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texasdave
12-13-2011, 09:13 PM
Congratulations to 2nd Team All-American Derek Wolfe.

wolfboy
12-14-2011, 09:12 AM
Kellen Moore was not the QB when they beat Oklahoma in the Fiesta Bowl. And Boise is 151-27 under three separate coaches starting in 1998. Boise's not exactly a flash in the pan.

I'd add that they only made the jump to division 1 in 1996.

Slyder
12-14-2011, 02:07 PM
Pitt has lost its entire coaching staff to Arizona schools. A bunch of assistants went with Rich Rod and Todd Graham was just named to be Head Coach at Arizona State!

Graham must have not liked being the 3rd choice last year so he took the first opportunity where he was the 2nd choice (June Jones).

HotCorner
12-14-2011, 03:23 PM
http://c0014084.r32.cf1.rackcdn.com/x2_9d326e8

http://lockerz.com/s/164833000

WVRed
12-14-2011, 04:57 PM
Sounds Petrinoesque.

Lets see if Pitt can get who they want this time and actually manage to keep him. I remember last year when they hired Graham and people were asking if Pitt could get a third crack at it after the Miami OH guy was fired.

Sea Ray
12-15-2011, 04:10 PM
Is Pittsburgh season done or are they headed to a Bowl? I assume they're done

nmculbreth
12-15-2011, 04:49 PM
Is Pittsburgh season done or are they headed to a Bowl? I assume they're done

They're playing in the BBVA Compass Bowl in Birmingham vs. SMU.

Which is all the proof that you need that there are way too many bowl games.

IslandRed
12-15-2011, 05:44 PM
They're playing in the BBVA Compass Bowl in Birmingham vs. SMU.

Which is all the proof that you need that there are way too many bowl games.

Pshaw. There's no such thing as too much football. Especially on the eve of the long, dark, no-college-football virtual winter.

(No, I'm not going to watch Pitt-SMU either, but other people might, and that's cool.)

Sea Ray
12-16-2011, 09:46 AM
They're playing in the BBVA Compass Bowl in Birmingham vs. SMU.

Which is all the proof that you need that there are way too many bowl games.

If that's the case then he must still have contact with his players. That makes this text all the more lame

Homer Bailey
01-05-2012, 01:13 AM
YOU'RE WELCOME, BIG EAST. Now we're done keeping you relevant.

Sincerely,

WVU

Stray
01-05-2012, 01:36 AM
YOU'RE WELCOME, BIG EAST. Now we're done keeping you relevant.

Sincerely,

WVU

If you were the only team keeping us relevant you would have won the conference more. First BCS game as a Big East winner since what, 07?

You guys do play well when you get there, and that was a nice win tonight. We'll be fine without ya, good luck in the Big 12 :thumbup:

Boston Red
01-05-2012, 02:42 AM
YOU'RE WELCOME, BIG EAST. Now we're done keeping you relevant.

Sincerely,

WVU

What is WV planning to do in its next two seasons in the Big East then?

wolfboy
01-05-2012, 09:08 AM
YOU'RE WELCOME, BIG EAST. Now we're done keeping you relevant.

Sincerely,

WVU

Appreciate the concern, but they'll be just fine without you. I think Boise State's two BCS wins will be more than enough. Not to mention Houston made a nice showing this year by throttling a B1G team.

Two big questions remain though:

1. How will WVU football stay relevant in the Big 12? I sure hope taking Missouri's place with an annual trip to the Independence Bowl cuts it.

2. How is the Big East going to replace the class and dignity WVU fans bring to the table?

Homer Bailey
01-05-2012, 11:40 AM
If you were the only team keeping us relevant you would have won the conference more. First BCS game as a Big East winner since what, 07?

You guys do play well when you get there, and that was a nice win tonight. We'll be fine without ya, good luck in the Big 12 :thumbup:

WVU has won the Big East and won a BCS bowl in 3 of the last 4 seasons where Bill Stewart was not the head coach. One man is responsible for the three year lull WVU experienced, and it's painfully obvious.


What is WV planning to do in its next two seasons in the Big East then?

WVU will be in the Big 12 next year, and the Big East can't do anything about it.


Appreciate the concern, but they'll be just fine without you. I think Boise State's two BCS wins will be more than enough. Not to mention Houston made a nice showing this year by throttling a B1G team.

Two big questions remain though:

1. How will WVU football stay relevant in the Big 12? I sure hope taking Missouri's place with an annual trip to the Independence Bowl cuts it.

2. How is the Big East going to replace the class and dignity WVU fans bring to the table?

WVU will be just fine in the Big 12, as long as Holgorsen is around.

And I think San Diego states rabid fanbase will more than make up for the WVU fanbase leaving the conference ;).

WVRed
01-05-2012, 11:51 AM
Appreciate the concern, but they'll be just fine without you. I think Boise State's two BCS wins will be more than enough. Not to mention Houston made a nice showing this year by throttling a B1G team.

Two big questions remain though:

1. How will WVU football stay relevant in the Big 12? I sure hope taking Missouri's place with an annual trip to the Independence Bowl cuts it.

2. How is the Big East going to replace the class and dignity WVU fans bring to the table?

Outside of the Big East becoming the Big East of the Pacific Ocean, WVU to the Big 12 is probably the worst move out of all the conference moves. The revenue concerns are understandable, but travel is going to be a nightmare. Football won't be so bad, but basketball and especially non-revenue sports are going to have it rough.

WVU has one advantage going in, and that is Dana Holgorsen. Holgs already knows Texas and has started a pipeline of recruiting in that area. That being said, WVU won't get the best recruits there and will likely settle for 3-4 star recruits. Any top recruit will likely come from West Virginia (Josh Jenkins is the only five star recruit churned out of the state lately), Ohio (assuming they don't commit to tOSU), Maryland, Pennsylvania, or any bordering states.

The question is how long can WVU keep Holgorsen around? As mentioned in the other thread, I don't know the answer to that, but with Holgs having ties to Texas it will make it interesting. WVU isn't going to get the best recruits in Texas and Oklahoma due to state school competition and trying to sell them on playing in the mountains. If one of those jobs opened up, offered more money than what WVU could match, and offered him the opportunity to win a lot easier than at WVU, I think he would listen.

