the immortal Fred Lewis could keep playing, I tuned back out again. I may tune in for that one start a week Dusty might give Mes.

Yay.

This pretty much sums it up for me as well.

I'd actually watch some of the games to critique the new players. That's something I enjoy doing. I like seeing if they have a chance to be good. New doesn't always mean better, but at least it inspires hope. Lewis and Cairo provide no hope. They provide nothing to this team right now and will provide very little, if anything, in the future.

The longer this season goes, the more I hope this is Dusty's last season as a Reds manager. He's proven, to me, he's not the right guy for the job. I dislike him more everyday.

edabbs44
08-31-2011, 09:37 PM
Here's what I think you're missing: The Reds very likely know what they have. You may not be sure, but I think they've made up their minds. And I understand that. I've seen enough to make me think Todd Frazier is a younger Cairo and Sappelt may or may not ever be as good as Fred Lewis -- the upside for both guys is "starter you're always looking to replace."

The one guy in the bunch who is different is Alonso, and it's clear he's a one-position player. That's it. And the Reds are not going to bench their best player and reigning MVP. As much as you can't understand people arguing for the vets (and no one really is arguing for the vets ... they're understanding the reality of the situation), many of us can't understand how anyone who has watched Alonso at all can believe he could be an acceptable left fielder or third baseman. He is what he is -- a one-position player whose only value to the Reds is what he can bring in trade or as a Votto replacement. That's it. And there's nothing wrong with that. The Reds just have to make a decision and go with it.

Great post.

edabbs44
08-31-2011, 09:46 PM
And a lot of other fans would be thrilled to see the prospects instead of more Lewis and Cairo. I for darn sure would. I have basically tuned this crap team out for the last month. I tuned back in when Alonso came up, and when it became clear he wasn't going to be allowed to play so the immortal Fred Lewis could keep playing, I tuned back out again. I may tune in for that one start a week Dusty might give Mes.

Yay.

Fwiw, Sappelt and Frazier aren't really prospects who should be playing no matter what. Produce and I am sure you will see time.

Alonso is the exception and, in a perfect world he would see plenty of time. I am sure he would be in LF every day if they had any faith that his personal ERA in LF would be lower than Arroyo's.

dougdirt
08-31-2011, 10:35 PM
I know Doug says that Alonso played decent LF in Louisville, and I trust him, as Doug as been right about nearly all of his reports.


To be fair, I never said he played a decent left. I just said he played much better than than he showed in the Majors out there and he wasn't a guy who would kill you. There are plenty of scouts out there who will tell you that he is acceptable in left field as well, given his bat and the barometer of other left fielders. No one will confuse him with good.

dougdirt
08-31-2011, 10:37 PM
Well said, REDREAD.

You know who else cares about their win-loss record? Dusty. If this rift between him and Walt is real, he may not be able to save his job. What he can do is win as many games as possible between now and the end of the season. Makes him look better as a manager and if he does get fired a few more wins may land him in a better spot if he chooses to keep managing.

Does it land him a better spot though? To me, other GM's are going to look at it and think "This guy got fired because he wouldn't listen to what his GM wanted to happen or follow the plan set forth by his GM. Wait, I am a GM. Why should I hire a guy who works under me who isn't going to follow the plans I set forth"?

Chip R
08-31-2011, 11:03 PM
Does it land him a better spot though? To me, other GM's are going to look at it and think "This guy got fired because he wouldn't listen to what his GM wanted to happen or follow the plan set forth by his GM. Wait, I am a GM. Why should I hire a guy who works under me who isn't going to follow the plans I set forth"?

It might. It could be the difference between managing Washington or Florida/Miami. Or maybe OAK wants a new manager and basically Dusty manages in his back yard.

I'm just wondering how Dusty got so stupid in a year's time?

Blitz Dorsey
09-01-2011, 12:21 AM
Love you guys (in a very-manly way) but I think a lot of you are thinking way too much about this. The bottom line for me is that the Reds are out of the race for the 2011 season. We can all agree on that, correct? Welcome to September in a few minutes here.

We can also all agree that Yonder Alonso is an important player for this organization. Either as a mainstay for future seasons, or as trade bait that could help the Reds land a quality player. Maybe Yonder could be a key part of a package deal for a LF or SP. So, whether the Reds are going to keep Yonder long-term, or try and use him as one of the key pieces in a blockbuster trade, he's an important player in the organization right now. I'm sure everyone would concur, right?

Therefore, please explain the downside of playing Alonso everyday the rest of the season. And not just at 3B, but when Votto needs a day off at 1B (e.g. once or twice the rest of the year) and maybe 3-4 times in LF. Mostly at 3B, but not necessarily every game. At least by the end of September the Reds might have a better idea of what they've got in this guy. And if he tears it up, they have one heck of a trading chip, or a guy they might be able to count on for the future.

What's the downside? Playing for pride? Sorry, that is meaningless to me. If you're not first you're last. I buy into that. You're not in professional sports to play for second place. You also can never tank a game. But if you think playing Yonder Alonso every day during the month of September is "tanking" games, then I would strongly disagree with that assertion. By no means would that be tanking games. It would be finding out exactly what you've got in a former first-round pick who has played very well in his cameo role thus far. He also had a good minor league season this year after fully recovering from his broken hamate.

