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cinreds21
09-03-2011, 02:16 PM
The day after punching out 12 batters, the Cincinnati Reds have recalled Edinson Volquez from Triple-A Louisville. Volquez threw seven innings, giving up two runs, one earned, and punching out 12 while only walking two.

Matt700wlw
09-03-2011, 03:09 PM
Oh goody.

mth123
09-03-2011, 03:20 PM
Best Case Scenario, Volquez steps into the rotation and pitches well during September upping his trade value and piquing the interest of some team and the Reds hold for some value or keep him as a candidate.

Worst Case Scenario, Volquez steps into the rotation and pitches well during September covincing the Reds that he's the answer and no rotation moves are needed this winter.

The team has proven to be just foolish enough to rely on him again and they shouldn't no matter how he does IMO.

WVRedsFan
09-03-2011, 03:28 PM
Oh fudge. When will they learn. He is always lights out in Louisville, and then the FO thinks he's Cy Young. He'll probably have a couple of good starts and then go back to his norm, thus ruining his trade value while Dusty rolls him out every five days in hopes he gets it back.

thatcoolguy_22
09-03-2011, 03:36 PM
I hope he comes up and succeeds. If the Reds can get a good return, trade him. If not, keep him. The further he is from TJ surgery, the better he will perform.

RED VAN HOT
09-03-2011, 03:39 PM
This is no surprise. They left him in Louisville on the first to get one more start. I think the Reds sent a message by leaving him there as long as they did. The problem is not in his arm. September will determine his future as a Red. Honestly, I don't see any other top of the rotation options.

Tom Servo
09-03-2011, 03:40 PM
http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l0mqvhAKdj1qzmowao1_500.jpg

mth123
09-03-2011, 03:43 PM
I hope he comes up and succeeds. If the Reds can get a good return, trade him. If not, keep him. The further he is from TJ surgery, the better he will perform.

Agreed. People are too quick to write him off. Again, I would approach the 2012 rotation as if he didn't exist. If he could be dealt for real value, deal him. If not see what happens. A spot always opens up in a 5 man rotation and he just may be ready to step in and perfrom with more time away from TJ. If not, what is the harm?

Even if he's horrible, its time to shut Leake down. His innings are near maxing out.

kaldaniels
09-03-2011, 09:05 PM
Agreed. People are too quick to write him off. Again, I would approach the 2012 rotation as if he didn't exist. If he could be dealt for real value, deal him. If not see what happens. A spot always opens up in a 5 man rotation and he just may be ready to step in and perfrom with more time away from TJ. If not, what is the harm?

Even if he's horrible, its time to shut Leake down. His innings are near maxing out.

I don't understand why you are constantly beating the drum that Volquez should not even be thought about going into 2012. No one, and I mean no one, has him written into the rotation in stone. But give him a shot in Sept and in ST. We all get it though, he is not a sure thing in any manner of speaking.

WVRedsFan
09-03-2011, 09:31 PM
I think of lot of folks just don't want to go through his antics on the mound--the first inning woes, the walks, the high pitch counts which wear out the bullpen. I think every Reds fan wants him to succeed badly. The Reds need a hammer, but many can't see that ever happening and realize that the hammer has to come through free agency. They also have seen his act too often to believe he'll ever be anything but a 5th starter. All Reds fans want to win and want EV to do well, but have no confidence he will.

mth123
09-03-2011, 09:44 PM
I don't understand why you are constantly beating the drum that Volquez should not even be thought about going into 2012. No one, and I mean no one, has him written into the rotation in stone. But give him a shot in Sept and in ST. We all get it though, he is not a sure thing in any manner of speaking.