Make no mistake, Holgorsen's value just went up after last nights win.

wolfboy
01-05-2012, 12:27 PM
And I think San Diego states rabid fanbase will more than make up for the WVU fanbase leaving the conference ;).

Jabs aside, I've never had a problem with WVU's fanbase. My experiences at games have been positive. It was a great win last night for both WVU and the Big East. Maybe now, the focus turns to the real BCS pretender - the ACC.

wolfboy
01-05-2012, 12:33 PM
Outside of the Big East becoming the Big East of the Pacific Ocean, WVU to the Big 12 is probably the worst move out of all the conference moves. The revenue concerns are understandable, but travel is going to be a nightmare. Football won't be so bad, but basketball and especially non-revenue sports are going to have it rough.

At least the Big East picked up several teams to make a "western" division. As it stands, WVU is on an island, which speaks to your travel concerns.

I'm sure WVU fans are also (or should be) concerned about the future stability of the B12. Personally, I don't think we've seen the end of the rumored Texas, Texas Tech, Oklahoma and Oklahoma State departure from last fall. If that eventually happens, you've got an incredibly thin B12 with no one left to poach. Unless they can fix the Longhorn Network revenue issues, I'd be worried about long term viability.

Of course, who can blame WVU for leaving? Sometimes it makes sense to ditch a ship that's 3/4 submerged for another one that's just sprung a big leak.

WMR
01-05-2012, 12:45 PM
UL fans desperately want to join the B12. I still think the B12 is a better, more stable league to be in than Big East.

Stray
01-05-2012, 01:12 PM
WVU has won the Big East and won a BCS bowl in 3 of the last 4 seasons where Bill Stewart was not the head coach. One man is responsible for the three year lull WVU experienced, and it's painfully obvious.


Fair enough, and I don't necessarily disagree with you, but you don't really have any room to say you were the only one keeping us relevant when yesterday was the first BCS game since the 07 season. And you haven't even won the Big East outright since I don't remember when.

Cincinnati has won the conference 3 outta the last 4 years, and two of those were outright.

will5979
01-05-2012, 01:32 PM
Fair enough, and I don't necessarily disagree with you, but you don't really have any room to say you were the only one keeping us relevant when yesterday was the first BCS game since the 07 season. And you haven't even won the Big East outright since I don't remember when.

Cincinnati has won the conference 3 outta the last 4 years, and two of those were outright.

Outright titles don't mean squat! All that matters is winning your BCS Bowl, in that aspect we are 3-0, Cincy is 0-2. And no cheap shot to Cincy, that is 1 of 3 Big East teams (USF and Rutgers being the others) that I have the upmost respect for and I hate to see left behind. Hopefully the Big 12 will do another raid and pluck Cincy and USF from the Big East.

Cincy is a good natural rivalry for both teams that can easily travel to the road games, and USF is great for recruiting purposes.

Efh Loserville, I hope that revert back to CUSA.

wolfboy
01-05-2012, 01:34 PM
UL fans desperately want to join the B12. I still think the B12 is a better, more stable league to be in than Big East.

The B12 is unquestionably a better football conference. No argument here on that.

When WVU made the jump the B12 was definitely more stable, but I don't necessarily agree now. IIRC, the Big East finally increased its exit fee to an amount that will make departing members flinch a little. On the other hand, in the B12, Texas and Oklahoma can afford to leave at any time.

As a Big East fan, I don't feel great about a conference that's lost 3 key programs in the past year. As a B12 fan, I wouldn't feel great about a conference that's lost the same number over two years and could lose its two marquee programs at any time.

wolfboy
01-05-2012, 01:40 PM
Outright titles don't mean squat! All that matters is winning your BCS Bowl, in that aspect we are 3-0, Cincy is 0-2. And no cheap shot to Cincy, that is 1 of 3 Big East teams (USF and Rutgers being the others) that I have the upmost respect for and I hate to see left behind. Hopefully the Big 12 will do another raid and pluck Cincy and USF from the Big East.

Cincy is a good natural rivalry for both teams that can easily travel to the road games, and USF is great for recruiting purposes.

Efh Loserville, I hope that revert back to CUSA.


As a UC fan, I'm really sad to see WVU go, but I want no part of a move to the B12. Now that the Big East has finally added new members, I'm pretty happy with the conference (although I really preferred BYU over SDSU). Going into 2013, the Big East really represents the upper crop of mid majors in football, which is exactly what it should be. I think WVU has higher aspirations for its football program, so maybe the B12 is a better fit. UC will never spend the money it will take to compete in the B12, so I think it would be a terrible fit. On the other hand, they can compete quite well in the new Big East as they've done in the past.

Homer Bailey
01-05-2012, 02:50 PM
Fair enough, and I don't necessarily disagree with you, but you don't really have any room to say you were the only one keeping us relevant when yesterday was the first BCS game since the 07 season. And you haven't even won the Big East outright since I don't remember when.

Cincinnati has won the conference 3 outta the last 4 years, and two of those were outright.

During WVU's down (Stewart) period, no one else in the conference stepped and performed, particularly the embarrassments in the BCS bowls. WVU is the only Big East team that has performed on the national stage since VT, BC, and Miami took off (aside from UL's one good season).

HotCorner
01-05-2012, 03:20 PM
During WVU's down (Stewart) period, no one else in the conference stepped and performed, particularly the embarrassments in the BCS bowls. WVU is the only Big East team that has performed on the national stage since VT, BC, and Miami took off (aside from UL's one good season).

UC did have an undefeated regular season. They were seconds/inches from playing in the National Championship game.

We all know what happened. Kelly bolted for ND. The Cats got throttled by the Gators in Tim Tebow's final college game.

nmculbreth
01-05-2012, 04:16 PM
During WVU's down (Stewart) period, no one else in the conference stepped and performed, particularly the embarrassments in the BCS bowls. WVU is the only Big East team that has performed on the national stage since VT, BC, and Miami took off (aside from UL's one good season).

Point of order: does getting shellacked by LSU at home count as performing on the national stage?

West Virginia is a nice program, one which will be missed by the Big East, but these delusions of grandeur are downright laughable.

While we're omitting the Bill Stewart era should we also forget the ten year period before VT, FSU, BC and Miami took off for the ACC where the saviors of the Big East finished in the top 25 exactly once and whose sole bowl win came in the Music City Bowl?

