PDA

View Full Version : Choose Your Top 5 Reds Of All-Time



Ron Madden
09-05-2011, 01:39 AM
http://apps.facebook.com/fanappz/favoriteFive/name?id=12953&choose=true

Vote now!!!

Here's my list. What's your's?

Frank Robinson
Johnny Bench
Joe Morgan
Barry Larkin
Pete Rose

fearofpopvol1
09-05-2011, 03:31 AM
http://apps.facebook.com/fanappz/favoriteFive/name?id=12953&choose=true

Vote now!!!

Here's my list. What's your's?

Frank Robinson
Johnny Bench
Joe Morgan
Barry Larkin
Pete Rose

Looks perfect to me. Technically, Griffey Jr. had a better career than Rose, Bench and Larkin, but he obviously didn't spend his prime years here, so it would be tough to put him ahead of those guys.

Ron Madden
09-05-2011, 04:01 AM
John Erardi and Greg Rhodes made a list of the top 100 Reds of all time.
Marty Brennamen helped them narrow the list down to the top 20.
It will be interesting to see their top 5.

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2011/09/04/chat-the-top-100-greatest-reds/

mth123
09-05-2011, 08:42 AM
They counted them down in a slideshow.

1. Morgan
2T. Bench
2T. Rose
4. Robinson
5. Larkin

Red in Chicago
09-05-2011, 09:19 AM
Rose
Bench
Morgan
Robinson
Larkin

dougdirt
09-05-2011, 09:20 AM
They counted them down is a slideshow.

1. Morgan
2T. Bench
2T. Rose
4. Robinson
5. Larkin

They got it wrong IMO. Joe Morgan was great. But he was a Red for 8 seasons. Those 8 seasons were fantastic. His OPS+ as a Red was 147. But those 8 fantastic seasons (well, 6 were truly fantastic and the last two were not on par with those first 6) don't add up to being better than the 17 Bench put out. I am not even sure they are fully on par with the 10 that Frank Robinson had as a Red.

Cedric
09-05-2011, 09:21 AM
Larkin
Rose
Morgan
Davis
Bench

PickOff
09-05-2011, 10:09 AM
1. Johnny Bench
2. Pete Rose
3. Barry Larkin
4. Frank Robinson
5. Joe Morgan

Years with the Reds counts in my book.

HokieRed
09-05-2011, 10:21 AM
!. Robinson
2. Bench
3. Morgan
4. Rose
5. Here I have trouble: Perez, Pinson, Larkin.
For me, the clear break is between the first four, in some order, and #5.

kaldaniels
09-05-2011, 10:43 AM
Adam Dunn
Chris Denorfia
Chris Heisey
Zach Stewart
Edwin Encarnacion

Am I missing anyone? Oh, and challenge me on any of these and this thread is going 20 pages. :D

kaldaniels
09-05-2011, 10:45 AM
On a serious note...

Bench
Rose
Morgan
Robinson
Larkin

With free agency it will be hard for anyone else to crack into the top 5. Bruce has a chance. He could have 10 seasons with the Reds under his belt when it is done.

westofyou
09-05-2011, 10:48 AM
Bench
Rose
McPhee
Larkin
Robinson

kaldaniels
09-05-2011, 10:55 AM
Bench
Rose
McPhee
Larkin
Robinson

Thinking outside the box with McPhee. I don't agree but interesting nonetheless.

This page could help the thread. (There's a pitching one too if interested, but for the Reds, I doubt it is necessary)

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CIN/leaders_bat.shtml

mace
09-05-2011, 10:56 AM
Shouldn't Edd Roush and Ernie Lombardi at least be in the conversation? Roush (18 years) had a career OPS+ 10 points higher than Larkin, and by all accounts played an excellent center field. Lombardi (10 years) had the same OPS+ as Bench. Obviously, he didn't compare defensively. But still.

Also--just sayin'--Bucky Walters had seasons of 27, 22 and 23 wins, twice leading the league in ERA as he carried the club into the World Series.

That said, there's no getting around Rose, Bench, Robinson and probably Morgan (the only caveat being his tenure).

mth123
09-05-2011, 11:00 AM
They got it wrong IMO. Joe Morgan was great. But he was a Red for 8 seasons. Those 8 seasons were fantastic. His OPS+ as a Red was 147. But those 8 fantastic seasons (well, 6 were truly fantastic and the last two were not on par with those first 6) don't add up to being better than the 17 Bench put out. I am not even sure they are fully on par with the 10 that Frank Robinson had as a Red.