The "Drum I'm beating," is to get 5 solid guys not counting Volquez. If he's good, he'll step up and replace one who might go down or struggle or simply push the least effective to long relief. If he's not, there is no hole in the rotation due to his failure. Last year the Reds had Volquez penciled in as the ace. They named him opening day starter and did nothing to address the rotation with more certain arms even though Volquez was one of many questions for the starting staff. Walt still hasn't wiped the egg off of his face from that "brilliant" approach to winning the division, so I'm concerned about a repeat of the negligence that created this season's fiasco.

kaldaniels
09-03-2011, 10:14 PM
The "Drum I'm beating," is to get 5 solid guys not counting Volquez. If he's good, he'll step up and replace one who might go down or struggle or simply push the least effective to long relief. If he's not, there is no hole in the rotation due to his failure. Last year the Reds had Volquez penciled in as the ace. They named him opening day starter and did nothing to address the rotation with more certain arms even though Volquez was one of many questions for the starting staff. Walt still hasn't wiped the egg off of his face from that "brilliant" approach to winning the division, so I'm concerned about a repeat of the negligence that created this season's fiasco.

5 solid guys ain't happening my friend. We have 2 right now, Cueto and Leake. Anyone else we pin our hopes on has a "yeah, but..." attached to them. But bang on...

mth123
09-03-2011, 10:19 PM
5 solid guys ain't happening my friend. We have 2 right now, Cueto and Leake. Anyone else we pin our hopes on has a "yeah, but..." attached to them. But bang on...

Yep. Need to go get some. Even one would help a lot. The concern is that a few good starts and the team will count Volquez as the 3rd solid guy. I could just see this stupid regime passing on acquiring a starter based on a good September from Volquez. They did it last year.

Guacarock
09-03-2011, 11:00 PM
The front office made some mistakes last winter, but no one could have projected the extent to which the Reds rotation imploded this season. Not even the late Jeane Dixon could have foretold:

* That Bailey and Cueto would land on the DL coming right out of the chute.
* That Arroyo would suffer a bout of mono that would sap his strength all season long.
* That Wood would fall prey to the dreaded sophomore jinx.
* That Volquez would experience a fall of epic proportions, reduced from ace all the way to being sent back to Louisville to rediscover his groove.
* That Leake, arguably our most reliable starter for a long stretch of the season, would get embroiled in an embarrassing shoplifting incident and also get marooned to Louisville for the first time in his short career.

Even as reputable an authority as David Cameron from Fangraphs was asserting last December that the Reds had the best rotation in the NL Central division. We did, potentially, have the best rotation, but when even your most dependable, veteran innings-eater (Arroyo) goes down along with every one of the young guns, then you have to chalk it up to us being snakebit.

In hindsight, it's easy to blame the front office, but I have no doubt that this kind of disastrous turn of events would have sunk the seasons of nearly every franchise in baseball, not just the Reds. The exceptions: probably the Yankees, Red Sox or Phillies, but as we all know, they can buy their way out of any misfortune.

Chip R
09-03-2011, 11:14 PM
I think of lot of folks just don't want to go through his antics on the mound--the first inning woes, the walks, the high pitch counts which wear out the bullpen. I think every Reds fan wants him to succeed badly. The Reds need a hammer, but many can't see that ever happening and realize that the hammer has to come through free agency. They also have seen his act too often to believe he'll ever be anything but a 5th starter. All Reds fans want to win and want EV to do well, but have no confidence he will.

There aren't any Reds fans that like that. I'm not saying he's going to be a superstar but 2 years ago, a lot of people were really down on Cueto. Lot of walks, high pitch counts, etc. It's easy for us as fans to want to chuck these guys when they don't play up to snuff but this isn't fantasy baseball and there's no reason to get rid of guys just because they try our patience. Young starters with Volquez' stuff don't come along every day. Josh Hamilton's gone and there's nothing we can do about it. Maybe he won't be any more than a 5th starter but there's no reason not to find out.

mth123
09-03-2011, 11:25 PM
The front office made some mistakes last winter, but no one could have projected the extent to which the Reds rotation imploded this season. Not even the late Jeane Dixon could have foretold:

* That Bailey and Cueto would land on the DL coming right out of the chute.
* That Arroyo would suffer a bout of mono that would sap his strength all season long.
* That Wood would fall prey to the dreaded sophomore jinx.
* That Volquez would experience a fall of epic proportions, reduced from ace all the way to being sent back to Louisville to rediscover his groove.
* That Leake, arguably our most reliable starter for a long stretch of the season, would get embroiled in an embarrassing shoplifting incident and also get marooned to Louisville for the first time in his short career.

