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redsmetz
08-31-2011, 03:51 PM
The talk in one of the Votto threads reminded me of a couple of articles I read that examined a handful of moves the Reds made in the 1960's and erased them, if you will, looking at how the club might have fared if they had retained the players in question.

Here's the first of the series from The Hardball Times

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-virtual-1962-69-cincinnati-reds-part-1/

Here's the the 2nd

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-virtual-1962-69-cincinnati-reds-part-2/

Interesting read that makes you think "what if".

wlf WV
08-31-2011, 08:49 PM
Pitching was vastly improved.

Thanks for sharing the articles.

vic715
08-31-2011, 09:36 PM
What makes me sad is I remember the Osteen for Sisler trade.The sad part is that it was almost 50 years ago.

redsmetz
08-09-2013, 11:42 AM
Since I mentioned the 1962 season in passing in a current thread, I'm going to bump this thread because it's such a fascinating review of moves the Reds made during the 1960's that kept the club from reaching the pinnacles of baseball, leaving the 1970's BRM teams to have been the resurgence of Reds baseball.

Enjoy!

RANDY IN INDY
08-09-2013, 11:52 AM
The Reds made some very questionable deals in that period. Makes you really wonder what they were thinking as most of the players they got in return were very mediocre.

Always Red
08-09-2013, 02:32 PM
The Reds made some very questionable deals in that period. Makes you really wonder what they were thinking as most of the players they got in return were very mediocre.

Seems as if the FO was great at identifying talent, but terrible at utilizing organizational assets.

RedsBaron
08-09-2013, 03:54 PM
I realize hindsight is 20-20, and, yes, Bob Howsam made some brilliant trades in the 1970s, but the Reds in that decade also made a few terrible trades.
Some of the bad trades, such as trading away Hal McRae along with Wayne Simpson to the Royals after the 1972 season for Roger Nelson and Richie Scheinblum are at least partially defensible. Simpson for Nelson was essentially a wash of two sore armed pitchers, and maybe it couldn't have been expected that McRae would have such a long and distinguished career while Scheinblum did squat for the Reds.
The head scratcher trades Howsam made were the trade after the 1973 season of Ross Grimsley and the trade on 6/15/77 of Mike Caldwell. Those two trades probably cost the Reds the 1978 NL West title and may have cost them the 1974 title as well.
Grimsley was not enough of a conformist to fit in with the mid-70s Reds mindset, but he was also a quality leftie,something the Reds certainly did not have a surplus of. His first season (1974) in Baltimore he went 18-13 with a 3.07 ERA, a 112 ERA+, with 17 complete games and 295 innings. In return for him the Reds got Bill Wood, Junior Kennedy and Merv Rettenmund. It would have been a better exchange if the Reds had simply settled for a bag of used baseballs.
Even worse was the trade of Caldwell. In 1977 the Reds starting pitching collapsed, and the inability of Tom Seaver to start every game meant that even his mid-season acquisition was not enough to cure that problem. Despite that the Reds dumped Caldwell at the then trade deadline for Dick O'Keefe and Garry Pyka.
In 1978 Caldwell went 22-9 for the Brewers with a 2.36 ERA, 160 ERA+, with 23 complete games and 293 innings. Meanwhile Grimsley went 20-11 for the Orioles with a 3.05 ERA, a 115 ERA+, with 19 complete games and 263 innings. Put Caldwell and Grimsley on the 1978 staff with Seaver and the Reds finish first.
The Reds reportedly traded Caldwell because Howsam, Wagner & Co. did not like Caldwell's agent.
Remember too that at the time the Reds were quite prosperous, having lead the NL in attendance in 1976. Suppose they had kept Grimsley and Caldwell, and had then also participated in the free agency market instead of standing apart from it. The free agency signing of one Goose Gossage after the 1977 season would have done wonders for the Reds bullpen.
The era of the BRM ended in part because of the hubris of the Reds management.

oneupper
08-09-2013, 04:02 PM
If we're going to play "what if", let's look at the draft picks from the late 60's/

1965: Carbo and Bench (2nd Round)
1966: Gary Nolan
1967: Wayne Simpson
1968: Timothy Grant (who?)
1969: Don Gullett. Rawley Eastwick (3rd rd) Ken Griffey (29th!)

After that the team got better in the standings and the draft picks worse. But if the REDS had placed better in 64-68, who knows if they would have been able to draft some of these key players. (Griffey would have been there in the 29th round probably)

RedsBaron
08-09-2013, 04:21 PM
If we're going to play "what if", let's look at the draft picks from the late 60's/

1965: Carbo and Bench (2nd Round)
1966: Gary Nolan
1967: Wayne Simpson
1968: Timothy Grant (who?)
1969: Don Gullett. Rawley Eastwick (3rd rd) Ken Griffey (29th!)

After that the team got better in the standings and the draft picks worse. But if the REDS had placed better in 64-68, who knows if they would have been able to draft some of these key players. (Griffey would have been there in the 29th round probably)

Of course the Reds did place pretty good in 1964, finishing in a tie for second place, one game behind the Cardinals. Since every team passed on Bench in the first round in 1965 they would have still had a shot at him.
The really bad draft for the Reds may have been 1971 when they passed on both Mike Schmidt and George Brett.
What I enjoyed about the Hardball Times article is that it did not require the Reds to make any brilliant moves to acquire new talent; it simply analyzed what could have been had they kept what they had.

RANDY IN INDY
08-09-2013, 04:28 PM
Sparky Didn't Like Grimsley One Little Bit.

Roy Tucker
08-09-2013, 04:48 PM
Pretty interesting articles.... my Reds fanhood was budding at that time and all those guys are very familiar. I think I still have all their baseball cards. One thing stood out to me:



1964

...

Osteen's presence would eject the 35-year-old, close-to-the-end-of-the-line Ryne Duren from the back end of the Cincinnati bullpen, and allow the team to rely less heavily upon the swingman quartet of Bob Purkey, Joey Jay, John Tsitouris and Joe Nuxhall in starting assignments.


Game 162 loser and breaker of a young 12 yr. old Roy's heart.

Always Red
08-09-2013, 05:02 PM
Pretty interesting articles.... my Reds fanhood was budding at that time and all those guys are very familiar. I think I still have all their baseball cards. One thing stood out to me:



Game 162 loser and breaker of a young 12 yr. old Roy's heart.

-2 points, Roy,for speaking the name of He Whose Name Must Not Be Spoken around here. ;)