West Virginia had a nice run under Rich Rodriguez, beating up on dregs of the Big East and the call-ups from Conference USA. It's funny how once Rich Rod left town and the CUSA transplants started to improve their play that the dominance of our great conference savior started to wane.

will5979
01-05-2012, 04:56 PM
Point of order: does getting shellacked by LSU at home count as performing on the national stage?

West Virginia is a nice program, one which will be missed by the Big East, but these delusions of grandeur are downright laughable.

While we're omitting the Bill Stewart era should we also forget the ten year period before VT, FSU, BC and Miami took off for the ACC where the saviors of the Big East finished in the top 25 exactly once and whose sole bowl win came in the Music City Bowl?

West Virginia had a nice run under Rich Rodriguez, beating up on dregs of the Big East and the call-ups from Conference USA. It's funny how once Rich Rod left town and the CUSA transplants started to improve their play that the dominance of our great conference savior started to wane.

Being 12th on the all time wins list plus 5th on the BCS wins list is hardly a delusion of grandeur. We are that damn good! :p

WVRed
01-05-2012, 10:18 PM
Being 12th on the all time wins list plus 5th on the BCS wins list is hardly a delusion of grandeur. We are that damn good! :p

Shame the rest of the nation disagrees:

htthttp://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/p480x480/386313_909190727753_42201512_38263074_971427036_n. jpg

Of course I cringed when I saw this poll. For a school that thrives on an "its us against the world" mentality where they are hated by everyone, this only adds more fuel to the fire.

IMO, I would rank WVU as a four star program out of five. The only reason I say four is because 1. Lack of national championships and 2. No real recruiting ground to speak of. West Virginia isn't rich in football talent so any talent they harness usually comes from neighboring states or pipelines in either Florida or Texas.

Boston Red
01-05-2012, 10:19 PM
WVU will be in the Big 12 next year, and the Big East can't do anything about it.


I wouldn't bank on it.

Slyder
01-05-2012, 11:06 PM
I wouldn't bank on it.

The best way I've heard this explain. You pay someone to pave a drive way they get it half done and bolt. You sue, court tells them to pay you x dollars for the unfinished work. Thats what will happen in this case should it get close to the deadline. The RI court especially has no means to enforce any injunction it files and the WV judge would be writing his own political death certificate ruling that WVU must play in the Big East for the 27 months.

Plus this I would say would be like you getting offered a better position in another company and having to stay at the crappy job after you accept the new one.

Boston Red
01-05-2012, 11:47 PM
The best way I've heard this explain. You pay someone to pave a drive way they get it half done and bolt. You sue, court tells them to pay you x dollars for the unfinished work. Thats what will happen in this case should it get close to the deadline. The RI court especially has no means to enforce any injunction it files and the WV judge would be writing his own political death certificate ruling that WVU must play in the Big East for the 27 months.

Plus this I would say would be like you getting offered a better position in another company and having to stay at the crappy job after you accept the new one.

You may not be familiar with how equitable remedies work, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if we see them used here.

And a court certainly can't force WV to show up to play a Big East schedule, but they can definitely prevent WV from joining the Big XII in the meantime. Just like if you signed a valid non-compete with that crappy company, they couldn't force you to keep showing up, but they could damn sure keep you from taking that better one under the right circumstances. This case is nothing like the driveway paving one.

will5979
01-06-2012, 08:16 AM
Shame the rest of the nation disagrees:

htthttp://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/p480x480/386313_909190727753_42201512_38263074_971427036_n. jpg

Of course I cringed when I saw this poll. For a school that thrives on an "its us against the world" mentality where they are hated by everyone, this only adds more fuel to the fire.

IMO, I would rank WVU as a four star program out of five. The only reason I say four is because 1. Lack of national championships and 2. No real recruiting ground to speak of. West Virginia isn't rich in football talent so any talent they harness usually comes from neighboring states or pipelines in either Florida or Texas.

Spot on, I do have to agree with everything you said. 4 star program is what we are and I think that we are trying everything in our power to bring home just 1 Mythical National Championship. Everyone goes on about how the odds are better in basketball but you know as well as I do in the state of West Virginia the only sport that matters to a wild rabid fan salivating at the mouth for a National Title is WVU Football!

Basically what I'm saying is for a lot of West Virginians a National Championship in basketball would be great, but the state would burn down in celebration when the football team brings one home! :laugh:

WVRed
01-06-2012, 10:07 AM
Spot on, I do have to agree with everything you said. 4 star program is what we are and I think that we are trying everything in our power to bring home just 1 Mythical National Championship. Everyone goes on about how the odds are better in basketball but you know as well as I do in the state of West Virginia the only sport that matters to a wild rabid fan salivating at the mouth for a National Title is WVU Football!

Basically what I'm saying is for a lot of West Virginians a National Championship in basketball would be great, but the state would burn down in celebration when the football team brings one home! :laugh:

I think its equal now. Huggins has brought basketball to the forefront of the state and really Huggins is the only one that could have done it. If you need proof, check back to the Kentucky-West Virginia Elite Eight. If anything, I would say football is 1A and basketball is 1B.

I only say WVU is a four star program because they aren't at that five star, and I don't know if they will ever be. If a five star opening comes up (Alabama, Michigan), you have to worry whether or not your four star coach will jump ship, case in point Rich Rodriguez. WVU might luck into a coach who will stay for 20 years (Nehlen), but you have to think that most will use it as a stepping stone for the next big job.

As for basketball, I think WVU is going to have it hard in basketball. They won't be going through the gauntlet of the Big East, but traveling will even it out. Imagine having to play in Lawrence against Kansas on Thursday night and then back to Morgantown on Saturday to prep against Baylor. The Big East is a brutal conference, but I think a lot of people are underestimating the rest of the Big 12. TCU, Oklahoma, and Iowa State might be the most winnable games in the conference.

bucksfan2
01-06-2012, 11:42 AM
I think its equal now. Huggins has brought basketball to the forefront of the state and really Huggins is the only one that could have done it. If you need proof, check back to the Kentucky-West Virginia Elite Eight. If anything, I would say football is 1A and basketball is 1B.