Even as reputable an authority as David Cameron from Fangraphs was asserting last December that the Reds had the best rotation in the NL Central division. We did, potentially, have the best rotation, but when even your most dependable, veteran innings-eater (Arroyo) goes down along with every one of the young guns, then you have to chalk it up to us being snakebit.

In hindsight, it's easy to blame the front office, but I have no doubt that this kind of disastrous turn of events would have sunk the seasons of nearly every franchise in baseball, not just the Reds. The exceptions: probably the Yankees, Red Sox or Phillies, but as we all know, they can buy their way out of any misfortune.

Its not hindsight. Plenty of people were saying the rotation needed an upgrade last winter. Plenty thought unproven kids and guys coming off of injury were a poor foundation.

I was lobbying for a deal for Matt Garza. Many said he wasn't an upgrade. He clearly is.

Guacarock
09-03-2011, 11:36 PM
Its not hindsight. Plenty of people were saying the rotation needed an upgrade last winter. Plenty thought unproven kids and guys coming off of injury were a poor foundation.

I was lobbying for a deal for Matt Garza.

As I recall, you were lobbying first and foremost for us to get a middle-of-the-order bat and a legitimate lead-off man. You might have also mentioned Garza in passing, but that was certainly not the drum you were banging the loudest back then.

Again, 20-20 vision is always possible in hindsight. I'm not trying to gig you here, just saying that none of us projected the degree to which the rotation melted in 2011, so it's not particularly fair or insightful to pin that failure on the front office at this late date.

Mind you, I'm not letting the front office get a free pass, either. There were other problems that happened in 2011 that were easier to foresee, and nothing much constructive got done to address them in advance.

WVRedsFan
09-04-2011, 12:11 AM
There aren't any Reds fans that like that. I'm not saying he's going to be a superstar but 2 years ago, a lot of people were really down on Cueto. Lot of walks, high pitch counts, etc. It's easy for us as fans to want to chuck these guys when they don't play up to snuff but this isn't fantasy baseball and there's no reason to get rid of guys just because they try our patience. Young starters with Volquez' stuff don't come along every day. Josh Hamilton's gone and there's nothing we can do about it. Maybe he won't be any more than a 5th starter but there's no reason not to find out.Chip, and in the meantime, the losing continues. I wish him the best, but hoping that Volquez comes around is simply not acceptable. Edinson Volquez's history is out there for everyone to see. It's not good. Yes, i hope he comes around, but no one, and I repeat no one expects that and that is the problem. I just hope tht the franchise doesn't get fooled into thinking he's "fixed" this time around. The annointing of him to opening day starter still sticks in my craw. There was no reason to think he deserved that and he proved it time and time again. Two trips to AAA where he dominated was all it took to make the brain trust think he was ready to be the hammer. Yeah, right. And so we do it again. How often does it take to realize the kid is fool's gold in hopes that his "stuff" is enough?

That said, I hope I'm wrong and I'll gladly eat crow if that be the case, but can anyone really have confidence in his ability to "come around?" Sorry, but I cannot.

reds1869
09-04-2011, 12:21 AM
2008 Certainly shows what he is capable of. If he gets his head right he has the potential to be very good, though I realize that is a very big if. I don't think it is time to give up on him but I also think he must be made to earn his way back into the rotation. Ifnhe can't but pitches passably, is he really so unworthy of a bullpen spot?

mth123
09-04-2011, 03:46 AM
As I recall, you were lobbying first and foremost for us to get a middle-of-the-order bat and a legitimate lead-off man. You might have also mentioned Garza in passing, but that was certainly not the drum you were banging the loudest back then.