What's the downside? Not getting enough PT for Miguel Cairo? I love Cairo. He's a pro's pro. But the Reds know what they've got in him. He has no value in a blockbuster trade. The time is now for the Reds to play Alonso every day.

VR
09-01-2011, 12:44 AM
Some great reality posts on this page by edabbs, redread and others. Let's hope Alonso has an OPS north of 1.000 in September, so he can be packaged with a bow for a bonafied LF, SS, SP or closer.

Then sign Votto to the 6 yr, 140M contract he deserves.

I love any propect with the wishbone C.....but I love them a lot more than their true market value dictates.

dougdirt
09-01-2011, 02:14 AM
It might. It could be the difference between managing Washington or Florida/Miami. Or maybe OAK wants a new manager and basically Dusty manages in his back yard.

I'm just wondering how Dusty got so stupid in a year's time?

Two things.... there is no way at all that Oakland hires Dusty Baker, not as long as Billy Beane is their GM. And two, I have never thought Dusty was smart in terms of managing a baseball team. Last year, I fully believe that the team won in spite of him. And this year, the team is losing because of the injuries and Arroyo's mono derailing his season (assuming that is what derailed his season). I don't think Dusty is the reason they aren't pushing for the wild card (I think even if things went right, they are still trailing the Brewers), but I do think he has cost the team a few games with his managing.

Scrap Irony
09-01-2011, 03:02 AM
I'd guess (no way to prove it one way or another) the X's and O's of managing amount to a handful of runs over the course of a season, one way or another.

Handling the personalities, OTOH, IMO, amounts to much more than that.

Dusty has problems, obviously.

But his strengths are hardly ever held up by those that want to find someone else.

Put another way, Votto has blossomed into a perennial MVP candidate under Baker. I wonder if that would have happened under other managers in and around major league baseball.

Ron Madden
09-01-2011, 04:13 AM
Option 1: Stay the course, play the proven backups most of the time, learn very little about the young guys, miss the playoffs by at least a dozen games. Enter ST 2012 with question marks and not much of an idea about whether or not the current crop of rookies could be part of the solution. Begin 2012 with either new "proven veterans" or untested rookies who may or may not get playing time.

Option 2: Give the rookies an extended trial, get much greater insight in to their ability to hack it, miss the playoffs by at least 12 games. Enter ST 2012 with a much better idea about whether or not the current crop of rookies could be part of the solution or if the Reds need to move in a different direction.

I honestly cannot belief that people would rather see Cairo and Fred Lewis everyday then give young players with a chance to be contributors an extended opportunity to play. I mean, why is this even a debate? How can we expect any player to perform well against a new level of competition and at a new position if he only gets to play there once or twice a week? And why are we protecting the feelings and "production" from career backups who we KNOW aren't the answer? Is Alonso or Sappelt an answer at 3B/LF? Maybe not. But I know who most certainly isn't. It like's there's Stockholm Syndrome with Dusty or something.

I can picture the press conference now. Bronson Arroyo gives up 5 runs, 4 earned, over 6 innings in a meaningless game against the Astros in late September.

Arroyo: "I really don't know what to think anymore. I thought people here cared about winning. But instead of Fred Lewis, Edgar Renteria and Miguel Cairo, I got Dave Sappelt and Todd Frazier out there. Ridiculous. Who do these kids think they are? If I had my guys out there, we would've won."

Reporter: "Bronson, all 5 runs scored on HRs that you allowed. Two of the 3 runs we scored we on homers by Yonder and Todd. Is it really fair to blame them?"

Arroyo: "No, I blame Dusty. He should be playing the guys who have earned their starting positions."

Reporter: "You mean the guys who are starting because of the other guys we have those positions either sucking or being hurt?"

Arroyo: "Ummm, yeah. Stupid rookies. I sure hope they aren't around here next year. I know for sure that I'm not going anywhere..."

Well done, very well done indeed. :thumbup:

Ron Madden
09-01-2011, 04:27 AM
It might. It could be the difference between managing Washington or Florida/Miami. Or maybe OAK wants a new manager and basically Dusty manages in his back yard.

I'm just wondering how Dusty got so stupid in a year's time?

He's always been stupid it's just more evident when his team isn't getting a lot of breaks or coming back to win one run games in their last AB. ;)

mth123
09-01-2011, 07:36 AM
Some great reality posts on this page by edabbs, redread and others. Let's hope Alonso has an OPS north of 1.000 in September, so he can be packaged with a bow for a bonafied LF, SS, SP or closer.

Then sign Votto to the 6 yr, 140M contract he deserves.

I love any propect with the wishbone C.....but I love them a lot more than their true market value dictates.

I agree with the overall concept. IMO the best case scenario is Joey signs a deal like you propose and Alonso is a main cog in a deal for James Shields. For that to happen though, Yonder has to play and keep hitting. Otherwise, he won't bring back an upgrade IMO.