I only say WVU is a four star program because they aren't at that five star, and I don't know if they will ever be. If a five star opening comes up (Alabama, Michigan), you have to worry whether or not your four star coach will jump ship, case in point Rich Rodriguez. WVU might luck into a coach who will stay for 20 years (Nehlen), but you have to think that most will use it as a stepping stone for the next big job.

I think Rich Rod leaving pretty much sealed the deal that WVU isn't an elite school. You don't have a home grown, alumni coach bolt for Michigan if he thought WVU was a top tier school. I think the jump to the Big 12 will help them in terms of national recognition because I think most people looked down on the Big East as a football conference.


As for basketball, I think WVU is going to have it hard in basketball. They won't be going through the gauntlet of the Big East, but traveling will even it out. Imagine having to play in Lawrence against Kansas on Thursday night and then back to Morgantown on Saturday to prep against Baylor. The Big East is a brutal conference, but I think a lot of people are underestimating the rest of the Big 12. TCU, Oklahoma, and Iowa State might be the most winnable games in the conference.

I don't really think this is that big of a deal. How is that different from UK having to go down to Florida and then be back in Lexington to play Tennessee? It would be something else if it was a bus trip but I would imagine for most of their games they will fly. Heck in the Big East WVU could have to play in Tampa and then in Syracuse in a weeks span.

WMR
01-06-2012, 11:51 AM
The real terror for travel is going to be the new Big "East".

Homer Bailey
01-06-2012, 12:04 PM
I would never say that WVU is amongst the elite of the elite in college football. We don't have the tradition of an Alabama, LSU, Texas, Oklahoma, OSU, USC, etc. We don't pull top recruits, have an NC, etc. (basically everything WVRed said).

I would agree with the 4 out of 5 stars.

Homer Bailey
01-06-2012, 12:06 PM
You may not be familiar with how equitable remedies work, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if we see them used here.

And a court certainly can't force WV to show up to play a Big East schedule, but they can definitely prevent WV from joining the Big XII in the meantime. Just like if you signed a valid non-compete with that crappy company, they couldn't force you to keep showing up, but they could damn sure keep you from taking that better one under the right circumstances. This case is nothing like the driveway paving one.

I've not read a single piece of literature that makes me think anyone but Oliver Luck could prevent WVU from playing in the Big XII next year. Do you have any?

WMR
01-06-2012, 12:07 PM
Hasn't WVU already paid half of their early exit fee?

Made it seem like a done deal the way I read it.

Also, do you really want to keep WVU in your conference when every game they play is pretty much guaranteed to become a B12 commercial?

WVRed
01-06-2012, 12:50 PM
I've not read a single piece of literature that makes me think anyone but Oliver Luck could prevent WVU from playing in the Big XII next year. Do you have any?

Or a rogue judge who will likely get impeached from office if not voted out in the next election. Getting the trial thrown out in Providence all but sealed it.

Sea Ray
01-07-2012, 09:02 AM
I wouldn't look at a SportsNation poll as proof of anything but recruiting does show quite a bit. Right now W Va is 20th in recruiting and UC is 22nd. I think that's about right. Whether that makes them a national power depends on your perspective but I think W Va as about the 20th best football program in America is fair

Homer Bailey
01-07-2012, 04:27 PM
I wouldn't look at a SportsNation poll as proof of anything but recruiting does show quite a bit. Right now W Va is 20th in recruiting and UC is 22nd. I think that's about right. Whether that makes them a national power depends on your perspective but I think W Va as about the 20th best football program in America is fair

Recruiting rankings mean next to nothing, IMO.

WVRed
01-07-2012, 11:19 PM
Recruiting rankings mean next to nothing, IMO.

Pretty much.

Recruiting isn't about the school, its about the pipeline you have of the players coming into those schools. West Virginia is a state that is one of the poorest in the nation, which means that there isn't a lot of talent in the HS ranks in any sport. WVU has to get the talent by recruiting from neighboring states that have talent (and its usually leftovers) or have an assistant that has a pipeline into that state. That's where Doc Holliday was so instrumental during his time at WVU in that he recruited in Florida under Urban Meyer and Florida is one of the top two states for recruits (Texas being the other, and WVU is making inroads there).

If you're a coach, you know that you can leave a four star school for a five that has the pipeline that you can get the top recruits from and get paid a lot more (and have a ton of headaches on top of that). If you're Holgorsen and you have to settle for the leftovers in Ohio, Texas, and Florida and fight for the best recruits in Pennsylvania and Maryland when you can accept a job in, say, Tennessee if Derek Dooley is let go next season, you can pick and choose from the best in-state talent that Tennessee has to offer. (Not starting a rumor, just an example)

Now there are exceptions to this rule. Kentucky in basketball is a prime example. Kentucky is like West Virginia in that both are poor states with small talent pools to choose from. Kentucky has the seven national championships to boot as well as an innovative coach that they are likely to keep for as long as he will stay.

There are only two ways WVU can reach elite (five star) status, IMO:

1. The economy improves within the state, jobs are created, people flock to West Virginia and more talent comes from within the state. WVU lands these recruits and starts winning at a higher level.

2. WVU lucks into a coach who stays and they win some national championships during his tenure. Don Nehlen set the pace for WVU, but outside of the brief run by Rodriguez and now Holgorsen, they need somebody who will stay as long as Nehlen did and accomplish more. I don't know if Holgorsen will do that though.

Slyder
01-07-2012, 11:40 PM
Pretty much.

Recruiting isn't about the school, its about the pipeline you have of the players coming into those schools. West Virginia is a state that is one of the poorest in the nation, which means that there isn't a lot of talent in the HS ranks in any sport. WVU has to get the talent by recruiting from neighboring states that have talent (and its usually leftovers) or have an assistant that has a pipeline into that state. That's where Doc Holliday was so instrumental during his time at WVU in that he recruited in Florida under Urban Meyer and Florida is one of the top two states for recruits (Texas being the other, and WVU is making inroads there).