Again, 20-20 vision is always possible in hindsight. I'm not trying to gig you here, just saying that none of us projected the degree to which the rotation melted in 2011, so it's not particularly fair or insightful to pin that failure on the front office at this late date.

Mind you, I'm not letting the front office get a free pass, either. There were other problems that happened in 2011 that were easier to foresee, and nothing much constructive got done to address them in advance.

Here is a post in the Grienke thread dated 10-22-2010

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2291162&postcount=306

Another couple from late October discussing the need to convert question marks for production in the rotation.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2291308&postcount=315

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2291509&postcount=328

Here is one from the trade proposal thread.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2292633&postcount=9

I certainly wanted help in LF and the middle of the order, but I and many others spent a lot of time discussing the need for more certainty in the rotation. If some of us internet poster goofs can see it, Walt had to be able to see it. Its either indifference or incompetence that nothing was done IMO. I think Walt has proven capable in his career. My guess is that he's just a caretaker until his deal runs out after the season. I could be wrong about Walt's future, but going into 2011 with so many question marks was clearly a bad idea (and not hindsight).

It also isn't hindsight to say if they don't addres the rotation this winter, 2012 will look just as shaky.

Reds/Flyers Fan
09-04-2011, 10:26 AM
I had hoped that we would never see EV pitch in a Reds uniform again. Unfortunately, he's back. I honestly don't care if he closes out the year 3-0 with a 2.10 ERA. It's nothing more than fool's gold with this head case and I've seen enough. But, knowing the Reds "braintrust," they're just looking for any reason to count on him as a No. 1 or No. 2 next year, and he'll be annointed 2012 Opening Day starter before Oct. 1.

BCubb2003
09-04-2011, 11:50 AM
I actually think the front office is expecting Volquez to start at the bottom. They sent him down, and kept him there several days after they could have called him up. Cueto's the ace now, and Volquez is just another guy trying to earn a spot.

cincrazy
09-04-2011, 12:27 PM
Agreed. People are too quick to write him off. Again, I would approach the 2012 rotation as if he didn't exist. If he could be dealt for real value, deal him. If not see what happens. A spot always opens up in a 5 man rotation and he just may be ready to step in and perfrom with more time away from TJ. If not, what is the harm?

Even if he's horrible, its time to shut Leake down. His innings are near maxing out.

I don't think Edinson's arm comes into play here. The guy couldn't throw strikes before TJ, and while TJ surgery can help reclaim lost velocity or sometimes even make you throw harder, it doesn't help someone locate, and that's always been his problem. His first few months in a new league where batters had never seen him led this fan base, and this organization, into thinking he was something he isn't.

Granted, the guy has the pure raw stuff to prove me wrong, no question. But he'll be 30 in a few years, and I just don't see a light bulb going on any time soon.

However, I won't discount the fact that we could spin him off and still get something of value for him. Guys that throw that hard will always get a ton of chances. I'd just rather see him get no more in Cincy.

pedro
09-04-2011, 12:36 PM
I think of lot of folks just don't want to go through his antics on the mound--the first inning woes, the walks, the high pitch counts which wear out the bullpen. I think every Reds fan wants him to succeed badly. The Reds need a hammer, but many can't see that ever happening and realize that the hammer has to come through free agency. They also have seen his act too often to believe he'll ever be anything but a 5th starter. All Reds fans want to win and want EV to do well, but have no confidence he will.

He's a gangster thug and you can't stand him so the Reds should just cut bait.

We get it.

That's not going to happen at this point so you might want to just learn to accept it and the fact that some of actually think he might still have some value to the Reds.

jojo
09-04-2011, 12:46 PM
I wonder who will walk more batters over the rest of the season-Volquez or Willis?

jojo
09-04-2011, 12:48 PM
He's a gangster thug and you can't stand him so the Reds should just cut bait.