That, IMO, is the reality we're looking at.

lollipopcurve
09-01-2011, 08:16 AM
Then sign Votto to the 6 yr, 140M contract he deserves.

25% of the payroll to 1 player? Won't happen.

bucksfan2
09-01-2011, 10:08 AM
Two things.... there is no way at all that Oakland hires Dusty Baker, not as long as Billy Beane is their GM. And two, I have never thought Dusty was smart in terms of managing a baseball team. Last year, I fully believe that the team won in spite of him. And this year, the team is losing because of the injuries and Arroyo's mono derailing his season (assuming that is what derailed his season). I don't think Dusty is the reason they aren't pushing for the wild card (I think even if things went right, they are still trailing the Brewers), but I do think he has cost the team a few games with his managing.

Your stance on Dusty has been known since the Reds hired him. I love the notion that the Reds won in spite of him. I can think of two instances where Dusty went against his stereotypes and against the fan opinion and stuck with players longer than many would. He stuck with Bruce and Stubbs even as they went into long, long funks in the middle of the season last year. He stuck with the two when many were asking for a AAA stint to get their head back in the game. Heck he has done the same thing with those two this season.

I don't think Dusty is a great manager nor do I think he is a bad manager. He may not be the best tactition in the game but according to a SI poll players want to play for him. He isn't going to talk at all about a saber lean but he is also a guy who is going to go to bat for his players. IMO the likes of Frazier, Sappelt, and Alonso aren't seeing the field because they haven't warranted playing time. Frazier and Sappelt haven't done anything with the bat and Alonso isn't playing over Joey Votto. When given a chance in LF he was abysmal and they are now trying that 3b thingy.

If you want to attribute this teams failure look to all the guys who had underperformed this season. I could make a list but it would probably be about 20 long and not worth the time and effort. FWIW I don't think they are catching the Braves for the WC this season.

dougdirt
09-01-2011, 10:18 AM
Your stance on Dusty has been known since the Reds hired him. I love the notion that the Reds won in spite of him. I can think of two instances where Dusty went against his stereotypes and against the fan opinion and stuck with players longer than many would. He stuck with Bruce and Stubbs even as they went into long, long funks in the middle of the season last year. He stuck with the two when many were asking for a AAA stint to get their head back in the game. Heck he has done the same thing with those two this season.

I don't think Dusty is a great manager nor do I think he is a bad manager. He may not be the best tactition in the game but according to a SI poll players want to play for him. He isn't going to talk at all about a saber lean but he is also a guy who is going to go to bat for his players. IMO the likes of Frazier, Sappelt, and Alonso aren't seeing the field because they haven't warranted playing time. Frazier and Sappelt haven't done anything with the bat and Alonso isn't playing over Joey Votto. When given a chance in LF he was abysmal and they are now trying that 3b thingy.

If you want to attribute this teams failure look to all the guys who had underperformed this season. I could make a list but it would probably be about 20 long and not worth the time and effort. FWIW I don't think they are catching the Braves for the WC this season.

I don't think the Reds have a shot at anything at all this season. I have been saying that since the middle of July when it was clear they didn't really have a shot short of going on a .700 run the rest of the season that seemed impossible given how they had played up to that point.

Because of that, I don't care that Frazier and Sappelt haven't done anything to warrant playing time (in a span of 3 weeks for each guy.... which tells me that we honestly haven't seen nearly enough to know what they are or aren't capable of). You play them and find out more information on them. You absolutely 100% know what Fred Lewis and Miguel Cairo are. There isn't a question as to what they are. They are back up players. No questions about it. There are thoughts that Sappelt and Frazier might also be back ups (I still believe that Sappelt has the ability to be a strong left fielder in the majors). But that is the point, its a thought. We simply do not know. Let's get some more information to help us come to the right conclusion. The handling of some of the guys has simply been crazy.

IslandRed
09-01-2011, 11:32 AM
Here's what I think you're missing: The Reds very likely know what they have. You may not be sure, but I think they've made up their minds. And I understand that. I've seen enough to make me think Todd Frazier is a younger Cairo and Sappelt may or may not ever be as good as Fred Lewis -- the upside for both guys is "starter you're always looking to replace."

The one guy in the bunch who is different is Alonso, and it's clear he's a one-position player. That's it. And the Reds are not going to bench their best player and reigning MVP. As much as you can't understand people arguing for the vets (and no one really is arguing for the vets ... they're understanding the reality of the situation), many of us can't understand how anyone who has watched Alonso at all can believe he could be an acceptable left fielder or third baseman. He is what he is -- a one-position player whose only value to the Reds is what he can bring in trade or as a Votto replacement. That's it. And there's nothing wrong with that. The Reds just have to make a decision and go with it.

Good post.

The funny thing is, from the Reds' perspective (not ours), Alonso is probably the most crystal-clear of the bunch. They know he can hit and they probably have little or no expectation the LF or 3B thing will ever work out. Odds are, they're just finding him some at-bats where they can while doing the least damage possible afield, and also working in the other prospects who are more likely to play 3B or LF down the road.

