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Dan
08-31-2011, 11:17 AM
ESPN Story (http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/6908844/information-age-changing-way-game-played)


And the second great renaissance? That's been taking place, almost imperceptibly, over the last decade -- but to a greater degree, just over the last year or two or three. Looking back, it's not hard to figure out why. Every once in a while in life, a bunch of powerful forces in the universe seem to converge on us at once. And all they do is change just about everything. Well, this is now, officially, one of those times.

westofyou
08-31-2011, 12:58 PM
Great article. Really informative and accessible to everyone out there, traditionalist as well as stat heads.

IslandRed
08-31-2011, 02:42 PM
Agreed. Excellent stuff.

Now that "the book" on hitters is way more specific -- every permutation of pitch type, location, count and tendency -- it's going to be harder for a hitter to cover up major holes or weaknesses. That's probably why we're seeing more guys fall off a cliff stats-wise. Of course, like Price said in the article, you still have to make the pitch.

RichRed
08-31-2011, 03:09 PM
Very good article.

I often wonder whether the Reds are closer to the cutting edge of the information age or closer to the
haphazard, 'I-think-this-is-going-to-work' approach, or the 'this-is-what-happened-in-1987-and-it-worked-then' approach

I have a guess.

oneupper
08-31-2011, 03:12 PM
"Knock him down, then put the next three pitches knee-high on the outside corner, boom, boom, boom, and you've got him." --Pitching coach Sal Maglie
From Ball Four

reds1869
08-31-2011, 03:54 PM
Wonderful stuff. The organizations that recognize changes and take advantage of them are always the ones that succeed. Hopefully the Reds are one of those organizations.

remdog
08-31-2011, 04:25 PM
The basics of baseball remain the same since the beginning of the game: if you're a hitter, put the bat on the ball, if you are a pitcher, throw strikes, if you are a defender, field the ball cleanly and make a good throw. Pretty simple. Despite all this information, both side have it so if a pitcher knows how a hitter reacts to a slider the hitter also knows the pitchers' pattern of throwing it.

OTOH, if numbers, charts, etc., can help you do those things then that's all good. If don't you have the basic skills then it doesn't really make a difference. There is no info that is going to turn Paul Janish into a good hitter.

Rem

AtomicDumpling
08-31-2011, 04:44 PM
Joe Maddon is using technology to develop innovative new strategies to give the Rays an edge. Dusty Baker is using advice he gleaned from Hank Aaron in the 1970's to give the Reds a disadvantage.

Walt Jocketty was fired by the Cardinals because he refused to embrace sabermetrics and technology. The Reds jumped on the chance to hire Jocketty and let him lead the franchise into the 21st century.

:lastyear:

TRF
08-31-2011, 05:50 PM
I see a future where stats for catchers appear just inside the mask.

Jason Heyward comes to the plate and Mesoraco touches his mask. on the inside he sees a spray chart for the types of pitches his pitcher throws. he gets 10 seconds to see said chart before the batter steps in.

At one point, quarterbacks didn't have radios in their helmets. Now they do.

Mario-Rijo
08-31-2011, 06:34 PM
Seems to me that having a player the caliber of Votto on your team in this day and age the better your chances of winning. Guys who are capable of being a bit less predictable or who basically have few holes in their game are gonna be worth so much more than they have ever been above those who do.

westofyou
08-31-2011, 07:02 PM
Joe Maddon is using technology to develop innovative new strategies to give the Rays an edge. Dusty Baker is using advice he gleaned from Hank Aaron in the 1970's to give the Reds a disadvantage.

Walt Jocketty was fired by the Cardinals because he refused to embrace sabermetrics and technology. The Reds jumped on the chance to hire Jocketty and let him lead the franchise into the 21st century.

:lastyear:
Yet in the linked article Bryan Price mentions the Reds use the technology, then in Fays blog yesterday Baker mentioned that he used spray charts ( like those cited in the same article ) just the other day.