I'm just glad he's not sporting one of those ridiculous mohawks that seem to be in vogue in sports right now.

mth123
09-04-2011, 01:09 PM
I don't think Edinson's arm comes into play here. The guy couldn't throw strikes before TJ, and while TJ surgery can help reclaim lost velocity or sometimes even make you throw harder, it doesn't help someone locate, and that's always been his problem. His first few months in a new league where batters had never seen him led this fan base, and this organization, into thinking he was something he isn't.

Granted, the guy has the pure raw stuff to prove me wrong, no question. But he'll be 30 in a few years, and I just don't see a light bulb going on any time soon.

However, I won't discount the fact that we could spin him off and still get something of value for him. Guys that throw that hard will always get a ton of chances. I'd just rather see him get no more in Cincy.

Well, Volquez command/control struggles prior to injury were nothing like we've seen since his comeback. Before arm troubles, Volquez was walking about 4.0 to 4.3 guys per 9 innings. This year that number is 5.8 per 9. Worse yet, his command in the zone is causing him to leave a lot of fat ones that get hit hard to the tune of 1.6 HR/9 as opposed to around 1.0 prior to his problems. Command/control is usually the last thing to come back from TJ and rarely before 24 months after surgery. Volquez took the mound in Cincy about 11 months after TJ. The 24 month mark didn't pass until August of 2011 when he was in AAA. His 2010 and 2011 major league numbers need to be taken with a huge grain of salt IMO.

If Volquez returns to pre-TJ levels he'd still be a guy who struggles with control like before, but would cut 1.5 BB/9 and .5 HR/9. Given his abilty to miss bats and the Reds still strong defense behind him, it would probably make him a solid major league starting pitcher (and better than at least half the guys the team is running out there now). Cutting the walks would get him deeper into games. Of course, it isn't a given that he'll be able to cut those numbers from what we've seen in 2011, but making conclusions based on 2010 and 2011 is short sighted IMO.

Again, get 5 guys who start out ahead of him and see what he does if an opportunity comes along. Trade him if you get something decent. Don't count on him. Don't give him away.

nate
09-04-2011, 01:10 PM
I'm just glad he's not sporting one of those ridiculous mohawks that seem to be in vogue in sports right now.

Dude, don't harsh the Gomeshawk!

:cool:

_Sir_Charles_
09-04-2011, 01:33 PM
The front office made some mistakes last winter, but no one could have projected the extent to which the Reds rotation imploded this season. Not even the late Jeane Dixon could have foretold:

* That Bailey and Cueto would land on the DL coming right out of the chute.
* That Arroyo would suffer a bout of mono that would sap his strength all season long.
* That Wood would fall prey to the dreaded sophomore jinx.
* That Volquez would experience a fall of epic proportions, reduced from ace all the way to being sent back to Louisville to rediscover his groove.
* That Leake, arguably our most reliable starter for a long stretch of the season, would get embroiled in an embarrassing shoplifting incident and also get marooned to Louisville for the first time in his short career.

Even as reputable an authority as David Cameron from Fangraphs was asserting last December that the Reds had the best rotation in the NL Central division. We did, potentially, have the best rotation, but when even your most dependable, veteran innings-eater (Arroyo) goes down along with every one of the young guns, then you have to chalk it up to us being snakebit.

In hindsight, it's easy to blame the front office, but I have no doubt that this kind of disastrous turn of events would have sunk the seasons of nearly every franchise in baseball, not just the Reds. The exceptions: probably the Yankees, Red Sox or Phillies, but as we all know, they can buy their way out of any misfortune.

Fantastic post. Exactly as I feel. I would've liked to have seen them pull the plug quicker on Wood & Volquez (mainly Edinson), but considering the depth we had going into the season...snakebit is the word I've been using most all season long.

RANDY IN INDY
09-04-2011, 01:54 PM
Wood got hit hard in Indianapolis last night. I was there.

Reds1
09-04-2011, 03:43 PM
Who does Volquez replace in the rotation the rest of the way? Does DW have a shot to make this rotation next year. I'd like to see EV pitch. He has too good of stuff not to give him a shot the rest of the way.

mth123
09-04-2011, 04:25 PM
Who does Volquez replace in the rotation the rest of the way? Does DW have a shot to make this rotation next year. I'd like to see EV pitch. He has too good of stuff not to give him a shot the rest of the way.