However, I can see where RMR is coming from. It's the baseball equivalent to the old adage, "you need a job to get experience and you need experience to get a job." So people grudgingly admit prospects shouldn't be handed jobs, they should have to earn them, then argue they can't earn them unless it's handed to them for awhile, which is a fair argument. However, life isn't always fair. Depending on pedigree, some people will get that full-time job right away and other people have to fight their way up from an internship, so to speak. And even if vets like Cairo are removed from the equation, we can't give Alonso and Frazier and Sappelt and Heisey and Francisco all full-time jobs this month. Either the Reds pick their winners now, or they spread it out and decide over the offseason, and I'm assuming they'll probably do the latter.

klw
09-01-2011, 11:34 AM
Alonso in LF today, Francisco at 3rd.

RedsManRick
09-01-2011, 12:44 PM
Alonso in LF today, Francisco at 3rd.

Sucks to be Todd Frazier.

RedsManRick
09-01-2011, 02:15 PM
Alonso and Frazier and Sappelt and Heisey and Francisco all full-time jobs this month. Either the Reds pick their winners now, or they spread it out and decide over the offseason, and I'm assuming they'll probably do the latter.

We thought that would happen to some degree last offseason and instead they went the veteran route. This year, the young guys have really pushed the issue as Alonso, Frazier, Sappelt, Cozart, Mes and Fransisco have all earned an extended shot in the majors.

Your point about the number of guys needing chances in September is absolutely valid and simply underscores how silly it's been that Alonso, Sappelt and Frazier weren't used more often in August in lieu of the veteran backups. Now it's going to be even harder to give guys a decent opportunity.

Looking at the 25 man roster for 2012, the crunch isn't going away. Cairo is signed cheaply for 2012 and the Reds like having that veteran leadership. Cairo basically has Frazier's job, so Frazier could be the odd man out. Here's one way things could work out.

C Hanigan, Mesoraco
1B Votto, Alonso
2B Phillips, Cairo
SS Cozart, Janish/Frazier
3B Rolen
LF Heisey, Sappelt
CF Stubbs
RF Bruce

With Cairo unable to play SS, you need another utility IF who can handle it. The could be Janish, but given Janish's poor performance this year and Cozart's doing well in his limited opportunity, I could see them either demoting or releasing Janish and relying on Frazier as the backup.

Alonso and Fransisco are basically battling for one spot as well and Alonso clearly has an edge. But Fransisco is the better defense 3B/LF and the Reds seem to like him.

What a mess. A good kind of mess, but definitely a mess. Something has to give.

Bumstead
09-01-2011, 03:03 PM
Alonso is out of options next season. He will be in the majors. He is not battling with anyone. I would guess that by 7/31/2012 the Reds will have either cleared a spot for Alonso (1B or made the decision that his bat outweighs his defense at LF or 3B) or will have trade him to another team. Playing him now not only allows the Reds to see what he can do in MLB but also allows the rest of the teams to see how he can do, especially at the plate.

Bum

redsmetz
09-01-2011, 04:03 PM
Alonso is out of options next season. He will be in the majors. He is not battling with anyone. I would guess that by 7/31/2012 the Reds will have either cleared a spot for Alonso (1B or made the decision that his bat outweighs his defense at LF or 3B) or will have trade him to another team. Playing him now not only allows the Reds to see what he can do in MLB but also allows the rest of the teams to see how he can do, especially at the plate.

Bum

According to Mark Sheldon in his conversation with Marty & Jim during today's game, he was surprised to find out today that Alonso still has one more option.

Bumstead
09-01-2011, 04:17 PM
According to Mark Sheldon in his conversation with Marty & Jim during today's game, he was surprised to find out today that Alonso still has one more option.

Really? Huh...goes against everything I have heard.

dougdirt
09-01-2011, 04:33 PM
Really? Huh...goes against everything I have heard.

You haven't been reading/listening to the right people then. Alonso gets a 4th option because he used all of his options before his 5th season as a pro. His draft year didn't use an option because he didn't spend 20 days in the minors. So 2009 was 1, 2010 was 2, this year is 3 and next year will be 4.

dougdirt
09-01-2011, 04:34 PM
Also, I wound up missing the first 8 innings of the game. How did Alonso look in left?

Bumstead
09-01-2011, 04:44 PM
You haven't been reading/listening to the right people then. Alonso gets a 4th option because he used all of his options before his 5th season as a pro. His draft year didn't use an option because he didn't spend 20 days in the minors. So 2009 was 1, 2010 was 2, this year is 3 and next year will be 4.

I will just ask you next time! :D

Bumstead
09-01-2011, 04:45 PM
Also, I wound up missing the first 8 innings of the game. How did Alonso look in left?

Was listening to Marty and he made it sound like Alonso fielded his position just fine today. Made 3 nice plays it sounded like.

Bum

oneupper
09-01-2011, 04:52 PM
Also, I wound up missing the first 8 innings of the game. How did Alonso look in left?

Not bad. One ball went over his head, but there wasn't a chance on that. He hit the cutoff man on a run scoring single....etc.

Looked Ok.

REDREAD
09-01-2011, 05:00 PM
It's not laughable at all that he would be relieved of his position. This team is at least 15 games worse than it should be and his "management" has lead directly to that result.