Hmmmm

AtomicDumpling
08-31-2011, 08:42 PM
Yet in the linked article Bryan Price mentions the Reds use the technology, then in Fays blog yesterday Baker mentioned that he used spray charts ( like those cited in the same article ) just the other day.

Hmmmm

It doesn't actually say the Reds use the technology. It only says the Reds are aware there is data out there. The Reds rarely put on the type of shifts used by the Rays as mentioned in the article. The charts Dusty was quoted as using are notebooks containing things like batting average vs a pitcher, whether the pitcher is a low-ball or high-ball pitcher, playing speedy outfielders in large ballparks and things of that nature -- certainly nothing too high tech or cutting edge. Baker, Jocketty and Castellini are as old-school as it gets. Price might be a little more advanced but he is no Steve Jobs either. I would wager large sums of cash the Reds are way behind the curve when it comes to technology and understanding the modern game.

IslandRed
08-31-2011, 09:53 PM
It doesn't actually say the Reds use the technology. It only says the Reds are aware there is data out there.

So, Jayson Stark is writing an article on the use of technology in baseball, and out of all the people in baseball he can go to for on-the-record quotes, he'll pick a pitching coach who doesn't use the technology? That doesn't make any sense.

AtomicDumpling
09-01-2011, 03:06 AM
So, Jayson Stark is writing an article on the use of technology in baseball, and out of all the people in baseball he can go to for on-the-record quotes, he'll pick a pitching coach who doesn't use the technology? That doesn't make any sense.

If the Reds were using the technology as detailed in the article we would see it in the form of defensive shifts -- which the Reds do not use.

I am sure the Reds have better scouting reports than they used to have, but I don't believe the Reds players are constantly studying specially individualized video and advanced statistics on their Ipads like the teams discussed in the article. I imagine one of the writers or broadcasters around the Reds might have mentioned that to us before. Whatever use the Reds are making of new technology I am sure it is far less advanced than what tech-savvy teams like Tampa Bay, Boston and Oakland are doing. The Reds are likely closer to the trailing edge than the leading edge.

IslandRed
09-01-2011, 10:11 AM
"The technology" is not one big program and its use is not all or nothing. If Dusty doesn't like shifts, that's his deal. Doesn't imply others in the org can't be using the data.

Brutus
09-01-2011, 11:29 AM
It doesn't actually say the Reds use the technology. It only says the Reds are aware there is data out there. The Reds rarely put on the type of shifts used by the Rays as mentioned in the article. The charts Dusty was quoted as using are notebooks containing things like batting average vs a pitcher, whether the pitcher is a low-ball or high-ball pitcher, playing speedy outfielders in large ballparks and things of that nature -- certainly nothing too high tech or cutting edge. Baker, Jocketty and Castellini are as old-school as it gets. Price might be a little more advanced but he is no Steve Jobs either. I would wager large sums of cash the Reds are way behind the curve when it comes to technology and understanding the modern game.

I'm not sure where you're getting all this but Jocketty himself has said in several places they (the Reds) have several of their own proprietary software systems to analyze players, scouting, etc.

The idea they don't use technology is blatantly false...

TRF
09-01-2011, 12:28 PM
If Dusty doesn't use shifts, why did i see one Monday night with Alonso camped at SS when Howard was hitting?

RichRed
09-01-2011, 01:31 PM
If Dusty doesn't use shifts, why did i see one Monday night with Alonso camped at SS when Howard was hitting?

I thought the same thing; Janish was on the Phillips side of second base too.

klw
09-01-2011, 01:41 PM
If Dusty doesn't use shifts, why did i see one Monday night with Alonso camped at SS when Howard was hitting?

It wasn't a shift, Alonso was simply trying out for the SS opening.

AtomicDumpling
09-01-2011, 04:45 PM
I'm not sure where you're getting all this but Jocketty himself has said in several places they (the Reds) have several of their own proprietary software systems to analyze players, scouting, etc.

The idea they don't use technology is blatantly false...