I think its wrong too. I think Morgan is getting extra credit because his big years were all in a row and happened while the Reds were one of the super teams in baseball history. I took a quick look at several guys based on OPS+ for a six year period and Morgan was barely the best red ever based on that criteria.




Player Years 1 2 3 4 5 6 Ave
Joe Morgan 72 - 77 149 154 159 169 186 138 159.1666667
Frank Robby 59 - 65 152 169 163 172 133 160 158.1666667
George Foster 76 - 81 150 165 151 155 131 150 150.3333333
Edd Roush 17 - 22 159 151 146 141 143 131 145.1666667
Tony Perez 68 - 73 124 140 158 120 145 159 141
Pete Rose 68 - 73 152 158 125 130 134 138 139.5
Big Klu 52 - 57 146 143 167 147 132 97 138.6666667
The Schnozz 35 - 40 148 140 130 152 119 137 137.6666667
Eric Davis 86 - 91 143 155 139 152 123 105 136.1666667
Johnny Bench 70 - 75 141 107 166 119 143 140 136
Jake Beckley 99 - 04 132 128 130 139 126 144 133.1666667
Barry Larkin 91 - 96 143 132 124 107 133 154 132.1666667
Adam Dunn 03 - 08 116 146 140 114 136 132 130.6666667
Jr. Griffey 00 - 05 133 124 103 145 122 145 128.6666667
Sr. Griffey 76 - 81 140 127 113 129 127 120 126
Vada Pinson 59 - 64 128 118 130 114 142 110 123.6666667
Frank McCormick 39 - 44 130 131 106 111 119 143 123.3333333


But taking the best six years would put Morgan behind Robinson




Player 1 2 3 4 5 6 Ave
Frank Robby 172 169 163 160 152 151 161.1666667
Joe Morgan 186 169 159 154 149 138 159.1666667
George Foster 165 155 151 150 150 139 151.6666667
Edd Roush 159 151 148 146 143 141 148
Big Klu 167 147 146 143 132 124 143.1666667
Pete Rose 158 152 141 138 134 132 142.5
Johnny Bench 166 143 141 140 133 129 142
Eric Davis 155 152 143 139 139 123 141.8333333
Tony Perez 159 158 145 140 124 124 141.6666667
The Schnozz 152 148 140 137 131 130 139.6666667
Barry Larkin 154 143 138 134 133 132 139
Adam Dunn 146 140 136 136 132 130 136.6666667
Jake Beckley 144 139 132 130 128 128 133.5
Jr. Griffey 145 144 133 124 122 119 131.1666667
Sr. Griffey 140 129 127 127 120 119 127
Vada Pinson 142 130 128 127 118 114 126.5
Frank McCormick 143 131 130 119 113 111 124.5


Guys like Robinson, Bench, Rose etc could put a few more seasons over 120 OPS+. Morgan was a great defender. but so was Bench. Rose did the job wherever needed (even won a couple Gold Gloves in the OF) and Robinson was a better bat for longer. I'm not a big SB guy, but Morgan's steals need to be factored in. He had many at a high success rate and he didn't just accumulate stats, but ran effectively at the right time. I can see the argument for Morgan, but the added seasons would get more weight with me.

I'd probably go with Bench or Rose (tough call). Robinson would rank ahead of Morgam as well.

RANDY IN INDY
09-05-2011, 11:13 AM
Rose
Bench
Robinson
Morgan
Perez

followed by

Larkin
Roush
Kluszewski
Pinson

Chip R
09-05-2011, 11:14 AM
Adam Dunn
Chris Denorfia
Chris Heisey
Zach Stewart
Edwin Encarnacion

Am I missing anyone? Oh, and challenge me on any of these and this thread is going 20 pages. :D

Javier Valentin.

RANDY IN INDY
09-05-2011, 11:14 AM
Javier Valentin.

Of course, on mustache alone. But what about Tim Hummel?

mth123
09-05-2011, 11:25 AM
Rose
Bench
Robinson
Morgan
Perez

followed by

Larkin
Roush
Kluszewski
Pinson

I think that's how I've got them too. If we're going on 6 years runs of excellence like the list seems to be, Joey Votto will be in the conversation when his contract runs out.

Scrap Irony
09-05-2011, 11:57 AM
1. Bench
2. Robinson
3. Morgan
4. Larkin
5. Rose

Bench gets extra credit for playing his entire career in Cincinnati, redefining his position defensively, and being the host of the Baseball Bunch.