Actually, the team is worse this year because
of regression/disappointment from Wood, Volquez, Homer, Gomes, Bruce, Stubbs, Janish, Renturia
Rolen was hurt (also Homer)
Arroyo has health issues

I'm probably forgetting a few players, but the only players that have really stepped forward this year are Cueto, Leake, Phillips, and Votto.

Not really Dusty's fault.

lollipopcurve
09-01-2011, 05:00 PM
Not bad. One ball went over his head, but there wasn't a chance on that. He hit the cutoff man on a run scoring single....etc.

Looked Ok.

So, a passing imitation of George Foster, Adam Dunn and Jonny Gomes?

REDREAD
09-01-2011, 05:04 PM
I don't think it was all that demoralizing having Adam Dunn and his .900+ OPS 40 HR bat in LF. Somebody wake me when the reds have said bat out there.

.

That's why I said it was demoralizing "defensively".
EdE and Keppinger had their spells when their offense was welcome too.

Honestly Sappelt and Frazier seem to be getting the same kind of love that Janish got last year. People love prospects and just assume that if they are properly coached and given enough playing time, that it will be an improvement to what we have already. Hope springs eternal.

Bumstead
09-01-2011, 05:15 PM
That's why I said it was demoralizing "defensively".
EdE and Keppinger had their spells when their offense was welcome too.

Honestly Sappelt and Frazier seem to be getting the same kind of love that Janish got last year. People love prospects and just assume that if they are properly coached and given enough playing time, that it will be an improvement to what we have already. Hope springs eternal.

Janish was never a prospect...Frazier probably isn't a prospect; he's probably a super utility guy at best (which is better than what Janish should be). The Reds currently suck. I'm not sure why playing younger players is so offensive to some of you. And I see that you excuse Dusty completely for this season's sucky-ness. That's your opinion, but I don't agree. We both have that right I believe.

Bum

Bumstead
09-01-2011, 05:17 PM
So, a passing imitation of George Foster, Adam Dunn and Jonny Gomes?

So, if Alonso makes every play in LF he can, he's an imitation of Dunn and Gomes? How about he had a good day in the field and let's see how it works out instead of continuing to label him. I know you haven't seen him enough to know one way or the other (and neither have I, but I can be open-minded about it).

Bum

lollipopcurve
09-01-2011, 05:20 PM
So, if Alonso makes every play in LF he can, he's an imitation of Dunn and Gomes? How about he had a good day in the field and let's see how it works out instead of continuing to label him. I know you haven't seen him enough to know one way or the other (and neither have I, but I can be open-minded about it).

You miss my point. If the Reds can get by with the likes of Foster, Dunn and Gomes in left, I see no reason why they can't play Alonso out there.

Bumstead
09-01-2011, 05:26 PM
You miss my point. If the Reds can get by with the likes of Foster, Dunn and Gomes in left, I see no reason why they can't play Alonso out there.

Sorry. I agree, I just don't think he should be labeled as such, although that may be the best defensively he can be, just yet.

Bum

REDREAD
09-01-2011, 05:33 PM
Because of that, I don't care that Frazier and Sappelt haven't done anything to warrant playing time (in a span of 3 weeks for each guy.... which tells me that we honestly haven't seen nearly enough to know what they are or aren't capable of). You play them and find out more information on them. You absolutely 100% know what Fred Lewis and Miguel Cairo are. There isn't a question as to what they are. They are back up players. No questions about it. There are thoughts that Sappelt and Frazier might also be back ups (I still believe that Sappelt has the ability to be a strong left fielder in the majors). But that is the point, its a thought. We simply do not know. Let's get some more information to help us come to the right conclusion. The handling of some of the guys has simply been crazy.

Well, for some reason, the Reds last winter talked themselves into believing that Janish was ready for the SS job, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary (minor league stats and poor MLB performance outside of about 200 ABs last season). They gave Janish the big chance and it bit them.

I think the Reds pretty much know what they have in Sappelt and Frasier, and it isn't a starting caliber player... Maybe the Reds are training them to be backup players. I also firmly believe that Dusty does his best to spot limited talent players into slots they can succeed. When Rolen is healthy, Dusty spot starts Cairo and Cairo excells. More or less, the same with Heisey.

REDREAD
09-01-2011, 05:36 PM
Janish was never a prospect...Frazier probably isn't a prospect; he's probably a super utility guy at best (which is better than what Janish should be). The Reds currently suck. I'm not sure why playing younger players is so offensive to some of you. And I see that you excuse Dusty completely for this season's sucky-ness. That's your opinion, but I don't agree. We both have that right I believe.

Bum

I guess it doesn't matter to me if Lewis or Sappelt is out there sucking.
Dusty is rotating the kids in.. I don't see that Dusty is incompetent as some people are claiming.

dougdirt
09-01-2011, 06:01 PM
Well, for some reason, the Reds last winter talked themselves into believing that Janish was ready for the SS job, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary (minor league stats and poor MLB performance outside of about 200 ABs last season). They gave Janish the big chance and it bit them.