That is a blatant distortion of my posts. I didn't say the Reds don't use any technology. Talk about distorting someone's post to an absurd extreme.

My point was the Reds are not leading the way with innovative new cutting edge methods. The Reds are trailing the curve, not leading it. Dusty Baker and Walt Jocketty are a far cry from innovators like Joe Maddon and Theo Epstein. If you warp my theme any further than that you are creating a straw man.

AtomicDumpling
09-01-2011, 04:48 PM
If Dusty doesn't use shifts, why did i see one Monday night with Alonso camped at SS when Howard was hitting?

The Reds use shifts less often than any other team I have seen all year. Using a shift against Ryan Howard doesn't make your manager a genius like Steve Jobs. Watch the Rays and you will see the fielders constantly on the move before almost every pitch.

westofyou
09-01-2011, 05:13 PM
That is a blatant distortion of my posts. I didn't say the Reds don't use any technology. Talk about distorting someone's post to an absurd extreme.

My point was the Reds are not leading the way with innovative new cutting edge methods. The Reds are trailing the curve, not leading it. Dusty Baker and Walt Jocketty are a far cry from innovators like Joe Maddon and Theo Epstein. If you warp my theme any further than that you are creating a straw man.
Actually you said Dusty uses stuff he learned from Hank Aaron. That's pretty disingious if you ask me.

TRF
09-01-2011, 05:24 PM
If the Reds were using the technology as detailed in the article we would see it in the form of defensive shifts -- which the Reds do not use.

ahem.

This board does this waaaaaay too much. Using absolutes where none are needed. The Reds use shifts. Do they do them as often as other teams? Perhaps not, but clearly they do use them.

I seem to recall that at one time they used defensive placement in the OF more than most teams and were considered to be a team that was leading the curve in defensive placement. But they weren't a strong team defensively in the OF at the time so perhaps they had to do that.

Brutus
09-01-2011, 05:47 PM
That is a blatant distortion of my posts. I didn't say the Reds don't use any technology. Talk about distorting someone's post to an absurd extreme.

My point was the Reds are not leading the way with innovative new cutting edge methods. The Reds are trailing the curve, not leading it. Dusty Baker and Walt Jocketty are a far cry from innovators like Joe Maddon and Theo Epstein. If you warp my theme any further than that you are creating a straw man.


Your exact quote was "(the article) doesn't actually say the Reds use technology. It only says they're aware there is data out there."

Now, forgive me, but this sure implies the distinction the Reds weren't actually implicated as using technology. If your stance was they do use it, then why bother to point out the article didn't say they used it? That would be irrelevant if we assume they are using it; it would be implied anyhow.

That you went to such lengths to point out they weren't shown to use it, sure makes it seem like you imply a belief they don't. I didn't distort anything. If your position is they do use technology, you didn't make that very clear.

AtomicDumpling
09-01-2011, 09:21 PM
Your exact quote was "(the article) doesn't actually say the Reds use technology. It only says they're aware there is data out there."

Now, forgive me, but this sure implies the distinction the Reds weren't actually implicated as using technology. If your stance was they do use it, then why bother to point out the article didn't say they used it? That would be irrelevant if we assume they are using it; it would be implied anyhow.

That you went to such lengths to point out they weren't shown to use it, sure makes it seem like you imply a belief they don't. I didn't distort anything. If your position is they do use technology, you didn't make that very clear.

The Reds clearly don't use the techniques as described in the article to the extent that other teams like the Rays and Red Sox and Athletics do, that is what I was referring to. I said that quite clearly, but you extrapolated that out to an absurd degree to imply that I said the Reds don't use any electrical devices that may resemble "technology". I am sure the Reds do have some computers and other "technology", but they very clearly are not deriving a competitive advantage by developing new uses for the latest technology. That is the difference you don't seem to understand.