Robinson receives extra credit for being late 60's cool, especially with that afro going. But that was in Baltimore. He also gets extra credit for taking a young Pete Rose under his wing.

Morgan receives extra credit for playing with a really small glove and positional scarcity. He loses points everytime he talks on ESPN about on-base percentage and taking pitches.

Larkin receives extra credit for playing in Cincinnati every year of his career. He loses most of that extra credit for complaining about it almost every year. But he earns more extra credit for being a solid analyst for Baseball Tonight (when they chose to use him).

Rose receives extra credit for a cool, if demeaning nickname. His quote about playing baseball in a gasoline suit is also extra credit worthy, as is his managerial tenure, if only because of the Pallone bump. He loses all of that and more because he bet on baseball and lied about it.

RedsManRick
09-05-2011, 12:02 PM
Put me on the ________ bandwagon.

Rose
Bench
Larkin
Robinson
Morgan

No need to overthink it in my book. These guys did the most to help the Reds win baseball games during their tenure.

FWIW, here's the top 30 Reds in fWAR:


Rank Name WAR
1 Pete Rose 86.8
2 Johnny Bench 81.6
3 Barry Larkin 70.6
4 Frank Robinson 65.9
5 Joe Morgan 61.1
6 Tony Perez 56.8
7 Vada Pinson 49.2
8 Heinie Groh 45.2
9 George Foster 45.2
10 Dave Concepcion 44.8
11 Edd Roush 44.4
12 Jose Rijo 34.4
13 Lonny Frey 32.0
14 Frank McCormick 31.7
15 Ted Kluszewski 31.2
16 Eric Davis 30.2
17 Ernie Lombardi 28.4
18 Mario Soto 26.9
19 Ken Griffey 26.7
20 Cy Seymour 23.2
21 Dan Driessen 22.9
22 Curt Walker 22.9
23 Adam Dunn 22.6
24 DatDudeDP 22.6
25 Miller Huggins 22.5
26 Ed Bailey 22.4
27 Joey Votto 22.3
28 Aaron Harang 22.0
29 Reggie Sanders 21.8
30 Mike Mitchell 21.6

Two more seasons like this and Votto will be in the top 15.

mace
09-05-2011, 12:33 PM
Put me on the ________ bandwagon.

Rose
Bench
Larkin
Robinson
Morgan

No need to overthink it in my book. These guys did the most to help the Reds win baseball games during their tenure.

FWIW, here's the top 30 Reds in fWAR:


Rank Name WAR
1 Pete Rose 86.8
2 Johnny Bench 81.6
3 Barry Larkin 70.6
4 Frank Robinson 65.9
5 Joe Morgan 61.1
6 Tony Perez 56.8
7 Vada Pinson 49.2
8 Heinie Groh 45.2
9 George Foster 45.2
10 Dave Concepcion 44.8
11 Edd Roush 44.4
12 Jose Rijo 34.4
13 Lonny Frey 32.0
14 Frank McCormick 31.7
15 Ted Kluszewski 31.2
16 Eric Davis 30.2
17 Ernie Lombardi 28.4
18 Mario Soto 26.9
19 Ken Griffey 26.7
20 Cy Seymour 23.2
21 Dan Driessen 22.9
22 Curt Walker 22.9
23 Adam Dunn 22.6
24 DatDudeDP 22.6
25 Miller Huggins 22.5
26 Ed Bailey 22.4
27 Joey Votto 22.3
28 Aaron Harang 22.0
29 Reggie Sanders 21.8
30 Mike Mitchell 21.6

Two more seasons like this and Votto will be in the top 15.

Left out Bucky Walters at 31.2.

RedsManRick
09-05-2011, 01:23 PM
Left out Bucky Walters at 31.2.

Not sure where you got that number from. As far as I can tell, Fangraphs doesn't calculate pitcher WAR going back that far apparently.