If you're a coach, you know that you can leave a four star school for a five that has the pipeline that you can get the top recruits from and get paid a lot more (and have a ton of headaches on top of that). If you're Holgorsen and you have to settle for the leftovers in Ohio, Texas, and Florida and fight for the best recruits in Pennsylvania and Maryland when you can accept a job in, say, Tennessee if Derek Dooley is let go next season, you can pick and choose from the best in-state talent that Tennessee has to offer. (Not starting a rumor, just an example)

Now there are exceptions to this rule. Kentucky in basketball is a prime example. Kentucky is like West Virginia in that both are poor states with small talent pools to choose from. Kentucky has the seven national championships to boot as well as an innovative coach that they are likely to keep for as long as he will stay.

There are only two ways WVU can reach elite (five star) status, IMO:

1. The economy improves within the state, jobs are created, people flock to West Virginia and more talent comes from within the state. WVU lands these recruits and starts winning at a higher level.

2. WVU lucks into a coach who stays and they win some national championships during his tenure. Don Nehlen set the pace for WVU, but outside of the brief run by Rodriguez and now Holgorsen, they need somebody who will stay as long as Nehlen did and accomplish more. I don't know if Holgorsen will do that though.

Holgorsen's expectations would be rather high at the new school, just look at how many people schools like ND, Alabama go through. You have an opportunity to take a program like WVU and make it YOUR job, you have a chance to become Paterno, Osbourne, Bryant, etc for a program or become one of many at a 5 star school if you are successful and have no where near the leash you would at WVU. Example Peterson at Boise.

WVRed
01-08-2012, 09:53 AM
Holgorsen's expectations would be rather high at the new school, just look at how many people schools like ND, Alabama go through. You have an opportunity to take a program like WVU and make it YOUR job, you have a chance to become Paterno, Osbourne, Bryant, etc for a program or become one of many at a 5 star school if you are successful and have no where near the leash you would at WVU. Example Peterson at Boise.

FWIW, Bear Bryant bounced around at different schools (Texas A&M, Kentucky), although Osbourne and Paterno I would agree with.

Slyder
01-08-2012, 10:46 AM
Its name association, ask the average football fan what school comes to mind when you mention Bear Bryant or Bobby Bowden and the schools that would come to mind are Alabama and Florida State, if asked about any other schools they coached at I figure most (outside of fans of those schools and football nuts) would not know where else they coached.

Sea Ray
01-09-2012, 03:37 PM
Pretty much.

Recruiting isn't about the school, its about the pipeline you have of the players coming into those schools. West Virginia is a state that is one of the poorest in the nation, which means that there isn't a lot of talent in the HS ranks in any sport. WVU has to get the talent by recruiting from neighboring states that have talent (and its usually leftovers) or have an assistant that has a pipeline into that state. That's where Doc Holliday was so instrumental during his time at WVU in that he recruited in Florida under Urban Meyer and Florida is one of the top two states for recruits (Texas being the other, and WVU is making inroads there).

If you're a coach, you know that you can leave a four star school for a five that has the pipeline that you can get the top recruits from and get paid a lot more (and have a ton of headaches on top of that). If you're Holgorsen and you have to settle for the leftovers in Ohio, Texas, and Florida and fight for the best recruits in Pennsylvania and Maryland when you can accept a job in, say, Tennessee if Derek Dooley is let go next season, you can pick and choose from the best in-state talent that Tennessee has to offer. (Not starting a rumor, just an example)

Now there are exceptions to this rule. Kentucky in basketball is a prime example. Kentucky is like West Virginia in that both are poor states with small talent pools to choose from. Kentucky has the seven national championships to boot as well as an innovative coach that they are likely to keep for as long as he will stay.

There are only two ways WVU can reach elite (five star) status, IMO:

1. The economy improves within the state, jobs are created, people flock to West Virginia and more talent comes from within the state. WVU lands these recruits and starts winning at a higher level.

2. WVU lucks into a coach who stays and they win some national championships during his tenure. Don Nehlen set the pace for WVU, but outside of the brief run by Rodriguez and now Holgorsen, they need somebody who will stay as long as Nehlen did and accomplish more. I don't know if Holgorsen will do that though.

Holgorsen is a very impressive coach and I wish the Mountaineers well in the Big 12 but I don't understand the problem with my saying that W Va for whatever reason is about the 20th best program. I don't think they attained a status any higher than that no matter your criteria

Homer Bailey
01-09-2012, 03:42 PM
Holgorsen is a very impressive coach and I wish the Mountaineers well in the Big 12 but I don't understand the problem with my saying that W Va for whatever reason is about the 20th best program. I don't think they attained a status any higher than that no matter your criteria

8th in BCS bowl wins, 14th in all-time wins. What criteria do you use to knock them all the way down to 20? I certainly hope it's not recruiting rankings.

Sea Ray
01-09-2012, 03:54 PM
8th in BCS bowl wins, 14th in all-time wins. What criteria do you use to knock them all the way down to 20? I certainly hope it's not recruiting rankings.

It's been a long time since I'd bet on them vs the #8 team in the country. Heck this yr they wouldn't even have beaten UC with a healthy Collaros and I don't think of them as a #8 school either. I'm not going back to the days of Hostetler in considering this anymore than I'm going back to the days of Joe Montana in evaluating where ND is today as a football program either. I think #20 is very fair. I think recruiting is a much more valid test than all time wins.

Slyder
01-09-2012, 10:01 PM
It's been a long time since I'd bet on them vs the #8 team in the country. Heck this yr they wouldn't even have beaten UC with a healthy Collaros and I don't think of them as a #8 school either. I'm not going back to the days of Hostetler in considering this anymore than I'm going back to the days of Joe Montana in evaluating where ND is today as a football program either. I think #20 is very fair. I think recruiting is a much more valid test than all time wins.

They were doing a pretty good job while Collaros was in there.

Homer Bailey
01-10-2012, 12:35 AM
I think recruiting is a much more valid test than all time wins.

I just wanted to highlight this statement.

Winning on the field>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Winning some fictional rating system.

Why do you recruit? You recruit to WIN FOOTBALL GAMES. You don't recruit to win recruiting rankings.

WMR
01-10-2012, 07:37 AM
A Tennessee fan saying anything about anything right now is pretty damn funny. :lol:

Sea Ray
01-10-2012, 09:21 AM
I just wanted to highlight this statement.

Winning on the field>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Winning some fictional rating system.

Why do you recruit? You recruit to WIN FOOTBALL GAMES. You don't recruit to win recruiting rankings.