We have all seen the quotes from Dusty about how he uses what he learned from Hank Aaron and the other old timers. You don't see Dusty quoted talking about his use of Ipads. I don't see why you are so eager to defend his use of technology. He is obviously far behind the likes of Joe Maddon in terms of developing new strategies.

Do you think the Reds are at the cutting edge of new technologies to the extent that they are gaining a competitive edge over the rest of the league? What evidence do you have to support this?

Brutus
09-01-2011, 11:46 PM
The Reds clearly don't use the techniques as described in the article to the extent that other teams like the Rays and Red Sox and Athletics do, that is what I was referring to. I said that quite clearly, but you extrapolated that out to an absurd degree to imply that I said the Reds don't use any electrical devices that may resemble "technology". I am sure the Reds do have some computers and other "technology", but they very clearly are not deriving a competitive advantage by developing new uses for the latest technology. That is the difference you don't seem to understand.

We have all seen the quotes from Dusty about how he uses what he learned from Hank Aaron and the other old timers. You don't see Dusty quoted talking about his use of Ipads. I don't see why you are so eager to defend his use of technology. He is obviously far behind the likes of Joe Maddon in terms of developing new strategies.

Do you think the Reds are at the cutting edge of new technologies to the extent that they are gaining a competitive edge over the rest of the league? What evidence do you have to support this?

I don't have any evidence, but Walt has outright said they have several proprietary scouting/development systems they use. He's a no-nonsense kind of guy, and I don't see him saying they have those kinds of things if they didn't. If he doesn't believe in technology, there'd be no reason to put on a facade that he does.

I honestly don't think there is much of a competitive edge. Most organizations do in fact use technology and really I don't think the 'my statistical analysis is better than yours' gains too much leverage. I think the use of technology for swing analysis and scouting is widespread, where computer systems are in every front office that evaluate, project and analyze stats and player development.

Ron Madden
09-02-2011, 04:34 AM
The Reds clearly don't use the techniques as described in the article to the extent that other teams like the Rays and Red Sox and Athletics do, that is what I was referring to. I said that quite clearly, but you extrapolated that out to an absurd degree to imply that I said the Reds don't use any electrical devices that may resemble "technology". I am sure the Reds do have some computers and other "technology", but they very clearly are not deriving a competitive advantage by developing new uses for the latest technology. That is the difference you don't seem to understand.

We have all seen the quotes from Dusty about how he uses what he learned from Hank Aaron and the other old timers. You don't see Dusty quoted talking about his use of Ipads. I don't see why you are so eager to defend his use of technology. He is obviously far behind the likes of Joe Maddon in terms of developing new strategies.

Do you think the Reds are at the cutting edge of new technologies to the extent that they are gaining a competitive edge over the rest of the league? What evidence do you have to support this?

I'll probably catch hell for my opinion but it wouldn't be the first time.

I believe if we were to compare the Red Sox' use of technologies to that of of the Reds it would most likely be akin to comparing George Jetson to Fred Flintstone.

Hoosier Red
09-02-2011, 08:27 AM
I don't have any evidence, but Walt has outright said they have several proprietary scouting/development systems they use. He's a no-nonsense kind of guy, and I don't see him saying they have those kinds of things if they didn't. If he doesn't believe in technology, there'd be no reason to put on a facade that he does.

I honestly don't think there is much of a competitive edge. Most organizations do in fact use technology and really I don't think the 'my statistical analysis is better than yours' gains too much leverage. I think the use of technology for swing analysis and scouting is widespread, where computer systems are in every front office that evaluate, project and analyze stats and player development.

I agree Brutus. I think each team probably has it's own version of the software which is set up according to the manager/pitching coach/batting coach/GM's taste.

As Redhook can attest, the video swing analysis software is so prevalant that I'd be surprised if there are many golf pros who don't use it.