I think the Reds pretty much know what they have in Sappelt and Frasier, and it isn't a starting caliber player... Maybe the Reds are training them to be backup players. I also firmly believe that Dusty does his best to spot limited talent players into slots they can succeed. When Rolen is healthy, Dusty spot starts Cairo and Cairo excells. More or less, the same with Heisey.

I just can't see the Reds looking at the short swing of Sappelt and the numbers he has put up the last two seasons and saying "we are sure this guy isn't a starter". I am not a professional scout by any means, but that guy can hit the ball. I have seen him about 600-700 times at the plate over the last two seasons. The guy can hit. He is going to hit. That he hasn't in 3 weeks worth of time doesn't change my opinion on that.

Frazier is another story. He swings and misses enough and doesn't show enough of a hit tool to suggest he is nearly a sure thing when it comes to hitting. His power will play. I am just not sure about his hit tool playing. With Sappelt, I am pretty confident in the long run, his hit tool is going to play just fine in the Majors once he settles in.

RedsManRick
09-01-2011, 06:19 PM
I just can't see the Reds looking at the short swing of Sappelt and the numbers he has put up the last two seasons and saying "we are sure this guy isn't a starter". I am not a professional scout by any means, but that guy can hit the ball. I have seen him about 600-700 times at the plate over the last two seasons. The guy can hit. He is going to hit. That he hasn't in 3 weeks worth of time doesn't change my opinion on that.

Frazier is another story. He swings and misses enough and doesn't show enough of a hit tool to suggest he is nearly a sure thing when it comes to hitting. His power will play. I am just not sure about his hit tool playing. With Sappelt, I am pretty confident in the long run, his hit tool is going to play just fine in the Majors once he settles in.

Frazier has a .232 BABIP. Give him 3 extra singles and he has a .286 BABIP and a .259/.318/.494. He is hitting pretty exactly as expected. That's not to say he'll keep it up, but let's look beyond the .222.

TRF
09-01-2011, 06:32 PM
Dave Sappelt = Norris Hopper with a trickle of power. He COULD be a leadoff hitter in the Michael Bourn/Nyjer Morgan mold (minus the Morgan crazy one would hope) or he could be Norris Hopper. I think it could go either way, with the nudge towards the two successful guys, but Hopper is a very, very real possibility.

dougdirt
09-01-2011, 06:34 PM
Frazier has a .232 BABIP. Give him 3 extra singles and he has a .286 BABIP and a .259/.318/.494. He is hitting pretty exactly as expected. That's not to say he'll keep it up, but let's look beyond the .222.

I was more referring to Frazier over the last two seasons of watching him play. I just don't know at all that his hit tool is going to be enough for him to be a starter.

dougdirt
09-01-2011, 06:37 PM
Dave Sappelt = Norris Hopper with a trickle of power. He COULD be a leadoff hitter in the Michael Bourn/Nyjer Morgan mold (minus the Morgan crazy one would hope) or he could be Norris Hopper. I think it could go either way, with the nudge towards the two successful guys, but Hopper is a very, very real possibility.

I don't really think Hopper is even a decent comparison. Norris Hopper has never in his career, at any level (with more than 50 PA's) slugged .400. He had 4 HR's in a total of 5200 plate appearances as a pro. Norris Hopper couldn't hit 5 HR's in a season if he were allowed to swing from the pitchers mound. The two guys aren't even remotely comparable.

RedsManRick
09-01-2011, 06:49 PM
I was more referring to Frazier over the last two seasons of watching him play. I just don't know at all that his hit tool is going to be enough for him to be a starter.

That's fine. I just want people to see that if they realy feel the small sample sizes are insightful, then the insight on Frazier is that he's an .800 OPS bat. He reminds me of Aaron Boone with a bit more pop. But I don't know anything about his swing, its holes, etc - just looking at the production.

TRF
09-01-2011, 07:03 PM
In 2010, across three levels and in 564 PA's, Sappelt hit 10 HR's. In his previous 881 PA's he hit 14, 7 of which came in the hitter friendly Pioneer League. I get that he re worked his swing a bit, but I see a 7 HR guy relying on doubles for his SLG playing in a park that suppresses all EBH that aren't HR's.

Like I said he could be Michael Bourn. I'd be ok with Nyjer Morgan. I think we can also expect Norris Hopper. 42 BB's in 564 PA's is fine if you hit .350. Do you think Sappelt is going to hit .350 at the MLB level? I don't think Sappelt has Brandon Phillips power. BP has 12 HR's this year, 33 BB's and a .298 BA. I don't see Sappelt with those power numbers, as he has never done that. He doesn't have enough power to legitimately expect to SLG .400. And consider this, his power isn't NEARLY what Stubbs is and his SLG this year is .379.

edabbs44
09-01-2011, 07:14 PM
Here's an honest question...does anyone have a list of players who have been wronged by Dusty Baker and/or Walt who ended up showing them up? It just seems like every year there is a Chris Dickerson, Paul Janish, Chris Heisey, etc who just needs to get that chance to get 500 consecutive PAs in order to prove those bad men wrong.