But all time wins?

Recruiting has much more to do with a team's success on the field today than a win they got in the 1921 Rose Bowl. All time wins don't impress me.

Well on second thought, Tennessee is #9 in all time wins:

http://collegefootball.about.com/od/schools/a/schools-wins.htm

If I were to come on here and brag about UT being a top ten program and then backed up my argument that they're #9 on the All Time wins list what kind of response do you think I'd get?

You know I'd get laughed out of here and the most kind thing said about me would be that I'm a homer. Well, think about that analogy before you continue down your present path...;)

Homer Bailey
01-10-2012, 10:57 AM
But all time wins?

Recruiting has much more to do with a team's success on the field today than a win they got in the 1921 Rose Bowl. All time wins don't impress me.

Well on second thought, Tennessee is #9 in all time wins:

http://collegefootball.about.com/od/schools/a/schools-wins.htm

If I were to come on here and brag about UT being a top ten program and then backed up my argument that they're #9 on the All Time wins list what kind of response do you think I'd get?

You know I'd get laughed out of here and the most kind thing said about me would be that I'm a homer. Well, think about that analogy before you continue down your present path...;)

Just because Tennessee is down now doesn't mean they aren't a top program in history. Of course, I think the past success, as well as the current success should be considered when evaluating a program. WVU certainly has a lot more history and tradition of a, say Boise State. Would you consider Boise State to have a better program than WVU?

WMR
01-10-2012, 11:01 AM
Derek Dooley will end up being a worse hire than Joker Phillips.

nmculbreth
01-10-2012, 11:13 AM
Just because Tennessee is down now doesn't mean they aren't a top program in history. Of course, I think the past success, as well as the current success should be considered when evaluating a program. WVU certainly has a lot more history and tradition of a, say Boise State. Would you consider Boise State to have a better program than WVU?

I think there is a difference between history and the quality of the program.

There are teams with a lot of tradition (Army, Navy, etc.) that can't be considered good programs in the current climate. Conversely there are schools like Boise State and Oregon that don't have a ton of tradition but have built great programs and figure to be successful going forward.

To answer the WVU vs. Boise State argument, I'd say that WVU clearly has the better history but Boise State has the better program. Boise has been more successful in recent history and are a far better bet to win a national championship in the near future.

Homer Bailey
01-10-2012, 11:46 AM
I think there is a difference between history and the quality of the program.

There are teams with a lot of tradition (Army, Navy, etc.) that can't be considered good programs in the current climate. Conversely there are schools like Boise State and Oregon that don't have a ton of tradition but have built great programs and figure to be successful going forward.

To answer the WVU vs. Boise State argument, I'd say that WVU clearly has the better history but Boise State has the better program. Boise has been more successful in recent history and are a far better bet to win a national championship in the near future.

PLEASE present your evidence of this.

Sea Ray
01-10-2012, 12:10 PM
Derek Dooley will end up being a worse hire than Joker Phillips.

Take it to the SEC thread and we can discuss it

Sea Ray
01-10-2012, 12:14 PM
Just because Tennessee is down now doesn't mean they aren't a top program in history. Of course, I think the past success, as well as the current success should be considered when evaluating a program. WVU certainly has a lot more history and tradition of a, say Boise State. Would you consider Boise State to have a better program than WVU?

As of right now, I'd say Boise does not have a better program than W Va but that may change after a few yrs in the Big East. If that happens it'll be long before they catch up to W Va in all time wins.

I don't care if Tenn is a top program in history. If they can't do any better than Derek Dooley, they're not a top program.

wolfboy
01-10-2012, 12:59 PM
PLEASE present your evidence of this.

I'll preface this by saying that these are numbers I compiled from different sources on the interwebs, so judge accordingly:

As you said, it's all about the wins, and West Virginia just can't compete with Boise here. Boise had the best winning percentage (.868) and more wins (112) than any program in college football last decade. Clear advantage here to Boise State. While there's an argument to be made that Boise faced inferior competition during that period, it's not exactly like West Virginia was racking up wins in the SEC either.

Boise has 2 BCS bowl wins to West Virginia's 3. While West Virginia has 1 more, it's impressive that Boise has two without the benefit of an AQ. Still, advantage to West Virginia.

From the 2000-2010 seasons, West Virginia had a 5-5 bowl record, while Boise had a record of 6-4. Slight advantage to Boise State.

Per ESPN, there are 15 current NFL players from Boise and 13 from West Virginia. Slight advantage to Boise State.

From 2000-2010 each program had the same number of All Americans. This is a wash.

Looks to me to be pretty evenly matched, if not a slight advantage to Boise.

Homer Bailey
01-10-2012, 01:48 PM
I'll preface this by saying that these are numbers I compiled from different sources on the interwebs, so judge accordingly:

As you said, it's all about the wins, and West Virginia just can't compete with Boise here. Boise had the best winning percentage (.868) and more wins (112) than any program in college football last decade. Clear advantage here to Boise State. While there's an argument to be made that Boise faced inferior competition during that period, it's not exactly like West Virginia was racking up wins in the SEC either.

Boise has 2 BCS bowl wins to West Virginia's 3. While West Virginia has 1 more, it's impressive that Boise has two without the benefit of an AQ. Still, advantage to West Virginia.

From the 2000-2010 seasons, West Virginia had a 5-5 bowl record, while Boise had a record of 6-4. Slight advantage to Boise State.

Per ESPN, there are 15 current NFL players from Boise and 13 from West Virginia. Slight advantage to Boise State.

From 2000-2010 each program had the same number of All Americans. This is a wash.

Looks to me to be pretty evenly matched, if not a slight advantage to Boise.

No one claims the Big East is a good football conference, but it is not even close to compare Boise State's schedule to WVU's. Per www.teamrankings.com, over the last 9 years, WVU's average SOS is 29, while Boise's is 56. Boise's SOS was over 60 during 4 of those years, and WVU's was never above 41.

Boise's quality wins over that period: UGA, VT, Oklahoma, Oregon (2)

WVU's: UGA, Oklahoma, Auburn, GT, Clemson

The quality of wins are pretty comparable.

WVU holds the edge with 3 BCS wins compared to 2, as noted.