If it's available for people paying $60/hour for a golf lesson, I'm pretty sure that every major league, and most minor league teams have access to a similar program.

westofyou
09-02-2011, 09:36 AM
According to many here this tool must be like the weight bench in their home, basically used for hanging clothes on, not what it was intended for.

http://www.scoutadvisor.com/cincinnati-reds-ink-multi-year-deal-with-scoutadvisor-corporation/



Boston, MA – (December 4, 2009) – The Cincinnati Reds have signed a multi-year deal with ScoutAdvisor Corporation, the company that counts the majority of Major League Baseball clubs utilizing its advanced scouting and analytical technology, as clients.

The Reds are slated to deploy the “extended” ScoutAdvisor® DataPro system for the 2010 season and beyond.

Cincinnati’s Owner, Bob Castellini, along with GM Walt Jocketty and other front office executives met with the principals of ScoutAdvisor Corp. on Tuesday at The Great American Ball Park where the contract to procure the ScoutAdvisor® DataPro system was signed.

“Utilizing ScoutAdvisor’s Source Funnel Technology®, the Reds will deploy the most state of the art one-stop-shop analytical system to date. Both data and video feeds from a plethora of diverse public and proprietary silos will all be aggregated into one, centralized, searchable location on the web, and will be accessible via laptop or mobile device,” said Yates Jarvis, VP of Strategy and Creative for ScoutAdvisor Corp.

ScoutAdvisor Corp. has invested over 2,500 hours on exacting its proprietary Source Funnel Technology® for its ‘DataPro’ product. The Reds are the benefactors of nearly ten years of evolution in ScoutAdvisor’s system development.

ScoutAdvisor® is a category-killer application for professional sports teams. It is most-often deployed across a wide spectrum of staff, from front offices, to scouting departments, to player development personnel. The company is tailoring its systems for a roll out to the NFL, NHL, NBA, EUFA and MLS in the not-too-distant future.

About ScoutAdvisor Corporation
ScoutAdvisor Corporation is the nation’s leading scouting technology company. Since 1999, ScoutAdvisor has been specializing in the creation of technology solutions to improve the collection, reporting and management of data by providing customized, online/offline analytics, data aggregation, and advanced, visual data trending.

Currently, a majority of Major League Baseball uses these cutting-edge systems. ScoutAdvisor is also dedicated to developing for international markets, with a comprehensive system currently in use by clients including Japan’s ORIX Buffaloes.

Brutus
09-02-2011, 01:44 PM
According to many here this tool must be like the weight bench in their home, basically used for hanging clothes on, not what it was intended for.

http://www.scoutadvisor.com/cincinnati-reds-ink-multi-year-deal-with-scoutadvisor-corporation/

Good find, WOY.

bucksfan2
09-02-2011, 02:28 PM
The Reds clearly don't use the techniques as described in the article to the extent that other teams like the Rays and Red Sox and Athletics do, that is what I was referring to. I said that quite clearly, but you extrapolated that out to an absurd degree to imply that I said the Reds don't use any electrical devices that may resemble "technology". I am sure the Reds do have some computers and other "technology", but they very clearly are not deriving a competitive advantage by developing new uses for the latest technology. That is the difference you don't seem to understand.

The Rays built their team based upon a number of top 3-5 draft picks. The Red Sox have been pegged as one of the leaders in the technology area but did technology tell them to trade for Adrian Gonzales and hand him a $100M+ contract? The A's have been bottom feeders for the better half of a decade. What ever they are doing I don't want to do.

There have been stereotypes built around the Reds being very unreceptive towards modern advances for a number of years on. And in fact the only information that has ever come out has proven that to be inaccurate. Without advance knowledge from the Reds, their front office policies, and the scouting department we will never know.

Ron Madden
09-03-2011, 06:08 AM
According to many here this tool must be like the weight bench in their home, basically used for hanging clothes on, not what it was intended for.

http://www.scoutadvisor.com/cincinnati-reds-ink-multi-year-deal-with-scoutadvisor-corporation/


This is all well and good if the Reds employ front office personnel with the ability to understand the information this service provides.

westofyou
09-03-2011, 10:51 AM
This is all well and good if the Reds employ front office personnel with the ability to understand the information this service provides.