I'm not sure that I can think of any off the top of my head. Maybe there are a few over the dozens of combined years that these guys have under there belts, just like anyone else in the game. But do we really doubt that these guys cannot accurately assess talent?

RedsManRick
09-01-2011, 07:18 PM
I was more referring to Frazier over the last two seasons of watching him play. I just don't know at all that his hit tool is going to be enough for him to be a starter.

That's fine. I just want people to see that if they realy feel the small sample sizes are insightful, then the insight on Frazier is that he's an .800 OPS bat. He reminds me of Aaron Boone with a bit more pop.

edabbs44
09-01-2011, 07:24 PM
That's fine. I just want people to see that if they realy feel the small sample sizes are insightful, then the insight on Frazier is that he's an .800 OPS bat. He reminds me of Aaron Boone with a bit more pop.

Pete and Repete are sitting in a boat. Pete fell out, who's left?

Always Red
09-01-2011, 08:42 PM
Well, for some reason, the Reds last winter talked themselves into believing that Janish was ready for the SS job, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary (minor league stats and poor MLB performance outside of about 200 ABs last season). They gave Janish the big chance and it bit them.

I think the Reds pretty much know what they have in Sappelt and Frasier, and it isn't a starting caliber player... Maybe the Reds are training them to be backup players. I also firmly believe that Dusty does his best to spot limited talent players into slots they can succeed. When Rolen is healthy, Dusty spot starts Cairo and Cairo excells. More or less, the same with Heisey.

REDREAD, this is not aimed toward you specifically, but towards the thread: the the Reds are 2nd in the NL in runs scored, 4th in OPS, 7th in BA, and tied for 2nd in fielding percentage.

The hitting and fielding are well above league average.

Pitching is the problem.

Fix the pitching, and we have a winner.

dougdirt
09-01-2011, 08:45 PM
In 2010, across three levels and in 564 PA's, Sappelt hit 10 HR's. In his previous 881 PA's he hit 14, 7 of which came in the hitter friendly Pioneer League. I get that he re worked his swing a bit, but I see a 7 HR guy relying on doubles for his SLG playing in a park that suppresses all EBH that aren't HR's.

Like I said he could be Michael Bourn. I'd be ok with Nyjer Morgan. I think we can also expect Norris Hopper. 42 BB's in 564 PA's is fine if you hit .350. Do you think Sappelt is going to hit .350 at the MLB level? I don't think Sappelt has Brandon Phillips power. BP has 12 HR's this year, 33 BB's and a .298 BA. I don't see Sappelt with those power numbers, as he has never done that. He doesn't have enough power to legitimately expect to SLG .400. And consider this, his power isn't NEARLY what Stubbs is and his SLG this year is .379.

Come on. You expect a .400 OBP or the guy can't work? If the guy hits .290 and walks 45 times a season, he is going to be fine assuming he can play any semblance of defense. And he can.

As for him not having the power to slug .400. Strongly disagree. He is a guy who can be a 30 doubles, 5 triples, 15 HR guy. As for Stubbs.... If Stubbs could hit .290 like I believe Sappelt could, well then Stubbs would be slugging well over .400 (especially considering to actually hit .290 he would have to make a lot more contact than he is, thus resulting in even more XBH's than he is getting now).

jojo
09-01-2011, 09:09 PM
I was more referring to Frazier over the last two seasons of watching him play. I just don't know at all that his hit tool is going to be enough for him to be a starter.

I'd feel much more confident that Frazier could be a regular if he had Kyle Seager's glove.

Big Klu
09-02-2011, 02:09 AM
So, a passing imitation of George Foster, Adam Dunn and Jonny Gomes?

George Foster was the Reds' regular CF in 1971.

marcshoe
09-02-2011, 04:04 AM
REDREAD, this is not aimed toward you specifically, but towards the thread: the the Reds are 2nd in the NL in runs scored, 4th in OPS, 7th in BA, and tied for 2nd in fielding percentage.

The hitting and fielding are well above league average.

Pitching is the problem.

Fix the pitching, and we have a winner.


Whenever I see these numbers, I'm wondering how they break down as far as individual games go. I'm sure there's a site that tells you this, but since I don't know where that site is and I have insomnia, here are some numbers I pulled out of the Reds schedule.

First, the number of games the team scored a certain amount of runs in.

0-8
1-9
2-21 (no surprise that this is the largest amount. Seems like we've seen constant games where they only score a couple of runs.)
3-19
4-20
5-11
6-13
7-13
8-8
9-5
10-4
11-3
12-2
13-1.

Just some observations by eyeballing this: teams clustering around 3 or 4 run games seems normal. 2 seems low. I was surprised the Reds hadn't scored more than 13 runs in a game.

So, if the Reds actually gave up 4 runs each game, they would have won 60, lost 57, and tied 20. Split those tie games in half and the team's three games over .500, as compared to the reality of them being two games under.

The Reds scored an average of 4.62 runs per game. They scored more runs than expected 62 times and fewer than expected 77 times.

Now for the pitchers:

Number of runs scored in number of games.