Mike Leake is at about 158 IP counting his AAA stint. One more start and he's shut down.

cincrazy
09-04-2011, 04:29 PM
He's a gangster thug and you can't stand him so the Reds should just cut bait.

We get it.

That's not going to happen at this point so you might want to just learn to accept it and the fact that some of actually think he might still have some value to the Reds.

Oh come on, Pedro. Who called him a gangster thug? He hasn't produced. Period. End of discussion.

cincrazy
09-04-2011, 04:30 PM
Well, Volquez command/control struggles prior to injury were nothing like we've seen since his comeback. Before arm troubles, Volquez was walking about 4.0 to 4.3 guys per 9 innings. This year that number is 5.8 per 9. Worse yet, his command in the zone is causing him to leave a lot of fat ones that get hit hard to the tune of 1.6 HR/9 as opposed to around 1.0 prior to his problems. Command/control is usually the last thing to come back from TJ and rarely before 24 months after surgery. Volquez took the mound in Cincy about 11 months after TJ. The 24 month mark didn't pass until August of 2011 when he was in AAA. His 2010 and 2011 major league numbers need to be taken with a huge grain of salt IMO.

If Volquez returns to pre-TJ levels he'd still be a guy who struggles with control like before, but would cut 1.5 BB/9 and .5 HR/9. Given his abilty to miss bats and the Reds still strong defense behind him, it would probably make him a solid major league starting pitcher (and better than at least half the guys the team is running out there now). Cutting the walks would get him deeper into games. Of course, it isn't a given that he'll be able to cut those numbers from what we've seen in 2011, but making conclusions based on 2010 and 2011 is short sighted IMO.

Again, get 5 guys who start out ahead of him and see what he does if an opportunity comes along. Trade him if you get something decent. Don't count on him. Don't give him away.

Good post. Can't really disagree with anything you said.

pedro
09-04-2011, 04:42 PM
Oh come on, Pedro. Who called him a gangster thug? He hasn't produced. Period. End of discussion.

Ever since he did that rap video there are some posters here who turned on him and constantly refer to his "antics" and "attitude" and have called him a "head case", despite the fact that he's never caused any problems and by all accounts has taken his demotion to the minors in stride. Seems to me that some of this is born out of something more than his on field performance. If he was a farm boy from NC who talked about his faith in the lord a lot I'm sure he'd get cut a lot more slack by some posters.

BCubb2003
09-04-2011, 05:11 PM
In interviews, Volquez comes across as bright and insightful. If anything, his problem might be that he thinks too much on the mound.

757690
09-04-2011, 05:14 PM
Mike Leake is at about 158 IP counting his AAA stint. One more start and he's shut down.

Sounds about right.

I heard Kelch say the Reds plan on starting Leake twice more and then have Volquez replace him in the rotation. I believe he said they don't want him to go above 170 innings this year if possible.

nate
09-04-2011, 06:31 PM
Ever since he did that rap video there are some posters here who turned on him and constantly refer to his "antics" and "attitude" and have called him a "head case", despite the fact that he's never caused any problems and by all accounts has taken his demotion to the minors in stride. Seems to me that some of this is born out of something more than his on field performance. If he was a farm boy from NC who talked about his faith in the lord a lot I'm sure he'd get cut a lot more slack by some posters.

I think the last bit is as hyperbolic as what you're accusing "others" of.

pedro
09-04-2011, 06:40 PM
nm

REDREAD
09-06-2011, 12:16 PM
I am not Volquez's biggest fan, but it's a good idea to call him up and rest Leake.

People are clamouring to give Sappelt, Frasier, and the other AAA guys playing time. However, it should be a higher priority to try to get Volquez back on track.
He's not going to be an ace next year, but let's try some baby steps here.
If he could hold the #5 slot on our team or someone else's team, then he's a useful piece.