I have trouble giving the overall bowl edge to Boise when 3 of their bowl wins are the Las Vegas Bowl (twice), and the Fort Worth bowl. There is a difference between playing in the Las Vegas Bowl and the Gator Bowl.

Admittedly, the Stewart years are a black eye for WVU football. Boise had more quality wins that I originally remembered, but I have a hard time calling Boise more successful over the last ten years than WVU. It will be interesting to see how things go for them in the Big East.

wolfboy
01-10-2012, 02:20 PM
No one claims the Big East is a good football conference, but it is not even close to compare Boise State's schedule to WVU's. Per www.teamrankings.com, over the last 9 years, WVU's average SOS is 29, while Boise's is 56. Boise's SOS was over 60 during 4 of those years, and WVU's was never above 41.

You'll get no argument from me, but it's hardly fair to blame Boise for this. I think they've tried to schedule good non-conference opponents, but that doesn't make much of a difference when your conference stinks.



Boise's quality wins over that period: UGA, VT, Oklahoma, Oregon (2)

WVU's: UGA, Oklahoma, Auburn, GT, Clemson

The quality of wins are pretty comparable.

I agree. They've both got a lot to be proud of in games against the big boys.




WVU holds the edge with 3 BCS wins compared to 2, as noted.

Pretty awesome for both programs if you ask me.


I have trouble giving the overall bowl edge to Boise when 3 of their bowl wins are the Las Vegas Bowl (twice), and the Fort Worth bowl. There is a difference between playing in the Las Vegas Bowl and the Gator Bowl.

Again, I agree with you, but it's really hard to blame Boise here. If you ask me, they got jobbed this year having to play Arizona State in the Las Vegas Bowl. Same can be said about last year's appearance in the Las Vegas Bowl. I mean, c'mon - they were #10 in the BCS rankings for crying out loud. They're a better team than their bowl appearances suggest and everyone knows it. Problem is, they've only been a D-1 program since 1996, and things like tradition and t.v. viewership matter.

And, I hate to mention it, but WVU did have its fair share of stinker bowls in the past decade: Music City Bowl, Continental Tire Bowl, Meineke Car Care Bowl, and Champs Sports Bowl.


Admittedly, the Stewart years are a black eye for WVU football. Boise had more quality wins that I originally remembered, but I have a hard time calling Boise more successful over the last ten years than WVU. It will be interesting to see how things go for them in the Big East.

As an outsider to both programs, I don't think it's an absurd argument to make though. Each one is a fantastic program and I wish the Big East could have them both.

Sea Ray
01-10-2012, 02:22 PM
No one claims the Big East is a good football conference, but it is not even close to compare Boise State's schedule to WVU's. Per www.teamrankings.com, over the last 9 years, WVU's average SOS is 29, while Boise's is 56. Boise's SOS was over 60 during 4 of those years, and WVU's was never above 41.

Boise's quality wins over that period: UGA, VT, Oklahoma, Oregon (2)

WVU's: UGA, Oklahoma, Auburn, GT, Clemson

The quality of wins are pretty comparable.

WVU holds the edge with 3 BCS wins compared to 2, as noted.

I have trouble giving the overall bowl edge to Boise when 3 of their bowl wins are the Las Vegas Bowl (twice), and the Fort Worth bowl. There is a difference between playing in the Las Vegas Bowl and the Gator Bowl.

Admittedly, the Stewart years are a black eye for WVU football. Boise had more quality wins that I originally remembered, but I have a hard time calling Boise more successful over the last ten years than WVU. It will be interesting to see how things go for them in the Big East.

What role do you think all time wins should have in this conversation? I see you didn't mention it

As for the Big East I think it's a wash "trading" W Va for Boise except for the travel factor

dabvu2498
01-10-2012, 02:37 PM
Per www.teamrankings.com

I have a hard time calling Boise more successful over the last ten years than WVU.

Interestingly enough, using the "Overall Power Ratings" from the site you provided, Boise finished ahead of WVU in 7 of those 9 seasons

Homer Bailey
01-10-2012, 03:22 PM
You'll get no argument from me, but it's hardly fair to blame Boise for this. I think they've tried to schedule good non-conference opponents, but that doesn't make much of a difference when your conference stinks.



I agree. They've both got a lot to be proud of in games against the big boys.





Pretty awesome for both programs if you ask me.



Again, I agree with you, but it's really hard to blame Boise here. If you ask me, they got jobbed this year having to play Arizona State in the Las Vegas Bowl. Same can be said about last year's appearance in the Las Vegas Bowl. I mean, c'mon - they were #10 in the BCS rankings for crying out loud. They're a better team than their bowl appearances suggest and everyone knows it. Problem is, they've only been a D-1 program since 1996, and things like tradition and t.v. viewership matter.

And, I hate to mention it, but WVU did have its fair share of stinker bowls in the past decade: Music City Bowl, Continental Tire Bowl, Meineke Car Care Bowl, and Champs Sports Bowl.



As an outsider to both programs, I don't think it's an absurd argument to make though. Each one is a fantastic program and I wish the Big East could have them both.

I'll admit, the programs are a lot closer in terms of accomplishments than I had thought when I made the comment. I was mostly thinking the 3 WVU BCS wins over AQ conference champs were much more impressive than the 2 BCS wins by Boise, only one being over a team from a big conference.


What role do you think all time wins should have in this conversation? I see you didn't mention it

As for the Big East I think it's a wash "trading" W Va for Boise except for the travel factor

Well, wolf and I were discussing current success. As he conceded, all time success between the two programs is not comparable.

As for the wash comment, I think we have to see if Boise can compete in a BCS conference, even if it is the Big East, before we can say its a wash. WVU has won at least a share of the Big East title 6 of the last 9 years.


Interestingly enough, using the "Overall Power Ratings" from the site you provided, Boise finished ahead of WVU in 7 of those 9 seasons

I'm not sure that means anything.

Sea Ray
01-10-2012, 03:41 PM
Would you agree when discussing programs that current success is much more important than all time wins?

Homer Bailey
01-10-2012, 03:49 PM
Would you agree when discussing programs that current success is much more important than all time wins?