Again... this is disingenuous. WE don't know how, who and what info is being used. That doesn't mean that the 3 stooges are running the team, nor does it mean that NASA is running it,

We don't know squat about how and when, much alone who.

Let's try and a least admit that fact.

The Operator
09-03-2011, 11:41 AM
This is all well and good if the Reds employ front office personnel with the ability to understand the information this service provides.I doubt they would make that kind of an investment without having anyone with the ability to interpret and/or use the data in a useful manner.

Patrick Bateman
09-03-2011, 11:53 AM
Again... this is disingenuous. WE don't know how, who and what info is being used. That doesn't mean that the 3 stooges are running the team, nor does it mean that NASA is running it,

We don't know squat about how and when, much alone who.

Let's try and a least admit that fact.

That should end the thread.

It's pretty annoying when people go out of their way to criticize the Reds front office.

There are enough real reasons out there that we don't need to make them up.

RedsManRick
09-04-2011, 10:47 AM
Good to see the Reds utilizing such a system, but based on that description at least, it's mainly a very fancy data aggregator, along the lines of what's described in the Times article. As WOY rightly points out, we have no idea what's being done with the data.

Simply having access to data doesn't mean an organization is analyzing the data in a meaningful way nor making decisions -- be it personell or strategy -- based on that information.

I wouldn't criticize the Reds for how they use data since I don't really know, but simply having access to data simply means they are a medium-large business that exists in the 21st century and isn't really a mark in their favor. Having access to volumes of data and incorporating analytics in to decision-making processes are VERY different things.

westofyou
09-06-2011, 12:41 AM
Everything new is old.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1120903/index.htm



Though traditionalists may shudder at the thought, it was inevitable that such a stat-happy pursuit as baseball would plug into a data bank. And Boros, 46, a Michigan grad who plans to take classes in computer science during the off-season, is in the forefront of a new wave of enlightened technocrats who are rewiring the game. "I guess we're what you would call the computer generation," he says.

Managers Tony LaRussa of the White Sox, Dick Howser of the Royals and Frank Robinson of the Giants are other converts to the religion of mathematical probabilities as dictated by the magic machine. When Boros and LaRussa match Apple II computers at the Oakland Coliseum on June 10, both teams will have access to such sophisticated new wrinkles as pitch type/ location readouts and "hitdemo" graphics. In the system the A's and Sox use, the data are compiled play by play, pitch by pitch, by a computer operator in the press box and another tabulator, usually the pitcher scheduled to start the next day, who sits at field level where he can better chart the types of balls thrown.

While some of the data have been available to managers in the past, Boros explains that never before have they been so detailed and accessible. "I've only got so much time to digest and utilize the material," he says, "and the computer can do it all for me in an instant."

Ahh the detractors..



Not every manager is a computer wizard. "I don't need that stuff," says the Yankees' Billy Martin, pointing to his head. "I've got it all up here."

Martin suffers from a familiar affliction, computerphobia, says Matt Levine, president of Pacific Select Corp, the sports management firm that developed the computer system, called Edge 1.000, used by the A's, White Sox and, soon, the Yankees. Though Martin may choose to ignore electronic data, Levine says, "Billy and other managers don't understand that the computer isn't going to replace them, that it isn't a threat but a tool to give them more reliable information on which to base their decisions."

Dang, charts??

What?

They write em on the walls of their caves?


Good hitting doesn't go unnoticed by machine—or man—especially when tracked by such masters of manual computation as Dick Williams of the Padres and Whitey Herzog of the Cardinals, both of whom spend up to three hours a day making elaborate color-coded charts of each game. Indeed, that both of these venerable stat freaks wear a World Series ring prompted LaRussa and Boros, friends since they played Triple A ball together in Vancouver in 1968, to explore the potential of computer baseball. "In time the use of the computer will be standard with all clubs," LaRussa says. "You're never going to have a computer making decisions for the manager, but the longer you use it, the more uses you have for it."