BCubb2003
09-05-2011, 01:27 PM
Adam Dunn
Chris Denorfia
Chris Heisey
Zach Stewart
Edwin Encarnacion

Am I missing anyone? Oh, and challenge me on any of these and this thread is going 20 pages. :D

Christy Mathewson
Jim Thorpe
Wally Pipp
Deion Sanders
Josh Hamilton

RedsBaron
09-05-2011, 01:37 PM
The debate seems not to be who are the five but in what order they should be.
I am a believer in giving "extra credit" for great seasons as they can be the difference between a good season and a pennant.
1. Bench, just barely ahead of....
2. Rose
3. Robinson
4. Morgan
5. Larkin

westofyou
09-05-2011, 01:38 PM
Christy Mathewson
Jim Thorpe
Wally Pipp
Deion Sanders
Josh Hamilton
Charles Comiskey
Mike "King" Kelly
Buck Ewing
Al Simmons
Hal Chase

nemesis
09-05-2011, 01:54 PM
Robinson

Rose

Morgan

Bench

Big Klu

Dan
09-05-2011, 02:02 PM
Adam Dunn
Chris Denorfia
Chris Heisey
Zach Stewart
Edwin Encarnacion

Am I missing anyone? Oh, and challenge me on any of these and this thread is going 20 pages. :D

Jim Coombs, of course.

Captain Hook
09-05-2011, 04:35 PM
http://apps.facebook.com/fanappz/favoriteFive/name?id=12953&choose=true

Vote now!!!

Here's my list. What's your's?

Frank Robinson
Johnny Bench
Joe Morgan
Barry Larkin
Pete Rose

This is what I'd say.

It's more fun for me to name the top 5 that I actually remember playing.Having been born in 1975 I can't honestly say that I remember too many guys from the BRM or anyone before that time other then a couple toward the end of their carrer.So here's my top 5 from about 1985-present day.

1.Larkin
2.Griffey Jr.
3.Votto
4.Eric Davis
5.Dunn

Wheelhouse
09-05-2011, 07:33 PM
Rose
Bench
Morgan
Robinson
Votto

westofyou
09-05-2011, 07:41 PM
Tony Mullane
Noodles Hahn
Eppa Rixey
Bucky Walters
Jim Maloney

mace
09-05-2011, 08:26 PM
Not sure where you got that number from. As far as I can tell, Fangraphs doesn't calculate pitcher WAR going back that far apparently.

Oh, didn't know where you were gleaning it from, but saw that you were including pitchers. That explains the discrepancy.

I got the Walters number from baseballreference.com.

HokieRed
09-05-2011, 08:48 PM
Maloney's Cincinnati WAR, as Baseball Reference calculates it, is even higher than Walters'. It's 35.1. IMO, if he hadn't been injured, there'd be little doubt he should be in the top 5. Easily the most dominating Reds pitcher I have seen in the last 55 years.

cincrazy
09-05-2011, 09:11 PM
Johnny Bench
Pete Rose
Frank Robinson
Barry Larkin
Joe Morgan

Ron Madden
09-06-2011, 03:09 AM
The Greatest Red You Never Heard Of. An interesting story by John Erardi:

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20110904/SPT04/309040051/-Greatest-Red-You-Never-Heard-

cumberlandreds
09-06-2011, 07:50 AM
Robinson
Bench
Rose
Morgan
Larkin & Eric Davis a tie. Too hard for me to choose between the two.

Reds/Flyers Fan
09-06-2011, 11:38 AM
Rose
Robinson
Bench
Morgan
Roush

Honorable mention: Kluszewski, Davis, Perez, Pinson, Lombardi, Larkin, Votto

Best players who at one time played for the Reds but defined career elsewhere: Griffey, Hamilton, Seaver, Hoffman

bucksfan2
09-06-2011, 11:43 AM
Larkin
Votto
Hamilton
Rijo
Dibble

Scrap Irony
09-06-2011, 03:59 PM
Best players who at one time played for the Reds but defined career elsewhere: Griffey, Hamilton, Seaver, Hoffman

Christy Mathewson says hello.

lollipopcurve
09-06-2011, 04:13 PM
It's position players all the way, that much I know.

Reds/Flyers Fan
09-06-2011, 05:17 PM
Christy Mathewson says hello.

Yes, definitely add him. I forgot he played for the Redlegs.

And I'd add Paul O'Neil to the list of players who played here but defined their career elsewhere.

Johnny Footstool
09-06-2011, 09:18 PM
Bench
Morgan
Rose
Larkin
Eric Davis

westofyou
09-06-2011, 10:36 PM
And I'd add Paul O'Neil to the list of players who played here but defined their career elsewhere.

Joe Adcock
Hank Sauer
Eddie Joost
Tommy Harper
Dodie Paskert
Ken Williams
King Kelly
Sam Crawford
Mike Caldwell
Hal McRae

VR
09-07-2011, 12:08 AM
Foster
Foster
Foster
Davis
Bench
Soto
Griffey

My 9 year old.....

Chapman
Votto
Phillips
Rolen/Jay Bruce (He's 9, he gets the tie)
Janish