Sure. This is also the most successful run of WVU football in their history. Three huge bowl wins in the last 7 years, conference championships in 6 of the last 9 years, 2 top 5 finishes, etc. I'd say there are only 10 or so programs that have had as good of a run as WVU has over the last 7 or so years, and that includes the ridiculous Bill Stewart era.

Sea Ray
01-10-2012, 04:05 PM
Sure. This is also the most successful run of WVU football in their history. Three huge bowl wins in the last 7 years, conference championships in 6 of the last 9 years, 2 top 5 finishes, etc. I'd say there are only 10 or so programs that have had as good of a run as WVU has over the last 7 or so years, and that includes the ridiculous Bill Stewart era.

The Big 12 will be a good test of your faith in them. Good luck

nmculbreth
01-10-2012, 04:42 PM
PLEASE present your evidence of this.

In the past decade Boise State has finished higher in the AP and Coaches Bowl eight out of ten years. Additionally in that time span Boise State has finished in the top ten four times vs. only two top ten finishes for West Virginia.

In the past four years Boise States gone out of conference and beaten Oregon twice, won at Georgia and beat Virginia Tech on a "neutral" site in Washington DC. In that same span they've three games, all of which came against opponents who finished the season in the top fifteen teams in the country.

The BCS bowl argument is a strawman argument given that the only way Boise State (or for that matter any non-BCS school) gets a shot at playing in a BCS game is by running the table. The fact that WVU was able to play in the Orange Bowl with three losses doesn't make them better than a one loss Boise State team that got shafted and had to play in the Las Vegas bowl.

dabvu2498
01-10-2012, 05:12 PM
I'm not sure that means anything.

And yet, you thought that the strength of schedule rating from that site meant something.

Homer Bailey
01-10-2012, 06:10 PM
And yet, you thought that the strength of schedule rating from that site meant something.

SOS was relevant to our discussion on winning percentage.

What do those power rankings tell us?

dabvu2498
01-10-2012, 07:53 PM
SOS was relevant to our discussion on winning percentage.

What do those power rankings tell us?

That based on whatever formula that website uses, Boise has had better seasons than WVU in 7 of the last 9 years.

wolfboy
01-10-2012, 08:50 PM
At some point you have to realize that you're not comparing apples to apples and they're both great programs.

dabvu2498
01-10-2012, 09:17 PM
At some point you have to realize that you're not comparing apples to apples and they're both great programs.

I would agree with your conclusion, but I disagree that it's not a valid comparison. They both compete in the FBS, right?

But yeah, both great programs. If they were stocks, I'd be a "buy" on both of them.

I had an issue with the idea that Boise hasn't been as "successful" over the last 10 years as WVU.

12-1 (and so on) is more successful than 10-3 (and so on). Finishing higher in the polls and computer rankings is more successful. A quick wiki search shows 16 former Broncos and 13 former Mountaineers on current NFL rosters. That's more successful. The difference in their level of play, strength of schedule, etc., isn't that great.

Homer Bailey
01-11-2012, 09:35 AM
I would agree with your conclusion, but I disagree that it's not a valid comparison. They both compete in the FBS, right?

But yeah, both great programs. If they were stocks, I'd be a "buy" on both of them.

I had an issue with the idea that Boise hasn't been as "successful" over the last 10 years as WVU.

12-1 (and so on) is more successful than 10-3 (and so on). Finishing higher in the polls and computer rankings is more successful. A quick wiki search shows 16 former Broncos and 13 former Mountaineers on current NFL rosters. That's more successful. The difference in their level of play, strength of schedule, etc., isn't that great.

I've since rescinded my comment that the success of the two programs is not comparable. I still feel WVU has been much more successful because they've played a much, much more difficult schedule. Final rankings are based a lot on record, and Boise has a good record because of the schedule they played. If they played in the SEC this year, I certainly don't think there is any way they would have finished 6th in the country, or whatever they finished. The same logic applies to WVU, but they've proven it in a much, much tougher conference, even if it is the Big Least.

wolfboy
01-11-2012, 10:29 AM
I would agree with your conclusion, but I disagree that it's not a valid comparison. They both compete in the FBS, right?

But yeah, both great programs. If they were stocks, I'd be a "buy" on both of them.

I had an issue with the idea that Boise hasn't been as "successful" over the last 10 years as WVU.

12-1 (and so on) is more successful than 10-3 (and so on). Finishing higher in the polls and computer rankings is more successful. A quick wiki search shows 16 former Broncos and 13 former Mountaineers on current NFL rosters. That's more successful. The difference in their level of play, strength of schedule, etc., isn't that great.

If Boise had a stronger schedule, that would probably come through a stronger conference. A stronger conference means a better TV deal. A better TV deal means better exposure for recruiting. Better recruiting means more wins????

If West Virginia played in a lesser conference, their schedule wouldn't be as tough. If their schedule wasn't as tough, they'd have more wins. If they had more wins, they'd be ranked higher. Without AQ status they make ??? BCS games.

Of course, everything I said above is just mere speculation and conjecture. Not all programs and not all conferences are created equal in college football. Given that reality, I just don't agree that it's an apples to apples comparison.

texasdave
02-14-2012, 07:06 PM
Adios, Mountaineers. And leave the 20 million on your way out the door.


West Virginia University announced Tuesday it has settled a lawsuit with the Big East for an unspecified amount, clearing the way for the conference power Mountaineers to join the Big 12 in July in time for the fall football season.

http://www.cnnsi.com/2012/football/ncaa/02/14/west-virginia-big-east.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a3&eref=sihp

Homer Bailey
02-15-2012, 08:48 PM
Adios, Mountaineers. And leave the 20 million on your way out the door.



http://www.cnnsi.com/2012/football/ncaa/02/14/west-virginia-big-east.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a3&eref=sihp

It's weird to be leaving, but it had to be done. I'll miss the Pitt rivalry, and the geography, but I'm excited for the challenge of the Big XII. Playing Oklahoma and Texas every year sure beats the heck out of playing Rutgers and UConn.

The $20 million will be made back in no time. I'm hardly worried about that.

Stray
02-16-2012, 04:00 PM
Everything about the conference is going to be weird now. I think the level of play and competitiveness will be fine, but the logistics are all crazy. It's hard to develop any real rivalries or hate when you're literally playing all sorts of random schools scattered all over the place. Ah well, unfortunately that's all part of.the college football business.

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