If he comes up and stinks again, his value can't possibly get any lower.
IIRC, this was his last option year. The Reds might be facing the choice next spring of whether to keep him or send him away for very little (not unlike how we picked up Phillips -- not saying it will bite us but it's a similiar situation).

bucksfan2
09-06-2011, 12:24 PM
I am not Volquez's biggest fan, but it's a good idea to call him up and rest Leake.

People are clamouring to give Sappelt, Frasier, and the other AAA guys playing time. However, it should be a higher priority to try to get Volquez back on track.
He's not going to be an ace next year, but let's try some baby steps here.
If he could hold the #5 slot on our team or someone else's team, then he's a useful piece.

If he comes up and stinks again, his value can't possibly get any lower.
IIRC, this was his last option year. The Reds might be facing the choice next spring of whether to keep him or send him away for very little (not unlike how we picked up Phillips -- not saying it will bite us but it's a similiar situation).

Shutting down Leake is probably the right idea. I would imagine that next season he should be able to go the entire season without needing to be shut down. Personally I would like to see Wood get the extra starts instead of Volquez. I like Wood's Reds upside much more than Volquez. I just don't think Volquez ever puts it together as a Red. He may be the classic change of scenery case.

I hope Volquez does well to increase his trade value. The last thing I want to happen is for him to pitch himself into a multi year extension like the Reds visited last year.

cincrazy
09-06-2011, 01:15 PM
Shutting down Leake is probably the right idea. I would imagine that next season he should be able to go the entire season without needing to be shut down. Personally I would like to see Wood get the extra starts instead of Volquez. I like Wood's Reds upside much more than Volquez. I just don't think Volquez ever puts it together as a Red. He may be the classic change of scenery case.

I hope Volquez does well to increase his trade value. The last thing I want to happen is for him to pitch himself into a multi year extension like the Reds visited last year.

I'm with you here. I'd much rather see Wood get the starts. I know he's struggled this year, and got shelled in AAA not too long ago, but we need to give him another opportunity. I don't think his performance last year was 100% fluke based. He may have been our most dependable starter last year for a stretch, and I'd much rather get a look at him than Edinson.

But I'm starting to cool down on the idea of Edinson getting more starts. I hated it at first, but if it keeps Leake from acquiring more innings and builds up whatever trade value EV may have in the offseason, I can live with it.

Rojo
09-06-2011, 02:12 PM
I wish him the best, but hoping that Volquez comes around is simply not acceptable. Edinson Volquez's history is out there for everyone to see. It's not good.

Did I hallucinate that 17-6, 3.21 ERA, 200-K season?

TRF
09-06-2011, 02:18 PM
Oh fudge. When will they learn. He is always lights out in Louisville, and then the FO thinks he's Cy Young. He'll probably have a couple of good starts and then go back to his norm, thus ruining his trade value while Dusty rolls him out every five days in hopes he gets it back.

17 games as a Louisville Bat over 2 seasons. In 2010 it was injury rehab. His first time at AAA this year... he kinda stunk, but was recalled out of necessity. This was his first extended stay at Louisville and the results were mixed early on. He has tweaked his delivery, making it a bit more like Cueto's.

He has tremendous stuff. There is no reason to send him packing.

lollipopcurve
09-06-2011, 02:44 PM
He has tremendous stuff.

Bottom line.

Still relatively young, still cheap. Reds should not be discarding pitchers like that, unless it's to get guaranteed rotation talent for multiple years.

mbgrayson
09-06-2011, 02:57 PM
Edinson's 2011 numbers in AAA don't look too bad:

4 wins, 2 losses, 13 games started, 87.1 innings (Average of 6 and 2/3 per start), 83 Ks, 29 BBs, 72 hits, a 2.37 ERA and a 1.16 WHIP, a .223 batting average against, and allowed 5 HRs (.51 HR/9 innings pitched).


Now admitedly this is AAA, but Volquez certainly pitched well enough in Louisville to get starts in September with the Reds.