0-4

1-13

2-18

3-28

4-21

5-16

6-7

7-8

8-7

9-4

10-6

11-2

12-1

13-1


The Runs Per Game average is 4.14, only slightly higher than the ERA of 4.10. The pitching has given up more runs than expected 52 times and given up fewer runs than expected 91 times.

If the Reds had actually scored 4 runs per game, they would have won 63 and lost 52. So hitting to their average would have improved their record by 13 games while pitching to their average would have improved it by 3 games.Now, it being almost 3 AM and with me in a bad patch of insomnia, my numbers might be wrong and my use of these numbers may be worse, but here's what I found:

The hitting has underperformed in 15 games more than they've overperformed, and the pitching has overperformed in 39 times. That would mean the hitting is -15 games and the pitching is +39 games.

This isn't sabremetrics, and those numbers don't give a macro stat.

Again, this is an oversimplification. It doesn't address the causes (bad outings by Volquez, bullpen blowing up), only the frequency of these anomalies.

What I get from this, though, is that when you look at the micro, hitting falls short in a larger number of games than pitching and could possibly be improved more easily.

It is three AM, though, and I'm not even a math person when I'm awake. Can anyone interpret these numbers better?

Edit-as I read this over I'm finding I'm not saying what I'm thinking and at times am even writing the opposite of what I mean. I need to sleep and will look at this again in the morning.

Hoosier Red
09-02-2011, 09:40 AM
Here's an honest question...does anyone have a list of players who have been wronged by Dusty Baker and/or Walt who ended up showing them up? It just seems like every year there is a Chris Dickerson, Paul Janish, Chris Heisey, etc who just needs to get that chance to get 500 consecutive PAs in order to prove those bad men wrong.

I'm not sure that I can think of any off the top of my head. Maybe there are a few over the dozens of combined years that these guys have under there belts, just like anyone else in the game. But do we really doubt that these guys cannot accurately assess talent?

I made that point in another thread ed(or maybe earlier in this one), going back to his Cubs days, Dusty was castigated for playing the likes of Jose Macias, Neiffi Perez, and Eric Karros over future luminaries like Ronnie Cedeno, Hee Sop Choi, and Matt Murton.

Now I understand the argument that there's nothing to be gained from playing those guys, especially at this point in the season. But I think the human side of the equation is that veteran players appreciate the fact that they get the benefit of the doubt. And while younger players may understandably be frustrated by this, they understand that it is encumbent on them to prove themselves by being flexible and by producing when given the chance.

RedsManRick
09-02-2011, 10:04 AM
On the runs allowed side, you need to look at all runs, not earned ones.

marcshoe
09-02-2011, 10:59 AM
That's what I ended up including. I thought I deleted the earned runs references, but it was 3 AM, so who knows. I started out with earned runs, then just took the straight runs allowed numbers and divided them for a basic average. The difference was 4.1o to 4.14 for the average. Numbers of runs in each game listed is pure scoreboard runs.

Honestly, I have no idea what my conclusions were. Lack of sleep's not conducive to clear thinking. Looking at the list this morning, I think I can understand what I was getting at a little better, so I may just simplify it in a little while.

Again, I apologize for not being clear. I'm switching some medication, and the insomnia's getting to me. This was almost like one of those posting-while-drunk incidents we see occasionally.

RedsManRick
09-02-2011, 11:01 AM
Pete and Repete are sitting in a boat. Pete fell out, who's left?

Wow. I don't think I've heard that in 20 years. Awesome.

TRF
09-02-2011, 11:09 AM
Come on. You expect a .400 OBP or the guy can't work? If the guy hits .290 and walks 45 times a season, he is going to be fine assuming he can play any semblance of defense. And he can.

As for him not having the power to slug .400. Strongly disagree. He is a guy who can be a 30 doubles, 5 triples, 15 HR guy. As for Stubbs.... If Stubbs could hit .290 like I believe Sappelt could, well then Stubbs would be slugging well over .400 (especially considering to actually hit .290 he would have to make a lot more contact than he is, thus resulting in even more XBH's than he is getting now).

That assumes he can hit .290. It also assumes he can BB 45 times. Since he has never really done that (42 across 3 levels last year, but just 6 at AAA in 2010 and 30 this year) I don't think he can. I told you Stubbs needed to hit for a lot more power than he had ever shown in order for his walks to go up enough to offset his lack of contact skills. Offensively, the most you can hope for from Sappelt is what Stubbs is giving the Reds this year in terms of power. 12 HR's. 20+ doubles. Last year, a MUCH better year for Stubbs saw him hit 19 doubles. But you have a guy with maybe a third of Stubbs power, a guy not as fast hitting 30+? Now if he can hit .290, yeah, he might have a .420 SLG, but the HR's are more likely to be 5-7. I don't see him hitting more doubles than the fastest player on the team. I see a guy playing half his games in a park that generally suppresses doubles. I think you see his ceiling, where I am looking for the mean.

I said Stubbs value would fall into the floor if his power didn't assert itself. well, that power has all but vanished and he's got a .703 OPS. Do you really see a BA driven, no walk, no power guy like Sappelt with a .750 - .775 OPS?

He's not going to hit .350 in the show.