I am pretty optimisitic that as EV regains some command and control post TJ, that he will be a notch or two better for the Reds next season. He may not be a #1 starter, but if he is a decent #4 or even #5 starter, we will improve our rotation a good bit next year.

Kc61
09-06-2011, 02:58 PM
I'm with you here. I'd much rather see Wood get the starts. I know he's struggled this year, and got shelled in AAA not too long ago, but we need to give him another opportunity. I don't think his performance last year was 100% fluke based. He may have been our most dependable starter last year for a stretch, and I'd much rather get a look at him than Edinson.

But I'm starting to cool down on the idea of Edinson getting more starts. I hated it at first, but if it keeps Leake from acquiring more innings and builds up whatever trade value EV may have in the offseason, I can live with it.

I'd go the opposite way. Wood, so far, is a fly ball pitcher. His GO/AO ratios demonstrate this (lifetime 0.64). I think he is talented, but barring a big turnaround, he's not well suited to GABP.

Volquez has a lifetime 1.23 GO/AO ratio, indicating a modest slant toward throwing ground balls. Put that together with his K abiity (460 in 473 lifetime innings), you have a good GABP pitcher if he can get his command back.

I'd rather invest the innings in Volquez. Keep in mind also that it takes some pitchers time to return from TJ surgery. The Reds may have rushed Volquez and this may have hurt his effectiveness.

Rojo
09-06-2011, 03:03 PM
I'd go the opposite way.

Me too. Let Wood get shiny in Louisville and dangle him.

cincrazy
09-06-2011, 03:13 PM
I'd go the opposite way. Wood, so far, is a fly ball pitcher. His GO/AO ratios demonstrate this (lifetime 0.64). I think he is talented, but barring a big turnaround, he's not well suited to GABP.

Volquez has a lifetime 1.23 GO/AO ratio, indicating a modest slant toward throwing ground balls. Put that together with his K abiity (460 in 473 lifetime innings), you have a good GABP pitcher if he can get his command back.

I'd rather invest the innings in Volquez. Keep in mind also that it takes some pitchers time to return from TJ surgery. The Reds may have rushed Volquez and this may have hurt his effectiveness.

I disagree with you on that point. I don't think he was rushed. 12 months is standard operating procedure as it pertains to returning from TJ surgery. Maybe he's still not fully recovered from the operation, none of us really know, but I don't think the Reds rushed him. If they did, most other organizations are responsible for the same. Jordan Zimmerman came back on a similar timetable and has been downright nasty this year.

Kc61
09-06-2011, 03:21 PM
I disagree with you on that point. I don't think he was rushed. 12 months is standard operating procedure as it pertains to returning from TJ surgery. Maybe he's still not fully recovered from the operation, none of us really know, but I don't think the Reds rushed him. If they did, most other organizations are responsible for the same. Jordan Zimmerman came back on a similar timetable and has been downright nasty this year.

I'm just not sure that it's universally true that a pitcher recovers in 12 months.

Keep in mind that EV somehow was annointed the starter in the playoffs in 2010. I certainly thought that was optimistic.

In any event, whether the Reds "rushed" him, he just may not have been ready. I'm glad that they showed patience with EV late this season and gave him a bunch of AAA time. Hopefully it will help.

TRF
09-06-2011, 03:25 PM
Liriano didn't recover that quick. I think 12 months is the baseline minimum timeframe. Clearly it took EV longer.

cincrazy
09-06-2011, 10:44 PM
I'm just not sure that it's universally true that a pitcher recovers in 12 months.

Keep in mind that EV somehow was annointed the starter in the playoffs in 2010. I certainly thought that was optimistic.

In any event, whether the Reds "rushed" him, he just may not have been ready. I'm glad that they showed patience with EV late this season and gave him a bunch of AAA time. Hopefully it will help.

Well, I'll give you this, they were expecting too much of him too soon. To pretend that he's an ace is silly, coming off the injury and given his prior track record.